Zoning Amendment (Regular) - Handcart 20 Villages of Pasadena Hills MPUD - Timothy and Stacy Polce - A Rezoning Request from A-C Agricultural District to MPUD Master Planned Unit Development to Allow For a Maximum of 144 Dwelling Units on Approximately 20 Acres
What the county recorded
Staff recommendation
Approval with Conditions
DispositionApproved
Approved Staff’s recommendation with the conditions as amended at this meeting which include that it would be platted, with a 23-foot driveway, remove the understory tree from the language, add that there must be green space between the back of curb and the sidewalk, and on 46, the language drafted, multi-family needs to be changed to residential.
The source document
The county’s agenda for Board of County Commissioners, May 9, 2023
The published PDF, as served by the county. This item is one entry in it.
The county’s minutes for Board of County Commissioners, May 9, 2023
The published PDF, as served by the county. This item is one entry in it.
This case, across meetings
PDD-23-7682 in full →Heard once. PDD-23-7682 appears on no other agenda in the archive.
- May 9, 2023BoardP68▶Approvedthis item
What was said
Machine transcription of 47m of recording, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 89% of 261 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.
According to the full public hearing swearing in and on.
So public hearing
so county
attorney will be. Sure. There are two rezoning agendas, regular and consent. Staff will present each application to the Board of County Commissioners. If staff or planning commission has recommended approval and there's no opposition, the application will be considered by the board without further presentation. If staff or planning commission has recommended denial or if there is opposition to the application, the applicant will be given five minutes for presentation, the opposition will be given three minutes for each individual or five minutes for a group representative. and
the applicant will be given three minutes for rebuttal. Any individual disagreeing with staff or planning commission recommendation? Or anyone wishing to object to any condition of the rezoning may at this time request that a petition be pulled from the consent agenda, in which case that application will be heard under the regular agenda later on during the meeting. Otherwise, all rezoning applications on the consent agenda will be approved by a single motion and vote. If you wish to speak to any petition, please give your name and address
in whether
These are quasi-judicial public hearings. The law in Florida is that mere public support or opposition of an application is insufficient for this board to take action. Please limit your comments to those criteria found within the Board's Land Development Code. Mr. Clerk, do you want to swear them in?
At this time, anyone who is uh intending on presenting information on these items, please rise.
Any public speaking that's gonna
happen as well? If you intend
on all the re rezoning agendas on the agenda.
If you intend or think you might, uh please stand. Please raise your right hand.
Do you swear or affirm the testimony you will give? Uh is the truth so help you God? I do. Yeah when you come forward at the to make a presentation, please acknowledge that you have accepted this oath. Thank you.
Okay. Pleasure the boy. Do you want to go right to P sixty eight?
Yeah.
Okay. D sixty eight.
Thank you. We have proof of publication of this item.
In the March first, twenty twenty three edition of the Tampa Bay Times.
Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Item P sixty-eight is known as Handcart 20. It's PDD 237682. Uh Handcar 20 Villages of Pasadena Hills, MPUD, Timothy and Stacey Folski, a rezoning request from AC Agricultural District to MPUD Master Planning Unit Development to allow for a maximum of 144 dwelling units on approximately 20 acres. As we noted previously in the prior presentations, it
is located in the villages of Pasadena Hills, north and west of Zephyrhills. Designated by the Red Star. Here it is located within the Pasadena Hills area plan boundary, which is located to the south, along Pencar 20, it's south of the intersection of Old Bridge and Hancar.
Here are the two parcels that you just heard about in the comprehensive plan amendment case.
at uh Henkart and Jesse Daniels Drive. And here is the subject property in terms of its existing zoning with AC and it'll be rezoned to MPUD as was noted.
And here's again the the parcel as it relates to uh certain um future land uses. And as it was mentioned in the previous presentations, this is a uh a zoning that will cap the density to approximately 7.2 dwelling units per acre, uh which is just two dwelling units more than what the villages of Hassan and Hills uh vision plan was looking for the area.
I've already mentioned what the project is. This is the master plan to the Master Plan Unit Development Zoning District. Won't go too much into it, but you can see the numerous interconnections that are proposed to this site with the emergency access point located south on HANCART here. And the main access point located here at Jesse Denis.
What um can I ask who sorry Mr. Starkey. Um can sorry, can I didn't realize that was an emergency access. Can you go back to that? How many units are going in here?
