Discussion on the Subject of Single Family Detached Lots that are between 40 and 50 Feet Wide and on the Subject of Standards for Townhomes

1:51:24Okay. Now we're gonna go back to our items. Coming back to

1:51:37Or fifty

1:51:38three.

1:51:39one? So R fifty three. Oh. Discussion on the subject of single family detached lots that are between forty and fifty feet wide and on the subject of standards for townhomes.

1:51:53Thank you, Mr. Chairman Mariano.

1:51:57So um at a f at a recent Board of County Commissioners meetings, essentially between January and March of this year, um there were a number of observations and comments made concerning the development of plated single-family detached lots that are less than sixty feet wide. And these were namely the uh forties and fifties, the lots that were forty feet wide, let's say, and the lots that were fifty feet wide, which we've been calling.

1:52:23Um We've talked about and the board has talked about a number of issues pertaining to parking, uh streets, uh green space and lot trees and side yards. Um and also the at a recent Board of County Commissioners meeting there was a discussion on townhomes, and during that discussion there was a number of uh items speaking to similar um uh similar issues, uh but particularly parking streets and green space and lot trees. And so Um

1:52:54what I'm proposing for today is uh this an outline for the discussion for the board to uh expound upon some of the issues that they have identified in the past. And so for the proposed 40-foot and 50-foot front load lot elements, we might discuss, I propose we discuss uh potential uh standards with industry stakeholders uh on the following items in this particular order. So lot first discuss lot standards, then discuss enhanced landscaping

1:53:24requirements, then right-of-way, then driveways, then parking. then discuss the exhibit uh at the end. And then once the conversation on the forties and fifties has has been had Um we can move into the townhomes discussion and there talk about a potential draft. uh policy memorandum. Uh the aim of the discussion for today's uh meeting is to provide direction to the Planning and Development Department to articulate the BCC's stance on the issue through the issuance. of what would become two

1:53:55policy memos, um one on the forties and fifties that would help direct the development of MPUDs. Um and then also the uh an update to the land development code. Uh and likewise the same thing for for the issue of townhomes.

1:54:13So on the proposed 40 foot and 50 foot front load elements, front load elements, um these would be the lot standards. It's kinda hard for me to read it from here. Um

1:54:27Yeah, I need to get new prescription apparently. So the the the proposed lot standards, uh having met with the industry stakeholders, um, and trying to understand what are the main issues with the forties and the fifties, um w well that was helpful if you zoomed in a little bit. Thank you.

1:54:47Yeah, that's a little bit thank you. Um it was proposed that we think about a minimum lot width of about forty-five feet. And when there's an enhanced landscape requirement that we might talk about a forty-two foot wide lot as the appearance of these uh

1:55:05lots, lot types, and the houses that go on them is uh of critical importance. The minimum lot depth would remain at a hundred feet uh in depth, and the front setback would be twenty three feet to the garage in order to accommodate typically larger vehicles. Um The front setback would be eighteen feet to building uh chassis, which minimizes the garage dominance on the on the uh on the streetscape. And then there

1:55:36would be an allowance to enable front porches to encroach up to seven feet uh within that front setback. Again and give a give a give the in order to uh give a chance for the building to come forward and not have streets be dominated by garages. Uh the secondary front setback. uh say on a corner lot would be uh fifteen feet and the rear yard setback would remain at fifteen feet and the side yard setback would increase Uh from the current five foot to a

1:56:06proposed seven and a half foot setback. And there was discussion to allow a six-foot side yard setback, so one and a half feet less than the than the new default when there is enhanced landscape requirements uh put onto the proposed lots. And then also there's uh there was an allowance for the air conditioner uh pads on the side of homes with an offset to maintain, which I can't read the rest of the sentence. If

1:56:36you could zoom out. Drainage. There you go. Sorry. Um so this would be the uh the lot. standards uh discussion. Are there do you have any uh concerns or thoughts or ideas about LOT standards? And I would also request or ask the Chairman if he has any particular questions for the industry stakeholders, I would yield my my space for them to answer.

1:57:02Okay. Any questions for staff? Commissioner Weightman.

