PW-21-0075

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1. 1Apr 7, 2021
   Board of County CommissionersR45Regular businessNo disposition in the minutes

   Open this item →▶ Play from 1:18:00
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   Ron OakleyChair

   1:18:00Okay, now we move on to R that ends the public hearing and we move on to R forty five, is that right? Okay.

   County Administrator

   1:18:13Yes sir, Mr Chair, before Ainsley um so Ainsley Bransford get started. I knew it was you. And we've already gone. You've seen most of this information before in some briefings that we gave to the board. So it really isn't necessarily a lot of new information, but we wanted to kind of walk through the different options for the the way to do local well, local road paving program based on the last meeting since we kind of already had this teed up. It just made sense to bring it back since it looked like we were gonna have some time today. What

   1:18:44we're really looking for when when Brantford is done. That um Direction of which option you would like us to pursue further and do more research on and bring you you know a little more detail on them. Because right now we don't necessarily have all the answers. for you to make one final decision. But what we're looking for really is a Go go look at this one, this option, and this option, and maybe another option to go do more research on and then bring it back to us. That's really what we're looking for today.

   1:19:15So with that I will turn it over to Brantford and let him go through it.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:19:19Good afternoon, Commissioner.

   County Administrator

   1:19:26Yes, Jordan.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:19:30Okay, as the county administrator mentioned, this is about the paving of local roads, the program that we have, which we all call PVAS. So the issue here is we are offering options for discussions in terms of the pavement assessment program, PVAS. uh which uh is currently administratively burdensome and also very costly on a life cycle cost basis. That's not right.

   1:20:01The goal here is to come up with an option that is going to provide us, is going to help reduce the administrative cost. Um as well as um provide um a sound road for the citizens of Pasco.

   1:20:14Next.

   1:20:18So before we get into the presentation and I know I have fifteen minutes so I'm gonna go So I would like to talk about a strategy called Road Preservation Strategy, which we don't currently do under the present program. What that means is uh preserv preservation is a program, maintenance program you apply to a road after you've paved the road over several years. It extends the life of the road. So a road that would normally last under the current program, say eighteen years, can last forty

   1:20:49years. Their preservation strategies are very cost effective. And um currently when the road is paved, if you take a look at the chart to the left. uh the condition comes close to the 100, never 100, uh sometime 94, 93. Uh the current program, then nothing is done. To the road. and then the road keeps deteriorating and then 18 years we are back to the same place. Similarly, you can compare this to your car.

   1:21:19You buy your new car, you don't change the oil, you don't change the filter, you keep driving it. We all know what happens. Um if you look on the chart to the right. It shows what should be done. You know, where you have excellent, you have a new road, uh, you keep applying those strategies I talk about on the left um side of the um of the um of the slide. what is called rejuvenation within five years you apply it. It's very cost effective. Uh and then you come to microsurfacing and

   1:21:49then you do meal and pave and you can keep going for at least 30 to 40 years. Just not spending a whole lot of money. Reconstructing the road. Let's like this.

   Jack Mariano

   1:22:01Excuse me for a second?

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:22:02Yes. Come back to the slide.

   Jack Mariano

   1:22:07On the right screen it says eliminate or delay spending six to ten dollars on rehab. What does that mean exactly?

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:22:13Yes. What that means is if you apply the preservation uh strategies we mentioned, which we currently don't do, which on the other options we are going to present would allow us to do. is you are going to not spend six to ten times the amount that we are spending now. On roads. depending on the timing, depending on the condition of your roles now. If you apply it at the right strategy at the right point of the road. the savings can in terms of their expenditure can

   1:22:44be six to ten times less.

   1:22:47As of re of maintenance. Yes. Maintenance prolongs the quality of the road.

   1:22:51Exactly. The preservation is the maintenance. It prolongs, just like your car. Okay, I got you.

   Applicant Star

   1:22:59That's all these

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:23:06Next.

   1:23:09Okay, so this is this is and the previous slide, the six to ten, we were modest, very modest in that, in this. And what we found out from our data, the current process, if you look at the one in red, is called FDR, uh full debt reclamation or reconstruction. With the current program, PVAS program, that is mostly what we've been doing because keep keep in mind a road is built. You know, we can't fix it until there's a petition. Uh if the petition uh passes then we fix it. Uh

   1:23:40so we are spending close that amount. uh on the average uh in the current program. If you take a look at it. um the uh chart on the left, it shows if we apply these strategies that we are talking about, uh the cost savings could could be about 65% to the citizens and also to the county.

   1:24:03Next slide, please.

