Legal Update and Enforcement Options for Roadway Solicitation (Panhandling) Ordinance

53:02Okay, we'll uh skip over R fifty five and go to R fifty six. County Attorney.

53:12If you get a chance, that that rubble pile is very interesting.

53:16Mr. Chairman, I have uh Patrick Moore, Senior Assistant County Attorney, uh, who is here based on your last meeting to give you an update on enforcement options for roadway solicitation.

53:30Okay.

53:30Thank you. Good morning, Pat More County Attorney's Office. Um I so I was asked to come in here today to address with you the options related to our roadway solicitation ordinance. It's always often referred to as the panhandling ordinance. Um essentially I I'm gonna go through uh the options with you and ultimately I'm gonna ask the board to authorize the County Attorney's Office to amend our current ordinance and adopt some changes. that are proposed and direct board records to advertise it for public

54:01hearing when it's uh prepared, when it's ready. Um so first I want to kind of by way of a background go through our ordinance with you, our current ordinance. So the County's Court current ordinance was created. Uh for the purpose of protecting vehicular and pedestrian safety and the free flow of traffic. Um this purpose hasn't changed. Uh however, a current ordinance it makes it unlawful to solicit um or attempt to select solicit with the intent to receive a charitable donation, which is why it's often referred to as the panhandling

54:31ordinance. As far as enforcement goes, historically, uh direct citations haven't always been effective, um, which uh allow or cause the Sheriff's Office uh in in a in an attempt to enforce the ordinance uh to utilize the county's uh public roadway, public right-of-way trespassing ordinance. In other words, Sheriff's Office, they see a violation of our current ordinance, the solicitation

55:01ordinance, and then it would allow them to trespass a person or persons from that location or an intersection. However, due to recent case law, the sheriff's office. Has uh decided not to enforce or utilize the ordinance uh in in order to trespass someone uh moving forward. Um in fact that's that's kind of across the board in the state of Florida. Law enforcement agencies across the state are deciding not to enforce many uh panhandling

55:32ordinances um in different counties as well. So, this discussion is something that many other jurisdictions are also struggling with. Um, and and the reason why this new case uh has caused this result is because it points out the infringements on First Amendment rights specifically related to. To free speech, as to uh requesting charitable donations and so on in

56:02uh public roadways. Um with that being said, um I I've looked at Lee County's recent ordinance that they adopted. I've attached that as exhibit, I believe it's exhibit as exhibit v to my memo. And um essentially uh it's it eliminates the solicitation aspect of it. It's been titled as Dangerous Use of Public Right of Wesley. Um and it and it has the same exact purpose as our current

56:32ordinance, uh essentially the safety of traffic, free flow of traffic, the pedestrian and and vehicular safety. Um what is different about this from our ordinance is it eliminates the concerns over the First Amendment and and specifically it eliminates any mention of solicitation or panhandling. Handling as a basis of a violation. Uh uh and and what this serves to do is is eliminate traffic concerns beyond just simply panhandling, but it incorporate

57:03uh violations uh that uh uh or excuse me, actions such as um you know physical interactions between vehicles, not limited to just the pedestrians but l but also the vehicle uh drivers or occupants themselves. Um and it also uh creates a violation for uh remaining in in medians or other areas of the road But what that means is is standing in a median, uh and I believe

57:33Lee County specifies uh of a certain size. Whether it's paved or unpaved, uh it's if it's at least if it's less than six feet wide, uh it would be a violation um of the ordinance. And it does not make mention of solicitation itself in the easement.

