PEG-24-0249

Every appearance1 of 1 are in a recording

TranscriptWhat was said at each appearance is below it. Machine transcription, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 92% of 443 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.

1. 1Feb 20, 2024
   Board of County CommissionersR38Regular businessApproved

   Approved minutes

   Approved Staff’s recommendation under the pretense that this is an evolving and living

   Open this item →▶ Play from 53:25
   ▶ 53:251h 1m1/2

   OakleyChair

   53:25Our regular items are thirty-eight.

   OakleyChair

   53:41Good morning, Mr. Chairman.

   53:46Um item P th or R 38 is going to be a discussion on draft policy PM31 standards for horizontal apartments. Um recent in in various recent BCC meetings, uh the board has inquired on the status of development standards for new types of multifamily products that are often proposed through MPUDs. Um In particular, the subject of horizontal apartments. And so today we're bringing forward a draft policy memorandum

   54:16that's going to help guide. the Planning and Economic Growth staff to negotiate uh MPUD conditions of approval to help deal with uh this type of product. In the county. Uh on the overhead you'll see the areas of discussion for today that will be covered in the draft policy memo. There's four particular items that require input from the Board of County Commissioners, actually three. Um, but I'll list four and I'll explain why in a second. A mandate

   54:47for amenities for um horizontal apartments uh per prior direction from the board of county commissioners. Um The second one is a clarification of the walkways and corridors between the fronts of each structure. The third is addition to architectural standards for two story structures. And then the fourth item is uh clarification for plaiding for horizontal apartments. Um and we'll I'll call them out as we make our way through the presentation here. So we're going to start off with a definition. These slides are full of

   55:17words. I have them up there in case our friends and neighbors at home want to see what's in the memo. That's the top part. But my bullet points sort of summarize what the discussion is. So we'll start off with the definition. Horizontal apartments are a type of build-to-rent multifamily product that offer an alternative to garden-style apartments. And basically our the built rent horizontal apartment product is about eleven to thirteen dwelling units per gross acre as compared to the vertical apartments, the standard garden style that

   55:47you might see around uh the county, which come in at about fifteen to twenty four dwelling units per gross acre. Uh the build to rent Uh horizontal apartments are not stacked units. They're ho distributed horizontally across the extent of the property. Uh and as such, they come in little little house look looking like buildings that are about one or two stories tall with one to three bedrooms. They'll be about the same size as any apartment unit.

   OakleyChair

   56:14And they're separated.

   OakleyChair

   56:15And they're separated, that's correct. They're detached.

   56:20There'll be a separation, yeah. Right. An air gap, if you will. Right. Um They're distributed across the entire extent of the site and they often carry not often but always carry the same types of amenities as as vertical apartments, things like uh lounge rooms, pools, so on and so forth. So that's the definition of what these are. Importantly, and we'll come across this, these are not single family detached products. They're not single family detached products. This is a multifamily

   56:50product. because they're located on a single parcel of common own under common ownership. as a typical multifamily product would be uh organized. And as a result, these don't have any HOAs or uh C D D's homeowners associations or community development districts because they are operated and managed by individual companies, so management companies working with them. Um this is where we're going to add um a mandate for amenities, that all horizontal

   57:21apartments shall provide amenities. This was provided in a direction by the Board of County Commissioners. At the January 24, or excuse me, April 18, 2023, Board of County Commissioners meeting when we developed the policy guidance for platted build-to-rent developments. So in this paragraph of management is not there today, but we'll we're going to add the mandate for amenities to for horizontal apartments. In terms of the site planning requirements, I have here uh not

   57:51listed in bullet points but highlighted all of the different uh aspects that um need to be discussed. So Horizontal apartments shall not be organized with more than three units deep from the parking lot. This is a key uh facet of horizontal apartments that they Uh do not have individualized driveways or individualized garages. They are actually aligned on a parking aisle or a or a drive aisle. And so you don't want more than three units deep off of that parking lot. Likewise,

   58:21you don't really want three housing units deep on either side of a linear park. Uh after three units things become a little bit more difficult to engineer, but also from a resident uh perspective. you know, to carry your groceries uh that far down from the parking lot can be uh a little onerous. Item C says 10 foot minimum walkway corridors. This is one of the clarifications that we need from the Board of County Commissioners. The uh provision here talks about

   58:51the walkway uh between the buildings. So this could either mean the sidewalk to be ten feet wide, and then you have landscaping further out with the doors, etc. of each of the units, or it's ten feet front to front, facade to facade. There was some discussion that this should be increased f to fifteen or twenty feet facade to facade. Um Letter s letter D there is to connect any available similar external grid networks. So what

   59:22we're talking about here is that each of these developments are going to have internal pedestrian and bicycle uh amenities, uh walkways, networks, and so on and so forth, and that these should actually be connected to the to the county wide network that is beyond their property limits. Uh as I mentioned before, horizontal apartments are not single family detached products because they do not have individual driveways or garages. They are lined up on parking lots. Uh and then finally F G H and I are basically

   59:52requirements to follow various land development co provisions as they relate to the the vehicular areas, the parking areas, the drive aisles and so on, landscaping and so on and so forth.

   OakleyChair

   1:00:03A good example of this is on pitch four, south of pitch four on this side of four um yeah, this side of forty one.

   OakleyChair

   1:00:10Yes.

   OakleyChair

   1:00:10To the south. I forget the name of that project, but it's a very nice project and the homes are all concrete construction and very nice homes when you walk in 'em. So

   OakleyChair

   1:00:21As an example, yes. Um in terms of the dimensional standards, uh these are some of the standards that we've worked with the industry stakeholders. Uh lot coverage should be limited or to, or excuse me, building coverage should be limited to 55% of the total project area, with building setback lines established from the external uh property boundaries, front setback 20 feet, side 15, rear 10 feet, and then internal to the site, building to building, the minimum separation should be 10 feet. Maximum building

   1:00:51height should not exceed 35 feet, which is approximately a two-story structure. Uh, and as I mentioned previously, a ten foot minimum building separation.

   1:01:02In terms of the architectural standards, again, slide full of words, but the bullets on the side uh say it all. This is these is this is all language copied from policy memo twenty-six, um which discussed the um single family residential lots.

   1:01:21uh lot sizes and allowances in MPUDs basically a monotony avoidance standards. So this is all copy paste uh from that memo into this one to discuss whoops. To discuss how to avoid monotony within these developments. Uh here one of the clarifications uh that we need from from the board today is uh to add an architectural standard that says that two story structures uh should not be entirely Um Made of uh stucco, basically.

   1:01:54Uh and then finally platding and the live local considerations um that were uh that are included in this draft memo. So as noted previously um we have answered the question as it relates to single family detached build-to-rent products and the definitive conclusion of the board was that these should be platted developments. Horizontal apartments are not platted developments. Uh excuse me, they're not single family detached developments, they are multifamily products. As

   1:02:24such, um the memos currently the draft memo states that these should not be plaited. for individual lots as this would make this d uh product type uh unfeasible uh to build. However, uh if this development were to be uh sold off in the future, the state condo plating uh standards could be applied uh in this development. And then finally the Live Local Act considerations. I haven't outlined all of the different provisions that we already include in

   1:02:54various projects in the memo for the purposes of time and space. But basically, we're going to carry all of the provisions and considerations that we already make for Live Local into these types of products as well in the conditions of approval for MPUDs.

   1:03:14Lastly, in terms of applicability Basically, if the if first round comments have not yet been received as of February 2024. 2024, then these standards would be applicable. This has been the standard provision in past policy memo guidance. So we're carrying forward here. It's at the pleasure of the board if we want to make an adjustment to that applicability clause. And then lastly, this is just an example project. This is still well stationed.

   1:03:46This was approved recently maybe about a year or two ago by the Board of County Commissioners. It was one of the first built-to-rent horizontal apartment type of projects that the board saw. This is over at uh on the at the southeast corner, basically, not quite at the southeast corner, just a little south of it, of Old Pasco Road and State Road 52. This development was a model by which we worked with the industry stakeholders to develop the some of the standards that uh were presented today. And

   1:04:16that'll complete my presentation. on the draft policy memo, inviting comments from the board.

   Starkey

   1:04:23Um can you please go back to the list of the ones that you said we needed to discuss and you and I discussed some of these in our meeting that we need to so um I think one one was the garage and and oh the spacing. So Oh yeah.