One hundred and forty four maximum.
So um why wouldn't we just have two? Is this gated?
Uh I'm not certain if it's gated but uh uh no, it's not being gated. Uh the number of connections are proposed. It's gonna have the necessary stub outs to the north, uh, east and south to enable the network that we'd be looking for. This is uh one of the first projects in the area.
Before you go though, I I I
just didn't understand that one was gated. Uh just
so it is gated or not gated? No, it's
not that it was emergency access only.
On the south.
I I don't understand why we would limit that to emergency when it's all the same neighborhood.
It's on the same road.
Yeah.
Well I think it has to do with we'll change it. Okay. They can make it a full
That's it. You're gonna
have to put
a road there. I mean why not make it easy for the folks living there?
Yeah. W one thing to recall from the previous presentation is that there are a lot of uh vision roads that are crisscrossing this area. And so by providing interconnections on the north, east and south, you are enabling a future network to plug into those.
Well yeah, that's why I don't even know if you needed that other one, but if you're gonna have another one, why would it An emergency okay.
That's kinda why I am.
I have other questions but I'll wait till you're done.
Um in terms of there are some variations that are requested, um, minor though they be with hand cart the hand cart 20 and PUD. Uh this one section eight oh five six, residential parcels under single ownership and not platted as separate lots be exempt from included in HOA or C D D, mainly because there's usually uh HOAs or property owner groups that are associated with it. Um And then in terms of section 9071E, it's to reduce on-site parking ratio for multifamily to a minimum
of 1.9 spaces per unit, which is a typical reduction often issued to townhouse projects and other multifamily.
If I could stop you there. Yeah. I'm not comfortable with reducing this.
Okay, I I don't I I never heard this in my presentation either. Why why would people not be required to be in the HOA? Is that what you're is that what that's saying?
If it's not platted. So if it is platted, so most townhouse projects are are V simple projects that do get platted and they are in HOS.
So
in other words, if it if if all of the units are in one common ownership So if it's a rental. And they're basically they'd be rental.
I I don't know about your presentation you heard, but I was unaware it was gonna be a with the community either.
I didn't get any of that from my presentation, so um,
I thought it was gonna be a fee simple. And again, back to section two which I was gonna talk about, I'm not comfortable with shrinking down the sp parking spots either.
Oh 1.9 mom, I'm okay. But those questions are probably good for the applicant.
Except I just I wanna understand like the driveways and I don't want to parking on the front lawn anymore. And
Right, let's let's continue
on.
Well that that's a variation that's being requested. In terms of the analysis, uh the planning department is willing to uh allow the parcel owner to act as a responsible party of any maintenance for activities that normally would be the duty of the homeowner association or a community development district in an unapplied scenario. And then 9071.
Of asphalt, which would reduce heat, island, and impervious surfaces, improving stormwater management. It's a type of best practice to reduce parking when it's not necessary. And this parking ratio is above the 85th percentile peak parking demand for the Institute of Traffic Engineers.
Uh here are a number of other findings of fact. As I mentioned, it's the there's a comprehensive plan case to increase the uh density from res 1 to res 9, but the actual increase is 5 to 7 because of the village's Pasadena Hills plan. On May 12, 1999, there was a special exception that was granted for uh golf school and driving range for both par schools. And then number three, the Hen Cartoon MPUD has designated three different product types as T and D products. And these
would be the single-family detached that are proposed within the MPUD, townhomes and duplexes, all with rear and alley-related lines. And number four is just a standard type of discussions.
Okay. All right, I have a question on that. Commissioner
Starkey.
And I'm just making sure that I'm hearing what he's saying. It said only the single family detached will be reloaded. And the town homes may or may not be reloaded. Which is something I wanted to discuss with everybody. But here you're saying All of them are rear money.
The TND products. So this is part of an incentive that was uh built into this MPUD in the conditions of approval that if you are uh a TND product type, which would be the rear-loaded or alley loaded product, um you would be you would be able to benefit uh by partaking of that incentive. So there may be products that if do not pick up the incentive that may be front loaded and they would not receive that incentive. But
if you are a T and D product and so they it's basically an incentive to build the rear loaded products that we desire.
Terry, with the sh with the shape of this lot, how how in the wetland right on the road, how do you think that works for a rear road rear loaded project?
