Zoning Amendment (Regular) – Hale-Collier MPUD Master Planned Unit Development – Julia Herndon/Walter and Elizabeth Franzel/The Franzel Family Revocable Trust - A Rezoning Request from A-R Agricultural-Residential and
What the county recorded
No disposition in the minutes
The approved minutes do not say what became of this item. That is a gap in the record, not a decision. It is the normal state for 24% of items. Most of those are regular business and board reports that the minutes do not dispose of in writing. This archive never infers an outcome from the fact that someone called a vote.
The source document
The county’s agenda for Planning Commission, Sep 22, 2022
The published PDF, as served by the county. This item is one entry in it.
The county’s minutes for Planning Commission, Sep 22, 2022
The published PDF, as served by the county. This item is one entry in it.
What was said
Machine transcription of 4h 44m of recording, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 64% of 1,163 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.
Mm-hmm. Yeah, I call the meeting uh back to order. So we're on to P ten.
Hello again, Tammy Snyder, Planning and Development.
A couple housekeeping things to note. I did receive several ex partees on this one as well. They have been forwarded to the clerk's office. And um I was notified just a little while ago that the um there is a condition of approval missing actually. It was in the initial drafts and somehow it fell off of the final draft. Um so I'd like to read that into record. Um and it regards motorized boats on the adjacent lake. The developer will prohibit any type of motorized
boats on the lake. The developer will have a dock structure that will be located at the current dock location and will mirror the design of the Rose but continuum dock. The developer will not develop a new lake access.
And here we have the Hale Collier M PUD, PDD 227574. Here's a location map that is Collier Parkway running north and south on the east side and that is Hill Road that cuts through this um proposed project. And here's a bigger location map so you can kind of see where everything else is. We've got US 41 on the west boundary over there.
Can she talk louder please? Thank you.
Proposed as a rezoning request from AR, Agricultural Residential, and R1 Rural Density Residential Zoning Districts, to an MPUD to allow for a maximum of 109 single-family detached dwelling units and associated infrastructure on approximately 46.1 acres. And here's a master plan.
North is to the right. Presently the subject parcels are used for residential and agricultural pursuits. Based on the analysis provided, there will be a substandard roadway mitigation fair share payment required of this project. The applicant shall design and construct a site access left turn lane within the subject segment and this improvement will serve to physically mitigate the current deficiencies, which will negate the need for the fair share payment mitigation. That's an old
Finding a fact. The proposed request is consistent with the Pasco County L D C Chapter 400 Subsection 402.2 zoning amendment, MPD master plan unit development, and with the applicable provisions of the Pasco County Comprehensive Plan. And with that, the PD recommends approval with conditions.
Okay. Um any questions for Tammy from up here?
One quick for clarification, I wasn't understanding about the substandard road condition. The report said that the substandard condition was a problem with shoulders. But that the mitigation is a left turn lane. I'm trying to figure out how the left turn lane mitigates shoulders.
I will I will let the applicant's representative speak to that.
And Tammy, just for clarification, um in the conditions of approval number forty three, under the conditions of approval references a hundred and twenty seven lots. I think it's a hundred and nine, is it not?
It it is a hundred and nine. Yeah. So it could be a typo.
Yeah, one other two, since I guess we're getting technical. In thirty f condition thirty five A ten, the max lot coverage is seventy five percent, but on the MPUD site plan it says sixty-five percent.
That would be another type of um I believe.
I believe seventy-five is kind of the standard.
Yeah, I think just an easy one. Making sure that the conditions of approval and the master plan line up 'cause I don't know what happens. I mean I don't know what governs if they don't.
They should be lining up.
That should be. I'll I'll look into that.
And then I have one other question and it has actually I don't think it's going to affect this case, but I'm curious. And that is If more than 50% of the lots are built as 40-foot-wide lots, or actually I'm sorry, if 100% of the lots are built as forty foot wide lots. And they have alley access. They get a break on mobility fees. But they don't have to meet the rest of the T N D design standards.
That is a new standard condition and Why?
Yes.
So so that Nictoria Spito's planning development, that is a standard condition that was adopted or directed rather by the Board of County Commissioners as an incentive to influence uh the development of single family residential lots that are Forty feet width and less. Uh so that if a development is to do that, um is to have over fifty percent, let's say, of their single family residential lots developed at forty at a forty foot width dimension. uh
that they would have to rearload all of those lots and create alley access for those lots and as an incentive to offset some of the additional costs associated with alley construction. The Board of County Commissioners agreed and directed. The Planning and Development Department to include in the conditions of approval the application of the TND mobility fee incentive. Okay.
Not sure that's wise, but okay.
And I I guess Terry and maybe this is a question for Shelley or There there's that whole thing. condition thirty six, thirty seven of the conditions of approval and then there's a general note ten on the bottom of the master plan that On the master plan it says the number of forty foot lots shall not exceed fifty percent of the total development. Period. Done. It and then there's other conditions that talk about if they go more or that what else they can do. So I I don't know how you Yeah, i is that consistent? Is
that some other kind of allowance that's l given to them or
Well if they're if they're uh placing a restriction that they're not gonna go beyond the fifty percent. Then the then the provision is Um
Well the provision would somewhat be innocuous. However if there was a change later on in in the uh in the development proposal where they needed to go beyond that fifty percent then the provision becomes activated. Okay. And so it's s similar to the land development code where The the land development code is in place, even though you may uh deviate from it from time to time with a condition or what have you, but it's still there, ready to go. Okay. This is a condition that exists only within
the MPUDs, not in the land development code. If something were to change later on in the MPUD, we would still want that provision to stay in place. It's not something that we would negotiate away.
All right. Very good. Okay.
Um the applicant. I I guess at this point if there's no other questions from sta from here for staff, we'll hear from the applicant. I think you've asked for and been granted fifteen minutes.
Thank you, Chairman Member Shelley Johnson, [address removed], and I have been sworn. I do have my team here today. We have a PowerPoint presentation, so I just wanted to do a brief introduction of who we have here to answer any questions or concerns of the commission as well as the residents that we know are here. We've that we've been working with, you know, um at least the Rosebud continuum over the last couple of uh of months. Um we have Mike Dadey here. He is with KB Homes. He is the vice president of land acquisitions for KB Homes. We also have here Jay
or Robert Fudge, he's here with Florida Land Design and Permitting, and he is our civil engineer on this particular development. We have Mike Razer who is with Razor Transportation Consulting, as you all know, and he is our traffic engineer, and he is here to testify as well today. And then, of course, we have our planner, Cindy Terrapeney, with Terrapane Planning Strategies, and she actually is going to do our PowerPoint. Presentation today, so without further delay, I will let her take the floor. And we are again here to answer any questions and we appreciate your time.
Thank you.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman and Members of the Planning Commission. I'm Cindy Terrapani, Terrapani Planning Strategies, 128 East Tarpon Avenue in Tarpon Springs, and now I'm the planner on this project. Um I do have my resume. Many of you know me, I've appeared before Pasco County before and previously been qualified as an expert in urban and regional planning, but I just wanted to present these resumes to you and one for the clerk.
Motion to accept. Second.
Uh motion to receive and file. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion carries.
I'll be very brief. I've been qualified before as an expert in Pasco County, also in circuit courts of Hillsborough, Pasco, Hernando, and Pinellas Counties. I've been an urban planner for over 41 years in Pasco County since 2005 for over 17 years. Have a master's in urban and regional planning from Florida State and an urban uh excuse me a political science degree from Clemson University. So I'm clearly qualified as an expert and I thank you for your appreciation of that.
Shelley's already mentioned our team that is here today are the different uh disciplines that are here and they're happy to answer any questions at the end. Mr. Razor will speak after me, but of course any member of our team is available for your comments or questions. KB Home is the applicant and the proposed builder. As a national builder building for over 50 years in Southwest Florida, they have the financial and administrative capability to do this project. They have three residential projects under construction in Pasco today. Legends Point, which is north of State Road 52, on the west side of Hayes,
River Run on US 301, Life Church Sanctuary Ridge on Old Pasco Road and two projects in design, the Riverstone or Renner Project that you were just speaking about, and phase three of Legends Point. KB Home has been recognized as the number one ranked home home builder for customer satisfaction.
This is the site. As you can see, it's in lo located in central urbanized Pasco County. It's north of State Road 54, on the west side of Collier Parkway, and on both sides of Hale Road. The total site is 46 acres, 32 acres are uplands, 14 acres are wet.
Just want to show you some historic photos to demonstrate this site has been long been used for agricultural purposes, primarily agricultural cattle grazing and other animal grazing. But again, some citrus grove on the east side, which, as we all know, has fallen prey to whatever has happened to all of our citrus groves over the last 10 years.
Now the site is highlighted here in red, and what I wanted to uh focus on and emphasize here is this site is completely surrounded by single-family residential development. Now, residential development has moved up from State Road 52, it's moved east from 41, and it's really developed that entire area of the Land O' Lakes area. In fact, our site is the hole in the middle of the donut. the one of the last undeveloped parcels in that donut.
Again, this is another, this is an example of the Res VI plan category that exists on the site as well as everything you see there in green from 41 all the way over to the the Cypress Preserve Well Field is also Res VI. Of course, Res VIX allows a development at six units per acre.
Now, our opponents are going to speak to you later and they're going to ask you to set aside the comp plan and just focus on the zoning. And they're going to ask you to focus on a very narrow area of the zoning map just right adjacent to the site. And I would ask you that that's really the wrong interpretation. The comp plan is this county's vision, their long-term vision for the future. And so that is what you are to be relying on. That is what developers rely on when they look for sites and projects. The Comp plan and the zoning code envisioned that many different zoning districts and different developments can exist compatibly within
the same plan category.
Just another map of the uh showing you on the aerial. Again, the subject site is in red. Everything you see in that tan color that's developed as single-family homes is also Res 6. There is a site, so the Res 3 begins to the east, and the public semi-public is the county's wastewater treatment facility. And also a school is located in that area.
The north side of the site contains 26 homes, neighborhood parks, and the community boat dock that currently exists on Lake Placy. The larger south side contains 83 homes and the neighborhood parks.
Again, this is just the site the concept plan to demonstrate the larger south side has more of the homes, whereas the north side has fewer homes, but of course is primarily occupied by Lake Placey. We made a concerted effort to be good neighbors, first by holding an advertised neighborhood meeting on February 17, 2022, second by listening to their concerns, and third by making changes to the proposed development in response to their concerns. And in response to their concerns Uh to the concerns
of neighbor along the west boundary on the north part of the site, which is on the on the slide today. Um there previously were 18 lots along that western boundary. We've reduced that down to 12 lots. We've also committed that all these lots would be 50-foot lots, and we've also committed to a 20-foot buffer along that west boundary on our property where no buffer is required since we are developing single family next to single family.
On the south side, based on the comments we heard from Sable Ridge homeowners, in addition, our thoughts on the process and the project, the pink that you see that kind of sideways L-shaped our southern boundary is adjacent to Sable Ridge. We have committed to 50 foot lots along this entire boundary as well. We've also committed to a 10-foot buffer along that entire boundary as well. Also should be noted that we are not overpowering the Sable Ridge development even though our lots are slightly smaller than Sable Ridge. There's only three lots more in the Hale
area along that boundary than the Sable Ridge development. In other words, there's we have three more lots in that little S shape than Sable Ridge does.
We made a variety of environmental commitments to the project. We are mindful of that existing Lake Placy within the northern site. First of all, we will not allow any motor motorized boats on the lake. And this is the uh comment, uh the condition that Ms. Snyder talked to you about, and I do have copies of it if you'd like to have that, um, a copy of that. But we are for some reason that one was dropped off was not our intention. We always wanted that to be included. Secondly, we will repair and replace the existing dock, but not increase its size or change its location. And again, that's in the condition
that Tammy, Ms. Snyder read to you. Third, we do not propose any environmental impacts to the shoreline of Lake Placey. I want to emphasize that we've had many conversations and emails between KB Home and the property owner on the east side of Lake Placy. KB Home Principals also visited the site at the invitation of that property owner. We believe we made every reasonable effort to be a good neighbor with the owner who shares the use of Lake Placy. I'd also point out let me go back if I could. Um if
you look in the very
This area right here, that's the only place that we are adjacent to the adjacent homeowner, the um 20-acre property that we'll talk they'll talk to you later. And you can see what we have in that area adjacent to their property is a neighborhood park and retention area. So there's no development in the area where we are adjacent to them.
I'd like to be very clear about our transportation commitments. We are proposing, and the county has agreed, that it is appropriate for us to donate $281,605 to mitigate our impact on substandard hail road, and that's in condition, I believe it's condition 11 of your COAs that was passed out today. Secondly, we are building a turn lane for the project that will go from Uh call your parkway to the project entrance on Hale Road. That turn lane will be designed, permitted, and constructed entirely at the expense of the applicant. This is condition number
fourteen.
I'd like to talk a little bit about compatibility. Um compatibility is that two uses can coexist together without negatively impacting one another. That's the state definition of that. It's hard to imagine how single family development can impact other single-family development because they are the same use. But we have gone above and beyond that. We have proposed buffers where they're not required. We have increased lot sizes along the southern edge and the western edge where we are adjacent. We have no uses proposed adjacent, no residential use proposed adjacent
to our neighbor to the east. It's hard to imagine a more compatible project of single family detached homes well buffered from Hale Road. next to and in the surrounding area of other single family neighborhoods.
Just want to briefly show you, um starting at the top, that's the application we have before you today, which is 109 lots. This project was initially envisioned as 150 single-family lots. It has been reduced over time to today's application of 109. The comp plan, the comprehensive plan of res 6 would allow 213 lots. So you can clearly see we're at less than half of the comp plan category.
Actually, this is a really pretty straightforward application. Um it's not very complicated. The site's plan category, site's res six plan category is in a suburban area of the county. We do not request a plan amendment for the application. The proposed development is less than half of the de allowable density in the Res VI plan category. The area bounded by State Road 54 and 41 and Collier Parkway, if you imagine that kind of that triangle, has developed as a suburban community in Pasco, resulting in the almost built-out residential neighborhood that exist
today, with this lot, this property being one of the few very few exceptions. We understand the neighbors are used to driving by a vacant property and reluctant to embrace change. We are asking that the MPD's property owner and contract purchaser be given the same right-same property rights to develop the site in a reasonable, compatible manner. just as the existing homeowners had the right to develop the property as they saw fit. We also understand the neighbors are concerned about existing hail road problems, an existing situation we did not create.
However, in recognition of this issue, as I mentioned earlier, we are contributing $281,000 to the county towards road improvements, and this is memorialized in your conditions of approval. We fully comply with the county's new rules with regard to lot size. We comply with architectural diversity on trees on every lot. We do not request any alternate standards at all. And we are fully compliant with the Land Development Code. We respectfully request your approval of this MPD as presented. I'd like to turn it over now
to Mike Razor unless you have questions for me. Mr. Razor would like to comment on the traffic issues.
So I do have one question. So Cindy, the s can you go back to the master plan that you Showed us
Yeah. So
that's the north half only, or do you want the whole
master
plan?
I guess the whole thing because that's what my question relates to. So Well we have on in our agenda is not that. So The MPD plan that is
In the agenda
doesn't have the same level of detail that you're showing in this plan. So I guess what I'm asking is
Is this is what you're showing the binding MPUD plan or is it What's in our agenda?
The MPD plan does show the same issues that I just mentioned. I'll go over them just to be very clear that is shown on the concept plan. The concept plan just illustrates it a little better than the MPD plan. But to refer to the MPD plan, which will be the binding plan. uh subject to approval. There are orange areas as you can see in the MPD plan that are 50-foot lots and they are the same pink areas that you see on this concept plan. So those are in the master plan, they're required to be 50-foot lots. the buffers along the edges, um both along Both
along the west side here and along the entire boundary next to Sable Ridge are also shown in the MPD plan. Our 15-foot buffer along Hale Road, again, also shown on the MPD plan. And I forgot to mention the other transportation improvement we were making is a 15-foot right-of-way dedication along the entire frontage of Hale Road. And that is also shown on the MPD plan. So those document all of those provisions that we talked about are sh are indeed shown on the conference, excuse me, on the
Okay, but I just want to be clear. for Planning Commission's benefit and the public's benefit, that this plan you're showing is not binding.
The concept plan is not binding. I I guess I should have had the master plan in there too. I doesn't maybe Tammy has it in there we can put it up. But the master plan has those same provisions that I just spoke of. They are in there with the same provisions of where the 50-foot lots are required to be and where the buffers are required to be and the right-of-way dedications.
And is the max lot coverage 65 percent or 75 percent?
It should be 75 percent, so there's an error on the master plan. We'll we'll correct that before we get to the um to the board. And maybe I don't know if I'm not sure if Ms. Snyder had the master plan in her um presentation or not, but we could certainly go back to that.
Thank you. Anything else? Thank you. I'll turn it over to Mr. Razor.
Uh good afternoon. Uh Michael Razor with Razor Transportation Consulting, uh 19046, Bruce B. Downs Boulevard, number 308, Tampa, 33647. I'm a registered professional engineer with over 25 years of experience in the field of traffic engineering, and I have been sworn at the conclusion of my presentation. I'll enter my CV into the record. And I do have a fairly uh detailed amount of information to go through, so I understand we're short on time, so I will stop when the buzzer goes. Um so I performed the traffic study for the substandard
road review for this project, and the the traffic study and substandard road review. Two versions of the traffic study were prepared. Uh, formerly referred to as a time-in-in-phase analysis, with the requirements for this study pursuant to Pasco County Land Development Code. code section nine oh one point one two. The first version of the time and in phasing analysis was documented in our report dated June 11, 2021, and evaluated 127 single-family detached residential units with three site access connections to Hale Road. The second and final version of the time-in-in phasing analysis was documented in
our report dated April 13th, 2022, and evaluated 109 single-family detached residential units, also with three site access connections to Hale Road. Other than the revision to the unit count, the second version of the analysis was revised to A update the trip generation chip generation estimate to reflect the 11th edition of IT's trip generation manual. The first used first version used the 10th edition. And B, which incidentally the 11th edition was published after the first analysis was done. B, the revised, we revised the anticipated
distribution of peak hour traffic along Hale Road from 50-50 east-west to 40% west, 60% east, based on data collected at proxy sites along Hale Road. Both of the versions of the analysis resulted in the same conclusions. The study roadway segments are anticipated operate acceptably for post-development peak hour traffic conditions in consideration of Pasco County transportation performance standards. The study intersections, including the project side access connections, are also anticipated operate acceptably for post-development peak hour traffic conditions. conditions in consideration of Pasco
County transportation performance standards. Site access turnlines were found to not be warranted on Hale Road at the Project Site Driveway Connections for post-development peak hour traffic conditions. However, In the second version of the time and phasing analysis, we recommended that a westbound to southbound left turn lane be constructed on Hale Road at the easternmost project site driveway to provide for enhanced traffic safety and operations due to the proximity to the traffic signal at Collier. Again, not warranted based on traffic volumes, but recommended for safety purposes. In addition, well,
actually I'll skip that part. Both versions of the timing and phasing analysis are requested to be included in the record as they have been formally submitted via Pasco County's Ocella system under record number TNP-2021-00040, where this record also reflects staff approval of the analysis, stating that timing and phasing analysis is approved. However, at time of site plan stage, a more detailed site acts analysis. May be required.
Mm-hmm.
Multiple versions of the substandard road review analysis were prepared, with the requirements for this analysis pursuant to the LDC section 901.4. The revisions were in response to several factors as detailed in the latest version of the analysis as documented in our report dated September 13, 2022. In general, the revisions were made to reflect both the changes to the unit count and to reflect increasingly detailed methods of estimating the Distribution of daily project generated traffic in response to comments made by Drew Rourke, PE, whom was retained by
an area resident to review the traffic reports. Each version of the Substandard Road Review Analysis is requested to be included in the record as they have been formally submitted via Pasco County's Accellus System under record number SSRRA-2021-00054, where this record also reflects staff approval of the analysis stating approved with conditions. The substandard road review analysis found that portions of Hell Road are substandard. Specifically, the substandard characteristics include substandard lane width, shoulders, and clear zone. The substandard lane width was identified for a distance of 0.9 miles from the Circle K
Driveway to the west, eastward to Elpine Road, at approximately 9.5 feet, typical. Substandard shoulders were identified for a distance of 1.4 miles from the Circle K Driveway to the curb section of Hale Road, which is approximately 500 feet west of Callier Parkway, with the shoulder width ranging from meeting or exceeding the six-foot standard down to virtually no shoulder, all unpaid. Substandard clear zone was identified for a distance of 1.4 miles from the Circle K Driveway, also to the curb section of Hale Road west of Collier Parkway, with 56 utility poles located within the six-foot clear zone. Hale
Road is designated as a county collector road and pursuant to Land Development Code 901.4, mitigation of subsanta road conditions for county collector roadways shall be the payment of development's fair share of the cost to improve the roadway stand to restore roadway standards. An engineer cost estimate was prepared by Florida Land and Permitting to quantify the cost to resolve those deficiencies at a cost of just over $3 million. The resulting proportionate fair share for the referenced uh project was $281,605, where this mitigation is reflected
in the conditions of approval. And specifically in regard to east of our project. May I answer your question, John?
Yes.
So there was a discussion about a left turn lane and how would that mitigate shoulder? Well, when we build the left turn lane, we're gonna have to rebuild the entire section of road through the transitions to and from that turn lane and the full width portion as well. So by virtue of doing that, that would restore county standard conditions for that distance, which is essentially from just west of the um that eastern project driveway to the the curb section uh on the approach to Collier Parkway.
Understood. Can I ask another?
Absolutely.
You talked about directional distribution and a discussion with the other engineer what
Okay, so uh to To walk you through The uh the substandard road distribution. Um initially, we had used a distribution, and this is at the very beginning of the project, uh of 50-50. Um, due to general area characteristics. There was uh no modeling done, there was no data collected to specifically support that, but that was the initial uh as we typically do in in the traffic world make estimates based on land development
patterns and and road adjacent roadways. So that was one of I believe five different versions. So moving from there, um when we updated the substandard road analysis to reflect the um Uh the change in unit count, we had gone out and collected uh data at a couple subdivisions to the west of our project. There are two subdivisions. And I I have the names in my in my notes, but I believe one is Lago Del Rey and another one that uses uh believe a road name Caso. I
could be mistaken on that. Um but during rebuttal I can grab my notes and and tell you what those were. So either way, those are uh subdivisions of uh
That provide for proxy uh distribution data. We counted the driveways during peak hours and identified what that distribution was based on those peak hour counts for those two subdivisions. So that identified a distribution of I believe it was 40% to the West, which took this project. mitigation away for the western portion of Hale Road west of our site because we dropped below 500 daily trips. Again, the threshold, and I don't think I actually mentioned this, but the the Land Development
Code Section 91.4 requires substandard road mitigation for county collector roads when the trip impact is greater than 500. So at 40% we were below 500, mitigation went away to the west. So um the engineer that was retained by the uh by the neighbor had looked at that and said, well, what we need to do is look at a daily distribution because peak hour may or may not be reflective of daily conditions. So we agreed to do that. And at that time uh he had suggested that uh
in his Drew Rourke, P E he had suggested that we use the traffic counts uh that are available from the county or DOT, actually it was, um, to identify what the east west travel volumes are on Hale Road. And uh doing that was uh resulted in about a 50-50 more or less split, similar to what we had identified in the very original study. Yeah. Um however uh By doing that I had pointed out at that time to both county staff and to and to
Mr. Bork that taking traffic counts on Hill Road. on a daily basis does not reflect what's gonna happen for this particular subdivision or any subdivisions because you have the you're also including the effects of pass by traffic. So Hell Road does have a good amount of pass by traffic trying to get from Collier over to 41 to bypass the intersection of 54 in 41. So The resulting proportionate share from using the 50-50 more or less distribution was in the
range of $120,000. So rather than Continue arguing back and forth. We agreed to use that distribution and move forward with a cost estimate at the time that resulted in that $120,000 proportionate share. Mr. Rourke reviewed the cost estimate prepared by Florida land design and permitting and identified several areas which need to be revised, which changed the cost estimate. It uh multipl by a factor of I don't know, two and a half times more
or less. Um and with that uh the my app my my client, the applicant, had instructed me, well, let's go out and get daily traffic volumes at those at those at a l at the l at the proxy sites. So daily traffic counts compared to peak hour traffic counts obviously inv involve you know If we're doing AM and PM versus twenty four hours, you know, twelve times as much effort and cost and whatnot. So we chose the single lar the largest and the most proximate subdivision
as our proxy site and we counted it for a day and we got a distribution of I think it was 56% or 40%, I'm sorry, 40% west or something along those lines that did get us below the uh the substandard road threshold yet again. So we move forward with that version of the analysis. Incidentally, that count was taken during summertime because that's when we that's when this came up and that was the when we we initiated those counts as soon as we could after that comment was made. Um And we moved forward with that until
school started again. And uh Mr. Rourke had at that point commissioned traffic counts, Belton Suspenders traffic counts at both subdivisions for two days while school was in session, which resulted in a distribution of 56% west. So The the the takeaway between all these different values is that we're we're we're changing percentage points right around 50 percent. I think we went from 40 percent up to 60 percent, we had 45, we had 55, we kept going back and forth until the data that Drew provided was, in my opinion, and
I mentioned this back to the applicant, that was the most comprehensive and and best data that we could use. So at 56 percent westerly, we did trigger substandard. Road criteria at over five hundred trips, which resulted in our um Current proportionate share amount of two hundred and eighty one thousand dollars in change.