   1:04:45So when we were when we were reading that. The Okay, uh ten foot minimum walkway quarters between structures front to front. So um we wanted to be sure that that there was an enough space between the buildings and it seems like One of the things we're discussing is that a ten foot walkway? Or ten foot from facade to facade, right? So it's gonna be a ten f A

   1:05:16ten foot. Sidewalk. Or five foot sidewalk with landscaping on each side? What what

   OakleyChair

   1:05:22The example I saw on the Starkey was uh it had a walkway in it but it did have uh I think some shrubbery on both sides of the walkway as it goes back.

   Starkey

   1:05:32Well I think we need to set you know, we need to be clear what we're asking for there.

   OakleyChair

   1:05:35I I think in in some of the uh product types that you can find on the internet by just going to their various web the various websites of these companies that build these, there they tend to show uh a distance that appears to be ten feet facade to facade with a five foot sidewalk running down the center and a little bit of landscaping on each side. Right. And the doorways are sort of recessed into the buildings. Um So that the doors don't actually open out onto the sidewalks. They're recessed in,

   1:06:05so they're they're never impeding the flow of that sidewalk. Yeah.

   Starkey

   1:06:12I guess I guess when you're in an apartment because so these are what My husband and other people he could call that a deconstructed apartment building. So I guess when you're in an apartment building and you're walking down an An interior hallway, which my daughter lived in in Starkey Ranch and there was an interior hallway was just all concrete. How far apart are those from one side to another?

   OakleyChair

   1:06:40Uh I

   Starkey

   1:06:40is there no minimum in design the those walkways within apartment buildings in law? No?

   Starkey

   1:06:48Well.

   Starkey

   1:06:50Well, that's interesting.

   Roy Major

   1:06:55Mr. Chairman Roy Major, Development Services. I think that that minimum is is by building code. And the walk away minimums for building code. Yeah, I think that's also gonna vary per per construction project, anywhere from five feet is the absolute minimum for a sidewalk. And so for apartment, I think that varies. I think what we're going for here is facade to facade. In the board's opinion, is ten feet a a viable number? Should it be, you know, more

   1:07:25than ten feet, fifteen feet, facade to facade? And again typically you're gonna have a walkway down the middle. So five feet down the middle And whatever remains will be in between the

   Starkey

   1:07:37Well I'm gonna say it needs to be a little more because how are you gonna get any trees in there? Or I mean if you only have

   OakleyChair

   1:07:45You're not

   Starkey

   1:07:45going

   1:07:46to be able to do that.

   1:07:47Two and a half feet. Uh if you have a five foot sidewalk You're gonna have two and a half feet of dirt on one side and two and a half feet of dirt on the other. Mulch. I mean is it gonna be is everyone gonna have gutters? Are we gonna require gutters? And what what's gonna grow in two and a half feet? So I think it's gonna look like army barracks if we don't have a little more space. A little it's gotta be a little softer. Yeah.

   OakleyChair

   1:08:13Well you won't I don't believe you're gonna find trees like oak trees and things of that nature put placed in between Apartment complex like that.

   Starkey

   1:08:22Well, okay. So

   OakleyChair

   1:08:24if you think about it, it'll grow bigger than that. So

   Starkey

   1:08:27Uh can you go back to that picture that you had of the The other one? I just don't think two and a half feet is enough from the sidewalk to the facade. The picture of the one that you said was the model?

   Weightman

   1:08:41Oh yeah, the memory.

   Mariano

   1:08:45Mr. Cairden. Yeah sure. Yeah you're cre you're creating alleys with five foot wide sidelines.

   Starkey

   1:08:49That's more than ten foot.

   Mariano

   1:08:51Imagine a young family walking down that that path and then you get two families coming together. Yeah. How's that gonna work?

   OakleyChair

   1:08:57Yeah. How are they gonna pass?

   Mariano

   1:08:59Slums of the future.

   OakleyChair

   1:09:03So if you change that that From ten feet to change that to twelve or fourteen or even fifteen. You're gonna change the number of units you can get per acre. Yeah. Yes,

   OakleyChair

   1:09:17it's going to uh uh it'll affect the density a little bit.

   OakleyChair

   1:09:19Um

   OakleyChair

   1:09:22Right. Should still keep

   OakleyChair

   1:09:24that big trees in that walkway in between those apartments. So

   OakleyChair

   1:09:29Right. But this is one of the clarifications that sort of at the pleasure of the board to Is ten feet enough? Should we do fifteen? Should we do twenty? Or another number.

   Weightman

   1:09:41Chair. Yeah.

   1:09:44I'm not a big fan of this project. I mean what do these sit on? Twenty five, thirty acres? So it's just sprawling the rental. Variously throughout. Pasco County. No secret, I'm a huge advocate for ownership and home ownership here.

   1:10:03There there's got to be like when we went through the the build to rent exercise last year when when the product wasn't platted. I'm I'm really stuck on having some level of platting on this type of product. Um because I'm nervous about what the f when they're built they look nice, but I'm nervous about the future. I'm worried about the quality eroding away, I'm worried about the maintenance, you know, I'm worried about ownership as it changes hands because it becomes a portfolio asset. and

   1:10:33we have several of these projects all over the county in You know, We we don't know. I appreciate him only being two stories.

   1:10:45But I just

   1:10:49I'm not overly excited about about this type of product and large large amounts of rental generally. So Again, I just think there needs to be some level of plat where it's condo plat or you are going to play house and then you need to follow our single family home guidelines. So thank you. That's it.

   Starkey

   1:11:07Well I'm not a I'm not ag in agreement with platting these. This is I think there's a lot of people who would like to live like this.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:11:14Oh yeah.

   Starkey

   1:11:15Um I have a lot of girlfriends who we we we were gonna do one at one time. Um and I think we sent the Plat the the plan to Sonia. Um I'm not sure what good resolution it is. Um but I do think that we're taking care of the rules by requiring if that there always be a property management company running the whole thing. Um When you get when you get houses that are bought by corporations on streets,

   1:11:46which we have a lot here. I I I don't I think you lose the level of uh um Um can you zoom zoom in more on the Right. So this was our um attempt at a what I thought was a very good quality live loc um rental community. Very you remember the this is not gonna be built anymore, so don't be freaking out over this. But it was a very good design. What I liked about this is the

   1:12:16amount of open space that they had and um and the housing product is mixed. So it's not every building doesn't look the same as the one next to it. You have some one stories, you have some two stories, you have some with garages, you have duplexes, you have quadruple it it just a big mixture of product type, so it's um not monotonous and frankly and everyone had a front porch. So I'm sad that this isn't gonna happen but um 'cause I will tell you right now the money for

   1:12:46this kind of product is is not there right now. But I do th so I do think you can design these In a um A nice way. Uh as long as we put some parameters in there. And for me, ten feet from door to door. I don't mind I don't mind it from side to side. But ten feet from door to door is just not enough. Um

   OakleyChair

   1:13:08door

   Starkey

   1:13:08huh?

   OakleyChair

   1:13:09What do you mean door to door?

   Starkey

   1:13:10Well that's what it is right now. The front of a front of one of these to a front of one of these is ten feet right now.

   OakleyChair

   1:13:18Yeah. Well the product I've seen over on Fitch Four Um It was a very nice product. I walked in it. Uh again it was all block construction. Ten foot ceiling.

   Starkey

   1:13:31Are you talking about n the next Metro one? Mm-hmm.

   OakleyChair

   1:13:34No it yeah, that's the one that

   Starkey

   1:13:36I didn't I didn't like that s that layout but

   OakleyChair

   1:13:40It looked very nice.

   1:13:43you know, retiree age or whatever and and just you and your wife or something.

   Starkey

   1:13:48Yeah, and your dog. 'Cause these are great for people who have pets.

   OakleyChair

   1:13:50They have amenity with a pool and a workout room and all that and that product. So I hear that. I thought it was a very nice product, so very well built. Mr.

