Zoning Amendment (Regular) – Renner MPUD – Darrell A. and Karen J. Renner – Rezoning Request from A-C Agricultural District and AR-1 Agricultural Residential District to an MPUD Master Planned Unit Development District to Allow 108 Single-Family Detached Units on Approximately 50.15 Acres – South Central Pasco County, on the South Side of Bexley Road, Approximately 1 Mile West of the intersection of U.S. Highway 41 and Wisteria Loop

1:42:39P one twenty four.

1:42:41Item P one twenty four was published in the Tampa Times on August 25th, 2021.

1:42:48Thank you, Chairman. Thank you, Chair Members. Jessica Cole with the Planning and Development Department. There have been some expartes sent to the clerk's office pertaining to this petition. Item P124 is PDD 227526 in the name of Daryl and Karen Renner for a requested change in zoning from AC Agricultural District and AR1 Agricultural Residential District to MPUD Mass. Master Plan Unit Development District to allow for 108 single-family detached units on approximately 50.15

1:43:19acres. The property is located in south-central Pasco County, on the south side of Bexley Road, approximately one mile west of the intersection of U.S. Highway 41 and Wisteria Loop. The western parcel of the subject site reflects its original AC zoning district, and the eastern parcel was approved for rezoning by the BCC from AC to AR1 on January 12, 1977. The parcels have a future LAN use classification of res3. The

1:43:50subject site contains a residential dwelling unit and agricultural pursuits. It is in the central market area, yet is outside the urban service, expansion, and rural areas. The Planning Commission heard this item on september thirtieth, and after discussions required regarding required improvements to the wisteria loop and the realignment thereof, the commission approved the motion to continue the item to to the November seventh meeting. On November seventh, the Planning Commission heard the item and after further discussions

1:44:21regarding the necessary improvements for the realignment of Westeria Loop, the Commission approved the motion to further continue the item to the November eighteenth Planning Commission meeting. At the November eighteenth meeting. The Planning Commission approved the conditions of approval that you see in your packet to require the applicant to improve segments of the Wisteria Loop uh Bexley Road as substandard at the project's entrance to the realignment of Wisteria Loop. to construct the Vision Road of Wisteria

1:44:52Loop and then further substandard roadway improvements to the east up to US 41 except for the areas that are already approved to be done by others.

1:45:03After the Planning Commission discussion on September 30th, staff revised condition 16 to require the MPUD, the renter MPUD, to construct the improvements previously noted. This realignment goes through the Clark M PUD that was approved earlier in this meeting.

1:45:23At the October 26th BCC meeting, the board directed staff to ensure conditions of approval for MPUD rezoning petitions require a minimum of one lot tree in the front yard, a variety of architectural features to prevent monotony, and a restriction in the number of front-loaded 40-foot-wide lots. This petition is not requesting 40-foot-wide lots. 50-foot-wide lots are being proposed. Condition number 13 addresses the placement of lot trees. Prior to this board's directive, the applicant had proposed a condition that would require four

1:45:53different architectural home designs dispersed throughout the proposed development to address the architectural monotony. Staff did subsequently revise that condition, it's currently condition number 44, to further align with the board's directive. Condition number 17 was added after the Planning Commission's discussion at the November 4th meeting to allow the project to receive mobility fee credits for the additional cost of design, permitting, and construction of the realignment portion of Bexley Road Wisteria Loop through the Clark MPUD, in the event that the Planning

1:46:23Commission andor the Board of County Commissioners required the applicant to construct the realigned portion of Bexley Road Wisteria Loop. through the Clark M PUD. This condition will be deleted if the board at this hearing does not impose this requirement.

1:46:44At the November eighteenth Planning Commission hearing, the commission did vote in favor five to one with Chairman M Uh recusing himself from the vote.

1:46:56This is a present presentation of their proposed

1:46:59master plan. Wrong project. I was planning commission. Wrong people.

1:47:04Yeah, I think that was R Roberto that is he chairman of no. That's Mr. Gray. So I think Roberto Sayaz um voted no and Gray voted, right? No?

1:47:17Gray recruised himself, didn't he? No.

1:47:20No, you are correct. They voted five to one with Roberto saying no, you're I did not yes. No, you are absolutely correct. I apologize. Thank you for correcting that. Okay. I thought you meant I was on the wrong slide. Now I've lost myself. Yeah, that's right.

1:47:33The Chairman recuse himself from a

1:47:35tangled

1:47:36upcoming project on the agenda.

1:47:38Correct.

1:47:39Correct.

1:47:40Well I've lost my presentation, so I apologize folks. Um however the proposed petition has been identified as being consistent with the land development code, the applicable provisions of the comprehensive plan, and it does come to you with a staff and planning commission recommendation of approval subject to the conditions of approval in your packet.

1:48:01Um I I need you to go over those conditions of approval. You right with that?

1:48:07Oh yeah, go over. I want to see the vision row too

1:48:09fully described. I think we need to dig into this a little more. I

1:48:11would you like the applicant to do their presentation first?

1:48:14Okay.

1:48:15Thank you.

1:48:21Thank you. Madam Chairman, Commissioner Shelley Johnson, 6400 Madison Street and I have been sworn. We have a PowerPoint. I don't know if we can because I I I'm gonna try to be quick because I know you guys have a lot on your agenda this afternoon, but Um so I will try to be brief. But um this this we are I have been sworn, I think I told you that this is um The Renner MPD and the vicinity around the Renner MPD, I think some of you have already seen this. As you can see, our MPD, the Renner MPD, is this little purple MPD here with 108

1:48:51units. The actual property is on the existing alignment of Wisteria Loop, which we've talked to with a lot of you about. You can see that existing alignment. The R MPD, which has already been approved by you, is likewise on that existing alignment. They are 130 units and they have actually been approved, and they're doing improvements to, they did improvements to the existing Wisteria Loop. Um and that was what you required them to do. We went into the Renner MPD with 108 units. We had a recommendation

1:49:22of approval going into the Planning Commission that we were going to be able to improve the existing alignment, bring it up to standard, which is what we intended to do and are still agreeing to do, obviously. I think staff and all the engineers have looked at it and I haven't heard otherwise, but it can be brought up standard. There's sufficient right-of-way there for it. And so we are proposing still to do that. That was when we went into the actual Planning Commission meeting and that's when things seemed to kind of go sideways. There was an initial question, and if we can move forward, I'm not really sure how to do that. Can

