PDE-26-7781

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1. 1Oct 21, 2025
   Board of County CommissionersP70Public hearingApproved

   Approved minutes

   Approved Staff’s recommendation including to add the language “prior to the final building inspection for the first residential unit” to the intersection improvements to also include the flexibility option for the intersection improvement as presented or the paving of a portion of 20 Mile Level Road and if the course changed that the Board would be updated with Commissioner Yeager and Commissioner

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   Oakley

   29:02Okay, next one.

   29:05Proof of publication, Tampa Bay Times, March third, twenty twenty five, and by affidavit of certified mailings and site postings.

   29:15Cool. We have multiple people signed up as well. Okay.

   29:22Oh my god. What?

   Planning and Development staff

   29:30Good afternoon. William Vermillion Planning Development Economic Growth. Before I get started today, there were some Ex parte communications for this project that were Sent to the clerk's office. This is PDE 267781 Enclave at Livingston Master Plan Unit Development. By Academy of the Lakes. This is a rezoning request from AR Agricultural Residential to MP master planned. unit development for the maximum development. of 178 townhome dwelling units. On forty six

   30:00acres. With the current future land use of residential six, six dwelling units an acre, this project is coming in roughly at three point eight dwelling units an acre, well below the future land use. This is point two five miles north of State Road fifty four, directly west of twenty mile level road and a thousand feet east of the Collier Parkway. And fifteen hundred feet northeast of the school Academy of the Lakes. Here's a rough location mat. Showing this project in

   30:30the South Market area.

   30:33Here is a contextual map of the MPD. You can see in the light blue shaded area the subject side of the MPUD. Outlined in red, running north to south on this screen is the Livingston Avenue extension. You can see the school in the black and blue shaded area, as well as terabella MPD that currently exists. And just to the south, there are some existing platted townhomes.

   31:05And just for some future context of the overall development, uh Terrabella had 730 total dwelling units as well as some non-residential use as medical office. and shopping center.

   31:20Location map. The current zoning district reflecting AR, the future land use map showing residential six. This is the overall MPUD master plan highlighting the amount of wetlands on site, which is why the applicant decided to call this enclave to effectively an enclave tucked away behind these wetlands. And here we go. uh more illustratively is the binding concept plan. Here you can see the extension of Livingston Avenue running north to south with

   31:50the eight eight-foot-wide sidewalk being built within it and then taken into this project via their access way. As you head north, the red units there are rear-loaded townhomes that front along that central boulevard, and then along the outskirts, the front-loaded townhomes. townhomes, providing a meaningful connection both to the north and And to the west. as well as the meaningful connection to Livingston Avenue, which takes you south to fifty four.

   32:20Here is the roadway exhibit of the Livingston Avenue extension, which is exhibit two in your agenda packet. Showing uh the applicant carrying this roadway from State Road 54 up to their project access. as well as leaving the current alignment of twenty mile level road as it exists there.

   32:43This is the cross section of Living Institu Avenue, which um the ultimate build out, of course, you have four eleven foot travel lanes, two per side with the median and the eight foot sidewalk and the twelve foot sidewalk they are showing as the second phase of the roadway. So A little bit of background for All of the commissioners that tune into Planning Commission

   Joanna Cheshire

   33:08or

   Planning and Development staff

   33:09don't tune into Planning Commission. Uh in any event when this project first came forward, there was some questions about the traffic analysis, the the timing phasing study. So uh there was a prolonged continuance until the time that the timing and phasing was uh redone by the applicant and submitted to staff for review prior to uh It's eventual recommendation of approval at Planning Commission. And a a couple things happened subsequent. uh as it relate as it related to the update timing uh updated timing and

   33:39phasing. So the the first thing that the applicant did was use the twenty fifty long range transportation plan. Uh the previous study because the project had been submitted some time ago relied on the twenty forty-five Long range transportation plan and uh In the intermediate time of being submitted and finally making it to public hearing, the board had already adopted the 2050 LRTP, so the applicant was kind enough to go back and use the data from the newly adopted twenty fifty LRTP in which case this found um some cost feasible

   34:09sections that were funded um Within the vicinity as highlighted here, and some illustrative vision improvements out to 2050 as it related to State Road 54 and Collier Parkway. Um this project also is providing the right-of-way for the future extension of Livingston Avenue north along its project boundary for the uh the overall extension as a uh parallel reliever to Collier Parkway.

   34:35This um

   34:37And uh I believe the the big sticking point here was uh originally and currently State Road 54 exceeded the volume capacity ratio of 1.0 established by the land development code. But this project was was no uh in no way bound by the code to a to mitigate for a road that had already been failing, of course. But but what they decided to do and work with staff was to create improvements. at the intersection of Livingston Road and State Road 54. Which included a left bound a

   35:07left turn lane, a shared through and right turn lane, and a right turn lane. And what that did was increase the max VC ratio for that intersection by roughly eighty percent, which is uh fairly significant. And and when I say it increased the max ratio for that, that is of the the worst movement that happens at that intersection. It in decreased the time, thereby decreasing the B C ratio of that intersection.

   Yeager

   35:37I have a question. Can I ask

   35:41That road's already in failure, right? That road in question?

   Planning and Development staff

   35:44Uh State Road fifty four.

   Yeager

   35:46But it's

   Planning and Development staff

   35:47not Livingston.

   Yeager

   35:48Right. So but when they when they make the improvements. What how does that help? help?

   Planning and Development staff

   35:58There's I mean I have a map of the road. I don't have a map on the slide of the project distribution and the VC ratio tables. Uh they're included in the agenda packet, but Essentially what it did was the intersection of Livingston and State Road 54. By doing these improvements they essentially increased the capacity of the queuing for that intersection, alleviating some of the stresses of the longest turning motion. So Why they couldn't fully alleviate

   36:28for the V C ratio on fifty four, no No project would be able to alleviate the current volume capacity ratios of 54. What they did was ameliorate for their direct

   36:40That will in turn help uh the entire area as a whole in terms of traffic.

   Yeager

   36:46Uh so with the traffic study. The traffic engineer is gonna have the geometry of the intersection between the easy. Oh they have it in their slide?

   Planning and Development staff

   36:51Yes,

   Yeager

   36:52cool. What

   36:53is

   36:53happening?

   Planning and Development staff

   36:53Uh Mr. Ingle just told me that uh in the applicant's presentation they'll have some geometries up for you. I just don't have it in my staff slide. And uh S uh Mr. Steve Henry. could probably explain uh this a little bit better than I, but I did my best.

   Yeager

   37:10You did great.

   Planning and Development staff

   37:11I appreciate it. I appreciate it. Wi with all that being said, we added some um conditions as well about uh construction access on twenty mile level road and Livingston Avenue because that was some of the concerns from the public. Um at the Planning Commission. So we added Some uh some conditions of approval that that specified construction access at the time for the residents.

   37:37There's one variation which is to not require a stub out to the south. Like I mentioned before, there's that existing platted townhome neighborhood, and any north south motion uh from this neighborhood can be Done on Livingston Avenue, which is that extension road they're building. With All of that being said, this comes with a recommendation of approval from Planning Development Economic Growth as well as the Planning Commission. I'm available for any questions.

   MarianoVice Chair

   38:04Madam Clerk. So on the cons on the access. Um easy condition condition.

   38:23On condition twenty five, it says the applicant shall stabilize Livingston Road and use the extension for construction access.

   38:31Twenty m twenty mile level road should only be used to construct utility improvements and mobilize equipment to stabilize Livingston Road extension. Why wouldn't you have all the construction traffic on the twenty mile road instead of the Uh Livingston Road where other residents are living there right now.

   Planning and Development staff

   38:48It's uh it's my interpretation of that condition. What it's what it's stating is In order for them to build Livingston Avenue, they have to use 20-mile-level road to construct Livingston Avenue, at which point they construct it. they wouldn't be using twenty mile level road anymore, but they do need Well, um a road to access the construction. All right. So if I'm

   MarianoVice Chair

   39:08gonna have all this construction traffic that's on these homes that are existing there right now Why wouldn't I want them to use uh twenty mile level road for their construction.

   Planning and Development staff

   39:26Let me make sure let me make sure I'm following your your question correctly. I can feel me.

   39:33Yeah,

   MarianoVice Chair

   39:33Livingston Road, you got twenty mile road. Why wouldn't you have all the all their construction traffic using twenty mile road getting up there as opposed to Livingston.

   Yeager

   39:46And I don't believe that road's paved, is it, twenty mile road? Mm.

   Barbara Wilhite

   39:50Barbara Will Height, [address removed]. Twenty mile level road is the existing road, is not paved. The residents at the neighborhood meeting on uh May twelfth asked me a lot of questions, sometimes are not great questions and but this was a great question. They said, What are you gonna do for construction access? Are you gonna use twenty mile level road? Are we gonna have to deal with your construction traffic? And so I worked with my team. We are not going to use 20 Mile Level Road, which is the road those residents currently use. The

   40:20condition says we have to use Um Our road that we're going to do. extending w what's really your vision road, we're extending Livingston Road, Livingston Avenue extension from where it currently um is the end of it. Up to access our projects. We are building Part of your vision road to access our project. So that's what the condition is saying, hey. construction traffic use that new road that you're that you're doing, which is part your vision road. Stay

   40:51off of twenty mile level road. Two exceptions. One is there will be utility improvements. The county already has a utility line within twenty mile level road, so there's some utility improvements. And the second exception is we have to get the trucks up to the area where we're going to stabilize in order to bring our construction access up the new road. So it's absolutely written to keep construction traffic off of the re where the residents drive every day.

   MarianoVice Chair

   41:16Uh let me ask another question. It says on can the next condition thirteen.

   StarkeyChair

   41:22Do we want her to do her presentation? Yes. Yeah, I

   MarianoVice Chair

   41:25think so. Well I got I I was asking

   StarkeyChair

   41:27staff a question. I

   MarianoVice Chair

   41:28didn't ask

   StarkeyChair

   41:28for I

   MarianoVice Chair

   41:28asked staff a question.

   StarkeyChair

   41:29Okay. So Barbara, we'll get back to you. That's fine. I'm just supplementing. Let the commissioners ask their staff questions.

   MarianoVice Chair

   41:34Okay.

   StarkeyChair

   41:34Okay, go ahead, Jack.

   MarianoVice Chair

   41:35All right. So condition thirteen, you've got it modified the northbound approach lanes of intersection 54 and Livingston to provide the following improvements you talked about, but you're not doing it until prior to the issuance of the building permit for the 90th dwelling unit. Why aren't we doing these improvements immediately?

