Conditional Use (Regular) – Ace Cheval, Inc/VB BTS, LLC/T-Mobile South, LLC – 195-Foot Above-Ground-Level Monopole Wireless Communications Facility (WCF) in a MPUD Master Planned Unit Development District – South Central Pasco County – On the North Side of 20 Mile Level Road, Approximately 1,550 Feet East of Collier Parkway File Number PDD23-CU11

53:03Denise was the entire planning commission. That's here today at the last meeting?

53:08The entire planning commission that was here today was at the last meeting, yes.

53:11I was not, but I'm not gonna vote, so unless you're I apologize, you're right. But there's five of us. But the chairman votes? Yeah.

53:20Yeah, no, but y you would only vote if there was a talk. Right. Okay. But you're you're I just wanted to make sure Denise is asking whether you need a full presentation. I was

53:28watching it on TV so I don't need one.

53:30That would seem to be only be necessary if one of you wasn't here.

53:35Okay. Uh but I'm I'm just basically gonna state w why we're back over here. So there were several um um the applicant uh provided I don't want to speak for the applicant of course, but the applicant provided I can provide um some um professional information as to property values related to location of communications towers. Um there was also uh a uh a question from the Planning Commission um regarding whether um the

54:07the the person who owned the golf course had some information as to whether the um amount of mu uh the the lease would assist the golf course. Um and I believe there was one last question which is if the tower would could be uh located on the county owned property.

54:29We were not at the time able to get the lease in David's hands to was David able to read the

54:36lease? I d I was able to read the lease and there's probably a difference of opinion between me and the applicant about whether it has a non-compute or not. But it to a certain extent it's irrelevant because Denise contacted the parks department and asked them whether they'd be willing to do a lease on the park property. And the answer she got back was.

54:54Irrefutably no.

54:57Now, that was before you didn't give him his park impact fee, so I don't know if he changes.

55:03But at the time his answer was no, uh that he has no interest in doing a lease for a new tower run. So the county as a proper owner does not even want to enter in a lease for the park site.

55:15That's correct. Okay.

55:16Okay.

55:19So um sounds like no presentation, so I will uh we will turn it over to the applicant.

55:25Okay,

55:25very

55:26good.

55:41Good afternoon, I'm Mattanaya John, 935 Main Street, Suite C4, Safety Harbor, Florida, 34695. I have taken an oath. I also have with me today, supporting my presentation, Byron Elkins, an RF engineer with Team Mobile South. Noelle Muller, uh from the real estate department at T Mobile South. So do you have a qu any questions for her? I have David Talby, a Florida licensed property appraiser. Online, though he I may have lost him because he's nine time zones ahead of us. Um,

56:12Bill Place, the owner of a Chaval.

56:15For

56:15the record

56:16he is on.

56:17Okay, thank you. Um let's see. I think I have my I think I have everyone from my list. Alright, good. Alright. So as last time when I came before you, I'm coming before you today for a conditional use of proving 195 foot tall monopoles communication tower. Um upon parcel two zero two six one nine zero zero zero zero zero zero three zero Zero. Zero

56:48zero four one. And this is the golf course maintenance facility. Let's see if this will work. It is not. Or maybe it is.

56:58Next slide, please. Uh just again as a refresher, you can see the plantation palm and all maps I show you today up will be north. You can see the Plantation Palms Country Club on the north-central portion of the maps. Uh you can see the Land O' Lakes Recreation Center immediately to the south and west of Plantation Palms. Collier Parkway is the large diagonal road that that's running along the western side of the map. Next please.

57:29The yellow arrow again, just to by way to remind you, uh is the location of the monopole.

57:37The purple area is the parks property. This is the property that your staff has confirmed to you that they are not willing to lease. Next.

57:46The amber line is high voltage power lines. Again, you heard this last month now.

57:53And then the gray arrow is the existing flagpole that's being replaced. Um I will go through the next slides rather quickly. Next please. These are just closer aerials. Next please.

58:09Next slide please. Again, just getting closer again.

58:14Uh this is an aerial showing that the only tower within fifteen hundred feet, which is a radius under your code, is the flagpole tower. You saw this last moment. Next.

58:28Uh this is just your zoning and future land use map. Next. Next.

58:36This is the picture of a monopole style communication tower that you saw last month. Monopole is a type of tower that has a single support pole with no external guy wires or ironworks. There are external antennas mounted at the top on a head frame. This is important because it provides the space and air circulation necessary for the top-end equipment and antennas that T-Mobile plans to use to be able to function. This is just the compound plan from the record you saw last month. Next.

59:03And this is the elevation sheet. Next.

59:09I'm going to be showing you revised photo simulations because last time and I believe it was Commissioner Pontlitz that asked me about alternate designs, but I apologize if it might be Commissioner Poole. I know you guys have moved around a little bit since last time I was here. I had someone over here. But I was asked to show the monopine design. I was also asked about a bell tower which we feel would be the least compatible design that that you could have there. Um and then we I also discussed

59:39a shrouded monopole. You asked me to um Show that information to you so we have revised our photo simulations. So out of the visible simulations and again two of my simulations last month you could not see at all. This is the first one off of Sago Sago Point Sago Point Court. Next please. Of course, you have your monopole design, and again you can see those high voltage power lines in the background. You can also see that the trees behind the houses, there's a scrubby buffer back there, are able to provide partial buffering in

1:00:10the range of from this angle about half to two-thirds of the monopole. They would be more pronounced if you were closer to those trees, say in the backyards of the houses. The other thing is that the bulk and scale of the monopole scales down to objects in the foreground. Such as that lamppost off to the left and can be completely buffered by objects in the foreground, such as that tree off to the left. Next. This is the shrouded monopole, so essentially it's the same fundamental architecture except in this case a round shroud is placed around the antenna array. This

1:00:40allows a full antenna array to be provided, but since there's no top and bottom, it allows air to circulate through. So it's kind of a compromise step between the flagpole unipole design that historically was so popular and I miss dearly for what it's worth. and the full monopole design. Next. This is a bell tower design that was brought up. We submit this would be out of context. This would make sense on a very large

1:01:10on a church campus or a school campus where you would expect a corillion to exist. Next please. And then this is the monopine tree, and I the monopine camouflage. And I've deployed monopines many times over the course of my 10 years, and I will try not to make your eyes glaze over. I apologize. Um we just submit that this would be out of context in this particular instance. Next please.