And of course I will be here for rebuttal. Um I have a lot of information on traffic safety.
The statement about the turn lane mitigating your impact, is that because the cost of the turn lane is equal to or greater than that proportionate share amount? It
It doesn't mitigate our impacts in the sense that we are even required to mitigate east of the site because we are below 500 tr daily trips east of our site on a collector road. However, where that turn lane is going to be constructed. By building that lane We widen the road and then Proper shoulders are put in, proper lane width is put in. Proper clear zones are put in, that that lane and that entire those entire limits of that lane, including the transition from two to three lanes. The lane itself and the transition
back from three to two lanes, that entire the limits of that improvement are built to county standard. So therefore, there is no more substandard road deficiency within that segment. And that's that turn lane does take us to where substandard road conditions are gone. East of the site, as you approach Collier Parkway, about 500 feet west of Collier Parkway, a curb section begins where the turn lanes are developed to the traffic signal. Call your parkway. That is about where our turn lane is going to extend to, which is where standard conditions are once again encountered. So essentially,
David. The turn lane. Is mitigating substandard road conditions, restoring them to standard rather, but we're not required to mitigate substandard road east of our site, but we're we're doing it by virtue of constructing this turn lane that's needed for traffic safety and operation purposes.
But you're making the proportionate share payment on top of the top of that.
The proportionate fair share payment is specifically for mitigation to the west of the site.
Okay.
From the from the eastern driveway rather, from our eastern driveway west of the site.
And if we can pull back up the the map, I can point to that. Which is which is the button to do the the pointer?
Just give me a second to bring back your Maybe I was.
Mike and David, I have a question about that.
in the substandard road. Ordinance.
If we're asking for a change of entitlement, the mitigation is you build it.
Well that would normally be the that was the old rule But the code was changed recently so that If it's on a county collector road You don't necessarily have to build it. And step is staff. Is S or somebody or in the right-of-way?
We
have
several staff members available that can address that. Okay.
Or my or Mike. I can
I can address that, John. In December of last year with the land development code changes, that section of the code was rewritten. Mitigation was uh was restructured such that the only time that a physical improvement is needed is when you impact a non collector. Our tirials are exempted now. Collectors are only mitigated at five hundred trips and above, and that mitigation consists of proportionate share. The only time physical construction is required is for local roads where you exceed, I think it was a hundred daily trips. So that section of the code is now different than it was.
Twelve months ago.
This is Essen Khalil with the current planning. Uh what Mike Raised. That's correct. And that is the reason why the issue of the western leg of Hale Road was eliminated initially because the impact was less than five hundred trips. So when the percentage changed and the impact Who do over five hundred trips? Uh that is why the the large amount of proportionate fair share came into play.
Okay, so And then I have one follow-up question, which is What did you say the proportionate share amount was again that you are paying
two hundred eighty one thousand dollars. And change. The exact
number is
two hundred eighty one thousand six hundred and five.
So And which condition requires that? Because I'm
Um signout last night.
Oh was this just something in the addendum?
Condition eleven perhaps. So it's re I don't have the conditions, David.
Tammy Tammy, is there is there revised condition eleven? 'Cause the version I have says a hundred thousand.
Okay. So was the only revision changing a hundred thousand to Two hundred eighty six thousand. Two and eighty one thousand.
The prior version The hundred thousand was a voluntary contribution by KB Holmes. towards safety improvements on Hale Road. At that point we were below five hundred daily trips west of the site, which means there was no substandard road mitigation required. So in an offer of good faith KB had agreed to pay the county $100,000 towards road improvements and install two digital speed signs. So now with substandard road mitigation being required by code. Those
two requirements were Subsequently removed and replaced with a substandard road mitigation payment of two hundred and sixty two hundred and eighty-one thousand dollars six hundred and five.
Okay.
And I I can still clarify the the east and west and the turn lane if we can put up a a graphic of if that's needed at this point.
Well I I my only concern is
Does the public know that we this is a fairly major issue for this project? I know that this revised condition was emailed to us. Uh how would the public know that we've changed is does Mr. Rourke know this?
I spoke with Mr. Rourke about this approximately two to three weeks ago and informed him of what we were modifying and m made him aware of that, yes.
I guess yeah, that's a next
Okay. I have not remembered. Okay, which I ma ma'am, I'm asking the questions. This is not a time for you to object. You can during your presentation make all the comments you want about what he said. So
I guess w uh
Whether Mr. Work is in agreement with the revised condition or not.
So Timmy. Can Mr. Work raise his hand? Is he here?
He's not
Well I my only concern is if you've been working with Mr. Wark On these revised assumptions. And now we have a revised condition that in theor theoretically Documents the revised assumptions and revised revisions. It'd be good to know whether he does or doesn't agree or if he doesn't agree, I'd like to know why. Is there some way that we can figure that out? Some time Is somebody here that can speak for Mr. Work to know we know whether he Agrees
or disagrees? Ma'am, you do you know the answer?
Do you know
come up?
Can you come up here, please?
Good afternoon. Jane Graham, Sunshine City Law, 737 Main Street. I represent Marianne Bishop. To answer your question, Mr. Rourke is actually temporarily unavailable today. We um we can try to call him, but I I can't promise that we'll be able to reach him. He's in a place where we may not be able to, he may not have that kind of access.
Do you know if he's seen this could revised conditions? Mm-hmm.
He has not seen the language of the revised condition to the best of my knowledge.
Is it possible to email him the r language and get his input? Well
Is there any way we can get his feedback? Sometime during this hearing?
Well, I I would say no because I I would think that first of all, I mean he can review it, but he would need more time than just, you know, to be have it put in front of him to say yes or no. I mean he would have to base it on some further analysis and and while he to the best of my knowledge did hear From Mr. Razor that they were adjusting the substandard road analysis. As far as the specific numbers for the cost of improvements and you know the 281, I mean
that's that's news. I I certainly haven't seen that, and that's not something that had been even emailed to me lawyer to lawyer from Ms. Shelley Johnston either.
Whether it's two hundred and eighty one thousand six hundred and five dollars or two hundred and twenty two thousand one hundred and forty seven dollars. I'm guessing they've got objections over different issues.
Well okay, but I do think that part of their objections relates to the road the substandard condition of the roadway. Yeah. I'm guessing that from the sign that's sitting right here in front of me, Mr. Moody. So so so I I do think this is a significant issue for this project, so Right. And since Mr. Razor has worked it seems for m quite a while with Mr. Rourke I guess I'll ask the applicant. Does the applicant have any evidence that Mr. Work is in agreement with this re My concern is that we got this at the eleventh
hour, this revised condition. And So I'd like to know that the opposition's consultant is in agreement or not in agreement with it, because Right. It it's it's a concern to me that it we g we got it this late and I have no idea.
Mr. Goldstein, what what I can tell you is that I did speak with Mr. Rourke and while he had not seen the specific number, what he did tell me is there there were still serious concerns about the cost of improvements and and the calculations and I know in looking at the breakdown um he did have some disagreements as to those specific numbers. So he has never told me that he is in support of the number given by KB Holmes.
Okay.
Hey David, this is us and again uh The county had our public works department review the cost estimate and they approved it. Do we need to get approval from Drew Rourke?
What okay.
Well, my concern, S is that Mr. Razor said that he worked with Mr. Work on some of these assumptions. And so apparently you all have allowed Mr. Work to have some input in this process Yet at the very end of the process you know, w we get a new condition and we apparently you left him out. That's what I'm my that's my concern. So
Actually David he was copied on the emails that another staff member, Stacy Burgess. Corresponding with Terry, Mike Razor, and uh uh Drew Rourke was on the cost estimate and the calculations that was that were being emailed back and forth. Well too. We can provide that evidence that he was.
To clarify, I had requested some information as far as the cost estimate. It wasn't specific language of a condition, and I can tell you that there is no agreement. Mr. Rourke or my client that this is a number that she's in agreement with.
Okay.
Again, I I if he's not in agreement it would be nice to know why, but i apparently we can't get that, so you all have answered my questions for now. I I will just have to proceed. So Thank you.
Were there any other f questions for me at this moment? I have a question. Unless John, you still have a question. So so I kinda got a little confused there as to um So If this were to be built, what improvements would be made when it's built and what and and or deferred?
So paying a proportionate share of the entire cost obviously will not bring the entire road up to standard. Correct. Um there was a field meeting between certain county personnel and certain uh applicants applicants team. I was not present at that particular meeting, field meeting, where I believe there was a walkthrough done and I could ask the engineer who was involved in that, Mr. J. Hunting. to uh to speak about that conversation with public works staff or traffic operations staff perhaps
as well. I wasn't there, I'm not sure. Um may have been b uh representatives from both departments. And there were certain specific um concepts that were being discussed about how safety could be improved along along the corridor.
Has the staff has Essence Department or the Public Works Department I don't know which department is in charge of this? When you write the check, if this is approved and you write the check. When's the money get spent?
Um
Yeah.
Question for the for staff. To my point about whether it doesn't really matter whether it's this number or that number, because if the money isn't gonna get spent and improve the road, we're not gonna satisfy the lady down here with the signs concerned.
Essen, are you did you want to add something there, Essen?
Yes, I was I was gonna speak. Actually, it was uh myself, Stacy Burgess, and Vinkit from Traffic Operations with uh the applicant's engineer. Uh we we met up at at the uh site location and drove uh Hale Road going from Collier all the way to 41. Uh the engineer can identify some of the specifics, but what we found was that there were several utility poles that were very close to the
edge of the roadway. We thought, you know There was right-of-way there, those utility poles need to be relocated. There were some really tight corners. All right. uh uh uh you know that may obstruct uh the uh s visibility, the triangle, site visibility triangle. There was one intersection, I'm forgetting the cross street, but it goes all the way to the south. Um that needed possibly a left turn there. Uh
Aside from that, there were certain uh bents in the road that may need some street lighting provided over there. We talked about that as well. Uh so we we do have an idea, but once the money comes in, I think Venket uh was going to uh develop a plan for safety improvements uh to spend that money. Four, four. You know, hail rope that we collect.
So I'm not sure if uh Mr. Venket is present right now or not. I I thought he was gonna Meeting virtually. I'm not sure if he's here or not.
Is the
section the
ordinance? This is Margaret Smith. I can speak for Vencat, who's in India right now, visit visiting with family. Um, before he left he had done a study, had been out out in the field as Essen said with the team. Um and what we're looking and and and when he came back, of course, he looked at the volume of traffic out there. He he uh looked at the speeds, not only the posted speed, which is thirty miles an hour But the eighty-fifth percentile
we find that many, many people are residents in the past three hours speeding. With a postage speed of 48. So you have a road that was designed back in the day with standards of back in the day. And so when you when you can't look at standards today and and condemn that road, I'm just gonna say that. Um, when you talk about clear zones not being met or our our shoulders not being what the state offer today. Uh
we don't automatically go out and update every every road every time standard change. That happens when there's changes made in the roadway that that um We try not to make those situations worse. Uh we d we don't go out and just try to update every time a new update comes along. So what we looked at that we can um do rather quickly in the last five years there there have been uh Roughly 30
accidents in five years. So say six, six a year, and it goes up and down. The last year I think we were up to eight. Um Uh so A third of those, ten of those, were at were at night. And so one of the things we looked at that we that we could do within the next fiscal year, so by this time next year. We could have lighting uh uh along that corridor at four of our intersections. So and and that would probably totally
281,000 may sound like a humongous number, but as you probably know, when you're talking about improving roadways, uh that is that is a tiny chunk of of what we need. Uh so what what we're looking at is uh four four intersections and those are King Lake Drive, Deerhound Drive, Alpine Road, and Cower Parkway. Those are the four intersections that would benefit from new lighting sometime within this
next fiscal year. So by fiscal year starts in a couple days, by this time next year, we should see some new lighting. Also, we noticed some of the chevrons were either knocked down or missing, and so we're replacing some of the chevrons in those two curves that are rather tight along Hale Road. uh and uh also working to get some of the um backlit chevron solar panel you know uh digital lights that that um
provide more emphasis that hey guys get off your phone slow your speeds there are curves coming up so in order to get the distracted driver to get the ceder we do have uh we I think the lighting will help I I think the uh LED um chevron likes Uh will help. The Chevron lights are as everything else, uh, we're having supply line um issues with getting those in again. Somewhere in the next year we should have those in.
So Margaret
the chevrons, they're just a plain signed chevrons that we can have those in rather quickly.
So Margaret, following up on Mr. Moody's point And I do understand the source of his confusion because The prior version of this condition actually identified where that money would be spent. When it was a hundred thousand. And it talked about roadway lighting, rumble strips, some other Yeah. The new condition that's been presented Just says they're gonna write a check. There there's no indicator of where it's going So
Do you know why or does Esther know why? All the language was stricken that talks about where we're going to spend that money. Mr. Razor, do you know why?
David, I can tell you what we have reviewed and our results of that review and what we think we can do in the next fiscal year, which is gonna more than eat up two hundred eighty one thousand dollars. I mean that's that's that's just like you know, a small, small uh drop in the bucket. Uh so so yeah, I can tell you what we intend to do after our review, but but I cannot tell you what the conditions of a of a development agreement uh are trying to find.
Okay, well I'm asking anybody who knows the answer. I can answer that, David. Okay.
the prior version of the analysis which matched up with the prior version of the conditions. There were fewer than five hundred trips estimated west of the site. So at that point, substandard road mitigation was not required by code. So under that scenario. The applicant volunteered a payment of a hundred thousand dollars to specifically go towards safety improvements. Now With the revisions. We do trip the threshold for substandard
road mitigation. So we are back into a a code required payment, a mitigation payment. So it's not We would love to see it spent on safety improvements. We think that would be the most applicable and appropriate thing to do. However, that's not our call to make. That's not part of that section of code. That section of code and the resulting condition were written up standard like any other project that I've been involved in that is required to you know mitigate substandard road through proportionate share. It's a proportionate share payment to the county for the county to do
what they feel is appropriate to do with that money. So that that's the distinction of voluntary payment versus a code required payment under a specific section of the code.
Let's just go back to the voluntary payment for a minute. If you gave the county a voluntary payment of two hundred and eighty one thousand six hundred and five dollars What says that payment gets spent on these things today? My one of my concerns about this. is that that's a proportionate fair share. That means it's only a fraction of what's actually needed to improve the road out here.
Land mine and the substandard road ordinance that says if the county doesn't spend this money in is it fifteen years, David? Then you get it back.
And I I would say two things in response to that, John. One is that um you know unlike many other projects, actually most every single other project that I have been involved in, there's already been a concerted effort by staff, both development and tr of traffic operations. To start identifying those improvements to get a plan together to, you know, begin begin thinking about how that money's gonna be used. I've not seen that done ever on any other project. Um and in regard to uh the proportionate share being a fraction of the total
funds, you also have to keep in mind that that is a fraction of a cost to bring the road up to full county standard. So for example, that would be eleven foot lanes. Well, would eleven foot lanes even be appropriate here on a road that's already experiencing speeding issues with curvature that you know is The alignment is pretty well set and you're gonna have curves regardless whether they're flattened out a little bit or not. You're gonna have curves and you're gonna have a need to have a design speed that's relatively low. So would it even be appropriate to implement eleven foot lanes and uh along with that, as the
engineers on the board know that, you know, speed and lane width are generally proportional. Uh narrower lanes are a speed calming, traffic calming measure. So so extending that out, whether or not restoring the m making the road meet all the substandard road characteristics, well that's maybe that's not even appropriate. So the three hundred thousand dollars or nearly three hundred thousand dollars Is three times, well, about three times what KB had volunteered be previously and and to
to make the safety improvements, which included the lighting that Margaret had discussed, sub uh uh
shielding of the
guardrails and shielding, but
you don't need to defend it. I appreciate that you're gonna pay your proportionate fair share and do what the ordinance says. What I'm concerned is These people, I'm guessing, are gonna say they want the road fixed and I want to know what happens, what mechanism is there to force the road to get fixed. So other than he made the payment doesn't mean the county has to go spend the payment next week or next year.
So the LRTP would I don't know said that, but that would not address the type of road improvement. Um So
The condition could be reworded to say that The county will spend this fair share payment on X, Y, and Z. That there's nothing prohibiting us from putting that in the conditions.
Okay, so that was gonna be a question.
We have to come up with additional money. So I'm not suggesting that that it's gonna say when we would do those things because the county has to come up with other money to do the some of those things. But But it could say that the money will be used towards specific improvements whenever we get the rest of the money. If the concern is that we're going to spend it on Ridge Road. Okay, that can be addressed. We could add language that says the money will be spent on You
demonstrated in a case earlier this week at the BCC that you could allocate mobility fees to a certain thing. This isn't a
mobility fee, but
it's a similar concept.
But yes, you could we we could add language that says that the the funds collected will be spent to address X, Y, and Z on Hale Road. In fact, there was prior the prior condition had language to that effect when it was a voluntary payment.
is not the how it's the when.
Right, but I think the problem with when is that requires the county to come up with additional funds. And I don't know if we can't really bind the Board of County Commissioners to spend come up with additional funds because then Especially the these aren't even mobility fees, this is just Probably general gas tax funds. So that's gonna be difficult to buy in the county. But they will be paying mobility.
David.
Yes.
David, we do intend to uh put the lighting in and and that's well over two hundred eighty-one thousand. We could apply that towards that cost on top of what we're already paying, what we uh are going to be paying. So I and as I said earlier, we intend to get that in before the end of this so some between and this fiscal year by the end of this fiscal next fiscal year.
So from what I'm hearing Margaret say is that sh we if we put language in here that said the county shall use this money towards roadway lighting on Hill Road. It doesn't sound like she'd have any objection to doing that 'cause that is staff's intent.
I mean yeah we already have plans. Uh we're looking at that already. Uh so that's that that's not even close to covering it, but it would certainly fall within that. Uh
if it's while it's fresh on your mind, if you wanted to make a motion to add that requirement to the condition we could do that. Well, uh I don't want to name anything until I've heard all the forget. Okay.
David, this is as an again, uh instead of saying just lighting, can we not say safety improvements?
You can say safety improvements on Hill Road, that's fine.
I guess the point is uh whatever you call it, two hundred and eighty-one thousand dollars i is gonna be um either Either if you put it on something massive, it's gonna take a lot, it's gonna take years to get that funding built up. But 281,000. is gonna cover a very de very tiny little uh safety improvement. So It it's a lot that we're we're battling over the semantics of a tiny piece of funding that we're gonna be using somewhere. And I'm if we're putting lighting in that's well over that at
this point, plus some of these solar powered uh chevrons, backlit chevrons and et cetera, etc. were were were, you know I'm not sure how much you could do for two hundred and eighty one thousand.
Right, that's what I'm saying, Mark. That is part of the safety improvement. And if you want to just call it safety improvements, uh uh uh
yeah.
Okay, so it sounds like staff has no objection to a requirement that the funds be spent on safety improvements on Hale Road. So but somebody just needs to not forget to add that to the condition whenever we get there.
Okay. So so is the sidewalk part of those road improvements? That may or may not happen immediately.
I
mean staff would and I'll let I'll let Essin or Margaret address it, but I believe they do consider sidewalks to be a safety improvement, if that's your question.
Yeah, that's kind of my question, because that goes back to the timing of when
Margaret or Essen will have to address whether there's even a something that we could do there. I have no idea.
No Mr. Williams.
Yeah, I I'll I'll be brief. Uh just to be clear, Substain Road does not consider sidewalks. uh when you're calculating a fair share. That is not part of nine oh one point four. Uh Unless Mike can say that they included it that that'll be something different, but uh the nine oh one point four does not require that. All right, but there's mobility fees that are gonna get paid and that's another part
of money.
Yeah, they they will pay part of their site plan uh funds towards the sidewalk, which can be eventually used towards it. But we do not have right of way to Do the entire improvement along this hail road. It was resurfaced, I'm I'm guessing not too long ago by the county. And they did not widen it, they kept it the same, it was just a resurfacing job. Uh we do not have right of way. It's very tight. You cannot get eleven foot lanes and then have the uh drainage swales and
the sidewalks. There just isn't enough room unless you go through eminent domain process and start buying our properties along the frontage on Hill Road.
No, I n I understand I agree. I understand Essen, but I guess but but this project would would have the right of way to do it in front of their project, correct?
They can, uh but at times when the sidewalk is not going anywhere, nothing to connect to, we just collect the funds.
Are we collecting funds that are we collecting funds? Because we could we could separate those away for future future because this would be way out. The uh putting site ones. They're not here with a site plan if I'm
not mistaken. Yeah the the same thing.
Because if every time we say we don't aren't gonna put sidewalks out because we don't have sidewalks on the rest of a corridor, we leave another gap. So I'm never opposed to sidewalk being constructed or or at all driveways left turn lanes because When we have new driveways and we don't have left turn lanes on a two-lane road, we are actually taking a situ a two-lane road that, as you guys say, is substandard and we're making it more substandard by not putting those left turn lanes in. As you can see from the accident history,
if anyone's looked at it, we have side swipes and that type of thing at driveways where drive where left turn lanes have not been required. So I noticed on there's three driveways on this, on this for this development, and only one. has a left turn. So I that gives us a little concern considering you're talking sub as you said it's an old road that's substandard. And um We we like to see we like to see driveways put into Uh to it mitigates that
where there wasn't a driveway before there is now and if you had a left turn lane in Root traffic could continue on. So um Without worrying about hitting the back of the of the of the uh vehicle that stopped in the middle of the through lane to make a left. Same with right.
Yeah, thank you, Margaret. Uh point well taken. Just to just to be clear, the amount of trips that they will generate does not warrant a single left turn or a right turn.
I agree. I I understand your numbers, Essen, but I'm telling you the facts that when you put new driveways in on these roads, you are creating an issue that and I'm saying to mitigate that issue, even though it's not doesn't meet the numbers, you're putting new driveways in. You're having new vehicles stopping in the road to take less or slow down. And you I'm just saying if you wanted to mitigate complete impact of a development, you would you would always put a left on
a two-lane road, no matter the numbers, you would always put the auxiliary lanes, the left turn and the right turns.