   Planning and Development staff

   41:53Sure. And so that that was negotiated with staff and uh essentially it came down to the the traffic numbers being Um permissible below the nineth uh unit threshold.

   MarianoVice Chair

   42:05Didn't you say the roads are already failing? State Road 54. Okay, so I'm talking these are the improvements we're talking about, right? We're talking about fifty four intersection improvements. So if I'm gonna do improvements on fifty-four, I got a road that's failing already. Why am I gonna put all this construction traffic at the start? Now I'm gonna bring all these ninety new residents coming in and now I'm gonna go improve the roadway? This intersection should be improved before anything gets started out there.

   Yeager

   42:30And and I believe twenty mile road is failing, isn't it?

   Planning and Development staff

   42:33No ma'am. Tw twenty mile level road will be well within its capacity.

   Yeager

   42:37But it's half dirt and half paved, right?

   Planning and Development staff

   42:40It it will be Paved. up to the project entrance. Correct. The the remaining northbound will be dirt. But it wouldn't be failing from a capacity standpoint. It would be That'd be more of a substandard road question.

   Yeager

   42:56So we're gonna put homes on a substandard road possibly.

   Planning and Development staff

   43:00It's substandard road to the north, but not once they improve.

   MarianoVice Chair

   43:07I don't know how the board feels about that nineties unit before that intersection is being done, but

   StarkeyChair

   43:17Well let's listen to the applicants. presentation and then we can ask these questions. Do you guys have any questions? I've got one I've got one more. Okay, sure.

   MarianoVice Chair

   43:27So from what I understand staff, our own county staff was actually looking at flooding concerns up there. Bit to the north where the water flows, there's like one culvert there, can't take it all. Staff is actually looking at it right now from what I understand, looking at the engineering, will the improvements or what improvements need to be made to keep these people from flooding? What what's

   Planning and Development staff

   43:46your knowledge of that? That is a that's a great question and I can let uh our stormwater team or Mr. Couch speak to that. I know that they both went out on site to look at the the culvert you're talking about. Um To my knowledge there was Uh. W the property in which the the culvert is located, the gentleman that owns that property wasn't willing to have modifications done to the culvert that's exacerbating the issues out there currently.

   Yeager

   44:14Oh. Could you pull up the mountain map for us?

   Planning and Development staff

   44:25So I believe that uh Mr. Couch was on record at Planning Commission saying that He wa he was more than willing to help with the stormwater specifically in that location, but He reached some uh private constraints.

   MarianoVice Chair

   44:37All right. So from our staff, you mentioned our stormwater team. Who from our stormwater team here can talk to it?

   Planning and Development staff

   44:49I guess I'm putting on my stormwater hat. That was that was a joke. Um there should be stormwater at a minimum. Is there anybody online from Stormwater?

   MarianoVice Chair

   44:59We got map pages.

   Yeager

   45:01Yeah, can we can we look at the mil uh the Milton map, please?

   MarianoVice Chair

   45:06But you

   45:21No, we'll we'll wait for that. What what I've heard talking to the stormwater team is they're looking to see what it's gonna take. The water flows up that way, it's an issue. One covet may not be enough, it may need three. They're studying it right now. I was actually very surprised to see this coming forward, knowing that study is going on. It's very similar to me to to the Little Road Jasmine project where we got flooding issues that are there. Known staff's looking at it now because the developer didn't do it. Uh delay that project for all six months as we're now finding out that they gotta figure it out. What I don't wanna

   45:51see is us to go b approve a project that could be flooding people upstream or downstream, let's say. uh from this project until we know at least what the situation is.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   46:02So here here's the situation. Now Stein, this is where County Attorney's Office is involved. There's a resident north. Yeah. That has mu it's a this is a litigious issue. It has a lot of people. um narrowed the flow of water into Cypress Creek. And prior to the storms and during the storms, what what this homeowner has done. has negatively impacted many residents downstream backing water up on them

   46:32and almost into their barns because of their modifications. What this one resident has done and the county has offered to fix this at no cost if they sign and same with the water management district, if they sign an and acts allow allow the Swoop Mud and or the County to fix it on the taxpayer dime. That homeowner from what I understand won't allow it. What this homeowner has done irregardless of this project. as impacted the flow of water into Cypress Creek. And had

   47:02a negative impact. On neighboring properties and it backs up the water into the basin. That's uh the towns or the I've had a map where the all the water flows in to the to the pond. This one particular property needs to be fixed in the County Attorney's Office. Uh I know was trying to work through a remedy on this, but I don't know how far they've gotten.

   StarkeyChair

   47:30Commissioner Swiftmut involved? Because they

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   47:32I'll let the County Attorney's Office speak to the intimacies because I don't want because of its ongoing nature I don't want to Wanna miss misspeak on this. Because it needs to be irregardless of this project, this has to be fixed.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   47:45Yeah.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   47:46What this what this homeowner's doing is

   MarianoVice Chair

   47:48wrong. So if if that's the that's the case, I'll I uh uh that's a issue that needs to be dealt with. Whether whether it's we gotta study it first to figure out the solution is, propose it to them to to resolve it. Frankly I Yeah, so so frankly to go allow a development to come in knowing you've got a flooding issue right next door. And I mean I'll tell you from 2004, every every single hearing we had coming forward, I had them pulling up the flood maps. I was showing the flood maps all the time, just so we could see what was going on in the area.

   48:18This is very similar to that to me, that if you get people flooding in the area now And you're gonna go make a uh a devo have a development commit and make it worse. It doesn't make sense. It's not fair to those other people. Not the one guy, but the other people are gonna make it worse for them. Why would I do that? I would wanna get this thing fixed.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   48:36I'm not so sure it's gonna make it worse. I'm not so sure this project's gonna make it worse.

   MarianoVice Chair

   48:41If you have more impervious surface, the water's gonna go somewhere, it's gonna increase the flow.

   StarkeyChair

   48:45Well it depends if they do stormwater plants. Um Barbara, hang on a second, I know you wanna speak. Um, so what are you are you pulling up some GIS or what what are you guys working on? Um Okay, is that gonna take long?

   49:07No. And in the meantime, did we find anyone from the Stormwater? Did it get on the line?

   49:17I don't know which Aka is We're missing an Akka.

   MarianoVice Chair

   49:20Bradford. Yes.

   StarkeyChair

   49:22We're missing that Aka.

   49:26Where is that? Who where is that? Where is Brantford?

   49:31Where's Brantford today?

   Yeager

   49:32I think Mike's finding out.

   StarkeyChair

   49:35Finding out

   Yeager

   49:37Oh.

   MarianoVice Chair

   50:06Well you put on vision roads you be put put on stormwater.

   StarkeyChair

   50:09The Milton map. Everything's clicked on this map.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   50:19Nictorious Pito's playing development economic growth. The Vision Road just 'cause the map is a little dark, we just added the Vision Road map for contextual purposes to help Yeah. Um But this is the d the Milton aerials. Uh I think they were taken forty eight hours after the storm. Uh usually darker areas uh are indicating uh locations of flooding.

   Yeager

   50:44And where's the parcel here? Where the arrow is or well.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   50:50Is this gonna work? Yeah.

   50:53Parcel should be in this zone right here.

   MarianoVice Chair

   50:55So the Holy One is flooded.

   StarkeyChair

   50:59Where's the parcel you were speaking of, Commissioner Weightman?

   MarianoVice Chair

   51:02So Kurt so is the whole area flooded by this map, is that what you're telling me?

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   51:06Um this is just a an aerial image. I would rely on the site engineer to report on water stuff what kind of stormwater flooding actually existed on the site post Milton. So

   MarianoVice Chair

   51:19did you j did you

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   51:20say earlier the darker it is, the more flooding the way it

   51:22was?

   51:23Usually, but the the image is hard to to read. So we want to make sure that this the engineer can speak to it specifically.

   MarianoVice Chair

   51:35Compared to here. Is that Pretty much how you're showing darkness is where it's flooded and the lightest side is now where it's not.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   51:44That's generally how the the aerial is syndicating. But The uh The imagery is kinda dark, so you have to go to the facts on the ground, which is why I would rely on the engineer to report on it.

   MarianoVice Chair

   51:57Why don't we click on observe flooding, see what that shows?

   Yeager

   52:05Not there.

   52:10And Seth, where's the where's the gentleman's house you were talking about?

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   52:16We need a clearer map.

   StarkeyChair

   52:18Well I think when Barbara does a presentation we'll see some of those happens.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   52:21I can so in between where it says Coyre Park When Livingston there's a there's a pond there in the w in the water Flows. From the community to the right.

   52:32Bella something. That pond right there.

   52:35So it flows

   StarkeyChair

   52:39Mm-hmm.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   52:42That's the extension. Well that I So it backs up.

   52:49I don't have the exact address. So you get a neighborhood, the water flows, it comes out of Like really that's a good idea. Over here to the right and it dumps into this Pond waterway here and then worked its way out. and then it and you can see kind of the creek line

   StarkeyChair

   53:08Behind the school?

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   53:09Beh no, it's too I need a pointer. I mean

   StarkeyChair

   53:11so why don't you get up there? Well yeah, why don't you go up there and

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   53:13why didn't s professional staff do this?

   StarkeyChair

   53:16Because we don't have anybody here. I don't understand it. Where's our aka?

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   53:20Madam Chairman M I I would recommend that you table table this discussion Go to the applicant, have their presentation and then 'cause

   StarkeyChair

   53:31they may have these maps. Yeah. And explain things. So, all right, you guys good? We're gonna you can ask more questions. I thought we had a maybe we'll get someone from Stormwater, but we'll let Barbara make it.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   53:45Like.

   StarkeyChair

   53:48Yeah, but that TV's angled, so All right, let's let's hear the presentation. Maybe we'll get some of these questions in.