1:49:52you go to slide? One other thing I wanted to mention, because I do think it's important on the Renter MPD, we actually have a vision road on our property, a north-south one that we have um it's been requested that we build. Um and provide the right-of-way for, which we in fact have are doing as you can see, and so that's on our plan. Um so we have that in addition to our substandard road improvements on the existing posterior loop access alignment. Could you go down to the next one, do you mind? And that's just a it shows our road again. And then the next one I think will be there,

1:50:22yeah, there we go. Okay, so as you can see, when we went into Planning Commission, we had staff support that we complied with the code, bring the existing alignment up to code, and we were fine with that. We could bring it up to standard. As you can see, this is the existing alignment, and where that little star is, you'll see the existing alignment actually skirts what is a pristine class. One wetland on the Clark MPD property, the one you just um approv approved earlier. Um ultimately what We were being asked to do at the Planning

1:50:52Commission is to actually build the new alignment, the new Vision Road alignment, on the Clark property versus coming into compliance and complying with the code and building on the existing alignment, which we could do. The existing alignment costs is around $900 and some thousand dollars, which we were fine with obviously doing. Ultimately, somehow it got sideways the Planning Commission, and the next thing we know, we were being asked to build a three, almost three, two point seven, two point eight million dollar road, vision road, on this little little for

1:51:23this little 108-unit MPD on somebody else's property in order to get access. Our access on this renter property, and I know the renters are here, those the homeowners, they that the This is the access that's been used for that property since the beginning. You know, that's the access people use. There's no access south on this for the renter property. Our only access is the existing alignment, which I do think is really important. Nevertheless, the Planning Commission, we we talked about, you know, impact fee credits and

1:51:53all kinds of things in terms of you know how we could offset costs, but we were dealing with such a large cost for such a small development. It just from an equitable persp perspective, it we didn't understand why we were being singled out, but nevertheless, it wasn't something that we could make from a cost perspective work. We've ac actually looked at doing it farther, going a little bit farther south on the alignment. And you can see the the red is the actual vision road alignment. The blue is the existing. And you can see that the red goes right through that class one wetland. So outside of cot,

1:52:23we looked at like I was saying we looked at an additional route to kind of go a little bit further south. We had talked to staff about that and staff Um we we did actually look at it. So by it's still we're still looking at about $2.1 million. So we went from 2.7 to 2.1. Um if we had to build the vision road alignment. Um, but we're still, you know, we're still we still got a gap that we have have no way of making up. And again, the traffic impact fees, we we did look at that. I mean, the ones, the offers that we got from a timing perspective and from a a takedown perspective

1:52:53on the schedule of how many we could be taking down at a certain amount of time, it just doesn't work for this little development. That's the issue. It almost is like we're being punished for being small. But we're building within our existing land use. So ultimately we we went to Planning Commission, we explained all this to them. Outside of all that issue, we have this wetland. It is a class one wetland. And what we are being told and we share this with Planning Commission is that we are looking at permitting through DEP and at best case scenario we're looking at two years. I mean, this

1:53:23is 108 units. We were planning on probably, you know, going to site planning, going to plating, and then being under construction maybe in the summer, if at all possible. So to wait two or three years or to bond this road for two or three years in order to get access to our property and to be able to develop is just inequitable. It's just not how developments are treated and have been treated. Because we have access, we have an alignment, we can bring it up to standard. None of the experts have told us otherwise that we cannot. We've actually added, if you if you don't mind

1:53:53going back one more to the intersection, we actually at the Planning Commission. uh added a an intersection improvement because there was questions raised about whether or not that could you know be straightened out and so we did actually add that improvement um and no impact fee credits for that. We don't need to do that in order to bring the road up to standard. according to the experts, but we've added that as an addition to try to meet everybody halfway and get something nice out there for everybody while this, you know, so this little development can get can go forward. Subsequent to

1:54:24Planning Commission, we've now offered and we've provided the proposed condition to staff to also prepay our impact fee. Um the idea being that we'll we'll prepare impact fee so that money can go into a fund. of the counties choosing um and then ultimately if somebody comes along um and whether it be Bexley North, whether it be another development that comes online that triggers it, you know, there'll be money there so that that vision road can ultimately be built. But for us, you know, the $1.3 million improvement that we're willing to do to the

1:54:54existing alignment is what we truly believe we're legally required to do. We feel like we're trying to go above and beyond by putting in the intersection improvement, go above and beyond by prepaying the impact fees. I just don't know that there's anything else that this little development can put on the table to make this work. Um You know, maybe if there was just a cost issue, maybe that wouldn't have been a problem. But we have a class one wetland permitting issue. So and maybe if there wasn't a class one wetland permitting issue, you know, there still would be a cost issue, but if this was a bigger development, it could have

1:55:24phased it. I mean we've we've looked at all that. Um it's just a small development. It's just not something that, you know, from you know, you're trying to to sh stick the square peg in the round hole for this development, and it's not something that I think it's required to do. I don't think the code requires it. I think the code specifically permits us to improve our existing access. Um as long as we can. And so, you know, we would ask for your support. We again we're we're putting on the table the additional prepayment of impact fee. I know many of you know about that. We have provided the actual proposed condition to staff.

1:55:54Um but we would request support. I do have uh obviously our whole team is here to answer any questions, but we do request support to be able to. Build, improve, and bring to standard the existing alignment of Westeri Loop per the code. Um we had staff's micro recommendation of approval for that, and now we've added more stuff on the table. I don't necessarily know that staff doesn't still support that. proposal because it is within your code. Um and now we've you know obviously in addition to the the intersection improvement the impact fee improvements, you know, we're we're asking for

1:56:24support and just be able to move forward. Um but we're here to answer any questions.

1:56:29Um I I have a question and maybe you all have a question, but uh the north-south vision road that you have to build, what

1:56:37I what is that road? That's on your vision map. Um I think it was supposed to be a maybe a potential future connection to tower, but it right now it's a dead end street on the south because there's no access on that end.

1:56:47So can someone put up the vision road network in this area?

1:56:53I'd be interested to see that. No one's ever showed it to me.

1:57:02Yeah.

1:57:05Okay. Does anyone else have any anyway? anyway?

