Zoning Amendment (Consent) – Global Broker Group LLC and Alma Associates LLC – Change in Zoning from an A-R Agricultural-Residential District to a R-4 High Density Residential District – South Central Pasco County – South Side of Tupper Road Approximately 360 Feet East of Interstate 75 – Containing Approximately 2.61 Acres

1:06:17Lume Divine Planning Development. This is item PC seven. PDD twenty-three. Dash 7687 in the name of Global Broker Group, LLC, and ALMA Associates LLC. It is a zoning member from AR Agricultural Residential District to R4 High Density Residential District. The subject site currently sits on the south side of Tupper Road, approximately 360 feet east of Interstate 75. This is

1:06:48an aerial view of the site.

1:06:52The surrounding future language use to the north, east, south, and west is all res six.

1:06:59The surrounding zoning to the north is AR, to the east is AR, to the west is AR, and to the south is an MPUD, Wesley Point subdivision. I would like to know now that that subdivision is 155 single-family detach dwelling units with lots as small as 36 feet wide.

1:07:22The subject site is currently undeveloped on approximately 2.61 acres. The applicant proposes to develop the property with a total of eight single-family detached homes in conformance with the R4 high-density residential district standards for development. The surrounding area is characterized by residential and commercial development. Access to the property is from Tupper Road, a county-maintained local road with approximately 40 feet of right-of-way. The subject site has

1:07:52the future land use classification of Res 6 under the comprehensive plan. And this is coming with a recommendation for approval from Planning Development Department. I'm here if you have any questions.

1:08:02Okay. Can I ask Liam one question?

1:08:04Yeah, Liam,

1:08:05what is the minimum lot width for R four?

1:08:08So R four um i the lot width is sixty feet wide by a hundred feet deep, so and I'll minimum lot square footage of six thousand. For Arthur. Okay. Any other

1:08:19questions for Liam? What was that last part, William? I'm sorry,

1:08:24the minimum what? Square footage for the lot is six thousand square feet. Okay. So sixty by a hundred. Okay. Thank you. Okay.

1:08:32What's what so what does that calculate to per number of rooftops for the two point six acres?

1:08:39I'm sorry, salin again?

1:08:40So approximately what what density would that calculate out to for um the two point six acres? The number of potential for R4.

1:08:48I don't have that

1:08:49calculation off the top of my

1:08:50head, but I could

1:08:51Sure and I apologize. Um remember it's always subject to the comp plan, so the comp plan designation is res six. So under res six they can potentially have fifteen lots on there.

1:09:02Oh

1:09:03they're proposing eight.

1:09:06That's what that was the question.

1:09:08Mr. Chairman

1:09:12Mariano wants to come up first or if he wants to just hear the

1:09:17All right. Is the applicant present?

1:09:19I'm representing the the two groups, but

1:09:22okay. You'd like to speak last?

1:09:24Yeah, that'd be great.

1:09:25Okay. Thank you. Let's uh see what the concerns are. All right. Uh so uh those who have been sworn, if you want to come up and give your questions, testimony.

1:09:36The first one I have signed up to speak is David McCollin. McLaughlin, sorry.

1:09:43And my husband is David McLaughlin.

1:09:45Perfect.

1:09:45I've been sworn, my address is [address removed].

1:09:52And with me I have numerous residents of Tupper Road as well as Citrus Trace, which is also a primary access point to Tupper Road, that seems to be a bit overlooked here. And I have for the commission, um pictures of the area as well as 75 signatures from residents that live there opposing this change. This is a agricultural neighborhood. With Acreage. Th there are farms. We have forty

1:10:23acres myself. My neighbors own property. Um can I do this one here?

1:10:32Move to resile. Oh, second. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. Pose, like sign.

1:10:40And what's important here is that to access Tupper Road, if we can pull back up that map, I'm sorry, you either come directly off of 54 to Tupper, which is a dirt road. that is county maintained um In theory, but not necessarily in practice. In fact, the owners of homes on this road actually maintain the road. The road floods to the point where the county closes the road at Tupper, which causes an increase in traffic to

1:11:10the Citrus Trace neighborhood that's on the outside. That would be turning down Caroline, going to one of the roads that cuts across. Tupper Road currently has eleven homes on it. Eleven homes that are occupied. We're ac what is being asked is to add eight homes uh which would increase traffic to Tupper Road that's under maintained, not completely paved, and it's not actually 40 feet of access way. Every single owner of Tupper Road owns at least half of

1:11:40the road with their property line. Meaning that we've granted easement between people to go down the road, but our fence line could arguably go out half the road. All the way. Um I'm gonna let I'm gonna save some time and let some of my um neighbors speak as well as my husband on it, but In addition, the res six property that's referenced is cut off by a wall and those two changes, those actual changes

1:12:10that occurred. Have access to fifty four directly. They're not coming down Tupper Road.

1:12:15Can can you confirm what so you refer to Citrus Trace, which neighborhood is that on the on the map?

1:12:21Uh you gotta zoom out a little bit. So Citrus Tray's Tupper Road makes a curve further down. See Tupper Road is supposed to keep going. Oh shit. Centers trace and downy.

1:12:41Okay. And that residential neighborhood that that abuts Tupper Road, there's no direct access from that neighborhood onto Tupper Road, you're saying that's walled off there?

1:12:51Right. So those subdivisions that you see that go back to Tupper Road are wall.

1:13:04Where where is your res where do you live on that map?

1:13:08I live on

1:13:16We don't have our pointer anywhere. There's one there.

1:13:22Listen. Oh boy.

1:13:24Yeah.

1:13:27Is it what do I do?

1:13:33It's not working. Um

1:13:38Can you show her how to use that lamb, please?

1:14:06Right there. Okay.

1:14:15Other questions?

1:14:16Yeah I have a qu I have a well go go ahead. Tupper road was unpaved.

1:14:21It is unpaved. It's partially paved and it's partially paved solely because one of the Tupper Road owners paved a short part.

1:14:30Hi David, do you have a question?

1:14:32Yeah, I'm not sure if I understand the point you were trying to make about the easement and the deeds. I didn't quite understand what you were trying to say about that.

1:14:42If you look at the actual property lines of every homeowner on Tupper Road, their actual property line goes to the midpoint of Tupper Road. All the way across. So there's parts of Tupper Row that are completely owned by the homeowners on Tupper Row.

1:14:56Okay, you two ours that's not legally accurate. If the county's been maintaining that road for more than four years, the county owns it. It doesn't matter where your D goes.

1:15:06I would argue the county doesn't necessarily maintain the road, but I understand what your point is.

1:15:11I guess I'll ask staff. Is the staff does the the county maintain this road or not?

1:15:19So this is uh Benflow about transportation planning. Um and uh yes uh I'm the county that's inviting this room.

1:15:29But in a substandard condition.

1:15:31We maintain many roads in a substandard condition, but we typically it means we grade it. If there's somebody that makes a complaint about potholes, we go fill the potholes. But you can maintain a dirt road.

1:15:48Yeah, we would assume there would be an easement through the parcel for the county road, even if the parcel goes to the nearest

1:15:53room. It doesn't matter whether there's an easement. If the county's been maintaining this road for more than four years, the county owns it by state law. Doesn't matter where the deeds are, doesn't matter w who has easements. It's a it's a state law says that if we've been maintaining it for four years or more, we own it. That's why I asked the question of whether we've been maintaining it.

1:16:12even if you recently bought a property that now has a property line that extends onto that road. I mean we have residents that are specifically paying for that

1:16:23I don't know why we would buy something that we already own. That doesn't make sense to me, but Um Now is it possible that we bought something that we don't maintain? That is possible. But If we state law is clearer that if we've been maintaining it for four years or more we own it.

1:16:42I understand your position.

1:16:44Are you an attorney?

1:16:46I am.

1:16:47Do you have some case law to support the fact the county doesn't own it?

1:16:50I don't have case law with me currently, but I understand your position. I

1:16:53Do you have some law that says s that disputes my legal position? Case law, statute, anything you can cite that says that that the the county doesn't own that road.

1:17:03Respectfully I just said I don't have anything with me right now to that effect.