   Barbara Wilhite

   53:53Barbara Will High, 6327, Grand Boulevard. I have a presentation or I can s we can work on the right-of-way. Just a addressing your questions. I'm helping to do either way. Um But I Would you want to hear the presentation or we want because Jar I can tell you that S some some of the things we can with regard to drainage, let me just and then we can go through if we wanna go through this or not. But with regard to drainage, we didn't we didn't come here today and oh my goodness, there's a drainage concern out here. Right. We started a long time ago. And Jeremy can go through all of the facts. He

   54:24knows it very well. He did survey work on his own dime to figure out the problem. um and to research it all because all that goes into the permitting that he's done on the site. So I think Jeremy will be able to go through drainage and walk you all through. He's got all the maps. He was out there after Milton. I think you'll find that interesting. We talked about construction traffic, timing of the intersection improvements. I worked with my team Instead of the ninetieth y unit, we can we can agree to prior to final building inspection for the first residential unit. Um

   54:55we can certainly move that up. if if that's the the pleasure of the board. But let me run through this real quick. Um we started this, our first public hearing was in March. Of of this year, seven months ago. When we saw we had neighbors, a bunch of neighbors that had concerns, we immediately continued it, didn't have that hearing. And then we had a neighborhood meeting on May 12th, and we went to Planning Commission on May 15th. We had a first hearing. There were still things that Planning Commission wanted us to look at and address. And we did that, went back to Planning Commission on September

   55:25eighteenth. So none of this has been rushed, none of this has been pushed, this has been handled methodically and really making sure that we've looked at the issues, we've listened to our neighbors, listened to staff. So this is the land use. We sit in res six in a sea of res six. This isn't rural. This is this is suburban density. We have res 9 next to us. That's the church, the Catholic Church. The staff showed our our binding plan.

   55:55These are this is our product. We have front road load and rear load. You've been asking clients to do rear load. This client has bringing forth front load and rear load, 25, 24 foot units, which are wider units. You can see the density allowed under The res six. S. Is uh two fifteen. And our density. Is one seventy eight. So we're less than what the land use allows.

   56:24Project compatibility, what's around us.

   56:29Within Terrabella, when you drive down 20 Mile Over Road, and you can see that's that picture is from 20 Mile Over Road. That's Village of Terrabella. That's a three-story, 311 unit apartment complex, 14 buildings, 16.37 units per acre has been found compatible. along twenty mile of a road.

   56:50Moving on when you drive actually before you get to the apartments I should I should have this in reverse order. If you're driving along 20 mile level road, before you get to the apartments, you get to Keystone Place at Terabella. That is a four-story project with 140 apartments consisting of independent, 62 independent, 56 assisted living and 22 memory care.

   57:13Four stories.

   57:16To our south is Huntington Ridge Townhomes, and I know they are represented here today. That's 90 units, and that's five units per acre. Platted townhomes similar to ours. Our density is um on a on a developable laker 5.32. So very similar density to what you see at to the south. As been mentioned by staff and which I discussed, I came up and kind of supplemented the conversation you had with your staff about construction access. What this was a c condition that was resulted

   57:46from the neighborhood meeting and a very good question from one of the neighbors.

   57:51At Planning Commission, we had a neighbor from Huntington Ridge, and they are here today, asking about what the buffering was going to be between our townhomes and Huntington Ridge townhomes. The code requires no buffer.

   58:05But listen to the neighbor and proposed a buffer, it's on our binding plan. It's a 10-foot buffer, six uh foot vinyl fence. A lot of times your buffers don't require a fence, it's an optional thing, because you can have plantings or a fence, we committed to a fence, and type D plant put type B plantings. As you've heard about transportation from staff, there is an existing level of service efficiency at that intersection of 54 and Livingston.

   58:33Contribution.

   58:36We would increase the um any delay at the intersection by seconds? And importantly, the land development code says, your land development code, your rules for development of property in Pasco. is that this project is not responsible for reducing or eliminating the efficiency the existing deficiencies. So it could have just come here and said 3.6 seconds code says we're not responsible for existing deficiencies, but we didn't do that. We stopped in May and four months we worked on what can we do as

   59:06a mitigation project with your staff, with F D OT, four months we worked on what can we do to make that that intersection better and and mitigate any impact we'd have on that intersection. So that is what we end up doing. We end up doing of four different things to mitigate. Uh transportation impact. One is we are extending your vision road where it ends today at the memory care, independent apartments, that project, up to our project as

   59:36access. We're providing the right of way for the further extension of your Vision Road. We are doing the intersection improvement, which I just discussed the timing of and changing the timing of of what we agreed with with staff. Number three is the intersection improvement. I have Steve Henry here. I have our drainage trucks here. Our project engineer can do a much better job, but we also pay mobility fees and you can see the tally on the amount of impact fee and mobility fees this project will Um Yeah. With that, I'm

   1:00:07happy to bring up and talk drainage and any traffic questions now or do you want to hear from public comment and then we can do that in rebuttal? Happy to do whatever helps you all get your questions answered.

   1:00:21Excuse me.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:00:22Keep presenting the Stormwater Transportation.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:00:24Okay. Keep present. Okay, great. Um Jeremy, Jeremy Couch, Tampa Civil.

   project engineer

   1:00:30Commissioner's Jeremy Couch with Tampa Civil, I have been sworn. Um So

   1:00:38Tampa Civil has been engaged and working on this project for almost two years. uh very early on. We identified that Downstream. there may be issues. Um Our property is up on a hill compared to the surrounding properties. Our property is up near elevation 80 and the issues downstream are in the elevation 50s.

   1:01:11I can explain to you from the start where the issues are or what we're doing to help mitigate the issues. Where would you like me to start? Where the issues are? Great. Someone have an Elmo that I can hand you documents?

   1:02:00I'm gonna go back and forth because there's I don't think there's a mic I can have in UCLMO. For context, um I placed a star on where our property is. you can see the wetlands to the south east of the star. Uh twenty mile level road. is the dirt road that goes up the middle. Um water generally. goes east and north. If you see on the northeast side of the screen, that is thank

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:02:29you.

   1:02:32I could just point as you go along, but it's your show.

   Oakley

   1:02:40The blades are good.

   project engineer

   1:02:42Yeah. Uh in the northeast corner that is actually Cypress Creek. That's Interstate seventy five. For drainage.

   StarkeyChair

   1:02:55Oh, that's a I didn't know. That northern northeastern corner. Northwestern corner.

   1:03:03It goes

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:03:03it goes like this.

   StarkeyChair

   1:03:05Okay.

   1:03:07Right through that orange grove right there.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:03:13Mm.

   project engineer

   1:03:14Here we go. This area is from 1957. This is our site here. You can see historically it was a grove. Wetlands low, you can see twenty mile level. Over here, unfortunately Um Where there are homes now, this used to be a large wetland. There was a creek. that went this way and drained the area into Cypress Creek.

   1:03:52Sometime around nineteen sixty seven they decided to make land. Um this is really common in this area. There was a lot of groves built. Um They're dredged and filled. And Um you could see that The drainage was still good, it was still open, but the wetland got filled.

   1:04:13Hmm.

   1:04:23By ninety five, um There were a lot of homes, one acre lots, two acre lots. Homes had been settled. So Historically, the issues that occur here have happened from the past. Let me kind of show you. a little bit more about What has exacerbated the issue?

   1:04:57So Tampa Civil, uh could you pull that a little to the left please? There you thank you.

   1:05:07So historically um this is where the large wetland was. There is a road here called Terrell Lane. And you can see where The old ditches. I'm gonna show you some pictures. But Terrell Lane was built through the middle of the wetland which created a large embankment. It's a very small pipe that exists there today.

   1:05:35As the water flows north through the wetlands and I'll show you pictures, it gets to this location here where there are two pipes. This is kind of the Hatfields and the McCoys. There is one pipe that's large. Um I believe it's a little bit more than a little bit. Thirty inches. Um and another pipe immediately downstream of it. that is eighteen inches higher and

   1:06:05much smaller. And I'll show you the pictures of those. And essentially the water's blocked. So there's an embankment. the waters blocked, and where historically Through illegal acts, whether they were illegal at the time or not. The water's been blocked, there's a large em embankment built. And the water can't get through. Once it gets through. It's wide open. So there is one choke point where the water can't get through. Um

   1:06:37We furnished the county with all the survey data that they needed to fix us. We reached out, we worked with County Attorney's Office. Um we submitted documentation. We have a Swift Mutt permit. Just with my permit. agrees with me that we're gonna make things better. I'll show you how much better. We have a county permit to masquerade that shows it impervious. The county's reviewed it. The county also agrees. Let me show you the level of what's going on though.

   StarkeyChair

   1:07:16Can you guys reposition that just a little better?

   1:07:21That's pretty.

   project engineer

   1:07:26So this is south of Terrell Lane. When building came through, these homes didn't flood, but they did not have access to their homes.

   1:07:39This is the north side of Terrell Lane. You can see it's clear. It's flowing. Then all of a sudden we get ignored. We have a large pipe.

   1:07:49Thirty six inch pipe. Almost full. Immediately morph. Thirty six inch pipe still full.

   StarkeyChair

   1:08:01Wait, is that turned? Yeah. Yeah.

   project engineer

   1:08:06This is Again north.

   StarkeyChair

   1:08:09Are these different pipes or the same pipe?

   project engineer

   1:08:12Uh same pipe, other side.

   1:08:17Then you get to the quantum.

   StarkeyChair

   1:08:18Can you turn it? Can you turn it? Not a

   project engineer

   1:08:22So this is where the big pipe has been filled with a small pipe.

   StarkeyChair

   1:08:27Well

   project engineer

   1:08:31Here's another picture of big pipes filled with the small pipe. So essentially to the south.

   1:08:39It's holding water all the way up, 18 inches high. So this entire basin to the south. fills up, fills up, fills up where it historically drained out the Cypress Creek, fills all the way up. And then pops off.

   1:08:59For this. Small type. As it gets north. This is To the north, these are pipes that lead to the interstate of the drainage.

   1:09:14So right here at this location. This is where it's eighteen inches higher and everything to the south. So all this to the south. 20 plus acres, 30 acres of cypress has eighteen inches less storage because of this issue.

   Yeager

   1:09:32Was that caused by the homeowner? The landowner. The landowner. I mean, is is it and is he the one that i really doesn't want anybody on his property as well?

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:09:42Nik Nikki Spiritos is working on this and this is upside down. This issue dates back to when Commissioner Moore was in office. That's how long this boxing match has been.

   StarkeyChair

   1:09:52Well it shouldn't be allowed to go on.

   project engineer

   1:09:54So so we don't we don't know Who actually impeded the water. We don't know if it was like this when this person purchased this house. We don't know if he did it. Um but we know that there is a blockage. The County Attorney's Office has tried to reach out, they've offered to do the the work. They want an easement. Yeah,

   Yeager

   1:10:14Nikki's right there.

   1:10:15Oh,

   1:10:15thank you.

   project engineer

   1:10:17And and um And the person doesn't want to give up an easement. So

   StarkeyChair

   1:10:22that's they can't be allowed to cause harm to their neighborhood, right? During

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:10:26during the storm We met with customers downstream from them. And it what this is doing irregardless of this project.