57:55Let's go back in history a little bit because I know there's people watching from home today. Um obviously the pain handling was very concerning to us as it was probably a lot of the citizens that are sitting in the audience today. Um it was happening across the county. Continues to happen in some areas and I'm sure Commissioner Starkey especially wants to wants to talk about it. So but you know, w when I first came on the commission of fourteen it was it was discussed about on you know numerous occasions. So the board enacted an uh the new ordinance

58:26And I will tell you, I mean, for a while though, it looked pretty good. It was still happening in some of the areas. We know that. But it was looking pretty darn good. Um not to knock newspapers, but at the same time, you know, that we had we had we had newspapers standing on every corner trying to sling their their newspapers everywhere there was in the medians and things, but it was a safety issue too. So there's the annoyance factor, there's the safety and the but there's also this safety, uh safety factor. People are literally getting hit by cars on nineteen. They and then it's not funny, but it they were literally getting hit by cars

58:56on nineteen. But At the same time, we have so many people that were harassing our drivers on county roads. I got a email, I don't get a lot in Wesley Chapel in my district. I'm just being honest with you. I mean after you know over time it did get cleaned up pretty good. We get the people that move up and down seventy five. I like call 'em irregulars, they're younger people, and you'll see 'em moving up and down and they'll stay by seventy five and fifty six in that area, but they'll disappear for a few weeks and then they'll reappear again. Um But

59:27I did get a call this weekend not a call, an email this weekend and I responded to the person this morning and told 'em what was going on, but they were seeing it around um certain areas of Wesley Chapel um g becoming more prominent again. I guess the word is on the street that it's not able to be enforced like it was, word spreads, people come back out again. Um I know I'm being long winded on this, but I want to make sure the people at home know that, you know, this is why we why we enacted this before, this is why it passed before I think Commissioner Oakley, I think were you here when

59:57we it might have been right before you got here. Well it happened in f maybe fifteen. What it happened when did it happen?

1:00:03Well it was a progression.

1:00:04Yeah, it was. But I don't know, Jeff, when did it or final

1:00:07progression to finally say that? I'm not sure when

1:00:08it was. Yeah, then we finally just c shut it out and said no more. You know, no leniency no more. Um So we understand what unfortunately what happens and and you know a a federal court judge once again thinks they know what's better for us than we know what's better for our community and they step in and Ruin it for all for everybody, right? And let's just be honest. I mean it's it's a fact. That's that's what happened, yet again. Um they're trying to set precedent for local governments, you know, closest to the people. Um

1:00:40So now we pay the price for it.

1:00:43So we're talking about options.

1:00:45Right.

1:00:46All right. But we I think we Patrick to help us out on this. Can we put the options up on on the screen? Is that a possibility? Um because you're reading options. But we really need to be able to refer to all the options.

1:00:58And um I I don't have anything to put up on the screen. I do I I did with the uh memo uh attach our current ordinance, um Lee County's ordinance as by way of example um to that as exhibits. Um I don't know if you have that pattern.

1:01:14I do. And um it's a big one.

1:01:16Yes.

1:01:18Uh and I know uh some of us when we when we've been at our FAC conferences and we've been talking about this, there are a number of counties who have enacted this this kind of safety ordinance. And I think it I think we should do the same. Um I'm I on a drive around holiday which I do regularly Um, they're at every intersection and um it's dangerous. They're they're walking down between the cars and Uh It's very you know, who wants

1:01:48to hit so hit someone driving walking down the street and it's just unsafe for our citizens.

1:01:54And what I can do is ex uh say to you is is what uh the example that I provide as exhibit lee counties ordinance says is it says that it is First, um unlawful to remain in a refuse which is essentially the median area, whether it's paved or not paved. Okay. If it's less than six feet. And unless you're actively unless you're actively crossing in a crosswalk and abiding by um the uh existing state laws

1:02:24related to what we would call jaywalking s statute. I've actually made reference to it in the memorandum. It's Florida statute uh three sixteen point one three oh now It also creates a second section that says it's unlawful in Lee County to uh have a physical exchange or physical interaction amongst the pedestrian and uh a vehicle. And uh uh in it and specifically notes a vehicle that's

1:02:54not lawfully parked. So in other words, in the roadway at an intersection, stopped at a a red light, stopped at a stop sign, and there's a physical interaction, it makes it a violation. So it almost simplifies uh what it exactly a violation is. Uh it removes any um uh uh contemplation of Of on the enforcement side, whether it's the sheriff's office or code enforcement, of trying to determine what the intent of the message is that the person's

1:03:25uh uh trying to relay, and it just says simply this is a violation. There's no physical interaction uh between a pedestrian and a vehicle.