I didn't hear the question I'm sorry.
With the shape of the lot.
Yes.
How do you in the wetland that runs through it, how do you think that works for a rear loaded lot?
Uh I think the applicant could probably speak to it much better than me, but some of the uh conceptuals that I have seen is most of the rear loaded product is located interior to the site and wetlands were not really a preclusion to rear load to products being re rear loaded. Um where you're well you'll probably see front loaded product is any kind of um yeah. Any kind of product that's located on the perimeter of the property.
Okay. Yeah.
Uh the proposed request is consistent with the uh Pasco County Land Development Code Chapter 400 uh subsection 402.2 zoning amendment and PUD master planning development, and as we noted with the provisions of the uh comprehensive plan. And so this comes forward uh from the planning department with the recommendation of approval with conditions. And I should mention too, um there was a last minute Update to the uh conditions of approval. Uh condition number five under
open space and buffering um
A provision was added to increase the fence height that would be required along Jesse Daniels Drive. So, what the condition is talking about is prior to the final building inspection for the first dwelling unit, a type B landscape buffer shall be required to be installed on the northern, eastern, and southern boundaries of the project as depicted on the master plan, and shall include a six-foot. opaque fence with the exception of the area along Jesse Daniels Drive which shall be which shall include an eight foot opaque
fence. So that's the uh adjustment that was made prior to the board meeting.
Just prior.
Yeah.
All right. Any qu other qu that that your end of your presentation? That would be the conclusion. Any other questions for staff at this point?
Um I have a question.
Go ahead.
I just want to know is there like a minimum for for front loaded um townhomes that would be say on the pro on the edge, is there a minimum driveway requirement? Or or if if you have One side of the street being front loaded and the other side of the street being rear loaded, you can have street parking all along the front load the rear loaded side. Right parallel. Street parking. But
By just checking on the light of the driveway. 'Cause I just went through a townhome project that has ten ten foot driveways. Yeah, it's nice.
One car sticking out on the side glass.
What do you mean for the applicant? Um that might be a question that the applicant can better describe. I I I'm filling in for staff today, so I don't know the exact details um related to that, but we'll let the applicant speak to it.
Marble Will Height, sixty three, twenty seven, Grand Boulevard for the applicant. Couple things with regard to the emergency access, got a whisper from Steve Henry that There might be a turn lane right there so we can make it We'll make it full access subject to permitting. And if not it'll be emergency access, because it's ultimately we're fine with it being full access if we can permit it that way. The change regarding the fence, we did work with our neighbors. We had neighbors at Planning Commission and those changes were working with the neighbors. We were
contacted by a neighbor last week, worked with that neighbor to the north, and that's the change you saw regarding fencing, and that's why it was not in your agenda packets because we continue to work with our neighbors up through last week. The um With re With regard to the multifamily confusion, and this is my fault, um Town homes are multifamily, so when we do these MPUDs, we write them to include townhomes and then not just and I didn't restrict it to platted townhomes only. So if that's the pleasure of the board, you
want us to restrict it to platted townhomes only, you can include that in your motion and we can and we can uh make the conditions reflect that. It's just a confusion of multifamily including Both townhomes and other multifamily products that are singly owned. So the way to fix that, as you've all been discussing, is to make a clash. So that there isn't that confusion that it can be all rentals. So I'm willing to I happy to fix that. The with regard to the townhome standards that the commissioner's asking about what are driveway
lengths. Our driveway lengths in here are 20. We have a specific condition number forty six. Let me read that to you. Our multifamily shall be subject to any LDC amendments or BOCC adopted policy setting forth architectural design and monotony standards adopted subsequent to the approval of the Hancart twenty MPUD. And prior to primary development plan, construction plan submittal. So we recognize your concerns about townhomes
and parking and driveway length. But it's really difficult to do that, to solve that on a project-by-project basis. So what we did is we said this project will be subject to whatever standards you come up with. We're happy to participate in those. The better way to do that is the way that you've been doing it, which is by policy direction of the board that every applies to everybody. So we suggested this condition and put it in our conditions of approval. So we will be subject to one of the policy you end up end up putting together for uh townhomes,
we'll be subject to that policy. So if you decide that d driveways should be twenty-three feet instead of twenty feet. If you decide there needs to be specific dedicated visitor parking, we'll be subject to that. Um it's just hard to do it on a project by project basis. So that's why we keep up with the condition.