1:57:06It's kinda industry or or you Terry. Well I I think it needs to be uniform and we talked about it in our in our stakeholder meeting last week. The side door setback a seven and a half feet or six foot with enhanced landscape landscape. I think we just need to pick a number and that that's what it is because I could see us how we've been doing negotiating conditions and whatnot up here for project by project and I shared that

1:57:36concern with the with the folks when we met. Um So I'm I'm kind of set on the seven and a half feet as that's that's the standard. And Um You know. That way in in in deleting the six foot Um Based on Landscape is Issue sub Put that out there for discussion.

1:58:02Um

1:58:03Harry, um Do you have any visual depictions of what this looks like? 'Cause that sure would You know, be helpful to see What this looks like compared to what we've been getting and is it is it really an improvement? So

1:58:19Sure. We do have a visual rendering at the end, yeah.

1:58:23Visual preference surveys are my

1:58:25Sure.

1:58:28I can there it is. Uh I can go through all of the topics if you like. Um in one shot. I was just trying to give you all a break to think about the the different technical aspects of what goes into a lot. Um But if you want I'm not sure if you're not I would invite the industry to speak to Uh the typical. This is the typical for the town.

1:58:51What what what are we looking at? A four four townhomes or something?

1:58:55Go back to the PowerPoint really quick. Yeah. There that's the one for the single family homes.

1:59:04Uh ignore the townhomes for the moment. We'll get to that. Uh but Do you have

1:59:09a view from the street?

1:59:11The top illustrates the This part here illustrates the cross section that's been discussed with the stakeholders. And you can see when we get to the right-of-way slide, we'll talk about uh how that right-of-way is divided and what what spaces we are creating. But here on the on the bottom is where you can see oh thank you. Uh here on the bottom is where you can see how the lots are going to uh be influenced by the proposed standards that uh we that

1:59:42I just talked about here.

1:59:46And one of the things that this is showing. This is the forty five foot lot section, and you can see that Um by positioning driveways uh strategically along the street, you are able to create some pretty decent green spaces between them as well as availability for potential on street parking in between the driveways. Um in addition to that, we also talked with the industry stakeholder

2:00:12Uh Terry, hang on for a second.

2:00:14Yes.

2:00:14There's a two foot gap, right? Before it's a eleven foot. And then eleven foot and then two foot. So how are you gonna have on street parking with the two foot wide?

2:00:26Yeah. It's a mountable curb. So you park to the side as much as possible.

2:00:34And it allows the car to get around. These are residential local streets, so you don't know what it is. Just gonna be narrow.

2:00:41Yeah, no, I don't mind non street parking. I think that Mr. Chairman M you know, I would do it on one side. Only but I'm just curious what what does that house look like from the street? 'Cause it you're not showing that picture.

2:00:57Is that uh How are these forty foot wide lots here?

2:01:00These would be forty-five foot wide lots, yes.

2:01:03So what does that house look like?

2:01:07Well I would let the industry stakeholders speak to the appearance of their structures and and what

2:01:14When you have a street full of garage and doors. That's just my fear.

2:01:19And we and we we worked with them uh and to their credit they they suggested uh and were eager to suggest the the front porch uh incentive to enable front porches to extend into that front setback area so that they could Have the front porches be more visible from the uh street and the garages.

2:01:41Yeah.

2:01:42Commissioner Oakley. Do we have to

2:01:44if you look at your pictures down below and you're looking, is that a car in the road parked on the side?

2:01:52That looks to be a pickup truck.

2:01:54Okay. But it's it's about four times as big as the car over here in the driveway.

2:02:01So if you put another car right beside the car that's there parked in the street, you can't drive in between them.

2:02:08Well the

2:02:09fire truck or a or an emergency vehicle could not get in between them.

2:02:13Yeah, the well this isn't necessarily talking about the parking regulation per se, but it would be parking on street parking to one side of the street.

2:02:20Right. I'm

2:02:21just

2:02:21also looks on those it looks like if you park say you park that truck up against the house or to the garage. you're gonna be blocking your sidewalk in this picture. And that's what's been a concern of mine ever since I lived in a fifty foot wide

2:02:39Subdivision.

2:02:42That's illustrating a twenty three foot setback for the f for the front setback that would b basically take you From this line or this point at the end of the sidewalk. To the edge of the house. Um they're showing that y they could accommodate uh presumably the same pickup truck that's here on the street. On the driveway itself. So this is an expansion of the driveway. It's maybe longer from the 20 feet that we currently require.