   Mariano

   1:13:59Chairman? Yes. So l let's say it is it's a very nice product right now, right? Let's go thirty years down the road. Things may change. Market drops, all of a sudden it goes. The other thing the other thing I can think of is think about a senior. Right now if a senior owns his own their own house and they're homesteaded, they're protected, they know they can live there for a long time. If the market, like it's done in the past five or six years, has gone through the roof or our our rental market is actually higher than Tampa, all of a sudden what you've done and the prices go up on it, those

   1:14:29seniors right r right there, just like we saw the lady this morning's gonna move out because of insurance, now because of rent going up, they're gonna have to go. So what's gonna happen? They're gonna have to find somewhere else to go. If you if you have home ownership, whether it be a town home or frankly a forty-five foot lot, it's a lot more for secure for people to either start their family or keep their retirement and know they're in a secure place. Right now we're seeing live local, right? We don't know what's gonna happen yet. Right? If that goes and they you know we got lucky with I think we did a good job

   1:15:00fighting it out front. uh getting the word out to kind of like create that awareness and we only didn't have any anything more than two applications we originally had. But what if next year you get twenty of these things coming in and they come forward? And what if the legislature puts a clause in there that you can have all the internal components you want to protect yourselves from going live local and the legislature wipes all that out and they change law, but you can't put that in and that becomes null and void. Now what have you got? Then now you keep on these things up with rental properties, it goes the other way. I want to see people

   1:15:30own their home. I want to start the family.

   Starkey

   1:15:32Well, we're gonna have discussion about our surplus property here in just a little bit. So I'm glad you guys feel that we should have homeownership. But I'm gonna tell you there are there are people who um say just moved to the county. They don't want to live in a third floor of an apartment complex. They want to they have may have pets and they want to live in a community before they buy. I mean, I just met the president of PHSC and he's renting before before he buys. I I have girlfriends and uh who have no kids,

   1:16:02have a lot of equity in their house. Um they they want to get their equity out, but live in a place that they feel is safe. I think these are very safe. And um are looking forward to maybe having this opportunity to live in a place like this. So I think there's there's a market for it. There's a market under it. I I I I really do think there's a market for it. Young professionals, people who are working from home, again, who have pets that don't want to be in apartment complex. So Um We just have to put some guidelines around there to

   1:16:32make sure

   OakleyChair

   1:16:33size what size property is this this is on? She's not sure. Is it like a twenty acre

   OakleyChair

   1:16:39piece or what? Yeah, these projects typically come what fifteen, twenty acres or so plus.

   Roy Major

   1:16:46The the the the kind of desired spots are about twenty-five twenty-five acres is is the sweet spot, about two hundred and twenty-five to two hundred fifty units is Is typically what what they're going for. Yeah.

   OakleyChair

   1:17:00Well the one I visited was was very nice. I would not have mind living in that apartment complex. I mean, it was very nice. Walk in at ten foot ceilings. all glass r opening for the family room and the kitchen area and all. You thought you were in a much bigger place than a thousand square feet, so I I was really impressed with it and it was very well run, 'cause you could tell that with the pool and the facilities they had for for their residents. So

   Starkey

   1:17:30so the questions we you wanted us to decide were one, the space from door to door. Right. The width. So I would say minimum of fifteen feet. Fifteen?

   Mariano

   1:17:41Mr. Chairman Mariano?

   Starkey

   1:17:42Yes, sir.

   Mariano

   1:17:43So I remember when I did my safe homes and I put a new front door on, and I think the way it was was my door at the time was an infolding door. And hurricane codes was better if it was a door that went out.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:17:57That's correct.

   Mariano

   1:17:58Okay, so you're taking these doors in, is it gonna make it these things m less vul more vulnerable to hurricanes than the L-Faces? Is it gonna take you through that insurance?

   OakleyChair

   1:18:08No, no, th the images that are I was trying to describe images from the different company websites that build these things. The the door is recessed in. In other words, there's a Like a porch, yeah. Where the door isn't right on the walkway or on the corridor. It may itself be about Three feet, four feet. Back. Deep. Deep. Yeah. Into the into the structure itself. The ones I

   OakleyChair

   1:18:33saw, they actually had a couple of chairs you could sit out by the by the doorway there. It's

   OakleyChair

   1:18:39still opening the proper way, swinging out, right? But it's not swinging out into the walkways, into the corridors where the travel is taking place.

   OakleyChair

   1:18:49It doesn't go any further out than the wall of the

   1:19:02But it doesn't come past the wall and the department. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you, Commissioner.

   Starkey

   1:19:06But I still think you need more than ten feet. Oh I uh absolutely Yeah. So fifteen feet. Okay. Front front to front. Uh that's that's understandable. I don't remember what you had side to side.

   OakleyChair

   1:19:18It's ten feet side to side.

   Starkey

   1:19:20Are we requiring gutters?

   OakleyChair

   1:19:25Huh? Not in this memorandum.

   OakleyChair

   1:19:26Don't they have um drains there close by 'cause if not, that water knoll's gonna be Covering those sidewalks and all. I don't know if that's part of the construction or not.

   Roy Major

   1:19:38We've seen them done both ways with with yard drains in between the units. And that's why when when Terry was talking about you get these things more than three units deep, it's kind of hard to engineer because you a lot of times the grading as such you'll need yard drains.

   OakleyChair

   1:19:52Right.

   Roy Major

   1:19:52Um also those who do choose to use gutters will often put the downspouts into the yard drain system. There's no requirement for gutters in in the Florida Building Code. And so it's just a preference of that of that developer. Right.

   Starkey

   1:20:07They could have those chains. Those look so cool. Okay, what else was uh Kelly?

   Mariano

   1:20:13So I think the gutters are g is a good thing because let's face it, we've seen all right, so I was at one of these complex, if you look in the backyard, all the gutters were there and all the multi was there. It was all pushed right away from the rain. Uh huh. So you don't have control of that rain. A lot of

   OakleyChair

   1:20:27them

   Mariano

   1:20:28I think

   OakleyChair

   1:20:28a lot of them use uh a lot of them use stone rather than mulch because mulch floats when the water gets high and there's hotter. Soil

   Starkey

   1:20:36but it's a point. There's a lot of roof coverage here. And so is

   OakleyChair

   1:20:39any requirement in building code for that, Mr. Major? No sir.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:20:44The board used to have a requirement in the LDC for gutters on single found.

   1:20:52Walkway and corridors,

   Weightman

   1:20:53architectural design standards for two

   OakleyChair

   1:20:55story and

   Weightman

   1:20:56party.

   Starkey

   1:20:59Am I uh I don't know if

   OakleyChair

   1:21:00you're

   Mariano

   1:21:01so as far as the three D I'm not a fan of three D beither.

   OakleyChair

   1:21:05Oh, there's been more than two.

   Starkey

   1:21:08You're not a fan of what?

   OakleyChair

   1:21:10He's not a fan of three D. I mean you park out in a parking lot and you gotta carry groceries. Whatever that what would be the length of these units, you know, offhand? The length, not the width, but

   1:21:22Let's see.

   Mariano

   1:21:23I'll give you a physical dependent on the right-of-way.

   1:21:29First picture under the letter P coming all the way down the second grouping where it says where it goes three D. From what I can see, you can have parking across the street In front of the on the left side of it. Or on the back side it's on the other side. So you you you got some substantial walking to do there.

   OakleyChair

   1:21:58Has the design been three three D. W What we've seen? We've seen some

   OakleyChair

   1:22:03that have three deep. Um we've seen a product that goes even more, four to five. But as m Mr. Major has pointed out, it gets very difficult in the engineering you need the space to accommodate that.

   Roy Major

   1:22:15Yeah, because when you when you factor in that all these units have water, voice water. Likely irrigation. Maybe cable conduit underground and a yard drain. Uh and a sidewalk. Uh and all of these have fenced in backyards typically. And so you factor all that to engineer those three and four units deep, gets it gets tricky. It it does.

   Starkey

   1:22:41Are you done I what was the issue that you bring up? 'Cause I wanna bring up two E when you're done.

   Mariano

   1:22:47The three deeps another issue. I mean frankly the way this map shows on the still well, if you look even in the top right whi where the pond is, someone's gotta walk. if they get the lucky parking spot at the very end, they gotta walk down two and over three to get to get to their house too.

   Starkey

   1:23:02No, there's a sidewalk. There's a sidewalk there, you just can't see it 'cause the tree cover. Oh

   Mariano

   1:23:06no no I'm s I'm say but I'm saying you gotta walk if you don't get that very end spot, you're walking down two and over three. If you're on the N N unit down there. And if you're back on those side and those four spots are cut, now you're even down another section.