1:57:08I mean I have some things, but I I think I want to hear public comment first before we

1:57:12Okay. We'll take public comment and I'm looking forward to seeing the vision road.

1:57:15Maybe I could ask a couple questions that might help do maps as well. And I and I When I first looked at this I looked at it and I said this doesn't quite make sense. Why would Forcing the vision road construction on these guys to the other Property that's going above it. And then if I'm gonna spend two point seven million dollars, is that really the best use of the money. And if I was going to spend the two point seven million Would I really want to do that other improvement anyway? Um I think it's a good thing. It's tremendous that they want to put up their uh impact fee up front to go

1:57:46pay what their portion would be. And I think it's going to be incumbent on us to take a look at our CIP. Uh To go fix that road one way or the other. And I think it's a pretty good network. You've got the development right above. We approved earlier that if you took those impact fee together you could have plenty of money to go build the road But I don't know if we ni really need to go through that. where that map shows that road going right now. Maybe a little bit to the south might save us a lot of money on the impact fee or on the um

1:58:13You mean not go not hit the wetland?

1:58:16Maybe maybe we can avoid the wetland. And I think we should go study that before we actually even make a decision. But if we g we know we're going to get their impact fee up front to go make that improvement, I think in a very short period of time we can make that decision whether we want to do the other improvement or just do the one shot and Do it once and be done.

1:58:32Well Madam Chairman Mariano. I was gonna wait on that, but Do we talk about, you know, uh, And I I had a conversation with um Terry Pitos before the this meeting for the record. Um and that was a discussion he had with me about possibly paying the impact fees up front and st and things. Um you know, as a as a county that's growing as as as fast as Pasco County is, and you'll see during my presentation later this afternoon during um miscellaneous business. um some issues we're having

1:59:02with traffic in certain areas that I don't know if we'll ever be able to fix because of the amount of, for example, uh just being honest, amount of apartment complexes this one section, for example. Um

1:59:15Um but when if you know to put a burden, additional burden on the county, for example, to put it within our CAP, where there's this road or another road. And then we have to go through this whole process. When will it even be built? And that's the question. You know, I look at maybe like for an example and staff can comment on this, I'll use maybe Union Park for example. If I'm not correct, there was vision roads that went through Union Park. Well they built that. Union Park built it that road, if I'm not correct, right? Well

1:59:46it's built in the div while the development was going in. Okay. Let's forward an example. Okay. And there's other one there's other ones as well. Um to constantly put things

2:00:00that's not a job creating site is not creating jobs and of benefit for the entire county, I I have issues with. That's me personally. You know, I I have issues with us putting something in our CIP that benefits only residential. It's not a job creating site. So to me Me personally, I I mean I d okay, great, pay the impact fee up front. Now it's on the county's back. When is it gonna happen? Well we have a list of projects and we always fight

2:00:30over them during MPO in a cordial way. of whose project should rank first. Where is that even gonna sit on the list? Because we know, well now this is more important. Now this is more important. It could sit there ten or fifteen, twenty years. if it's put in the CIP. We see things that take it out of the CIP. When I came on the commission, for example, Old Pasco Road, was pulled off. We had to put it back on. Now we know how big a need that is now. But it should have been done 15 years ago, because you see what's happening now. There's

2:01:01my question. Not my question. That's that's my issue again. Okay, pay it up front. We'll put put in our C I P, but I don't know when that's gonna be done. It could be fifteen years down the route.

2:01:10So so I also gosh, I've been talking to a lot of people about this um over and over again, had some thoughts because and if you listen to the Planning Commission Um You know, a hundred and eight uh a hundred and eight houses building two vision roads, that's unusual in the county. Um but also um you know it doesn't you could wait for the vision someone else to build the vision vision road, but let me Let me try and piece together an idea that

2:01:41I had with David and Terry. Um And that is that we um well David had an idea about uh buying back. David, do you want to explain your ideas about the impact fee?

2:01:56the l um Arden Preserve number? So those are the two questions I have. And David, you go first.

2:02:04We can't hear you, David. Yeah, what's going on with these? You gotta hold it down.

2:02:07Okay, to Commissioner Moore's point. Can you hear me now? Yeah. This would still affect the CIP, but you could I think one of the applicants' concerns would be that they'd have, you know, two plus million dollars worth of credits that they couldn't use on their own site. So the concept I discussed with with Commissioner Starkey was that we give them a period of time to try to use their credits themselves or sell them privately. But if they couldn't sell them privately for after a period of time, that the county would then basically buy back any unused credits from them. But

2:02:38it to Commissioner Morse point, would that potentially affect the CIP? Yes it could, because you'd be paying them cash for their credits. So that cash would have to come from somewhere I have I have asked Mr Carbolo if he knows what road projects would be affected by that payment. Um I don't know if he's got an answer yet or not, but We have other roads in that we have Ridge Road, we have Tower Road, we have Sun Lake Boulevard. Yeah. I don't know which of those this could affect.

2:03:05And I would I would say to Commissioner Mariano's point, do we really have to move that vision road up that high and go through the wetland or can it just move up north to uh just to below the wetland without adding those costs? And Um and then I wanna know the Arden number and then um I would say I wouldn't want Uh because time is money. Uh I would want them to be able to go ahead and start development while waiting while working

2:03:35on that on the permit, whoever's going for it, to go through there. And um And so so that they don't have to wait the the two years to on their project. But Commissioner Mariano?

2:03:46So I so I just want to make sure the Vision Road being built on the Clark property, were you talking about the impact fee from there that could be used to

2:03:52it? So There are a number of projects in this area that will be paying mobility fees. They won't be getting any credits. Hardin is one. The Clark MPUD is not really building anything that's credible. Right. Um there could be other projects in this area that are

2:04:09Okay. So that was my point. So It's not a little bit more than a little bit. If if Clark doesn't come in and these guys don't come in and Arden wasn't there, You wouldn't you'd put the money in the C A P somewhere else, but to me When you've got the need that's in this area that's going right there and you've got developments that are coming right there, if you take that money and allocate it towards it, I think it's a the ultimate way to go. Rather than have it the burden of one developer or the other developer do it, if we just go take it and go look at it and we now have the money to go use it, we can go devise what we

2:04:39think is best and just go do it with the money that's coming in from other people. So the development's paying its way through its impact fee and the impact that they're having, they're fixing. And this is just kind of a complex one where you got one guy that you want him to go build the vision road before he comes in, but it's not even on their property, and we've just approved the other one above it to say, well, there's no benefit he's getting 'cause he's going to the north, but we're gonna use his property which is dedicating to us. to go build that vision road. So we've got the framework involved to make it happen. That's just mechanically making it work. When to me the fairest

2:05:09way is And I and I think these guys stepping up, paying their money up front. Well might even help us to build the whole road if we avoid the wetland.