Um I suppose.
Mr.
Darkey?
Oh, do I
want to
do that?
Mr. Carmel.
QA?
Well I'm just curious about how you have a one point nine. spots for cars when
all an unplated project. That's what that says. And what I'm saying is when we we'll remove those variations because we if it's you gotta remember this is you guys are moving pretty quick on us as far as what you want to see and don't want to see in Pasco and I'm trying to keep up and I'm trying to lead um not only just keep up. But so we have in there right now the ability to platted or unplatted. It's the pleasure of the board that we restrict this project to platted, which is with the policy you just passed last time to say we want to see single family platted.
We don't want to s so if you want us to restrict this to platted, that variation will go away. and it will be platted town homes that have the parking standard in your code which at the moment is two point two five including you get to include the garage um but you are working on townhome standards that may require additional parking. So right now allows unplatted product. We can solve that by requiring
only platted product if that's it's a pleasure of the board. Like I say I'm trying to keep up but also keep these projects moving forward and so my clients run out of contract and lose the and lose their projects. So
So these units have a single car garage?
If we do platted, that's correct. They will have a they will have a g a garage, whether it's one car or two car. Front end we can do front or rear loaded. What we did do is Again we heard the board talk about V OPH and we heard you talk about wanting to see rear loaded. So we did a couple things in regard to that. One is, like we said, any of our single family has to be reloaded. So if we have single family detached product, it it has to be reloaded. So And then we did said for Your
town own product. The cup. The issue was V OPH doesn't require TND or rear loaded. So we worked with your staff, we had a meeting, they called us into a meeting right after the board discussed the fact that We'd like to see rear loaded product in VOPH. VOPH doesn't require rear loaded product But how can we incentivize that? So one we have the standards built in for either front loaded or rear loaded for townhomes. Single family detached homes only rearloaded and then we have incentive provisions to try to incentivize the
rearload townhomes. So that's how we built this project and the approval paperwork for this project.
Okay. Mr. Starkey.
Before they switch to my picture, I d I want you to notice that we have two neighborhoods that don't connect, right there on the left. And so they all have to go out onto the arterial road to get anywhere. That's not a good not a good system. This yeah, this project Yeah.
No variation interconnection. We get it. We we absolutely hear what you're saying. We never requested a variation to interconnection north, um, east or south. We'll have the interconnections. That's just a really good idea. We understand that this is the first piece in this area and so even more so interconnectivity is important. Okay. Um Where's my picture?
At two.
So I I'm looking at uh here on the trees and I know that um I know that in the Past um our utilities department has been requiring a ten foot easement. In the front. And so our our builders We're having a really hard time putting street trees in. And is there something going on?
Okay. But I m Mr. Carball and I had a discussion and and and as I was said I was just in Bentonville and I took some photos of how all their utilities are under the sidewalk, um and and they're doing street trees everywhere. So I'm wanna I looking at Your language here j it says two trees per four town homes.
So this is your language. It's taken directly from the board's policy adopted in twenty twenty two.
So I'm just not sure that's enough for us. And and it and and if the board If if if our utility department is willing to shrink that um requirement to stay I think ten feet, you know, have a ten foot don't touch it zone. Can we get more street trees in? Where's my picture?
S
so while the picture's loading, commissioners. I know you want to do standards for townhomes. I want to do them too. But they have to be.
I'm talking about the town hall front yard, I'm talking about on the s along the street.
All all the above. I know you want to change your standards that you did last spring in twenty twenty two, um before we had some new commissioners on the board. This project will be subject to whatever you come up with. We just can't do this from the Dais project by project. It's very difficult. But my project will be subject to whatever we come up with I'm all in, I hear you, I just can't do this project by project. I'm doing the best I can to both make sure you have the quality you
want, but also not kill all these projects.
And I will say it's gonna it's gonna be a struggle to change where utilities go and work with utilities on the dais as well.
Yeah, but I'm just Before we were crying ten and I really think we can just shrink that to five.
Mr.
Waven.
Uh Commissioner I was trying to get some clarity on what we're looking at.
Oh these are townhomes in my district. Oh my picture. Oh okay. So this isn't okay.
Now what is it about this you want to talk about?