   Starkey

   1:23:19You don't have any neighbors on two sides of you as a trade off.

   1:23:24Um Yeah that that doesn't bother me. But I do wanna talk about two E because in our design we did have some houses that had garages and I don't know. You know, in this design it looks very monotonous to me. Um and I don't know why you wanted to mix wouldn't want to mix that up. So um I would say garages are okay in a certain amount. Um why not?

   OakleyChair

   1:23:53So the the um Mr. Chairman

   Starkey

   1:23:55Marique in the multifamily and Starkey Ranch, there are s some of those product that have garages. Those I can pull 'em up, but you know where I'm talking about because you live near there.

   OakleyChair

   1:24:08Um

   Starkey

   1:24:08there are some garages and some of that multifamily product.

   OakleyChair

   1:24:11Those talking homes on fence posts you're referring to?

   Starkey

   1:24:13Yeah.

   OakleyChair

   1:24:14Yeah.

   Starkey

   1:24:16We should allow s some. There may be some great spots even in this one that where they would May wanna have it, so I I mean I see them detached here, but I don't have any problem with allowing some to have a attached garage. Yeah, the right.

   OakleyChair

   1:24:33Yes. Um Mr. Chairman Mariano 16, which defined the platted built-to-rent developments for single family detached product, one of the defining characteristics was an individualized driveway and garage. If you had these We basically said, Thou shalt plat. In other words, we're going to treat A single family subdivision to that that is for rent. as any other single family subdivision. You're going to plat them. Um and so but that

   1:25:03was a that was a key definition point in that uh policy discussion with the industry and the board at that time. Um it

   Mike Carballa

   1:25:13No, I was gonna stick with that. you know, including here, does that un undo that a little bit?

   OakleyChair

   1:25:18Well what can potentially happen is to increase a mix potentially you The board could, because these are negotiated projects anyway, um so we're talking about conditions of approval for MPUDs. You could establish a certain threshold that you could have maybe twenty percent of your products can be drive weighed with garage with attached or detached.

   1:25:42That was for rent. So and still maintain that single parcel under common ownership concept. without requiring individualized plating.

   Starkey

   1:25:52I think that's a good idea. Would be fine.

   OakleyChair

   1:25:54But the question would be what type of threshold are you looking at? I d I think fifty percent would probably be the max that you wouldn't want to exceed that because then you're making the situation really gray between a single family detached built-to-rent and this s sort of horizontal apartment multifamily built-to-rent. Um 20% might be a good starting point. And then if a developer could want needed more, let's say they could always make that argument in the

   1:26:24case that they would present to the board. During an M P U D debate. Mr.

   Mariano

   1:26:30Chairman

   OakleyChair

   1:26:30Mariano

   Mariano

   1:26:32I think the first one of these we have was over in Land O' Lakes. Off either Hill Road or Bell Lake Road. And when in that r when in that area part of the sell that they had was when you drive into this place, you're gonna think you're driving into a single family neighborhood. Barrowing the sign that said for lease out front, right?

   1:26:50Uh I'm not sure which one it is, I don't want to go by name, but I'm just saying so you drive into that one, you'd think you're in a single family subdivision. That is a lot more acceptable than this, because this here again, what's gonna happen down the road? Look at the Gulfview Mall. You know, competition happens around it, other things happen, and all of a sudden the guy who owned them all, and let's face it, apartments they flip them, whether they they say they're not going to or not, potential's there, and that's what the market tends to do. Five years they built it up, they rented out an occupancy, it goes in the open market,

   1:27:20people from Connecticut, California, they buy these things up, and now you just churn in money. The Gulfi Mall is an example of the same thing. It used to be a higher line mall and then now it's dropped down. And if you drop if you walk into it now it's actually kind of depressing. You go into to the uh Um Best Buy, you can't get into the mall from Best Buy. You go into the next store over, you can't get into the mall from that store. It's just like a storefront up front. So what's happened, the dynamics are gonna change. If this thing goes thirty years

   1:27:50down the road, the wrong person owns it and they're just gonna try to milk it, milk it. Um amenities go down, quality goes down. You you you've you've not created a quality place debate.

   Weightman

   1:28:03And this project specifically has competition because right across the street there's four hundred units that are actively being built. You know, four story. Twelve buildings. I mean to the whole You know, so you have this rental and directly across the street, you have your Brandon style apartments going on. So that's that scenario you described Only the future will tell.

   OakleyChair

   1:28:29Yeah but there's a there is a m market for this product though.

   Mariano

   1:28:32There there is a market in the markets right now. But is that the product you want to create? I mean I wouldn't you rather see even like smaller homes that people can either own or buy? And than just having straight rentals. I mean, we got so many rentals that are out there. Is that the market we want to get? Is that the Pasco County we want to grow? Yeah. I gotta think we want to see more ownership. I mean I got young families now, and it was said years ago, right? They they told us, oh yeah, people don't want to own the homes anymore. I will tell you right now, the market out there nowadays for the young kids, they want to own their own homes. Home. You know, my kids are growing up, their friends are having kids, etc. etc. They're

   1:29:03all looking for homes. The more property you tie up with these rental properties, the less opportunity you got for a rental home coming in to keep the very families we want to have grow up here and stay here and raise here. They're going to go somewhere else because you took all the land and put apartments up and these rental things up that nobody wants to live in for more than a year or two. I think we've got to think long term. M right in my neighborhood, where I first moved in, was Lakeside Woodlands, right by the hospital. You would have probably Twenty percent of the people from the hospital. Renting properties in

   1:29:33that area. High end, they wanted a home, they wanted to live, they wanted to live close to their work and they could have it. But the rental market's there and that's that's a good high end uh high end product right near Beacon Woods. So those rentals are okay in the right areas, but people can rent a single family home. And move out when they want to go. That's how people do it.

   OakleyChair

   1:29:54Mr. Chairman Mariano. Yes. If I may. So the the the policy memo that we're presenting here today uh establishes or will would establish if the board agrees to it, at least a baseline for the Planning and Economic Growth Department to engage applicants and tell them this is the very minimum that we would require of this type of project. This is what we want to see. There may be more that we can tack on on a case by case basis. Um but this is the very minimum. Uh but

   1:30:24it's still n nonetheless the decision for the Board of County Commissioners will still be there. As to whether or not they would accept that project in the future. Right. So w this memo essentially would at least pave the way for us as staff. to negotiate with the developer and then bring the question to the Board of County Commissioners and say, okay, we've negotiated this, this is what it looks like, yay or nay on the project. But that'll happen application to application, like as is all as always happens at the 130 meetings. But

   1:30:54this is just It means for us to advan be able to advance those those projects to you all.

   Weightman

   1:31:00Chairman And then me. Um Terry, the the project that Commissioner Starkey brings up that she was describing on Starkey Ranch. I'd like to have a better I don't know if that's shared or if it's public, but what she described sounds a lot more palatable than probably what will be coming before this board. I'm probably pretty confident that as this project goes and they come in and they seek to to build in Pasco, they'll probably be pretty uniform. But If we're going to have this type of product in Pasco, I'd be curious

   1:31:30to know. the combination of product and the styles that Commissioner Starkey brought about. within the project of Stocky Ranch. Because the only Examples, real life examples I've seen. uh and Pasco, you know, like I said, they're not overly exciting.

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:31:47No

   Weightman

   1:31:48um

   Starkey

   1:31:49monotony.

   Weightman

   1:31:50And I I I I just want a better understanding Uh What they could be. And what we could push 'em to be. So Um Commissioner Oakley willing to share kind of what you had, I I'd

   Starkey

   1:32:06Yeah, um look at it. Again, I don't think that project's gonna happen. I um But I thought it was a very good example of of what it could be. Right now there's no financing for these kind of products. Um but I think we should do something to stop monotony. Um and I think there's I w Sonia, did you get my latest picture that I emailed? Um I'm just showing you in Starkey Ranch where they have multifamily

   1:32:37with c with built-in garages. Now th this is a this is a quadruplex. Um I g I think. I I'm I'm I'm not even sure what it is, but um

   1:32:48There's there's not many that have uh garages but but there are opportunities. And and I'm gonna go back to something that Jack was saying. Yeah, I d I do wanna see home ownership but I can tell you I have family members who can't afford a house. and um I just would love for them to be able to get into something safe that they would like um with their dogs and And be able to live there until they Trying to keep him from living with me. We've done that already, so

   OakleyChair

   1:33:19Well

   Starkey

   1:33:19that's part of part of

   OakleyChair

   1:33:20our problem with the marketplace is

   Starkey

   1:33:22the

   OakleyChair

   1:33:22fact that

   Starkey

   1:33:23a lot

   OakleyChair

   1:33:23of young people need something affordable and they can't get into some of these homes.