2:05:17Yeah.

2:05:17So so the question would be and you you talk about the other development there there is a whole David can speak on this. I'd rather him speak on it. You know, they're going out causeway and the causeway is being white. So it's that's not the impact. Um but again we we have put vision roads in and lots of they're for a reason. Right.

2:05:36In as a county thinking towards the future, continue to think towards the future If we're always waiting And waiting. for quote development to come. We're gonna be behind the eight ball every time. So one of the things I heard at the Planning Commission, because I did watch the Planning Commission meeting, is like, well, why isn't this Why isn't this road going to be done before the development happens?

2:06:04But we don't we don't have the money ahead.

2:06:09Well I understand, but um but uh we're as we look towards what's going on now in certain areas of the county that can't handle that can't handle the traffic. If we start don't start g doing these roads in advance, we're never gonna catch up. You'll

2:06:24be a positive.

2:06:27Rarely. I I'm gonna say never because we did it on State Road 56, because we borrowed money from the state to do that. And it worked out

2:06:33great. And it yeah, it's a good idea.

2:06:36And I see the administrator there shaking her head. I I mean It the the the improvements follow the money. They don't go The development action. They don't go in front of the development action. You just can't, because it's impact fee and mobility fees that we use to pay for the improvement.

2:06:59And I worked on very hard to make that happen and it And we looked at some of the master planning communities we have now. Where those roads are being built. Yeah. continually with that development going in. It's not a bad thing. It's a good thing. Anyways, I don't want to keep going. I I'd rather hear f I know we have to have public comment, so

2:07:21Is this the um Vision Road map? Okay, so what is that? Is that roadway? Something in red at the bottom. Is that the piece that they have to build going through?

2:07:34And where does that connect?

2:07:37And where does that connect to? I mean it's really not a very good map actually. There we go. I I mean I I don't know the road n plan network in the network.

2:07:47She's a

2:07:47darky

2:07:47dual monitor. There you go.

2:07:51No, you went too far.

2:07:53That way.

2:07:55Commissioner Fitzpatrick.

2:07:57Is there a way to have just a southern entrance into this community and why do they need to have a north and south vision road when it's cutting through the middle of one hundred and eight homes? I find it very dangerous and it's a safety concern for kids that live within that community.

2:08:13So can I just address the North South Road real quick? So You do have to remember this project's gonna need to have an internal collector road anyway to open up the project for development. So I don't think probably the reason they're not complaining too much about the north south Vision road and it does look like it's supposed to eventually connect down the tower. I can't See the entire map there. Please keep in mind that they have to build a a collector road in their project anyway. So Yes, is it it's following the alignment of

2:08:43the Vision Network, but I don't know that it's a really an additional burden like this the east-west vision road is that's off their site. If if you look at their map of their s their proposed subdivision, they they have they need they're incorporating the Vision Road into their subdivision network anyway.

2:09:03So that Drexel Road goes right along um houses on the lake there. And that's a vision what kind of vision road is that?

2:09:16I don't know. I I'll I don't understand this road network.

2:09:18Again, so why can we not connect from the south and go up? There's no access down there. That I I think that's a vacant

2:09:27Would that be less expensive to build going south to Tower Road instead of cutting through Westeria and trying to do

2:09:34No, I think it would be actually more and I

2:09:36don't know that

2:09:36the county would have the right-way. The reason they got the right-way is because of the Clark MPD that you just approved. But again, there's no PDE study that's been done, no route study. We have looked at trying to get around that wetland. We actually looked at that route. Um, that wetland goes almost right to the right-of-way line. It's it it where the existing alignment is right now, if you go back on one of our maps, you can see how it kind of curves down. That existing axis, like I said, is the axis that they've been utilizing these properties for years. And of course they've naturally,

2:10:07you know, migrated around that wetland to not to not impact it. Um which is a huge issue. Um how many homes are down along Wisteria Loop? Um I'm not sure. I know, you know, there's some large lot homes, estate type residential homes along the lake as you come around that that that you know eastern curve. Um I know there's some large lots in there. Um and then you've got the Arden that's got 130, of course Clark that you just approved, that's got four ten, and then us,

2:10:38the little guy on the block, which our max is like eight one oh eight. Um That's

2:10:42it. Mm-hmm.

2:10:44I'd like to go to public comment. Just one quick thing. Shelley just mentioned something I think that makes a big difference. So pretty much the road that's existing right now, you're telling me it just abuts the wetland anyway.

2:10:54Yes, it skirts around the you can see that little class one with the very tail of it. It's it and that's why they've done that, I'm assuming, over the years.

2:11:01So we're gonna have to go through the wetland no matter what anyway. It's gonna be a two year project to go through the process.

2:11:05You are gonna have to go through. We looked at potentially moving it south because we were trying to figure out a way around it and it ended up still being two point one. So I

2:11:12think we've got to just go along the way that. We're gonna have to go through the wetland and it's gonna be a two-year process. Okay.

2:11:17And we're not sure if DEP is gonna even permit it because my understanding there's some issues not only with there going on, but some other issues in regards to the fact that it's gonna connect to nothing. It's basically the rows between two thorns, the three million dollar rows between two thorns that um you know they don't they don't know if DEP is gonna support it, but I mean that would all come with a route study and those kinds of things.

2:11:37All right, let me let me uh take public comment. Do we have people signed up to

2:11:41do we do. Um first person is Chris Knocko.

2:11:47Welcome again. Yeah, but

2:11:53Dans like you just showed up. Uh Chris Knocko, [address removed]. I'm here as a private citizen. And I res in a Pasco County. So uh Mr.

2:12:03Nacko, I think you also have to say that you've been sworn to the M.

