SA-23-0020

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TranscriptWhat was said at each appearance is below it. Machine transcription, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 85% of 54 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.

1. 1Jan 24, 2023
   Board of County CommissionersC27Consent agendaApproved

   Approved minutes

   Approved Staff’s recommendation.

   Open this item →▶ Play from 1:25:33
   ▶ 1:25:3313m

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:25:33Okay, uh C twenty seven, Commissioner

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:25:35Oakley. Uh yes, this is uh I believe uh Project Two Rivers project. And a few weeks ago it came forward to me that Uh part of that's in Hillsborough County and part of it's in Pasco County. And I was uh it just struck me wrong when the fact of it was that they were gonna build bigger lots, bigger homes in Hillsworth County than there were Pasco County.

   Kathryn Starkey

   1:26:00Yep.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:26:01And I didn't necessarily care for that. And I don't know and I I guess I just brought this up so we could discuss it, but someday we gotta quit forties and fifties. Well we'll have our county looking Not so good like we would like it to look. So someday we've got to shift and have bigger and better lots, better homes. in in those areas that we're gonna build homes. But and get away from just for you. So I I don't know, uh Mr. Kabala, do

   1:26:31you have answer on um And this is going forward because it it's out of the box that it's gonna be these 40s but is there a mix and match in the Uh forties, fifties, and larger size in in Pasco County on that part, or is it all forties?

   Mike Carballa

   1:26:49I'd probably have to defer to planning on what's in the two rivers MPUD. I would imagine typically there is a there is a mix. Um but Terry, do you have any information on on two rivers?

   Nectarios Pittos

   1:27:08Uh to Nictoria's Pito's Planning Development. So the question is just for me to recap. If there's a mix of lots within

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:27:15two rivers? Mix of lots on well there is because there's large lots I hear in Hillsborough. But in Pasco are we all forties or small lots or Do we have a mix match of different size lots? 'Cause I think A while back we Made in Br I believe it was March or March a year ago that we said we would like to have a mix of forties, fifties and larger lots. So are these all forties or do you know? I mean I might be putting you on the spot but I Yeah, I I'd

   Nectarios Pittos

   1:27:44have to look at the plans specifically, but as I recall there there is a mix of forties and fifties. Now if there are sixties and seventies in there, I'd I'd really have to look at it. Two rivers the two rivers MPUD was approved in September of twenty twenty-one. And the direction the board provided um came about in March of twenty twenty two.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:28:06So

   Nectarios Pittos

   1:28:06since March of twenty twenty two we've been w actively working to create a much larger mix of unit types within developments. Um still there are some Uh provisions. Uh in the direction that was provided by the board that if More forty foot wide lots were to be added into development, they had to follow a particular style of development like Like uh traditional neighborhood design, rear loaded lot sizes, that sort of thing. Um So

   1:28:36to speak specifically to Two Rivers, I I'm not able to recall off the top of my head. Okay. But generally speaking Um that's my understanding as well that uh Two rivers straddles the two counties and larger lot sizes. Trended to be within Hillsboro. Uh-huh.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:28:57Yeah. I just like larger lots that won't to come more to Pasco than I had to Hillsboro, so Um Yeah, I brought this forward just to discuss, not do anything else, but just to discuss it and someday and I don't know exactly what we have to do in our zoning or whatever Some day we need to move away from these small odds. to larger lots for our county. So Yeah. Ms. Do I have something to say or uh Mr. Steinstein? So uh uh

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:29:26as I think the commissioner has acknowledged, the the action of approving a final subdivision plat is a ministerial act by the Board of County Commissioners. So long as it complies with the land development code and its zoning, you must approve it.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:29:40Right.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:29:41That does not preclude the dialogue that you're having. for future projects but I just wanna make sure that that's

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:29:48just that's part

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:29:48of the part of the record.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:29:50I'm just using this as an example of what we have coming on some of our projects. We've already approved them

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:29:55and and

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:29:55I'm not trying to stop them but I want to be careful that this train doesn't get bigger going down that track and and we can't stop it.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:30:04So the other the other thing that You should. take heed of, I guess, is that As with all of your M PvDs You set those lot types When you approve the zone the it's unlike Euclid unlike straight zoning, Euclidean zoning, where the zoning category classifies what lot sizes you're gonna find in that project because they've got minimums. Um That

   1:30:34decision is up to the Board of County Commissioners when they approve the MPUD zoning district. So as many of those conditions are that you see attached that staff provides for you, one of them is What size lots they can have. Or could be what size lots they can have. Okay. Um Mr.

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:30:56Starkey?

   Kathryn Starkey

   1:30:57Um just on a comment on the forty foot lots um of being rearloaded. I for an example of what these look like, you have um Starkey Ranch and you have Bexley. And so for you commissioners who may not know what we're talking about. I would suggest you drive through there, right right down the street. And When you have a forty foot rear loaded product Well when you have a forty foot wide front loaded product, all

   1:31:27you have is a garage and a door. and an and a driveway and a Sorry, I'm still

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:31:32not sure about that.

   Kathryn Starkey

   1:31:34Well I'm positive. I have no idea how that happened.

   Gary Bradford

   1:31:44They had nothing to do with that.

