PDD-22-7593

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1. 1Jul 12, 2022
   Board of County CommissionersP100Public hearingApproved

   Approved minutes

   Approved as part of the Public Hearing Consent Agenda.

   Open this item →▶ Play from 59:01
   ▶ 59:0136m

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   59:01P one hundred.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   59:02Item P one hundred was published in the Tampa Times on May eighteenth, twenty twenty two.

   Denise

   59:07Oh, we're back to uh I feel like I've already talked about this one today.

   59:14Okay, so P uh Denise Hernandez Planning and Development. So P100 is PDD twenty-two seven five nine three. It's uh for Northridge M PUD. I do want to start with some housekeeping items. Um It was brought to my attention. I thought

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   59:29I robbed the

   Denise

   59:30there were some ex parte communications that happened over a year ago, some of them. Um, I will provide those to the clerk's office. They were not part of the agenda packet, so the expertise were with Commissioner Mariano in Um June of twenty twenty one, Commissioner Oakley in June of twenty twenty one, Commissioner Starkey in June of twenty twenty one, and Commissioner Fitzpatrick in August of twenty twenty-one. You do have one in your agenda packet that's for Commissioner Mariano on June fourteenth of twenty twenty two. Just wanted to state that before I

   1:00:00got into the presentation. So the subject location is located in northwest Pasco County on the south side of County Line Road. County Line Road North, approximately two miles west of the Suncoast Parkway.

   1:00:16Uh the current zoning districts are M P U D A C and ER. This is the MPUD is part of an expired MPUD that was called Woodfield, and that one was approved for 78 single-family dwelling units. To the north of it, you've got County Line Road North, Hernando County to the north. You've got a subdivision by the name of West Preston Woods, right across the parcel entry, and then to the east you've got um a RV

   1:00:46resort that's called Tropic Tropics R V Resort. It's one of those encore RV resorts. If the area looks familiar, you know that area to the east of that is your Canon mine of the actual parcel. So that's that's that area for familiarity. It's approximately 178.15 acres.

   1:01:13You actually approved a comp plan um modification, a comp plan amendment large scale to P D um with sub-area policy for Northridge just a few minutes ago. The applicant is requesting to rezone the property to MPUD to allow up to 40,000 square feet of commercial. And 770 single-family detached units on that acreage, as I stated. The applicant is also proposing to include the

   1:01:43possibility of a land use equivalency matrix to allow the potential future exchange of 70 single-family detached dwellings into 20,000 square feet of commercial use.

   1:01:56Within your request, uh, there's also some deviations or some variations that are being requested from the land development code. Um, those include variation from 805.6 for restrictions to post-development wetlands and upland buffers within residential lots. This will allow the applicant, the actual developer I'm sorry, to enter into a reciprocal easement and maintenance agreement agreement. This is specifically particularly for the non-residential portion, which is not going to be under an HOA or a C D D. Also, the applicant

   1:02:27is asking for a variation from LDC 905.2 C1G for the use of non-invasive plant materials to allow the use of non-invasive existing vegetation. And that would be part of the buffer needs in 905.2. Additionally, the applicant is asking for a variation from 9016 D11, street design and dedication requirements, to allow an emergency exit on Normandew Street. Normandiew Street has residential dwelling units on it, so the variation

   1:02:57will be less disruptive to the folks who live on Normandew Street. Can you

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:03:03say that again?

   Denise

   1:03:04They are. Yes, I'll show you the map where Normandu Street is. So there's actual dri driveways that exist on Normandie. So that would just be um e emergency access only. It's not gonna be a principal access through Normandie. So that's a variation that they're requesting. Who the county's asking that or the applicant is asking that and staff has uh done an analysis and found that it is um that it's fine.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:03:32Well

   Denise

   1:03:33So this is the master plan as we saw earlier. The proposal is for commercial along the frontage of County Line Road.

   1:03:45The price hole is currently unimproved, it's in the north market area. I think I've talked about the variations already.

   1:03:55The um the actual access to the property is from County Line Road North.