2:12:05I've been sworn, yes, appreciate. Thank you. So uh thank you Chair. So a couple things. As I said, I'm here as a private resident. Um the Planning Commission, you know, after several discussions, several meetings, came up to have the vision route. And so I approve that. Uh I approve it for several reasons. And and Chair, it's funny, you you can always have things that you're ready to say, but as you speak there's things that I heard I'm like, I want to hit upon. So you said wait. Uh honestly, that's something that needs to be done. I I know you keep hearing it's a it's only 108 pro

2:12:35housing project. There are people that live in that area that that hundred and eight will affect because that's not just a hundred and eight cars. People have numerous cars. So you're talking about flow, but let me go back to this. This goes back to the Angeline project. So most of these projects that are being built that they talk about, oh, we're right off a main road. You are off a main road. Whether it's Ballantray, Oakstead, they're right on main roads and they just come right off for Wilderness Lakes, you just come right off onto the main road. This is now going onto roads that does everybody remember that Calvary Road that was shown? Calvary

2:13:06looks like a nice highway compared to Wisteria and Gardenia. What we're talking about. So, this is actually part of the Angeline project. There are only several places where the roads with the train tracks will be crossing over. This is one of them. When you see the way you came off and one of them it'll show it. Where the red goes, that was the vision road. What's often not talked about is that Blue Road, if they talk about just that we're gonna make improvements Well, those improvements mean that everybody from the Angeline, everybody from the Moffitt project is gonna be coming

2:13:36down when they there's only gonna be several places they're gonna go. They're gonna be going, they can use that now, but they're not just gonna go to 41. They're gonna try to connect down the tower road. So You for it's often oh they're going to forty one. They're not. They're cutting to Tower Road. People who live in that area know where they're going in there. That's why I said this is a micro pro it's only this one little problem, but this is a macro issue that I agree to fact that we need to look at the Angeline project. We need to see how it connects and why wait? The value of the house, the land is gonna go up. We

2:14:06all know that as things are going. If they would wait, they would make more profit. And you said time is money, time is money. Profit will be made at some point. Oh I'm hey you want to build houses? Let's build houses when the roads are in place. where people aren't infected. And I get it, oh they have to catch up. I know I gotta hurry up.

2:14:23No

2:14:23no

2:14:23people the

2:14:24people,

2:14:25the audience cannot be s making sounds. Thank you.

2:14:28But my my concern is If we don't do it right The people that live there are gonna live in misery for a lot longer time than it is or would await it if we just sent it right to the I'm

2:14:39gonna ask the the gallery once again, please don't make any sounds. Give give the applic give the speaker his respect. Thank you.

2:14:47So and I appreciate it so that that's what I just go back to. If if we're gonna do it, let's have the vision run in place. I I'm not sure if it's the developer the applicant. How we're going to do it in the long run, but if we wait, maybe there's more applicants that are bigger projects that are coming. And when they can all do it together. But for people that are to live there, for people who live in that community, it's not just about going to 41. It's about going to Tower Road. And we all know Tower Road has a big vision. I've heard before people talk about making Tower Road this massive road. We're gonna have restaurants, we're gonna have Bike bike rides. You could ride your bike

2:15:17up and down it. Don't think for once that when people come off that road, they're not gonna go to Tower Road if it's gonna be what people speak it's gonna be. So then I appreciate it. I just think the we need the vision road there. If we don't do the vision road, it's just gonna be a micro issue. It's gonna turn into a macro problem, and it's never gonna be fixed. Thank you very much. Thank you.

2:15:35The next applicant is Ray Gat.

2:15:40Welcome again as well. Public speaker. Oh, I'm sorry, not applicant.

2:15:44Public speaker.

2:15:49I am also not here in my official capacity. Um RayCAD [address removed]. Um I want to focus on the big picture as opposed to getting bogged down in all the details. Uh but before I do that, I want you to please think about something that Shelley Johnson said. She paints a picture of KB Holmes, this developer, as being like some poor little homeless puppy looking for a home. And if KB Holmes doesn't get this project, they're not gonna go bankrupt tomorrow. They're just gonna find another piece of property and go develop it.

2:16:20Um KB Homes is a solid company and uh they have uh other opportunities. So I I wouldn't put them on your worry list. Let me focus on the big picture for a minute. If you leave here and you go out to Highway 52 and you hang a right turn and go down Highway 41. As you're going down on Highway 41, you'll see a new development. I can't remember the name of that one, but it was a Lester Dairy project. When you turn into that project, there's a parkway into that project. If you keep going,

2:16:50you see Asbel Creek, you see Tierra del Sol. And they all have gigantic parkways that go into those properties. Those are on the right on the west side of the road. If you look on the left side of the road, you have Conerton, which has a gigantic parkway going it into it, which will be the uh future eastern extension of Ridge Road. Then if you go down again, there's a Publix that goes right there on the corner that goes into Conerton and they have a parkway going into Conerton there. And uh north of Tier D uh

2:17:20south of Tierra del Sol, you have Lakeshore Ranch, and it's a gated community with a parkway that goes into that. And then you get to the D.R. Horton project, was isn't there yet, but D.R. Horton made a brilliant planning decision because they're gonna bring all of their homes out on to, I believe, Roach's Run and some.

2:17:45Vastly improve that area. But as you move past D.R. Horton, then on the left you have the same thing. You have Wilderness Lakes, which is also a parkway into a big neighborhood. Now you go a little bit further south and you get into an old part of Pasco County, which was kind of part of the Bexley Ranch, Mr. Bexley's old homestead, and you have lakefront communities with Little Lake Thomas, uh, Gardenia,

2:18:15uh Big Lake Thomas, and lots of little lakes in there with these spider web roads that are going around them. And so next comes another development. Okay, and unlike the developments I described to you, KB Holmes comes in and drop jumps across these lakes. And these homes that have two acre, three acre, four acre, I have six acres. on the lake and they're gonna build this road past our neighborhood And it's

2:18:46interesting that that Shelley said when they were asked about that vision road, she said, Oh, I don't know where it was going. I I I think it was supposed to go out to Tower. Well, yeah, maybe it was supposed to go out to tower, and there was a reason that it was supposed to go out to tower, and it was because they were gonna take the traffic. And the trips generated from that neighborhood out to Tor Tower Road, which is going to be a major thoroughfare in this county, I think, someday. And so all that we're asking is we're not opposed to the

2:19:16development. But between 52 and 54 you got limited opportunities to cross those railroad tracks. And right now we have a problem in this county going east and west. So we have 54, we got 52, and Ridge Road, fingers crossed, we'll pretty soon be at 41. But then you've got an opportunity to get around across the railroad tracks at Wisteria. an opportunity to get across a tower. And then of course you have Lake Patience who that goes across, which is not a very good