   Kathryn Starkey

   1:31:45I didn't even touch the phone. Oh, that's so funny. The thing Siri says, um But when you have a rear loaded product it's a much different presentation to the community and parking and feel. So I encourage you to see what that is that we're talking about because um I think you'll see some good examples of why we should encourage that. Uh I am gonna say I'm not a planner. Um but I'm pretty sure our comp plan says density

   1:32:16along the southern border of our county. But we should uh and we should In my opinion, there should be areas where we don't allow forties. that it's should be larger lots. And I think that I that may be what Hillsboro has, I don't know. Because I I see When you get to the northern part of Harrisboro it's much more rural. Then of course you get to the Pasco County line and then it's then it's dense to rule. And it seems like communities develop that way, dense to rule, dance to rule, but um As

   1:32:47we redo our comp plan, I think that's our opportunity to make changes and and again I want to talk about the form-based code. And hope that we're working towards having a presentation. But um anyway, rear loaded forties and fifties is a whole different animal than front loaded.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:33:03Terry we'll meet separate and before so go over this uh 'Cause we're doing things in the rural area and looking at things are for the future, so But we'll look more. I just thought we ought to have this dialogue. We got two new commissioners so they can understand What's happening in in some of these developments. So very good. Okay.

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:33:22And I I'll say that uh I think from the conversation we had, uh Commissioner Weightman brought it up, we talked about it as well. The lot size uh the Temper Bay Builders Association met with me yesterday. We talked about this. Uh interesting enough, at the start of the day I actually had a meeting with a gentleman with a rent-to-owned product. And I says, you know, really I I don't want to see more rent towns. I want to have home ownership. Our business community wants to see it. Uh I think people are investing more community when they're in there. Right. These rent owns are nothing more than really apartments just in a different

   1:33:52Style.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:33:53Yeah,

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:33:53and

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:33:54I'm afraid what they're gonna look like down the road to the right-of-way.

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:33:56And exactly. In forty four fifty years when it's done, what have what have you got?

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:34:00Yeah.

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:34:00And we don't we don't know. Um So uh they they had a good com it was a good conversation. Build a run. Okay. Sorry. Um That's right, thank you. Um so in those conversations, they're gonna go take a take a look at that a little bit, but When we talk up here, it actually resonates out there strongly. So all all the things we're saying are affecting what they're looking at. Uh we talked a little bit uh quite a bit about the forties and fifties. Uh they even talked about to make it more affordable, maybe if it was a

   1:34:30longer driveway, uh if they changed the width of the street and put the sidewalk right to the front, made help with the landscaping as well. So they're looking at things and they'll be talking with all of us uh through the time. But uh I think this type of conversation is important. And and you know to To hear that Hillsboro County had got the bigger lots, we got the smaller lots. Right. Our values just went down. in the county. And I don't think it's what we want. Um so for us to negotiate, I think we gotta

   1:35:00gotta negotiate stronger. minimize those forties and fifties and and and work for bigger. So if that means we've got to put another direction out there, maybe it's something that we need to uh do a a mini a agenda item for it to kind of bring it back to say instead of having a mix of this fifty percent that's gonna be forties and

   1:35:20We we need to give them the direction to go forward. Right. So I think if maybe we can set an agenda item up to bring it back, let's let's have the discussion on it. Um and again as we talk about parking is a is a big issue, parking on the streets uh big issues. And I think Uh Commissioner Starkey, you'll like this. We talked about Um Pulty Homes doing that nice project where they had the backloaded uh real re rear loaded project and it looks phenomenal.

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:35:46Yeah.

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:35:46Uh when you can actually walk out in the front of your house get to a trail that may take you to the library, to a park, whatever. That's like great quality of life. And and I think They would do more of those if they had better incentives to do so because it is more expensive to build it. Now over in Beacon Woods, uh Beacon Woods East, they have a linear park right on 5A Road. They got credit for putting a trail there, running all the way through. Now they have to maintain it. but that trail running down there which they maintain they got credit for having a linear park and

   1:36:17that was part of the park thing. So between giving them maybe some credits on the park Um uh mandatory s uh requirements that we have. Maybe we give them a credit for that. Maybe we give them a transportation discount if the trail is big enough that connects to something else. to go forward. So that could be part of a discussion too, to make a better product, which is what we're gonna be looking for long term.

   Kathryn Starkey

   1:36:37What um well when we have this discussion, I'm sure we'll look at a lot of things, but I know that one of the costs that in the past have made it expensive to do rear loaded. Is the requirement that our fire marshal was requiring for the width of a alley. But I think there are ways that we can make that much less expensive and I've seen it around the country and I think we're working on that too. And but that is a big cost is the alley and there are ways to get that.

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:37:07Mr. Starkey I'm glad you brought that up, because that was one of the points that did come up as well. And when you look at that. We have some neighborhoods right now that we permitted that used to have a let's say w normally would a style would be a cul-de-sac at the end. Um at the cul-de-sec the fire truck would have enough width to turn around. We've allowed them now to actually have a r roadway going down further where the fire trucks got to actually back up. If we're allowing that, we should be able to work with that issue there on these rear loaded as well.

   Kathryn Starkey

   1:37:33What what has always amazed me is if you have a a a standard home with a driveway in the front The fire trap pulls up to the front. on these rear loaded houses, you can still access the front, but now you can access the front and the back. So Why why are we making it more difficult with with the fire? Fire fire stuff. So um you actually have I I don't see why we should have that rule. And I think that's a self-inflicted rule here

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:38:01in the county. So I think if we could have that discussion, even get the get the f get the fire folks involved as well, let's let's bring it back and have a little more in-depth conversation with it. Okay.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:38:10Well I thank I thank you for Allow us to bring this up and to have this discussion I thought was very important at this time. So Uh I appreciate that. With that I would uh move to approve Uh C twenty seven. Second.

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:38:24All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay. All right, so I have an eleven thirty time certain, the R thirty-seven bid protest. Um who's gonna address that for us, Mike?

   Gary Bradford

   1:38:45Okay, okay. How's it going to be seen?