   Starkey

   1:33:27Yeah.

   OakleyChair

   1:33:28I mean there's product out there I know out in the West Chapel area, I've seen some that Forty foot lots with houses on it. upper range of five hundred thousand dollars apiece and Of course they've all sold, but A lot of people can't afford that kind of home. So

   Starkey

   1:33:44now we are gonna have to know how

   OakleyChair

   1:33:46you get it affordable too.

   Starkey

   1:33:51low income housing either. Some I mean there the ones we were gonna do, they weren't gonna be cheap. I'm just gonna say there but there but there is a there's a there is a market for that. There really is. There's people who wanna live like that. So um Uh I just think we should tighten up what we have. and kinda see what shak shakes out. But I d I do think we have to have a discussion on Making sure our At some point our rental You know, apartment

   1:34:22complexes mo m more the vertical ones? You know, where are we and And what kind

   OakleyChair

   1:34:28of direction the board wanna give Terry on this?

   Starkey

   1:34:30Well we had a few more that we had to go over. So I think you need to pick a number for the the garages and if there's support, you know, I would say thirty percent maybe. Because I don't think it should be a lot, but I think there should be some. Up

   OakleyChair

   1:34:44to 30%.

   Starkey

   1:34:45Yeah. And then um we did the width.

   OakleyChair

   1:34:48Amenities

   Starkey

   1:34:49and uh and you had a question on amenities. What w what was yours?

   Weightman

   1:34:52We've got to decide on amenities. architectural design standards for two story and then the conversation around So we got the walkway and corridors. We'd say fifteen fifteen feet. Fifteen feet, yeah. Wanna start with fifteen? So with amenities, I assume we'll advocate for Within there?

   Starkey

   1:35:16Yeah, in a in a pool community pool.

   OakleyChair

   1:35:19Um I don't know what kind of trail you're gonna get, but

   Starkey

   1:35:22They they they ring the property acre property.

   1:35:27This one's a big one.

   OakleyChair

   1:35:28But they have a the one I saw had a pool and it had a uh workout room.

   Starkey

   1:35:32Yeah.

   OakleyChair

   1:35:32As part of it. So

   Starkey

   1:35:35So ha so how are we dealing With the hundred for every hundred units you need a acre park in a ho for a house. We typically wave that in an apartment complex. Frankly, it's one of our live local tools. Um, so I'm not sure I wanna give that up right now to to go ahead and right in here that they don't have to ask for a waiver of The hundred acre park per one hundred. Because I don't I will get

   1:36:06ourselves in trouble?

   OakleyChair

   1:36:07They don't have to ask that that's a requested variance from the Land Development Code requirement. Uh because our land development code is generally been designed for single family residential development.

   Trevor Mackey

   1:36:18Yeah.

   OakleyChair

   1:36:18And so that provision is typically applied to all residential type, although it's You can say that it contemplates single family. You can as you read the code, it doesn't specifically call out single family, but it reads as if it's trying to address the single family style of development. Nevertheless, that code provision is applicable to multifamily and so when when multifamily developers come in And they present MPUDs to the board, they're often asking for a variance from that code provision. Yeah, every time. So they don't have to, but

   1:36:48they do.

   Starkey

   1:36:49I know, and and if we have some live locals that we can't that come in on C two and or industrial that we can't stop, that's a tool we have in our toolkit. To require That and I think we need to keep that in the toolbox right now.

   OakleyChair

   1:37:03Correct.

   Starkey

   1:37:05That's what I'm saying. So

   1:37:09Not saying we won't give these folks the variance if we want to. Um but we need to keep that tool in our toolbox for Live Local.

   1:37:20Oh, any other amenities?

   1:37:27These I mean you gotta think of these as deconstructed apartments.

   Weightman

   1:37:32They have the the little the gym, the pool, a little walking air I mean it's the same amenity as as if what you get in a vertical apartment.

   Starkey

   1:37:38Yeah.

   OakleyChair

   1:37:42It looks like they have a path. And this particular one we're looking at, they have a path around that pond in the back. So I don't know where it a little backyard. This or where that walkway goes around round the pond.

   OakleyChair

   1:37:57Right.

   1:37:59So we'll we'll add those requirements for these development type or these product types.

   Weightman

   1:38:04So Terry, when we go to the two story What are you saying? Like screen porch?

   OakleyChair

   1:38:10With the architectural design standards. Sometimes these units are two story, up to thirty-five feet. Uh and some of the commentary that was received was that There should be a a difference of material type between the first story and the second story so that the whole thing is not just stucco. Let's say you put like a brick of an ear on the Prophet Sad or whatever on the first story. Hardy board or something of that nature and above so And the way we um

   Starkey

   1:38:37where the trails could

   OakleyChair

   1:38:37it was noted right

   1:38:42simply saying that two story units should not be a hundred percent stucco. The first story of a two story structure should be something different. Yeah. And it can be

   OakleyChair

   1:38:52Selecting the right-of-way.

   OakleyChair

   1:38:53That

   OakleyChair

   1:38:54that breaks up the monotony of something being the same all the way. Right.

   Mariano

   1:39:00Who's that picture we're looking at? on the right side.

   1:39:08Yeah.

   OakleyChair

   1:39:09These are the apartment units that um we're f f we're looking at them from the parking lot side of the development, but these units line up against Fence Post Drive, which is a north south north south road that connects fifty four to Rangeland. Th these

   Weightman

   1:39:24look nice. comparatively to what we have around the the county. You definitely When you drive Starkey and you see 'em. Subconsciously I think oh we If we're gonna have this, I'd like to see more. Like it.

   Starkey

   1:39:39You see the hardy plank, you see the brick, there's

   1:39:45there's just trim work everywhere.

   Weightman

   1:39:47It's not necessarily a sliding door, it's a hinge door.

   Starkey

   1:39:56And you can see how far apart they are from each other on the upper right.

   OakleyChair

   1:40:01Are we giving you information that's

   OakleyChair

   1:40:02helping

   OakleyChair

   1:40:03you?

   OakleyChair

   1:40:03Yes, it is very helpful. Uh to be sure though, this this would be classified as vertical apartment. Yeah, yeah. Which is the next thing on the list to do once we've settled this question on the horizontal

   Starkey

   1:40:14apartment. What else did we have to um give you direction on?

   Weightman

   1:40:19So Terry, w the explain the difference between what'd you say, condo style plating, and we know what our traditional plating is. But explain please explain to me the difference You mentioned that there's a possibility we could do condo style plaiding with these. What does that entail? Uh uh

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:40:34that that goes through the state process of condominium through the

   1:40:42It's uh it used to be the Bureau of Land Sales. I don't know what it is these days, but there the state has a process. where you can divide up land. in a condominium and you have to f follow chapter Seven uh

   1:41:01Ten,

   Weightman

   1:41:02seven So then the follow-up would be is that exempt this if we if that's done, is that Is this particular way condo planning exempt from live local? So

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:41:14Con uh Condo plating and subdivision platting is a is a method of dividing property. Um

   1:41:27For sale. So Under the subdivision regulations, if you divide a piece of land into three or m three or more lots, you have to go through 177. Planning. Or you can go through this other process. Doc. Condominium Platting Statute was really designed. for Vertical Apartment buildings, what You'd think of it as an apartment building, that each unit is being sold.

   1:41:58As a piece of property.

   OakleyChair

   1:41:59They actually have firewalls between them. Right. Right. Well,

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:42:02I'm

   OakleyChair

   1:42:02not opposed

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:42:03to that. Um the

   1:42:07So there is a what they call land condo that can be done under that same statute That looks For all intents and purposes, like a regular subdivision. except for the fact that because they don't go through the subdivision process they're exempt from the subdivision process in your code, in all local government's codes, And so they don't have to follow any of those requirements. So what

   1:42:37you tend to see is the setbacks are smaller. Um if they if they do it that way. It it's very infrequent that you see a land condo

   1:42:53um except in the commercial setting. There are some people who go through the who go through condominimize their commercial project through the state process, um especially south of here. Um but it's m Yeah. Well it wouldn't come through us for for review, but it's i the the uh the land condo is

   1:43:23something that is not very frequently used. used. My my experience.