   1:24:06So we're offering um Five options. Actually, the first option is the existing system Pas. The second option is what we call PVAS Plus. It's a very fancy name we came up with. And then option three is the County Wide Don Ad Ballorum assessment, which is different from the Ad Ballorum taxes that we currently have. Option four is the County Wide Ad Balloran taxation.

   1:24:36taxing unit, but then we are able to exclude certain areas of the county and then and then tax them. And in this case we'll have control in terms of when the roads should be paved. Mr. Chairman Mariano. Yeah, sir.

   Jack Mariano

   1:24:48Another question. Bradford, sometimes we have neighborhoods privately held like Seven Oaks. They'll go in and they'll um Seal coating. They're all asphalt. What's the difference from that to the microservicing and have you built that into your plan?

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:25:01Yes. The SEO code that they do is what is called service rejuvenation. So what they are doing, what they call SEAL coat, is service rejuvenation. Okay. It's different from Slery SEAL, which is not good, but SEAL code is a service rejuvenation in the first five, seven years. If if you just pour that on the road, it just brings it back to life. It rejuvenates the content of the asphalt. It just extends it for another five years.

   Jack Mariano

   1:25:27I mean what about if you get a road like the road I'm on is probably Fifteen years old. There's a couple of little hairline cracks in it, but pretty much it's not in bad shape. But it's rough. Yes. And to me, like that would be a good seal coat. Would you would you look at seal coat in that or would you do the microsurface?

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:25:43You do a microsurfacing. So as long as as soon as you see the cracks appearing, it's past the seal coat. Okay. So therefore you need to do microsurfacing. Uh the more cracks, that means you need to do mill and pave. So as soon as the microserfacing, as soon as the cracks, Start appearing. Then you do the microsurfacing. Yeah. How does the cost

   Jack Mariano

   1:26:04compare to let's say microservicing compared to repaving percentage wise? It's like ten percent, fifteen percent, twenty percent.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:26:10Okay, so so I can um looking at it, uh microservicing really is about like thirty-five thousand dollars per lima.

   Jack Mariano

   1:26:18Compared to?

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:26:19Compared to if we are doing FDR, it's about five hundred thousand dollars per limitable. Get

   Jack Mariano

   1:26:24FDR, just regular mail and service.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:26:26Regular mail service you are looking at roughly $150,000. So

   Jack Mariano

   1:26:31about a fifth.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:26:32Yes, it's about probably five times.

   Jack Mariano

   1:26:39Okay. And if you um If you're gonna seal coat you'd rather do that in like year six, seven, or eight. Yes, roughly.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:26:46Because you are trying to bring it up. But ask for back to life again, ask for after many years. because of the sun and the environment, the elasticity of the asphalt goes away, then leads to cracks. Uh so you want to just rejuvenate the surface again. Okay and then it gives it additional five years, three to five years.

   Jack Mariano

   1:27:04So if you put the microservicing down, it's gonna cover the crack and it's not gonna buckle under it later on.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:27:09Yes, actually in the microservicing, before you do that, you seal the cracks.

   Jack Mariano

   1:27:13Seal the crack first. Okay.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:27:14So that is why you don't want to wait till too many cracks, then you sparse the microservicing, then you need to do mill and pave. Okay. All right, thank you. Right. Next slide please.

   1:27:27Okay, so um I'm not gonna go through the current process of PVA since we all know what it is. Um, but if you look at some of the pros and cons, and we've provided this on all the options. On the left, the current process, property owners. Determine when a road should be paid. Okay, the um keep in mind the failure rate for petition is 70%. or the commission decides to do a false assessment or uh board initiated assessment. Uh on the right, um

   1:28:00We tested the whole roles, local roles in the county and all that. We spent money doing that. So we have information on the data. Um that the the um what we call the staff, we don't make that decision. To pave the road. The road is being made by residents who, in terms of when the road should be paved, they want to pave it when it's really, really bad. And even that, uh, the failure rate is seventy percent. Uh the second thing is administrative

   1:28:30cost is very high. There are the ballots that are sent out, mails are sent out, there are workshops, there are public meetings, they are HOA meetings, there are BCC meetings. On the other options, you wouldn't have all that. So administrative cost is very high. Also high maintenance costs. Because when we fix a road Then we don't do anything until the portal starts coming up. It's very frustrating to residents to see roles

   1:29:01that are beyond Port Opachin and to also the staff. who are back there portal patching roles, spending a lot of money for roles that really. are beyond power patching and they need to be reconstructed. Also, the PVAS program is funded by what we call a seed money. So we have some seed money in there. that funds the program is very limited. and as people pay back, then we use that money, uh just like it's like a revolving, you know, uh loan. It's very limited.