I want some street trees. And and and right now we're I just you know, maybe we can't do it here, but I but if we can work with our own county to say it's okay to put a a street tree in, um might we have to put
it So I don't want to confuse issues here. I think the easement that we're talking about are probably soft utility easement. Which are on every lot and those are for soft utilities. Typically utilities for water and wastewater are located in the right of way, which would be from the property line. It's a property line, right? The right of way. Um is there sometimes an aversion to putting trees over utility lines? Yes. Does that mean that we can't work on that? Uh we we certainly can work work with that. There's probably certain pieces of infrastructure
where they don't want a tree. So for example, where a sewer lateral trunk line is, probably not, but the there's ways to work with that. Um we're not averse to putting and water lines under sidewalks and and those types of things. Whether or not that makes room. This picture here looks like a lot of driveways to me. Well we were there with me. Rather than when we went
to look at the trees.
Correct, rather than rather than trees. So uh rather than utilities, I would say that if there are utilities there they're probably under concrete. But you know, we that that that can be worked on. I don't know if this is really related. I think there's just a couple of issues. Your your issue is related to street trees. How do we how do we how do we get more trees on the streets? for for these types of products and I'd I'd let the private sector tell me how we make that work because
I just I don't want to be in the way I don't want the county to be in the way of uh the street trees. We I think we can make that happen and work better with the development community. So we don't have this.
Uh let's carry on with the presentation where then we'll get to more questions at the end.
We can um we just have one presentation, so you've seen it from Ms. Barrero. Um Yeah, I the things I would add to her was just the things that we did relative to the neighbors. The fencing, the size of the fencing. We actually added an improvement to where Jesse Daniels meets um Hancourt Road. We added an improvement over to Hospital. It's required somewhere. He's worked with our neighbors. Other than that, that's we didn't have anything other than the presentation that Ms. Presenting.
All right, Commissioner Weightman.
Thank you. Thank you, Ms. Wah. Thank you to uh
That's another.
your client I uh can't appreciate y'all will and the work on the on the aesthetics and the green space issue. I'm I'm comfortable with this project if this board goes along to having the condition of it being fee simple and apply. That's my biggest concern and uh I'd support this item with recommendations of Ms. World High fees implement by the nominees town.
Uh so I'll say with the with the townhome projects, again I've commented how my daughters up at Orlando, No Park and et cetera, they were A single car driveway with a garage and that was it for parking. Good luck if you find a spot. Uh I can't see cutting that back because that would even be less I mean just be we'd just be a disaster trying to find parking. So right now you're saying the way this town home project's design is a two parking spots, one's in the garage and one's
in the in the driveway.
So your code requires two point two five parking spaces per town home, but it allow and you calculate that project wide and you come up with a number, but you get credit for your spots in the garage. And so I think that's as you look to establish town home standards you probably want to look to do dedicated visitor spacing outside of the driveways. So that you have to meet your 'cause right now peop we're meet Project of meeting 2.25 and you're not seeing any
difference. You're not seeing visitor spacing. You're you're concerned about the parking that you're seeing, period. So I think what you have to do is you go when you go to establish standards, you need to establish dedicated business bases that are outside the driveway.
But let me ask this question. With what you're saying, the way you're setting these parking spots up, why would you even need to go to 1.9? Why wouldn't it be automatically two when you've got a driveway and a parking lot? Yeah.
All that confusion, and I really apologize for that, is because of platted versus unplatted. We are now in the route that variation is gone, that has to do with unplatted product. We are only talking about platted product has nothing to do with that variation. So that variation
so we're gonna take up number two, that variation is gone.
That's correct.
And then we're gonna have it in there where it's gonna be planted.
That's correct. And the variation number one can go both those variations you saw can can go away with just that one change like you did in your policy a couple of weeks ago. making these things platted. So that's what we that's what we've committed to do and and our parking will be code, 2.25 spaces per unit, two spaces, 0.25 per visitor. until you change your policy. which you need to work on, we're willing to work on, um and help the effort. We're really you know, I need others to help with that effort as well. Um when you change your policy
will be subject to whatever your new policy is. If you want dedicated visitor spacing and that's what's in your new policy, that's what this project will be s subject to. I just need we need to do those discussions in the realm of that policy making as opposed to project by project.
How much time do we have before we have to put that policy in place?
This condition's written that we can't submit our construction plans. Um well it says we have to comply with whatever you come up with if it's adopted uh prior to our preliminary plan submit all. That's what it says.