1:17:09Okay. My position is the county owns it then. If we maintain it.

1:17:16the road is still not paved, not made. I agree

1:17:19with you with the substitute road. And did you say it floods?

1:17:22It floods. It floods at the end, in fact where this alleged uh subdivision is going to be and it floods at the end where it hits fifty four. And it's been closed by the county before because of flooding.

1:17:38No,

1:17:39that

1:17:39one's what easier.

1:17:45You got one that works now? Mm-hmm. Okay, thank you very much.

1:18:01Thank you all for your time and consideration. My name is David McLaughlin. I live at [address removed] as well. Um 35 years old, my father bought the property out there in 1987 to raise horses, a 40-acre square. I've been there for 33 years of my life. I intend to be there for the rest of my life. Based on the definition of AR zoning in the Pasco, Florida Land Development Code, it states that the purpose is to allow the development of relatively

1:18:31large tracts of land to accommodate those individuals. Individuals who desire a rural or estate-type living environment to curtail urban development in areas which lack facility. I think that this is a very, very clear situation of that being manipulated. Um The only case law so to speak or variances that have been given in the past that are listed in the applicant's application. 1992

1:19:01rezoning, which would be to the south of the parcel that we're talking about, and a 1994 rezoning, which is also to the south. Both of those rezoning did not affect Topper Road in any way. There was direct transportation 254, and Topper Road was blocked off entirely. There's a six-foot masonry wall, there's landscaping, completely separated. So my objection to this is that we do live on a substandard road. There's 11 homes currently. You're almost doubling the traffic now

1:19:31with no infrastructure whatsoever, no improvements. As my wife stated, citizens, myself included, Mr. Hopkins, he'll speak, we've been maintaining the road as well. The road floods, the county comes out, they put out barricades, caution tape, it's closed. At that point, the only way out is through Caroline Drive, Citrus Trace Subdivision, which also has a very low density for homes. So and one other thing that I know that the developer

1:20:02offered $19,000 toward infrastructure improvements as part of their application. It's not gonna do anything. I mean we're talking about two miles worth of paving and infrastructure and striping and lights. Appears I'm running out of time. But I don't think that any of this is going to be beneficial to the community. I don't think that the residents are going to appreciate it. Not only those on top of the road, but also those in citrus trays. And as you'll see with the petitions that we turned in, there were 75 of

1:20:32us in agreement, and I'm sure that there's more that we were unable to contact. So Okay questions?

1:20:39Uh well the property is zoned AR now, is that correct?

1:20:42Yes. There's an underlying future land use of res six. Can we see a future land use map and kind of a wide scale? I kinda wanna see where how far does res six extend.

1:20:56Well and AR would allow one unit per acre anyway, wouldn't it?

1:21:01Yes.

1:21:12So

1:21:16So the boundary of the Red Six does it go north of Tupper Road?

1:21:20Yes. Does the boundary go through I'm sorry, your last name was McLaughlin. Does it go through his property?

1:21:27It does.

1:21:30His property is res six land use and it's also in an urban service area.

1:21:35It's not all res 6, so hard was res 3. I'm just trying to get my bearings on where that lock where that boundary line is. Is the boundary line tougher road or

1:21:46No, it's north of Tupper Road, that's what I just asked. I don't know where how far north of Tupper

1:21:49Road is it looks like it's Tupper Road. Is to the north to the north south boundary for that res six.

1:22:01There it is. Okay.

1:22:20So by the way it does show an easement along Tupper Road. We were dis discussing that. Uh there is an easement there.

1:22:42You can look over, can you just show the the fruit out of OS X?

1:22:49Okay, so the pro their property as I understand it, explain this species here.

1:22:56Correct.

1:22:57So that line just north of it right there is the Res 3. So their property is Res Six. So the line is imagine the northern edge of the property is Rust six.

1:23:10Mr. Jair, can I ask top a question? Sure. I don't know if you're done. Are you done? Denise Relim, the M P D to the south, when was it approved?

1:23:25So that was approved on May seventeenth, nineteen ninety four.

1:23:31So I'm gonna pretend I'm Commissioner Starkey for a second. Um why was it approved and no interconnects to the north? Because she

1:23:41wasn't on the board yet.

1:23:42Well I mean our code but our code requires I think has required to interconnect since that date. And had there been interconnects to the north, maybe they could have accessed to the south to fifty four as opposed to trying to use Tupper Road.

1:24:00Well I'm just I'm curious as to why. I mean did we specifically not require that? I mean, I guess we didn't 'cause it's there are none, but

1:24:11I'd be curious to know why we didn't make them interconnect, but I guess it is what it is.

1:24:24I don't have an answer for you why they didn't provide interconnects. It could have been in a condition of approval from the MPUD, but I would have to research that.

1:24:32Probably should research that before it goes to the board because I suspect Commissioner Starkey's gonna ask the same question. Nota.

1:24:42Yeah,

1:24:43other angles. We do. Yep. Thank you.

1:24:48All right, thank you.

1:24:57How many units are they proposing to build on here if they get this approved?

1:25:04Brian Fairley, [address removed]. I just have some photos I'd like to present to you all at street level so we can kind of see the road that we're talking about.

1:25:24Something that we have to receive or we have to do that.

1:25:29On the top road, so the property that we're referring to would be back over here.

1:25:40So things look good there.

1:25:46We don't have an overhead projector, do we?

1:25:57The actual

1:25:58photograph isn't that large, but the paper's large.

1:26:01The paper if you can make the paper smaller, perhaps we can work on it.

1:26:08Same photos? Yeah, that'll be better.

1:26:12Sir i if it's in the binder.

1:26:16We saw those. Are those the same ones?

1:26:18Okay.

1:26:20I mean he says no need to hold him up there.

1:26:22Okay. Are we gonna go through 'em or you just gonna

1:26:25Yeah, we're gonna try to show 'em on the screen.

1:26:28Can you confirm real quick which house you are? Are you are you To the right. To the right. Yep, right there. Bingo. Okay.

1:26:35You got it.

1:26:35Thank you.

1:26:41I would just like to add the whole community uses the road as kind of a parklike setting. Everybody walks their dogs down this road to and from, you know, dead end, that's it. Back and forth. It's not lit. People know at dusk you just kind of your dogs you you go back home. You know, we all benefit from the way it is. I'm not saying there shouldn't be any homes on it. I mean it makes sense to put one home on 2.65 acres if you look at the surrounding areas. Um

1:27:18I don't know what else to say about it. It just it just doesn't fit with the community. You know, I I would like to know what is beneficial to have eight homes on it other than tax dollars.

1:27:32You know, what does it really does Pasco County need another eight homes on a dead end road?

1:27:46Here we go. That's coming off of 54, making left on Tupper Road, and where the pole what looks like is a pole, that's where it floods.

1:27:58And they have had uh the barriers, you know, that the road is closed and then obviously everybody does go down downy and then you would make the right on Caroline. Which and that road's already in rough shape.

1:28:17Okay. You can g you can kill the next one. Uh I think that's upside down. That's that's kind of coming around the bend.

1:28:24Did I ask what year last one? Two days ago. Yeah.

1:28:31So before I wastewater.

1:28:32So you can't be speaking from the audience. You can address these your comments when during rebuttal and you come up.

1:28:37Yes sir.

1:28:40And obviously it's not showing that right now because it is dry, but it won't be long come the springtime and it will flood. You know.

1:28:51We've seen that one already.

1:28:55And that one.

1:28:58Right. That is making the is it Carolina? That's Downey? Okay, that's Downey looking to the east, to Caroline. So that's a the dirt. to the right is going down the dirt portion of Tupper Road. So now when that road gets to be a muddy mess, everybody's gonna go Down Downing and then are gonna make the right on to Caroline out on the fifty four.

1:29:30Same road. And everybody in there is basically single house, I would say in a smallest lot is probably a half acre. So it's asking a lot to put eight on a dead end road.

1:29:43With very little infrastructure to begin with. I mean a trash truck like backs down. The corner of Tupperware looking at there. Trying to keep you on track here. This is is that the prior huh? Oh that's from the end looking to the east. That's from almost I seventy five. looking back towards the corner of Tupper. So that's about I think it's a mile from end to end where it makes the right. That's

1:30:14about where the subject property is. Say it again. By where the applicant's property is. Uh to the right. Yeah. Yeah. Right where the telephone bowl is with the transformer on it. Correct.