1:01:35This is Bermuda Bay Court. Next. Monopole. Next. Shrouded Monopole. Bell Tower. And monopan. Next. This is Spaniard Hill Lane, monopole. Shrouded monopole. Bell Tower and Monopie.

1:01:57Uh this is um SIM5. This was from the south. This was just this was still in here and I redid these. Next please. You saw the RF propagation maps. I will not take you through the pain of discussing uh capacity and how we fight the same battle that the county does with its roads. As more people move into the state, more people use the state's roads. We've they also use the cellular networks. I spent some time on that last time, but I do want to show you the 5G band because um and next please. We showed

1:02:27you raw coverage from the 4G band, but the 5G band is the technology that's being that they are moving towards. And also everywhere the 5G band covers, that's less strain on the 4G band. that is currently handling the bulk of the traffic. Next please. Next.

1:02:47Next.

1:02:50This is scarling data showing population it's showing density of use. You saw that last month. Next please.

1:02:57Next please, that's capacity charting. Next please this is 4G band coverage. You would see expansion to the north, but we discussed this last month. Next please.

1:03:08Next please. Okay, so this is five G band and what we did um Just for the sake of comparing apples to apples was uh T Mobile modeled five G band coverage from a monopole located next to If you were able to theoretically build a monopole next to the flagpole tower that's down on Parks property, again, it's been mooted by Parks' position. But one thing I'll keep I would like to bring your attention to is with this map, you see a horizontal line and then

1:03:38there's um a curved line that extends uh with with straight lines coming down from it. That's the next subdivision north. that horizontal line that you see above the yellow and the green from our marker that has the blue arrow next to it. is the limit of plantation palms. And you can see from the parks property, if that were even an option. the coverage that T-Mobile is trying to establish, that is your next generation coverage that we're moving towards, and we will eventually all be on

1:04:08all the time. and then also is soaking up the majority of the traffic, doesn't even cover all of plantation palms. Next please. And that's the gap area in the 5G coverage that would exist. I will show you an aerial later showing that there's no places in that area where you'd be able to put a second tower to establish coverage. Next, please.

1:04:31This is the map showing um from the loc showing the monopole from the location as presented to you in the record. And you can see that reliable indoor coverage can reach the northern portion of plantation palms, and reliable outdoor coverage can ri reach the subdivision to the north. Next, please.

1:04:53Next please. This is an aerial showing the area where that gap and 5G service would exist if we were theoretically to the south. Um that is all the new RF information that I have for you. Do you have any questions for Mr. Elkins with T Mobile?

1:05:10I do.

1:05:11Absolutely. One moment, let me have you come up. Mr. Elkins, would you please come to the

1:05:15lectern? Is there any radio frequency reason two towers can two towers be constructed next to each other?

1:05:26Come on up.

1:05:28Or within a certain proximity of each other. We get I'm sorry, we gotta give

1:05:33your name and address, please. Yes, sorry. Uh my name is Byron Elkins, senior RF engineer with Team Mobile. I have been sworn. Uh my address our address is uh 5901 Benjamin Center Drive.

1:05:46Thank you.

1:05:48Um Commissioner Moody, if you would please restate your question.

1:05:50Sure. So is there any technical radio frequency reason? Is there is there a certain requirement for separation between towers? Can two towers be constructed next to each other, Verizon on one tower, T Mobile on another tower?

1:06:04From a frequency standpoint, no, but from an obstruction, yes. So we typically don't build them right beside each other. Um that's within uh ten feet, fifty feet, things like that. Um

1:06:16Is there a certain distance where obstruction wouldn't be a

1:06:19problem? Uh anything beyond that point would not be an obstruction. That's all.

1:06:31Thank you.

1:06:33Um again I submit that as moot because the county's not willing to actually lease it. Also

1:06:40no the County Parks Department isn't willing to lease it. County Parks Department is not an elected body and is not autonomous. Understood, but this is still gonna go to the Board of Commissioners. They get to make that decision.

1:06:57Absolutely. But I would ask for a decision based on ha how this application meets your code. I

1:07:05I understand. And I didn't haven't made up my mind yet.

1:07:08And if I may also bring to your attention as a general policy, the your code but more importantly codes in general discourage what are called tower farms. So placing multiple towers very close together. There's examples of those in say Atlanta when you're going to

1:07:26It wouldn't be my preferred case either. I mean we have an ordinance that requires co-location and in this case you've told us it's impossible to co locate and the owner of the tower is unwilling to make the accommodations so that you can co-locate and I would tell you that I don't know what the outcome of this particular case is, but in the future we need to look at what we can do about that ordinance to make sure we get the co-location that we desire.

1:07:54All right. Please continue.

1:07:56No I had. All right. Um next please.

1:08:03This is again just a diagram showing why the flagpole design towers don't work. You saw this last month. Next, please. Plantation Palms, HOA obviously provides support. You have an email that was in the record from September 2021 from the president of Plantation Palms, sitting with the Master Association is supportive. You also now have a sworn affidavit from Mr. Hammond, who is the president who sent that email, also attesting that

1:08:33the HOA is. Supportive uh the HOA is supportive of the uh project. I can read that to you, it's also in your record.

1:08:43Okay. Thank you.

1:08:47Next, I'd like to talk about property value and here's the affidavit of Mr. Hammond. Next, I'd like to talk about property value. Um you have in your record a property value study letter. I have paper copies if you would like to have a copy in your hands as Mr. Talde comes up and talks to you and gives you a brief.

1:09:04I'll just clarify one thing, Denise. Some of what is being stated is in the record, I'm not actually seeing it.

1:09:09Yes, that's accurate. Um so let me clarify Denise Hernandez. Um the these items came in after.

1:09:22Well

1:09:22I

1:09:22think we

1:09:23need somebody to pass them out.

1:09:30Okay. Move to receive and file. Second.

1:09:35Our motion to receive and file in a second. Further discussion, all in favor? Opposed? Motion carry.

1:09:45Property value study letter. Some things.

1:10:00I also am providing the affidavit of Mr. Hinlem. Um and then if you need a paper copy of the revised RF maps.