   1:04:02And it's a county-maintained Arturo Road with 160 feet of right-of-way. And the applicant is coordinating with Pasco and Hernando County for necessary road improvements. I did discuss the Loom, the land use equivalency matrix, potential uh to exchange 70 single-family detached units for 20,000 square feet of commercial. This was presented to the Planning Commission in Dade City. There was some opposition. Um based on the opposition, the applicant agreed to relocate roadway access to the northwest side of the subject area

   1:04:32interconnecting with Car Carlesimo Avenue. It was heard on the regular agenda of the Planning Commission and the Planning Commission voted to recommend the item unanimously with conditions as included in your agenda packet. I think I have discussed most of the items. There are some findings of fact as Commissioner Mariano stated when we were doing the comp plan regarding um the availability of water and sewer to the area that you know that there's conditions that state

   1:05:02that this will not happen until that occurs. So I'm here for any questions that you may have on the matter and uh the applicant and the applicants team are here as well.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:05:14So yeah, I have some questions, but um In this day and age when we're trying to have as much connectivity as possible, I'm really surprised that you're okay to have everybody come in off of County Line Road. Why would we not have them

   Denise

   1:05:31have that act

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:05:31that

   Denise

   1:05:32so it's it is it is an access but it's emergency access only. I may have some folks I I don't know who is exactly on the on WebEx but I may have some folks available that can speak to that matter. Um the actual analysis was found that it would be more disruptive and it would be easier traffic circulation to not go through that actual uh nor Normandiew road. Okay, I see one driveway. Yeah there there

   1:06:02are actually several.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:06:04See I'm looking here there's first house on the right, there's a driveway. There's a there's a couple RVs there. People live in there in the RVs? And then there's something in the

   Denise

   1:06:15Well yeah, you you know you see a lot of a lot of different things in leisure hills in that subdivision. Is that allowed? It's not you could certainly cannot live in an RV. Um there is a pr uh a uh provision in the land development code that allows guest RV parking for a total of ten days, um once every six months. Okay, and then don't get too many requests

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:06:37for that, so So then the lot just south of it on the corner of Normandu and Oxenham, their driveway is on Oxenham. And that is the only driveway Between Oxenham And the property And I think you know, good planning is that you have multiple ways to enter into a property. So I'm confused.

   Denise

   1:07:09Perhaps you can allow the applicant who also did um the transportation study to to speak on that matter. And again, I've got some folks on WebEx that can address that item as well.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:07:31Barbara Well Height, sixty three twenty seven, Grand Boulevard for the applicant, which is Northridge, which is also Reaper Development. A couple of things. Um one was the amount of square footage now that we're at the M PUD stage. I can tell you that we did include a loom. And that loom as as Denise said is estimated to produce twenty thousand square feet. um of additional Of additional commercials. So the number is really sixty. And we're look we've been looking at our numbers and our looks like our plans

   1:08:01will actually produce about six hundred and eighty-two units. So we will be having a difference of eighty-eight units that we can use for more commercial.

   1:08:12The condition um that you were referencing, Commissioner Mariano, is condition thirty-seven B. I think that's a good idea. So that one would need to be modified. Thirty seven B has the language um Эф. The 40 foot lots are rear loaded. Excuse me, so in addition, excuse me, this is the language it would be stricken. Um in addition any rear loaded lots with alleys shall qualify for traditional neighborhood design rate

   1:08:42and accounting for mobility fee schedule without needing to do to meet the TND code requirements. So that's the language you want stricken, Commissioner?

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:08:52What

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:08:52is it that you

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:08:52want stricken?

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:08:53Well they want to give the T and D credits without doing all the T M D requirements just to have 'em reloaded. Um I mean I'd like to see 'em reloaded too, but I don't wanna I mean we need impact fee transportation dollars to help this whole area. So I don't want to give full credits where they're not due. So they're gonna get

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:09:10credits for the part that they do do?

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:09:12Yeah, whatever they whatever they're qualified for without exception. But I don't want to just give them just because they're doing one part of it that they give the full credit.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:09:19Okay.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:09:21So that would be the language I just read in thirty seven B With regard to utilities, the the what's required by the conditions of approval is a utility services agreement with Pasco County. So. And whether Pasco County gets sewer from Hernando. At the moment that's doesn't look likely, but or if Pasco County itself serves the property, the requirements for utility services agreement. So that's what the requirement is.