2:19:46road. And then I think there's a crossing uh down by the new substation that went in at Lando Lakes. My issue from a big picture standpoint is all three of those roads will be crowded as heck if you had five minutes. If you don't take those intermediate roads into consideration, Mr. Oakley? Okay. Yes. So he shafted you before he handed you the gap. And so if you if you Have

2:20:17a focus on those intermediate roads that cross those railroad tracks, then you're going to create opportunities for people to travel on those roads and potentially take some of the road off, some of the traffic off 52, 54, and Ridge Road by making those good, solid, thoroughfare roads that people can travel. And so I am encouraging you to consider somehow getting this vision

2:20:47road built over to 41. And even then, it's not a godsend because I want to remember, I want you to remember that it's not just Angeline, it's South Bexley, it's North Bexley, it is everything west of the railroad tracks that's going to come over to 41. And on Westeria You're gonna have a right turn only on to forty one and then you're gonna jam up Tower Road. Thank you.

2:21:11Thank you. Is there anyone else that wanted to speak?

2:21:14Yes, uh we have another person uh signed up, Jeremy Kelch.

2:21:19Is there anyone after Jeremy?

2:21:22Uh I see a hand back. Come on up, sit up closer and then you can go after good afternoon.

2:21:27Commissioner, thank you. I have five minutes also and I have Jeremy Couch, [address removed].

2:21:36You're not getting my Christmas

2:21:37hand.

2:21:43He didn't even

2:21:43tell me about

2:21:44that. This is a really cool little area of Land O' Lakes. Um I moved my business to this area. I've made my homestead. uh on this area. I've invested a lot of money on this street. Um This board would like to see more high end housing in this area. This is a street where you have that. Um I I understand the complex decision that the board has to make. Um but if you look at your vision road, it's the right vision. System.

2:22:16Drexel, which is a main road, will come north through the renter property and hit But Bexley Road, which will be the vision road that goes east. and hits forty one. You also have South Westeria, which nobody's talked about. That's the way I go to work. um and go go to and from my property, um, which is also supposed to be a vision road. You have Lake Patience, which is a vision road. All of these roads will take the burden off of fifty-four and fifty-two.

2:22:49If I I understand that it's a tough decision. But this builder is speculating. They have taken and they've went right in the middle of a little country road and they want to build a home. They're homes. their compatibility argument is well we're RISC III. We we have to cross my five eight my three acres. Um Mr. Knocos in the area, Mr. Gads six acres. The house on the corner is sixteen acres. The house right next door is five acres. You're crossing

2:23:19all of these to get to 5,000 square foot lots. You're not on a collector. So the way you have to do it is make yourself on a collector, which is build the vision road. And I know that's a big expense. But that's part of being a developer is you spend the money. I'm in support. If they build the road. If they do a substandard improvement, there's not gonna be any sidewalk, there's not gonna be any trail, It's just gonna be a little widening down our street. and then we'll have some recession and then some future kick start Bexley

2:23:50will come in and say, Well We're gonna get it started again, but we just need to use Wisteria and the Vision Road never gets built. And then you have these high end homes on the lake and we have to deal with it. You know what we're gonna do? We're gonna move to Keisto. Well they're gonna protect us. And so I I'm in support of the project and I know it's a hard decision. They just need to build the vision road and be done with it. you.

2:24:13Thank you. Is there anyone else that wanted to speak to this? Oh yeah, one more. If If there's anyone else, please stand up behind this because I'm going to close public comment after him if no one stands up. Thank you.

2:24:24Uh Darrell Renner, [address removed]. Uh I have been sworn. Um and I happen to be the landowner. Um You know, I won't disagree with Mr. Gad's Oratory skills. He's very good at that. But every project that he described. with these major roadways into 'em are huge, huge, huge projects. You know, uh Chris described the macro and the micro issues of this project. But this

2:24:54doesn't really even come to a micro issue. It's almost like a mini micro, just like your iPhones that have gotten so small to plug in. And I understand the need for the Vision Roads, which is one of the reasons that prompted me to even sell my property. The main vision road coming out of Bexley. um is a g is a major road that's gonna take a huge chunk of my property as they widen that and put it through there. the north south vision road that you saw on the map there. bisex my property right down the middle of that piece of property.

2:25:26When I first saw this w and entered into the the relationship with K B, there was another road that came off of that north south road and dissected behind directly behind my home and went out into the Bexley Ranch. And and so I said, Well you know what, this isn't why I moved here. I respect the fact that people want pieces of property and I wanted a piece of property and I wanted to be able to you know, do some of the things with a larger piece of property that if all these vision roads come through, I won't be able to do now. I mean my

2:25:56property will be d dissected and I won't have what I originally bought. So my encouragement to you is is to And again, as they've said, it's a tough job. But the planners originally planned that road to come out and and improve that road to come out onto Wisteria and somehow we've gotten sidetracked into a ton of different options as to how we can make that work. So um again I know you have a hard decision, but again the

2:26:26reason for my decision is is because my fifty acres that I bought over twenty years ago is not gonna be in the future for me what I had intended it to be. So thank you.

2:26:38Thank you.

2:26:42Okay, so it's it's back to us. Um

2:26:46Rebutt.

2:26:47A rebuttal from the applicant. You want to say anything?

2:26:53Yes, and listening to the comments, I just I want to reiterate, because I do think it's so important, that the existing alignment, we can bring it up to standard, which is what your code requires us to do. And that is what staff has said we can do. That was their original recommendation, that's what we said we can do, that's what all the other developments do. Um, you know, this movement of this vision road north to another. property is an is an offsite road improvement project for this particular development. We're not loading anything on that load. The

2:27:23substand on that road, the the substandard road specifically says if you read your code, it specifically says it's to address. Subst to address impacts on substandard roads. as a result of new development. The substandard road involved is the existing alignment. This 108 units is going to bring that up to standard, which we are required to do. And we're gonna even do beyond that. We're gonna do the intersection improvement and we're also gonna put the the impact fee out there, prepay, so that when another development, not the county even comes along, Bexley,

2:27:53there's gonna be amendments there's gonna be development pressure coming, there's gonna be other developments that are gonna trigger it. And there's gonna be money there for it. So a route study and stuff can be done because it's gonna be a big problem where it where it's been moved to. And I don't know if that was something that was considered when it was moved, but Um We can bring it up to standard. That's what the code requires us to do. We are trying our hardest to meet everybody halfway, which is why we said we'll do the intersection improvement and and that's additional. Not take impact fee credits and then on top of that the prepayment of the fees. But

2:28:23for I understand they're saying this isn't the little guy, the developments that were described to you. Mm. you know, by Mr. Gadd, um our large developments. This is not a large development and it doesn't exist in a vacuum. I mean it is what it is. It's a small development and it's being it is being punished for it. It's being singled out and treated differently. There's I don't know how else you can what other way you can call it on this one. Right. Um Terry, did you get the

2:28:47number from the Arden M P U D

2:28:51We're working on it. Uh I'm almost there with the fiscal team.