1:30:29It looks like the same view there. Same same view, yeah. Keep going. Just a little bit closer. That's in front street level.

1:30:39Sir, can I ask you a question? I this won't counter at your time. Has there ever been a and I realize the county's about to move away from the paving assessment program, but Have the residents in this area ever petitioned to pave Tupper Road?

1:30:56Not that I know of. Cool. I'm

1:31:00just one gentleman. I'm not ask so I'm asking has there ever been a petition to the county to pave this road? I don't believe so.

1:31:09Thank you. I've only been in there three years and a month, so some of the older residents could Probably go over.

1:31:15If any of the residents in the audience know the answer to that question, when you come up to speech, please tell me. Thank you.

1:31:23Okay. Anything new on the in the pictures we need to see?

1:31:27It's just more of the property that you know it it's just Eight homes on that uh how does this how does this change everybody's value around it? You know, we we paid a premium to live on Tupper Road. To have a country setting.

1:31:47You know, you own a piece of property, you just can't do anything with it, but why not just one house? Like the rest of the community has.

1:31:56S so to my understanding, just looking at um I'm looking at Google Street View here, so it looks like the Tupper Road is paved coming off of fifty four and then it looks like it turns to dirt. And then it

1:32:08no, it's only it's only paved. Do we have an overhead? Oh maybe back in the beginning. It's only paved at the corner of Downey, to around right in front of our property. Right in front of twenty nine oh twelve. Right

1:32:22s yeah, and that was my second so I saw that's paved around the corner and but it's also a short section that's paved right off of fifty four. So it goes off a fifty-four-four short section is paved. Maybe

1:32:32fifty, sixty feet.

1:32:33Right. And then it goes to dirt and then it goes to paving around the corner and then it goes back to dirt again all the way to the west. Not yeah, just All the way to the the west towards the subject property. Right.

1:32:45If you go back to the overhead, you know just right in front of our property.

1:32:49To your knowledge, has the county ever been out to to grade or to or has anyone ever contacted the county about the flooding issues that you're talking about?

1:32:56People have contacted but nothing's really done. And when they do come out and grade, honestly, it makes more of a mess than anything. And the only thing that helps it is that we don't have that much traffic flow on it. So you know it just kind of works out. Does it get muddy? Absolutely. You know, but people know you just kind of go around the puddles and this and that and you kind of try and get off in the grass and it is what it is. But now if we start putting eight homes with a minimum of two more cars a day in and out to Walmart and everything else fifty times a day, dropping kids

1:33:26off school, whatever. It just can't handle it. It's just too much.

1:33:34Okay. Um who's the who's the planning lead on this project? Hmm.

1:33:41Say it again.

1:33:45Well are are you done with this gentleman? Because we're running out of he's probably exceeded his three minutes now, but we've I don't know if you have more questions for him.

1:33:55I guess one more. I mean at the end of the day, if Tupper Row was paved, would you be opposed to this project?

1:34:04I wouldn't be happy about it. I mean it's just gonna change everything for the whole community. All the traffic. You know, the dogs walking. It's a it's kind of a golf cart community. You know. It's it's not lit. Everybody knows what the road is in the whole community and we use it for that. You know, now when you turn it into somewhat of a little interstate, back and forth. I mean, you know how it is. Just you know, there's a lot of people moving around.

1:34:31But you you do understand that the density they're asking for is far less than what they're allowed. And also it's kinda sagged against you.

1:34:39Although it doesn't fit it it just doesn't fit in with the area.

1:34:42Well, you've thirty six foot lots drift just to the southeast from a

1:34:48stability perspective it's but we don't really see that. Yeah you can see roofs because it is a concrete wall and it all is Accessible off of fifty four. So it's not that big of a burden on us because there's no traffic flow from it.

1:35:01Do you see some roots?

1:35:04If you have questions for the gentleman, ask your questions, but this is not the point of this is not to get into an argument. I'm no I'm not I'm I'm not looking to get into that argument.

1:35:14That's that's it, thanks.

1:35:17Thank you for your time.

1:35:19Thank you very much. Thank you for the pictures.

1:35:26Okay.

1:35:30I think this man has got the information about the So

1:35:33before this before this gentleman speaks up. One second, sir. Excuse

1:35:39me. So I have a question for staff that I suspect is gonna take them they're not gonna know off the top of their head. So I want them to research it while we have public speaking. When the county moves to the MSTU process, the first time. Will this type of road be paved? And if so, what will be the process to decide whether it gets paved? In other words, we're moving out of PVASP where you have to petition to get your road paved. And

1:36:10we're moving to a system where roads will just get paved based on whatever the county determines they need repaving. So my question is when we move to the new MSTU system

1:36:24Is the county just gonna come in and say this road should now be paved or and and if so, when will that happen? That's basically my question.

1:36:34I can have a piggyback to that question as well. So I I was wanting to know if uh traffic study had been done on this potential uh rezoning.

1:36:41So so just y just so the planning commission knows, the way the county historically worked on dirt roads was They weren't paved unless the residents in the area petitioned the county to have it paved under what we call our PBAS system. The Board of County Commissioners recently decided to move away from that type of system and move to a countywide MSTU which would have the county coming in without any petitions and paving roads that need to be paved. the question

1:37:11I have is when we move to that system is this would this road be a candidate to be paved And if so, when? That's really my question.

1:37:21Okay. And you're gonna

1:37:23And I don't think there's anybody online that's gonna know the answer to that question. I'm not even sure if Ms. Smith or Ms Mr. Sumner know the answer to that question. So I'm asking staff to try to find the answer while public art is speaking.

1:37:37Maybe Brad knows.

1:37:39Brad Brad does not know. Why are you? Well, I I wanted to answer some of the other questions. Oh to that one there's a lot of ifs and and things that I I don't know that we could even answer that. It is as uh was mentioned earlier, this is a res six uh land use area, which is a higher level density land use area, uh and it's also um in the urban service area. area. So this is an area that's intended to be uh somewhat more bustling than it

1:38:09is right now. Uh the the uh you asked about the the transportation study, the traffic setting. Uh because this generates this only eight units uh generates so few trips, it it comes under the threshold so it's not going to required to be done. Uh based on uh the the unit count, there's a maximum of eight PM peak hour trips expected, six AM peak hour trips expected, and seventy-five total daily trips expected from eight lots. So that's very long.

1:38:39So let me you're sort of making my point, Warren. If it's in the urban service area We probably shouldn't have dirt roads in the urban service area. Okay, so then I would think that the answer should come back, yes the county intends to pave it when we do the MSTU if it's in the urban service area because we shouldn't have dirt roads in the urban service area. That's why I would like an answer to my question.

1:39:02I'm glad I could answer the question without answering the question.

1:39:06So regardless if the traffic is below the thresholds.

1:39:10Fairly low and below the thresholds but we can we can look into that. But yes, it would be my assumption is that ultimately you would want these roads in the urban service area paved because you're expecting higher densities and then

1:39:23that leads to my second question, which is assuming the answer to the first one is yes. Yes. Next second question was when, because I guess I'd like an idea if we approve if the Planning Commission approves this and the Board approves this, how long will the trips be traveling on a dirt road before they're on a paved road? 'Cause I understand we're gonna do this MSTU but that detail about when we're gonna pay roads like Tupper, I haven't heard in any of the board discussions. You'll be hearing from plenty of residents about it, I'm sure. I'm I'm sure we will,

1:39:53but but but I still think that I'd like to know what the county's plans are. I mean we w we have a department that is presented to the board about this new MSTU. That's purportedly gonna replace Pas and pave these type of roads. I'd like to know if this is gonna happen this is one of the roads that would get paved and if so when? At least ballpark. I don't even know if somebody tells me it's thirty years, that's a helpful answer. If it's five years, that's a helpful answer.

1:40:19Okay. Yeah, I I don't have that. Uh I will have to defer to them for that, whatever their method is.