   1:09:49And I suppose if none of those happened then you're never getting it.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:09:51If we serve the property, you're going to have to bring service to your property.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:09:56Yes, I will put that on the record. That is correct. Okay. And we already were pro we're already proposing to do water because there's water available and the water line extension is about one point six million dollars to the site. Um so yes, we understand that and happy to put that on the record. We have no intention of saying you've approved our comp plan and our rezoning and now the county has to pay to serve our project. Happy to put that on the record. That is not our intention. That's why we wrote a finding a fact with staff so that that we couldn't come back and say that. So I think that leaves the final

   1:10:26question regarding the emergency access commissioner.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:10:32I I think I'm pretty consistent here. The more Connection points. the better for any development And so why you wouldn't take advantage of every single opportunity around there to connect?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:10:46And we do have lots of connections. We have two to the west and two to the east and Okay

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:10:51where so I can't tell on this map up here. W um where are they to the west?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:10:59There's one here.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:11:02That dot?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:11:03One here, yeah. You just can't see it, the scale. There's one here.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:11:08Well yeah. I'm sure you've

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:11:09connected to the camping line.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:11:11And what does that connect to? Does that connect to

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:11:13Future. Future. It's vacant. This is vacant here.

   1:11:18So the issue was about this access right here.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:11:21That's the property that's vacant to your left.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:11:24Yeah, there's vacant property here. So

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:11:26what about the stubbed out roads to the south?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:11:28So so that's so I just want to go through where our connections are on the MPD plan. So your question is about this one here. We had proposed it as emergency access. Because of the residences there are existing residences there.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:11:42There's one driveway.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:11:44However, so I I asked my team from a standpoint of a site plan does it matter if it's functional access versus emergency. And they said no. The only thing we'd want the board to do is we wouldn't want to make that change and then alter our substandard road review. So if the board would agree and they can do it if they direct staff to put it in the m in the memo that we don't have to go through substandard road review because we make that a functional access, we can accommodate that connection in our site plan and and modify this MPUD

   1:12:14to make that a functional access.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:12:17Oh so you don't want to connect because the road is not in great shape?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:12:20No, it really was really It was put it was for the neighborhood because a lot of times there is that concern where you put a n new project in and then you make access to an existing. But if that's something the board wants to do w from a site plan s site plan perspective we can accommodate it. It's just Our Substantive road review which we've already been through. showed that as emergency access, we just have to include a variation approved at the board level here to that requirement then

   1:12:51we could accommodate if the board wanted us to. So we're Trying to accommodate whatever

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:12:59So on where you have your or I don't know. I guess that's a diamond, I can't really tell. On the upper left side, does that coincide with Carlis Carlissimo Avenue?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:13:17So s Car Carlicio is to the west. Right. And so our obligation is to step out to our property. Click We are not adjacent to Calisimo Drive. Well I know but so but we're but our stub out is approximate Two where that existing road is to the west.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:13:36Yeah, so my my I guess my question is are w are we setting up some kind of grid system for the area and it is are you hooking into Carlita Is that the right-of-way? Where Carlissimo could attach.

   Unidentified speaker

   1:13:48Hi, uh Dallas Evans, civil engineer Landis Evans and Partners at thirty eight ten North Dale Boulevard in Tampa. Um, that is correct. That does align with Carly Small.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:13:58Okay, well that's good. I'm happy with that. Thanks.

   1:14:02Okay, so Commissioner

   Denise

   1:14:05want to address transportation things if they are allowed to speak.