Yeah,
I know I I I don't submit plans, so I'm not sure. I don't and I don't think we have anybody specifically preparing plans at this time. Okay. No. We have no plans being submitted at this time.
Commissioner Starkey.
Um I have a couple questions on um number eight. It says, I'll give you a second there. Let me find my um if a developer builder is unable to provide the appropriate number of trees on the platted lot due to easement or other constraints as determined by the county administrator or designee, then you can plant trees in the common areas. What would be a reason why you couldn't put a tree in
front of someone's house? Mm-hmm. This is a county standard condition.
So maybe Brad Tippin. Because I do that. Somebody that implements this condition might be able to answer that. Okay. Um I this is a standard condition.
And then uh my other question is, each front loaded town home block group of attached units with four or fewer units shall have a minimum of Two trees in the front yard. Is that two trees in front of the four? Or two trees in front of that's not two trees in front of each townhouse, is it?
No, it's written to say for a block of four units, townhome units, a block of f four units side by side, there has to be two trees. Here's the person that implements these conditions, so let let me have him answer your questions. Thank you.
All right. Um so the uh
record. I'm sorry, Brad Tippen, Planning and Development. Um To answer the most recent question as far as the blocks and having two trees there, typically that is a driveway issue. They will move driveways near each other, and then that leaves a certain amount of space where you can put trees, and then the distance that trees are supposed to be planted apart from each other kind of creates that that limitation there. So you have driveways, we merge the driveways together to the extent that we can to create enough space for trees and
you can usually only get a certain number of trees in there. It's two for a four-unit building and I think it's three for a five or a six. But uh the other questions you had was what types of scenarios, constraints might result in moving those trees. Uh they can there's uh electrical systems and different types of of units that sometimes need to be in certain locations for buildings. that if that space is limited, uh you can move that or change the type of tree or move that tree to an area just on the
side of the building, you know, in the near near area.
Brad, what's the length of a current driveway?
I
wanna take that
I wanna take that sentence out. So so driveways uh we we don't necessarily have a a required length for a driveway. It's it's a a function of the actual setback of the garage. So in in the design criteria that are in the MPUD it tells you what the setback of the garage is, that's how long your driveway will be. From the property line to the edge of the garage, unless they choose to make it longer. Generally, it depends on the size of the unit. If they have a four-bedroom unit or a four-bedroom house, then
they're gonna need 3.25 spaces, which they round up to four, obviously, which means two cars in the garage, two cars in the driveway, which means they'll need a minimum 20-foot driveway. So that's typically what how it is.
From the pictures you saw from that project, is that pretty much how a lot of concrete gets poured w in situations like that?
Correct. That's basically the minimum, yes. That's the the most minimum standard that we have. Uh when you get to driveways you're also talking about flare, it creates some of that large concrete expanse across the front. Uh but the right of way being from back of sidewalk to the back of sidewalk
Okay. Um
I just want to make sure I'm not sure.
This This is Something happened wrong in this development.
Well I don't I'm trying to get to like how how this happened to better,
how do we avoid
it?
That's a good question. I'd like to know that.
So when I look at like This car here with the SUV in the picture. It's got just a little bit of room behind it. If someone's got a full-size truck, suburban, they try to park in a smaller length driveway, they're gonna be cut off. What's what's the length of a like a large truck?
So to use this picture and to put this in perspective, the edge of right-of-way is actually where you see those little green planter beds. Okay, so everything from from those green platters to the right in that picture is right of way. So what happened here is all of that area where normally there would be some some driveway flares and things of that nature, those were removed and it was kept all as concrete. That was probably to improve parking, to to increase some parking in some way. But
when you look at where the SUV is parked, that is basically a 20-foot parking space. That's a 20-foot driveway, probably from the edge of of the line I was talking about up to the building front. That's probably the the s minimum twenty foot for the setup. So
is is twenty fo is twenty foot the norm we have for a town owned project or
I in generally that's what what they choose to do, it's again with the M P O D is you set the actual setback requirements. So if the garage setback is more than twenty feet you'll have a longer driveway. If it's twenty five feet then you'll have a twenty five foot driveway.
Okay. Mr. Starkey.
And the garage setback is often different from the building setback itself.
So I I I have all kinds of questions on how this possibly happened. But do we need to put something in that there needs to be Greens h how much green space between the curb and the sidewalk?