1:40:24But I'm asking this question now because I don't didn't think anybody in the room would know the answer, so that's why I'm I'm hoping somebody can research it while we're letting them go.

1:40:34And uh if you'll say state your name and address. Yeah. And have you been sworn? Yes, I have. Thank you. I'm

1:40:41uh Dwight Hopkins. I live at [address removed]. I own two hundred and some acres there. And I'm really familiar with that. The whole situation out there. as far as the easement is concerned and the county owned it. There's such a thing as due process. They've never notified me that they've taken any of my land. Mike I own all the land. that Tupper Road sets on that abuts my property. My property line is on the f far side of the road from my I get a tax bill for that

1:41:11road every year. And uh When the county wanted to put a sewer line there a few years ago, they came to me. And said we want to put this sewer line through. And I said, okay, I won't charge anything and put it through there because it's through and water. But I s they they brought me a document. They didn't say the road was theirs or they're taken from 'em. How can you take somebody's property without due process, without notifying them or anything? I'm talking about the four years of maintenance. That's the biggest joke in the world. The county has wrecked that road. They take two graters

1:41:42about once every two months. And he dropped the blade. Cut it down where it's a ditch. When the water runs down there. fills our property a foot high. When that flooding They come out there and put barricades there. They never come got the barricades. People ran over them. They got thrown inside. I've been mowing the the side for years and the county has never once mowed it. Right now there's big holes in the road. They grade them out, but they won't even bring in fill them. They know they're there. They got

1:42:12filled I could just put right in there. And uh I I'm I'm not gonna just lay down on this with the with them taking the road from me. I'm gonna I'm gonna hire somebody like Hill Ward Henderson or Joel Two to represent me and see if they can take that.

1:42:28You know Joel II doesn't practice law anymore.

1:42:30Yeah, right, exactly. And then with the road See if you can't come out top of road, which you can a lot of times 'cause it's flooded. And people are going to drive through Citrus Trace. Well, the roads in Citrus Trace are 40 years old. They were built poorly 40 years ago. There was no oversight. The asphalt was put down that thick. They're shot. They haven't been, not one of them's been resurfaced. They're just one mass of patches. And the people, the only way the people in Caroline. uh can

1:43:00and such a trace can get those roads paved through a paving it says. But they'd have to pay half the paving size. These people, they're gonna put these houses in there. Guess what they're gonna drive? They're gonna drive on those roads. Yeah, the people had to do that. Citrus Trace are paying for half repair. How can they do that? When the county does that on the pavement says, Well I know oil. Uh, they are. if for some reason it costs three times the month. I paved that road myself and the reason I paved it is because the county had it so

1:43:31flooded that the road was cut down that far from the ground. So I brought it back up and paved it, so we sloped it, so instead of the water running down there, drowning those people on the end, now it's its surface drains off and and perks in the land, like I said, it was going down to the DOT spot. And uh

1:43:53Well, let's see what else. Oh yeah, on the on the pavement atop a road. That is the biggest joke. This we go and stand there and the county won't pave that for twenty years. I had a developer come in and want to buy my property. I I knew it it wasn't gonna happen and I went ahead and sign a contract. It was short term and he should spend all this money. And the county told him to build his development. He had to put in He had to spend six million dollars on Tupper Road. There's a big pond there. It doesn't belong to the county. and

1:44:23they had to go through and get an Army Corps in the interest permit. to go through that pond and he was gonna spend six million dollars to take top of road. Down the Wells Road we put a turn on. He walked. That was it. And I mean I I I believe in development, I'm a contract with But I think it should be done right. And you shouldn't let people Put these little things out of here when they're aren't adequate. Roads and stuff to serve them. Uh it's just not Agnes. And and like they said about

1:44:53the subdivision, let's subdivision come out on fifty-four. They don't come out on type of road just like they're not there. And uh I just think it's a bad idea and if you let them do it Everybody along that road can do the same thing. If you let them do it, why can't you let the next guy do the next guy? Pretty soon we'll have this hodgepodge development. Well I know I'm I'm not gonna be around it much longer. Some day I was hoped that somebody would come in there. with a master plan. There's about five hundred acres in there. There's David's and mine. and do

1:45:23something real nice in there. That's what I would do. But I hate to see these little. entreprise developments. 'Cause they had all the roads there, like those people had fifty four and good roads, sure. Yeah, Woods property is right behind uh care of citrus trace. They're fixing the plan on 158 units going through citrus trades. In addition to this, they're fixing the ply now. And those roads need to be fixed before we add all this extra traffic to it. That's all I have to say. Thank you.

1:45:54Thank you very much, sir.

1:45:55Appreciate you done. I do have another question for staff that again I don't know if you might need to research, which is do we have a recorded maintained right away map for Tupper Road?

1:46:08Because we now have two speakers come up and assert that the county doesn't own mean own Tupper Road. by maintenance. I'd like to know if we have a recorded maintain right-of-way map report.

1:46:20The one thing you could do on the Pasco mapper is click your um layers for um easement. And you can see there is some easement on Tupper Road, at least on that map, but there's some where this gentleman was speaking there's no easement that's s showing up on this map anyway, it doesn't mean it's not there but

1:46:36Well, again, easement's are irrelevant if we've been maintaining it for four years or more. I don't but I usually that's it that's often evidenced by a maintain recorded maintained right-of-way map. That's why I'm asking the question whether we have one.

1:46:52It's under storm and then general easement.

1:46:55Yeah.

1:46:57So I can tell you in Pasco Mapper on under when you actually click on Tupper Road, um it is listed as a county maintained local road.

1:47:04Right, but the limits of our maintenance are are often documented through Okay, recorded maintain right-of-way map and that's what I'm asking is do we have one? Not that I'm aware of, but

1:47:16We don't know if this road is included in there.

1:47:32It's generally roads, the county won't maintain a driveway, but yet but yes, if it's a any road that we maintain, I'll pull out the statute and I'll Memorize the statute number, but if we maintain a road for four years or more, the state has deemed it to be owned by the county.

1:47:49Okay, so does the county send notice that your easement is now right of way or

1:47:55no. We the notice is the fact that we are main started maintaining the road. Okay. Now, there's I acknowledge that there's some times when the limits of what we maintain are sometimes disputed. So for example, this gentleman's claiming that we're not maintaining some of the shoulder apparently. That's possible. I mean sometimes we only grade the road and not we don't maintain the shoulder. But those issues about the limits of what we maintain

1:48:25are often resolved through a main recorder maintained right-of-way map. That's why I asked whether we have one um for this road. But I don't think it doesn't sound like there's any dispute that we maintain it. What I'm hearing some of them say is that there may be portions of this road that we're not maintaining. I

1:48:44don't

1:48:44know.

1:48:45So David In the case of what Mr. Hopkins said, if they came in with a sewer line, that would have potentially been off the road and maybe that's why they

1:48:55Yeah, it may be that yes. I I don't think that we would ask for an easement if we were putting the sewer line in our maintained right away. Right. If we were putting it outside of our maintained right away, yes we would need an easement from the property owner to do that.

1:49:11How While we're listening to the speaker, I'll give you the statutory reference.

1:49:18But then basically the notice to the applicant is when we start maintaining it basically. Or the notice to the landowner, sorry.

1:49:27All right. Is there anyone else that would like to speak against this proposal?

1:49:32partial answer to David's earlier question. uh as far as timing of it. Uh the the plan I understand is supposed to go to uh for public hearing I believe uh in May and it's intended to begin with the roads uh in the beginning of the next fiscal year, fiscal year twenty four, which would start in October of twenty twenty three. Uh so where this particular road would fall in that mix I can't speak to but the the project.

1:49:58My guess is it's not gonna be in the first few years. My understanding is the first roads they're gonna do are the ones that were under the old PVAS system. Right. They're already started under that process, they're gonna do those first. So that's why I asked whether this one had ever been petitioned. What I'm hearing is that it probably never was. Um So it's not gonna be in the first few years of that program But then the l next logical question was when will it be? Is it gonna be thirty years or Never? I I that's

1:50:29the really the question.