   Mike Moore

   1:14:09Okay, well can she call on me, so let me go real quick. Thanks. Thank you, Madam Chair. I and I appreciate you know your statement about the connect connectability and everything, but the I don't think today I mean they they brought the site plan, staff approved it. Um If you go make a change, you're gonna have to in my opinion gonna have to redo this whole public hearing because the residents weren't expecting connectability within their neighborhood. So they weren't ready. I mean you would have to go back out, let their neighbors know, and probably have an additional

   1:14:39public hearing or continue it because as Barbara stated, that's one of the biggest objections usually amongst neighbors are people, you know, connecting to their It's in their neighborhoods. So I'd rather keep it as is.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:14:53And then just but there's unintended and I'm gonna vote for this, but there's unintended consequences. Well I don't

   Mike Moore

   1:14:59appreciate what you

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:14:59said. When you make everybody go out in and out the same way and we hear it uh in my area, 'cause we don't have as many roads as you State vote fifty four, every subdivision, if that's their only in and out, I mean it's a disaster. And um so

   Mike Moore

   1:15:15you gotta have other ways to get around. I appreciate what you're saying. I just would like you know, this is how it was presented and this is how it's been presented to the neighbors and now all of a sudden we make the changes that we're gonna send, you know, however many cars through a neighborhood, I don't think they'd appreciate that very much, not having the opportunity to speak on the matter. So I would say leave it as is today.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:15:33And I I'm okay w I'm gonna I've made my point. I'm okay with it. You don't have to have traffic people speak more if you don't want, but I just think we should always be looking for connectivity. Does anyone else have any? Okay, I think we have someone here speak on this. Yes.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:15:48We have um

   Unidentified speaker

   1:15:49Commissioner Oakley's training. Oh no, we come back. Okay. Okay.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:15:53Okay. Do you mean to call the individual or or Commissioner Yeah? Okay. Can uh Rakowski please come to the podium?

   1:16:04And then just state your name and address for the record and then you can proceed.

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:16:08Uh Kenneth Rikowski, [address removed].

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:16:13And you were sworn in and you said that?

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:16:15Yes.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:16:15Okay, I thought what

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:16:16you said at the end. I attended the Commissioner Planning Meeting and I was really surprised on how smoothly it went through. There's a lot of things that are not quite right with this plan. One of them is like you were talking with Carlissimo. That's another hundred acre parcels to the left, to the east, to the west. When the applicant went ahead and stated that um They were getting water from or their wastewater from Hernando County. That

   1:16:47wasn't factual because in May 25th the Board of Commissioners up in Hernando had turned it down. She also said at the time that um

   1:17:01funding for the county line road widening. was approved. Which it wasn't. So now we're stuck with a situation. If this is approved How are we gonna get out of our basically our only road which is Alexon. And Alexon intersects with Carlissimo. And it's also the road where the four teenagers were killed because of the The uh

   1:17:29The hill that's there. So as you come down Alexon heading north, you come to Carlissimo and you can't see the intersection.

   1:17:39Also now we have um Four. No we have three Vitality markers at each of the roads, one at Alexon. When it um Farnsworth and one at Drayton from accidents there. The road is a east-west road at certain times of the year because of the elevation change.

   1:18:02You cannot see what's on the other side of that hill and it's gonna be right where their road exit's gonna be for their sub the the subdivision.

   1:18:12So I really don't understand how this could even be. Not Also with the uh the fact that it's zoned for one per acre. Which we all are. And I'm sure Commissioner Moreno knows that. He drives that area, he knows that on our side, it's just nothing but large parcels. So this doesn't fit and it's not gonna be good for our Neighborhoods. Thank you.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:18:44Is there anyone else that um wishes to speak to this online?

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:18:47I have no one else signed up and no one

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:18:49on Linux. Right. Um Barbara?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:18:54Barbara Wilhay for the applicant, I in no way stated that we were definitely getting wastewater from Hernando. We've were we've been aware since shortly after the Hernando County Commission did that of that situation. Um with regard to County Line Road, the day of Planning Commission was the day after Planning Commission that the Governor vetoed the fifty doll fifty million dollar allotment for County Line Road. And I had mentioned it was approved by the legislature and I had mentioned that it was under consideration by the governor. It was actually vetoed

   1:19:24after um after right after our Planning Commission, interestingly enough. I do have our transportation engineer here. I would state that we are gonna have to put a light and make improvements at County Line Road at our entrance. That light will start breaking up some traffic along there. So they're they will create breaks in traffic. I think Mr. Razor can talk about it uh much better than I can if you'd like to for me to bring him up. But uh we certainly understand uh traffic and and we will be making improvements to County Line

   1:19:55Road and and we'll have to throw the traffic signal in and there's a condition of approval regarding that.