   1:10:38But I'll

   Yeager

   1:10:39Right, because those people couldn't get to their homes.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:10:41But they almost lost property and and their property was Dammit Bowl let Ms Speartopster County Attorney since this is kind of a Funky issue here. I don't want to misspeak but whatever enforcement action may or may not take.

   Yeager

   1:10:56Nikki? Yeah, I'm talking about.

   project engineer

   1:10:58So so what what we can do our our contribution to the problem because we don't have the rights to go on their property We try to engage. We had a big meeting with a lot of people. It was a knockdown drag out. is because we're up on the hill, we're higher. We're significantly higher. We're fifteen feet higher. Wow. We were way higher, almost twenty feet higher. Um We can Hold the water up on the hill. And we've demonstrated with our Swift Mud

   1:11:28permit and a letter that we Furnished to County Stormwater. With calculations. that in the twenty five year event, once every twenty five years, We can reduce the discharges by thirty percent from our site, which is about nineteen CFS. That's significant, nineteen cubic feet.

   StarkeyChair

   1:11:49This this project had to pay for this guy's Illegal use of his property. I

   project engineer

   1:11:58I I don't disagree, Commissioner, but we're just trying to be good neighbors. When I like I said, two years ago, I went out there, saw there was an issue. took it upon myself to figure out what the issue is and what can we do. And so um

   Yeager

   1:12:13Do you mind if we hear from Nikki just to see where we're at? Thank you.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:12:19Thank you, Spiritus, Pasco County Attorney's Office. How are you doing this afternoon, Commissioner? Um so the situation we have downstream of this project is that This is a constrained open basin. So unlike a typical open basin, there's a choke point and it's constrained. And Mr. Couch has um Provided additional survey data. and has um been very

   1:12:50generous in his um ideas to help improve the situation. But it is an existing situation. So

   1:13:03the person who has the driveway that has the smaller culvert. He was not the property owner when the smaller culvert was put in. according to the records with the E P. But he did purchase a property. It does have the smaller culvert. Um I believe it was proposed that the applicant um replace the culvert. But I don't know where the communications

   1:13:34over the last couple of weeks have gone with a complainant. So I don't know if that's an option or not. The county doesn't have the right to just go onto the property and change out the size of the culvert. So my understanding of Florida Administrative Code is that the applicant has to design for the conditions that exist. That's the condition that exists.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:14:02I thought that uh County and the water management district Together would would fix it. at its cost if the property owner allowed it, not

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:14:13The county was willing to put in um the correct size culvert. I or I wish We don't know what the correct size culverts are for those driveways. There's more than one. Okay. But the county was But they're each different. But the County was willing to put in the larger culvert. for the property owner at no cost to that property owner. The property owner didn't want to give the county an easement and then we agreed that we could do it with a temporary construction

   1:14:43easement. and the property owner was unwilling But that's not the property owner who's at most at risk of flooding. It's the one upstream of him who's most at risk of flooding. So the person who doesn't want to give us the easement is not the one he's most at risk.

   StarkeyChair

   1:15:04Uh what about simile? Civil suit wise.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:15:08That's always an option. It's extremely expensive.

   Yeager

   1:15:11For the neighbor.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:15:12Extremely expensive.

   Yeager

   1:15:13That's that's not good. I have a question for the civil engineer. That's okay. So you're saying you're fifteen feet higher and you would be able to hold all your water. Can you explain how you would be able to do that?

   project engineer

   1:15:28Sure. Yeah. So r right now Um our property is steep. It's kind of a small hill if you've been to that like Collier Parkway 54 area. It's pretty high. There's a ridge there. And so what happens right now is the runoff from our property shoots down the hill immediately, hits the wetlands, and ends up over near Terrell Lane where uh the embank the first embankment is. Um when we develop We'll build

   1:15:58retention ponds at a higher elevation We'll trap our water. We are trapping our water. And we are slow releasing it significantly lower. The code allows me to release it at the same rate that the pre-development exists to make my ponds small. We've made our ponds larger to hold the water and release it slower. in order to do our small part.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:16:23Madam Chair? Yeah. While you're up there, Jair, I want to thank you too. When we did our meeting, you did tell us that all about the issue and then working with staff I knew there was something that had to be addressed. And I was very surprised to actually see this coming forward knowing staff was working on it. So that's from my reaction. When you're holding the water, it's for a twenty five year storm, is that right?

   project engineer

   1:16:41Uh so we hold it for we design for the twenty-five and the one hundred. So in the twenty five we're doing a reduction of thirty point one six and for the one hundred we're doing a reduction of about eleven percent.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:16:53Okay. And if we have a larger storm then you're not gonna be able to hold the water, it's still gonna release out.

   project engineer

   1:17:03It's gonna happen. It's it's everybody. It's all of us. We we we have to have a standard to design to. It's like a house. We don't design it for a five hundred mile an hour wind. We just have to pick a number. And work with that.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:17:16On a on a open basin, you have one set of standards. A closed basin would be a different standard?

   project engineer

   1:17:25So you'd still design for the same storm events? You just treat the water differently. You have a volume problem when you're closed. The water has nowhere to go. This instance the water has somewhere to go. It's just there's it's there's a closed basin is like a dead end road. The road ends, it goes nowhere. This is like if you're on a three-lane highway and it chokes up to one lane. All you can do is slow down the amount of traffic you put into that road to help out.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:17:53Okay. All right, let me get to a legal question if I could. So When anybody's gonna develop They can't change the water flow. It's gotta keep the regular flow. evidently the person that has this other smaller culvert now has changed the flow. I know that if someone buys a property, whether it had previous things done to it, We make those people if they're in for permitting they'll fix it. Now clearly this person's none from permitting but they are the the property has affected

   1:18:24a negative change that affects everybody else. Is there something we have legally to go after this person to get this culvert to be opened up because they have changed the water flow? I gotta think Swift Mods got some type of power. They did it for the the um the legends down in Trinity and we had that little culprit that got blocked to a foot. We had Swift Mud went in there, made him open it up. And they had to pay for it even to go through. If I can make the reserve down there in Trinity go do what, why can't I have this guy go bring it back to where it was before too?

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:18:54Swift Might has stated they don't have jurisdiction over this single family residence property.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:19:01Even if it connects to the flow of everything else that goes on.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:19:08Add that same look.

   StarkeyChair

   1:19:10We had this problem in Sierra Pines and this is not Yeager's problem. We had one homeowner who had the ditch that drained the whole neighborhood and he wouldn't let the county in to um To um Cle clean the drain. It was flooding the whole community.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:19:27Could we go eminent domain and take the property?

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:19:32If you could prove a public purpose.

   1:19:35We got all these people flooding.

   1:19:39But Ms. Spiritus is our eminent domain lawyer and she's giving me this look that that live just stepped in it. So Yay, one

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:19:45more file.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:19:48Yeah.

   1:19:51Nagy, what do you think? Is there any way to make this happen to get this fixed?

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:19:56Well, my understanding is that the applicant has represented that they have looked at This location is a downstream node. and that their stormwater modeling calculations have indicated that they will not have an adverse impact. Is that correct, Mr. Couch? Um So

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:20:21Well all right, so not not even for this development. Well le forget this development for a moment. I'm just talking about the situation with the pipe that's been Shrunk or raised.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:20:29Right.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:20:30Or both. Both. Can you Is there some way to make get it a d establish a public purpose to fix fix that. So everybody the other twenty-five homes or even hundreds of homes down below. Don't get flooded because the water is now can flow out freely if we take over this culvert and fix it.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:20:47We can consult with the um cut enforcement team and see if we can issue a citation.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:20:54Chairman We need we need the water to flow to the well fields for public purpose, right? Oh yeah.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:21:02I think

   1:21:07Let me consider the eminent demand matter, but I I think the citation approach might be more effective.

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:21:16Was it DEP that originally permitted it? Somebody originally permitted

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:21:19There was no I don't know if there was an original permit, honestly. It appears as though It dates back to the ditch and train of the Mosquito Control District's operations. Subsequent to that, a driveway culvert was put in, and subsequent to that, it was sleeved. DEP came out to the property, and when they discovered that it wasn't the current owner who had sleeved The culvert. They don't want to take any enforcement action against the current

   1:21:50property owner. So Well That's you know sorry,

   StarkeyChair

   1:21:58but you can't let someone flood hostage your community. I I think

   1:22:07Well, let's take that up as a separate issue. Well it's

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:22:09at another time. That's a big problem. Let me go a

   1:22:11little

   1:22:11further with it. So if they made a policy decision not to go after it.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:22:15Right.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:22:15But they still had the power, do you think, to go after it if they chose to?

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:22:19I think so.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:22:20Okay. So maybe we get some state legislative help to make that happen.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:22:23Yeah.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:22:23Jim but but our but hang on. But our own code was strong enough to go cite and go after it.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:22:32We can definitely um speak to the code enforcement team and see if we see who our witness would be for that situation.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:22:42Or a witness would be?

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:22:43Yes. Yes. They need uh engineer support.

   StarkeyChair

   1:22:46Okay. There he is. He just raised his hand. He just raised his hand. He's got all the documentation and photos.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:22:54Is that Jeremy? Did Jeremy make it.

   1:22:58Yes. So that that's

   StarkeyChair

   1:23:00okay.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:23:00That's our main issue is who would be our Expert.

   StarkeyChair

   1:23:04I so see seeing where we are right now, this is m my opinion. We have an applicant who's willing to take on the burden Okay. Holding the water. so that this doesn't have adverse effects to his neighbors, which to me is very unfortunate because that isn't their responsibility, but they've re looks like they've remedied the situation at their expense. But we still I mean For the twenty-five year event, right? But we still need to go and have this guy

   1:23:34open up his culprit. So one

   Yeager

   1:23:36of my concerns is if the road if those people couldn't get to their homes that already live there and we're gonna add more homes.

   StarkeyChair

   1:23:47Well let's let uh let's let them speak today.

   Yeager

   1:23:49Okay.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:23:52Barbara Wilhite. So uh my engineer has just explained that we exceeded all the requirements and we're doing more to hold water than water is b moving today. We actually have it's not just saying it either, he has permits. He's actually done all the work. He's got the Swift Mutt permit and he's got the permit from the county. So he's done all of that work. So we have exceeded what we are required to do. Make it better. Um we as one project can't fix this. So

   StarkeyChair

   1:24:23Um commissioners, you had questions on traffic. Did we um I don't think we got to that? No, I mean

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:24:30that I'll say that just with the with the traffic part as far as the access goes, having it to the ninetieth unit, I appreciate the offer to come out of the first unit, but frankly Those you have made have seen all the emails and whatever from the estates, uh even from Meadow Oaks, all the construction traffic going through neighborhoods that disrupt everything. at the minimum I'd wanna see that those inf those infrastructure projects that are gonna be done done before it even starts to at least take some of the burden off 'cause there will be trucks that could be lined up there seven o'clock in the morning. Coming

   1:25:01in, coming out. and and really hurt these people for their for their access.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:25:07Yeah.