1:03:34Mr. Chairman Mariano. Let's think about local roads a little bit too. So we think you know our major quarter is nineteen fifty-four and such, but we have quite a few local roads and neighborhood roads that aren't within a C D D or HOA. Um talk a little, I guess, more about what their protections are as well. I mean c because it it's not a major intersection. There's n a lot of lots of times are not stop signs. There's no traffic signals in those areas. I mean I don't what I want to make sure we're not doing is driving some of these people into like literally residential

1:04:04neighborhoods.

1:04:06Right. Well well this would protect uh uh any public road from for purposes of whether it's a major intersection or uh a smaller two-lane road, uh uh if someone's stopping in the middle of the road, for example, and interacting with someone that's on the side of the road there, it's the same the same effect, it doesn't limit it um uh it necessarily.

1:04:32Well no, yeah we we were just talking about stop signs and and and signal stuff. What if I what if a a person is walking down a sidewalk in a a residential neighborhood and has a, you know, um a sign that says, you know

1:04:46I need money, whatever it may say. Um and walking up in front of s a neighborhood in front of people's houses and things like that.

1:04:55Well that I mean that it well that wouldn't apply. I mean if they're on the sidewalk, uh that wouldn't apply in this situation. So holding up a sign uh standing on the sidewalk sidewalk is is essentially what this case that I'm addressing, this federal case in vague v shore uh states that you know that's a a protected uh right. Right. Uh you know, uh holding up signs, uh petitioning, uh protesting or what would be a good idea. Well we know that, but I'm talking about

1:05:25the

1:05:27essentially this court uh uh uh clarifies that uh and basically states that panhandling bagging it would be included in those those in in uh uh that's the

1:05:38tax collector's office here. Can we make them have a um what what what do we call it? A um uh uh a um business business tax receipt.

1:05:54Mr

1:05:54Chairman Mariano.

1:05:57Mr. Mariano? Mm.

1:05:58Thank you. This has been a a very sore subject in Hudson area. Probably probably the number one complaint I get is all the Pan Analyn Commissioner Starkey I'm sure you get just as many up and down. Uh they'll go on Beacon Woods Drive, which is right next to US nineteen. They'll stay right there and on and on they go. Uh they go down to fifty-two. Matter of fact, Alex, while you're here as well. Um there's a gentleman that's out there, he actually brings two children out there with him at nineteen and fifty two. If that's going on, that needs to

1:06:28stop. Someone needs to go call DCA and and and have that change right away. I just heard about that last night as we were talking about this. Um so I'm very Patrick, I want to thank you, Jeff, Christy as well for bringing this forward. Uh it was very quick to bring it back to what Lee County had done. And very simply it does the two things you need to do. It addresses uh stopping, standing, or otherwise occupying a median that is not sufficient pedestrian refuge. Perfect. All the way through that. The second part is what we talked about as far as try to get the people to understand

1:06:58they are gonna be in violation of the law if they give. Uh and that's in the second phase of engaging in any physical interaction between a pedestrian and an occupant of a motor vehicle. Those two things will help us tremendously. And I and I will tell everyone here, Dan especially, uh to Sally Code Enforcement. I can't think of a more important thing for code en o enforcement officers to do, at least in the Hudson area. to go attack this issue. Let the people know as they're giving And do it right in front of

1:07:28the people that are holding up these signs that you're not allowed to go do it. It may deter this b b behavior from going on. And I want to say with so many jobs that are available, we have people that can't hire people because they don't want to work. And I'm going to tell you, some of these guys address pretty well. and and had the opportunity to go to work if they wanted to. Uh matter of fact the people that were down at the fifty two and nineteen with the kids, I had a person who owned a restaurant, drove back to them, he goes, Do you need food? He goes, No, I really don't need food, I just need money. All

1:07:59right? That that's the type of thing that's going on. So I think I want to thank you guys tremendously. I encourage us to to be put forward, brought before the Board. I think it's it hits it perfectly but simply and and I think it can change quality of life for our citizens.