   Weightman

   1:43:28Is it because it's too the process is too bureaucratic? Do we get a better product? Is Is it it's a level of ownership? Like do we know that the easement is the right-of-way. Well they

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:43:36have to they have to follow the whole state process on forming a condominium association and going through all of those regulations that are very different than the homeowners association regulations.

   Weightman

   1:43:50But this product doesn't have a association. This is just your standard property management firm. There's no associational part of that. Right. I think that's been a concern of this board is having some level of association to keep up with upkeep. Wait.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:44:07The question becomes can a private corporation run maintenance of a piece of property better than a homeowners association or or a lay board. I mean at some point um Yeah, Platting it is not going to help you in terms of long term upkeep if it's if it's being Um Rent it out. and

   1:44:38you may actually be digging a bigger hole because Now you've got A lay board that's in control of it.

   1:44:50Um if that's the way it's it's orchestrated. But the but you know If you go back to the The eighties. Let's say and I can't. Sorry. I can't. We we if we don't remember history, we're doomed to repeat it. Yeah. Um duplexes were popular in the in the seventies and eighties and they

   1:45:21were a single unit that had two two dwellings in it, on a lot.

   1:45:30If they were if they were built Poorly. And they were and and they were in certain areas of of a county. They became slums. You know, it it that's just

   1:45:46what happened what happened in a lot of those situations is Single owners bought up a lot of the lots. and put them out as rental property and it became the only affordable housing that was available in certain counties and it was a minimum housing problem forever. Um and some counties are still dealing with that. it's not as big a problem here in Pasco, but there are some some counties

   1:46:17that it's it's a big deal. Mm-hmm.

   1:46:22Frankly, I think that the focus should be more on Design of the project and construction and amenities than whether or not it's platted. I agree with you on the single family stuff. that looks like a single family development. and y you know because ultimately that could convert very easily to to a home ownership

   1:46:52situation. if this phase runs in a different direction and then you're stuck in it doesn't meet any of the requirements and it would be hard to hard to divide up. um on this sort of multifamily Product Yeah, I I d I don't know that platinum's gonna help you. Help you much in the long run.

   Mariano

   1:47:14I don't know Mr. Chairman Mariano. I'd give it for instance, I'm not gonna say where it was, but looked at a place where there's Is this a home on this main street coming in a little coup little couple of sec, not a busy road. Kinda like a kinda like this, but Not near to the depth. Um drove in and there was a home on one side and then one row back was a little bit of a garage that you couldn't drive a car into, but you could Put stuff in. And then the home was in the back of it. Um, somewhat to

   1:47:44that effect. And and frankly, looking at the value to that house That was Disconnected from the street. From the garage, whenever. Just devalued the property. Even though location was great, the home was great. I mean But didn't want to go through that. Yeah. So we're if we're gonna devise these things at a three D, no no access to a garage, and and to me, you know, if you if you're gonna drive into a place, let's say it's down the road, right? And now it's gets sketchy. If you gotta

   1:48:14walk three blocks in or even two blocks in, it's a dangerous much more dangerous situation of what can happen. A young person or a young young lady walking in with the family, with the kids, when you got a rent today, you don't know who that is. Could have changed.

   1:48:33And all of a sudden you've got to deal with that situation and now that just degrades the property. You get one accident that happens there, something bad happens in the neighborhood, it goes down, down, down, and all of a sudden it spirals out and like Jeff says it goes, you know, into into a very bad situation. And now the properties get devalued. I think we need to really focus. We wanna really focus, let's go focus. that people can afford or town homes that people can afford to help them get a start. But to go take up our property that's out there, and I say our land, uh they're privately held converting

   1:49:04all these things over, you're not you're not getting the base that you want for the long term future. I mean, do we want quality? Do we want to be premier? Or

   OakleyChair

   1:49:11do you want that? Okay. We've gone quite a while on this, but I got a time certain here at eleven forty-five. So what's the pleasure of the board for the easy thing?

   Starkey

   1:49:20Well I I wanna know, uh Terry, I keep asking this, have can if you could do it a little faster, have we hit everything you asked us to make a decision on?

   OakleyChair

   1:49:28Yes.

   Starkey

   1:49:29So we did the monotony.

   OakleyChair

   1:49:33We did a fifteen feet walkway. Um there's the we did the the two story um differentiation of the facade in terms of not having it all stucco. Um we said up to thirty percent of the units may have individual garages or driveways. And we talked about the the mandate for amenities. Uh and I think the Plating question um is is yeah for the county attorney's uh explanation

   Starkey

   1:49:59uh we we want we want more we want to make sure there's architectural variation to avoid monotony

   Weightman

   1:50:08And Chairman M and Terry the to the The point of With garages. Let's really study that. Because if we don't have that. The likelihood Of a storage facility coming

   Mariano

   1:50:22Okay.

   Weightman

   1:50:23Right nearby, real quick, on a prime time job creating site is highly likely going to happen. So

   OakleyChair

   1:50:30you know let's raise a quick question. The previously we said up to thirty percent of the units may have individual garages and driveways. Does that instead of being an option, does that become a requirement?

   Starkey

   1:50:44Mm. No, I d I don't want to make it a record. have these uh uh unattached um storage garages and storage. I don't my son wrote and he rented one.

   Mike Carballa

   1:50:58Sorry members, we're ca I apologize. We're having some issues with the clerk being able to hear are we

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:51:04We're not

   Mike Carballa

   1:51:04recording.

   Weightman

   1:51:32Mine? No.

   Mariano

   1:51:52It's not

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:51:56Check one two. What's the

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:52:00problem?

   1:52:02investment portfolio presentation. We have some in trouble to get here.

   OakleyChair

   1:52:10I thought it was Jack for a minute.

   Starkey

   1:52:12Mr Chairman Mariano Are we done with that? Well we took a long time.

   1:52:21We didn't take are we taking comment from the public on this?

   OakleyChair

   1:52:24No. No, I know that. Okay. I'd listen this uh time certain for Number forty five. the person came from quite a ways off to be able to do this. Oh here it is. So we need to need to take care of it. But have you got the direction or are you asking for some kind of a motion from us? On this item?

   OakleyChair

   1:52:43Uh the motion would be to

   OakleyChair

   1:52:45uh

   OakleyChair

   1:52:45direct the Planning and Economic Growth Department to a course of action, which if the board is okay with the provisions that we've talked about today. That would be the course of action that we would then implement in the policy.

   1:52:58Mr. Chairman Mariano.

   Mike Carballa

   1:52:59Well we would go ahead I'm sorry, Terry. We would go ahead and implement it. Of course, the Board would see the revised policy, but I think we've gotten the information from the Board that we need in order to to finalize the policy. And then of course as projects come in, that's that's a different matter.

   Mariano

   1:53:14Mr. Chairman Mariano. I I I hear one voice coming out and it's like we're gonna take that as the the answer. You know, fifteen feet. We're gonna say thirty percent is acceptable or not to get one answer. I mean, I don't think we're anywhere near done with this thing. I'd like to see you come back in the next meeting.

   OakleyChair

   1:53:28Well

   Mariano

   1:53:28I think we've had a full discussion here and

   OakleyChair

   1:53:31I haven't even heard from Commissioner Bradford. And we can't continue it now.

   Mike Carballa

   1:53:35We can continue it this afternoon if the Board would like. That's fine, but I'm not

   OakleyChair

   1:53:39yeah, I'm not through

   Mike Carballa

   1:53:40discussing this. Okay.

   Starkey

   1:53:43Um but I think uh Commissioner Mariano brings up some things that need to be discussed in a workshop setting with a lot more information when we're gonna when we're gonna start discussing rental versus purchase and what are the right proportions. Okay. We don't have nearly enough of that information.

   OakleyChair

   1:54:02So I guess the consent is to bring it back to us.

   Mike Carballa

   1:54:07So let's see, let's get through our time certain and then we can bring back uh any final discussion if staff's had an opportunity to maybe address some of the board's issues and if we are still at that point this afternoon then we'll certainly we'll bring it back and or workshop it, whatever the board would like to see.