1:10:10Mm-hmm. Anything you showed on the PowerPoint is gonna be part of the record. I just I was more concerned that you were referring to things that we didn't have in in your PowerPoint or in our online agreement. That's my concern. Absolutely.

1:10:31Just play enough.

1:10:34At this time I'd like to bring up Mr. Tolby so he can just discuss his property value study letter. Mr. Tolby, please state your name and address for the record.

1:10:42David Tolby, T-A-U-L-B-E-E, 609 East Jackson Street, Tampa 33602.

1:10:53Good afternoon. I've been Sworn. Um what you have before you is a compilation of many years, probably ten plus years of research and analysis and data that I've compiled. With respect to um Property valuations, mostly residential valuations that are approximate cellular communication towers. I have studied this issue for about 25 years. I take it very seriously. I've studied bell towers, I've studied stealth t stealth towers such as pine

1:11:23trees, and I've studied monopole towers. I've studied towers that you're it's at issue today. So I can tell you that there is not any market data. There is no market data. from multiple counties throughout west central Florida, Central Florida that indicate this tower is gonna have any negative impact on property values. There is no data to support it. Anecdotally you may hear that it will, but there is no specific data. In your report there, that compilation, you can see

1:11:53I've got multiple examples where I've talked to owners, brokers, realtors, that these towers have had no impact on a transaction. And I also supplement my study. with conversations with property appraisers throughout West Central Florida, Central Florida. To include two of your own appraisers, Dan Villa and Chris Poe, Who have never made A reduction or even an increase in a property assessment because of proximity to a cell tower. And you ask yourself, well, how can that be? Well

1:12:24they do the same research I do. It's based on market data and sales. There's no indication that that this tower is going to have any impact whatsoever on property values.

1:12:36All right. Can I ask you a question? You may, yes sir. So the affidavit from Mr. Hammond, and I don't think Mr. Hammond's an expert, but he's he speculates that if the golf course were to close, that it would decrease property values in the neighborhood. Do you have any thoughts on that?

1:12:54I do not. Okay.

1:12:58With regards to property appraisers, um, do property appraisers take into account in uh your experience any other features like high tension power lines or other

1:13:09They do, they do. Your I mean your own appraiser, Dan Vila made a reduction I think for a a property was a s you know, joining or near a sewer treatment plant. So they do. Power lines not so much, but other other intrusive things like sewer treatment plants, sure.

1:13:24Okay.

1:13:28Alright. I think we that's what we were talking about when we said substantial competent evidence earlier. So thank you very much. Thank

1:13:39you. And if I may just ask a couple questions for the record. Um Mr. Talby, um is your resume included with your report? Yes,

1:13:50ma'am.

1:13:51Are you licensed as a property appraiser in the state of Florida? Order.

1:13:54Yes, on a certified general appraiser, correct.

1:13:57And has your analysis included in your report been based upon um the press generally accepted best practices for property appraisers in the state of Florida as you understand your profession?

1:14:09Not only my state of Florida but the profession in general, yes. Thank you sir.

1:14:12Can I ask you one more question? I asked this question at the last meeting, but I'll just you're probably gonna say I don't know, but has there anybody ever done a study about whether Poor sell service can decrease property values.

1:14:27Interesting question. I had a uh I had a hearing in Hernando County two months ago, like this, and one of the commissioners First time I ever heard this, chose not to purchase his house because he did not have quality self-service in the house.

1:14:45So but you're not aware of anybody's own.

1:14:46So you know, I I think it you know it could be a personal preference issue, but I you know, personally I find that m you know, more and more homes are using more and more devices and so forth. They want connectivity.

1:14:58Okay. But my quite specific question is are you aware of anybody that studied that particular issue?

1:15:03I have not really studied that issue. I've been more focused, solely focused on what impacts a tower would have negatively on a property value.

1:15:10Well at some point you might want to do a study on the Converse, which is what happens to property buddies if you don't have Zell Service. Might help you in a future case, I'm just pointing out

1:15:20a good idea. That's a very valid point. It would be uh you know, it'd be i it'd be very time consuming but realtor based interviews, I think it

1:15:28yeah.

1:15:29We'll look

1:15:30into that. Thank you. For what it's worth, anecdotally, it's happened to me once personally on a house I was buying and it had poor service. That being said, there's been some improvements in uh calling over Wi-Fi and things like that. So if you have Wi-Fi service within your house, now you can use your phone to call over Wi-Fi. So that's becoming with technology improvements becoming potentially less of an issue, but that did happen to me once. Interesting.

1:16:02So have my home and my office.

1:16:08Yeah. Sure. Okay, we're not gonna take a p poll of who has what cell phone cells have I didn't mention which company, okay.

1:16:20Okay. Thank you very much.

1:16:21Thank you. Um I would Um, I would also posit that, you know, back when I started ten years ago, there was still landlines. They were still a thing. We're also still using flagpoles. So as you know, studies tend to lag behind a bit. So as we've moved to where almost all houses, the vast majority of houses have cut the cord, the studies are yet to come just because lag in data and lag in taking time to do stuff. Just

1:16:48refresh me one day on the flagpole. Yes, sir. I understand the air circulation issue. Will the antennas themselves fit within the shroud surrounding the pole?

1:16:59No, sir. They won't. Okay. All right. Uh finally, if we have Mr. Place on the phone. I'd just like him to be available. He has provided a letter that um

1:17:15That is also not in our record.

1:17:17Not in your record, so I will bring that to you.

1:17:20You hasten to add.

1:17:26Any motion and receive and file?

1:17:28Yes, please. I have a motion and a second. Further discussion, all in favor? Aye. Aye. Opposed.

1:17:38I'll give you a quick read of it and then I'll make Mr. H um I will make Mr. Place available for questions, assuming I do not lose him with the time shift.

1:17:47Yeah, nine time zones away, huh? Yes, sir.

1:17:53Must be in India or someplace like that.

1:17:57He's

1:17:58pretty good.

1:17:58Yeah.

1:17:59Yeah.