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:20:04No, Jack. Jack. Hey Barbara. So currently

   1:20:11You're at 770 for units. It looks like you can get out of the Under seven hundred, down to six eighty two. The way it lays out?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:20:19That's that is the number that's on their plans that they prepared.

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:20:22Okay, you did and fuse a matrix and you get something to that number.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:20:26That for instance up to sixty two thousand, yeah.

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:20:28Okay, so I would like to see more commercial. Maybe s staff might have to answer the question, but um If you got if you were able to do more commercial for the same trade off, would that interest them?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:20:42So we have to Six eighty two to sixty two thousand. And then we also have a a Loom language that says if we have a lower traffic generator, like for example, Office. generates less than the commercial, we can even get more square footage because we get to make an exchange based upon trips. Basically we have A set amount of trips. Right. That's what's been studied and that's what's been allowed and we can do exchanges based upon those trips for additional uses and square footage.

   1:21:13So that's kinda how that works.

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:21:14All right. So the tri trips is that based upon the size of Kineline Road now or what's gonna be projected from the future?

   1:21:23What's

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:21:24the study was let's see, let's let Mike try to help us here.

   Mike Razor

   1:21:28Uh Uh good afternoon. Michael Razor with Razor Transportation Consulting, 19046, Bruce B. Downs Boulevard, Tampa, and I have been sworn.

   1:21:46So reducing the residential units increases the commercial. So on a comparison basis, if we were to go to an office product or something like that, which has a lower trip generation uh rate, the same reduction in single family units would result in a uh greater number of square feet allocated to office. Uh so that's essentially what Barbara was indicating. But I think that your question was um Uh regardless of trips, with that forty thousand number, could that be a a larger number?

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:22:20So so if we if you wanted, if the developer wanted to and they wanted to put more commercial out there, would they have the matrix available to them to put more commercial by reducing more residential?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:22:33That matrix is there, yes.

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:22:35So that matrix

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:22:37is just a basic

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:22:38foundation could get a little bit of a little bit of a little more intense, just a basic foundation.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:22:43That's correct. That matrix is that.

   Denise

   1:22:50But clearly stating that they would have to reduce residential to get To get more commercial. Correct. Yes. Commercial or office? Well, so to us commercial is something for pecuniary gain, so it could be office commercial,

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:23:05yeah. Okay. Yeah, if there's if it was an office that you get even more. Um Is there any way we can even entice them more to put more commercial out there? And and increase the matrix up.

   Denise

   1:23:17So um I think that we we may have touched that touched upon this when we first talked about the comp plan, 'cause there There was a transportation needs analysis, there was a transportation assessment done, so we would probably have to go back and redo some of that stuff.

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:23:37Okay.

   1:23:40Would it be best if we just left it open, Barbara, to have you be be able to come back if you did want to go get more rather than going the residential way? I know you the developer may have a plan already in place that he may not want to change, but I want to throw that out there to say I'd like to see more commercial.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:23:55I think the way the documents are written allow for that flexibility. We know that we're gonna have six sixty thousand because we know our unit count, they've laid it out. Yeah. Eighty two. So we know we're gonna be up around sixty thousand available commercial. If we have an office use it'll be more 'cause the trade is different. and we have no caps on the amount that we can trade. So I think we've got it all set up. in the paperwork to give that flexibility. We can always come back in and do a modification to seek more. Um especially if it's office, it doesn't

   1:24:25go through transportation review. It's kind of interesting that if you add office to an existing project, it doesn't go through transportation review, but if you have it you do office in your initial that it goes through transportation review, kind of uh quirk in our code, but Some good.

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:24:40All right, so Denise, is there a way that we can do something right now this to make it easier for them? Because obviously time is money and time is delayed as go, that we could give them an extra incentive to put even more uh commercial there as opposed to residential.