   ▶ 1:23:5720m2/2

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:23:57that's my back R thirty eight.

   OakleyChair

   1:24:00Uh

   1:24:03I have to figure out where we were at, huh?

   Mike Carballa

   1:24:06So I think we finished off on R thirty eight, which was the planning item. I wouldn't mind having Terry Recap that conversation and just make sure that we're clear

   OakleyChair

   1:24:15for the board.

   Mike Carballa

   1:24:18Yes, sir.

   OakleyChair

   1:24:24Recap. Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman. Let's start from the top. Just kidding. Um So there were four items that needed clarification from this morning's uh discussion. We clarified the mandate for amenities. We clarified the distance between facade to facade to be fifteen feet. Um we clarified that we need to add architectural standards for two-story structures so that they're not all stucco. Uh

   1:24:55and to avoid uh architectural monotony. And we clarified that up to thirty percent of the uh units within such a development may have individual garages or driveways. Um

   1:25:12The plating question was also clarified in the sense that platter isn't a a maintenance tool. Uh but that uh if a development in the future wanted to uh plat itself, they could go through the condo platting process, which would be through the state. Um So the intent of policy members like these is to collaborate with the Board of County Commissioners in the establishment of a planning direction. And this policy memo uh or these types of policy memos uh bring the concerns and comments that the

   1:25:42Board of County Commissioners makes to the front of the MPUD planning and negotiation process instead of having them appear at the approval hearings. We're gonna take these types of concerns and bring them forward. And that's a you very useful tool for the staff because we can use these memos as a starting line that'll help direct the planning activity. And it helps applicants to know what to expect in the planning process itself. And finally the policy memo is not approving any particular project. Today's policy memo. Uh The BCC

   1:26:12will always have the ability to review and approve future horizontal apartments should they come forward. Now um I'm not gonna go through all of this again, but it we only saw this example this morning. We've added a few more contextual examples so you that you can see the flavor of these types of multifamily products. As horizontal apartments do fill a particular market need for various demographics, particularly for millennials who comprise a greater portion of the workforce. Where the general preference among

   1:26:42that demographic is uh to own less. Let me stop you there, because I think that statement's

   Mariano

   1:26:49absolutely false.

   OakleyChair

   1:26:51Well there there's a number of studies that point to that uh idea. But n nonetheless, it's a it's a type of housing product that's uh uh desired, there's a marketplace for it. Where are

   Starkey

   1:27:04these from?

   OakleyChair

   1:27:05So this is a Florida example.

   Starkey

   1:27:07They have gutters, by the way, folks.

   OakleyChair

   1:27:09In this picture here, yes. It also this also illustrates the distance, uh, the corridor distance from facade to facade. This looks to be wider fifteen to twenty feet or so. Uh this is an example from Texas. One sort of illustrating the variety of architecture that can be added to these types of uh developments.

   Starkey

   1:27:28Brick and Hardy Plank and Stone Knot.

   OakleyChair

   1:27:31Here's another example. Uh I believe this is also Texas.

   Starkey

   1:27:34See, I like that the buildings don't look exactly alike. I didn't like that in the first one. I didn't like that the beer you couldn't tell one, you know, every building was this I like better. I think we need some variety.

   OakleyChair

   1:27:48The architectural standards that are outlined in here does require at least um three different architectural elevations. With a minimum of three architectural features differing between them.

   Starkey

   1:27:59Is that uh uh that could be

   OakleyChair

   1:28:02We have that in

   Starkey

   1:28:03that enough? Is that enough? I mean does that include Um Uh uh hardy plank, stone or b and brick?

   OakleyChair

   1:28:12Yes.

   Weightman

   1:28:12In porches, if they're two story?

   OakleyChair

   1:28:15Yeah. S stucco siding, which would be the hardy plank, uh brick, stone. No

   Starkey

   1:28:21no, stucco siding is not hardy plank.

   OakleyChair

   1:28:23No, stucco comma siding. Siding can be the hardy plank. Okay. Yeah. Uh Hardy Plank is a brand.

   Starkey

   1:28:31Right.

   OakleyChair

   1:28:31Um brick, stone, et cetera. Those types of veneers would be what we're looking for in terms of these uh product uh these um developments. Uh as I said, Is that

   Starkey

   1:28:42on only on the front or on all the sides? Because I'm looking here. Uh Seems like it should be On everything but the back. Not just the front. Sometimes people just put it see at least this one wrapped it around the corner. Do you see that? But then it's got hardy hardy or board and batten all the way down the other side. So let's make sure that it's not just the front.

   OakleyChair

   1:29:09We can we can make that more explicit in the menual.

   1:29:20So this example is from Texas. I believe this example is from Arizona. You can kind of see this. Um this would be your ten foot walkway, right? So facade here to facade here. Uh-huh. And these are sort of showing the recessed entryways that we discussed this morning. Um Here's an example of a site plan from Lakewood Ranch. We talked about this here in Florida. And I believe this one's in in Sarasota. Uh you can see how the depth of

   1:29:51these units doesn't really exceed three. Okay. Um much of it is two. At some points like right here, you see a a s a stack of three. Um And that's pretty much it. It doesn't get much more than the right-of-way.

   Starkey

   1:30:03Terry, what um on the can you go back to the ones on the top right? What's going on there? What are those in the back? What's that in the back?

   OakleyChair

   1:30:11Top right.

   Starkey

   1:30:14Uh other side. Nope nope nope come back. Up. What are those like along the lake? What are those little buildings? What are those?

   OakleyChair

   1:30:22These are units.

   Starkey

   1:30:24They're just little teeny ones?

   OakleyChair

   1:30:27Presumably probably the one bedroom versions.

   1:30:33Changed it up a little bit.

   1:30:36Um here's an example from Texas. I couldn't get an image. This was off of their website, but Uh I couldn't get an image that was a little bit clearer, but again, you can kinda understand the the stacking that they that they do. They don't go more than two or three deep. Um in terms of the development here. In this case you have uh major thoroughfare commercial development that's being developed and then The density that then ble blends out to single family detached further to the

   Starkey

   1:31:05I think those are apart apartments there to the very Apartments coming up.

   OakleyChair

   1:31:10Yeah, probably right here. Ver vertical apartments right there. And uh commercial outlets out front. You kinda see the building right there getting developed.

   1:31:20Um and that those are the images just to provide a little bit more context for what we're talking about uh today.

   1:31:29So that that's the r that was the recap and a little bit more if the board had any additional things to note.

   Weightman

   1:31:35Chairman Mariano.

   OakleyChair

   1:31:36Uh yes.

   Weightman

   1:31:39Back to what we're talking about. This is the right-of-way. This product It it's highly likely it's going to trigger Some level of storage to come in behind it. Can we Do some due diligence, your team do some due diligence on especially if we have the deconstructed department and then we have say our standard four story or whatever apartments coming in nearby. Can we find out what triggers? Storage 'cause it's

   1:32:09they they seem there seems to be a consistent pattern that we see. These go in, storage, car wash. What have you, but those two pop up pretty quick and since we're looking at that anyway. Especially if we don't have garages on these if it's only thirty percent. We could probably predict what's gonna be coming around the camera here on commercial zone sites.

   Mariano

   1:32:32Mr. Chairman Mariano. Is Commissioner Weightman considered a millennial?

   Weightman

   1:32:37I

   Andrew Baxter

   1:32:37don't know what I

   Mariano

   1:32:39I wanna I wanna tell you, I I've got the same things written down right here. Garages come in, no you know, no garages, you're gonna get more car washes, more storage, and I added d dollar generals too.

   OakleyChair

   1:32:53Well Mr. Chairman M one idea maybe and this this may be a uh A n a question or an idea for in a broader sense for all multifamily, not just for horizontal but also for vertical. But uh actually have a requirement for multifamily projects to provide on-site storage. So you don't have to wait for a market trigger, you can actually condition it Condition those projects to say thou shalt provide on site storage to help, you know, combat the proliferation of self storage

   1:33:23facilities.

   Weightman

   1:33:24Well there's a example Commissioner Starkey talked about down there in the middle of the state. Yeah, liquid rain.

   1:33:30We could there there's a pretty consistent pattern that we see throughout the county now. And I just We know it's coming in and we think bigger picture long term. But we just need to educate ourselves and and and Be prepared for what's coming in and manage it the right way.