2:28:56Okay. Um so they had to improve wisteria from their western corner there to forty one, is that correct?

2:29:07Yes.

2:29:09Right. Did it get a trail or anything like that on it?

2:29:14To m to my understanding there's not a chill, there's a sidewalk on it.

2:29:18Okay. Um

2:29:21Oh man, this is toughy. Madam Chairman M Yeah Well okay, let me let me say something.

2:29:35Um as the sh share f as Mr. Nacko uh said, it it is the it is one of the entrances to Angeline, which is a really important development that's coming, Besley and and to Angeline to the county. Lots of jobs and um And I I'm in a I am a believer of a road network and

2:30:00I've been looking here on the map and looking at that north-south road going through Renner. I and there's a some property that s surrounds Renner on the south and the west. It's owned by L S B Corporation, whoever that is, but I assume that that vision road will uh go through that property and be straightened out a little bit? It's unwinding around. Yeah.

2:30:24Can I make a quick clarification regarding um the Vision Road Network itself? If if we could bring up the vision roadmap just to Just to be sure about the geographies that we're talking about here. The if we zoom out just a little bit, um A little bit more. That should be a good see if I can use the pointer here. So

2:30:51Click hold and rank.

2:30:53Oh to the right. Okay, Okay, so Where are we at here? This is the general location of where we're talking about today. When we when we hear the the project name Angeline, that project is all the way Further north.

2:31:10It's north of Ridge Road?

2:31:11Here.

2:31:12No.

2:31:12Yes. The Angela Project is north of Ridge

2:31:14Road. Okay. The Moffitt is The Moffitt project is south of Ridge Road.

2:31:21Oh I thought it was south of

2:31:23Actually is the res the residential area that's gonna be more than

2:31:27And then they'll also have Sun Lake.

2:31:29There we are. I just missed it.

2:31:30Then also Sun Lake will connect from north to south, correct?

2:31:34This red line that you see here, this is the Sun Lake from the

2:31:39Okay, so that's an important northwest, north-south road. Right. And so then our east-west roads.

2:31:45And here's the here's the subject area that we're talking about. And this line here that's coming down is the Bexley Mysteria Loop collector road network that that's been discussed. So really the there's a the Bexley North area.

2:32:01Okay.

2:32:01There you might have some project Or some traffic that will go to forty one, but I believe most of the Bexley North traffic has been already captured and being sent southward.

2:32:10Yeah.

2:32:11So just to clarify on the geographies on how that traffic that is on the west side of the train tracks will be affecting and traveling toward US forty one.

2:32:22Madam Chair, since Terry's here. Yeah, go ahead. Terry, look so sh show ever let's go to the vision road in question.

2:32:32With your little pointer?

2:32:33Yeah. Get on get in there pretty good. Nice and tight.

2:32:37Uh go put it north and east. So it's not north and out there.

2:32:43A little bit more parallel to the trays between it and you're keeping that access route.

2:32:50Well like though your pointer on it. Like surround the area.

2:32:54Oh yeah.

2:32:57Oh where's he talking about right here? Okay, there it is. Yeah. What's that?

2:33:02So what you and I spoke about earlier and what you you mentioned as well, Madonna is that your proposal or their proposal, I don't know whose proposal was. Okay. The the uh the the uh applicant's proposal was to pay once again their um impact fee Up front.

2:33:22Yes, that's what the applicant was proposing.

2:33:24Right. And w what's that amount guesstimated?

2:33:29About a million nine hundred dollars.

2:33:36Uh I think some of the projections that I saw were just about three million or a little bit more than three million.

2:33:41Okay. So three million. So again I'll just go back to the statement I made earlier, again We c Great. We collect money up front. But where's the other two million going to come from? Again, we put something in the C I P We're gonna have to collect for it. Where's the rest of the funding gonna come from? So that's why it's in it'll set and we know it'll sit.

2:34:06Yeah.

2:34:09Has anything come in on this L S I won't say L S D L S B corporation yet? Have we seen any activity on the parcel to the left? And would they have responsibility to help? Put in that vision road.

2:34:24Yeah.

2:34:26We haven't seen anything on the

2:34:28I'm sorry you can't I'd like to know what you're saying, but you can't do that.

2:34:31So we haven't quite seen anything on the neighboring properties.

2:34:35No, I I wanted to go back to Commissioner Moore's statement. I mean, you know, the current priorities in that central area are are Ridge Road extension, Moffat work, and some of the Sun Lake stuff. I mean we wouldn't be able to even entertain the additional two to three million until post-2025 to even look at it. Right.

2:34:51Right.

2:34:52So there lies a concern like it does in other developments and We don't know when the road's gonna be done.

2:35:01No somebody if I you know I I know that you don't want to build it, but

2:35:06So how much how much uh was left in the Arden development?

2:35:13The the th our fiscal team is looking at that right now. Um it's a pretty big file that they're trying to dig into right now. So uh it's taking a little bit of time for them to bring up all the data and information.

2:35:23So what I'm looking for is Arden um you know develop generated so much in um impact fees and then they paid for their portion of the road. um improvement. So I'm looking for the Delta that was done on that road.

2:35:40And seeing if it can be added to the cost of this road.

2:35:44Just keep in mind that Through construction of Ridge Road Phase Two, all mobility fees in the central zone effectively are going to Ridge Road Phase Two. That's how we're paying for Ridge Road Phase Two.

2:35:56And so um if we get the fifteen million? What from the legislature? Fourteen. Fourteen.