1:08:13Um So I I do want to bring something forward, but there's a couple challenges still, and that is enforcement. And um I don't know if Alex left. But he's right there. Oh, okay. So, you know, right now so what is what does enforcement look like? If you hand a homeless person a uh piece of paper that they have to pay money or something. They're just gonna they just crumble it up and Put it on the ground. I feel we're gonna have to get

1:08:45um a little tough for a little bit and get that message out there that this is not allowed in our county and we're gonna have to enforce it. Um and I understand that could be a revolving door, but it's not a nice revolving door, and we're and I just feel we have to enforce it. If we if we have something and it's not enforced, then what good is it?

1:09:03Yeah. That's a good thing. Can I just on your point? Mr. Chairman Mariano. And that's a good point about obviously getting the word out, and Commissioner Oakley and Cirque you both mentioned that. You know, I think with working with our PIOs, let's let's get the message out. We have opportunities. You know, on the billboards. We have space on the up billboards that the electronic billboards we can have. Let's tell people that this is Essentially illegal. You cannot do this. You will be cited as a driver if you're giving money out to these people in the corners. Right. So working with our teams to get the message out, that's what we're gonna have

1:09:33to do. Cause how if not, unless you're sitting in here watching this uh watching this from home you're not gonna know about it. So we gotta just we gotta spread the word and get it out there and do a public service program to get the message out.

1:09:44So I um was um solicited uh in front of my publix in on Southgate the other day by a a gentleman who um He didn't get so far to ask me anything. But I I went to my car and I thought I told my husband I have to go back and talk to him. And um He didn't look homeless or anything, but I I I went back and I said, Are you were you gonna ask me something? And uh he said, No, I just want you to have a blessed day or something.

1:10:15Uh yeah. I said, Are you are you in need of a job? And he said, Yes, I would love to have a job. And I gave him my phone number and I didn't ask my staff. I I said please call my office Monday morning. We have resources and we can help you get a job. And so you know My office, I just handed this to you. Um and and during commissioners items I'm gonna show you a video of some things in holiday. But we we made this brochure. That

1:10:45we could hand out to people. Um and I and uh I think the administrator's office Decided That it should be for the whole county. I personally think people on the west side aren't gonna care what's going on on the east side, so I think y'all should make your own. Um And uh I at first it said West Pasco Homeless Resources and I said you know what that's I didn't want to say that. So we said let's say West Pasco Life Resources. And I think I'm gonna um tweak it again

1:11:15to make sure that there is a big

1:11:22that we can help you get a job because I wanna help anyone who wants to work, I wanna help 'em work. That's that h helps end this problem. Then of course there's the mental health issues. Um but so we're gonna be handing this out to people I see on the street. And I I I'm giving this to all the uh HOAs and civic leaders that come to my Harbor South Leadership Council meeting to go back to their communities and print them out and give them to their people and when you see someone, we're we're

1:11:52not done with this yet. that might need some help help, give it to them and let's hope that they they take take some action for themselves. So but I am very much in favor of this ordinance.

1:12:04entire county. I agree.

1:12:05Yeah. Yeah, but I I I don't think there's anything wrong with having two. Because

1:12:11Uh main thing is to get the word out.

1:12:13Yeah. Yeah.

1:12:15Okay. So this is an action arm so

1:12:18move to a pr move to enact a new ord an ordinance similar to Lee County.

1:12:23I got a motion and a second. All those in favor that didn't work?

1:12:28And well,

1:12:29and

1:12:30direct board records to advertise the amendment for public hearing when it's ready.

1:12:33And do that.

1:12:34I'll say that.

1:12:35We have a motion and a second. All those in favor say aye. Aye. All opposed, like, sign. Motion passed 5-0. Thank you, Mr. More. Thank you.

1:12:43Thank you. Thank you.

1:12:44Good

1:12:44job, Patrick.