   Denise

   1:24:54So I believe Ms. Will Hyatt stated that the way that the actual um m the the conditions are written and the loom is written, it doesn't provide a a max cap. It provides the opportunity to do that um within the loom. Um I just I'm thinking out loud at the podium sadly.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:25:14The approval of this Conversion is as liberal as the board can be without

   1:25:24Going back through and doing doing more analysis. continuing this and doing analysis. I mean that because they right now what I'm what what I'm seeing in the documents is for every seventy-two single family residential units they can get twenty thousand square feet of commercial.

   1:25:46If you Play with that and move out of ITE.

   1:25:53then it's not based on anything. So right now it's set up under the International Transportation Engineers matrixes, it's defensible. Right.

   1:26:05Right.

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:26:06Do you think there's any p chance we could get it more liberal for them to get more commercial in exchange for the residential? Or it'll be a waste of time.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:26:18So here's an idea. 'Cause I've stood here and said that we're going to to exchange for um To get to sixty. And it's trip equivalent, so we wouldn't have to go back through. Unless but see what the county attorney thinks, but could we change these numbers now? To sixty thousand and seven hundred. Um So that We can't do any more than seven hundred, so we have already like de facto made that exchange of that extra seventy To sixty thousand. So

   1:26:49you know what you approved today is sixty thousand seven hundred. that be objectionable for Mr. Kenny at all?

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:26:59could take out of the M PUD right now the seventy two residential units and give 'em the sixty thousand. We can change that in the document today and then they wouldn't have to do That initial conversion, that too.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:27:11And then you would know what the numbers are. Uh it wouldn't be left to us to do 770 residential. We would know that we can only do seven hundred. And that it's sixty thousand today.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:27:23approved the math that the math works and so you can make that change

   Denise

   1:27:28right now. Noted we'll have to bring some changes to the clerk's office, but yes, we could take care of that.

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:27:37Do

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:27:37we

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:27:37have

   Denise

   1:27:39Alright, are we ready?

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:27:40Well thanks for one long more thought. So it It might address the commissioner's concerns 'cause I think Office is exempt from traffic analysis. So there may be a way that they could add more office. I would need to ask Mr. Who's your traffic persona? Okay. Did he assume that did he assume that affects your access management analysis though?

   Mike Razor

   1:28:02That's conceptual at the current time.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:28:06So in theory they could add office as an exempt use. So they could add more office without triggering a new traffic analysis. Not retail though. But if you're if you want more office there they in theory could we could give the in in the entitlement for more office without Having to start a whole new analysis. Okay. He's still gonna have to r deal with it at access management stage when they come in for site plan approval, but from a traffic now I say that but then you just approve the comp plan but it has a cap,

   1:28:36so I don't know if we'd have to revisit the comp plan to do that though. Put Office is exempt from traffic analysis.

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:28:46So as of right now they're looking at doing sixty thousand commercial, which is retail RO. Uh and that would be at seven hundred units for the cap. So How could I

   1:29:03Could

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:29:03I? I don't remember what the com I don't have the comp plan memorized. I don't know if it has a cap on If it has a cap on the amount I need somebody to help me with what that cap is.

   1:29:27Yeah. Yeah, I mean, yeah. Normally we would allow them to increase over We we encourage office. Okay, so office is exempt from traffic analysis. If the complan didn't have this cap of forty thousand square feet,

   1:29:44We could allow them in the MPD to Go. Had a lot more office if we wanted to. But but now we've already approved the compliment with this cap of forty thousand square feet. So uh I don't know how to do that without revisiting the comp plan. No, we just did the complan.

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:30:00Could we go back to it? Oh my goodness. Well no but look, Commissioner Starkey, that's exactly what I was trying to do, was just trying to find out why am I ki capping myself at forty thousand square feet when I know I could do four hundred. So if I get if we gotta go revisit that

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:30:14while we're here right-so you want to com commercially stripped out County Line Road?

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:30:18So Jeff, do you think they could do a motion to reconsider the compliance stage? Okay.

   1:30:26Oh, because DEO was sent to sent with this.