Margaret Nesson
mitigate that is right.
Margaret Nesson, I think we're kind of getting sidetracked here and there's uh plenty of people here and I don't think the county's buying dinner. So um
I'm just giving you some mitigation.
No, I I appreciate that
and just real quick, so the reason I bring that up is cause there is sidewalk along Collier Parkway. So since this is on the corner it it would make sense to do that.
Now it is it s is it standard for sidewalks to be identified and and required as part of the site plan or as part of this rezoning?
Yeah, as part of the the site plan and construction plan design, the roads are to be standard. So those sidewalks are included in the complete streets concept. Uh but like Essen was saying is at times when there's another improvement on a roadway in the near future, we defer that and allow the payment instead and apply the payment towards the future improvement to put the sidewalks in when the future improvement comes in. in but you can simply require that those sidewalks go in now as part of the site plan and not allow that other option if you want. That's perfectly
fine. But is it normal to make that a part of the approval of the site plan or a part of the zoning?
The code requires pedestrian facilities.
Okay. Yeah, I just didn't know whether it was normal to defer that till they came in with their construction planning. Only in front of
the project.
That's right, correct.
If we wanted to make them extend a sidewalk like out to Collier Parkway, we'd need to make it a condition here.
Yes, and if it's off site we'd probably have to offer some form of mobility fee credits to make them do that. But don't go
all the way to Collier?
But I think there's a bigger issue here though, which is that I think what Essen said there's there's not enough right away to at a sidewalk off site. I I I heard so
uh i we
can't really make but I mean that would require condemnation power which would the developer doesn't have
On the south side. They have all the way to Cauer. Yeah, that's one I'm thinking.
But through their site we could clearly they could clearly dedicate enough right away and build a sidewalk through their site. Absolutely.
Yeah, so on the one side of Hail Road, just not on both.
Yes. Right. Right.
Okay.
Anything else for the applicant? Oh one more thing, um, Mike, if you can with your team while we're hearing from others, if you guys can revisit condition nine or or the note nine on the uh master plan. I'm just not quite sure what that language says. You don't need to address it now. I'm sure you're gonna have a rebuttal. So if you just look at it and
We'll do.
Thank you.
Thank you, Mike.
Okay. Um so now um public comment period. Um
Mr. Chair, how would you like to handle this? Because we do have um f I think four folks
on
WebEx.
Hold on one second, Denise. Sorry, motion to receive and file. From
it's still moved. Second.
All in favor?
Aye. Aye.
Motion carries.
So my my recommendation, Mr. Chair, would be to first take The people that have requested additional time.
The public hearing, they may cover a majority of the issues. And then take everybody else, whether they're on WebEx or general public.
Perfect. Okay, so we'll start with. I think there was five people total that requested additional. I start from whoever requested the longest period of
time and then go down.
Requested 15 minutes.
Okay, we will start with uh Jane Graham. Yes, the fifteen minutes are for Jane Graham, Marianne Bishop, Drew Rourke. And J Jared Jacobs per um Ms. Graham's um request.
Thank you. But before I go, I'd actually like um if Lily Zoo could go, she's a high school student that has to leave. She had signed in and I think sh her name was first. So if I if we could defer just to to her.
I don't have a problem with that. So she had requested the five minutes, I think, is that right?
Yeah, the can you come to the podium?
Well,
So
My my question's gonna be obviously are are when you say you can your classmates come, are they part of your five minutes?
On the same presentation?
Yes, because we have a shared power.
Okay, so you're you're doing five minutes and then they're each doing three?
that that's not the way the request came in. Um I mean there's other people that requested additional time based on combinations of people. Um I I mean I I we we have a we have a protocol here and we've gotta follow the protocol. Okay.
How do you have any idea how long your presentation is? Is it Fourteen minutes? I mean, I think that's a good thing
just get through it as fast as you can understand. I'm just I mean I I don't You're limited to five minutes.
I mean they they can speak this up presentation, right?
They in theory could share a slide and you could do three minutes of that slide.
Do the same presentation.
I mean if they're just using one PowerPoint and they each have three minutes of slides it's it's probably fine 'cause they could speak for three minutes anyway.
Okay.
May I begin?
Yeah, you can begin.
Good afternoon. My name is Lily Zoo and I am a senior at Land O' Lakes High School. I live about eight minutes away from Hill Road, frequently passing by on my way to the Rosebud Continuum or School. Land O' Lakes High School is also about six minutes away from Hill Road and has over 2,260 students, making it the biggest school of our county. However, with heavy congestion daily, our school system and staff are constantly strained. The alarming trend of the increasing student to staff ratio affects our ability to learn and evacuate if there is ever an emergency in the classroom or bus. As Scientific
Journal Club president, the Rosebud Continuum Sustainability Education Center, by this proposal, is invaluable to us in a realm beyond words. It is where we, along with other students, can connect with our earth, stimulating research and people who come from all around the world to this biodiversity hotspot in Florida. It was through the Rosebud that our club began our intensive 10-month research project, starting last year, investigating the effects of development on lake water quality and biodiversity. We spent hours upon hours
outside testing water samples, scouring online data, meeting with organizations over the state for this very purpose of protecting this ecosystem. That's how much it means to us. It is necessary for me now to emphasize that it is not just my small group here today that is concerned. We have collected about 200 letters from concerned Land O' Lakes High School students and other PASCO high schoolers. As youth, we are all stakeholders affected by this rezoning. I wish I had time to read each of the 200 letters that are part of the record for this hearing. But some talk about
their siblings who walk to Pineview Elementary School daily on Hill Road despite all the hazards of open ditches and lack of sidewalks. Thank you, KB Holmes, for your proposal. Some who have experienced preventable flooding firsthand in their home. Some who just described the unique character and wildlife of this region. I chose a quote from student Aidan Rosso, a senior, whose letter captures how many of us feel. He writes, I really care about my fellow Land O' Lakes students, and I would hate to lose a friend to a car crash because of a lack of a swift response
due to an abundance of traffic on Hill Road. Another junior, Bavia Kaye, writes, As a child who grew up here, I have so many memories of driving past these beautiful forests, breathing in the crisp air and playing on the fields with my friends. I hope that the next generation can have these future memories that they come to cherish as much as I do. And we have the power to ensure this. And it's not just the student stakeholders. The Pasco School Board and my school staff that I've been communicating with have also expressed concerns over this. This is not an
issue fixable by money, but for character and nature that is harder to quantify. As this lake is also connected to the Cypress Creek watershed, what each of us in this room and all in the entire Tampa Bay region rely on for our water, our lifeline, the dangers of this development extend to a much more Concerning level. We are not against development. As youth, we are very open to positive change in our community. But we want to sustain development that is sustainable and transparent for this region, that is the heart of our community and has shaped it into
what it is and who I am today. The buffer proposed is not nearly sufficient, as every square foot of this region is important to the ecosystem, history, and character. As student scientists thinking long term ahead, the effects and the numerous detriments have not been sufficiently investigated yet. So for the sake of the future, for me and other concerned youth of Pasco, please understand that there is always a wisest time, place, and practice for development. We do not believe this is one of them. Thank you for your time and
consideration of our future.
Could you just make sure the timekeeper's now doing three minutes each? Okay, thank you.
And just please state your name and address and and confirm that you've been sworn.
Uh good afternoon. My name is Ajinkha Bardwaj. I live on [address removed]. Uh and I'm what s were under oath? Okay.
Were you sworn under oath? Did you raise your right hand? Yes, sir. Okay. Very good. Thank you.
Uh I'm a senior at Land O' Lakes High School and a scientific journal club officer. We have compiled a database of different lakes in Pasco County with information including phosphorus, nitrogen, and chlorophyll A levels, which are essential nutrients to a lake's ecosystem. If their levels are not in a healthy range, it could disrupt the fragile ecosystem. And the lake. Unfortunately, these chemicals are often associated with new developments. Fertilizers, industrial waste, sewage water, etc., are all sources of phosphorus and nitrogen pollution in lakes. When there is too much of these nutrients, eutrophication
occurs, as rapidly growing algae and aquatic plants absorb the dissolved oxygen in the lake, leaving other organisms without sufficient oxygen. High amounts of phosphorus can also result in algae blooms. Releasing toxins in the water, a hazard not only for the wildlife, but also for humans. Additionally, if there is too little of the chemicals, the growth of aquatic plants would significantly decrease, disrupting the fragile foods chain of the lake. A decrease in these nutrients can result from nutrients being heavily absorbed from the soil, which can result from non native plants often used in housing developments. The chorophyll
A levels is a determining factor as to how much plant life is present in the lake. As I unfortunately didn't didn't have time to explain all of our research nor describe how much effort and dedication we have put into it, I will briefly discuss two cases. Lake Joyce is identified as a clear hard water lake. A healthy range of phosphorus in this type of lake is between thirty and ninety micrograms per liter. The healthy range of nitrogen is between ten fifty and nine ten micrograms per liter. And the healthy amount
of chlorophyll A is twenty micrograms per liter. As you can see, Lake Joyce does not meet these requirements for any of the chemicals, being below their required ranges. Lake Joyce has a housing s has housing surrounding it, and although the housing is less crowded and older compared to newer developments, there is still an apparent effect on the lake environment, evident by the low amount of chlorophyll. Looking at Lake Lazy Duck, we see a different trend. The lake is identified as a clear, soft water lake, so its ranges are a bit different. Ten to thirty micrograms per liter for sof uh phosphorus, fifty-one to nine thirty
micrograms per liter for nitrogen. and one to ten micrograms for chlorophyll A. Looking at the graphs for lazy duck, we can see that the lake has met all these requirements. Subsequently, the lake has barely any development around it. I want to emphasize that as a young scientist and student stakeholder, it is clear clear that the current infrastructure and precious lake cannot support cannot be supported by this unsustainable development. Thank you for your time.
Can I ask you a question?
Yeah.
Is The lake adjacent to the proposed development In a Is listed at the state's website of Water's Not Attaining Standards? I'm not sure about that.
categorizes all water bodies and whether and their nitrogen and dissolved oxygen levels and chlorophyll A levels. and if the waters do not attain standards The Southwest Florida Water Management District makes the developer design his stormwater system to demonstrate numerically that the runoff will have the excess nutrients removed. So I think it would be important That we check
To find out whether or not this lake is actually listed. And also to find out is the does anybody know is there a basin management action plan in place in this Have you all met with the water management district?
Um we have been in contact with Swift MUD, but we haven't spoken to them specifically about these two lakes that we showed. These were from the Lake Watch program, which is in contact with UF. And we haven't checked the website you mentioned, but we will.
Okay.
Okay, thank you.
Um good afternoon. My name is Rakshit John Voss. I live at [address removed]. And I'm a senior at Land O' Lakes High School and I was sworn in already, so it's all good. Very good. As a student who lives in Pasco County for most of my life, I have come to love the nature and wildlife that it contains. Pasco County contains a great amount of wildlife and enjoyments for our diverse community. Kids love to go to the
parks and trails, others like to go to the lakes and ponds, and some just like walking through the various cypresses and wetlands that it contains. Yeah. Essentially our environment is what ties us all together. For example, I love ro I love w um biking down the quiet open fields past the Wiregrass Mall and I used to and it it was very calming as the fr the air was very fresh and the scenery was very comforting. I get the same feeling when I get
go to Rosebud Continuum, and I absolutely love the clear lake and its um calming and quiet atmosphere. However, with development, I fear that it will become crowded just like what like just like what happened to the Wiregrass area, because once high development comes in, the animals and people living here will be greatly affected. Animals will have to become accustomed to new light and noise population from these development that will affect their habitats and,
you know, life routines. Citizens lose the peace and quiet that they once had due to congestion and traffic in these areas uh as they will greatly increase, and runoff from this construction would also pollute the water and the vegetation that makes our beautiful county beautiful.
Mm-hmm.
Um due to the fact that all the lakes are interconnected, if one is affected, all of them will be affected, causing a domino effect in which all the lakes suffer as time goes on. In essence, everything that grows here and makes Pasco County such a valued valuable place would be undermined. Additionally, the rezoning does not have appropriate access to a standard roadway. Yeah, one more will likely cause more traffic congestion in the Land O' Lakes area and
will disrupt public services as there will be a delay in fire and police respondents uh responses and um school transportation systems. As a young adult who has just begun driving, it scares us to visualize the kind of impact that development on Hill Road would have on our safety. My school cares deeply about this and as Lily said, I hope you take the time to go through each of our two hundred letters voicing their concerns as takehold stakeholders for this for a mature decision. Thank you.
Thank you.
Um my name is Mackenzie Ivancick. Address is [address removed] and I was sworn in. Um, good afternoon. I am currently a senior involved with the Scientific Journal Club at Land O' Lakes. Throughout the past year within this club, I have been able to have great involvement with both the community and research relating to new development and the environment. And I've become increasingly concerned along with the other members. With a rush to develop, we are ignoring the significant problems that could be created within our environment. As we began begin to look upon
building in these areas that could impact the Cypress Creek watershed, we risk creating larger scale problems with um Not significant enough solutions. Um to build uh within this watershed could remove a lot of the um
Sorry. Um
would remove the um prevention of a lot of the chemicals, as Ajinkia had mentioned, seeping into the water and which would be heavily impactful to all of our ecosystems and the animals along with us. Um The watershed also helps to minimize the likelihood of flooding and damage to both the ecosystems and buildings. And while there are retention ponds, they are much more likely to be overflowing than these watersheds and are and require more maintenance to be as successful. Um
Without significant maintenance, they can become overrun with water quality issues in relation to the amount of nutrients and chemicals present, which can exacerbate problems within an ecosystem, presenting problems for wildlife and the general environment if and when they do overflow. We are especially concerned about lakes such as the one at Rosebud Continuum, which have been so well preserved over such a long period of time. Uh if there's no well clear established plan over what we're going to do to uh maintain these uh retention ponds and to uh keep these uh nutrients
from heavily impacting ecosystems, we could run into significant problems. Aside from general environmental concerns, through conversations with community members, I've also developed deep concerns about whether this is currently a realistic plan with the already stressed infrastructure within this area. Without full use of the watershed to manage flooding, community members already struggling with close cause of flooding at the bottom of hills or slopes during heavy rains are much more likely to experience problems, and likely with a greater intensity. Why must we add to already existing problems without first coming up with effective long-term solutions for the ones that we do have? I'm by no means against development,
as are my peers. And it has been a beautiful thing within the past few years to see various areas in Pasco County flourish without harmful impacts to the environment. However, these new developments such as this one need more time to be carefully planned so we know we have the brightest outlooks for our community. Thank you for your consideration on this subject.
Thank you.
I would. Ask the four of you. One, I'm very impressed with the knowledge that you have about water quality, and that's Part of my profession. But as engineers, our job is to find solutions. If I just told my clients I can't, I can't, I can't, nothing would ever get done. So the job here as a scientist is to find solutions to these problems. And I actually think if you'll go talk to the people at the water management district, you'll find
that they have a vast expertise of that actually do have answers to some of the problems that you're asking questions about. So I go that'll be your homework for next week I guess. Go take a field trip to the water management district and talk to them about numeric n nutrient removal and I think you'll probably sleep easier at night.
From Swift MUD, as well as other people invested in water quality in this region, including from the UF IFAS program. And I hope you understand that as student scientists, we're not just scientists, we're also students who have lived here for a long time. So I'd like to also emphasize that we're also looking at things not related to just water quality.
Sure. Yeah and I I think I mean just to echo John's point, I mean good jobs to you know You guys seem to put a lot of work into it to keep up the hard work, but I mean I I challenge you and I always challenge the younger generation. I have younger kids myself and I I always always challenge her to um Rather than just say why why not or you can't, just it it's more along the lines of how or what can you do to get to point B. 'Cause that that's more of the exercise and more of the challenge. It's easy to say no. Um so I I just challenge you guys to um you keep striving forward
and and try to find out, you know, what you can do to to help the problem.
We
just want it
to be.
Sure. Very good.
And if any of you are interested in engineering internships, please call
me.
All right, so moving back to Jane.
Good afternoon.
Good afternoon.
My name is Jane Graham, attorney and founder of Sunshine City Law. I represent Ms. Marianne Bishop, a neighboring property owner and affected party. Today, KB Homes has the burden to meet Pasco County Land Development Code rezoning criteria for both Euclidean rezoning and also MPUD rezoning, and they cannot meet these criteria. Specifically, the impact of the development on surrounding land uses and significant environmental features, adequacy of existing public services,
which was already spoken about at length. existing land use patterns, adverse effects on living conditions, and the legitimate public purpose to keep the zoning how it is. This proposal is also inconsistent with the PASCO Comprehensive Plan in that it does not take into account agricultural buffers or the mission of the central market area and creates conditions that are unlike they're likely unsafe for pedestrians and drivers. Pasco County's Code and Comp
Plan promote innovations in MPUDs while protecting their surroundings communities, surrounding communities. You will hear from Mrs. Bishop, who has lived on the neighboring property for over two decades with her family and transformed the land into a sustainability center and rewilded landscape, with Lake Rosebud as its treasure. Rosebud Continuum is a pillar of the Pasco. Community, partnering with schools, organizations that help people with disabilities, and cutting-edge and innovative scientists and
urban and urban planning on sustainable living. She will speak about the surrounding land use, public safety, and flooding issues, and compatibility. And again, everything that we're talking about, we're relating back to the criteria under 402.1 and 402.2. You should know that my client has attempted to work with KB Homes to resolve this and be good neighbors for months prior to being here today. And you have already been introduced to the conversations with our traffic engineer, Mr. Drew Rourke.
He did successfully work with KB Homes. engineered to help correct some of the flaws in their substandard road analysis and and we do appreciate that. Although there are still underlying flaws in the definition of actually what a roadway segment is under 904.1. Plus we do have ongoing disputes in the calculation on the cost of improvement. You will hear from our land use planner Jared Jacobs, who analyzed the Hale Collier MPUD and found that the proposed MPUD does not represent an
appropriate transition of land use. The lots are too small and don't take into account buffers and the existing zoning. Planning Commissioners, I want you to know that your planning staff has largely refused to speak with my client and our team over the last few months to address the flaws in this proposal and despite numerous requests. And it's it's really a shame that I'm up here today where we're talking about these flaws because we genuinely wanted to work. work it through
before. And just so that you know, my client, she's not anti-development. She owns a construction company and she simply wants to see a project that complies with the code and comp plan while protecting the environmental integrity of Lake Rosebud. And she would like to see a li a conservation easement over the whole lake. You'll hear from numerous members of the community and representatives of a newly formed coalition of neighbors known as Hale Know, who have evidence of existing and ongoing infrastructure problems with within the area. Finally,
I do have to make a few objections for the record. The hearing should be after five based on state statute, and is not, and it it is, well actually at this point, I don't know if it is after five.
Also it has been continued numerous times since May, and as had been previously discussed, it is in Newport Ritchie, the opposite end of where it will be it was initially noticed and then will be in Dade City again. So there are just some complications involving public participation that we do want you to take into account. Pasco County has a really innovative code that directs growth in sustainable, environmentally sensitive, in a safe way, and it's up to you to make sure that these applications
comply. And with that, I'd like to introduce you to our planner, Jared Jacobs, and enter our our evidence into the record.
Sure, it's an affidavit by Marianne. Bishop. A letter um with it from or sorry, a um an article from Tampa Bay Times, a letter that she had received back in two thousand three regarding a similar proposal um for Dupree Lakes, um information from Drew Rourke and information from Jared Jacobs.
Okay, do we have a motion on the floor? For a second. All moved. Motion is second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Opposed. Thank you, sir.
David, can I ask a question? Yeah quick. She said there's a state statute that requires this hearing happen after five.
So the board has waived that the the statute allows the board to waive that requirement which the board has done and I can In a second I'll pull up the statute that tells you. It allows the board to do that. So I don't agree with her because our board has waived that requirement.
All right. Hello every hello, gentlemen. Thank you for your time. My name is Jared Jacobs. I have been sworn in. I'm a planner with Paradise Key. I have been speak up with I have been bonded by the ethics of the American Planning Association and I have quite a few other accreditations. I have about eight years of experience working as a planner with different institutions and municipalities. Um and I'm here to represent Ms. Marian Bishop. I first want to start out by saying let's look at this map. So Lily pointed out how it is connected to the Cypress Creek, and
as you can see, there is a direct canopy with only Collier Road separating Cypress Creek to the property. So that is what's feeding all of the birds and bees to the property. That's helping create the opportunity for all the STEM and education that you're that you're seeing today. Um so this is one of the current uses of the property. It is an educational facility. Um people with disabilities, um uh college students and high school students all come to the property. um to learn about their local
environment and traditional agricultural practices. Um uh so The practices that are being uh that's happening on the property go above and beyond the standards. Uh with there's a quote here by Dr. Craig Hugel and he goes in to say how his experience working with the property for the past five years he's seen a substantial enhancement in the local ecology. So Lake Rosebud has uh was discovered back in eighteen forty-seven uh from a survey, so it has a historic significance
beyond its uh pristine. Health. So this is a picture from the property right now. Its existing land use pattern is agricultural. It's very rural.
So let's As a Planning Commission, you know what the purposes are of AR and R1 zoning, but the purpose of rural density is to be a transitional use primarily between agricultural areas and suburban development. And the other a uh area that's being proposed to up uh zone to MPUD is Agricultural Residential District, which is designed to be a attract of large land to accommodate those individuals who desire a rural estate type
living environment.
All right, so neighborhood properties. Um the Rosebud continuum is zoned AC. Um the purpose okay we just went over that, I'm sorry. So this is the area uh long Hill Road. As you can see, um Yeah, we'll we'll talk about that in a minute. I'm not gonna read this, but let me let me dig into this. So this, as you can see in red, that's uh the AC zoning. I'm
sorry, not doing so well.
Yeah.
I'm sorry for taking up time. I'm gonna go quickly through this. Uh here's the limit of Mott area comparison. Uh we made some charts to make it easy to see.
Maximum lot coverage.
The possible gross density.
So the future land use element, appendix 4.2 of the Pasco County Comprehensive Plan, states that property owners are not entitled to all zoning classifications or the most potential dense or dense zoning classification. So what that means is it's up to you as the commission to decide what the zoning density can be relative to the existing land use and the neighbouring uh uses.
Um the development standard uh 522.4. the primary use of the of of the site, make sure that it's compatible with its neighbors. This goes into buffers to make sure that there are compatible buffers between the input and the neighboring properties.
Um and the inconsistencies.
So this is the area that we wanted to highlight. Uh specifically lots one oh nine, ninety seven, and ninety-six are right up onto the lake and is not a significant or an adequate buffer.
The central market area. So this is An area of um potential growth for the uh property? And uh the The elephant in the room is housing as opposed to jobs. which is w this is the central business district area. So the Rosebud Continuum is in the very bottom middle of the central business district or um Market area. This is a map of all the zoning. As you can see, everything
east of Uh the Land Oakes Boulevard. There's very little. It's restrictive to commercial zoning. And the only commercial zoning that is buildable right now is within the Rosebud Consenium's property. So what we're suggesting what could be a potential use of the land is to balance the job to housing balance. Uh Pasco County has a Deficit? of um jobs to housing.
And as we can see the c from the commuting patterns, most people are leaving Pasco County to make it to their jobs. So that is going to create. Um
Uh additional traffic concerns. um at the edge of Collier Road.
All right. And so this is my conclusion. KB Holmes fails to meet the burden to meet criteria for input rezoning and is inconsistent with the Pasco County Comprehensive Plan.