So yes, that is something that we can that's within the right-of-way essentially. Um it's a little bit different if it's private versus actual county right-of-way. There's all kinds of nuances there. But in general, yes, we can talk to that. This is not prohibited. Well it's not what we would consider best practice, but it's also not prohibited. It's trading one thing for another. It's it's it's giving you some more parking um and some of that at the expense of trees. Um You know, it's unfortunately it's not prohibited by the way our code is currently written.
I just wonder if when they did their calculations that they counted this much concrete and so I mean they've covered more than probably they said they were going to. So probably they needed another pond after doing that. But I need to prohibit this. And and I don't want this and and if we if it's allowed right now I'd like to put a condition in this and everything that comes in front of us that we can, but you can't ever do this again. So what w what does that look like? And this is what I'm talking about if we have X amount of
space between the curb and the sidewalk. you could put a row of trees in there.
Right. And and we can certainly
do that, you know, similar to how we did the other s the other uh issues with Terry and and we can work through that and come up with that. I don't think that's gonna be a situation that occurs with this particular project. I need to
put it in writing that
they're not allowed to do
this, right, guys? If you go drive through this It's not it's not a good thing that we approved this.
I had I had driven Bayxley looked at our really nice project, uh, then just took a right turn to take a look at this one here. The comparison was just dramatic. So we we can do it right, I just want to make sure we get it right. Commissioner Weightman. Not from such
this is the preserved.
So those are different products. Yeah, thank you. So
From here, Miss Woolhite say Is that the changes that
I think based on this conversation we need to bring back some some policy opportunities like in two weeks for Talent. We see these every board meeting. So I think consensus from this board. Let's get something.
in double time here. But what I think I'm hearing Ms. Wise say is a condition that she can make immediately is fee simple and platinum and that whatever our Our policy memo is on townhomes that they're willing to adopt into this plan. That's
correct.
If we accept that's the concession that I'm hearing on the record today.
This is allowed today.
But she's making a con on the record. She's making a concession on her on the project if we approve it today with the immediate being platted. and you know, these be simple product and then if we work Carbon in an expeditious way to come up with what makes you Commissioner Starkey and others here on a town home on townhome conditions and a policy memo they're willing to accept. And I appreciate and I appreciate
that very much. Um instead of I think
I hope if there's any other town hall projects in here today that you're listening, that way we don't go through this again uh today. But I'm I'm willing to accept on the record and we can get somebody in writing. I hope Ms. that to address Commissioner Starkey's concerns and we can You know.
Move forward here.
Ms. Ropley. So Ms. Wat Will I um when we we looked at this project, we didn't talk about any of these lengths or any the sidewalks. We discussed the whole project and the project looked good but Actually I sat there not knowing that the limit on these parking spaces and those tightness. I mean, a truck like I drive cannot fit in this parking space. uh on the outside without interfering with the sidewalk. So
that's a big issue.
Commissioner Oakley Rognize that. I'm standing here telling you I recognize it and I wrote a condition to make set your policy, we're gonna follow it. We've got to set your we've got to set a policy. Right.
But
you don't
and is it already in the conditions or you're willing to
no no I wrote it in. It's brought to you here today, condition 46 is sitting before you today. I didn't wait for you to I didn't wait for you to ask me or wait to tell me that you're uncomfortable that we don't have any townhome standards. I got it. So I wrote condition forty six to say we will comply with your policy. Yes, you've got to timely get a policy done, Commissioner Weightman's because we can't keep waiting forever, because we need to move projects forward, we need to know what the standards are. So but Yes, I'm I'm all in, you know, to right standards, to do whatever I can so I don't have to stand here and you all be disappointed
and I'm disappointed and I I gotta move projects forward. Um but I think this is the way to do it. One making a platted and two having this condition that says we're gonna follow your policy. Now you gotta get your policy done. I'm all in for helping with that. It's you you discuss it every meeting, I hear you. Um I'm all in to uh help with that and we will be subject to that policy. Okay,
I have
to
do that.
You can address your parking and you can address driveway length and you can address trees and greenscape, all those things, monotony, you can address all All those things in a townhome standard. We just need to get one done so that you can feel comfortable. We know what the standards are.
Commissioner Starkey.