   1:30:31But

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:30:31I gotta think that if I can pro promote more office space, especially up there. Right? That's gotta be nothing but positive for us. And if I can do that and even if it delays DEO for you guys down the road, I don't think that's a problem if you're gonna get extra entitlements without having to do it anymore.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:30:50I mean one thing you could do is you could give them the additional office in the M P D but say it's subject to the Com Plan being amended and then whenever they they get the Com Plan amended they can do that. I mean I don't I don't know how to fix the complain problem. I can fix the traffic problem for Office. Right. I can't fix your comp plane problem because that's a pretty hard cap.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:31:15So to an extent, you're designing this project for an applicant that Already has a plan in place for

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:31:26They and they may and they may not change, but if they can get So much more office.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:31:33And Well let me just say this. Barbara's well aware and her clients well aware that we give office away for free. So they could have gotten to I mean, they could have asked for off they could have asked for a million square feet of office and we would have said, Heck yes, bring it. And they but they didn't ask for it. So that's the They know, they they fully know, Mike Mr. Razor knows, Barbara knows that if they had included office entitlements here We would have thought it was exempt. Okay. But they never asked for it. So to Jeff's point, you're sort of foisting office upon

   1:32:03somebody that doesn't even want it. Well, Because they could if they had asked for it, we would have given it to them. I mean I I David,

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:32:10I just look at David, I just look at they've got ten acres of Frontage. Right on Connelay Road. And of it, they're gonna use probably two thirds of it.

   1:32:23And I if and if I could put an incentive in them to go build more offices, especially if I can trade off residential.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:32:29The only gonna tell you is that we incentivize the heck out of office. We don't you know, we don't be exempted from timing the phasing, we have had pay zero mobility fees, the ever the whole world knows this. But they never asked for it. So i other than it's a potential use that's allowed under their retail slash office.

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:32:48Well I think their big money was gonna be the residential. That's what that's what they pretty much had sold, like a lot of these projects do, they're gonna be locked into doing the residential, but it's but if they had to give up the part of the commercial, so be it. And maybe thinking they just could come back later on to go the other way.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:33:04Of the sixty thousand they're allowed to have, if they want to do office instead of retail, our mobility fees incentivize that. They'd pay zero mobility fees if they did office. They're gonna pay a heck of a lot of mobility fees if they do retail. Right, but if they've got

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:33:17a retail that's coming in they're paying it, they're paying it. So it it wouldn't affect them. But if I've got an office that may be a little bit later coming down the road If I have that opportunity far then make it easy to say, you know what, we can just go flip the switch and get it in there. Maybe they designed it that way to to leave that office space open until they get the right buyer for it.

   Mike Moore

   1:33:36Well M Madam Clerk Commissioner, you might have to mind you mind.

   1:33:41I don't we never met on this, right? We made a list?

   Unidentified speaker

   1:33:44We did not.

   Mike Moore

   1:33:47Okay. First time I've seen it. But did you guys did anybody other else meet on this? Oh, okay. All right. Well I don't remember.

   1:34:01Anyways, since you guys did meet, I don't know where that seems like there was some confusion on what was actually coming out. That's what it seems. We're not you're not gonna work this out right now.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:34:11I know

   Mike Moore

   1:34:12I'm about to move to continue this. You guys need to sit down. Well hold on time you guys need to sit down and like get this thing figured out because I'm not gonna sit here while we debate how we're gonna do this for the next 30 minutes. This should have been done. Hold on, let me finish. When we thought we did. Let me finish, let me finish. This should have been done previous. Everybody should have been on the same page before it was brought in front of that's my opinion. But I don't want to hear let's try to figure this out on the spot. So I'm moving to continue unless we get a motion to approve or demote.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:34:37Can I jump in please on behalf of my client who has a closing coming up and is

   Mike Moore

   1:34:40extended as far as he can? I'm not in there for the last thirty minutes.

   1:34:44You guys should have met with me too. I could have helped you along.

   Jack MarianoVice Chair

   1:34:47All right. I'm gonna make a motion I'm gonna mo make a motion to approve it with the sixty thousand Office retail entitlements with a seven hundred unit cap. Eliminating the T and D reductions unless fully authorized um by staff's rec you know, staff's uh regular regulations.

   Unidentified speaker

   1:35:12Okay.

   Kathryn StarkeyChair

   1:35:15All right. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? All right.