Can I ask a couple questions? Yeah. First you said the Can you go back to your slide on buffers?
You said there wasn't an adequate buffer around the lake.
Did we stop the time for questions? Okay, very good. Okay. Thank you.
Right.
So you want to look at
This one right here.
Yeah and I'm sorry 'cause it's kind of small. So
Yeah, so there wasn't a very high resight map that we could have there. So uh an adequate buffer requires um a certain amount of distance between the wetlands and slope. um and the uh the the built property and The The um The plot size, if you have all of those uh properties at that size in that area, there's not gonna be enough space between uh what has been designated
as the wetland and the buildable property.
Well what's the buffer that you think is adequate? Because the code's gonna require them to this is gonna be a category one wetland, so the code's gonna require a minimum twenty-five-foot buffer. around that lake. Even though the water management district will let them go as low as fifteen, our county comprehensive plan is gonna require it be twenty five. So twenty-five
would be the code requirement. There's also the um The FSU does have uh Like ordinances on best practices, as well as what plants should and could be planted in those areas to restrict the amount of uh f um uh runoff. So that could be an e an example of what could be recommended there. But um but based upon the
What I'm asking you is is twenty is twenty-five foot Adequate. Is twenty-five foot, because that's what the code's gonna require, is that adequate? You're making the claim that there's not adequate buffering. I'm saying there's going to be buffering. So the question is Are you satisfied that there's now going to be buffers or do you think there needs to be more or what twenty
Can I can I just say some as living on this lake that it's twenty five feet from the delineation line. I don't necessarily agree with where they've drawn the delineation line based upon them doing it in May and at Rise and knowing that I have done it on my property more than once. So twenty uh like I you can walk out there right now and step right smack dab into to water that is more than twenty-five feet from the edge of the lake. So you have to go from the delineation line that additional twenty-five feet and therefore
it does not seem as if that would work. I tried to go back over there but it's so overgrown now that I couldn't measure for you where the actual uh wetland growth is from the edge of the lake. But I can tell you it's a very it it it's Having lived on the other side, I can tell you our house if you could stay on there how far ours is from the lake. Because we followed those rules. I think at the time we did it it was thirty five feet, but it's still that from that delineation line.
Okay. And the other two points that I want to make is the plot sizes of what's in the plan won't when it's added up won't allow that twenty five feet. So if they can fake make the twenty five
feet, but it doesn't matter whether they're
Right.
Non binding concept plan allows it or not, the land development code's gonna require it.
Okay.
And the water management district's not gonna give them a permit until they have a buffer, whether it be fifteen or twelve I'm sorry, average twenty-five with a minimum of fifteen, but they're gonna have some buffer around that lake.
past that twenty five feet you will find cypress trees which are a protected, you know.
J just for clarification and the applicant clarify this during rebuttal, but there's a clear note on the M P D on their master plan that says that the the environmental or the weather line shown on here is conceptual only. And the actual delineation will be approved by the regulatory agencies when they get into the design. So there's a line on a piece of paper right now. There's no there's no set in stone flag out there that's been approved and adopted by the agencies.
conflict of interest on changing the rezoning for a particular
amount of homes?
Well uh it's i it's how I mean it's how many they can fit and their their design standards are set forth here. I mean they can only get I mean if they only have a hundred feet and they gotta provide fifty foot lots, they can only get two lots. It doesn't matter whether they show five on their plan.
Right yeah, we we appreciate that, Mr. Vice Chair. I think you know from the perspective of the buffering it it's um Mr. Jacobs is speaking kind of more from a conceptual land use and zoning perspective that it's you know kind of looking through the the neighboring land uses and I I think you know we obviously do understand the code requirements as far as mm buffers and Swift mud requirements. So I I think that that's you know I don't want us to get too caught in the weeds, no pun intended.
Okay. Well the your next claim
We should use the land for job creating uses. Yes. And what I'm trying to figure out is if we're concerned about buffering And water quality in lakes. I'm trying to figure out how the job creating uses, whether there's a factory or a McDonald's on this site or Walmart. Is different from the 109 homes as far as those kind of impacts.
So the two major concerns that we wanted to point out was the existing land use as transitioning. So as you go from R two to R one to to AC, that is an appropriate use, uh transition use. But if the input gets approved, it's gonna jump from
It's gonna jump from that purple to that yellow, right? That's a massive transition. And then it's gonna jump from the yellow to the red. So never ever ever should an input input border agricultural. That is a drastic transition of land use.
Everywhere in this county. Well I won't say it's everywhere, but it's definitely
not again the the the comprehensive plan and not the zoning is the is the growth tool.
Um
and
I'm not sure you've answered Mr. Moody's question. Mr. Moody's question was Is this you you've argued that the site is appropriate for non residential employment uses? I think he's asking you, is the are the site conditions and infrastructure sufficient to Support a non-residential use in this location.
Right. We're gonna hear from people.
They're gonna tell me about substandard roads. Yeah, so the second point I wanted to make out was the central market area. The central market area's goal and mission and vision is to build a more compact mixed use area. And by looking at this next map Um you'll see that there is none of that. We do not have a shortage of homes. We have a shortage of commercial opportunities. There's there's a lack of job.
But you you specifically said this site was appropriate for commercial.
I'm pretty sure you did. He insinuated it should be for a job creating use.
Say
that yeah,
there could be a
Right. Let me let me get to one of the pictures. This area right here would be ideal for a small commercial area. Like I'm thinking of like a main street. If we want to get creative, have some design conversations I'd love to. What's the future land use here? The future land use is is R six.
Res six.
Yes.
Right. And are we does Just fall within it's not five acres in field less than five acre infill development. We don't fall within the commercial node. criteria, do we? Mr. Petos.
Would this would this site qualify to fall within the commercial node? Criteria for
Off the top of my head I would say no, but I have to look into that. Can I Get you the answer in just a few minutes. Fair
enough. So but I think what he probably argue is that the the land use could be changed to P D or some other Land used to would allow for mixture uses But he's talking to address his fundamental question, which is Can Hale Road even support those types of uses?
Yeah, so this would the access would be on Cauley Road.
Okay, but this site doesn't have access to call your correct? The one before us. Sorry? The site that's m before us today does it have access to Collier? There is no access.
Then how are you proposing access to Collier Parkway?
Well that this is I mean that's the goal is to try and remove the traffic from Hale. W which can't support it to call your which
can. I guess what I'm trying to figure out is how could this site be changed to a non residential use, even if it's only current access is the Hale.
Oh, this site? Um so the current access to Hale is is currently being used for one single residential. In this area.
But you you've suggested that it could be a mixed use or or non residential use. I'm asking how does that work? Um if it's only accesses to hail.
No, adhere to design things. You know, it's just looking at different
Uh I'm asking your consultant a question, not you, ma'am. No Please don't feed him answers, thank you. So
I mean yeah, I would like to I would I would love to go in and design a Main Street and win a complete streets award. But the access right now that is on Hale Road is just for one single home as opposed to if it could be accessed from Collier, then it would that would work. But it doesn't have access to Collier. Right. Right now it has zero access to Collier.
I I'm pretty sure that the site that the spacing and the wetlands and the environmental features and all that's gonna restrict the the the access onto Collier. I mean they have six hundred feet of frontage and there's a and there's a road immediately south of the property boundary. to the adjacent residential. So I I don't I mean but we're kinda getting sidetracked here a little bit, but
Right.
Um that answer your question, John? Sure.
Is is uh is there time up yet? I'm curious because we got a lot of other people like to do that. Well the the qu the questions I ask the questions.
I'd like to ask quick two questions. Okay. What does eighteen forty seven have to do with anything? I'm questioning that one. And go ahead, please.
Oh eighteen forty seven. It's a historic lake. It it was discovered one on the one in of the original surveys of Pasco County.
Okay. I I could probably go back a couple of years and say all Florida was underwater. Well how
does that change? Okay, no problem. Whether the lake appeared on a map in eighteen forty seven or nineteen seventy-eight, how does that change things?
It's being visited by residents all over the county as opposed to some indigenous people as a sacred site. So it has historic significance.
And I honestly I think I mean the environmental guys could probably confirm this, but I would guess that's probably why it's identified as a category one wetland.
That's protected. I mean, you know, I mean you guys understand category one wetlands are are pretty protected in Pasco County. Um
But that doesn't
For the comprehensive plan. Did you have other questions?
Yeah, I had one more question. You talked about uh Lake Rosebud. Was that a school or environmental? Lake
Rosebud is the what currently what a lot of people are calling the Lake
Yeah, but she sh you indicated on your what I saw visually, was it looked like a environmental school or something where you have students showing up or the continuum. What is is it is that what it is, a environmental school? It is and you have students showing environmental center.
For people yes, for people coming from colleges, from other states, from other countries, from high schools. The Lily and the group, they were out there all the time. Um
let me finish. How do they get to that property then? By automobile? What? I'm just curious, is there worlds in there to it?
Yeah, they're they come up for one driveway.
Okay. So it's that house that we saw there, that piece of property. Where he wants to put his I guess community center or some type of marketing.
No, that's across the street.
Yeah, because you went through your presentation quite quickly and I got lost. I'm a
this is one of our groups, Lightning, and has to be somebody here to speak on them today, but I don't I'm sure she had to leave already. There was a video with the people from Live Learning or Function.
Okay, so do you want to come back up to the or up to the podium and finish your presentation?
Yes, I would, Lisa.
That'd be great.
I would like to um submit this for y'all to see part of what I'm going to be
talking about. Pictures, is that what they are?
They're just two packets of pictures.
Okay. Motion
to accept. Second.
Motion and second. All in favor? Aye. Opposed. Motion carries.
Mr. Chair, we need a we need an introduction as well.
Yes. Name and address.
Okay. My name is Marianne Bishop, [address removed]. I'm gonna try to go through I had it all written down, but there's been a lot of discussion, so I've kind of changed it. But basically I own the 19 acre parcel next to the proposed uh Hail Road MPUD, which you've seen on that part that's squared out and has the other part of the lake. Um I've lived there for over two decades with my husband, Sonny Bishop. I raised my family there. We founded the Rosebud Continuance Sustainability Center on site to promote sustainability education and to repair
and rewild the land, removing the invasives and replacing them with native plants that create a living landscape. I own close to half of Lake Rosebud, the other portion mostly shared by the applicant. I'm also a member of Hale Know Coalition, the community group composed of residents who live on and close to Hale Road and will be impacted. Yeah. I run a construction company and I'm not opposed to development. However, I believe in putting the right development in of the right size in the right place. Uh first for the context and answer to you, Rosebud Contain Rosebud Continuum
Sustainability Education Center is a 501 C three. With a um a variance for a school. Um we don't have a s facility for a school. We're more like an outdoor education. We do you know, uh outdoor school type of thing. Um we invite people from everywhere. Uh so anyway, it's like uh we have Uh bees, bats, bird houses, alternative energy sources, sustainable agricultural, including hydroponic and aquaponic. We
use the natural spring lake on the property to use some of our growing native plants down by the lake. We have native plant demonstration gardens and areas for the high-energy efficiency projects, all used for For lectures, classes, research, and other educational purposes. The continued water quality of Lake Rosebud, which I'll explain, Lake Placy was the name of the original owner of the property, and over time when they started this project, they were calling it the no-name lake, and we through time have started just calling it Lake Rosebud.
So that's that's where the the variance comes in there. Um it's extremely important for our lake to to function correctly and provide uh Uh for us to do what we're doing. This relates to the criteria for the MPUD rezoning for a 2.2 F, the adequacy of the existing services serving the proposed development. The next I observations is the hail road safety, and those are what you've passed out there. I don't know if you've got them or not. So the first one is From a car just uh this
was a year ago. A car going down in front of our house which lost control. The second one is shows the uh the power pole that snapped off at the base, showing just how hard and he hit. Um this is the car. He had this thing on the front that allowed him, I think, to keep from getting seriously injured. And the last part is just a um something off of a Twitter or Instagram where the actual the applicant, the owner of the property that's applicant is actually on here complaining about once again the power's
out. Once again there's a wreck in front of our house and asking for help on that, which just goes to show you that even the person who lived there knows that this this is an issue. Um the other one, oh good yeah. The other one is showing another one in front of the house that was a little bit more serious. You can see what it did to our front entryway, completely destroyed it. Um so basically, since I lost the time, I don't know how we got stopped in time. Um Anyway, the traffic consultant, I'm the one who paid for it. I um that's
one of the issues that I want to bring up. It probably doesn't help with Lake Rosebud, but I do hope that y'all will please verify that the documents being turned in by the developer are in fact accurate, so I don't have to. These things we've tried to get with the Planning Commission forever. Um I've paid every single time that he readjusted that was because we found out that it Was inadequate. Um, I just want before y'all make any decisions, I do think that these things need to be thought through completely, 100%, before you make these decisions.
I fought against a gas station on the opposite corner of Hale and Collier three separate times because it was zoned incorrectly, and people keep coming back trying to build that gas station, which cannot go there because of the wetland issue. And yet again, three times. the cit the citizens have to pay for that. So I have a lot more I'd like to say, but unfortunately I don't have time.
You paid for the traffic engineer. I paid
for the traffic engineer. That's Mr.
Rourke. Mr. Rourke, correct? Okay.
I paid for him. And if you want to know why he's not here today, because there's only but I mean I have to pay for that.
Let me ask the question.
Yes sir.
If Mr. Rourke is satisfied with Mr. Razor's conclusions and the amounts that are going to be contributed towards substandard road mitigation. Does that change your position on whether or not this development should be approved today?
No, there's a lot of reasons that need to be taken into account, but that is one of the major issues. And regarding the one when they came up with the
Well it's only one issue, there's multiple issues.
There's multiple issues. Well, the flooding issues, which I'm sure you I don't have time to go into it, but some other people will. Um but I will say that um Mr. Rourke had the Original quote back when they said thought how much it would cost to improve the road at some point, and it
was
very inadequate. Um, I just you know, I know you don't care about me, but um Bell Lake cost six point three million dollars to bring to standard, three point two million dollars for Hale Road, which is far worse. Seems like a really cheap price, and I like I always tell people at work in the construction. industry. If you can do it for that, you should do it now.
Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.
Okay, uh Denise, who was next on the five minute List.
So it's up to you in terms of do you wanna take a WebEx participant who's been granted five minutes or um participants who are here who have been granted five minutes. Let's take people that are here. All right. So let's go with Deborah Martinez.
And we're gonna bring up her video in a second. Yeah,
Deborah Why you're coming up and uh this goes for people speaking in After her as well. Just please try w we've already heard once. We don't want to I mean we don't need to hear the same thing over and over again. Try to bring something new when you come to the podium, please.
cut this down to five minutes. Now you want to make the change.
No, I didn't say that.
And a copy of uh These tools.
Motion to accept into record.
Second motion on receive and file seconded All in favor?
Aye.
Aye. Opposed? Motion carries.
And if you would give us a few seconds because I believe your video has audio, is that correct? Or it doesn't have audio. It doesn't have audio. Okay, that makes a big difference. Shouldn't have audio. Okay, thank you.
I'm not a techie, so
I'm
not sure.
Okay. No, that's fine. I just wanted to make sure that one thing doesn't go over the other. Thank you. Thank you.
Okay, we're ready to go. So good afternoon. My name is Deborah Martinez. I live at [address removed]. I'm on the property that abuts the Let's see. The north side of the property, the little where the lake is, okay? How many trips a day do you think a substandard road should take? Well, I don't think the road is safe now, and you're gonna add over a thousand trips a day to an unsafe road.
If you can see the video, I don't know if you all can, but you'll see that there's polls There are uh seventeen utility poles within sixteen feet off the road. Some of them and there's pictures of it, are only a few inches off the road, maybe two or three. Many sections of the road do not have any proper shoulders. There is no breakdown place on Hill Road. You either go on the road or on the ditch and in the water. Many
residents have to back out of their driveway now onto Hale Road. The road with is substandard. You've already heard that. Recently all truck traffic that was going down Bell Lake, which was improved to make it a standard road, has been banned from going down Bell Lake. So guess where they come through now? Our substandard hail road. That's where the truff truck traffic is now going. We purchased the property
on January tw thirty first of two thousand eight. The property was originally owned by Beezer Homes. To be used as an ingress and an egress from the subdivision directly behind our home, which is a section of Dupree Lakes. The county at that time denied their request for an ingress and egress on Hill Road. Due to the s substandard they said Hale Road was substandard, dangerous
road, and could not support any additional traffic. So what has changed? If it if it wasn't safe in two thousand seven. How can you add over 1,000 additional homes now, uh 1,000 additional vehicles on that road now? What's changed since 2007? They didn't allow Bezer. Hale Road has become a heavily used shortcut. The accidents are ridiculous on
that road. I can speak to a few that have involved my family. Traffic planning decided they were going to put a passing zone. and point for point three miles to just west of my property to just east of Rosebud Consortium. a passing zone on a thirty mile, an hour, insufficient substandard road. I called the county and they told
me people had a right to pass on that road. Shortly after that my son was involved in an accident turning on to our property where someone behind him decided they didn't want to wait and were going to pass him And ended up in the ditch. He hit the car and the ditch the car literally flipped over and went upside down in the ditch. that was personal.
I won't even get into telling you what they told me. that my son should have been ticket. Of course F H P started laughing at that when I questioned them. My niece and her family were driving south on Collier. A young lady, I know it's on Collier, but she was taking a shortcut. The young lady decided to take a shortcut down Hill Road. cut in front of my niece, sent all four of them to the hospital by ambulance. because of trying to take a shortcut on Hale Road. They're still recovering
from that accident, and my little four-year-old and seven-year-old nieces are still having nightmares. My son and grandson have pulled vehicles out of the ditch continuously. A lady skidded recently directly in front of my home and went into the ditch and hit the mailbox because there was no shoulder. The first week of Aug August was especially active. We had three Three, multi-car accidents and one single car accident. One accident occurred when the she it
was rear-ended, one car was rear-ended by another because in front of the other car a bicycle had to swerve to avoid a pole and the wet roads and swerved in front of the vehicles on the road.
I want to talk a little bit about the fifteen or so homes being built. on the property which I'm told now is twelve homes. Right next to my property. That's a flooding that you can see some of my pictures that I have on my property now. The gentleman that sits in here now that they said he didn't say this, told me they would bring in when I questioned him. about this. They said we'll bring in twelve or fifteen feet of fill. on that property 'cause I told him it's
it's a swamp. And he he said, can I finish my statement? He he had told me, Don't worry, we'll slope it off so it won't go and flood your property anymore. So where is it gonna go? The road, the lake? If you watch this video you can see I'm not sure if this was three or five minutes, but Um Yeah that was set at five.
So
y
does Do your best to wrap it up.
Okay. I'm not opposed to development, the right kind of development in the right area. Hell Road is substandard. It has no shoulders. It has no place to stop. Uh the police officers when they stop cars they have to stop them. They stand on the roadways. It's unsafe. And I would like to point out one thing because it directly affects me. The infrastructure. Is not here. Especially in schools. Every school in Hill
in Pasco County, every school has portables. My granddaughter was in one of those portables. It's out in the open. There is no security. But let's forget. about that for now. Let's forget about the shootings that occur when there's no security. Let's think about every time it's raining and thundering and storming. She has to run from that portable to go to the bathroom, to go to art class, to go to lunch, to go to the library, to go to all these places. That's my granddaughter, my elementary
school granddaughter, but there's hundreds and thousands of kids in this community that are facing the same thing. Every school has portables, yet you keep continuing to agree to these large developments all over, adding people with no infrastructures. Your sheriffs are lacking, your fire departments lacking, almost fit a hundred percent deficit on each of them. So you need to start thinking about that first.
Thank you so much.
Do we have another Mr. Chair? Yes, the next person will be that's been granted five minutes and has a PowerPoint presentation is Valerie Van Strander.
Yeah.
My name is Valerie Van Stronder. I live on [address removed].
And I'm a member of the Hell No Coalition. I live on Hale Road near Deadman's Curve. Over the last seven years I've witnessed numerous crashes on hail. One SUV plummeted into the canal upside down and had to be retrieved with a crane. Drivers often lose control when the roads are slick and wind up in the ditch. Some drivers smack into power poles. One pole snapped like a twig. I have provided photos for many of these crashes, but there are far more. I could go on about safety concerns on hail for hours, but I'd like to talk about infrastructure. I used to work at Conerton Elementary, which is the district where I live, though it's nearly seven miles
away, while Pineview is just under two. The reason for these boundaries is overcrowding. All the schools in our area have portables. Nobody wants their child to have to walk through the rain to switch classes, go to lunch, or to the bathroom. And unfortunately, we have to recognize the modern danger kids face in a portable during an active shooter situation. Due to shortages, we also have kids walking almost two miles to school in the rain, heat, and cold. In our area, that means sometimes through the woods without a sidewalk. The ditches on hail are impassable due to flooding, so these kids have to walk in the middle of the road. There's no equity for our kids compared to peers
in less crowded boundaries and districts. Now I'm not anti-development. I have developers, brokers, and attorneys in my immediate family who make a living from development here in Pasco. I respect what they do. I appreciate hospitals, roads, and good food. But I also appreciate a quick response time when I call 911. We have such a shortage of 911 operators, first responders, teachers, and bus drivers that they've considered calling in the National Guard. We can't even sustain our current population. Speaking of equity, this plan isn't consistent with our way of life. Most of us have large properties. Some are zoned for agriculture. We have chickens, goats, and
horses on this road. I live on half an acre. and my yard is one of the smallest on hail. There are no forty to fifty foot lots on hail. We have developments going up all around us, including under a mile from the proposed development. As an Army veteran, I appreciate Tunnels to Towers, but I feel for the Gold Star Moms that will have to send their kids to school on foot over a mile away because they have to work and we have no buses. We don't have the infrastructure to sustain this growth. Another important issue on Hale is flooding. Where I live, the water flows from Deerhound and moves west on Hale towards the canal, between King Lake and Bell
Lake. It has always been an issue in heavy rains. Cars are unable to see where my road where where my yard ends and the road begins. Within the last two years, one house was built two doors down, two gas stations were built on the west side of Bell Lake, and a rental neighborhood to the southeast. Raising the elevation has changed the flow of water and now goes through my yard on every side to reach the canal. Last year, this cars caused a large washout and loss of my property. Most recently, on September 16th, my home nearly flooded as the water encircled my house like a moat because the ditches couldn't handle the drainage. It's unnerving
to wade through ankle-deep water at your front door. Bring a paddleboard if you want to see it for yourself next time it rains. The overall impact comes back to the environment and the fact that this proposed development will affect the Cypress Creek watershed. I may not be an expert, but I am a native. I know this area well. I've spent countless hours in the Cypress Creek Preserve and the lakes in the area. I know as experts, at least some of you understand the importance of our specific environment to our water and natural resources, probably better than I do. Is this really what's best for us? Can we trust the Commission to
do what's best for us?
I grew up not far from where I live now on Hale Road, on what's called Bird Lake. Over on fifty four. We fought Uh Willow Bend, I believe is the neighborhood on the Other side of the lake, we fought that when Neil Van Dorsten wanted to build it when I was a kid. I remember my neighbors grouping together like this and saying, you can't do this, you can't do this, it's gonna damage our lake. Well the commission, you know, they made the the stuff that they have to do, I'm not an expert, and made it so that they wouldn't be able to have motorized boats on the lake. This
is like twenty years ago. My brother still lives on that lake. He's pouring tens of thousands of dollars into attorneys to try and get boats back off the lake because guess what? Years later, they bring the boats in. I don't want to see that happen. to Lake Rose, but I don't want to see that more damage happen to our watershed. And um Mr. Goldstein, you mentioned is that you yeah, Mr. Goldstein, you mentioned that um you need shoulders for like a breakdown lane. We don't have a breakdown lane, we don't have any shoulders. And I'm concerned about
what will happen when you say things about mitigating the road to to add these kind of improvements. My yard is on the road. My septic tank is on like right near the road where you saw. So if they decide they're going to widen the road where I live at the curve or something like that, what happens to me? What happens to my property? Ms. Terrapani talked about the l long term vision of Pasco. Does it only involve houses? Does it not leave any of the lakes? Does it not leave any of the wetland? Does it not leave any of the forests? Nothing? What about
the flooding?