   1:25:09What we've agreed to is reasonable. We went way beyond Um the code requires we have and what we've agreed to today is a reasonable timing for those improvements to the intersection overall um at fifty four in Livingston. And we've agreed to construction access. We've agreed that we're not gonna be on twenty mile level road. We're gonna be on the road that we and we construct. So I M my I think we've been more than reasonable

   1:25:40in what we proposed um relating to accelerating the improvements to that intersection, I think is reasonable.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:25:46You're entitled to the thought.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:25:47What's that?

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:25:48You're entitled to that thought.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:25:49I know.

   Yeager

   1:25:50I know.

   StarkeyChair

   1:25:50Um I the traffic uh engineer is here. Do we wanna listen to the traffic engineer?

   Yeager

   1:25:56We also have to listen to public comment too to get their address their comments.

   StarkeyChair

   1:25:59Yeah, but we're have the applicant hasn't finished their presentation. Did you want the traffic engineer to speak? As part of your team?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:26:09Sure. We'll bring Steve up.

   Henry

   1:26:21Good afternoon. Steve Henry, Linkson Associates, 5023 West Laurel, Tampa, 33607. So uh as Barbara I have been sworn. Yes. Um as Barbara had indicated, you know, one of the things we did when we went back from Planning Commission was we were looking at what mitigation we can do. Now again, this is only a a small townhome project and you've got the intersection of 54 Livingston. So we looked at a number of different options. One was to simply come up with a bigger improvement, pay a prop share, but that then nothing would really be done. The intersection

   1:26:52we pay a prop share and nothing may get done. So we that's what took some time was looking at what a project of this scale could do to that intersection. To help mitigate the impact for it. And in addition to that, then we met with the county. We also met with DOT since it is a DOT road. And when you look at the numbers, and this is where we came up with it, when you look at the numbers, and I'll I'll put this on the L Mill.

   StarkeyChair

   1:27:36Do you want to move it down a little bit?

   Henry

   1:27:41So when when we looked at the numbers at this intersection, th the the northbound movement, uh northbound right turn movement. was in in build out which is twenty thirty. Is it over almost three hundred cars turning right? The through volume was only fifty. And when you look at that area you can see that the northbound right turn lane is is fairly short. And you got a disparity between the through volume and the right turn volume. So that's when we came up with the improvement to take that

   1:28:11northbound through movement. lane and make it a shared through right and then a right turn lane. So what you've done now is taken Instead of three hundred cars being in one lane, you've got 400 cars in two lanes. So it helps the overall capacity, doesn't change the timing of the intersection, but it but helps it doesn't help doesn't change the phasing of it, but adds that additional capacity, allows it to flow a little bit better than and in fact what happens also is that northbound right cues into the through lane, which

   1:28:41then creates some problems. So this kind of helps. Balance the intersection and helps with the capacity. But again, given that we've got a relatively small project, we're trying to come up with something that would at least mitigate the impact, which we believe that this improvement will mitigate the impact to the intersection. It's certainly not going to fix the intersection. Takes a lot more than that to fix the intersection, but it certainly mitigates it and as indicated. By code, we're not even required to do that, but that's what the developer had agreed to do, was to come up with some type of mitigation to help the intersection

   1:29:11and mitigate their impacts to it. Madam Chair.

   StarkeyChair

   1:29:15Yeah.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:29:16So when looking at this map, there's three lanes there. Are the number of lanes changing or just striping? We're just restriping.

   Henry

   1:29:22Now we have to we have to do But there are there are a fairly significant amount of of signal improvements that have to be done to be able to accommodate those movements to be done. But yes, we are we will be restriping the intersection again to balance out the volumes there.

   StarkeyChair

   1:29:38Are you talking about from the north going south or the north?

   Henry

   1:29:41No, the

   StarkeyChair

   1:29:42south

   Henry

   1:29:43north. The south going north.

   StarkeyChair

   1:29:44I just drove Livingston last last Monday. Scary road at night.

   1:29:51There's there's no shoulders, there's no sidewalks, no lights. That's not your issue. South of fifty I'm talking about south of fifty four. It was not pleasant.

   1:30:04Um

   1:30:08Try how many units are you guys putting in?

   Oakley

   1:30:12One seventy eight, I think.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:30:15Okay. Commissioner Weightman So um to Commission Mariano's point, if it's just re predominantly restriping. uh for this intersection, right? That's what I'm hearing is predominantly just restructuring and striping on this segment of road.

   Henry

   1:30:32Um correct. But again, part of that is w we have to do a lot of the signal as far as the signal modifications to allow that geometry to work. There's that's actually with more of the cost is in the signal modifications. Mm-hmm.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:30:48So how long does that typically take?

   Henry

   1:30:52to permit that and cons uh yeah it permitted probably four months to construct it once you get a permit, ninety, hundred twenty days.

   1:31:05Well I think what we've agreed to in this case is that this would be installed prior to the the the the the first um review of of the C O. Well they actually they call it the the the first the the last review of the building inspection, I think is what they call it. But it but basically CO, part of the first CO. Correct. So

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:31:28that's

   Henry

   1:31:28where we're

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:31:29the first person would potentially be living here, all this work would be done.

   Henry

   1:31:33Correct, yes.

   StarkeyChair

   1:31:36Thank you.

   1:31:39Okay, um this is a public hearing. Is there anyone here wishes to speak to the setting? We have two signed up. We have two signed up. Susan Lang and George Copalu. Is George still here? Okay. Yeah, I'm not sure.

   Susan Lang

   1:31:58You guys are are refreshing. Thank you very much. Very refreshing. Please tell me. My name is Susan Lang. I reside at [address removed]. Been there almost thirty three years. Next month. Um I have a little map. I'm just gonna talk pretty much to traffic. Um with this uh new proposed development uh going through Livingston and 54. It it's a crazy intersection. It's just a kind of a three-way. Um it goes a little bit further back if you can see the map. Um

   1:32:29it it allows access to the senior living, it allows access to Venezia Drive, which is the back road to those commercial developments in the front. It's also the only access to those apartments they mentioned earlier. and it also provides access to all the homeowners in terabella. Um, they complain all the time about their access next to Florida Medical because it's a brick road and it gets used a lot and they have to pay you to fix it. Anyway, the point is um The infrastructure to support the development is just not there. It seems not to be

   1:32:59there for 20 mile level and 54 intersection. I did a research with the DOT system, SOGIS. It's a 10-year snapshot from 2011 to 2020 in terms of accidents and injuries and fatalities. And um in comparison The the the Livingston intersection over that that 10-year period had over 200 accidents with two fatalities. To compare that, Curlew and 19 in the same period of time had 769

   1:33:30accidents with three fatalities. Now that's a big difference in number in terms of how many accidents versus deaths versus our little 20-mile level and Livingston or or Livingston and 54 intersection. Um one of the concerns on 20 mile level, it is a lime rock road, it is county maintained, and it is dead end. We only have one way out. The concern and and discussion with the traffic while they develop is when that road's blocked, we don't have a back door. So there's no way out. During the hurricanes

   1:34:00last October we did have flooding. We were able to get by it. It wasn't terrible. But the after effect we had some tree company come in to do some tree repair and I don't know who was responsible for it. If Doesn't matter. They blocked our road. Nobody could get in or out. We have one one direction. So traffic is a huge, huge issue at that intersection at Livingston. It's dangerous, it has a lot of activity, and it the numbers are just super high. There was talk about infrastructure of expanding county line

   1:34:30road to support the 54 avenues, things like that. All I ask is before the approval goes on this development, do the instr infrastructure to support it. That would be fine and then we could all get along great. The emergency response times right now are huge. Um year to date there's been like a hundred and seventy-four calls to that senior living facility. This is only October. Well, I guess it's already October. And uh Florida Medical, they've had like 76 emergency calls. So they're using that intersection.

   1:35:01This is emergency activity that's happening. The delays on time is increasing. So please just do the infrastructure. Before it's Approved. And then approve it. All right, we good?

   1:35:16Okay. Okay.

   StarkeyChair

   1:35:17Thank you. Thank you. And next?

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:35:28I have not been sworn in since I was talking to the chicken lady.

   Oakley

   1:35:32Hey,

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:35:33I got chickens, you

   1:35:33know.

   1:35:34We all have chicken. Where

   Oakley

   1:35:35are you in? Please raise your right hand. Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give is the truth, so help you God.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:35:42Yes I do.

   Oakley

   1:35:43Please state your name for the record.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:35:44George Cavaloo, [address removed], which is an easement off of twenty mile level road. I was gonna talk about water and the effects of basically how much development this commission's allowing. and that we're over pumping and stuff, but that's irrelevant. they're addressing traffic and they're talking about the northbound uh Livingston entryway, but You got hundred and seventy eight townhomes, let's just say a hundred and twenty five of those are two f two parent or two a couple.

   1:36:14You have two cars there, that's 250 cars. Most of them are probably gonna go to work eight, n seven, eight, nine o'clock. Now you have two hundred and fifty cars that have to get out. They can go one of three ways. If you wanna come in so you have that problem on Livingston, which is a two lane road. Even on their entrance could be two lane road. If you're coming home, if you could pull up that map, that area, real quick. If you're going

   1:36:44If you're if you're up on 54, you're coming eastbound, the only way to get into that development is a single lane turn for a left turn. Plus if you're going on Huntington, you're making a U-turn. I now People will give you anecdotal evidence. I worked in Tampa. I traveled this route. And I had to make the U-turn to go to 20-mile level.