1:18:00So Mr. Place's letter is addressed to the county in the form of to whom it may concern. And he said he states: My wife and I own the Plantation Palms Golf Club. The club was closed for two years when we purchased it in 2016. Please support the location of a cell tower on our Plantation Palms Golf Club maintenance facility. The tower revenue will support the greater need of the community for cellular service. or self service and the continued operation of the golf club and growth of the property values. Plantation

1:18:31Palms Golf Club failed in 2014 and its doors closed abruptly when the owners could no longer afford the maintenance costs of the 154-acre course. For two years the property sat idle and overgrown. Property values plummet uh plummeted when the whole plantation palm subdivision uh in the whole plantation palm subdivision of over eight hundred homes. By late 2015, the Plantation Palms HOA recruited our company, Ace Golf, to purchase and renovate the closed golf club rather than to have it developed

1:19:01as homes as a developer proposed. To entice ACE and to subsidize the huge renovation costs, the community pledged per pledged to purchase Pledged purchase of social memberships for every one of our eight hundred and twenty plus households in the plantation palms for five years to bring back their club and property values. The investment provided $125,000 a year subsidy to help with the multi-million dollar renovation and restoration of the golf club. By fall 2016, Ace

1:19:32Golf

1:19:35reopened and the club to this day continues renovations. With the reopening and renewed health of the golf club, property values have been restored and grown even higher in the surrounding communities. Early estimates of two point five million for the restoration provided to be inadequate. Damage from two years of closure and neglect resulted in the need of replacement of all eighteen greens. AC systems, irrigation pumps, most drainage pipes, and fixing just about every square foot foot of the court, course

1:20:05and clubhouse. Over three million have been invested in Plantation Ponds Golf Club so far, and deferred maintenance remains still remains that will take at least the next five. Five years and hundreds of thousands of dollars, hundreds of thousands of dollars to recut. The Community Golf Club subsidy investment ended in 2020. But repair and renovation continues with more drainage work, turf turf improvement, roof replacement, irrigation system restoration, bunker re and bunker repair work. The investment needs are still

1:20:35much higher than the typical due to two years of closure and are over and above the typical operating expenses of a golf course. Plantation Palms community knows what it's like to lose their golf course and to see the property values plummet. They're also very aware of the high cost of restoration. Since Ace Golf reopened the club, the HOA and community continues to be cooperative and supportive of the club as they do not wish it to fail again. When the opportunity to gain some recurring revenue by hosting a cell tower presented itself, we enthusiastically supported

1:21:06the proposal especially since it could be located in a remote area near our maintenance barn. We also found the HOA and many residents to support the Cell Tower proposal for the simple reason that they will all benefit from a healthy, successful golf club. Please support the self tower proposal on golf club property. to help ensure continued operation of the golf club. Rental income will go towards maintenance and improvement of the golf course. This in turn will benefit the continued growth in the property values and public recreation. That

1:21:37is um Mr. Place's letter. Mr. Place, do we have you online?

1:21:45I was worried we may have lost them.

1:21:49He's still showing on, okay uh Mr Place would you provide your name and and address for the record please?

1:21:55Uh William Place, [address removed].

1:22:01Have you been sore in Mr. Place?

1:22:05Yes I am.

1:22:08Mr. Place, I just read your letter dated your s notarized letter dated April twenty fifth, twenty twenty three to the Commission. Were you able to hear me read it?

1:22:19Yes, I I can hear it.

1:22:21Is that the letter you wrote?

1:22:24Yes it is.

1:22:25All right. Do you have any additional remarks on the letter?

1:22:31Um no, not really, not unless there's any questions, anything I can assist with.

1:22:36Do the commissioners have any questions for Mr. Place?

1:22:40Any questions from you guys? Nope.

1:22:43All right. Thank you so much for joining us, Mr. Place.

1:22:48Thank

1:22:48you. Um commissioners, I can run you through I can run you through the conditional use factors. Um If you would like, but I also specifically incorporate into my presentation by reference the conditional use factors that were in my cover letter and also in your expert staff's report. Would you like me to talk you through them?

1:23:13Does anybody wish to hear that again? No. Okay.

1:23:16So with that, I'll reserve it any remaining time for rebuttal. That concludes my direct presentation. I and my witnesses are available for any questions that you may have. Thank you.

1:23:25Thank you very much. Thank you.

1:23:28All right, so is there anyone here to object or have questions?

1:23:35Come forward please.

1:23:42We could just have your name and your address, please.

1:23:45Sure. It's uh Tom and Don LaFreri and we're on [address removed]. We're um on the eleventh fairway of uh of the golf course. Okay,

1:23:56and you've been sworn both.

1:23:58Yes, you've been sworn, yes. So first of all, we just want to say we have no intentions of halting progress or we're not anti-Ace Golf. Um we know uh Bill P Bill Place, we were there when the golf course was uh went into foreclosure and he was purchasing it. Um Sounds like some things have happened. We when we were here last week there was some issues with where the flagpole is, could it be moved? So it sounds like there's been some movement on that which is good. So we didn't know uh until we just heard that.

1:24:28So that's that's great that that's Um moving forward we heard that it was not going to be allowed and then uh you had mentioned that there's still a possibility that it can't it can be moved, so that's great. Um just want to talk a little bit about the valuation. I've been a realtor for thirty years, so um I know something like this has has a detriment uh to value, but not only that, last time I was here I didn't provide it, but I have at least three or four uh articles from the National Association

1:24:58of Realtors from different places. One from Alabama, one from uh Georgia and one from Australia all saying that um that it's anywhere from four to ten percent um reduction in property values as you get closer to a tower like this. And it's within two thousand feet, after two thousand feet it doesn't really have an effect. But within two thousand feet it does. And there's all kinds of technical data in here. I don't know why uh the uh Appraiser?