Just because they didn't create the problem doesn't mean they have to make it worse.
Thank you.
Thank you for your service as well.
So the next person that has been granted time is online, it's Mr Rod Bream, and he's been granted five minutes.
So Mr. Brahm, would you be please provide your name and address for the record and whether you've been sworn and then you could start speaking. Thank you.
Yes, I I'm Roderick Brame. I I live at [address removed]. I have been sworn in. Uh I A Scientist, have a PhD in geosciences from Virginia Tech. uh and a master degree with a certification in geotechnical engineering from Radford University and a bachelor's degree in geology. So I am both a citizen, a business owner, and a and enough of an expert that I have like um Given coup positions in
court. Uh I've done sinkhole investigations and subsurface investigations to produce uh more than a hundred ports from Pasco and and Penillas Counties. So after a careful review of uh most available documents, reports, research, and physical inspection, I have concluded the following. The property and consideration of rezoning of agricultural land to residential subdivision is adjacent to and connects to the Cypress Creek crater. Billsboro
River watersheds. The water flows to the Cypress Creek well field, where it is removed by Hillsborough and Penellas and Pasco for municipal water supplies. Any disruption of this natural water system would be adverse and contrary to statutes that protect wetlands, lakes, rivers, and water quality. The goal of the planning committee should be to reduce and eliminate any adverse changes to the land that would cause any adverse impact to our natural systems, especially water supplies. There
are numerous ways that the suggested subdivision plans do not take into consideration the statutes as written by your peers, such as getting any variance or special exceptions for density. proximity to watersheds, flooding impact, amount of change required to mediate altered drainage, flooding caused by a higher amplitude runoff, and reduction of groundwater infiltration. Critical water resources that Pasco County is responsible for maintaining. Protecting and improving, not
degrading. Beyond those there is traffic. Of course everybody has spoken about the traffic. It's pretty clear.
Much of the property in question is so close to the water table that several times a year the majority is saturated. Railroad is already dangerous and below any standards for safe driving and there is no consideration for pedestrians. Connection for natural areas that support wildlife and natural areas for water recharge in the aquifer. Uh what?
We'll never we'll never we'll be lost forever if subdivision is approved.
It would
be amazing if someone would consider the value of the natural systems and protect the remaining lands that are so important to our water resources. Please be proactive. Make a part. Preserve a badly needed nature center, something that will benefit the residents for Pasco County and Pinellas Counties for the future. As a geoscientist My concerns are But a subdivision will damage the environment by disrupting the natural drainage and return. Ship property as a lake
that has been ported on maps far back as the eighteen sixties. The cost to maintain the integrity of the lake. The unattainable. The runoff from said property flows downhill, under Hale Road, into the lake, exiting northward into a stream. Northeast under Elliott Parkway and into the Welt. Hasco County Water Team has addressed this issue as far back as 2005. Their reports and plans for mitigation and sustainability recommend protecting
the land that provides recharge as opposed to reducing infiltration, especially in the well-filled regions. Disruption of the subdivision will destroy natural habitats. Residents of the subdivisions will pollute the water and and re uh recharge the aquifer for the Cypress Creek watershed with pesticides, herbicides, cleansing chemicals, fertilizers. Covering up the land with asphalt sidewalks and homes reduces the infiltration of the water into the water table. Impermeable
surfaces and concrete drainage controls speed water into the streams causing higher amplitude flooding on the road that already has floods and reduces local infiltration. Property is part of and adjacent to some of the last natural areas surrounding the whale field and and constituents one of the largest natural areas left in Land O' Lakes for which to collect uncontaminated and less contaminated water for the aquifer it depends on. So When you see the pictures of the of
the land next to the lake where the somebody's gonna build a house and they say we're gonna put twelve feet of fill in there, like that violates the statutes of not disrupting natural flow of water. So my question really to the board is I don't I don't think you're required to um rezone this. Subdivision. We should consider the value. keeping it as agricultural and benefiting Pasco County in the long run.
Okay. Thank you, sir.
Yeah.
Now we're under the is that all the extra time people?
Do you want me to just go down the list of those who have signed in? Sure. Okay. So the next person signed up to speak is Mr. Richard Eddie Valdez, and that will be followed by Mr. Daniel Caro.
Yeah, if you're gonna be next if you can find a seat up here closer to the front, that'd be Great help.
And if you want me to mention the following person, that's gonna be Mr. Gerald Flatt.
Ready?
My name is uh uh Richard Eddie Valdez. Uh I live at uh [address removed]. Um I've been sworn in. The um the thing that I'm gonna make a little different for you guys is maybe a little bit or orthodox. But uh I serve on the uh
H O A board of uh
That's orbit H O A board. of uh Sable Ridge. And uh I have uh s cl close close information that was given to me by some of the sheriffs. And um Twenty years ago. I came to this community. From the inner city of Tampa that which I was born and raised. And uh I can tell you the common knowledge is Every time you put a development or
a commercial development somewhere in the com in the area It increases crime. It's common knowledge. It brings in more people. More more opportunities for c for crime within the area. And the uh You know, yeah. The uh We have a report here. For Matthew McCullum back in April. That uh Sheriff Darko presented to the board Uh say
saying that There's only one point zero six deputies per thousand people. That is amazing to me. With that which he he was asking for four hundred more deputies. and which he has never gotten. As far as I know, he has never gotten that. Um the other thing was is that he was that between Polk and
Pasco
They have uh Compared to forty seven thousand per year.
Pasco and pa and Polk County are getting fifty-two thousand a year. Did I go over? No, you have one more minute. Okay. So what I'm saying here is the the the potential of response time for any crimes and when you report this, when you report these crimes You have you have no allocations. For A per uh for more deputies. to serve the area when you put in more housing and more commercial areas. Whether
you bet where you whether you approve it for residential and whether you approve it for for commercial, you still have a guy the coverage that we need for law enforcements to have. And you leave the burden So the community To protect our com uh to protect our property and our and our uh And our families. I think um I think I covered fire departments the same way. Same way, it was unacceptable for in back in February, January
to February, some of the response times. were un w were like three hours before they got to an emergency when they call the EMS em an emergencies. So the allocations should be there. If K B Holmes is ready to uh bring up some money Maybe we need to bring up some money.
To our law enforcement. for some uh additional staffing. Okay. Thank you, sir.
Mr. Carrow, we have a few things from you. We've got a site plan, pictures. Um so I'm not sure which item you want us to show first. At PowerPoint with those cruise that's fine. Is this okay? That's further. Okay. Is
one of those
Mm. It is, the circle.
Like the time.
Mm-hmm.
Okay, great. Thank you.
Sorry that we pushed you off to another thing.
No, that's fine. Thank you. Yeah, hi, my name is Dan Carroll. I reside at [address removed], directly adjacent to the subject property on the South Perimeter. I have been sworn. Uh greetings, Planning Development Board members, and key constituents. I'm going to detail significant key concerns that I have in addition to 17 others that couldn't be here today. Uh this has been entered into record on previous email that I've sent. I'm gonna bypass a lot of the hail road issues. I think they've been succinctly identified as far as the water issues. If you could go to the next slide, please. I've
seen many pictures of the subject property, many in the county's packet, and many beautiful color pictures that the KB Homes has sent out and some displayed today. What I find most intriguing is that none of the pictures that I've seen overlay the home plan on top of the land parcel so you can actually see the impact of such development. This picture clearly displays it can you zoom in on that just a little bit by chance? This picture clearly disp depicts the gross impact of a high-density subdivision on that limited parcel, directly in violation of one of the paramount requirements of the MPUD. The Pasco
County Florida Development Code 522.4, the development standards, paragraph A, Section 1, the compatibility of use, I'm sure you're all familiar. It states in part that land uses near the Periffia, the MPUD, shall be planned as to be compatible with neighboring areas. There's no no buffer of any kind will create harmony or compatibility with the adjacent properties with such disparaging lot sizes, home sizes, some two story, the forty and fifty foot wide lots, and with merely a ten foot rear setback. Those concerns cannot be mitigated with the high density plan. Home values,
who's gonna stroke a check for the likely tens of thousands of dollars of diminished home value for those directly adjacent? KB Homes, the county? Nobody is. KB Homes in a public hearing committed to a barrier of some sort, but no wall guarantee, but neither of which will provide adequate separation to maintain adequate privacy which sets minimal separation. Let's look at the overlay again. My neighbors uh direct closest to Collier, they now have a lake right in their backyard. Uh the neighbor two doors down from me right on the corner, and the pointer's not working, uh they have six new neighbors that are adjacent to their backyard.
six, all courtesy of KB Homes and the High Density Development. As you travel down the entire perimeter of uh Sable Ridge, uh the three roads that directly adjacent to it to the south, Uh as stated earlier, one of the KB Home's representatives said there's only a a few uh homes that uh that a butt to that. Actually I did the math. There's twenty two on the Sable Ridge side and thirty-four on the KB Home side. That was under oath, by the way. That's a difference of twelve, not two or three. KB Holmes and the realtor uh marketing this property think they have
the vote in the bag. Uh and and uh the realtor in fact has uh been marketing, maybe they still are, the 10-acre parcel they've held on on the corner as and they've marketed that as commercial. Uh likely expecting that this will sell right through as well as that. Well, it's your time to prove them wrong. It's your time to prove they have the best interest of the county and the citizens in mind. It's an easy vote. Perhaps if the property development was not high density, truly in harmony with the adjacent properties, it'd be less of an issue, but it's not. It's high density. Small lots, 10-foot rear line setbacks, utterly destroying adjacent property value
and exacerbating home and roadway flooding concerns, destroying privacy along with nearby concerns of pedestrian and vehicular traffic. It's already been noted. This high-density plan is not the right plan to develop the property in the heart of Pasco County. The request to approve this plan and voting change must absolutely be denied. Thank you for your time and attention.
Thank you.
Mr. Gerald Flatt would be next and after that would be Emery Bragg and Joyce Bragg.
My name is Gerald Flatt and I live at uh [address removed]. I own the eight and a half acres that's adjacent to the subject property. I'm just to the west of of the property. I'm also on the south side of Hale Road and they're gonna have part of the project on the north side. Uh I don't have a problem with the builder. I don't have a problem with the owners.
Uh I've met them. Matter of fact, I bought fourteen acres from Miss Franzel, who was the original owner. Her granddaughter now I guess is in charge of the trust and proceeding w with the uh project. With K B Holmes. So I I just have a concern. I'm not gonna repeat a lot of the things that have been said, though I agree with a lot of them. Safety is the biggest thing that I'm worried about. I don't know if y'all have ever driven
on Hale Road or not. If you haven't, Before you make your decision, I'd suggest that you do that. Because pictures just don't do it justice. You need to drive that road and see how narrow it is. And when you have a car approaching from the other direction, one of you's gonna be on the white line or off of the the pavement. Uh and that's where you see the in the pictures, the ruts and everything else. It's not safe. And if they're gonna mitigate
that and make it to where it is safe, they're gonna have to widen that road. They can't just take a a little distance and correct it. There's five curves on that road. And and they're all dangerous. Uh I've seen four accidents in my front of my property since I've since I've been there. So I moved to Pasco County because I wanted to get away from the congestion in Hillsborough County. I talked to people
in Pasco County and I met with uh the commissioners, I met with different ones, and I located on Hill Road because Of the type of property that it was, and they're spacious. Pasco County's logo says Open Spaces, Vibrant Places. Uh you're gonna have to change that l uh slogan if you keep just packing on and packing
everyone in that immediate area. Pasco County is a big and large county. We don't have to put it all there in one place. Thank you.
Good afternoon. I'm Emory Bragg, residing at [address removed]. I was sworn in.
That's about a quarter mile from Forty One. Hail Road is a substandard road which has narrow width and strong curves, ditches. Lake canals, mailboxes just a few feet from the road. Fences and power poles within a few feet. Yeah. Drivers have enough to watch out for. than to add more traffic. This is not smart. On july sixteenth of this year motorists knocked down one hundred and sixty seven feet of my My fence.
It's no longer good. I'm still waiting to have it repaired. And uh after Hitting the pole it finally stopped by crashing into my next door neighbor's. He took out quite a bit. If you need Florida Highway Incident Number, I have it. I see bringing in this many of new dwellings will destroy the ambient ambience we have moved here for. Three more poles were just added near the accident site and are and are
very close within two feet. I gave pictures, was that shown?
Well the the New Circle K right there at Forty One in Hale Road, they just had their fence clobbered. So that's about four houses just right next door to me that has had their fences taken out. It's not a safe road. First home from 41 on South Side has been hit many times. Yes. That's another one. I believe if allowing this kind of project in established neighborhoods will be the demise of the small town neighborhood.
Thank you.
Many of the school buses stationed off of call your I'm sorry, I'm Joyce Bragg, [address removed]. Many of the school buses stationed off of Collier take ha Hale Road to get to Forty One to continue their routes. There are four bus stops on Hill Road. Children stand at what little bit of land there is for their bus. One of the bus stops is located in one of the most dangerous parts of the road, Hale and Deerhound. How many of you
would be comfortable with your child or grandchild standing on that road? They ride the bus. So I guess they're the lucky ones. But Pine View Middle School is one point nine miles from Hill Road. And Pasco County is no longer providing bus service to anyone who lives less than two miles from a road. From a school. They must now walk or ride their bikes down Hill Road almost two miles to school and be there by eight twenty.
So at the height of traffic, these kids are walking or biking on this road. They do this in the dark in the morning.
The Let Us Do Good Village, which will have 109 new homes, is currently being developed on Parkway, which is the same road as Collier. The traffic from this development will add to the congestion on Collier Parkway and to some extent on Hill Road. A number of cars will be cutting through Hill Road to Forty One in order to avoid long lines of cars during turning off of Collier on to fifty four. I doubt if this future traffic
was included in the count that KB Holmes is using to arrive at the number of houses they consider safe for Hill Road. It is interesting to note that in Article Dated June fifteenth, twenty twenty one, the Pasco Planning Commission had expressed misgivings about the compatibility of the village and had originally recommended denial of that application. After the Tunnel to Towers Foundation made additional concessions,
the development was approved. The land development code recently changed and the project's mitigation requirements current re currently reflect the updated code. For projects that have impact to collector roadways, the required mitigation shall be the fair share of improvements. Within Razor's Engineering, most recent report, they have noted that their clients' portion of the improvements of
the road from Project to Collier Parkway would only be 11.5% of the total cost. How do you go from a hundred percent to eleven point five percent? As a taxpayer, I am very concerned about that drastic reduction. In the document, it was indicated that the road mitigation would be required from project access to Collier Parkaway. Why wasn't mitigation required from US 41
to call your parkway? there was no justification of not having mitigation required for the entire Hale Road segment segment. It appears that a no mitigation requirement for the portion of Hill Road had somehow been pre agreed to by the county. Thank you.
Thank you.
Next set of speakers will be Tom Carr, Pam Carr, and followed by Richard Candelora.
Okay. Thank you, Mr. Candelora.
Mr. Candelora, we have a few things that you would like to show. Do you want us to start with the PowerPoint that you submitted? Or it it might be a PDF actually, please forgive. First
photograph, please.
Yes, sir. Can you
bring it up?
Not that one, the other one, please.
Yes, sir.
Thank you, Penny. I'm Dick Candelora and I have been Sworn. For the last 15 years I've lived on Pineywood Loop, which intersects Hale Road near State Road 41. Hale Road is the only access for the 27 homes on Pineywood. I use Hale every day. The picture on the screen shows the intersection. Forty one is on the left, Hell is a horizontal road in the middle. Pineywood is the road above Hale and you can see they intersect at a very
severe angle. And the lower left is a circle K. Uh can I have the second picture please, Penny? Thank you. as the picture shows, coming from Collier, Hale Road has a long straight stretch and then there's a bend just before it gets to Pinewood. because of the bend in the road and the trees and bushes that you can see along Hill, A driver on hail can't see a car coming out of Pinewood. Until he rounds the bend. And those cars come
fast. A traffic study commissioned by Mr. Venicuti found that eighty-five percent of the cars average over forty-seven miles per hour. Even if they slow down, they're coming around that bend at twenty five miles an hour at least. And that's too fast. The Florida D. O. T. has published a manual on street design, commonly called The Florida Green Book, which has a safe stopping distance table. For a car going twenty-five miles per hour, it's a hundred
and fifty-five feet. For a car going twenty miles an hour, it's a hundred and fifteen feet. We measured the distance from the beginning of the bend To tiny wood, it's seventy six feet. So if you're on Pineywood and you want to turn left onto Hell, it's You can't see a car coming on hill because Because of the bend. And you have a very severe turn to make so you can't go fast. And you've got to worry about the cars coming from 41 and from Circle K. If you pick the wrong
time to turn left, you're gonna get hit because that car coming downhill can't stop in seventy-six feet. Section 4021E of the Land Development Code lists the factors to consider when evaluating a request for increased density. Number six asks whether the proposed change will affect traffic safety. The answer is absolutely yes. At a thousand trips a day, this project will create three hundred and sixty-five thousand opportunities
a year for a dangerous intersection to cause somebody to be seriously injured. Or worse. Both the Comm Plan and the LDC say the adequacy of roadways must be considered when determining the timing of new development. Right now, Hale Road can't handle this project. And the act of depositing $281,000 in the bank isn't going to magically change the substandard condition or make the road safe. You should deny this rezoning or at least defer
it until after all of Hale Road has been brought up to County Road standards. Thank you.
And do can
I put
in these two
uh pictures? Then we're not going to be able to do that.
Those are the ones that we showed up there? Yeah. That's correct. So they're already I mean they're already part of the file. Oh okay. Thank you. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman Mariano signed up to speak as if she's physically here, but she's also on WebEx. So can I get a clarification, Julia Bartonick?
She's signed in but she's also on WebEx right now.
So I'm glad you can't really look at it. I'm glad that you felt uncomfortable. That was a healthy reaction. There's nothing wrong with you. You are not a defective person. Okay. You are not
defective.
We'll
mute her.
Okay. So do you want to continue with the people who are here? All right, very quickly.
Um okay, so we've got April Wakefield. Okay. Christy Zimmer. Betty Candelora. And Mary I'm very sorry, Coombs, I think it says.
Okay, go ahead,
Kristy. Sure.
I'm Christy Zimmer and I have been sworn in. Good afternoon. Have you ever driven down Hale Road? Any of you? Yes. Recently? Yes. Okay, good. You know what we're dealing with. I'm not against the development. I am all for responsible and sustainable growth. If I were otherwise, I would put myself out of business as a real estate broker. This project fails to perform to those standards based on conflicting current land use. Use for the surrounding area zoning. The current surrounding area is agricultural, and the
homes in that area are the same. Um
Laga uh uh Lago Del Rey, I think it is. Those are lots are eighty by one thirty and there's only thirty-nine lots there. Branch Ranch is sixteen lots and 112 by 196. This project is not conducive with the newer development that has been created there. There is no appropriate infrastructure in place, nor being required by the developer. The negative impact to the surrounding area, the current lack of appropriate stormwater drainage, the surrounding schools, law enforcement, and emergency services is incomprehensible.
The developers always say, if you don't let us have our way, we will sue you. But let us keep in mind that this project fails to meet the 2040 Long Range Transportation Plan. Yeah. It is not a compliance with the future road improvements in that there are no planned improvements for Hale Road in the 2040 LRTP. I sit on the Citizen Advisory Committee for the Metropolitan Planning Organization for over 20 years, and I am very familiar with the fact that there are no planned improvements for Hale Road
through the year 2040. So When they say they're going to pay their proportionate share, it means absolutely nothing because in accordance with the future road improvements, there are no road improvements planned for Hale Road all the way through the year 2040. That way they'll get their money back after the 15 years, just like we said. This plan was adopted by your MPO board in December of 2020. It is a depository of all roadway improvements at both is what is needed in transportation as well as what is cost affordable. Hale Road didn't meet the cut.
It clearly shows Hale Road to remain as a two-lane road with no roadway improvements planned. If you approve the rezoning, you are going against the approved plan. That does that set you up for liability? The project is engrossed by Violation of the 24 LRTP as well as intensely in conflicts adversely with the surrounding area and zoning. I and I gotta tell you, I had the opportunity to sit in on the round table meetings yesterday. The biggest problem that they're having. Sixteen thousand eight hundred and fifty two total permits issued last
month. You just approved five hundred and eighty-six more housing units today. They can't keep up. Their staff, they are so grossly understaffed, they're having to hire outside resources to help them with all these plan reviews. Put a hold on it for a minute. Let them catch up. You're the the employees are leaving and going to work for the developers because they can make more money. We've got to find some balance, guys. Utilize your opportunity right here, right now, and say, let's put a hold on this for a little bit. Doesn't mean
they can't come back later and do something. But for right now, let's catch up on our own problems that we have right now in the county. We are understaffed. You guys know it. The planning department knows it, they're feeling it, and this isn't helping. Thank you for your consideration. So so I just
want yeah, I just want to clarify something that Ms. Simmer said because it's not totally accurate. Not every roadway improvement that the county makes is in the LRTP or the CIP. Those are major capacity improvements. So for example The widening of Hale Boulevard, I would agree with you. If we were widening to four lanes That would absolutely be in the LRTP and the CIP. But the types of improvements that Margaret Smith mentioned earlier were it's a lighting improvement or Those are
substantial improvements for what's needed out there.
I understand that, but I I don't want you to think that every single improvement that the county you made it sound like If Margaret Smith does these improvements that you talked about, that would be inconsistent with the LRTP. Those types of improvements that she talked about earlier would not be in R L Rose improvements
will not be a positive impact for the destruction that that community will create.
Well I'm not sure four lane in the road is either. Okay, but but my point is is that's
my point. It's not a conducive area.
And it may not be, but I but I d d wanna be clear with you that not every single improvement the county does has to be in the LRTP or has to be in the C. Okay. but the types of improvements that Ms. Smith Talked about earlier. Absolutely do not need to be in the L R T P.
But no, those ru you're absolutely right. Those kinds of improvements are not in the LRTP. But those types of improvements are not what is going to be helpful for that substandard road. And you know as well as I do how badly substandard that is. It's not even remotely.
I understand that comment. But
That's not enough.
But I don't agree with your statement that by making those improvements that's somehow inconsistent with the L R T P
Those improvements have nothing to do with the LRTP. This impacted community to that road is everything to do with the fact there are no improved no plans for improvement for Hale Road. For twenty forty, so no matter how much money they put in there, we're still gonna have lights on a substandard road.
Okay. I just wanted to be clear with you that not every improvement to a substandard road has to be a little bit more than the right-of-way.
Improving the road it will be six point five million to improve Bell Lake Road to what it is now and it's still a two-lane road. is n is what it cost and yet they're saying three million to improve Bell Lake Road, to create a standard road. That's not in the LRTP and that's not a real cost. We just paid the six point three million for Bell Lake Road. which is the adjacent road to the south, And and those improvements have created flooding in areas that have never seen flooding in twenty
years either. So we've got a bigger problem than just the development. We've got to get our infrastructure in line. First and foremost, before we do any more housing, I didn't even get a chance to go in with the Long range transportation or the uh Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council telling you that we have 150,000 jobs that need to be created before we create any further housing.