   1:29:31You know, the program is growing, people are, you know, roads are being paved, but the money is not sufficient. Um Also, when you talk to many uh residents, when I'm out there, uh they say, Well, I already pay my property taxes. Why are you assessing me all this money? So that is a very big con for this particular program. Next slide please.

   1:29:56So option two is what we call P VAS Plus and it's just A combination of the current PVAS. So you don't get rid of the current PVAS. But what it's saying is the program that I was talking about. current program, we pave the road, then we don't do anything else. This is going to allow us, once the road is PAS, Then we come in there and then uh we are able to do the sort of thing I'm talking about, road preservation. Um And then that extends the life of the road. And we are saying

   1:30:26all roles, if this program is what is adopted, all roles that are PIVAS, have been PIVAS in the past five years, qualify. And also any new road that comes into the program, like new subdivision roads.

   1:30:41This means that residents will be assessed on additional money, you know, to come up with this new preservation program, which is going to save a whole lot of money compared to how it's currently being done. Uh and then the last thing is um we will have to modify the current special assessment ordinance to be able to do that. Next slide please.

   Mike Moore

   1:31:03Mr. Chairman, can I ask a question real quick?

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:31:05Yes.

   Mike Moore

   1:31:05I'm a little behind on it, but I want because I want to let you finish. That's the next thing. Um are you familiar with the HA5? Sealer.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:31:15H A five, uh I'm not very familiar with that.

   Mike Moore

   1:31:23You're not familiar with it? Maybe look into it. Something that's supposed to lock the road in time. Um so instead of adding additional layer that roads off preserves it and helps stop water beginning.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:31:33Yes. Yeah. So so that is that is probably surface rejuvenation, uh, because they have different names for different types that are out there. So sub surface rejuvenation is a general term for for for the um for the type of products that are out there.

   Mike Moore

   1:31:48Yeah. I think it's may mainly designed for again local neighborhood roads and things, not major

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:31:53highways,

   Mike Moore

   1:31:54right?

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:31:54Yes, correct.

   Mike Moore

   1:31:56Something you've looked into or or thought about. I don't know if I think maybe is it more cost effective?

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:32:01Very cost effective.

   Mike Moore

   1:32:02Okay.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:32:03So if this rejuvenation is very, very cost effective per lema.

   Mike Moore

   1:32:06Okay. Okay. So I don't know if that's something you're doing. Could be thought about to save m money. Yes. Okay.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:32:15Okay, so um having the current uh PVA, if we uh the option of PVAS plus, that means the current PVAS stays. Now what it's gonna do, the difference between this and option one is um Eventually over the long run, if we keep doing the PIVAS and then applying these strategies, the cost of the roads are going to decrease in terms of road maintenance because it's extending the life of the road. And also, you know, we, the county is applying the strategies, there's

   1:32:46control by public work staff to be able to determine based upon data, what we need to do to roles that have been P VAS. The other pro is that the administrative burden is going to go down. uh and um as role gain rules gain the benefits of preservation strategies. That you see that there wouldn't be too many roles, P Vas road coming before the board for approval, because their lives are being extended. Obviously, when you apply these preservation strategies, you

   1:33:17wouldn't see a puddle in a long time. They are not going to appear. The concept is that there's going to be a slightly higher direct cost to property owners because there's going to be an additional, not as much as what is being charged now for PIVAS, but there's going to be probably some, I'll say about 30%, 20% of what is being paid to have to implement the new program. And the cons is that the residents are not going to be in the position to

   1:33:47determine when their road needs to be. uh to be maintained uh based upon doing this um uh preservation strategy. Yeah, there's there's a note there that says that um Jeff's department is to take a look at that later on, the legal vetting. There's a caveat out there. Yeah. The

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:34:09county attorney isn't particularly happy with this option. Okay.

   Kathryn StarkeyVice Chair

   1:34:13And what

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:34:14I hear you. Because

   1:34:19As it's been described. I don't think it's legal.

   Kathryn StarkeyVice Chair

   1:34:23Oh.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:34:24The the Yeah. Yeah you can't justify a special assessment Based on a flat fee in outgoing years. There's a way to do this, but Like it says. This one is still being vetted to I think what I'm saying. To get to where staff wants to be with this one, you'd have to create MSBUs for each neighborhood that you did a PPAS for. And

   1:34:54then on a yearly basis, the maintenance could be specially assessed for that subdivision. Once you start doing flat fees once you're doing well, once you're doing flat fees, this is tax. And so it'll be struck down as an illegal tax.