1:25:30Couldn't couldn't provide any technical data. Um he actually didn't provide any data really. He used his his opinion. So we actually have real data here. And um

1:25:43So when we read this data, so we're not we're not pros at this by any means. We've been learning this over the last couple of months, okay? Even though being a realtor, I kinda know some of these things, but We didn't know anything about cell t cell tower data. So the data that we've been reading says you need to use this, and I don't know if the y if the appraiser would understand this or know this. It's called the spatial hedonic property valuation model. So they said that's what you have to use when you do this. I have no idea what it is, but it's pretty scientific. So it and that's

1:26:14what they used and they showed they showed this. So No, I'm not going to really discuss the value. We can that can go here or there, but that's one of our reasons. We're within 500 feet of this tower where our where our home is. We're actually about 510 feet from from the actual tower. Um As far as the golf course, so you you're seeing that that we contributed $125,000 a year. you know, towards the golf course. So that was what six hundred and fifty thousand dollars to h to

1:26:44help promote them. Uh and that was great. And I think if something were to happen we would do that again. Um but um wanna show you here something which I didn't know Bill was gonna be be here but

1:26:59We have our um our newsletter from from the association. This is put out by Jim Hammond and it's actually signed by Bill Place. It says Ace Report Ace Golf reports record year. And I can provide this, but if if you don't mind I can just read a few paragraphs of it that's

1:27:17I'm gonna say that your time is up, but you have twice as much time because there's two of you. So go ahead. Oh

1:27:24good. Thank you. Thank you.

1:27:26But don't don't you come up and I'll

1:27:29try I'll try

1:27:30he's gonna hog all your time.

1:27:32We're pretty close. We're pretty close. So this is so Bill Place wrote this and he said thank you for making twenty twenty two the best ever at Plantation Palms Golf Club. First, thank you so much for those who voted Plantation Palms as best golf course in Tampa Bay Times Reader Poll for the third year in a row. Our other golf course, Crescent Oaks, was voted number one in Plantation Palms number two. It has been a six-year journey made possible by you, the HOA, and residents of Plantation Palms who invested in the club and who continue to show support, membership, golf

1:28:02rounds, price per round, and reach highest levels ever. Leading to our most profitable year after the first three to four years of losses and investment. Other key successes are Mulligan's, which is our restaurant and clubhouse, and the event facility revenue alone grew double digits to nearly two million, more than the club's total revenue, including golf, under the past ownership. Our events, our events business exceeded that of our sister club, Preston Oakley. the first time as well as all other key

1:28:32measures including golf rounds, revenue and profitability. So again, I mean if if it has to go there, yeah, we would like to see see them get get the money, but if there's other I think it was just kind of a slam dunk. I think they didn't really look into other locations to be not I I don't know. Um but If it has to go there, that's fine. We would like to see something that could have some concealment, but they're not in trouble, and if they were in trouble, we would bail them out again. So I would don't want you to think that it's

1:29:03uh to make your decision just based on on the golf course success. Um

1:29:10As far as the HOA goes, we weren't aware of any uh any vote. We've been there for twenty years. Um so I don't know where that boat went, how that worked, but I know I can't believe there's not more people here upset. Actually w this this is gonna be on the south side of of the course, so there's not that many homes they're gonna really be affected on it. It's gonna be our street and you know a couple others that you showed there. So maybe there's only about maybe 70 houses or so they're gonna see this. So I can kind of see Jim Hammond saying this is a

1:29:40good spot. And we know Jim. We actually had dinner with Jim Habin, the president, that Tuesday night. And uh I'm a member of the golf course. I'm golfing tomorrow, so it's like we want this. Um but I know if you put this in Jim Hammond's backyard he would say no. So, you know, it's Um so that's pretty much all we have to say.

1:29:59Well I do appreciate I know you mentioned last time we were gonna thinking outside of the box, you know, and not just sticking this ugly pole in someone's backyard. And I appreciate that it looks like some effort was put in there to look into doing, you know, a bell tower or one of the tree type facilities. Um, you know, as far as the bell tower not fitting in, the hole. area is kind of covered by trees. So it's not like we're gonna be looking up and go, there's not a church it's attached to. It's attached to a you know a golf facility. We don't really see

1:30:29that. All we would see is the tower. I do have pictures of our backyard if any of you guys would want to see that. And what this tower would look like. If it was concealed, it would certainly just show that they appreciate the values of the homeowners and doing their due diligence to not you know, 'cause it we're not going to be the last ones this is going to happen to. This is just starting. You don't see this this close to homes in Pasco. But as it grows, we are going to see more of it. So, you know, we need to figure

1:30:59out with those, you know, cell tower companies, how do we make these so that they're not looking awful and diminishing value and comfort of people's homes when they're looking at these massive monsters under their back window.

1:31:14And if any of you golf, five hundred feet from our house is about a five iron shot. So if you're shooting a five iron, that's about how close the tower is.

1:31:21So is there any way we can put the photo simulations back up because I wanna I wanna be clear about what their preference is in the tower. appearance. It doesn't mean Planning Commission has to agree with it. I just wanted to hear what their preference is in terms of the tower appearance.

1:31:43While they're bringing that up, um did when do you have any an idea when the power lines were constructed? Just like a year

1:31:50ago. Yeah, we

1:31:50didn't have a

1:31:52and those are just out of tree line, so probably in another year we won't see those, but this tower is gonna be far above that.

1:32:01Denise, I think there was another view that shows it a little clearer. I think there's one on

1:32:05their block too. I think there's one on Sago Palm. Yeah,

1:32:08Singo Palm. Okay, so

1:32:12Yeah, so where that tower is we're actually two houses to the left. We've got a two story house worth about six hundred and fifty thousand. So if if valuations are five or ten percent, no, it's fairly substantial to us. I mean I know they're gonna disagree.

1:32:26Okay, so I had a very specific question for you then that I need you to answer. Denise if you could scroll through these slides and then stop me on the slide where you said that it's the one I realize you don't like any of them. Okay.

1:32:37But

1:32:37okay. But I want to know which of those you've least disliked the least. How about that? Okay.

1:32:46I think the tree is probably the better one.

1:32:48I kinda like the the tower. So it looks like a bell tower or something like that.

1:32:53But it's just us. We're just two

1:32:55people. If it were, you know, along a business and you're looking just seeing that tower you'd say it looks out of place. But from there you can't see what it's attached to. My thought on the tree thing is it might look good for a short time, but then who's gonna maintain it? Ten years from now after a couple of hurricanes you've got like three branches to you know that could be a problem.

1:33:16Yeah, that is a problem.

1:33:20But bottom line, if Bill were here, of course, revenue, sure, who wouldn't want more revenue? You know, I I'm uh I was a a landlord, of course, the lieutenant was gonna pay me an extra thousand bucks a month, of course I want it. But Does he need it? And can this be moved? That's really the question. And if it can't be if

1:33:39it can't be moved then yeah, just to consider homeowners, you know, what they're looking at this is gonna be something that's gonna I'm sure be coming up in lots of different communities as these cell towers grow. We've seen two or three pop up just within a mile of us over this last year.