   1:37:07I used to come up 41, call your uh Willow Bend Parkway. to Collier and then fifty four and make the U turn. That got too tr too much traffic. So I started coming across Livingston, coming up coming across Sunset, coming up Livingston, to hit it so I can make the left turn. I've almost gotten creamed there twice in the last six months. Uh The Right turn lane isn't the problem. It's you're gonna have to make a left. Now you're gonna have more through traffic

   1:37:37going to their development. You're still gonna have the left turn. Going towards if you want to go to Huntington or go westbound. Plus you have the turning lane there where if they're gonna go to Huntington they have to make the U-turn. And then you're gonna have people they're not all gonna come up Livingston, they're gonna come up forty one to to 54, they're gonna make a left turn out of that traffic line. You have one lane. You have a short light. I've sat there in the last year when I was working, I've sat there between

   1:38:08five to six changes of the light. I've sat at Livingston for five to six changes. But also you have another problem downstream on Livingston. If somebody is making a right turn, uh left turn Southbound on to County Line Road, you're looking at a light per per car that wants to make the turn at a lot of times during the day. I know this not anecdotally because I've sat in that traffic. Way to two to three lights if two or three cars are going through. Coming so northbound You

   1:38:38got the same problem. At Collier, uh Well it's called Collier there, County Line and Livingston going through. There's just so much traffic. You're going to add another 250 cars to this. They're going to come one of three ways. And that's you know about the wrap it up. So I did. That's pretty much it. You know, we have we have there's no traffic control on the on the main one that they're worried about, which w they're not worried about, which would be w eastbound on uh on fifty-four, trying to make that left hand

   1:39:08turn or a U-turn.

   StarkeyChair

   1:39:10Okay. Um We're gonna is there anyone else here who wishes to speak to this? Do we have anyone online? Today? I think we're our online is not working today, something's going on there. Um You know, as we're looking at this map, can you zoom in on this a little bit? This is just for my commissioners because I like to harp on this. Uh what happened? I just wanted you to zoom in. We can't zoom we can't make that bigger.

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:39:35No.

   StarkeyChair

   1:39:36All right, this is my little beef. See Park Crescent Drive. Down there on the bottom left.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:39:43Mm-hmm.

   StarkeyChair

   1:39:43And if you look if you look at the map, I'm just looking at it here, um, Barbara's map. Can you can you um put her map up like this again? And you can see it right there. If we had Made it so that those neighbors had to connect? There would have been some connectivity and if they if there was a flooding, people could have come in here, over there and out that way. So they didn't weren't reliant on one road. That is one of the reasons why it's so important that neighborhoods interconnect.

   1:40:14Um They are showing a future connection to the north. And a future connection to the To the west. So that will help connect you know, with flow from the communities around it. And that is very, very important in in my eyes, this coun connectivity. Um all right, we'll let the applicant come back up and address the uh issues that were heard.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:40:40Being that it was all traffic, I want to see if Steve's got anything he can add. I know he's also looked at the Yeah, traffic crashed out as well, so.

   Henry

   1:40:58Yeah, and Steve Henry Linkson Associates. Uh one, talk about the the accidents at the intersection. So we we actually had uh the counties supply the the last five years of accident data. at that intersection. Um and when we look at it, there have been 130 accidents at the intersection over the last five years. So then what we look at is is that a lot of accidents or not? And so what we do is we look at the the number of accidents per million vehicles through the intersection. That's how

   1:41:28DOT looks at intersection. So when you look at that, you look at the number of accidents, 130 accidents over five years, that comes out to be about 1.05 accidents per million vehicles through the intersection. When you look at the D O T and the D O T has gone through the entire state every county, every different type of road, and assessed what the average accident rate is for the different roads. So when you take a six-lane urban arterial roadway for DOT, the

   1:41:58average accident rate is 3.77 accidents per million miles traveled. So from this standpoint This intersection is well below what the average would be for the type of facility for fifty four. So from that standpoint, there are certainly accidents. The reality is the majority of them are rear end, which is what you expect to see. At a signalized intersection. That that's just the reality of signalized intersections. But from a from a rate

   1:42:29standpoint, this is actually not a high accident intersection. From a a um traffic standpoint, uh the the two hundred and fifty cars, that's assuming that everybody leaves their house at the same time. The reality is that's not what happens. Obviously it's over a period of time. We've looked at that. The reality is This number of units has about eighty-three cars leaving or coming and going in the in the morning and about 103 in the afternoon. So much less than the two fifty that they're they're talking about. And again.

   1:43:00We we have come up with mitigation for the intersection. Um you know, are we gonna fix it? No, but we certainly have come up with some mitigation to help. The overall intersection. Thank you.

   StarkeyChair

   1:43:11Um I and thank you. I have a question for The applicant and the engineer, not the traffic engineer. Gina, can you put up the picture that my staff sent you that has the Uh oak trees around the stormwater pond? Um you you've all seen this photo. This is driving up Little Road. It's uh kind of near the entrance of Riverside Village on the right hand side of Little Road. Um so these are stormwater ponds that line Little Road. But look what they did with them. They lined them

   1:43:41with oak trees. So um Uh. I'm just wondering if you're not sure if you're not we can get our applicants and our engineers to do this instead of having those bald stormwater ponds we could put some of our tree canopy back around the edges of the stormwater pods. Is there any issue with that? Um Yeah, I don't know why we don't do this or require this personally. Okay.

   1:44:12Um Good. It's

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:44:15yes? They I'm not I think Barbara needs to do her rebuttal and then you can ask your questions. Okay. Yep.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:44:23That is fine. We just we want to address traffic. We've talked about drainage, we've talked about traffic. Um the county used their mitigation tree mitigation fees and did that years ago. When I was at the county, that's how that pro that's how that came to look like that. Yeah. And

   StarkeyChair

   1:44:37it's

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:44:37it's lovely, right? Yeah, and I don't think I mean my team's saying that's not a an issue.

   StarkeyChair

   1:44:42See them put some trees around their ponds. Yeah. See the ones along the road.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:44:50Anybody else have any other questions for my team?

   StarkeyChair

   1:44:51Uh

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:44:52was that

   StarkeyChair

   1:44:52your rebuttal?

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:44:53Yeah that is. Okay, see.

   1:44:59The signalization project. Signalization says it's $71,000, roadways $100,000. Then there's some other items that get up to over two hundred thousand. Is there anything else we're missing as far as what you guys are doing for improvements?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:45:13So There are four things we're doing. One is we are extending your vision road. So your standards.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:45:20I'm talking about the intersection right now.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:45:24But

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:45:25we're just talking about this one right now.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:45:26Do you have the estimate, yes. So seventy one

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:45:29thousand for signalization.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:45:30Yeah. Well it gets Steve back up here 'cause it's his estimate. So

   Henry

   1:45:40Yes.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:45:41So on your estimate it's seventy-one thousand holes for in signalization. This says roadway a hundred thousand. What is that?

   Henry

   1:45:48That would be i it to mill and resurface the road if needed as part of the restriping.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:45:57Okay, so it's actually less than what you said. Signalization's only seventy one thousand.

   Yeager

   1:46:04And who determines if needed?

   Henry

   1:46:07That would be i in the permitting process as to whether or not that that would be just simply a restriping exercise or whether it'd be a milling and resurfacing. But we wanted obviously wanted to go on the high end of it just in case that it ended up being that we had to do that. So that's why we put that number in there.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:46:24So with the signalization. Compared to the way it is right now, the gentleman was talking about how he sits And turn after turn. With the with the signals. Is your signalization going to improve that and how will it improve it?

   Henry

   1:46:39it will improve it it to again to to a degree it will improve that northbound approach to the intersection. It it's not going to fix the other other movements at the intersection, but it will help That overall inter the overall intersection, it will help it with that movement of the intersection.

   1:46:59Well we certainly have some traffic in that northbound. Again, what we are looking at is not necessarily specifically you know, our traffic. What we're looking at is the oval intersection and we're looking at what can a project of this magnitude do to the intersection to try to help the situation. we looked at the imbalance between the rights and the throughs And that's where we came up with that to try to help balance it. It would then basically be equal volumes between the the northbound left. The northbound then the shared

   1:47:30Through right. and the right. So it kind of balances the volumes at those three in at those three lanes. Again, not fixing the intersection, but simply helping the overall operation given the imbalance of of the traffic at the intersection.

   StarkeyChair

   1:47:44You know, we can't ask 178 units to fix a big problem.

   Henry

   1:47:50But tha that's again we we can't fix a big problem. All we can do is try to come up with a solution. That helps given you know the the circumstances that we've got out there, the geometry and the volumes that we have out there to come up with a solution.

   StarkeyChair

   1:48:05Do we feel that we answered the construction traffic? Because this has become a very big problem for a lot of our constituents. How we're re how we're dealing with construction trip.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:48:16Well here's what you to me here's what you're gonna see.

   StarkeyChair

   1:48:18I just want to make sure we get the wording right.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:48:20So in the morning you got eighty eighty trips coming out, hundred three in the afternoon going back out uh coming back in. Think about the gentleman we just said here with what going out there at that intersection to try to go out there. Sitting through a number of lights. How many more lights? You get twenty cars, let's say. Forty cars, let's say. In daytime traffic getting getting ready to go to school. All those trips are right there and how are they going to get out? And how long is that backup going to be? Now add in construction traffic to go in there as well.

   Henry

   1:48:49Well but but again you you you you're not gonna have construction traffic and our build out traffic and and and just to right address your your your comment there. In the morning, outbound is sixty five cars. So again, the the eighty three was the total in and out. And in the PM it's about forty two cars. So again, yes,

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:49:06fifty five cars going out there. We heard the gentleman talk about how long it takes him to get out there. Now we got sixty five cars going out there. Maybe going to school, maybe going to work, all in there from the seven to nine. Jim Mull in there, how much is that gonna be? And keep this in mind too. You know, US forty one and fifty four, you know bag that tr intersection is, right? We spent how many years trying to get that fixed, trying to get funding, etcetera. Do you know this one is the next worst? At call your own.

   Amanda Hill

   1:49:33Mm-hmm.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:49:34And now you're gonna throw all this stuff here going to the right.

   Henry

   1:49:37Well, again, we're not a collier, we're we're at uh Livingston.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:49:40I understand that's why I said Collier's up there, but I'm saying that intersection is terrible. Now we're taking a lot of these people gonna be heading up that way as well to to compound it even further.

   Henry

   1:49:50Aga again, our our impact on this intersection is extremely minor. We we are actually less than one percent of the capacity of the roadway. So we we are infotential. increase in in the the delay at the intersection.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:50:05You're missing my point. The point is not just for what goes on fifty four. It's all these people that live up there right now that are gonna be trying to get out there and and not aren't going to be able to get out. And then even when the development's done to try to get out, as you say it's not going to fix much. Now you're still gonna get even more traffic backed up there waiting for these people to get out.

   Henry

   1:50:24Again, uh we we are mitigating our impacts to that intersection with with our improvements.

   StarkeyChair

   1:50:30Is there we get a vote?