   Kathryn StarkeyVice Chair

   1:35:11Okay. You can

   Jack Mariano

   1:35:14Yeah sure. So part of the struggle that I would see as well is w when I think of I'll just bring up Seven Oaks again. They maintain their roads, they go through. How do you put them in a group other than a separate M S B U from them, or would they just maintain

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:35:26their own roads? So the county attorney's favorite option is the last one that Branford will present to you. Yeah.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:35:36Yeah.

   1:35:40Yeah. So yeah, let me go ahead and uh he's right.

   1:35:46Okay, okay. I know, it's a

   Jack Mariano

   1:35:49bit like time on you more

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:35:50until

   Jack Mariano

   1:35:51we can get some feedback

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:35:52from All right. So so uh again this is just discussions and then we can come back with the details. Option three is the countywide non-advalorium assessment. Uh this is just something like the P vals but over all the county, but then the county has control of when the road needs to be paved and we are able to apply the maintenance strategies, the preservation strategies that I talk to. So everybody uh is gonna be um um the the the involving this. It's based upon tree jet generation. So that means businesses will

   1:36:22have to contribute to that. Um and then we'll have to come up with a new special assessment if we decide to do that to really uh implement that. Uh next slide.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:36:33That's the county attorney's least favorite option. Just letting you know. I think this one is least favorite for the first time.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:36:42The pros here is that again, you know, uh uh we are able to apply the preservation strategies I talked about for all the roads. Um funding uh it's not gonna be an issue uh as it is sometimes for the PVAS because of the seed money. Uh administrative um burden, uh there wouldn't be all the Um mailing ballots and workshops and everything else. Um also there's going to be reduced cost Um over many years because you are not going to be

   1:37:12seeing a whole lot of portal in a long time. Um And then this is going to allow us to address the dead roots that, you know, are always a big thing for for everybody. Now the cons is is is similar to the last um slide, you know, that um um Now, property owners are not going to be making the decision anymore as to when the arrow should be paved. Uh and um uh the thing about this is that uh businesses may not, you know, like that because, you know, then um

   1:37:43And also business may not like that. And also the C D Ds and the private communities are gonna be Maybe may they may take a look at their assessment in a different way, even though they could be excluded on this one. Okay, so there could be some perceptions out there. Next slide, option four.

   1:38:05Right, as opposed to the first uh option three, this is uh at Ballorum taxation. Uh again, this is gonna be um uh what we have for abhorrent taxation but for it it's for fixing local rules, residential roads and there will have to be a new ordinance um that uh we'll have to put in place if this option is selected. Next slide.

   1:38:31Pros and cons are similar. Pros, life cycle, the road lifecycle cost, you know, is gonna be lowered because of the preservation we talked about. Uh we're gonna have funds to get this implemented. Uh administrative burden is gonna go down. uh maintenance cost is gonna go down uh because we wouldn't be out there patching potholes everywhere. Also we'll be able to address the dead roads and also the cons are similar to the last slide. Next slide.

   1:39:04Option five. Option five is what we call MSTU. And this is what we're going to be doing on this is also taxes, but then we should be able to exclude uh the CDDs and the other um communities that maintain their own local roads. A new ordinance will have to be put in place to have that done.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:39:26So you could draw to answer your question. That's why I said this was this was the way that you could do what you were asking to do. You can exclude the cities. You can exclude those C D Ds that are already doing their own road maintenance and you can exclude private roads. that are doing their own road subdivisions with private roads that are doing their own maintenance in on in With an MSTU.

   Kathryn StarkeyVice Chair

   1:39:51So the ad valorem the non ad valorem we could not exclude C Ds?

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:39:56Number three. the the non ad valorem county.

   Kathryn StarkeyVice Chair

   1:40:01Do I have a copy of this? A hard copy? I don't don't see one in any of my stuff. Did we get a copy of this? Just so I could not ask you this question.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:40:14Uh the option three, I think, which is which is the countywide non-advalorum assessment. I think as I said, is my least favorite. I think it's dead on arrival. I don't think there's a way I can fix it to make it legal.

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:40:29Oh okay. On this one there, now this um you exclude cities, you exclude uh C D Ds. Mm-hmm.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:40:43C D Let me because there are a bunch of C D Ds that are not doing their own road maintenance. They wouldn't be they wouldn't they wouldn't be a part of it. They wouldn't be excluded. They'd be taxed. Those that have been done in the last three years, let's say, that are doing their own road maintenance and specially assessing their residents for that road maintenance would

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:41:06Right. What was what does this do to the people that have just say they've just had a P VAS and they've Got their road. What would it do to those areas?