1:50:29I yeah, I think uh that by the time after but sometime probably between May and October there should be a methodology as to how they're choosing those roads and how that gets done that we would be able to identify at that time maybe a more realistic window of when that might happen. But until then we wouldn't uh Unless there's a outstanding P VASC, which apparently there's not, so

1:50:51So bottom line is we don't know. It could it could be thirty years or never at this point. Yes.

1:50:56However, it is in the urban service area and it is a fairly high density area, so again that would that would probably move it up on the list, like you were saying earlier.

1:51:08Okay. Anyone

1:51:09else? So is that the best answer I'm gonna get basically?

1:51:15Uh until until after the hearings in May and we probably have some methodology to to make some guesstimates as to how that's gonna be uh programmed out because we can't come in and do all the all the roads in the county in that first year, like you're saying. Uh so when when we have that methodology and have everything worked out we can give you a maybe a little bit of a better target.

1:51:32So I guess for purposes of today, I guess you should just assume that we don't have an immediate plan to pave this road. Yes. So under that under

1:51:40the new system, uh how how how's the county paying for it?

1:51:43I I can't. There's gonna be a countywide basically property tax. Yeah, it won't apply within communities that maintain their own roads. So for example, C Ds that maintain their own roads or HOAs to maintain their own roads, their own local roads. Mm-hmm. Won't be subject to this countywide taxing district. But basically Project you know the areas of the county like this where there's no C D D or HOA maintaining the roads, that's yes, they would be subject to this additional tax, and that tax

1:52:14would then be used to pay roads that need to be paid in the county that are not in C D D's and not in HOAs to maintain their own roads. I don't know if I summarize that properly. Somebody from Project Management or Public Works can say if I summarize that info. properly but is that your general understanding

1:52:30Brad's

1:52:32put it

1:52:32very well.

1:52:33Brad, do do you know if there's been any discussion with the applicant with regards to um being able to help with improvements to the access to the property?

1:52:42So they there is a a share payment?

1:52:46Yes, I believe we have individuals online who can speak to the timing and phasing and and the pay fair share that was done and is in your finding effects that could speak

1:52:54to that.

1:52:55Okay.

1:52:55I I don't want to get the cart before the horse. Why don't we let the applicant come up and we give everybody from the public person? Yeah, I asked and nobody's coming up.

1:53:03Nobody else has come up? Yeah. Okay.

1:53:05So uh the applicant can come up and then we can get then we can ask all those questions.

1:53:12Uh my name is Anthony Marsh. Um I have ALMA associates, my partners here from Global. They're Peruvian. Um i it's I don't wanna I'm gonna try very hard not to make my um my points be circuitous, but they might be 'cause a lot of stuff floating around in my head. So just bear with me. I might have some points that or out of order.

1:53:36D did he need to state his address for the

1:53:38Okay, sure. I live at [address removed]. Um this this whole thing has been a nightmare for me um because We called the county to find all these type of things out. We were told by the county Um by the way the county's doing a great job, but we were you know, we were told it's a county maintained road. Those are that's what we heard when we called them. I I don't know exactly who said that, but my wife's the realtor. She did the a lot

1:54:08of that research. So we decided to buy based on things that we got from the county. Future land route use, this is what Pasco foresees in the future. And so we thought, okay, well we're in the middle of that. Um it's all well and good when somebody else gets to develop their uh sells their horse farm. I like horse farms, that's nice, but Um, you know, if somebody precludes us from doing something now and like ropes us in the middle of it and keeps their horse farms and their dog walking roads really nice, but then

1:54:38when their family wants to sell off they can make that little enclave or neighborhood there in the f in the future. In the meantime we get our whole deal messed up. because we saw that map said R six. We don't want R six, we want R four. Um so um We went to do that, we hired an engineer to represent us. We were told It was done. This meeting I don't know how to do this stuff. I'm I'm out I'm I'm out

1:55:08out of my element here. This is not what we do. We paid a lot of money for an engineer, Jesse Blackstock from Blackstock Engineering. He said it's all done. First meeting, breeze. No opposition. I'm like, great. When's the next meeting? Oh, in about a month, oh you're not on the agenda, you got pushed, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. I'm like, when can we list this for sale? Because that's all we want it to do is get it, clean it up, list it for sale as R6 or R4. Oh, finally you're you're approved. This guy produced

1:55:39a document signed by mister Brad Tippen and Ruth Ann Datoli. Digitally signed. with a big stupid red stamp on the bottom. Approved. We were so happy. My wife risked her license to list this property for sale as approved R4 residential. And we got a buyer right away. And again, out of com out of a little bit out of context, but the buyer, just so these people know, or whoever wants to know, is one family. They want

1:56:09to do a for lack of better term, Kennedy compound type thing. They want all their family to live there. in these eight homes. Not that that matters. I shouldn't have to espouse their position. I mean it's it's the future land use is is for this, is for houses, taxpayers, uh revenue. Uh Pasco is up and coming. It's I believe the most up and coming county in the state of Florida. There's a reason for that. And it's again I I I love the open lands, that's great. That's

1:56:39not what it's designated for. I don't want to get pigeonholed in the middle of the people that are in have been enjoying walking their dogs and not that that's not important, it is. But right behind there there's a thousand houses. I heard Mr McLaughlin, I believe his name was, say, Yeah, but we can't see that. Yeah, so that's that's the real reason. It's not the dogs that are flooding. They can't see it. There's a six foot Gabean wall and landscaping and stuff. So they can't see that. That's you know the old

1:57:09saying, Can't see it from my backyard. Who cares? I mean look at that. Um I don't want to do anything like that, but I also realize it's right next door to me, to me, to my property. I own that property now. I don't want to do anything like that. The lots that are proposed by this family that wants their eight their eight homes on there for their family uh are s seventy five and eighty feet wide. Hundred feet deep. I mean we li uh just like I believe it was Mr. Tippin said,

1:57:40Rem or I'm not sure said it. We could put fifteen homes on there. Um but again, let's not Let's not even cross that bridge until it it happens. I mean there's other There's other times for these people to complain and not to just say, Well let's just keep these people from even changing zoning even though Pasco. has earmarked this as such. It's a Euclidean zoning at this point. Maybe we'll maybe maybe we won't get approved or for eight homes or ten homes or four

1:58:10homes or six homes. They're telling you today, they're telling you, can't he just put one home? Or t maybe two? Uh No.

1:58:22How many homes you'd like next to your your farm? I understand that they've had their way of life. A lot of these people are saying, Well I've been my you know, I've been here thirty years or something. And I respect them, I do. It's not there's no disrespect to them. um you know to either McLaughlin's or Mr. Hopkins. um, who paved a road without permission from somebody it's county maintained. He put a nice little hump in it though, so It drains nicely. For him. at his own expense, Um who

1:58:52knows what he's not a road engineer. What what who knows what collateral damages are happening? Who knows if the flooding that they're talking about, which I've never seen, I've owned the property for a year. I go down there and maintain it myself. I'm out there with weed whackers trying to keep everything looking nice, nicer than it did for For them to look at. Who knows if the flooding isn't happening 'cause Mr Hopkins put nice arc to his road. We don't know. He's not an engineer, but he did that to make his to benefit himself, to make his

1:59:23life easier and his little environment nice. Uh I get it. I've been on the other end of this. I've I had a I had a landscape place in Pennsylvania. I had seven and a half acres. And I I'll be honest with you. I I hated it when somebody wanted to get next door and put, you know m I think they put mobile homes actually. I wasn't happy. But they had permission to do it. And if I want to move and move my landscape business someplace else or move my horse farm.

1:59:53Or whatever, that's that's what I'll have to do. There's places in Florida Uh where you can have your horse farm forever. They're never going to earmark it as R6. This is earmarked as R six for a reason. It's a reason. This was thought out. It wasn't so that later on you could say, Well, let's be picky and choosy. This neighbor is a nice guy and he wants he doesn't want hi his dog walking interrupted at night because this these eight single family homes are gonna impact it. And those people don't know how to drive. They're

2:00:23gonna hit your dog because they they're not as good as drivers as the other 11. Mr.

2:00:28Chippen gave you a document that was scammed approved what I was doing.