1:33:57Have you been provided with Mr. Talvy's study that was just handed to to us to the question of t evaluation? No. Okay. Yeah, not that we had the opportunity to to really study this either, but it looks like it's there's quite extensive data on. Okay, okay, good. So I didn't

1:34:11realize

1:34:12Yeah, okay.

1:34:19Okay, that's great.

1:34:20But uh you know it's comment on that, you know, for a bank to say, well the house is more glass because of this, but for a homeowner, if I were driving with my children up to home to Two homes.

1:34:31Better said

1:34:32one had that behind it, one didn't. I'm gonna pick the other one, which is gonna diminish the value of the one with it because you have less buyers, less competition.

1:34:41Well you have to keep in mind too that appraisers render an opinion of value based on their experience and so it's it's still um just an opinion. But at the same time it's also supposed to be an impartial opinion um that's not benefiting towards the homeowner or to the bank or anybody else.

1:34:56Right. That's why we have these here which obviously show a diminished value. Right. So who's correct?

1:35:04Yeah, well the big one of the biggest things we're considering is the potential loss of the golf course, you know, because uh I d I do have experience with the cost of running a golf course and it's substantial and uh you can see that there's golf courses closing all over the place. Right. So, you know, I can appreciate the fact that every little bit of money that they can g gather keep it to keep it running. No I don't I don't know anybody

1:35:35that's getting rich off on a golf course. But um You know, I I think it's important I for if I were to live in there it'd be more important to me that we keep the golf course. I'll put up with the tower. Rather than lose the golf course.

1:35:49I agree, but I don't think that's I don't think that's an issue. I'm golfing there tomorrow. It's hard to get tea times. It's it's packs. He's doing a great job.

1:35:56And there is other revenue.

1:35:58The Parks Department needs money too. What's that? The Parks Department needs money too. Oh yeah. More so after last year. Only after

1:36:05the last

1:36:06planning commission

1:36:06meeting. We were actually on the on the committee. It was called the B B O C was Bring Back Our Course. We were on that committee. We went grassroots, we went house to house, and we had people sign up to pay that hundred and twenty five thousand a year. I mean I'm golfing there tomorrow. I'm a member, we're social members. Well and

1:36:22it may not be a an issue now. They may not be in trouble now, but we don't know what this new economic cycle is going

1:36:28to bring

1:36:28to.

1:36:29That's true.

1:36:30Again, it's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

1:36:34Yeah, it's just if it's going to affect our value, you know, if we're just you know it's like a David and Goliath thing here. It's like they've got a a board of professionals, it's just us. But

1:36:41I think as you said that you know these towers are gonna become more and more prevalent, especially With with five G from the the uh presentation we had. Five G covers a smaller distance, so the towers are gonna have to become more uh dense from what

1:36:56they

1:36:56are currently.

1:36:56We're reading about she's reading about in California where they're actually gonna put them on people's houses, which would actually be better.

1:37:04But ultimately that's that's gonna become more ubiquitous in the in the area. And so therefore the more towers that start to proliferate the area, the more likely it's going to affect property values less because they'll be in more people's backyards. Yeah, hopefully.

1:37:20So since you all had a difference of opinion about which one you like best, uh I'm just trying to figure out I mean, are you okay with if that went to a vote of the HOA and let them decide which

1:37:30Yeah, I would say that. I'd say remember always defer to the wife. Yeah, Lisa? Always refer to the wife. Right, right, right.

1:37:37Some homeowners can't be here either. We have a lot of elderly and then a you know, a few of our neighbors here were working, so they sort

1:37:51Well I mean the HOA might be the best place to turn to for that decision if you all aren't in agreement. So

1:37:57Yeah, we know Jim Hammond very well. He's an honest guy, so if you ask him to put out a little survey.

1:38:02Okay, thank you. All right. Could could

1:38:04we if if we were client to approve, could we approve it with that condition that uh the final design is based upon a survey from

1:38:14Well I do need to ask the applicant and I need to get the applicant to confirm they could build any one of those four. And it won't affect their service, but we need to confirm that with the applicant. But assuming that's true Yes, I think you could do that as a condition.

1:38:27Yeah. But I like this guy's thought. Let's say let's see what the county says first. Let's give the county the revenue.

1:38:34He likes you.

1:38:36Likes you, John. That's John Moody down there. Thank you guys.

1:38:41Appreciate

1:38:42it. Thank you.

1:38:44All right. Yeah, I think we've had a fair airing of the concerns.

1:38:49Can I ask the applicant a couple of questions?

1:38:51Absolutely. She's gonna come back up anyway, so

1:38:53So Matt's nine John again for the record. So my first question is the four tower designs that you show up there Can you build any one of the four and still meet your service

1:39:06goals? Um Technically yes, we would we provided the bell tower design for reference only though, the three legged bell tower design.

1:39:17The one in the picture.

1:39:18So so I guess my question is if the HOA came back and said that's the one we love Could you build that and still meet your service needs. Yes. Okay. That's pretty direct. Okay, so then I have another question for your RF engineer which is

1:39:41You sh you showed us the if you could go back to those RF maps that you showed us. The two eyes and the bottom. Where you compared the service, the five G service at the park site versus the um the golf course site.

1:39:58They will be forwards to that.

1:40:03Yeah.

1:40:10And it is actually in the next section, so please proceed forwards.

1:40:15Please proceed forwards?

1:40:16Yeah, we're trying as fast as we can to see the lag between what we see at here and what you see. We are just

1:40:22finally getting

1:40:23our

1:40:23numbers for the I think what I'm I'm just gonna summarize what I think you said here, but if I say it wrong, correct me. Yes sir. I think what you're saying is that if you located the tower on the park site or in the general location where the flagpole is, that you would have a gap in service To that circled area.

1:40:45That's correct. State your name again?

1:40:47And that if you put it on the golf course site, you don't have that same gap in service. Is that an accurate statement?

1:40:55Byron Oakens, our engineer. Yes, that is correct. Those models predict that the 5G signal will not meet our service levels in that community unless we move the site.