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:41:17It would can it would take it from where their road currently is now and they would get the um upkeep that that Brantford has has talked about. They they would They would get sealing when sealing is n is due. They would get microsurfacing when it is due.

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:41:38Oh, for future of a of a PVAS road. Right. As it says just done. So this will actually collect money that will take care of the future for their road. Yes. So they don't have to pay any more in. Right.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:41:51Mr. Chairman Mariano.

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:41:52Okay. Yes.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:41:54Um no. Okay. So the first one was the regular Pas. Um the PVAS plus was basically you get the initial fee and then there's an extra t I'm gonna make up a number, ten dollars on top of that a month. Um We're not talking about three. The millage rate would just be a flat fee for every everyone, but then we can't include the C D Ds and Homeowners. For the millage rate. But that would be flat and then C D Ds would get them.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:42:24So in in in number two, there'd be no millage rate. No.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:42:28I'm talking about number four. Where it's with the millage right.

   1:42:33I kinda went through all the time.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:42:35Yes, y it would be in your it would be in your general budget. You would fund transportation in your general budget.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:42:41But now are we including the CDs are we ho including the homeowners in that one?

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:42:46Yeah, that that's the Yeah.

   1:42:51The way four is characterized, it would be For everyone. For everyone.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:42:57Regardless if they paved their own roads. Okay. So then five.

   1:43:03I was trying to figure that one out. So basically

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:43:08Five is way

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:43:09for

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:43:09five is like you currently do fire. It ha it is not the entire county, but it is most of the county. Mm-hmm.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:43:17Okay. So basically you can pay X amount for ten years or you can pay X amount for forty years, but indirectly it's the same amount over the forty years that you're gonna be paying anyway, except one spread out and one in a lump sum.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:43:34Well, as Brantford said in the beginning of his presentation, the hope is that w if they are paying it every year, their roads will last longer and so the chunk of change is not going to be as large for them if you get it in time. Yeah. Nothing's gonna help the the the ones that have roads that are that have disintegrated now, there's somebody's gotta pay for that to be Made whole.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:44:04And then the P. But

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:44:05at the point what at the point that the road is made whole, we can make it last longer. Exactly. Yes.

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:44:13Mr. Chairman Mariano. Wait a minute. Ms. Starkey, you raise your hand?

   Kathryn StarkeyVice Chair

   1:44:17So um I did on on um Looking I so I'm looking at option three, non-advalorum assessment, but I know the attorney says we're not doing that one. So um but I but this is kind of confusing the way I'm trying to compare them. I okay let me just back up and say I think we need to do something. I don't like the PVAS program. I think And and I I really don't like it now that I see that s seventy percent of them fail. So

   1:44:48seventy percent of the time we're wasting staff's time. And our time. And that's not a good idea. That's not a good Um So uh that's why I I'm pretty much for board board Board initiative. Board issue because if the cut if it's it's if someone in the neighborhood is trying to get the road fixed. It's because the road needs to be fixed.

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:45:12Brantford, how much how much will the money be charged?

   Kathryn StarkeyVice Chair

   1:45:15But here but here's my question. On When we were on some of them There's commercial commercial RSS, right? But Um Commercial is normally on a collect well, it's on a collector or arterial road. So in so by assessing commercial and ad again Well, I don't know if it's again, but they'll be helping to pay for the neighborhood roads. Is that

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:45:41What happens in the right-of-way for you know for attribute for option four um Five, four, and

   1:45:53be everybody in the county. Um, and so, you know, yes, they will paying for the local road. Their whole idea is because of their impact of the businesses on the local roads. Okay. But they'll that'll be the that'll be the methodology behind it, uh tree generation. Have you put a number on it to what you would need to collect over the county? If you did number five. Yes, I I don't we don't have the number in uh here yet. The hope is that you can direct us and you can go back and bring back the numbers. Because of

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:46:21all of them I like number five better because The problem with Pas is nobody wants to pay for their road. Right. Right. To begin with. So if they're paying lesser amount in, then it's good. Yeah,

   County Administrator

   1:46:33Mr. Chair, the the reason we don't have really an answer on number five is we would need to go in and exclude every C D D R Other housing group that maintains their own road, right? Because you uh those would be excluded. And so that's not a you know, a a three hour GIS operation. We wanted to kind of get some more direction before we have somebody actually dive into that because that's gonna be a pretty intensive project for somebody to dive into that because you know, a

   1:47:03C D D that maintains our own road shouldn't be part of you know, uh well, uh what option five would be. If you if you want to include a C D D that maintains Ron Road or an HOA that maintains private roads, then option four would be the way you'd want to go. But right, you know, I as I yeah kind of in line with, you know, the county attorney, option five is probably the one that Sounds like it makes the most sense.