2:00:31Yes, I have that catches that. It's crazy. He said it was completely done. My wife listed it online for sale. And again, guess what? We got an offer. And when we got that offer, they started their due diligence period, and immediately Mr. Tole and Mr. Tippin said that. We don't know where you got that document from we where we got it from, but that's not my signature. And he had to do a lot of uh legwork with the with his county attorney just

2:01:02to protect the county from what happened with all this. It was just a travesty. This was I thought this was rezoning. To be clear to have it be clear in the facts. So

2:01:12It's possible that their engineer fraudulently told them that he had his owning approval. There's no evidence. First of all, Mr. Toley and Mr. Tippett have no authority to approve a rezoning. Exactly. Per sign approval. The the Planning Commission and Board of County Commissioners approve rezoning. Right. The document would have had to be signed by the chair of the Board of County Commissioners.

2:01:32Exactly. We learned

2:01:33that later. There was no such document. So That's how we know the it doesn't matter, even if Mr. Tippen and M or Mr Tula they didn't sign it, but even if they had it wouldn't have been binding because

2:01:43I understand it. Yes sir, make sure you under

2:01:45Do you have it? Did we see it?

2:01:47Uh yeah. I I think it was sent to um Mr. Namis, do you have a copy?

2:01:56I can try to find the document if that's what you'd like me to do.

2:02:03He's been here and have given testimony before us before, Mr. Blackstock, yes.

2:02:07Well you want to speak to it, Mr. Tipp Tippen.

2:02:10Sure, I can I can I can describe basically the document that was shown to me looked like it was pieces of different types of documents that the county issues, including what could have been uh like a copy paste of a signature block from a different document. Uh but the document itself that he showed us was not something that we would have ever issued.

2:02:33I'd be interested to see it.

2:02:37Actually in my own career had a document for that being said, that professional engineer would lose his license instantly and probably forever if he did such a thing. So I'm having a hard time imagining that that's

2:02:55license he he banned it. In April. We've been working with him for New York.

2:03:01Two meetings ago. Jesse Blackstock? Yes, sir. He we had a rezoning on New York Avenue for commercial, and I remember suggesting that they should not have C2 uses, they should have C1 uses. He was the representative.

2:03:13He flew the coupe. He left an an an architect friend of mine, not friend, associate that recommended him with six jobs. He's not showing up to Tampa. He's telling people we'll be there. We're rezoning should be a piece of cake. He he he's not he's leaving he's no show, no call. Nobody knows where he's at. We don't know what's going on. Anyway, he was here and somehow he's still doing business. Check his license. My wife checked it. Angela, is his license still in the closed. His license is closed. He's operating before you without a license. Um check

2:03:43it out, but um in the meantime I'll be glad to

2:03:47issue a false document

2:03:50documents that the county issued.

2:03:51No. He was surprised as we were because what happened was then when the owner, this this family, really nice group group of Indian people who want to live on this property, he they said uh we did our due diligence and we were told there there is no rezoning. This guy Said all done, all finished. You can go ahead and list your property. Again, that was our only thing that we wanted to do buy the property, clean it up. Make it look attractive for yes for more people that would like to live where you live.

2:04:21It's beautiful. We wanted other people would like a chance to live there. We're not thirty or forty houses across from them.

2:04:29So sir sir Mr. Moody asked you a specific question that I think you've answered. Let's you're you've run out of time, so I wanted to confine your comments to answering generous with time because to answering the question that Mr. Moody asked you. Has he answered your question? Yes. Okay. Thank you very much.

2:04:46Sir, you said you live near nearby uh the or next adjacent to that property?

2:04:50I do not. I live uh in Dunedin.

2:04:52Okay.

2:04:53I I live in Dennis.

2:05:00This rezoning today is your intent just to flip the property to somebody else.

2:05:06It's already under contract. Sorry. To the person who wants See, we could have asked a Euclidean without timing phasing, just saying

2:05:13how do we know that your buyer is going to do eight units?

2:05:16Well he he's his his engineer's on the online with us too. That's what he we have we have a plan.

2:05:24Black stock. who apparently is fairly talented, although he's a he's a shyster. Has has developed uh he's developed a a perfect parcel that fits nicely. I mean developed a f perfect parcels that fit nicely and that's what they want to do. And also you know, sir, uh Mr. Moody does you know that they can only put the eight houses because the way the lots fit uh with with um turnaround for uh fire rescue. And things it's

2:05:55just the only way it can fit. Like it's two points what is two point seven one acres. Um you could put ten or twelve or fifteen because of density, but you can't fit them. So it'll never pass

2:06:05through.

2:06:08Right, you know, density, but we haven't seen that here. And some engineers are more creative than others.

2:06:26Okay. Yeah, that's good. Just stop us when we get crazy.

2:06:29Um the because the uh i i there I The the the plan um D we have a we have a copy of it, right? Of the

2:06:42You have that?

2:06:44Okay. It doesn't matter. If we rezon this today, where he there's nothing that binds this rezoning to that plan. If someone can figure out how to fit the twelve lots on there, then the Euclidean zoning district would allow for it.

2:07:01There's no voluntarily on deed restriction. At

2:07:05this point though we're

2:07:05not going to be able to do that.

2:07:08We do have a plan that fits and that I I I paid attention to that. It was very interesting to me what you two were going back and forth. Again, this is not my belly wick, I don't know anything about it. All we're asking is for nothing more than Pasco Pasco already foresaw. in the in zoning this way. It goes right through the McLaughlins and I understand the

2:07:26comprehensive plan says just because a that you may qualify to rezone because of your underlying future land use designation, there's no obligation for the county to rezone. And that's why we hold these hearings exactly. And we listen to concerns and some and it's not the sole Uh criteria by which we rezoned it is the future land use designation. One of the things we do look at is roads. We look at compatibility of uses.

2:07:57So those are the things we're going to be considering here when we make our decision.

2:08:02Absolutely. And um that when you're doing that, um Again, the uh The bridge will be crossed through the planning when they decide what you know how many houses they're asking to do, but no more than the eight fit there to make it anything anything close to nice. You can't turn around with the easement. There's an easement through there, 60-foot easement, there's setbacks to consider, all those things added up to these eight homes. I actually want to see if we can make it nine homes, because I thought that would be more attractive, but people would be even more up. arms

2:08:32with that. It won't work. Eight homes. I would submit to you that any uh uh transportation impact would be di de minimis at at best. I mean you're you're talking about uh not not even generating the hundred trips that um would require more you know f uh processes for approval. Um I think some Somebody actually said it. I think it was Liam said uh you know it six trips per per day. B

2:09:02Brad mentioned it, yes.

2:09:04Or somebody said that. I mean, I it's it's great. I mean I guess the neighbors don't go to Walmart, but they try to characterize the new homeowners as like they they gotta go to Walmart and everything. Like so, you know, I I don't know what that's all about. But um, you know, people are gonna live there, they're gonna live there. They're gonna pay taxes. They're gonna enjoy Pasco. Pasco's enjoyable. Um that is a

2:09:26nice road. Yeah. We need to get some follow our rules of procedure. I think this I mean he didn't ask for extra time. I I d I Wait. If he's answering questions from the Planning Commission, that's one thing, but I think he's run out of time at some point too for his rebuttal.

2:09:42Yeah, we've been

2:09:43we've been But I mean I d I d wanna make sure the Planning Commission's Understood. Understood.

2:09:52Yeah, again this isn't my belly, we're gonna apologize. Okay.

2:09:55Um the Hold on do we have any other questions from the any commissioners?

2:09:59The only other question I I had which was deferred uh from before was regards to cost share on on uh traffic. Right.

2:10:07But I think staff does need to issue a clarification on that because I think your agenda amendment may have an inaccurate number on it.

2:10:15Yeah, we did as we

2:10:15were

2:10:15going back through we identified that there

2:10:17was

2:10:17an error in the in the fair share of payment that was listed there. Uh and we have not even had an opportunity to discuss that with the But it is I believe what was in the documents was nineteen thousand. I believe the actual fair share payment would be closer to sixty-one thousand. So we would need to have that discussion and talk with them for a minute. Make sure that that's still the

2:10:38engineer still here? Cool. Yes. Can she tell us roughly what it cost per foot to pave this road? I can check on that, I have no idea.