To be clear, you have already addressed my comment and question. I wasn't intending to bring you back up here to do a whole new speech.
Well, thank you for the opportunity.
Thank you.
May third was the Board of County Commissioners that you guys should go back and listen to what the Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council said. Who's next, please? I believe
she's right here. Mm-hmm.
So that should this should be Ms. Betty Candelora and uh Mary Coombs and then after that Lisa Moretti. Thank you.
I'm Betty Candelora, [address removed]. My street intersects Hale Road. FLU one point ten point five of the Comp Plan says a property owner is not entitled to the most potentially dense or intense zoning classification within in a land use designation. rather a number of factors must be evaluated to determine whether the proposed project is appropriate
for the parcel. And FLU 1.10.1 lists those factors. They include existing uses of land and existing development patterns and approved development in the area. This project should be rejected because the proposed lot widths of 40 to 50 feet are much smaller than the lot widths in the existing developments that have been approved along Hale Road. I reviewed the map on
the property appraiser's website and I counted eight subdivisions that have been pr approved along Hale Road. Lago Del Rey has 40 lots, all 80 feet wide or wider. Bell Lake Vista 2, 35 lots, all at least 90 feet wide. Bell Lake Vista 1, 21 lots, all 80 or more feet wide. Alsace, 20 lots, all at least 80 feet wide. Branch Ranch, 16 lots, all more than 100 feet wide.
Tamney Lane, nine lots, all greater than a hundred feet. King Lake Vista, ten lots, all over a hundred feet. King Lake Estates six lots, all one hundred or more feet wide. So this shows that there is an existing pattern of development for the area along Hale Road. and that is, lots at least eighty feet wide. The proposed 40 and 50 foot-wide lots are barely half that size. They
are inconsistent with the approved development pattern along Hale Road and therefore conflict with the review criteria in the Land Development Code. requiring wider and therefore fewer lots is particularly critical since Hale Road is a substandard two-lane roadway which is already heavily trafficked and dangerous. FLU 1.10.1 also says you should not let development
get ahead of the infrastructure. Approving 109 new housing units would do that. Thank you.
I have I have a folder that I made for each of you. Can I bring it up?
What's in in it? it?
Uh Mary Coons.
What what's in the folder though? Uh
it regards um Regards
Is it pictures? Is it a good
thing?
Okay. Is is it just your speech that you're gonna type version of your speech? Yeah. Okay.
Okay.
Motion to accept
and and pictures.
Okay. Okay. Motion to receive and file. Just trying to get an idea of what's in there. That's all. Thank you. You can just give 'em to or give one to the clerk and then vote. There you go.
You got it, huh? Thank you.
I hi, Mr. Chairman, Commissioners. I'm Mary Coons. I live at [address removed] and that's in Sable Ridge. Uh Sable Ridge is the subdivision that is adjacent to the proposed Hell Road Home. I testify for myself and a number of my neighbors who've taken off twice to testify at this meeting, but they couldn't make it today. I submit for you uh for you the record a
copy of the presentation with pictures and documentation in the green folder for you to peruse at your convenience. In a nutshell, infrastructure we now have is broken. And people are angry. Sable Ridge has expanding road depressions, repeated open holes in roads and easements, and burst and eating leaking underground pipes. These are safety issues. One example is when my neighbor's foot went through a pavement while playing football.
The county fixed the street in 2019 and in July this year a hole in the road opened up again in the same location. Just on my street alone there are five places w um where road crews have had to come out and repair underground pipes. Pascous. County stormwater division said our entire street needs to have piping replaced. We're on the south side of Hill Road, and just the slight elevation
of streets and their swales are causing flooding, soil erosion, and staining water in yards, largely due to dis displaced water. With our current flooding and drainage problems, where is the overflow water from the new construction going to go? And who takes responsibility if the model they used causes lake pollution or even more flooding and erosion in this area. Traffic's also an issue as
most streets in Sable Ridge only have one exit and that's on DeCollier Parkway. So with the expected amount of traffic that's proposed from the high density homes on Hill Road, trying to safely exit our subdivision on DeCollier will be a real challenge. Another failure of the infrastructure was recently addressed by Megan Harding. She's a school board member, who said our school system is in a crisis due to bus driver shortages and warned, quote,
this is a huge safety issue. I personally live next door to a bus driver who quit mid-year because of all the overtime Rs he was expected to work. Another issue is the availability and cost of reclaimed water. When we claimed water is low, especially during a drought, lack of water pressure puts strains on everyone in a deed-restricted subdivision like us that has lawn maintenance requirements. So an increased usage
demands will have a negative impact on our property value. Because of the current infrastructure problems, we respectfully Submit that you denied the zoning request for Hill Road. Thank you, guys.
Hi, my name is Lisa Moretti. I've had the pleasure of speaking to many of you before. Mr. Moody, first time. Hi. Hi. Um, it's getting tiresome to come see you guys over and over and over and over and over and over and over again. I'm a resident of fifty-nine years of being able to be an actual caring human being. And at this point as a citizen stakeholder, I am far too familiar with the land use code than I should be. Uh there are two aspects of the future land use policy that uh jump out at me
immediately. Um flu 1.10.5 of the comprehensive plan says a property owner is not entitled to the most potentially dense or intense zoning classification within a land use designation. And Comp Plan flew One point one zero point one which is titled Compatibility Review unless the factors that they include existing uses of land, existing development patterns, and approved development within the area.
By compliance with the future land use policy, you should reject this project. Hale Road is a two-lane, no sidewalks, a lot of drainage ditches, power poles you've heard, you've seen, lots of big trees. It is a classic rural road. The residences are also rural. You have single family homes, little rancheritos, uh the smallest of which are generally like a quarter of an acre large. Ms. Tempiani. Ter I'm sorry, Ms. Terrapani, I'm sorry, mentioned compatibility. Uh
on the property appraisers website there are eight approved developments on Hale Road. Lago del Rey has 40 lots, at least a quarter of an acre apiece. The second largest is Bell Lake Vista 2, has 35 lots, none less than a third of an acre. Bell Lake Vista 1 has 21 lots, they're averaging three-tenths of an acre. Alsace has 20 lots, at least a quarter of an acre. Branch Ranch has sixteen lots, a half an acre or more, and the other
three developments all have fewer than ten lots, which average about four tenths of an acre apiece. So these are rural. This development is totally an aberration of compatibility.
The proposed project is 109 lots, over two and a half times as many of the largest approved development already there, and more than five times greater than the average approved development. In addition, the proposed lot sizes. Of forty five hundred or fifty five hundred square feet are a third the size of the average approved development. So you have a system, you have a pattern, an established pattern of development on Hill Road. And these lots don't meet that standard. So I encourage you that
this project should be denied. Thank you.
The following speakers, and please forgive if I pronounce mispronounce someone's name. Tracy Lowe's, Pamela Fugelsing, Dr. T. H. Colhane.
Okay. Um Dr. Colhane, T H Colhane.
Yes, thank you. And there's a video that I have? Hit on USB stick if it's not uh sometimes it's the only thing that's on USB stick.
So good afternoon. I'm Dr. Thomas Culhain, 4202 East Fowler Avenue, Tampa 33620, and I swore in. I'm a National Geographic Explorer and a professor at the University of South Florida with a PhD and master's in urban planning from UCLA and an honors BA from Harvard. And I request respectfully that you recommend denial of this land grab application for this last tiny refuge of wildlife, this last sanctuary of sanity in an increasingly
sprawl filled neighborhood. To say that it should be filled in just because it's the last green parcel is sounds contradictory to our goals as sustainabilitists. In fact, its small size and the fact that it's the last refuge is all the more reason to defend it. For the last six years at the Rosebud Continuum, I and my professional colleagues and our graduate students have conducted landscape research, habitat restoration, and wildlife surveys. We've worked hard on invasive species removal and the repatriation of Florida native
plants and wildlife. I've scuba dived Lake Rosebud to observe the alligators and fish therein, and watched and delighted with the sandhill crane families and gopher tortoises that are all over making their
Spending time at the Rose Bud Continuum, I can tell you that the public, our students, our many participating groups and organizations, visitors rely on the existing zoning and rural character of this neighboring property for what we're doing there. The Comprehensive Plan Objective 1.4 of the future land use element states development should, quote, ensure the long-term viability of residential neighborhoods by regulating future development and redevelopment to create compatibility with the surrounding land uses. Today's application I submit is incompatible with that and conflicts
with the county's purpose for the MPUD, which is, quote, to encourage innovations in residential and non-residential development, and to quote, provide for residential cluster options and incentives that are designed to protect the rural character of the county's rural areas, end quote. Now here the proposal is a swath, as we've heard, of densely built 40 to 50-foot lot homes, less than half the lot width required in current zoning, and covers at least 65 percent. Now we're hearing 75 percent of the land, roughly double what the current zoning allows. I've
worked on innovative urban design projects in Alabama, in Cairo, Egypt, and around the world, and I I'm presenting the the hail. It's two minutes and twenty four.
Yeah, one more minute.
Oh thank you. I'm presenting the Hale Road case at the Urban Health Institute in Valencia, Spain next month, showing how the Rosebud Sustainability Center is actually helping to meet the Living Building Challenge 4.0. Well, this proposal doesn't. On the world stage We know that we can be far more innovative than the current Hale proposal. Pasco County's comprehensive plan, Policy Future Lucidian Land Use 1.2.23 actually encourages the establishment of incentives for developers that incorporate green building principles into the design and implementation of the
project. But as of yet, our conversations with KB Holmes on green building techniques here have actually left us empty-handed. Considering the environmental features of the land, the potential for flooding, The density of KB Holmes's proposal that it's striving for cannot be achieved without harming its surroundings with negative spillover effects. Now please don't misunderstand We want this area to grow. But we want it to grow in the right way, in a healthy way that meets Pasco County's strict standards. In the my my final statement, in
the urban planning field, Pasco County has a great reputation for innovations. I moved here to Florida to be part of that as an urban planner. Please deny this proposal today and demand that out-of-town developers meet the county's strict and innovative standards. Thank you.
Thank you very
much.
Next speaker is Anus Colhane. Uh followed by Mary McKnight and Mike Delapena.
Uh good afternoon. I am Inas Kalheen. I have a sworn. Um I'm a master student of sustainable tourism at the University of USA, Florida, speaking on item ten, the hail colour development. For the past five years I've been working on an almost daily basis at the Rosebud Continuum Ecoscience Center, working with school kids and volunteers to remove invasive species and teach about Wildlife compatible development. I am
on the team using Matterport technology to scan the properties and identify threatened species and create models for the web portal to give international exposure to rosebud as an important bright spot for eco-tourism in Florida. This project threatens these goals. and degrades the potential for Pasco County to achieve its sustainable tourism goals and sustainable Development goals. I
would like to know how the development will keep their project from under undoing and undermining all of our work uh and hard work to preserve wildlife and restore our ecosystem. Thank you.
Thank you.
Yeah,
Mary?
Mike Delapena, followed by Michelle Dillard and Nathan Lafata.
I'd like to just submit this. I I wanted to make copies for you guys, but uh my machine just said no. So
you can give it to the clerk, she can circulate it to us. But he's not gonna get you not gonna get it back. Is that okay? No, you
can keep it. Okay.
I would I'm gonna
get motion to accept and to file. Second. Motion and a second, all in favor? Aye. Motion carries.
My name's Mike Della Penny. Um I've been sworn in. I live at [address removed]. Um
I'm kinda across the street. I'm the last house on Collier Parkway before Hale in Lake Page East. Lived there for thirty two years. I could tell you th there haven't been many improvements on Hale Road in the thirty two years I've been there and I don't expect any to be Happening not for two hundred and eighty one thousand dollars. Uh the county's not gonna do anything and I believe personally that, you know If I'm there if I'm not sure if you're not twenty forty that it ain't gonna happen then either. But That's
besides the point. The reality is is two things for me. Um Somewhere Maybe I'm wrong, correct me, you guys might know. Uh Collier Park was supposed to be widened. From Parkway
South. All the way up to Aaron Cutoff. Am I am I incorrect about that?
Um Some one of our transportation planners could probably answer that question better than I can.
We have several online that can answer.
This is Stacy Burgess. Planning, planning development. Were you asking me about call you I mean Hell Road from Call Your to US forty one? For my corridor preservation table, it will only be two two lanes with a right of way of eighty feet.
No,
I'm talking about Collier Parkway being widened from Parkway Boulevard south uh from where Parkway Boulevard and and uh Collier um intersect. north to past Tail Road up to Aaron Cutoff.
I don't have any information on that. No.
Yeah. Well, we were told in the past, because we were here arguing before about a gas station, a marathon gas station that was supposed to be put bet behind my house. house. And that's what we were told is that the you know the road was gonna be
widened.
Claire Parkway up. to Aaron cutoff and eventually to sticker fifty two. I don't know whether it's supposed to be it's two or four lanes, but Maybe
four lanes, you know, but it's two lanes now, four lanes later.
I believe that eventually it would be a four lane road up to State Route fifty two if that's your question.
Is Ms. Smith still on? She may know the answer to that question.
David, that information should be in the CIP. I don't have that in front of me right now. It sh it should be showing in the CIP plan.
Well maybe while this gentleman's speaking, one of you could look it up.
I don't know how to do that. This project should be approved if there's going to be major road construction on Collier. in the future.
Okay, you know it's going to happen. How can you approve a project knowing That's the right-of-way. that whole community, that whole street Traffic's gotta go somewhere. And it's going to go out Hill Road to Forty One. Now yesterday on forty one At nine o'clock in the morning it was backed up to the circle K at Hill Road going south. I U-turned knowing that I would go and you know, I U-turn came back in my neighborhood, went down Collier, and it was backed up to
Weeks Boulevard by the library. We have traffic problems and Hale Road is gonna be a cutoff point. People know it's there. Okay. So The pictures I showed you, I'll get off of that subject, but I'm speaking my piece about that. You shouldn't even consider any other projects in that immediate area. Okay? But The pictures I showed you are my street that I'm still paying for the pavement on, and so are all my neighbors. The hole that you see with the twig sticking
out of it is a stormwater runoff drain that keeps getting clogged up. It's caused my neighbor across the street, which it's in his yard, thousands of dollars of plumbing problems. They came out, the county came out, or somebody came out and fixed it. I come home and there's a six by six cold patch. in the middle of the road that I am still paying to have it paved. So my point is is this. Infrastructure is a big deal, and the county is failing miserably.
on infrastructure for existing people.
And it needs to stop because it's not only happening in on my street, it's happening everywhere. And you know, th there's malfeasance going on somewhere along the line because there's federal money for stormwater runoff. Where's the money going? I don't understand it. I I I just don't. It's chronic and you're you're building more and more and more and we're getting less and less and less. And I've been there 32 years, I pay my taxes. And That's
all I have to say. You guys have got to start being responsible. You just have to.
Thank you, sir.
Hey David. Um I don't know if you can hear me. Can you hear me?
Yes.
Uh we know of nothing on Collier Parkway. I know there's probably a a vision show a map showing uh that extension, but we have nothing in the CIP that we know of right now.
Is it in the L R T P.
Uh, I don't have anything like that in front of me right now.
David, I think it is in the L R T P I'm finding uh just give us a moment.
It's probably in it the LRTP probably has a anticipated year of construction too.
Nothing funded in that.
Well when you know the final answer, just let us know.
Hello, I'm Nathan Lapata. I'm from [address removed] and I'm a grad student here at USF. I wanted to talk about the substandard road issue. Uh under section 4021E of the Land Development Code, list a number of factors consider when evaluating the MPUD application. to our applicable here. Whether the proposed change will create an excessively increased traffic congestion or otherwise affect traffic safety, And
whether the proposed charge will adversely affect living conditions in the immediate and surrounding neighborhoods, quote. This project runs afoul of both criteria. The developer's second traffic study acknowledges that the project will add more than a thousand trips per day. and concedes that if this project is approved, Hell Road will operate a level of service D. Here is how the National Academy of Sciences Highway Capacity Manual describes loss or LOSD. Quote,
passing capacity approaches zero, quote. Motorists are delayed in the platoons for nearly 80% of their travel time. Turning vehicles in roadside distractions cause major sh shockwaves in the traffic stream, quote. Quote The driver experiences reduced physical and psychological comfort levels. And that is on a road that meets minimum standards, which Hill Road doesn't. Hill Road is a substandard road. For most of the stretch from Collier to forty one, the lanes are narrower than required
by nine zero one four of the L D C In addition, large stretches of hail road have drainage ditches or power poles or large trees and bushes where the shoulders are supposed to be. So if there's an oncoming car in your lane, there's nowhere to go and get out of the way. And if there's an accident, there's no place to pull off. And when traffic is heavy, emergency vehicles can't go through quickly enough.
So a substandard road is going to be very congested. Traffic delays are going to be the norm. Drivers are going to become aggravated and upset. And a road won't be able to handle accidents. Such conditions clearly will adversely affect living conditions in the intermediate surrounding the neighborhood. The people who have to use Hale Road every day, like me, will be subject to unjustified and undeservable stress, as well as unnecessary and additional danger. Yeah. Comp Plan F L U one point one zero E states that the de ad adequacy
of rail roadways should be considered when determining the timing of a new development. Hillroad is a substandard road. Now, yeah. it can't safely handle another thousand cars per day. This project should be rejected or at least deferred until the the entire length of Hill Road is brought up to county road standards. Thank you.
Thank you.
I think we may have mis uh skipped over Michelle Dillard. Oh, okay, thank you so much. Um it's gonna uh f uh Michelle Dillard is gonna be followed by Peyton Howie and Henry Last Name starts with a B. Henry A. Burnt, maybe?
Um if that person is not here then Christine Osbourne Chris Osborne, sorry.
Good evening now. My name is Michelle Dillard. I'm at [address removed]. I've been sworn in in reference to P ten Docket. Um I didn't, I'm not a specialist. Um, I accidentally signed in just thinking I had to sign in and not speak, but I'm glad I did. I've been here since 1997. I've lived here for 25 years. My home is right on King Lake. And we are right ab right on the curve. So
one 0.5 miles from 41 is Barrie Drive. And I'm a secretary of our King Lake Association. And Since I've lived there since nineteen ninety seven In 2010, we put forty five thousand dollars into our lake. We are a private lake, and we have ninety seven. Lots on our lake, but w only about sixty um are are with homes and then only about forty-eight
actually participate. and putting in money to save our lake. Um just last year in uh 2020 2019, I'm sorry, in 2019, it cost us $62,000. to uh kim o to put to make our lake um s alive and safe and to get rid of the hydrilla and we put carp in all the time and we have to maintain it. It's not maintained by the city. Just recently I know everyone's spoken about the floods
and how it's flooding. It's crazy. Now I understand why, all the development. I was just just was wondering, wow, my my boat went all the way up to the middle of my yard and that hasn't happened since we've had four whorekins in one year. So it's really shocking and I just want you to I just want you guys to think about that and think about our environment and I'm so glad that those students came and spoke because it is very important all that drainage I'm I I guess I'm a specialty
of common sense because when it drains, it drains. And it when it drains, it drains straight into King Lake, Lake Pageant, and Bell Lake. So we have to keep our lakes safe. We have to keep them alive. We don't want to have dead lakes. And it costs a lot for us as private individuals to be able to raise our children and our grandchildren. I have one grandson, and I'm gonna have be able to
raise him on my lake. But not if this developments happen and all these chemicals and all these pesticides and all this just destroys our environment. Thank you guys for listening. Appreciate it. Thank you.
Well I was gonna start this with good afternoon, but I'll say good evening. Um My name is Peyton Howie, and I'm a member of the Tampa Tenants Union and a graduate student at the Patel College of Global Sustainability. I am here to ask that you make the right decision, to protect the ecosystems and wildlife that this cunt this county prides itself in, and to stand in the interests of the people of Pasco over frankly profit hungry developers. It's clear that we are in a housing crisis. As a member of the
Tampa Tenants Union, I'm very familiar with this dealing with evictions and rent increases every day. But Florida continues to lead the nation in percentage of rent hikes yearly, and the answer is not in building more congested homes. This is a flawed mentality that continues to fail us. Recent studies show that Florida has the most vacant homes in any state, estimating that 1.7 million homes remain empty. Yet working people here are unable to find affordable housing, making
the issue clearly not of lack of home not a lack of homes, but an abundance of greed. The creation of these cookie-cutter high-volume homes failed to solve the housing crisis and come with a larger cost. Irreparable damage to our wildlife and natural systems, meaning the definition of incompatibility. As you've heard from the students, faculty of PCGS, and the passionate red residents of Pasco here today, Rosebud Continuum is a sanctuary that borders this
property. It shows that sustainability is not only actualizable, but an imperative necessity. It serves as an educational and community-building tool that I have had the pleasure to be a part of, and yet it is under attack. A world where this property is rezoned is a world where places like Rosebud face great danger. Flooding, runoff, and increased traffic will continue to destroy existing properties and the wildlife that surrounds them. And for what? To maximize the profits of K B homes
and at the expense of the environment and the people? Look at this room. Look at the amount of green shirts in this crowd that showed up despite the distance. The many times this was rescheduled, and this being in the middle of the work week. Lasting five hours. I've been here since one. The people are speaking today. Are you gonna listen to them? It's time to make a decision. Will you side with the residents, the wildlife of Pasco County, and your constituents and vote
no to this rezoning? Or will you stand in the way of democracy to protect developers and corporate interests? Thank you.
Next next speakers are Jared Jacobs, Brian Bishop, and Marty Harry.
Thank you.
Um anyone else on that list was Okay, thank you. Um then we'll have Richard Somerville after and Russell Watros.
Uh good evening, gentlemen. Uh my name is Brian Bishop. I reside at [address removed], which is in uh Lake Pageant. I am the son of Marianne Bishop, who is the property owner adjacent at [address removed]. Um I have kids of my own who are Marianne's grandkids. Ам, де травм to the property from where they live in Lake Pageant, which is less than a mile away, and they do by so by foot. And by bike. Um I
think we've already established that the uh situation on Hill Road is not a uh desirable one. It is uh not good and it is um a safety hazard. Um to me this is a no-brainer. K B Holmes came in and and identified that yes, it is sub uh subservient. Um Road and that They could just throw a little bit of money that is unallocated, um which so that doesn't guarantee that it's gonna go anything to to the safety. Um
And then they could just add to it because it's already bad. Um one thing that I don't know if KB Homes has any interest in the safety of their own residents to the houses they build. But there are going to be kids in those single houses developments. And there is a community center which is less than three miles away. And all the kids in those all all the adjacent neighborhoods. They use bikes and they walk up to the rec center. Um so They are proposing to put in single family homes that will create a risk
to future inhabitants for those kids to be able to travel from Hill Road to Collier Parkway to get to the sidewalks where it's safe. Uh to me that seems kind of crazy. Um I do have anxiety when my son does gr go to um his grandparents' house because there is a substantial safety concern on that corner on the west end. That last turn. Um where I'm sure that that's probably where the report come from were all the accidents. But since I've been there I've seen numerous
accidents. I've known somebody that I went to high school with who almost died on that corner. by running into the gate on my parents' property. It's very, very dangerous. Uh KB Holmes is proposing a
on the left or if you're looking at a map, I don't know if we can pull up a map. On the left side, that's where everybody goes off the road. Uh I think one person hit a telephone pole, it collapsed, and they're talking about putting a playground area or some sort of area in that. And that just doesn't seem very smart to me. Um So w what what has become evident here is that KB Holmes is looking to come in. um put in their development, make their money, get out, And they
have no Um thought or remorse for the fut future inhabitants of the the very places that they intend to build. Um so Um I just Wanna leave with the note of uh Um
Make a bad situation worse. Thank you.