1:41:15Okay. And I guess I I guess I'll ask the applicant in a minute.

1:41:21I I mean how do you think the Telecommunications Act uh what's the interplay there I mean if you're telling us you have a gap in service if we don't approve this, how does that how does the Telecommunications Act play into that?

1:41:33Yeah, so can we proceed forwards Matt and I joined again. Uh proceed forwards to the aerial slide. So I'm actually litigating an effective prohibition case uh right now um against the city of Lakeland of all places. Um And basically effective prohibition Uh is a two-prong analysis that involves: do you have a gap in service? Is it significant? And here you have a pretty large number of houses. Um And

1:42:04then the other analysis is are there reasonable alternatives? And when you look at this coverage area, it is all single family homes. It is worse to try to put a tower on the north side of Plantation Palms than it is on the south side. Now, your usual uh appellate scheme that you're used to under state law is called a reasurtier, where the state court just asks: Did you follow your process, did you provide notice? Uh, did you take and depart from the essential requirements of the law in

1:42:34a way that you know constitutes a miscarriage of justice? And was there competent substantial evidence? with effective prohibition claim, that is something called de novo. I get to go to federal court. I get to argue to a federal judge that I have a gap here. I get to bring Byron back in and have him testify and provide additional reports. Um And then I get to have the judge make a decision as

1:43:04to whether there's a gap there or not. And whether this created a gap. So I believe there would be a gap. If you'd like to hear from Mr. Elkins whether the gap is significant to him as an RF engineer, I'll be happy to have him say that. But I don't have to make all my record here because I can make it during the lawsuit. So

1:43:26this this within this oval is is the gap.

1:43:30With that comes I'm sorry, that's a question.

1:43:31Within this oval, is that's the gap in service. Is that is that what you're saying?

1:43:37Yeah, uh the previous slide showed where our prediction models say that the reliable coverage will will end. So everything in yellow is considered reliable indoor residential

1:43:47coverage. So please back up one more slide, just so we can keep things straight and I'm sorry for talking over. Yeah. Alright, I am now showing the map. of the coverage from the parks location. So if this was kept at parks, this is the coverage you would be seeing. It's the map labeled A2G0422C. Mr. Elkins, please let's speak to this particular map.

1:44:16So this map is depicting in yellow reliable indoor residential coverage from our 5G radiate system.

1:44:25And what's the green?

1:44:26The green is reliable in vehicle because the attenuation of a vehicle is higher than the construction of a house. So those levels have to be stronger outside of a vehicle in order to provide reliable coverage inside that vehicle. Okay. So that's kind of a measurement stick that we use in the industry. Uh we also have one for in-building commercial. Uh those are our three levels that we always Scientist.

1:44:51So you're saying that Even if the tower on which you're currently located could accommodate you

1:45:01that you'd still be here asking for this request? Yes, sir. Matt and I john again. Yes, Commissioner Oakley.

1:45:11And sir, I just wanted to confirm so um my limited knowledge of how how wireless works, um I understand that as technology progresses and bandwidth increases, which is the natural progression of technology, as that happens, the distance um that you can reliably transmit from that tower is proportionally decreased.

1:45:31That's a pretty good understanding of it, yes. As the channel bandwidth widens, which we have to do in order to offer faster speeds, broadband quality cellular service, that power is reduced because the spectrum is increasing. That's right.

1:45:45Okay, so as the uh everybody tends to move to that new technology, then it's going to continue to require

1:45:51the power is the same, but we spread that power over more bandwidth, we lose range.

1:45:56Okay. Thank you.

1:46:00Could we go forward to that aerial of that same gap area?

1:46:08Okay.

1:46:08So I'm one to relish a fight for what it's worth. Um but I think trying to place a tower up there would be an unnecessary fight to be visited upon those property owners. Especially when we can be down near high voltage power lines on the other side of a golf course, providing more than two times tower height separation, which is the presumed separation is the code that you're is the separation. your own code presumes as allowable for a type two presumed administrative Approval.

1:46:40We could get in we don't qualify for type two because of our height. But one of the standards in there in your code, and I can cite to it if you want, is that you provide two times tower height. So when you look at this, you have all those factors of your code lining up and your separation is locate that I was just talking about is in code section. One zero zero two point six tier two sub D sub one.

1:47:11Um anyways, that's where that separation is. But if you were to compare these two, you know, you couldn't establish any of that up here. You would have a tower that's much worse placed.

1:47:27Much more

1:47:29Yeah, and visually you're y I mean, it goes well beyond plantation palms. I mean those there's you know, sable palms is up there and other other neighborhoods up in that area too. So, I mean you're servicing a you you're focusing on plantation ponds but you're serving a larger node, I guess you could say, up in up through that area. Um that's that was kind of my point with that. You know visually going to the north there, there's really nowhere for you to go to the north.

1:47:53Yes, sir.

1:47:55Could not have said it better myself.

1:48:01Is that it's safe to assume that ATT and Verizon would have the same coverage limitations? I I don't know I'm asking.

1:48:12Do you uh renovates I can't speak for their coverage uh requirements. They use slightly different channels and technology to us as well, so it's hard. Can't can't answer how they would fare in the same situation.

1:48:27If I may though, since I've brought Verizon applications and AT ⁇ T applications, I'm not an RF engineer myself. I just grew up in a radio station and have brought about 200 applications. um they face the same fundamental dynamic that the further south you go, the less they can cover to the north. And they their coverage is still inherently local as in it serves the surrounding community. And are they

1:48:52on the existing flagpole tower

1:48:54now? Verizon is currently on the existing flagpole tower.

1:48:58If you build this tower, does that other does the flag bulb become fun functionally obsolete? I mean, is that would there still be need for service there or is Verizon gonna jump off and and relook? I mean, just speculating what what would what would happen to that?

1:49:12Yeah, just my speculation from dealing with densification, which is what we call concurrency, um I would think that Verizon would leave and move to the Bonne Pole. Because they can't deploy their five G antennas. They require airflow too.

1:49:31And so are you saying that the flagpole cannot be modified to accommodate your antennas?