2:10:48Well, okay.

2:10:53A online. They they could probably answer this question, but they may actually know the cost of paving Tupper Road because that's how they calculate the fair share. So could we let them potentially answer that question? Sure, please.

2:11:04Yeah, that would be S and Khalil, I believe, is speaking to that.

2:11:09Yeah, in afternoon this is Asin. Um I have my colleague then also here. We worked on the project. So there was an RMA, we caught it too late before the hearing, you know, correct it. So Brack just verified the Fair Share does go up to About $61,000. That's using a dollar amount of $262,000 per mile. Well we got from the In public works.

2:11:41become seven person.

2:11:45Yeah, it is um

2:11:56number of trips or is that based on their s their frontage?

2:12:00Number of units?

2:12:03I'm gonna ask uh uh Mr. Ben uh Dalvo to answer that question. He came up with twenty seven percent. So I'm guess it's based on or he clarifies based on the number of projects.

2:12:17I

2:12:17think it's based on the feet.

2:12:19No, it's based on the number of units. That's what our code is. It's gotta be

2:12:22units because if it's trips per day, right now it we said there was some testimony that there were eleven lots current eleven homes on Tupper Road, or now we want to have eight. Well this is a pro a proposed increase of almost seventy-three percent Correct.

2:12:42So we would bear more cost when developing, which would be great for them. They'll get a road, we'll pay for it.

2:12:47Well no to be clear, y they're not getting a road, you're you'd be paying sixty one thousand toward a future road improvement, but ultimately the county would have to come up with a difference to to pay the road.

2:12:59And they pay taxes on it.

2:13:03Well, I don't know what you mean by they pay taxes on it.

2:13:07Yeah, yeah, they may uh well the entire county may be part of this MSTU that pays taxes for to pay roads. But you'd be paying basically extra because of your because of the additional impact you're generating. And you pay for this plus your taxes.

2:13:23Yeah, okay, whatever comes out to I think the paved road will be nicer um for everybody. I think dogs can still be walked on the side of the paved road. I don't think anybody's gonna hit a hit dog on a paved road or there's still edge edges, the margins, the uh what do you call parkway? There's nice there's nice areas

2:13:38So to be clear, 'cause so since you just heard this number for the first time, you're okay with the revised calculation of your fair share?

2:13:44Oh yeah. Whatever it comes out to, we'll be paying it. Okay. That's all we're doing here. All we're doing here is trying to trying to

2:13:51Okay, are any other questions from up here?

2:13:53Also there's two entrances, you know, to get there.

2:13:56Mr. Moody did ask staff how it's cut. I

2:13:59think

2:14:00I got enough. That's kind of game's based on the project traffic they were about cold traffic. So it would be project traffic by

2:14:10project traffic plus the existing

2:14:11background

2:14:12traffic. How's that 27%? Should

2:14:16be a larger percentage.

2:14:17That's a much larger percentage. If we're each unit is what, nine or ten trips per IT? Is it not?

2:14:28I'm gonna ask Mr. Lane to speak with that he entry

2:14:31the application. I'm not sure I've been another one here about transportation planner. Um yes no S Core Act. Um I I basically used the daily trip the daily development trips over the um existing uh AADT plus development uh trips and uh it came out to be uh Uh from up to twenty-seven percent.

2:14:59Okay, but Ben you're not answering the question. How many ex how many exist what is the existing trips on the roadway?

2:15:08Uh the existing trips Okay, on the roadway um I'm sorry. Um the the existing chips on the roadway so uh roughly about two hundred and eighty three uh vehicles per day.

2:15:22How many? Two eighty three.

2:15:23Uh two hundred two hundred and eighty three vehicles per day.

2:15:27Okay. How's how's that determined? Man, how's that determined?

2:15:33Um that's determined based on thirty thirty um uh addresses um uh along that uh that roadway

2:15:42there. But we've had okay hold on. The testimony in the room today is that there's 11 houses on the road. You're saying there's 30, so can someone clarify if there's 30 or 11?

2:15:54Beyond that intersection is talking about. Tupper is longer than just these people's little enclave.

2:15:59There is a limit there's a lot of things.

2:16:10Yes.

2:16:10I think four. And uh when I did because there's

2:16:23That's fine. Um little side street. But they don't use the rubber. Right.

2:16:34Yeah,

2:16:35they don't have access to the No they do. Downey Place, Roden Place, Laffridge Place, they all connect to Tupper Road.

2:16:44Actually connect to Tupper Road, that's the Dowry and uh and uh what's that Roden?

2:16:50Roden.

2:16:51Okay. Really?

2:16:54Okay.

2:16:55So the eleven I think is just the northern portion of Tupper.

2:17:01All right, but correct. I would agree if these people have access to the road that we should be able to assign traffic to them. That's why I'm not sure.

2:17:09So he's comfortable with his answer? Yes. Okay. Absolutely. Sounds like everybody's comfortable with the number of trips that are using the road and the fair share of calculation.

2:17:18The only other question I would have is was that calculation based on the proposed eight units or the allowable twelve unit? units for R four.

2:17:27Uh that would be eight units in the proposed thirty units.

2:17:33However, the the zoning change could I know with this gentleman is saying it's not logically possible, but the zoning would allow for twelve units if an engineer was creative enough.

2:17:47But yes, then if if that's the case then we have to uh reassess uh that that bigger share cost.

2:17:56Do you do you have a I know that's a long calculation, but do you have a rough idea what kind of a difference that was? Does

2:18:00your share get assessed at rezoning or at development?

2:18:14Prior to

2:18:15site

2:18:15plan

2:18:15approval.

2:18:16Correct.

2:18:17So it wouldn't if we rezon it, he doesn't have to write a chapter there.

2:18:22So if if they my guess is if they came in for a site plane with twelve units they'd they'd adjust fair shares. Okay.

2:18:30The uh I wanted to sh t show you that you said you're pulling up the dock that we submitted along with the timing phasing and all that stuff. If you could just show them that, you're gonna see how i you can't have an entrance. I mean i you you have to be able to swing a a fire engine around in there. There's it's some of the things that I'm gonna do.

2:18:48The question is, do you understand that if you came in with more than eight units your fair share may increase?

2:18:53Yes. Oh we were Willing to pay whatever the actual calculated fair share is, whether it's nineteen thousand or sixty thousand, if it goes up to a hundred thousand, we'll pay it. We'll pay it. Well

2:19:04either he or his buyer is gonna have to pay it. One of them is gonna have to pay

2:19:08What I'm saying is it's i y right, we're in a contract with somebody right now. I uh they'll end up paying it. But he said whatever it takes to, you know, make that thing work. But it is what it is.

2:19:20That's all the answer we need. We don't need a big long answer, okay? Yeah, that it is what we're

2:19:23doing.

2:19:24I'm trying to get to the end here, so let's let's just we understand. Are there any more questions? If not, okay, let's decide what we can do. Well I would

2:19:33like to know if I got an answer to my

2:19:35question about the main teen right-wing map. Do you have any more questions of this applicant?

2:19:39I don't have any more questions of him. I have a quick down, sir. Thank you. Thank you.

2:19:45I'm gonna send that document if you don't have the fraudulent thing. I know you're interested in it. Watch out for Black Soc. Yeah. Understood.

2:19:53Good afternoon again. I just got an answer back from my surveyor. There is no maintaining the right-of-way out there. And we don't often do that unless something like this comes up or there becomes a question. Then our team, our survey team goes out with the public works people, the that maintain the road, public works goes out and flags the boundaries of what they've maintained. And our guys survey it. That's how we come up with maintained right-of-way maps. So there's probably a lot of roads like this that are maintained by the county, but we don't actually have right-of-way, I mean maintained maps.

2:20:24So that question. So according to my guys, there is no currently no uh maintained right-way maps.

2:20:33Okay. I agree with Ms. Smith though, it doesn't affect the ownership. We still own what we maintain. So

2:20:43Okay.

2:20:45So do we have uh let's let's have a motion for the per s for the uh purpose of conversation after the motion and the second.