I don't think that we in in maybe in if if Brad is saying that this is allowed today, then we have to put an additional sentence that you're gonna have to have some kind of grass in between the curb and the sidewalk. Is that right? So yeah, just to clarify on 'cause that's not I'm looking here, it's not in here anywhere.
I I did get new information that this one was an alternative standard that was allowed that actually actually is a shorter driveway. That's a sixteen foot driveway there. So that's the right-of-way.
So we have like a vr uh we've got a horizontal driveway and a vertical driveway. So our
project is also not proposing this mountable curb that you see here, so you can't have the cars go up on the sidewalk. So there will be a curb in the road that they can't mount and use the sidewalk for a parking space.
Okay. So so there it there will be grass between the curb and the sidewalk.
I'm asking
somebody. So we can we can use the the standard if it's front loaded. The the standard you can require the standard driveway design with driveway flares and that is essentially a a small flare out to the end to assist with turn radius um but it does leave green space there.
I'm just trying to get a tree between the Yeah, and
it essentially that would that would stop the the concrete from driveway to driveway like that if you if you say to use a standard driveway design.
Okay, 'cause I n I know Jordan and a bunch of people in this room worked hard together to find some kind of ways to soften the improve the landscapes in the townhomes, but I just wondered if we missed some things. I'm also looking here, it says that you that a tree, a lot, street tree within a townhome block may be a shade tree. an understory tree or a palm tree. I thought po it was three to one. If you do a tree Or three pumpkins.
So
So
And I I'm not sure I want a understory tree in there. Understory trees that's what everyone's cutting into a bush.
I would like to
Okay, it says say three palms for every shade tree, but I'm gonna take out understory. There's no reason to to let them put an understory versus a tree. That's just an extra landscaping. I mean, yeah. We gotta guys we've got to take out an understory, which is like a big bush, and put in a shade tree. Sure.
Commission Waybins.
This we're setting it. And Chris Starkey, I appreciate everything you're saying. But we can't set individual th this is policy making. live here, right? And I think if we can get your the c the customer, Ms the client, Ms. Wah, they're willing to follow what we come up with. And so with them agreeing to that, then the onus is on us, the
county. to maybe we call it emergency workshop because we see these things so quickly. I don't know, but like within the next four weeks set set a policy in record time. That way we can really hash hash hash this out and um Otherwise we'd be here forever all all day, every day. And and I hope y'all can hear the sense of urgency and Commissioner Starkey here. She's got the leading charge for us absolutely supporting her and
saying, hey, we we need to move on on this.
Absolutely, Commissioner. I do want to to reiterate one thing and I think I've I've mentioned this before, uh perhaps not here at the diocese, but uh there is a time lag. We we have done enough of improvements uh to our code to make these things better that that physically are not on the ground yet because it takes some time from the time it's changed.
Trouble has entered the room.
This is good. So he can now enter on that side, where it's dangerous. But uh yeah, there is a timeline for that. So so things like this uh may be adequately addressed by our new codes. Uh once those you won't see something like that again likely. Uh so again There is a little bit of a time lapse, so I understand a sense of urgency, but we still don't have any on-the-ground examples of the new changes we've already made. So before we continue to tweak, we may want
to kind of see that process through, review that process, make sure it's addressing everything. Uh
but is it a lot of trouble to ask to put a tree in and not an understory tree? That's like seeing a whole row of Lugustum bushes versus a tree. So and a streetscape.
Let me try something else. I am not trying to force something down on you all today. My client's not trying to do that. So b so we're supportive of new policies and and comply with those policies. But But the things that we you've talked about, um, one is platted, two is we'll go with a twenty-three foot driveway. Again, you can change it in your policy and we're subject to your policy. We'll remove the understory tree from that language and we'll add that there must be green speech
between the back of curb and the sidewalk. Again, we we want to listen to you. We're not trying to force something down.
Barbara, I'm not gonna I don't want to pile on, but 146. The the language you drafted now that you're talking about it and not it being platted?
Yes.
I think multifamily needs to be changed to residential.
Correct.
Yes.
All right. right, so with those changes, let's see if there's any public comment.
No one signed up other than the uh representative.
Okay. Is there any else in the audience want to speak to this item? Okay. We'll close public comment. Do we have a motion?
Move to approve with the conditions. Second.
Do we need any
further clarification?
I think that's second.
okay. Okay. All in favor say aye. Aye. Okay. Thank you. So