Hi uh my name's Marty Harvey. I live at [address removed]. Um I I just want to oppose the building of this community for several reasons that have already been mentioned. So I won't go there. But I would like to say um The first lady that spoke for KB Holmes came up and told us about the great ratings that KB Holmes has with their Um With their people, but I looked on the Better Business Bureau website
And according to them. KB Holmes is not a good neighbor. They have a 1.1 out of five rating, and that was based on 72 responses just this year alone. That was published in July of 2022. They also have um A ranking of four hundred and ninety-eight with the real estate builders. And um I know you guys were asked if you had driven on Hill Road and many of you said yes.
I forgot to give my qualifications, which aren't nearly as impressive of some of these people, but I moved to Land O' Lakes in nineteen sixty when I was six years old. I'm sorry I'm so nervous. I'm a mother of six and I have thirteen grandchildren, eight of which reside in Land O' Lakes. Four of them um live in the home that I'm at now and they uh go to some go to Pine View Elementary and they live within two miles so they have to walk. So I carpool my
granddaughter in the mornings and I pick up a cousin who lives just um like 1.9 miles. She lives at Branch Ranch. So I challenge you to go on Hale Road, maybe stay at the corner of Hale and call your around 245 when school lets out. and um watch the children that have to ride down that road or walk down that road. There's a young man every single day. I'm terrified for him. I've seen
him almost get hit probably five times in the last two weeks. He rides a bike. He has a big bulky backpack. I know that's not KB Holmes' issue, but it is an issue that they're going to contribute to. And he wobbles on his bike. I've seen three buses lined up behind him and cars behind them as they start passing this young man with about this much room to scoot over to avoid being hit. And it's terrifying to watch. So I challenge you to go watch that. I was raised
on Lake Page, started swimming, the length of Lake Pad across Lake Paget. My grandchildren are fourth generation Lakers, and somebody spoke about the um The quality of lakes and all that rainwater does flood into the lake. So I live there my whole entire life. My parents' home have never has never been flooded. We've had multiple rains and hurricanes come through the years. And with the rain that we're seeing now, we don't we haven't even had a tropical
storm yet. And the water comes way up within twenty feet of my parents' home. So You guys, this is your chance to do the right thing. And I'll just leave with this quote that I often gave my kids when they were teenagers. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. Thank you.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
Good afternoon.
My name is Russell Wattress. I live at [address removed] and I've been sworn in. And I'll make this brief, very brief. Uh this is kind of a address to the board here. Uh you ask uh people to bring in new information at uh subjects that hadn't been talked about. Well, I got one here. Uh there are four I pieces of property on Hale Road Very similar to the one K B
Holmes wants to develop right now. Okay. And let's just say that you approve of this K B Holmes. A proposal. What's gonna happen to those other four pieces of property? Are they gonna be developed with forty foot lots? You're setting a precedent here, folks. And you're gonna have to live with it. We're all gonna have to live with it if you approve this thing. I I suggest you don't approve it.
for us, but also for yourselves, because this is this is kind of we're at a turning point here in Land Lakes. And you can see it. Almost every one of these feeder roads and and back secondary roads are being developed.
Thank you. Thank you.
Russell? Yep.
Hey David, this is As and uh the LRTP shows the four lane widening to up to Aaron Katoff, but there is no specific date.
Okay.
Thank you, Essen.
Yep,
you're welcome.
Richard Somerville, um [address removed].
Uh in 2014, Naya McKlein's book, This Changes Everything, Capitalism versus the Climate, was published. In Chapter 5, she describes what some polit political scientists call extractivism. She defines extractivism as, quote, a non-reciprocal, dominance-based relationship with the earth. One purely of taking. It is the opposite of stewardship, which involves taking, but also taking care that regeneration and future life continue.
At first I thought of abstractivism as only removing resources from inside the earth. But then I realized that extractivism can also describe what is happening in many places here in Pasco County. That is, the extraction from existence, more or less permanently. a vast swath of forests or agricultural land, with little concern for the life that is being destroyed. A case in point is Hale Collier is the Hale Collier proposal. One troubling aspect of this proposal is the number of
constructed ponds around existing wetlands south of Hale Road. These constructed ponds are shown to encroach on the 25-foot buffer, wetland buffers in many cases. Building a pond next to a wetland will tend to dewater the wetlands during dry periods. This will probably stress and kill some of the wetland plants. And make the wetlands dysfunctional. Constructed ponds will probably not serve as a replacement for the wetlands. Thus there
will be a net loss of wetland function from this project. Uh the uh the other troubling aspect is um I'm kind of um going against what everybody else said is that I sort of have the idea that um density should be increased in smaller areas so that larger areas can be kept wild or ki be kept in agricultural land. So I was thinking that maybe the ten foot between houses Would
probably be better to build it build to eliminate the ten foot between houses if they're it's gonna be that small and build townhouses or even uh condos.
Townhouses are houses sharing walls. Another you know, uh these alternatives would allow the same number of dwelling units in a much smaller area, thus allowing some land to remain as agricultural. This would allow the wetland buffers to be enlarged or remain intact. So if you had multi storic story condos they could put it at the back of the property and no one would be able to see it from the road. And um then save more of the land for agriculture and and for water to infiltrate
into the ground for the um flooding and everything else that it'll cause. Although the ponds probably take care of the flooding maybe. If you have enough um water detention ponds, it takes care of the flooding. Um
So I have a closing quote. The task is clear to create a cult quote the task is clear to create a culture k of caretaking in which no one and nowhere is thrown away, in which the inherent value of people and all life is foundational. Naomi Klein.
All right. Thank you, sir. Um Yeah, I think your time's up. So we we appreciate you coming out. Okay, thanks.
My speech for everybody. And also uh Julia Julia Vartunic gave me her speech here. I could read that for you because she was gonna be on the schedule.
So your time is up.
Yeah, your time's up. And I I I mean we we heard your speech as part of the record. So
do you want us to receive and file? Yeah. What you have? Well someone move to receive and file. Second.
Motion to receive and file. All in favor? Which one? You screw them to the cloak.
Julia Bartunik is online, so she's still she has the availability to speak. Yes, sir.
All right. Is there anybody else present?
Mr. Chairman's the last person I had signed up to speak, but there was a gentleman who came and asked if he can speak.
Okay. Is there anybody else if there's anybody else here, come up to the front now.
And we do have four people on WebEx. Excellent.
Good.
Didn't Good evening, gentlemen. How are you? Thank you for staying. I am Thomas Lauber. I live at [address removed]. uh in [address removed]. Uh I am a DOT employee, so I've had extensive stormwater background because I maintain the stormwater asphalt lighting contracts for Hillsborough County. Uh just a few quick things. The one thing I know notice that we do need, I know it's expensive, but due to the growth of the area, we do need a better
emergency services in the area to compensate for, you know, the growth. Also that uh Making the making sure these roads are less uh encroached. For emergency services, somebody's going to the hospital, all it takes is 10 or 15 more seconds for someone to die in an ambulance. uh the stormwater issues. I know Hell Road, the uh uh flow line uh looks more like a BMX track. It doesn't a actually work.
Half the pipes are clogged. I've been through here so many times with it by my house. Matter of fact I live on King Lake and now I've got about a foot of water over my uh Dad County Back. But part of it is too, I've noticed that I had to deal with this with a developer in Hillsborough County. When they when you build houses and you put foundations in It restricts how much area there is for the ground to absorb rainwater and groundwater. So I had to deal with one contractor, I had to have him reduce the amount of homes
and you know set up a stormwater system in order to m make Yeah. replace the areas we were having that where they were building. And uh What they're doing here, you know, everything that we y'all build ha are allowed to be built. That restricts the amount of uh area for the ground to absorb water and that's why we have some more more flooding issues. We had it where I used to live until I went through with it. uh the KB Home deal, it should
really be uh if any drainage, if they do get it, uh that both areas should have a C D S unit. They should have a mitigation area, a line mitigation area, in order to you know, reduce the i issues 'cause we're getting like the young lady said, we had to clean our lake out because the uh washover from all the various areas is now starting to contaminate the uh other lakes now. And it's something very serious, you know, when it comes to, you know, When
you got uh w it look like islands from the hydrilla in the lake. That's pretty bad. So, you know, the more the areas that we keep uh not allowing the water to absorb into the ground, it's gonna affect us in the long run again. So That's all I got to say and thank you gentlemen. Have a good evening. Appreciate you. Thank you.
Nancy Hazwood, [address removed]. Um, the gentleman that was up talking about townhouses, this has been my experience when you cluster houses and leave open space that you turn around and find a road going through it all of a sudden. So please don't consider townhouses there. This is pretty dense for the area as it is already. Uh the flooding that's been mentioning so much, it's not happening just right here. It's all over the county. Maybe
it's time to take another track. Um This is a rural area, it's not suburba. You've got enough um presentations to realize uh that with the comp plan you can suggest much lesser densities. You don't have to give 'em what they want. Keep in mind what's best for the county and your citizens. We already have enough developments putting a great burden on all of us in Pasco. Taxes, crime, loss of ha natural resources. We
are already talking about injecting treated sewage water into our aquifer because of over development. It's all over Florida. So my last point is um Cut this way down or say no and ask your developers from now on in to bring plans that fit better into what's already there. Thank you all.
Okay,
is that everybody that's here present? All right, we'll go on to the WebEx. We're gonna move on to
WebEx. Um we're gonna move on to Jennifer Smith. Ms. Smith, if you would please provide your name and your address for the record and whether you've been sworn. Thank you.
Jennifer, can you hear us?
Looks like you're there.
Jennifer, we'll skip you and we'll we'll come back to you. We're gonna move on to the next person and we'll come back if you can hear us. We'll be back.
The next person is Julia Bartonick.
Ms. Bartnick, if you would please provide your name and address for the record and whether you've been sworn.
Not about it. Yeah.
Julia, um Julia, are you there?
Like no that they haven't stopped.
Julia, we're gonna go to the next person. We'll be back.
Okay. We were we will then move on to Kathryn Kathryn Koenig. Ms. Koenig, if you would please provide your name and address for the record and whether you've been sworn.
Hi, my name is Katherine Koenig. My address is [address removed], and I've been sworn in.
So I'm a graduate student at the Vattel College of Global Sustainability. Just two weeks into my program, we went to the Rosebud Continuum on a class field trip. Since then, the past and the current projects that I have worked on have majorly influenced my studies and research, providing me with valuable skills and pushing me to find solutions to obstacles that seemed impossible to overcome. The first project, which you can see right here, that I worked on was to bring my used plastics to be grinded and shutted with the grinder and shutter
that we have on site. I was eager to start this project since less than 10% of our plastics end up getting recycled. So the majority end up in landfills, the ocean and contaminating contaminating our ground groundwater. From our grinded up plastics, students like myself have made educational signage, cutting boards, bowls, and plates, as well as many other items. One of our ongoing projects is to get a larger grinder to support more plastic projects to decrease the amount of plastics that end up polluting
the environment. Next up, we have another project I worked on, which was the IPC Tank Biodigester. I learned that there is no reason to use septic tanks that rely on gas and causes groundwater contamination. At Rosebud, we use biodigesters. To eliminate groundwater contamination and utilize our human waste for energy, creating the byproducts of biogas and liquid fertilizer. We didn't use any heavy machinery during
this project. To dig the hole, we used shovels. To lower the IVC tank into the hole, we used metal poles in our own human strength. When approaching issues that arise, such as these, students quickly learn that we have to work as a team and communicate to figure out the best solutions.
Next slide, please.
As for the Dragon Biodigester Project, this has been a continuous project for students to work on. Just this past spring, our class built the right foot using plastic bottles filled with grinded up plastics as the foundation instead of wood. Instead of pouring a normal type of concrete over the plastic bottle, Dr. Curling had the idea to make an alternative concrete mix utilizing grinded up plastics as well. Due to the success of this project, we will be making a gopher tortoise structure completely
out of plastic bottles, filled with grinded up plastics, and the alternative concrete mix. The Rosebud Continuum has provided me with the opportunity to work with my classmates, professors, community volunteers, and educate younger students during their field trips here. In my leadership position with the CLIO Institute, as well as my graduate studies and research, looking at the impacts of the climate uncertainty, we haven't gotten any reassurances
that the proposed rezoning and project planning are in any way in step with the broader, more important sustainable development goals we are practicing.
Okay, thank you uh Catherine. Your uh time was up, so But thanks for your presentation.
We're gonna move um on to Kristen Hayes.
Christian, are you there?
Ms. Hayes, if you're there, would you please provide your name and address for the record and whether you've been sworn?
Should we try Ms.
Julia you want to try back
to Julia
or Jennifer?
So okay, so we sh we could try Jennifer Smith. Ms. Ms. Smith, if you were there, would you please provide your name and address for the record and whether you've been sworn?
Okay, um Jennifer, are you there?
No there's no response. How about Julia. Bartunak.
Well
they really do have
Okay, so I'm being told that Ms. Bartonick is in some type of an appointment. So that's what we're hearing in the background. So um it appears that Ms. Bartnick and Ms. Smith are not responding.
Mm-hmm. Mr. Chair, if if we've tried twice to get them to speak and they're not responding, you have no obligation to continue to It's the equivalent of us calling a name twice here and then nobody getting up. At some point you need to give a
So that that concludes your public comment on WebEx.
Very good. Um Okay, um the applicant wanna Do rebuttal.
So before the applicant gives a rebuttal, can I just ask a question? Um And I'm not sure whether it's the applicant. Responding or staff, but I want to follow up on Since there are so many issues on Hill Road, I guess I need to do that. a better explanation about why access to Call Your Parkway
Okay. Or did staff tell you not to access Coll Your Parkway? Did you were you not able to access Collyer Parkway? What it seems like there is a There is land that's adjacent to Collier Parkway. I'm trying to figure out why that was not explored.
Uh good afternoon, uh evening actually. Uh again, Michael Razor for the record. Um David, the answer to that question has to do with this the limited frontage along uh Collier Parkway, the pond, and uh LDC spacing requirements. Um the the engineers at Florida Land and Design looked at that and ruled that out due to wetland impacts and the limited frontage and the spacing requirements of the code.
So you're telling me that staff would not even permit a
I haven't engaged in any discussions with staff on any access other than what's shown on the site plan.
your entire con an entire connection to Collier. From what I can see, I mean I'm I'm not a wetland expert, but doesn't appears to be some up there of some beer appears to be some uplands
Can we pull up the aerial back up? Yeah.
Mm-hmm. Jay Hunning, Florida Land Design and Pyramiding, 3030 Starkey Boulevard, New Port Richey, and I've been Sworn. Denise, could you put up the uh Yeah. the uh and zoom in on uh Hay Hale and Collier in the intersection.
Yeah. So Yeah, if you go if you could scroll. To the north. Oh I'm sorry, scroll scroll down a little bit more. A little bit more. Yeah. Um So there is a there's a wetland that you can see right there. that takes up a pretty good portion of the frontage along Collier Parkway. Um Also, so when we when we looked at that to putting a uh alternative access out, it turned
out that that the driveway would be too close to the signalized intersection at Hillro. And that we wouldn't meet separation requirements.
So I guess I'll ask staff. Um
Did we deny I mean if they wanted a right in, right out South of that wetland, 'cause it appears to be some uplands south of the wetland.
W would that not meet our spacing requirements?
Would have to be at a minimum two hundred and forty-five feet and then a maximum like four hundred and forty feet. So if they don't meet the spacings, then they could uh apply for alternative standard. But we would have to check the spacing on that uh
collector. Can you check that right now?
Okay, I'll come I'll come back.
I mean I'm just I'm not my concern is is that I'm sorry, I'm not sure.
It makes it very difficult for me to ask them questions. if you're yelling from the audience. Thank you. Um
I'm I'm s if you could scroll farther south, I mean it seems to me that there is an upland
Yeah. And it seems like it's a fairly sizable distance from the intersection. So I'm not really understanding why Given how many I mean we've we've had thirty people come up here and here to talk about how unsafe Hale Is that You're having to do all kinds of improvements to Hale. I'm not qu it seems like you just kind of blew over accessing Collier, and I don't understand why.
I think you would if you if you look at that upland that's south of the uh of the wetland, I think you'll we'll get uh begin to get too close to the to the residential street to the south.
Okay.
it seems like you're just answering this off the like I guess I would like our staff to tell me whether we would definitively would have denied them a right if they had sought a write in write out access South of that wetland. off of collier, would we have said yes or no?
That's my question for staff.
David. Uh hey David, this is Essen. So yeah, we wanna make sure we don't impact The intersection, uh, but uh right in, right out may be a possibility looking at the aerial just south of the pond. Uh left in would be difficult because if they have to put a left turn in there, then I don't know if there's enough room with the the residential driveway connection if that can be accommodated. But a right in, right out would be quite possible. But we never looked at that, you know, because we
haven't looked at an access management study yet. The site plan is not here yet. But uh that is definitely something that can be, you know, explored.
Well, Uh it just seems to me that given all the issues on hail
Even if it is only right in right out, it seems like that would distribute some of the traffic away from hail. Yeah. I'm not understanding why that wasn't explored. Better. Plus I think Collier doesn't Collier have sidewalks on it? Yes. Yes. It does?
From what I could tell.
Not right here, though.
It's on the other side. Yeah, these are
If I could add a comment on the access right there, Robert Fudge, Florida Land Design Permitting 3030, Starkey. Um one of the other issues there with that storm pond is the efficiency of it. And given the fact of all the concerns with the stormwater, we want to make sure that we're providing the systems there. With the road not only did the spacing kinda uh put a dampener on on looking at anything there. and the wetlands, but also would be pushing a stormwater pond up a hill. So it makes it less efficient, its
best spot is to be at the tail end of the uh the slope and the development so that it can uh maximize its uh functionality and then connect across to the drainage pattern that's out there now.
I guess I'll ask the engineers and the planning commission if they agree with that statement. Because
Conceptual site plan back up?
Mm-hmm. Looking at the one foot contours that are on the GIS, I mean it is higher on the north side of that wetland than on the south side. Yeah.
So you're saying that's the only logical place to put up?
Which is generally what we would try to do.
My question is: could could is there a way to is there a way to put a driveway connection there? Is what I'm asking.
And David, just to let you know the um spacing is two forty-five. So from that, from the intersection, two forty five.
So you're saying it would meet our spacing?
From what I can tell, I'm just measuring it and it looks like it does. It seems like they do have they have space to have to, but they're gonna run into that pond.
Well and that ultimately goes to w is there another place that drainage
Water goes
to the lowest point. Gravity does what gravity does.
Well, but could you have a pond could you have a roadway connection out and just have a pond south of it?
Potentially. I don't know what whether these I don't know whether they've done computations to determine if that's actually adequately sized and I see they're But they're following traditional
Yeah. I understand the issue. I understand where you're going with that. I
You spend enough money, everything's possible.
So I'm not gonna tell
you that.
Yeah, we we for for the record and f in the preliminary design we we look at providing the right percentages of stormwater pond. to make sure we're not overcommitting on yield. Uh what that drive would do there is actually remove a lot of volume for that pond.
Okay. Well I have a related question to that which is is it an accurate statement that the The the piece that's at the corner of Hale and Collyer that is at Is it being marketed for commercial? Is it zoned commercial? What's what's the Does somebody know the status of that piece?
Mike Dadey, KB Holmes, 19810, Morgan Blush. I have not been sworn in.
Well Mike, you've been here from the beginning. What's the problem?
Nothing.
I'm just kidding.
Mike, we just need to swear you in first. So I was kidding you.
Do you swear to affirm the testimony you're about to give to the truth to all the guys?
I do. So so that one acre in the corner isn't controlled by K B. We don't know what the use is. It has some future use. I don't know. what the ownership pattern would be
so I can't plan for that. The reason I'm asking the question is because not only are we not showing an interconnection to call your we're not showing an interconnection to that piece of property and if it's commercial
It's not commercial. I don't know what it is. It's it wasn't party to the negotiations. It's not part of our contract. Frankly, the land planning exercise has been going on for two years, David. It the Collier Parkway itself drains to that pond and it's a closed basin. There's no place else for that water to go. The engineers would tell you, I wanted to put lots and houses there and they wouldn't let me.
Mike, okay. I'm asking a different question now. Okay. I've asked that question and it was answered by the engineers. I'm asking you.
Let's just say that hypothetically it did become commercial. Why are we not showing some c Because if the if it is commercial, And there's no interconnect to it, then you're basically taking all the tra any traffic that wants to go to it has to go out onto hail. to get to it.
Uh David. This is Nicarios Pitos again with planning and development. Are you referring to the on the graphic on the overhead, are you referring to that w that white square that would be the southwest corner? So the the official zoning map is not illustrating commercial zoning at that corner. Um but to answer Mr. Moody's question from earlier this evening when he asked if this was a node area. Uh I think the answer to that is no and yes. Um no, because
uh the two C2 zones that are around Hale and Collier were rezoned in the 1990s, 95 and 96. Um and the policies in the comprehensive plan, policy flu 161E, uh speaks to creating nodes and un and enabling C2 zonings. uh that were that predated the comprehensive plan. So in that answer was no. That was the answer that I provided earlier. the yes part to the answer is that Collier
Parkway and hail uh I believe are arterial slash collector roads. And so you could, by a comprehensive plan amendment, uh potentially place the com flu At that intersection, but that's not there today. Okay.
Okay. I'm just wondering if an opportunity's been missed if it's gonna be commercial to Yeah. have some kind of interconnection between the residential and commercial so you're not forcing traffic out on the hail to get to it. You do you don't I don't even see a bike pad connection to it. So you're basically saying If that goes commercial, what you're telling me it could be that for traffic to get from this residential to that commercial It has to go out on the hail to get to it. That's one acre. Yeah,
I I mean I don't even know why it wasn't included with this project entirely. I don't know why it is what it is.
After they put the buffers in the stormwater and Well, the problem is we
We'd have to allow something there, otherwise, I'm not saying you shouldn't.
I'm not envisioning development
on that case.
Which
one of
you guys wants
to live at
a
signalized corner? So I I would be surprised if it's not
some commercial use. I don't see somebody wanting to build a house there. Photo Matt's coming back, huh? And so I think there's a missed opportunity to Make sure that I'm not sure why we're not even requiring a bike bed connection to it, but That's a comment rather than a Question.
Did you guys have a rebuttal presentation?
Well I'll lead off the rebuttal. Um again uh for the record Mike Razor with Razor Transportation Consulting. Um gonna hit on three issues. The first was level service. Uh one uh gentleman came up and talked about the level service being D on um Hale Road for post-developing conditions. That is correct, pursuant to our report. And that finding does meet the Pasco County Transportation Performance Standards. But the details illustrate an even better picture. The level surface D range for Hale Road, given its
characteristics, is from 50% to 100% of its capacity. Where in the post-development condition, the capacity would be at uh the volume to capacity ratio would be at 66% to the west, 56% to the east, which is just over the level surface C threshold. Um There were discussions regarding the cost estimate for the substandard road improvements with various comparisons to recent work done on Bell Lake Road. I'm not sure that's a fair comparison for two reasons. One, substandard road criteria and the mitigation
required to implement substandard road mitigation type of improvements is much different than the design criteria used for implementing CIP projects with full typical sections, and Bell Lake Roads and Urban Sections. with close drainage which carries a much more uh higher higher price tag. Um in regard to uh traffic safety. The public comments generally indicate that Hell Road has uh egregiously atypical safety conditions. And while there are areas of concern, and I agree with that, and I pointed out earlier there's some substandard
road conditions that lead to that, uh the numbers do demonstrate otherwise. Um so in regard to traffic safety, we were provided with crash data from Pasco County traffic operations in March. Of this year. That data was for the preceding five-year period from 2017 through 2022. I think it was February to February, which is a typical analysis period for crash evaluation, five years. The traffic crash data identified 25 crashes along Hale Road between 41 and Collier Parkway. That
crash data was used to calculate a crash rate for hail road, which was identified as 1.65, and that's in terms of per million vehicle miles of travel. 1.65 is the number. That crash rate was compared to crash rates for similar facilities in both Pasco County, Tampa Bay area, and uh statewide. So for similar facilities in Pasco County, which is two lane suburban roads, The crash rate on Hale Road is 15% less than the Pasco County overall rate for those same type of facilities.