2:03:07Right. Yeah, you're not going to be able to do You're making a forty foot lot bigger, won't you just do away with forties and go to a fifties? And go that route. I mean

2:03:17Well that that's a I would let the industry speak to that question. Okay. Specifically. Uh Commissioner Weightman.

2:03:23Chair, I think it's important, Commissioner Oakley, if you look, that's every bit of an F two fifty

2:03:29Well I got a three fifty button.

2:03:33That's a coincidence.

2:03:36No, but I gotta measure that out louder. That'll be

2:03:38close. What's the tag number on the close?

2:03:44No gator tagged now.

2:03:50Uh shall we hear from the industry? Yes. Okay. And industry folks?

2:03:59While they're while they're coming up I'd like to say one thing. Uh some Dale Web product that I've seen and I'm going out to see next week.

2:04:07Yeah, me too.

2:04:08They were um When you do these forties and fifty foot lots with Older. Uh fifty five and older. Subdivisions. The pictures I saw with the parking and all 'cause you're dealing with um One person household one car, household, things of that nature, it clears up this issue. It kinda if you do that fifty five and older community They work. And Dell Webbs has good Good

2:04:38product out there that I think works. But it's a separate product than the one we're looking at. You know, other than that. But that particular product works.

2:04:48Yeah, and I was out of that Bexley property too. Um And it it really they did a really nice job with it. So and I I think when you look at the adult adult community over fifty five it's it it it can work a lot better.

2:04:59Yeah, it does.

2:05:00Yeah.

2:05:01Okay.

2:05:01Mr. Briggs.

2:05:03Mr. Chairman Commissioner, it's good to see you all again. Edward Briggs with representing the Tampa Bay Builders Association. Just wanted to say we appreciate the opportunity to have worked with you all, but also with staff on this and what we have before you. We know these have been a kind of a hot topic over the over the past several months and something that you guys have been looking at. So with me today, just to let you all know from the industry, I do have Brian Bullock, BP of Homes by West Bay. And the president of Tampa Bay Builders Association, as well as Martin Frame, with David Weekly, who is the incoming chair for the Tampa Bay

2:05:33Builder Association, and then Trent Stevenson with Level Up Consulting, who is the Tampa Bay Builder Association Pasco Government Affairs Chair. And so, really, what I'd like to do today is these guys put everything together, but really turn it over to Martin and really Trent to kind of walk you through the 40s and 50s on the townhomes as well as the elevations that you see. before you and also to address uh Commissioner Starkey's comments, we can definitely put some elevations together and give you that front look. So And I do have extra copies here, Mr. Chair, if you all want them as well. So

2:06:03motion to receive and file.

2:06:05Move to receive and file.

2:06:06Second, second.

2:06:06All in favor say aye. Aye.

2:06:13Thank you very much for the time today. Martin Frame with David Weekly Homes, incoming president for TBBA, coming in next year. We worked very hard over the last couple weeks to put together all these different standards. We put together both townhome and 40 and 50 foot lot standards. We brought together pretty much every builder that's a sizable builder in the Pasco County area to put comments into this. And so this memo is a joint memo between a lot of different builders that are part of our organization. I think we've got a

2:06:43lot of pieces in here that are important that work together. So I want to go through this completely, if I could, so that you can see some of the interrelationships between them, because I think that's important. Some of the questions that you guys were asking were looking at other sectors.

2:07:00So if we could start with the proposed standards, the lot standards where Terry was before.

2:07:11So Terry went through this pretty thoroughly, so I won't go on too much here. Um the idea behind trying to get the forty-two-foot lot versus the forty-five and having an incentive um to do that forty-two-foot lot, we would be able to save Have a little bit more density in our projects. You're probably talking fifteen thousand dollars of cost that would be added for each additional lot by expanding this out to a 45-foot lot versus the current 40-foot lots today. That cost goes right to the consumer. So there's an affordability

2:07:41aspect to this presentation as well that I don't want to lose. So with the 42-foot lot, is what we're trying to do with the enhanced landscaping package, which is the next section, if you could go to that real quickly.