   OakleyChair

   1:33:46Would you like for us to develop this idea to re to require on-site storage for multifamily? I'm not opposed.

   Starkey

   1:33:54Well what does that mean? Um You could have I know that like when where my son lived in an apartment complex in Saint Pete, you had the ability to rent uh you know, five by ten, you can put your bike Yeah. you know Christmas stuff. Yeah, or your golf clubs and stuff in. Um or you could rent a garage, so maybe it's providing an option. Um

   Roy Major

   1:34:24Mr Mr. Chairman Mr. Chairman M let me point out a couple things like on this site plan and along the discussion of garages. So this site plan and and most built rent that comes in there are There are units here that are standalone garages that someone can lease uh in addition to their to their monthly rent. You can see these here, the buildings that are in the parking area. Those are four space undercover units.

   Starkey

   1:34:49And they rent the you choose to rent an an additional space if you want to.

   OakleyChair

   1:34:54Yeah. If I'm not mistaken I've seen this before but it's not there's not a Storage unit. or a garage for each apartment in the whole place. There's a certain percentage of those that people can lease if I'm not mistaken.

   Roy Major

   1:35:08That is correct. That is correct. And so the idea that that's exactly right, Mr. Chair. So in addition to these standalone units, with the percentage of units that was discussed to have a garage. You know, now you've accomplished some of that some of that question. Um was there any stories?

   Starkey

   1:35:27We didn't require them.

   Roy Major

   1:35:28Uh up to was there any storage with this the project we that was approved on Island Boulevard. Was there any storage with those apartments?

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:35:36Yes. There was there were garages that were shown on their site plan. So there's there's the

   Roy Major

   1:35:41opportunity to establish that percentage. To but I've seen that before. To allow to allow that garages along with these standalone.

   Starkey

   1:35:49It's not a bad idea that we require up to X amount of storage.

   OakleyChair

   1:35:55We c we could make it um I

   OakleyChair

   1:35:57would think to look and see what percentage is a normal thing to talk to the industry. Number of apartments or whatever. So 'Cause you're not gonna do that to the entire thing 'cause you can have there that nobody's ran at all. So I agree.

   Roy Major

   1:36:10I I can tell you my in my past life we were we were going for about Thirty five percent, about a point three five of the parking was to be in these standalone garage units. Right. Okay.

   OakleyChair

   1:36:25including some of these 'cause it it makes it a lot nicer.

   Mariano

   1:36:29Mr. Chairman

   1:36:30Mariano. Let

   1:36:30me float a suggestion. So instead of going three deep or four deep Let's go too deep. And let's allow fifty percent of them to have garages. Or make 'em have fifty percent of garages. Which you'll end up with having A row with people with garages out front? They can drive right into it, whatever. Barking out front. And then for the people that don't have the money, want to save a little bit of money, they can go walk in the back. Turn out the ear in the back. Almost like a an ADMU.

   Starkey

   1:36:58I I I'm gonna disagree because then it you start getting very expensive and having a lot more a lot more pavement.

   1:37:09I have no idea. I just don't want to limit them to I think three deep is Mr. Mr. Chairman Mariano.

   OakleyChair

   1:37:15Yes, sir. Ms. Daznar?

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:37:17I need to point out the language that you've told Terry to use, which is up to 30%. doesn't require them to do it. But it doesn't change that they could do it. If they wish to do it if with if you don't put that in the in the memo. They can s they can build garage there's nothing that prohibits the garages. So I'm not sure that you've added anything by saying up to thirty percent. If you

   1:37:47want to make it a requirement That'd be one thing. But the but I don't You you haven't gained anything that they couldn't that the developer couldn't already do.

   Starkey

   1:37:56So so what we were talking about before was attached garages, not detached. So we said up to thirty percent attached garages. Okay. But maybe we need to um also now add and

   1:38:10a certain amount of detached Garages or storage They're not all garages. Some of them are storage closets.

   OakleyChair

   1:38:28As a multifamily, that is to say, not single family detached units. Because remember the the distinction was that a single family detached built-to-rent product had a individual driveway and an individual garage And so the discussion from this morning was well we should have Some units that have a garage and a driveway onto themselves. And What would be the point where we would say, okay, you could do as many as you would like, we said thirty up to

   1:38:58thirty percent, uh, and still be classified as multifamily, that is to say, a single parcel under common ownership.

   OakleyChair

   1:39:07And the other side of that is you once you bring this forward and a project comes forward. You have reason to make a better choice or them to make a better choice and We actually put that stipulation on certain projects. Yeah.

   1:39:26Whether they have it or not have it or

   OakleyChair

   1:39:29Yes.

   OakleyChair

   1:39:29Yeah. What storage is that?

   Weightman

   1:39:35Chairman M would would storage be considered because of the nature of this, would storage be considered an amenity? I mean i if if they're gonna have to leave off site. They're going to have to have storage, so they're going to leave where they're living. Drive to wherever. Go to their storage place, climb stairs or take an elevator.

   OakleyChair

   1:39:54Sure.

   Weightman

   1:39:55If we had a more formal st storage plan Would Would s would storage potentially be defined or what these folks would consider an amenity? Within the community. And just have it, you know, like this picture and the go down to the end where it tease and it's back there in a corner and it's, you know, three or four high and I don't know, just thinking out loud.

   OakleyChair

   1:40:19Yeah, I I think so because amenities don't necessarily have to be recreational in scope. They It's still An amenity can be functional. Right. And it's an added asset to the community, things that are available on site. Hmm.

   Weightman

   1:40:35Right. Because it'd still be and then it p it'd still be revenue generating. Four. the the business that owns these things.

   1:40:46Right.

   Starkey

   1:40:46Some way, some form. Huh.

   OakleyChair

   1:40:48They're gonna pay for it. Yeah.

   Starkey

   1:40:49That's another revenue generator.

   OakleyChair

   1:40:54Okay.

   1:40:57A requirement for on site storage.

   Weightman

   1:40:59I'm I'm I guess what I'm saying is is Maybe explore it and see since we don't really understand it. It was stakeholders and No see what we're doing. Get I recommend get their expert opinion and maybe if there's a Other places that have that or work or explore what Commissioner Starkey was uh sharing with us down at Lakewood Ranch. Um Oh kind of

   1:41:28Save very you know, save our commercial spaces for Something a little bit more exciting.

   Dade City

   1:41:37Okay.

   Mike Carballa

   1:41:40That's fine, we can bring that back. I mean if not not the same in the rest of the policy. I I have heard discuss with industry on that, so

   OakleyChair

   1:41:48Okay. That's it for me. Any other questions? Yeah.

   OakleyChair

   1:41:55We're gonna get we're gonna have a motion to make it a little bit more.

   Mike Carballa

   1:41:57So I think we'd yeah, I think uh we we would appreciate if the board would, you know, uh approve us moving forward with this policy memo at this time, recognizing that. There's other bites at the apple as projects come forward and that policy and these things can evolve as we as we learn more, right? So we'll we'll discuss self-storage. But right now we have really nothing, staff really has nothing to go on. And at least if the board is comfortable with the things that we've outlined here today, we can begin doing that in accordance with what Terry has said as of today if they haven't had first-round

   1:42:27comments. months we can we can begin that we can begin that process and it doesn't mean that we can't add to it or you know take a look at it in six months and see if we're happy with it or not happy with it. Uh certainly we will bring back the on-site storage. I think there's there's some merit that needs to be explored there and I think staff is ready to do that. So

   Weightman

   1:42:45All right, please. I would I'll make the motion Under the pretense that this is a evolving and living memo here. And uh You know, Commissioner Starkey mentioned workshopping and bringing up in kind of a a different forum. Uh with all those points in mind and that we We get to have a conversation in a different way about it. So I'll I'll move approval with those recommendations.

   Starkey

   1:43:14Second.

   OakleyChair

   1:43:15I got a motion and a second by roll call vote.

   Starkey

   1:43:18District two, Commissioner Weightman. District three, Commissioner Starkey. Aye. District four, Commissioner Bradford.

   1:43:26District five, Commissioner Mariano.

   Mariano

   1:43:28Nay.

   Starkey

   1:43:29District One Chairman Oakley.

   OakleyChair

   1:43:31I think that's a good thing. Motion passed four one.

   1:43:35Move on to