For similar facilities within the Tampa Bay region, which is basically F DOT District 5 comprised of Pinellas, Hillsboro, Pasco, Hernando, and Citrus Counties, the crash rate for Hale Road is 3% less than that value at 97% of that crash rate. On a statewide uh basis, uh the statewide crash rate is lower. However, the in driving environment is not consistent across the state. Other areas of the state have long expanses of these two-lane roads, which um Carrie, the which changed
the dynamics of how the crash rate is calculated in regard to the v million vehicle miles of travel. So again, in regard to comparisons, apples to apples type comparison, we are lower than Pasco County's overall crash rate for the similar facilities by 15%, and lower than the Tampa Bay area by three percent. And uh that concludes my rebuttal. I'm certainly here for questions. Thank you.
Good evening Mr. Chairman and Members. I'll be uh brief. Cindy Terrapani. I do wanna Hit on a couple of things. First of all, several people, including Mrs. Bishop's consultant, seem to imply or perhaps even state that there was going to be commercial on the site or the commercial will be better use. There is no commercial proposed on the site. I just want to be abundantly clear about that. No commercial whatsoever. And no office. You know, I we all listen quietly while everyone speaks. I think you ought to do the same for the other speakers.
Um We f literally for three and a half hours, she's correct. For three and a half hours we we sat here and we listened quietly to to you guys make the presentation. Please just give her five or ten minutes of courtesy so she can do her rebuttal. Okay?
I'd like to go back um Whoops, I'm going in my way, I apologize.
I'll show again the only area that abuts the Rosebud continuum, Mrs. Bishop's property, is right here. You can clearly see on the concept plan that that is an area proposed for neighborhood park and stormwater management. There are no homes adjacent to that. Moreover. Uh the residents of this project have approved, and KB Holmes has absolutely no interest in preventing the Rosebud Continuum and Mrs. Bishop from continuing to do whatever she wants to do on her property or whatever is allowed. Seems she's doing a lot more than agricultural uses. We've heard a lot of testimony
about school and research activities, which is perfectly fine with us. She's allowed to do that, if she's allowed to do that by her by her zoning. We fully support that.
Uh also I think it's shown best um on a one of the other exhibits. Let's see. Um the lake, um Placey, Lake Placey, which is the excuse me. Which is this area right up here that we've been talking about, that is adjacent to the Mrs. Bishop's property here, is a category one wetland. We are not allowed to impact that wetland. We do not propose any impact to that wetland. We also propose the standard 25 minimum setback of
wetland buffer along there, which is not allowed to be impacted because it is a category one. That is clearly shown on the master plan. So I think we can put that rumor to bed.
I wanna go back
This is you can clearly see from this aerial, this is not a rural area. This entire area from US forty one from east of the commercial area on forty one to to Collier Parkway and even east of Collier Parkway to those neighborhoods, all the way to the schools, is a residential neighborhood with a variety of residential styles, a variety of residential sizes, and we are just one of those styles of residential that is proposed in there. This entire area that you see in Brown and every single speaker
you heard today, except for the folks who are from out of town, which I don't know what the comp plan category is in Saint Pete, but all the speakers that are in this area that spoke today are in res six, just as this cited. We are proposing less than half of the density. We're proposing a 2.5 units per acre where six units is allowed. So all the testimony about we shouldn't be allowed to you should cut them down, cut us down, you shouldn't get the maximum. We're nowhere near the maximum. We're at two and a half units an acre where six is allowed. And again, a res six plan category
envisions multiple zoning districts to be compatible with that resix. six plan category in a variety of different styles and a variety of different lot sizes.
And finally, I would just say, and this was uh uh spoken on in several different speakers about the zoning along, and they focus clearly only along Hill Road. You cannot look just at Hale Road. You've got to look, and I know you all know this, look at the bigger picture. Look to Dupree Lakes to the north. Look to Sable Ridge to the south. All of those developments are single family detached homes with a variety of different lot sizes. Dupree Lakes, I believe, is sixty five foot lots. Sable Ridge is sixty-five-foot lots. Yes, there are larger lots along Hale Road. That was the testimony given today, and I'm sure
that that is correct. But again And having the exact same lot size is not what's required to be compatible. What's required to be compatible is that you don't have an impact on your neighbors. And so we have proof.
Mm.
I think we have proven by our testimony that the single-family neighborhood in a sea of other single-family neighborhoods is compatible along those edges where there are different lot sizes, and there's only two areas. One is Sable Ridge on the south. We are proposing in the master plan to only have 50-foot lots there to add a buffer that's not required along that edge. To the west, I believe it's Jason to Mrs. Martinez that spoke. We reduced the lots considerably along there, and we added a 20-foot buffer where not no buffer is required. So we have done absolutely
everything possible that we can to achieve compatibility. And again, uh respectfully request your your approval, recommendation of approval. Thank you for your time today and of course happy to answer your questions.
Uh collar park away, how far would that be from your first or second entrance into your project?
Is it
from Collier Parkway to our first entrance on the south side?
'Cause I'm gonna I make the assumption that if it's a close distance, most of the individuals that come out of your project are gonna head towards call your parkway as opposed to taking the other route.
Well that's that was much debated whether or not you know, which people whether people will go east to Collier or west forty one. But um I'm sorry, does anybody know the difference? The distance from Okay. And I'm sorry, I had um I forgot to mention this. We would like to add condition number ten. Um Ms. Snyder read it into the record, these are copies for you. We would like to add that. And we're also uh more than happy to revise condition number eleven to say that the funds that we are contributing should be used solely for hail road safety improvements.
Approximately six hundred. Six hundred feet.
Okay. Thank you.
Any other questions? Thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate it.
Do we ha we need a motion to receive and file? This is a motion to receive
and file. Second. You can but it it's fine, but that's the same condition I think Ms. Snyder read earlier, but it's fine if you want to receive and file.
Motion to receive and file all all in favor? Aye. Proposed motion carries.
Robert Fudge, Florida Land Design and Permitting. Um a lot has been said about the water quality and the stormwater and and and uh storage. uh in the area and saw a lot of pictures, a lot of testimony, a lot of comments. Um everything that I saw was uh roadside runoff going into ditches, not really being treated, controlled in in structures. Um activities uh existing activities around l uh lakes right now that are during storm events,
the whatever pollutants are going into that lake. Everything that we have to do moving forward with the project is gonna have go under a regulatory process and design. Every every bit of runoff from the development's gonna be collected, it's gonna be routed, it's gonna be treated, it's gonna be attenuated, it's gonna be held back. Making sure there's no adverse impact going downstream. Uh ultimately to get through any of the downstream neighborhoods, uh culver crossings, and
ultimately to Cyprus. The Cypress head uh to the east. So you know, there we can't just pave it, develop it, send it on its way, and say good luck, hope hope everything goes okay, and we're just gonna be like everything that historically has been done out there. Um you all know, the county knows, the district knows, we have to follow all the rules and write. This project's is gonna be unlike uh no other, it's gonna go under all the same type of stuff.
Happy to answer any questions.
Anything from up here?
I don't have any questions for I do have a question for Mr. Williams, but I can wait till they're done with the rebuttal.
I have a question for staff and I don't remember who brought it up but
this property in two thousand and four and Depree Lakes and How it was removed from the M P D for de I think it was for Depree Lakes or something and then in one of the packages that was submitted there was a a a letter from Ben Harrell. Talking about how this used to be property and that property in two thousand four showed access to
Um I just I didn't see this in any of the finding of facts. So
It was me who spoke a bit.
Okay. That's that's doesn't matter who it was. I just was bringing it up.
Mr. Chair, I'm unfamiliar with that, but I'm not sure if anyone who's on our transportation staff may have dealt with that in the past. The access question to uh do prelakes.
Well Um if you're talking about this letter from Van Harold's Ted Talk.
The county was Copied on it. But I can tell you. Which appears to be some Private agreement between Beeser Homes and Ted Tobbs client. I d I don't know if this ever made its way to The county for the county to know about it.
I mean, I don't know who Lou Steppens is, but
It's not addressed to the county.
Okay, that's you're right.
Mr. Harrell was trying to appease some concern that Mr. Tobbs client had, but if unless The county You know, documented that through some enforceable. requirement somewhere we wouldn't have even known that this promise was made. So there's no knowledge
that because I the the it was a Oh somebody that was opposed to the project that made the presentation that get that I got the impression anyways if they didn't say it. I think they did say it, but either way it was from what I understood is they removed that piece from having access to Hill Road because of opposition. Because the statement was made if it wasn't okay then, why is it okay now?
Yeah, so Somebody would have to check the project file for debris. What is debris? Like,
there was anything in that approval that somehow limited
that affected this property,
right?
Now that would be somewhat unusual for us to do that.
But we'd have to look d staff would have to look in that file to see if that was the case. Otherwise we don't we can't enforce a private letter between One attorney and another attorney.
No, Mr. Harrell was not the county attorney when he wrote this letter. He was clearly a private attorney working for Frugersky and Harrell.
But if somehow Any of this got into some zoning approval, then it could be enforceable by the county, but I don't know if it did.
Okay.
Answer my question.
So can I ask my question? Yes. So Chris, the could you clear up Whether s residents of this subdivision would be busted to school or would they be expected to Walk to school.
So so currently we, you know, as as is known, we pretty much dropped um courtesy busing um for secondary students. Um which is middle and high school. Under two miles. Um Elementary, we still have some courtesy busing. I don't know um this particular area. whether um students who are under two miles are being bussed or
not. Um but I know middle
school so the schools in this area are under two miles.
Well uh so yes, this particular area would be under two miles from Pine View Elementary and Uh Pineview Middle. The uh the boundary line is Alpine Road, right around Alpine Road. That's the boundary division between um Pine View Elementary and Conerton. And the high school is Land O' Lakes. And it's under over or under So I do have that. Um I was gonna clarify some of that. I'm not
sure I don't mean capacity, I mean distance. Oh over under two miles. Oh yeah. Way uh yeah. So any any Any students living here would get bus service to Lane Lakes if they choose. So they would have to but they'd have to walk to Pine View Middle? But I'm not sure about the elementary, whether we're busing students in this area or not.
But i if i if we are it's courtesy busing because it's do you ever pay attention to the lack of sidewalks when you make that decision? So there is a thing called hazardous walking, but those are are defined through the state. Um and so lack of sidewalks does not constitute hazardous walking. Um there are other things that constitute that, but there's uh quite a quite a bit of stuff that goes into um into that. I don't know
all the specifics on a transportation person, but um if there's hazardous walking then then it would they would get busing and and it'd be reimbursed to us by the state, but Th there's ver there's not it has to be pretty severe to be hazardous walking and sidewalks is not is not the sole criteria.
So I just wanted to briefly address the five o'clock thing because I said I would Um I looked at the statute That only applies to Board of County Commissioners meetings, not planning commission meetings. Number one, it only applies to rezon rezoning are initiated by the county, which this is not. And it can also be changed by a majority plus one vote of the Board of County Commissioners. Which our board has done. So it does not apply for multiple reasons.
Okay. And Mr. Chairman Mariano clarify some things that were made about Portables, et cetera. Um I'm not sure where the person got their information. it's not entirely accurate. Their lists that they provided in that, Um some of it's accurate, but they they left off the schools that don't have portables because we do have many schools that do not have portables. But in this particular area Conerton does have fourteen portables. Pineview Elementary has one. Sanders has
zero, Pine View Middle has six and Land Lakes High has ten. Capacity-wise, uh Conerton right now is at 120%, Pineview Elementary is 89%, Sanders Elementary is 93%, Pineview Middle is 96%. And Land O' Lakes High is a hundred and thirteen percent. Uh if this development were approved and constructed, we expect an additional twenty elementary school students. uh eleven middle school students and fourteen high
school students. Um I'm sorry
Excuse me.
If you guys continue to talk, we'll we'll get people removed. Um again, we w we were courteous with you guys for three and a half hours. I continue to remind you of that. We've been here for six hours just like you guys, and we want to get done.
And so we have student generation rates, as you all know, through our impact fee studies, et cetera, that indicate, you know, and that's how we calculate those Those student numbers. So again, twenty elementary students, school students, eleven middle and h fourteen high. based on 109 single family detached. Uh we do have future schools coming. Uh Angeline Academy of Innovation, which will open in 2023. We expect that to have an impact on Pineview Middle and Land Lakes High.
Uh we also have an there's also a new charter school coming to Conerton. And also Day Spring Academy is working on a new charter campus. K through five campus. Um kind of up around where the Ridge Road extension will be. And so those both of those charters would impact the surrounding region, but um primarily probably Conerton and Pineview Middle.
Thank you. Anybody have anything up here? Questions? Anything to add? Motion?
Well, I I'll uh I guess I'll just kind of add in here, um
Not sure how helpful it's gonna be 'cause it's gonna be both sides of the fence here. Um Obviously property owners have property rights just like all of you. Y your house used to be vacant just like this piece is vacant. And we'll hear it every time everybody comes here for a hearing. Everybody has rights to develop their property. Um this this property if you follow the comprehensive plan, which is the the the the guidelines and the map laid forth by the county, by the county commissioners. This um is well beneath the density shown in the comprehensive
plan. I mean res six, which is the land use, means six units per acre. They're proposing about two and a half units per acre. So they they're well below the threshold of what is allowable per the code.
Um a lot of the concerns we heard today um regarding stormwater. Um regarding environmental issues. Um fortunately in this day and age, not like a lot of the older developments in Pasco County that are experiencing a lot of the flooding. Um you heard the guy come earlier and talk about Veterans Village and some of the older communities. They they don't have the stormwater measures and the environmental measures. When those developments were built, they were not required
Mm-hmm. There are agencies that have that that exists strictly to review projects to make sure that those standards that have been set forth by some very smart people. Um they they've outlined standards and requirements for the way subdivisions and the way development is to be built. Um there's water quality components that address the environment. There's water quantity components that address flooding. Um I mean there there's many, many, many factors
that go into when you see flooding. So when you just drive by and you say, Oh, this area is flooded because of This is new development. I mean that Th there's way more factors than the new development played A lot of times the new development actually helps the situation. Um now at the same time th there's also I mean there's concerns. I mean Hill Road to me is is obviously a concern and it's a safety issue. Um I think that the developer has acknowledged that with They're Substandard
road contribution. their construction of the turn lane. Um I mean again, th they're they're proposing a hundred and nine lots on this property. So they they should not be expected to fix the problem. But There is also the the other case where, you know If something happens to one child that moves in there, is that too many? I mean to me if that's my child it is. And I I think they would tell you the same thing. So I mean th this is a very difficult Um
This is a it's a difficult one.
Jamie, I agree. This is probably one of the most difficult. cases I've heard since I've been back on the Planning Commission.
I don't buy The sustainability arguments because I agree with Jamie. We have regulatory agencies which I can assure you 'cause I deal with them on a daily basis. that are looking out to make sure That we're not doc dumping toxic chemicals in the lakes. We're not killing all the fish. We're not killing all the wood storks. That's not happening. The people up in Brooksville and down at the Tampa Regulation Office of Swift
Mud do their job and they do it well. The Department of Environmental Protection does it well. We have a governor who is very, very focused on water policy. And if he's re elected you're about to see Dramatic changes to water quality regulations in this state that you would have never expected out of a Republican administration. That being said, I'm concerned about Hale Road. The substandard issue bothers me.
And unfortunately, seems like we have a broken system. And I'm not sure what the answer to that is. We used to have this concurrency system and the problem with the concurrency system was that the first guy in bought paid for all the infrastructure and then the other guys tagged on and Road to Coattails. So we came up with mobility fees. Well, now we're seeing some of the shortcomings of the mobility fees. Government has to provide for all the infrastructure, and
the infrastructure hasn't kept pace with. the demand for the development. So maybe it's time we go back to the drawing board. I don't know what that is, and I'm sure we'll probably hold hundreds of workshops. on the issue.
Yeah, if I could just respond to that. I don't know that the shortcomings with not having concurrency or mobility fees because That that addresses capacity issues and my understanding is that the primary issue with Hale Road is not a capacity issue. It's a safety issue which Concurrency never would have addressed. Mobility fees are not intended to address. What the part of our code that is intended to address that is our substitute road regulations. If you think those are inadequate, that's
a d that's another discussion. But I don't think the concurrency Well I'm not sure those are Yeah, but there may be an inadequacy there, and maybe the amendment we just did was not good, I don't know. To me if there's a fix it's in fixing those regulations. I'm not sure that re imposing concurrency Or doing something with mobility fees is gonna solve this particular problem? No, I don't think it is.
And the other thing that I hear is, well, the land use here is res six. I'm entitled to develop six dwelling units to the acre.
Well We don't have to approve every MPUD application either. We have Euclidean districts. We could have come in with one of those. And I saw that the other day over on Denton Avenue.
I make my living in growth. I'm an engineer for a living. I draw plans for a living. And when there's no growth I starve to death. So I'm pro growth.
But I'm done with forty foot wide lots and I'm done with fifty foot wide lots.
There may be places that's appropriate. But what I see is a stream of MPUD applications that come through here and every one of them wants a 16 or 18 foot wide townhouse and a 40-foot wide lot.
Well, That's not why you are here. That's not why you bought the properties that you bought?
I don't know if that's really what the market wants. I guess they're can kinda being force fed, that's what they get, but So anyways, that's where I'm at. I'd move to deny and tell the applicant reapply under Euclidean zonian standards. So
So
I find it's a roadway hazard problem. It was flu policy one point. If you have a lot of people who are not going to be able to do that,
I was about to say is that I think you need to be citing some because staff has recommended approval. there are rezoning criteria that you can s you need to cite as to why you a recommending denial. Well. Or why you're making a motion for a denial? If you want to take a two minute break I can make some suggestions, but I unless you have some suggestions.
I'll I respect I've known David for many, many, many years, so I respect his legal advice and I would suggest yes, we'll take the two-minute break. But it would be around the roadways and it would be around compatibility issues.
There we we definitely have code provisions addressing those things. But before I want to make sure you at least get a second to the motion though before I start doing all that work.
All right, there's a motion on the floor for denial. Is there a second?
Yeah, I'm t torn between these just like I'm sure sure the rest of you are. But I only take thirty seconds. I don't have that much. To say I remember a number of years ago that I stood over by Wiregrass
And the young student mentioned it. The shopping center that's over there. And uh it was under construction and the road as you came up, the road there was fifty four at the time it wasn't a road and I remember th the county engineer saying something to the effect that Boy, they're gonna have to bring a lot of dirt in to make fifty four little feasible to bring cars in and Hail Road was the issue to me the most, you know, 'cause it's I've driven the road like the rest of us here indicated
that we had driven it. They all have concerns about it. But I brought up the other issue was the fact that you only have the f two football fields to go out to uh Collier Park way. To me that means I would go that way all the time. So what I'm trying to say here is this is not uh not an easy session uh easy
But I'll go ahead and second it just to move it forward. Doesn't mean I'll vote up or down, but I'm going in second it just to move it.
In that case, can we just take a two minute break so I can
Okay.
Formulate the
two minute recess.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, that like us up.
We we normally do which but for some reason it's not there, so I need to look it up. I just
Based on the stated concerns by Commissioner Moody, my recommendation would be that Your motion for denial would include inconsistency with section four oh two point two F
Read those to you. Um Number one is the impact of the proposed development upon public improvements surrounding land uses in the neighborhood and subregion. Number two is the adequacy of existing public services and facilities serving the proposed development, including transportation systems.
Also policy one flu one point ten point one compatibility A A, which is evaluation of existing uses of land zonings and future land uses, including the existing and potential densities and intensities. B consideration of the existing development patterns and approved development in the area. E appropriate timing based on analysis of available availability of adequate public facilities and services, including transportation facilities.
And
Not done. Halfway there.
Section four two point one E One, the existing land use pattern E two Whether the approval of the request would result in the creation of an isolated district unrelated to adjacent and nearby districts? Five, whether the proposed change will adversely affect living conditions in the immediate and surrounding neighbor neighborhoods. Six, whether there is adequate access from a standard roadway to the site.
Eleven whether the property which is the subject of the proposed change is suit a suitable site or location for the uses available under the proposed zoning district.
Seventeen, the potential need for expansion of public services and facilities to accommodate the proposed development.
eighteen whether the proposed changes consistent with the goals and objectives and policies of the comprehensive plan and specifically Policy one point ten point one that I mentioned earlier. And nineteen, whether maintaining the existing zoning for classification accomplishes a legitimate public purpose. that protects the integrity of the goals, objectives, and policies of the Comm Plan. and the public's reliance upon the existing zoning. Does that adequately summarize your concerns?
Yes.
Did I go overboard with anyone?
Well it's more than I wanna have to memorize tonight, but no,
no. Well I just I just wanna make sure that I didn't add any reasons that were inconsistent with the
right-of-way. So that's the motion that was seconded.
Correct. Okay, is there any other further discussion?
Yeah, I'd I'd just like to add that it is a tough one. You know. You know, people will say, Well, you just ought to keep it agriculture. Well that I'm sorry, that's easier said than done. I mean if USF is out there, maybe why don't they go by? That property. And and Use it. I mean if you don't like what's going to come there, then you need to go buy and keep an agriculture for everybody else. And
Chris, I suggested that they should come reapply, but reapply under one of the Euclidean zoning districts. I recognize their right to develop land.
Oh yes, and I'm not I'm not disagreeing with you. But um But I'm just saying I hear that all the time, you know, I I cause you know, hey, I'm living in a housing development that wasn't there twenty years ago. Um and now I've got my house and I want everything else around me to stay green and and I know you Yeah. Y y I know what you're s yes. So it's just difficult, but again you know, it's easier said than done to keep it agriculture. But I do agree with you the I
don't like the forty and fifty foot lots either and they're trying to bring that over toward Dade City and I you know, I which is where I live now. I grew up in Land O' Lakes. And um But I would uh I
would argue that uh Chris to say that I I've got children but I hope they can afford a home here in Pasco. And right now they cannot. And that's a good point.
I deal with this every day as the CEO of the the uh Coalition for the Homeless. And uh I I mean I can't deny them their right to do this. The condition of Hale Road is an embarrassment. It's a horrible Yeah. I it as far as I'm concerned, it falls to the county to solution that I don't think it falls to this developer. for a hundred and nine homes to carry the weight of that. And that's just my opinion. I I don't like the development. Um
I I don't like what we're seeing in Pasco but the fact is I want my children to be able to live here. And buy a home. And right now they can't.
approving build to rent communities. Not that this is one, but
Okay. Um I think that's everybody. Uh everybody said their piece. Motion on the second on the floor. Motions for denial. Uh all in favor?
Aye.
All right.
Can we do a roll call vote? Yeah. Good idea. All right. Uh I'm a little worried about the way that motion went. So we can just do a roll. If we get a roll call vote please on the motion.
Mr. Jamie Girardi?
Hi.
Mr. Don Anderson? Mr. Peter Hansel? Mr. Jonathan Mey? Hi. Mr. Chris Williams?
It was three eyes, did you mean?
So the so the project's denied. Well the recommendation is the recommendation is denied.
important that you attend the county commission meeting. This is strictly a recommendation.
Is that is that correct, Denise?
I didn't like coding that way, though. Thank you guys for the code. Can I tell you something? I didn't like
coding.