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:47:25Yeah, it does it does to me. Number one they don't want um number one, they don't want to pay P VAS, so that that doesn't work. Number two, they don't w still don't want to pay P VAS. So I mean And then you get number three and you can't do that one. So you go to number four, I like five over four because I think it makes it fair for everybody that's gonna be Preparing their roads in the future.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:47:48And Mr. Chairman

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:47:49Mariano.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:47:50What about the people that just have paid all that money for their current P VASEs? Yeah, they may be upkeeping it, but I know with the P BAS Plus when you originally presented this to me, the P BAS Plus you still had to do the original paving assessment. And the original P Vass. And then still pay an additional so much every single month or every year.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:48:14For the future. Yeah. Yes. Now if five option five is picked up, uh the the the the communities that road will be asset that will be taxed are the ones that road the arrows are in a bad condition. If your road has already been P VAS and it's in a good condition, I think it's going to be a while before you come under option five. Okay, so

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:48:36if we just had the roads P VAS then w Sorry.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:48:39Yeah.

   Jack Mariano

   1:48:44One that just got done, it's five years before it even gets done to it to come along and that that road's gonna last a long time. The other the other flip side of that too is what about the person on a dirt road? All of a sudden I'm just gonna pay this an X amount of dollars to do it and I'm gonna get a road paved. That doesn't sound like it's fair it'll be fair either, because that can eat up a whole bunch of money real quick to keep a shortfall.

   Kathryn StarkeyVice Chair

   1:49:03Maybe they have to wait a long time before they get to the

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:49:06scheduled Yes. So so so won't be all paved at one time all dirty.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:49:16all the roads in Pasco County, arterials collectors and local roads. We have a very good data. We have a good, very good pavement management system. uh with a lot of algorithms in there that can decide. objectively, what road needs to be paved, you know, whether it's dead road or so, So in wherever this program has been implemented uh a paving management system you know is used to help make that decision. So we are not going out today paving all dead roads. And so They're gonna

   1:49:46come in at the right time that, you know, I mean there wouldn't be a whole lot of impact on the other programs.

   Jack Mariano

   1:49:51Right, but I think if you had everybody with a dirt road coming in at one time and you looked at what that number would be, it would be a phenomenal number. Somehow you gotta break out those dirt roads. So they're gonna pay an upfront number as well. as this regular thing. Otherwise you're gonna bankrupt the program.

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:50:04But here's here's the other thing too, Jack. You gotta gotta remember you you've got citizens all over the county, so you can't do all my dirt roads and you get nine paved. So it had to go in districts and do 'em along so everybody it makes everybody happy but eventually you get to 'em but it takes time. So

   County Administrator

   1:50:25I think you commissioner, Yeager point because this isn't an easy program to unwind, right? Because a as you point out, those that have just had their road paved and they're paving paying L P VAST for the next ten years. How do you How do you treat them? Right, that's gotta be part of whatever solution we come up with, that has to be part of the answer. In addition to the dirt road issue. You know, right now on on the fire MSTU, the undeveloped property isn't part of the MSTU. Right.

   1:50:56We don't we don't the MSTU doesn't match the county boundary.

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:50:59So somehow you have to have uh forgiveness because you just paid for rather than paid for. So there's got a period of time if you forgive it and then start it Say the road's good for eight years or ten years. You forget 'em 'cause they just got a P VAS done. They paid for it. And started at that time when it comes you know, prior to it being ready for maintenance.

   County Administrator

   1:51:22So

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:51:23so you have money for

   County Administrator

   1:51:23it. So I guess I I don't think I've heard from everybody, but I But I think What I'm kinda hearing is kind of coal listening on a round a way to try to make option five work, but we gotta look at how do we treat The cart? people that are current paying PVAS or recently have been paying PVAS. How do you deal with the dirt roads? Right. So there are still other options we gotta figure out as part of it. But that's kind of why we wanted to have the discussion today. Because now we can go back and research those. Right. You

   1:51:53know, public works, GIS, County Attorney's Office, and figure out what that looks like and then bring you back something that's a little more baked, if you will. 'Cause right now we're There are a lot of issues in there. You just can't move from one to the other without unwinding some existing stuff today.