1:49:42Can we take the shroud off the flagpole? Well, the shroud on there is part of the zoning approval. So Well that's what we're

1:49:50here to do, so

1:49:53But you can't change that approval. It's not before you But Um even if it could be modified. We've already shown you a model for this monopole comparing apples to apples. um between the golf course maintenance site and the flagpole site. And the signal simply doesn't make it up there. It's a question of physics. So That wasn't an apples to oranges comparison where I was showing flagpole versus monopole. We

1:50:23monop monopole versus monopole.

1:50:28Well.

1:50:29And you're not going to create any gut cut coverage gaps to the south by going further north?

1:50:34No, sir. Uh to the south are swamps and um agricultural lands. So

1:50:47All right. Are there any other questions?

1:50:52All right. Any other thing any other thing you want to add?

1:50:57For the record, vertical bridge is um amenable to the Planning Commission's contemplated condition of approval of requiring a survey to be sent out to select a design. um if approved. And I would also just remind you, um some of the Lafiri's remarks well, first I would remind you that When you're looking at competent substantial evidence, you have articles that are in general positing ideas. But then you have case studies

1:51:28from the market. And I would submit to you that case studies do rise to competent substantial evidence. An article um is but just more opinion. Um if you have questions for Mr. Talby I can bring him back up for his thoughts on that. The other thing I would bring to your attention is that um And the

1:51:55And I'm I'm sorry I'm mispronouncing names, especially with a name like Matt Tanaya. But our neighbors Literally said, you know, Mr. Hammond wouldn't like it in his backyard. And I believe they made a similar remark in a golden rule manner. But Not in my backyard is not competent substantial evidence in the state of Florida, and you cannot base your I would respectfully submit, subject to counter from Council Goldstein, of course. um that you cannot base your decision on that sentiment. And I would respectfully submit

1:52:26that. We

1:52:26we understand that. We we actually spoke about that on the last case. Um the same sentiment was then.

1:52:32Understood. I just didn't have it's not my record, so I had to state the obvious. My father has a joke about um making a record and it ends with um Well, 'cause the guy the guy was like dead. The the coroner had his brain in his hand or whatnot and he was trying to run that to ground. And the coroner finally says, Well, I guess he could be alive and practicing law in Tennessee. He's making fun of him because the person he was trying to ferret out literally did not the corpse did not have a brain in his body. So sometimes

1:53:02we say we state weird things that might make your eyes glaze over and I apologize for that.

1:53:08Understood.

1:53:09All right. Uh I and my team stand for any questions that you may have. Thank you. Okay, thank you very much.

1:53:17Okay.

1:53:18Okay.

1:53:21I I know we as commission have to make a lot of difficult decisions on a lot of things and there never really is any one right answer but we have to weigh what's legal and what's um set for with precedent in law and uh so we we um we have to look at these these things in order to think about the greater good. I'm a property owner Two, I understand we, you know, no property owner wants to have anything

1:53:51on slightly in a backyard power lines, whatever it might be. But at the same time, the world's changing, technology is changing every minute. Um, and there are ramifications to the other side of it as well. If if we don't have this technology, you know, if we didn't have these power lines, we wouldn't have power conveniences that we enjoy the day. So I'll make a motion that we approve this with the conditions set forth to conduct a survey of the property owners to determine the

1:54:21best potential design for the construction of the town.

1:54:24The survey of the HOA. Right. Survey

1:54:26of

1:54:26the H O A. Right. Okay, so we have a motion. We have a second.

1:54:31I'll second it because that condition is going to be in there. I think that's extremely important that uh the HOA is is uh engaged regarding that that issue.

1:54:39All right. So we have a motion and a second any further discussion of the motion. If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Okay.

1:54:49I'm sorry, can I please have clarification of the motion because I as I understand it is What you want the applicant to do is to bring for forth the four different designs that you've seen here, which are basically a monopole. a shrouded monopole, a bell tower, and a monopine design to the HOA for their vote.

1:55:12That's correct and and specifically to survey the residents. The the HOA can't vote on it as a board without them to survey the residents.

1:55:20Thank you.

1:55:23Okay. So we have a motion,

1:55:25we have a second. I guess the corollary to that is that they then build the design that the majority of the residents want. Correct. Okay.

1:55:32And do the residents have the I we'll talk about four, but maybe the residents will come up with their own idea of what it oughta look like or improvements. I would tell you that my envisionment of a bell tower wouldn't exactly be what was presented up on the screen today, but

1:55:50You have to be careful with that though because I asked the applicant could they build any of those four without affecting service. I d I don't know if the residents are gonna come up with if they come up with a fifth idea, I don't know if it would affect service

1:56:01or not. More specifically what I'm getting at the bell tower had three legs and depicted a cross. There's not a church there, but maybe there's something that could maybe fit a little bit better with the neighborhood.

1:56:16A golf ball? Well that may be

1:56:19too maybe a giant golf ball. Clistron nine is a giant golf

1:56:23ball.

1:56:27We're

1:56:27getting aw we're getting awfully

1:56:29creative up here, you know. That was David's suggestion.

1:56:36The radars

1:56:37are golf

1:56:38balls. Okay, so

1:56:40I think it I think it needs to be limited to the the four designs that were presented with out any substantial uh you know so as long as it's s uh simply I can amend it to say that it's those one of those four designs as presented with uh only I'm trying to think of a word.

1:56:58Have a minor design teach is accepted by the applicant. Right, there you go. If the applicant's willing to make it

1:57:04Okay. Mm-hmm. Okay, so c we can accept the modification of the motion then David?

1:57:10Yes. And we'll second that motion

1:57:12again. We have a second. All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed, like, sign. Okay, motion carries. So you don't have to go to federal court now, see? Thank you for your time.

1:57:29That being said, if the commissioners are listening, study your ordinance. Mr. County Attorney, because I will tell you this, I'm gonna come back and I'm not gonna be threatened that we'll take you to federal court if we don't approve your cell phone tower. And this is supposed to be a better technology, but yet I'm being told, well now I need to have more of these antennas everywhere for this quote better technology.

1:57:55See

1:57:55and they used to like you.

1:57:57Well I don't

1:57:58care if they like me.

1:58:00Well the the ordinance do need to be ordinances do need to be updated as technology changes. I guess that's there are physical limitations to hang on.

1:58:11Okay, Ms. Denise, where where are we?