2:36:04Mm. That that would help, but we won't know about that for several months.

2:36:07Uh-huh. Well, till June or July, right? June? I don't know when his signs the budget. We gotta wait till he signs the budget.

2:36:16Correct.

2:36:17Commissioner Starkey. Commissioner Fitzpatrick. Thank you. Okay, so while I'm sitting here looking along with stereo loop and where the I don't remember the name of the neighborhood. Aden Aiden? up north.

2:36:29Arden

2:36:29Arden Arden. What if if you're going down with Serial Loop and you go al and have uh the road split where Wisteria is and go along the wetlands, around the wetlands, and then connect Wisteria Loop to the other side. And then you can put trees in between that and Wisteria Loop and keep the property's separate and the higher end homes can still have their privacy.

2:36:55And it won't affect all the traffic won't affect them.

2:36:59and they're still on the same person's property, you're just moving instead of going over wetlands, you're going around, but then you're putting trees in between the keep the separation and division.

2:37:12And I don't know how to show it to everybody, so if you want to pull up the map, I just I'm on Pasco PA.

2:37:21Or can you pull up with Syria?

2:37:24Well the vision road is on there with the wetland Right.

2:37:30Okay, so right here. Is there a pointer or something I can

2:37:43So yes, if you just split right at that north end around and follow the wetlands all the way around and then connect at the south end and then you can put trees right on the north. Like in that sort of thing. East, right through there. And then still they still have their privacy. And you don't have to go over the wetlands, you're still going around, but it's still giving that buffer.

2:38:07Yeah.

2:38:15Then everyone will be happy.

2:38:19I would I mean I I don't know if I am prepared to talk about the alignment of a vision road at this stage um to say whether that is an appropriate alignment or not.

2:38:27If it's gonna cost two point one million and then you have to go through and have wetland mitigations instead of just going right around along the edge of the wetlands.

2:38:40You can even throw a

2:38:41wall

2:38:41in there if you want, I guess. Yes.

2:38:42I agree. Let's move the whole road north onto that property.

2:38:48Not bad ideas, right?

2:38:50Thank you.

2:38:50We're not going to obviously be able to figure that out right now between the staff and developers. So I'll make a motion to continue and bring this back and after you look at that.

2:39:01Yes. The condition does not set an alignment, to be clear. What it says is that they'd have to build the vision road. Through the Clark MPUD and all of the land you're talking about appears to be within the Clark MPUD. So

2:39:13correct.

2:39:14The alignment, as Mr. Pito said, would be established later. So if they there's a way to build it The way Commissioner Fitzpatrick stated That's still allowed by the existing condition.

2:39:25The question is who who has to pay for the whole thing? And so that's why I'm trying to find a little help from So the Arden. And

2:39:35Well Arden's not gonna pay they're already.

2:39:37No, no, they I'm just saying just take the leftover that's

2:39:40from there and say to that, Commissioner Starkey, just keep in mind that when Arden paid their mobility fees, it probably went into the general pot for this zone. Which goes to roads like Ridge Road, Sunlight Boulevard, Moffitt Spine Road.

2:39:52How much are we talking?

2:39:55I don't know. I'm just letting you know that any time you take money out of the CIP it affects

2:40:00I know that.

2:40:00And I know you push for Tower Road to get built, and that's potentially another road that's affected by

2:40:05I just I just don't see how you put a three million dollar road on a hundred and eight unit development. Can we have the

2:40:12applicant come back up? Please.

2:40:19I know you were mentioning cost constraints and Budget. Now if we're not going directly over wetlands, you won't have to do wetland mitigation. So would it be more effici cost efficient and do you know about an estimate of how much the cost would be to go around?

2:40:35We do. Um because we did look at that um to move it south. The cost estimate we were looking at was about two point one million. the existing alignment to improve it, improve the intersection is 1.3 million. So we're s we still have a gap, because we're still at 2.1 million. Um and cost.

2:40:55Compared to one point two.

2:40:57Um compared to 1.3, right, which is what we actually can bring the existing alignment up to standard in accordance with county codes and traffic regs. As well as that intersection improvement. That full improvement is one point three.

2:41:10So eight hundred

2:41:10thousand.

2:41:11That difference is creditable though. So the difference between the one point three and the two point one would be credible, so they should be able to absorb you know, seven hundred thousand dollars worth of credits within their own project.

2:41:25Yes. And we we have said that if for some reason you don't sell them back within five years, we'll buy those credits. I mean that's something we could.

2:41:34It's only a seven hundred thousand dollar gap. They can use all that in their own project. The the applicant said they can they have about nine hundred thousand dollars worth of fees.

2:41:42Do you guys want to get this done today?

2:41:44Well

2:41:44I'm

2:41:44not sure.

2:41:45I call Mike or or Mike wanna uh my understanding is, and I could be wrong, um, is that and I cause I think that's a you know an idea. that we can't get around that wetland on that south end. My understanding is that thing goes all the way to the right-of-way and we're gonna be impacting it no matter what.

2:42:01So then it's not a good thing.

2:42:02Unless we go with the existing alignment which f goes completely south of it, in my own.

2:42:08Exactly.

2:42:12Um it's not gonna happen today. I have I'll make one or I'll make two motions. You guys choose. I'll make a motion to deny. Right now, or I can make a motion to continue if you guys want to try to work through this.

2:42:24I w I want to I would like to continue it. Motion

2:42:27to continue.

2:42:28Second.

2:42:31I'll make a motion to continue to see if you can Somehow figure this vision road out.

2:42:36Yeah. And I'll second that.

2:42:38So are you continuing it to a date certain or

2:42:40we'll leave it up to the staff and applicant to see when they think they can bring this back.

2:42:45Okay.

2:42:48You think you can bring it back for the January twenty fifth meeting?

2:42:51Yeah, I think we definitely can.

2:42:53Okay. All

2:42:54right.

2:42:54All in favor?

2:42:55Aye. Aye. Okay. That was a punt. Yeah.

2:43:01It was we

2:43:02weren't gonna get that done here today.

2:43:07All right. No more punning.

2:43:11It's hard to

2:43:12take care

2:43:12of. Okay. What are are we on? Fund with the right-of-way. Okay, now another fun one. 125, right? Yes. Okay.

2:43:22At some

2:43:22point you're probably gonna

2:43:23do

2:43:24it.