   Jack Mariano

   1:52:10Yeah. Let me let me uh let me throw this idea. You've heard you've heard me talk along US nineteen, come up and down. You'll see a lot of white signs, you'll see a lot of green signs. So the white ones non-conty maintained. Those things had terrible shape. I've only seen like one paving assessment done up and down on on one road that I think somebody was done or they did. How do you assess those and when do they come into play as far as bringing them up?

   County Administrator

   1:52:33Another great question.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:52:34Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So so those are some of the rules we call B-roads.

   1:52:42We probably will have to bring them in. Um For the county to accept them. And then they become part of our maintenance responsibility. And then you can include them in there. Yeah. Fitzpatrick.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:52:55Thank you. So I have four things. I'm not going to I've been raising my hands. Okay. So the current PVAS, if they've are in a current PVAS and maybe they have a current PVAS discount and maybe their PVAS doesn't start for eight years or ten years, it should shouldn't they shouldn't have to pay the one and the other fee at the same time or kind of stagger it. Um two, I think someone had mentioned Moon Lake to redo all those roads with their dirt roads was forty million dollars.

   County Administrator

   1:53:24It's a big number.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:53:26About thank you. For confirming that. And then so basically I'll I'd be curious to the break-even amount and uh would we be paying how much a month for the rest of our life compared to if we were coming in? So if you're paying an extra ten dollars a month for 40

   1:53:45Years that would be I don't know. Anyways, so if you're paying three hundred to six hundred a year or if you're paying $120 a year and then over the life, it's gonna be cheaper at what break even analysis point can you give us? So if I'm gonna pay three hundred to six hundred dollars for ten years, Is it gonna are we gonna pay

   1:54:08A fourth of that? Over ten years? They don't

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:54:10know the number.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:54:11Like a hundred and fifty over ten years and then it would be brook broke even.

   Brentford Adumwa

   1:54:14Yes, well what we're gonna do is we're gonna go back, you know, I'm taking notes in here and come up with that information for you. Um but we did take a look at it like that, you know, but the data is not finalized so we can come back with Because

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   1:54:27you don't wanna end up paying more or less, but you want it fair all across the board.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:54:32Thank you. Understand this program would only be for public roads. Correct. It would not so those dirt roads that are private dirt roads are going to remain private dirt roads. Yes. I mean that And public roads that are dirt There is some cost savings to the county because we don't have to send a grader out anymore.

   County Administrator

   1:54:56Correct.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:54:57It's it's not gonna be a complete wash, but you're gonna have some savings for For that. So all right. So maybe that does

   Jack Mariano

   1:55:05help as far as taking care of the dirt road when they do become in to become a Well, they want to get paved. Maybe that's the time we take him into The county system And put them into the program too.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:55:17Or you put them in the program and they fund the greater operations until they become

   County Administrator

   1:55:22Right. Yeah, because we do some of those we run through pretty Routinely.

   Ron OakleyChair

   1:55:28Yeah. Oh yeah. In my area especially. Yeah.

   1:55:32They run it all the time. Excuse me.

   Kathryn StarkeyVice Chair

   1:55:36I just have a procedural question. So um you'll do your homework, you'll come back to us. Then do we have to go through the ordinance review and is it a month-and-month thing or what's the process?

   County Administrator

   1:55:52I think it's gonna depend on the answer. And and if I I mean i i it really is, but my guess is this is not gonna be solved, you know, in the next quarter. It's gonna take us time to do some research 'cause we gotta vet some of the numbers that are out there. Uh, we got some pretty significant subcategories we need to look at and see what that means as well. walk through different options of how to work that process together, you know, with the county attorney's office to be able to bring you something that's reasonably well vetted. that

   1:56:23can form the start of a program and then you can say, yes, that makes sense. We want to do it, or then tweak it. So it's almost like this is step one. The next step is to come back with a more fully vetted option five with a lot of those sub questions answered Then you say yes, then you ask more questions, we refine it, and then bring you back something you can actually move forward on. So this is probably going to be step one of a three or four step process. for you to actually take action. It's not gonna be solved in the next quarter or

   1:56:53two.

   Kathryn StarkeyVice Chair

   1:56:54And so and and so it's it's good to know that. But I so then I'm wondering, I mean like Buena Vista. That road is almost become a dirt road with potholes. And so I don't want that. Це стап. I um also there is a road in Trinity Oaks that is uh in really, really bad shape. I in the last big storm drove into a humongous pothole that I'm surprised I could drive out of

   1:57:24it. Um they're I believe they're going through a PVAS program. Um I can't remember the name of the road right now. Uh so what's gonna happen to the ones that are in the process now? I don't want it to stop, you know?