2:20:55I'll move to deny. And hope for a second for a second discussion.

2:21:02Okay. So I have a motion to deny with uh with a second. And now for uh discussion, is there any discussion on the motion?

2:21:12The reason I went ahead and denied this is that when you look at this particular project here, you see a group of people residents that would like to maintain a certain lifestyle in their community. Although the argument would be, hey, look to the front or to the south, I believe, is a number of homes already there. And that's true. I used to have a friend that lived in that area. He no longer lives here, but nonetheless, he did have a home there. And there are some very beautiful homes in that community.

2:21:42But I go back to the fact that you have a person who would like to develop his property. And I have no objection to that. In fact, maybe in the future the people that are sitting here today that have advocated for the lifestyle that they would like to maintain Well someday want to do the same thing. I would hope not. I hope that this area stays to a certain degree rural. Some call it horse farms. Well I used to live in Kentucky and I guarantee you those are not horse farms. They might be country homes, but definitely not homeless

2:22:13farms. But I do understand the fact that There are those in the county, and this is an area, that would like to maintain that lifestyle, and that's the reason why I cannot support this.

2:22:27Okay.

2:22:29John

2:22:29you're the

2:22:30maker. I well I can I just make a comment go ahead. If you're disagreeing with staff's recommendation there's an attachment in your packets you're gonna have to identify we're gonna get there. Okay.

2:22:41I the the reason is I don't find this proposal to be compatible with the current um pattern of land use and I would Say in the area, but I'm going to say accessed by Tupper Road, although they back up to a more dense MPUD zoned area, there's no cr there's no cross-connection, which maybe Commissioner Starkey will ask about. We've got a situation with

2:23:11a road that although if rezoned and if developed, they'll Put up a prop share to pave that road, but at the end of the day We're adding, although the county's the the county's calculation is 27%. If we just look at along that stretch of Tupper Road that runs east-west where the 11 houses are, that comes up to more by 40% increase in traffic by my quick calculation back here. And there's

2:23:42no mechanism for this road to get paved. Maybe the MSTU will cover getting this road paved next year, but maybe it'll be thirty years. We don't know the answer to that question. And until somebody can come and show me that the road's gonna get paved and that it's a safe situation, the drainage is going to get fixed. Um I don't think it's a reasonable

2:24:05proposal.

2:24:09Okay, so from what I'm hearing, and you tell me if I'm wrong, Mr. Moody, your recommended denial based on number one, the proposed change is not consistent with the existing land use pattern in the area. Um

2:24:25The and not sure about number five. Number five says approach will adversely affect living conditions in the immediate and surrounding neighborhoods. Does that apply?

2:24:36Well, I think if they s these people have limited roadway capacity, they're voluntarily, some of them voluntarily maintaining the road themselves, whether that be legally, illegally permitted or otherwise, but they're doing it.

2:24:52Okay, so I'm hearing that one and then number six is there's not adequate access from a standard roadway. I'm assuming that's a Well that

2:25:00is that's the crux of

2:25:01my argument.

2:25:05Um I'm looking at the others quickly.

2:25:17I don't know if you think number eleven applies the property. If you wanted to stop at number six we could stop there. It's up to you.

2:25:24That's fine. We we actually haven't heard any testimony about water or sewer. I think one of the neighbors said there's a sewer line. Is there sewer into this property? It's right up front. I'll start if you were. How about water? Yeah. Right there. I made a motion.

2:25:40I mean if your main if your main concern is compatibility in the road, I think you'd be site number one Mm-hmm. Number Six. That's kind of the crux of the issue. Would you agree?

2:25:53Yes. I think

2:25:54five is

2:25:54absolutely five is impacts it also.

2:25:57So one, five, and six, is that your motion? Yes. Okay.

2:26:02Okay, so we have a motion which includes the reasons for that motion. And uh d do we have any other comment?

2:26:09That I I would just say that I don't necessarily agree with the compatibility argument, but for the row condition I I would support Mr. Moody's Motion.

2:26:20Okay.

2:26:21I'd have to say the same. I don't um necessarily agree with the compatibility part, but the road number six definitely I'd support.

2:26:30Well I guess you all kind of have to have consensus on the reasons too. Um so I guess Mr. Moody, are you willing to Amend your motion to just site number six. Does anybody else have anything you want to add here before we amend the motion?

2:26:49The motion on the floor is one, five, and six. But uh do you wanna vote on that motion or do you want to amend? You tell me.

2:26:56I

2:26:56you know.

2:26:57Well I think one of the biggest problems that this property has, and I think you alluded it to it to it before, John, was that, you know, a property may be maybe assigned a res six designation or S4 or whatever it might be. That doesn't mean it's mature. It's not doesn't mean it's ready to in the zoning right now is agricultural. So obviously there has to be another step. determine whether it's suitable for that underlying res

2:27:27designation, that flu. In my opinion, I don't think it's mature. I I don't think it's compatible, and I can't think compatibility is a big issue because uh those if it had a connection to the properties to the south, then I would feel more inclined to approve it. But it doesn't. It's completely separate. And everything else around there is agriculture. And uh so I I just don't

2:27:57think it's ready ready for it. I mean I think Obviously he the owner has the right to develop the property. Um, maybe if they want to put a compound on there, if that's what they want to do, then they can maybe they can figure out a way to do that under the current situation. I don't know. But that's not for me to figure out. I just know that um Yeah, unfortunately. So

2:28:23Mr. Chairman I just clarify that comment with Denise. I just want to confirm. So whether or not it's a it's a compound, I assume is irrelevant for zoning for preventatory. I mean if they have eight units, it doesn't matter whether it's put they're platted separately as as individual lots or not.

2:28:39So um all zoning districts with the exception of multifamily and mobile home park require that each unit be on its own individual lot. So AR, for example, the way it's zoned right now, one dwelling unit per acre, each unit has to be on its own entire. Okay, so they

2:28:57they'd have to subdivide this. That's

2:28:59that's correct. Even if

2:29:00they're doing it as a compound.

2:29:01That's correct.

2:29:02They're gonna have to have eight.

2:29:03I mean they can they can maybe build a house that has more than one kitchen completely interconnected, no tenant separation, no common party wall, and they would all live in the same house and You know, this wing of the house is this person's and that wing is the other.

2:29:20No.

2:29:21No matter how you configure the ownership.

2:29:23That's correct.

2:29:23Okay.

2:29:27Um so I I think compatibility for me, I I wouldn't want to delete that 'cause I think that for me that's the main issue. I mean the roads is obviously an issue for if you had another There are eight eight properties on there, sixteen cars. Um so I'd leave it the way it was.

2:29:45Well the motion on the on that I think was seconded was for one, five, and six, is that correct?

2:29:50That's my opinion, yes.

2:29:51Okay.

2:29:53Well, I like how you said it, uh, Chuck, 'cause I was trying to figure out how to express that is a 'cause it's a challenge because you know, I've had the opportun I had the opportunity a few years ago to visit Mr. Hopkins property and it's beautiful out there but I could see in twenty I don't know how long But I could see that area being developed, but sure it's really not mature yet because of the road. Right. And I would also agree if there was a connection from the south then it probably

2:30:23would make sense. Yeah,

2:30:24because then what road wouldn't be an issue? Right, exactly. So, yeah.

2:30:31So

2:30:31with that being said Commissioner Starkey would say this is a perfect example of why we should require independence.

2:30:40I'm not I'm also not following your discussion. Can I please ask a question about your discussion?

2:30:46It's to the planning commission now. This is the same thing.

2:30:52So can I actually stop the same thing?

2:30:54Staff can explain it. Staff can explain it to you after the meeting. Is it we can't take any more public comment? This is to the the public hearing's closed. This is to the planning commission. This this discussion.

2:31:07Plus this will

2:31:08this will be going to the Board of County Commissioners too, and you can have every opportunity to ask questions and make more comments there. Uh this is a recommending body on this item.

2:31:18Yeah, this is it we're not the final say, so All right, so I I I guess we've had discussion and we've had a motion and a second. There's no further discussion, I take it. So all in favor of the motion signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. All opposed, like sign. Motion carries.

2:31:40Okay.