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:50:32Wait, where's Nick Urin? Is he here? I know there's intersection improvements coming at call your And fifty four, right? And twenty-seven was the the time frame? When's our lap we had that last briefing? There's some turn lane improvements.

   1:50:52Good afternoon.

   Sun Coast

   1:50:54Uh Commissioner Nick Uren, County Engineer. Cower and fifty four turn lane improvements?

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:51:00Didn didn't we discuss

   Sun Coast

   1:51:01We're doing some things some work done at at the intersection of um Collier and County Line. Is that it where where it intersects with Livingston to the south? Is that what you're thinking of?

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:51:13Oh. Potentially I'm I know we'd had some briefings on some on some improvements, but I thought that there were Some turn lane improvements coming in. At fifty four and call you're going northbound.

   Sun Coast

   1:51:26We so we've looked at modifying the the median. On Collier to to make a longer storage area for southbound left turns. I don't know that we've implemented or have a plan to pull the trigger on that one yet. I'll have to get back with you.

   StarkeyChair

   1:51:42Like what we did at fifty four. I thought we

   Sun Coast

   1:51:44had

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:51:44when when we briefed.

   Sun Coast

   1:52:02Yeah, so we are definitely gonna try to increase storage capacity and make the operations of the intersection work a little more efficiently, minimize the conflict points. Yeah.

   StarkeyChair

   1:52:14Um I have a question for Barbara and then um And sorry if I missed this.

   1:52:22Is it possible you can divide it between Twenty Mile and Livingston for a time being? I mean you'd have to make a temporary c

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:52:32So we were asked to keep construction traffic off of twenty mile. But

   StarkeyChair

   1:52:36guys, maybe that helps if some if it's on twenty mile. I don't What's your thoughts on that?

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:52:43I don't think so. No.

   StarkeyChair

   1:52:44No?

   Yeager

   1:52:45It's not fair to the residents.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:52:48Right. So that's we were asked to to use the signalized intersection. Divide it up.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:52:52So is that is that extension where the where the vision route is? Or you is that essentially gonna be like a mini lay down yard?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:52:59What was that?

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:53:01where you're looking at extending Livingston to the north where you're where the project's gonna potentially build part of the Vision Road. I'm assuming that's going to be part of a lay down yard storage. Let me

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:53:13let me get a construction

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   1:53:15and work, right?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:53:18I did forget to say re receive and file the The PowerPoint which I gave to the clerk, so if you wouldn't mind while he's walking up here from the city and filing this, yes.

   StarkeyChair

   1:53:27Thank you. Second. All in favor? Aye.

   project engineer

   1:53:31Commissioner is Jeremy Couch, I'm the civil engineer for the project. I think there is a slight bit of confusion about what we're doing, and I want to really clarify that what we're actually doing. Um can you pull up the aerial? Real quick, please.

   1:53:52Um Okay. And can you zoom in a little bit on 20-mile level and go south to 54? Thank you. Perfect. One more zoom. Okay, great. Okay. So at the north end of twenty mile level there are twenty or twenty-five residents. to go home and to leave. If they want to go to the outlet more right now. What they have to do is they come down the dirt road, They have to make a right. which is West.

   1:54:23They have to go make a U turn. and then go back east to go to dinner at the Outlet Mall. And when they come home at night, Whichever way they come, whether they come up Livingston or where they come east down fifty four, they have to get to Livingston. They have to make a U turn. go back to twenty mile level and go north up the dirt road to their home. That's how they get home today. What we're saying is right now Livingston ends. So if you I'm an expert

   1:54:53at this Right here. Livingston ends right here. The only thing that accesses Livingston right now. This is one of, I think, three access points to Terrabello, not to mention the driveway out here from the Dairy Queen. The only thing that really comes in here is the ALF. It ends. So what we're saying is we're gonna build this road in.

   1:55:19And so instead of those twenty-five people getting dirt trucks running up and down the road and stuff, we're gonna come in from Livingston where the only people using Livingston now generally are the ALF and the people at the commercial site. That's what that condition is, is so that they can have their peace in their dirt road and they don't have to deal with construction traffic and hauling and going up and down the dirt road. That's what that is now.

   StarkeyChair

   1:55:46So there's not a lot of so there's not not a lot of people using Livingston right now.

   project engineer

   1:55:50Nobody's using Livingston. They can't.

   StarkeyChair

   1:55:52Yeah, until their residents come in. So

   project engineer

   1:55:54just bums.

   StarkeyChair

   1:55:54Yeah.

   project engineer

   1:55:55So the

   StarkeyChair

   1:55:57right-of-way.

   project engineer

   1:55:57What will be better though, what what I don't think was said in any of the testimony, is that when we connect, ultimately we are going to connect Livingston, two twenty mile level up here. Now When these people wanna come home that live on twenty mile level, They're not gonna wait here. and make a U turn and then go up the dirt road. They're just gonna go up Livingston and they're gonna be straight home. And on the southbound approach, if you're coming from USF

   1:56:28or from Tampa, You're not gonna have to wait. And make a left. where the racetrack is. Now you're just gonna be able to go straight home. Straight through the intersect. And so that that's the real improvement that we're doing. Yes. Is and so that's what Steve is saying is that that re majiggering is gonna change and improve the intersection.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:56:49Okay. Thank

   project engineer

   1:56:50you.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:56:50When when does when does that l part of Livingston get built?

   project engineer

   1:56:53Immediately. Up front we have to.

   1:56:57So so what it says is we gotta show up. Because we can't get there now, it's woods. We're gonna drop the equipment, we're gonna Clear it and stabilize Livingston. And that will become our construction access. The only thing we're gonna be on 20 mile level for is to connect the utilities to the south. And that's already a utility corridor for the county. Met with them, that's where they want the utilities.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:57:22So anybody's gonna live up above there, they're gonna be able to get on twenty mile level, if they're gonna take a right, they don't even have to go to that living sunlight, they just go to the right and go out.

   project engineer

   1:57:30Right. Now, but once once Livingston is they're not gonna do that. They're gonna go straight up Livingston to twenty mile level. They're gonna be like

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:57:36Well I I'm I'm gonna say I think the long term effect of this whole thing should be that twenty mile level road gets paved because if you can take all those intersection trips that back up here on Livingston that wanna go to the right, if they can have an alternative route going through here, all those turns, now you can free up that intersection a lot better.

   project engineer

   1:57:55So so this commissioner goes way back to the beginning where we had conversation about closing twenty mile level and that was a whole The buckle. So now what we're doing is we're tying twenty mile level back into Livingston. Will showed it on his exhibit. So that option remains there, so now these folks have two ways to get out. They can go down 20-mile level if they don't want to wait at the light, or they can go to Livingston if they want to make a left and go to

   1:58:25the Outlet Mall.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:58:26A anybody who's gonna do through traffic at Livingston in fifty four, if they're gonna go straight through, the best thing is go go obviously going to the light, going across. If they're gonna go take a left, head into the Elder Mall, Livingston's gonna be the way to go. But anybody else in the whole development from above should be coming down this parallel road here. Commissioner Starkey, about interconnectivity. You have this if you have this p other road to the side. Everybody's gonna be able to take a right turn if it's paved is gonna go down that way and take the right turn and get out. And that would free up that intersection

   1:58:57a lot better than it's gonna get. I don't know.

   project engineer

   1:59:00Commissioner, I don't think there's a lot of southbound volume now on on Livingston. I don't think there's anything there in the morning. It's just ALF. They're old people. They don't go anywhere.

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:59:07No no no no. I'm not I'm not s I'm not saying the ALF's movement, 'cause that's one of the things I mean, you talk about trips Th those are very minimal trips. I'm talking about everybody that's gonna live in this development, that's gonna live above it already, when they come down, if they all come down to Livingston, that intersection gets Right. Jacked up bad. And all you've got to do, all you're doing right now is striping and and other improvements. What I'm saying is, let me finish. As I'm saying is twenty mile road is a good reliever road for anybody who's gonna come out on fifty four and take

   project engineer

   1:59:37the

   MarianoVice Chair

   1:59:37right turn and go out.

   project engineer

   1:59:39The improvements we're doing's on the south side of fifty-four. On the north side, you got what Steve said, sixty-five vehicles over a two hour period. That's one car every two minutes that are coming down to I believe there's Three lanes? Two there's two lanes at that north north leg? So you're gonna take R sixty five Plus whoever's coming out of the ALF. in the morning, plus the twenty five homes up north. There's not gonna be any traffic there. They're gonna they're gonna be able to make this left. And they're

   2:00:09gonna be dancing because they don't have to go make the U turn.

   MarianoVice Chair

   2:00:12I'm I'm gonna I'm I'm good with the left. Sorry. Oh sorry. No, I'm I'm good with the left. I'm just saying For everybody taking right. If you if you pull up the map for the intersection, please. Or is there anything hi is there anything changing on the north part here? on Living Sten in fifty four. Is anything changing there at all?

   David Allen

   2:00:29Uh Chair Starkey. Chair Starkey, if I may. I think I think but um um Commissioner Mariano is referring to is just just making sure that twenty mile level road connects back into um uh Livingston right here. And I think if we look at the

   StarkeyChair

   2:00:46you said it does up at the top

   David Allen

   2:00:48of the plan that they're they're showing they showing

   StarkeyChair

   2:00:50them two options

   David Allen

   2:00:51of the of the site they do have that connection.

   StarkeyChair

   2:00:54As a matter of fact, do we even need living uh two mile, twenty mile, whatever, south of that? Does anyone live on that a area between Oh wait, between where twenty mile and living center are gonna connect and fifty four?

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   2:01:07No.

   StarkeyChair

   2:01:08We don't even need that there.

   2:01:12Well well. Yes, if someone wants to go down a dirt road they can choose to, I guess.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:01:18Right. So there there is no it's a that's a commercial property in that stretch.

   StarkeyChair

   2:01:21It leaves up

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   2:01:22options.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:01:22Yeah it leaves an option. It was important when we met with the neighbors, it was very important and they've actually looked at my conditions of approval and commented on them because at one point I didn't have it written right. It is important to those residents that live north of us that twenty mile of a road stay, so they have options.

   StarkeyChair

   2:01:36Yeah.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:01:36So we designed everything and did all of this timing on our construction and everything so we could really make things work.

   StarkeyChair

   2:01:42Commissioner Weightman, it's it's your um it's your district. Do you want to make a motion?

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   2:01:47Yeah, so I appreciate all the emails and everybody who's reached in and and and reached in out about for this project. DNA future land use in this whole area is R6, residential six, and they're coming in three point three point eight units per acre, which is well under that. And um the project is compatible and certainly not appropriate for the future. And so with that, I'll move approval.