   County Administrator

   1:57:40I mean I would suggest that that those that are still in process the board hasn't changed the program until the board changes the program. Yes. And so I think we continue to work the existing program until the board changes the program.

   Kathryn StarkeyVice Chair

   1:57:50And then we have the one in uh

   County Administrator

   1:57:52and understand

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:57:53if you're going for number five.

   1:57:58Even if we got it together and got the board to adopt it by this December. You wouldn't See it for the following. We also have to catch a tax cycle. So the twenty twenty-three fiscal year would be about the first time. Yeah. The first time you'd be able to see this on a tax bill.

   Kathryn StarkeyVice Chair

   1:58:20Well, I just wanna uh I know I had some amendments that were very concerned. They want the PVAS to go away. Of course, I d I said just because it's gone away doesn't mean something, you know, something obviously has to replace it. Um so they they are listening today. So um Yeah, I think we want to You know, I hear it all the time, especially from people who've moved from other places here. That They've never heard of the way we do it. And I think you've said that yourself. And we're an unusual

   1:58:51animal in the way that we're doing it. And uh there'll be a little transition period, but I hope we get we definitely get away from this way. Especially seventy percent of your time is wasted. That's that's a sad number.

   Jack Mariano

   1:59:07Mr. Chairman Mariano. Yeah, sure. The uh the Road Bridge Fund. We've never funded that in Past sixteen years anyway. How was that fund set up? What what was that designed to do? Do you know?

   County Administrator

   1:59:19The the transportation avalarm.

   Jack Mariano

   1:59:24What

   County Administrator

   1:59:24what was

   Jack Mariano

   1:59:25what was that set up for and how was that supposed to work?

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:59:31I'm sure Dan doesn't know because I've been here longer and I don't know.

   1:59:37There's

   County Administrator

   1:59:38a good answer. Just being honest.

   1:59:44But that's a vehicle that's a vehicle that's in place already.

   Kathryn StarkeyVice Chair

   1:59:46That's the way a lot of places

   County Administrator

   1:59:48funded is it is admin. But you would not exclude those that maintain their own roads if you went that route. Right. Yeah, H O C D's, anybody that maintains their own road. Right. Yeah.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   2:00:02Maybe Mr. Chairman Mariano.

   County Administrator

   2:00:04Go ahead.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   2:00:05Thank you. Then maybe the people that are going through their current PVAS are exempt until they reach t the amount that they would have paid in under the new project?

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   2:00:15Well I hate hate to say this without researching it, but what's coming to mind is what you may be able to do, and I'm not sure how complicated this would be, is you would use the millage colli collected to fund the payment of their liens.

   2:00:35So if they've had a PVAS and there's a lien on the books their millage would pay that lien down for them. And so you wouldn't be billing twice. Yeah. There's a way to figure

   County Administrator

   2:00:49it out. We need to go do some research.

   Ron OakleyChair

   2:00:52We'll come back with some options out of that on that way of figuring

   County Administrator

   2:00:55out. But I I Brantford, do you kind of got direction?

   2:01:01We good? Yeah. Yeah, I mean I I appreciate the discussion because we had a lot of questions as we're going through this.

   Ron OakleyChair

   2:01:08Yeah.

   County Administrator

   2:01:08That we really need needed some I think

   Ron OakleyChair

   2:01:10that's

   County Administrator

   2:01:11been good discussion. Guidance on because of some of the there are some challenges to unwind the existing program. Ms. Fitzpatrick.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   2:01:21My last question, sorry. Um For the tax lien. For when someone out s when someone's getting their roads paved. Can that follow the home or does it have to follow the homeowner?

   Brentford Adumwa

   2:01:35It follows the property. Those

   County Administrator

   2:01:37are the

   Brentford Adumwa

   2:01:37property. The benefiting property.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   2:01:39Okay. I thought someone said it has the lien has to be paid off before. So currently

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   2:01:45what happens is when you sell your property, the title company clears the lien and pays it off. That's what currently is The practice.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   2:01:58Because that's what I've heard is oh well if I move in three years and they're paying their taxes over ten years, then they're paying for a service that they're not gonna ever be able to utilize later on 'cause they're selling their home. So then the new homeowner would take over the payments.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   2:02:14Yeah.

   Christina Fitzpatrick

   2:02:15I guess it was changed to

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   2:02:16millennials. But what happened w i it's more a function of what happens in a real estate closing and that's I'm not gonna buy your house if it has a five thousand dollar lien on it. So it comes out of closing, we get paid off. So we're going to be able to do that.

   Ron OakleyChair

   2:02:47Okay. Any other questions?