   StarkeyChair

   2:02:15Second. And um I think that you're improving the drainage by s holding this the storage back. I'm sorry you have to do that. Um When we have a neighbor who's not being cooperative, uh also

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   2:02:28think Madam Chairman on the motion. Does that include the change to the timing of the condition the intersection improvement? That it's part of the first building inspection of the first unit? That Barbara offered up prior previously? Yes. Well they're not going to be able to do that.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   2:02:44Those have to be done before any CEOs issued all of those.

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   2:02:48Right. She she had offered up during previously to do

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   2:02:51different than what was in your agenda package, is is David's point.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:02:57Yeah the specific languages prior to the final building inspection for the first residential unit Um And we do building inspection because you can't do it at CO, so it's the final building inspection for the first residential unit, would be the language you could incorporate in your motion.

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   2:03:11I just want to make sure the motion included that change. It does. Okay. Further discussion.

   StarkeyChair

   2:03:17Um well I'm I'm still stating mine uh under discussion too. So so uh uh it improves the drainage and it I think it makes it safer for residents, they don't have to do U-turns anymore. Commissioner Mariano.

   MarianoVice Chair

   2:03:30These are the improvements to These improvements at the south part of the road. What we're seeing on the map here, right? Not the north. Not with the synta not with the development, is that correct?

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   2:03:41No, there's improvements at day eleven.

   StarkeyChair

   2:03:47Well

   MarianoVice Chair

   2:03:48On the map that's on the screen right now, these improvements that I'm seeing here, are those from

   StarkeyChair

   2:03:52striping

   MarianoVice Chair

   2:03:52north heading southbound? Is Is that southbound of fifty four?

   2:04:00Right. So this part of the Living Center goes up to connect.

   Henry

   2:04:03That's yeah, that's

   MarianoVice Chair

   2:04:05Okay. Northbound. South going north.

   2:04:11It's a south it's is it a southbound lane? No, it it

   Henry

   2:04:15it's if you're on the south. North fifty four. So

   MarianoVice Chair

   2:04:20it's to the south of this in it's not where this development is gonna be, it's to the other side of the road. Correct, yes, correct, yes. So I think I d I don't know I don't know why this is being done so much, but I'll just say this. I think our money would be much better spent having that twenty mile road, getting it paved where more people are gonna take that right turn to get out and relieve the traffic that's above there than it is for down here. I think the focus should be it to the to the to the northern part. With the development is not a good idea. To this section down here. I don't I don't I don't get why

   2:04:50we're doing it this way.

   StarkeyChair

   2:04:54It's seventy one thousand dollars, right?

   MarianoVice Chair

   2:04:56No, it's about two hundred and twenty some thousand thousand. It's it's it's it's over it's

   StarkeyChair

   2:05:00over two hundred thousand.

   MarianoVice Chair

   2:05:02I I'm saying that

   StarkeyChair

   2:05:03put it on my on twenty mile

   MarianoVice Chair

   2:05:04on twenty mile road, 'cause like as you say, if you have more road ways to get in and out. It's better. And if you have all those people that are gonna come down to that intersection that's from where they are, all those things are coming down that one light in Livingston, if they have an alternative way to take the right turn out, it's a much better use of money, I think. What can

   StarkeyChair

   2:05:21we do on the right turn? What can we do for two hundred and something thousand on twenty mile road? Just asking. I don't wanna charge it more money. If the if the money's better spent. Is the money better spent improving twenty mile road? I think that's Commissioner Mariano's suggestion.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   2:05:39I I think if there's any improvement on twenty mile level road is to the north to be able to figure out to get into to Car go up to the top and go go west somehow. Oh, to the north?

   MarianoVice Chair

   2:05:52I I I won't argue with that either. But I mean but what we're doing right here doesn't make sense to what's

   StarkeyChair

   2:05:56why I said it didn't affect that those sout southern things didn't affect the residents to

   MarianoVice Chair

   2:06:00the north. So I'm gonna say this as this vote comes up because of the stormwater, because of the traffic, I'm not happy with what I'm seeing here. We're just gonna make a situation worse where I think there's potential to something better. Well I I

   StarkeyChair

   2:06:11don't

   Unidentified speaker

   2:06:12You're not close enough.

   StarkeyChair

   2:06:13I don't see why we're making the situation worse because no one's using liv they're not we're making it better, they're now gonna have two options to get out.

   Unidentified speaker

   2:06:21Yeah. That's correct.

   StarkeyChair

   2:06:23Yeah, so okay. Okay, four so we have a motion and a second. Um the question is Do we wanna uh amend the motion to say take the money? That was gonna be used south and let staff work with the applicant to see if there's a better use of that money to help Twenty Mile Road. Leave it flexible. And then we can get this through? What do you think?

   Yeager

   2:06:49Uh

   2:06:52I'm not comfortable saying yes and I after the

   StarkeyChair

   2:06:55Well we have I think we have three threes, so that was mm-hmm Three A's. I'm just at trying to to understand I think Commissioner Weightman had a good idea.

   MarianoVice Chair

   2:07:06I think and I think your idea is good to amend the motion and make that happen. Yeah.

   StarkeyChair

   2:07:09It doesn't They would just work together. I don't want to hold them up. They would just work together to see if that money is better spent on a on improving twenty mile road somewhere. I don't know where that would be right now.

   2:07:24Yeah.

   Mike Carballa

   2:07:25I just don't know by what standard you would determine would be optimal. Uh

   StarkeyChair

   2:07:28that's up to staff and the engineers and the applicant. Just given flexibility to that two seventy one. If that's the number.

   2:07:40Or do you want to leave it where you're fixing the stripe being south of fifty four?

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   2:07:48Well that's where the that's where the public said that there was a failure. It's that left hand turn movement.

   StarkeyChair

   2:07:54That's got nothing to do with this project.

   Mike Carballa

   2:07:56So I've conversed with the accounting engineer. I mean listen what the applicant has proposed is you know, we we think it's sound. If you want, staff can look at improvements on Tony Wile level and then we can determine if that makes sense from a county perspective. But to I I just uh I don't think I'd be comfortable with with really no standard to to determine which would be better. The applicants propose something that I think works and and will work in the meantime. We can take board direction to Commissioner Mariano's point here and take a look

   2:08:26at twenty mile level road necessarily I mean I to not hold them up, but that would just be my thought.

   MarianoVice Chair

   2:08:31But you You're give they're giving the engineers the flexibility to make that decision, not coming back to us. You guys have the flexibility to decide what you want to do. They're not going to do it till the first construction. CEO's issued anyway, so you got plenty of time to work it out.

   Yeager

   2:08:43And honestly in the past we haven't been kept abreast of things before and things have either changed or and so I d I'm not comfortable with that either.

   StarkeyChair

   2:08:55Well i I have to ask the motion maker if he accepts an amendment. And if he doesn't, then we'll take the vote. If it if it passes, we'll move on. If it fails, we take another motion. I don't see anybody

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   2:09:07I don't see anybody in the stand saying yay or nay.

   2:09:12I I'd much rather see h the investment uh call your

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:09:17Yeah, so barbable height for the applicant. We spent four months working on this with DOT. I think your staff just said they they think the improvement that we proposed is is a good improvement. They're recommending it? We'd like to stay the course with what we've worked very hard on and and very thoughtfully on. That's what we'd like to do, but Do I want to you know? Do we not want to be flexible?

   2:09:45I mean at the end of the day Yeah, we can go either way. Um if we want to be flexible and have the either or, that's fine. But we d I we do stand behind and the staff stand behind is what we what we brought for brought to you today.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   2:10:01What we'll What would the improvements be?

   Mike Carballa

   2:10:06Uh yeah, I I don't know. We we would have to look at it. I mean to to Barbara's point, you know, it it's been looked at, but if the board wants us to sit down and scratch our heads again with it and Either we agree that the original course of action was was right or if there's some modification that needs to be made jointly then within the boundaries of what they They're proposing then we can we can do that.

   Yeager

   2:10:28And I I have a comment because this is frustrating for me. I that's great that you guys have worked hard and you guys have worked hard, but we're the ones that get the emails. And and our name is on it and I just need to uh I wanna make sure that This project is good quality, that the neighbors can get out, we're not causing more congestion, that what we say is gonna happen, and I'm afraid if this goes back to staff, we're never gonna see it again. and it might just stay status quo. And like Commissioner Mariano had

   2:10:58an idea, like if it if if it's not worth it, then we might have just approved something that is gonna stay like this.

   StarkeyChair

   2:11:06Okay, am I missing something? Because these residents are not coming down Livingston. This resident is coming down. Twenty mile, there is no light. They're they're going down and they're making a U turn on fifty four. So We're gonna allow them to come down Livingston and be at a signalized intersection.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   2:11:25Or go through with floor medical plaza and

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:11:28that is much better. So, yeah. And my clients that my clients that segment that we're doing on Livingston Avenue, the client's paying for. That's not an inexpensive segment of roads.

   StarkeyChair

   2:11:41Um I just trying to Add in the flexibility, but if you don't want to do it. I can call the call the butt.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   2:11:48I'll leave my

   2:11:48easy things.

   2:11:50I

   StarkeyChair

   2:11:50was.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   2:11:51Alright, I'm I'm in the motion to for the flexibility option. Uh and to keep If it does change the course in the motion. that staffer whoever appropriate update. All five of us and that's in

   Yeager

   2:12:06But then does it go to another vote? Or does it what's

   Oakley

   2:12:10gonna be

   2:12:13Mr. Chairman Mariano what they do? Because now you're left with two options. You you're not sure what you're going to get. And we're going to vote.

   StarkeyChair

   2:12:23It's either the intersection improvement as presented. Which is restriping, right?

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:12:27Restriping and signal and signal changes. We can do that

   StarkeyChair

   2:12:29ourselves.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:12:30Or Or paving of paving of twenty mile level road.

   Oakley

   2:12:35Just on that part.

   2:12:38It

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   2:12:38leaves the potential the southern portion of twenty mile level road or some level of improvement like

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:12:48That would be what we would be discussing with staff to see if that was a good alternative. For that money. And if it's not, they'll go ahead and do the uh And we'll do the intersection that everybody reviewed and Still think it's a good improvement.

   StarkeyChair

   2:13:04I mean It does help other citizens. Which at the end of the day is a good thing.

   WeightmanSecond Vice Chair

   2:13:12Yeah. So the motion is amended.