2:07:57We're trying to give a very attractive street appearance and create a nice streetscape, which I think is a lot of the issues that the board has had over the past couple of years with some of these communities that have been built. A lot of the examples that I've seen have got sparse trees, sparse landscaping, a lot of parking in the townhomes, where you all you see is concrete and cars. So is what we did here is we created some standards that were over and above where we are today by creating more shade trees. And we want to make sure that we

2:08:28are looking at shade trees here. We're not looking at some of the ornamentals, which could be smaller and less impactful. And we're also looking at some incentives for builders to to bring in some more building forward design. So even on a forty foot lot, you could build a a home where you've got some of the home that's in front of the garage. There's a couple uh we've reached out to the various board members. I'm hoping to do a tour with each one of you through a couple projects, uh, one of them at Wiregrass, one of them at Bexley. And I want to

2:08:58show you some of the things that we've been able to do with the Wiregrass folks on a 40-foot lot. And I think that you'll find it pretty attractive, both with the landscaping packages, but also the building design itself. And that you can get a home on a 40-foot lot that's attractive, feels good. Um and some of that is that building being out in front of the garage. So you're not driving down the street purely seeing garages, which I know is is probably an unattractive feature that um has got some of you guys against some of these lot sizes that we're talking about. So within this building standard

2:09:28or the enhanced landscaping standards, we have Additional street trees. Um there's a couple pieces when you get down here into the right-of-way section that allows more street trees to be planted and that's a seven foot strip of grass between the back of curb and the sidewalk. With seven feet, you've got more room to be able to put a tree in there and have it be a livable scenario where that tree is going to survive. And also in the front yards, we're working with staff to try to figure out a way to get the easement needed for utilities

2:09:58smaller. so that we could have trees in the front yards and in the sidewalk uh strip of grass for homes that would be able to um Uh provide a better landscape package from the tree standpoint. And if you look down a little bit further, you see a landscape bed minimum. So another feature that I think will go a long way in creating this nice streetscape is the landscape beds. And that's gonna be your plant material that's gonna be smaller shrubs and things like that. But having a minimum amount of those beds throughout this

2:10:29each lot, you're gonna get a more attractive appearance and It's gonna feel better as you're driving down the street. Um if

2:10:35I could uh just a quick question as far as the trees go. Sure. When I look at the trees in the yard, you can put a bigger tree in there and not have a problem. But we had even had a gentleman this morning. Sometimes you put a different type of tree, like at Ballantry, where they put these big oaks, I guess, and they grow up and all of a sudden they're tearing up the sidewalks. That's right. So I don't know, you you segregate what kind of tree is going to go in that median? You do.

2:10:58Yeah. So there's there are certain species that are more appropriate, like maples, that aren't going to have their root systems that are obstructive and destroying the sidewalks. And some municipalities were actually banning oak. trees from being in that strip for that exact reason. Um so there are some trees that could go in there that are still shade type of trees and the maples and things like that actually grow pretty quickly too. And they'll be designated when we set the summer.

2:11:18I'm curious, do you live in Old Northeast or Hyde Park or

2:11:22Saint Petersburg.

2:11:26Are there oak trees all around your sidewalks?

2:11:29And they're destroying all the sidewalks and they're dying and yeah.

2:11:31But would you rather have your oak trees or just step up a little on your sidewalk? I just

2:11:36Well, and this has given you more room

2:11:37to

2:11:38and I will not pretend like I'm the landscape architect. Um Trent's got a great landscape architect in his shop that could help speak to the better species and what species are appropriate for the right places. And that's what we want to do with staff is to work through that type of landscape list to make sure that we're putting the right trees in the right places. places. It is important. Okay. Thank you.

2:11:57I'm just saying the highest highest real estate around has messed up sidewalks. That's us. They figured out a way to deal with it.

2:12:05Um so those pieces I think are are all interrelated. It's the right-of-way, it's the landscaping, it's the lot standards, all of those things that we've tried to do here is to create a a better streetscape and a better appearance for our neighborhoods and to preserve the forty and fifty foot lots and a little bit different capacity. So it's not gonna be forties and fifties anymore. It may be forty-two's and fifty-twos, hopefully. Um And um just going through here. Uh some other things that were mentioned as far as the right-of-way,

2:12:35staggering the driveways um so that there would be uh more space, uh more green space to allow for better trees, uh, and those trees would have a better root system so you could actually plant some oak trees in some of these front yards where you had the right space. And the 23-foot driveway, another important aspect that's gonna help with parking of the larger trucks, so you can fit the larger trucks without them overhanging into the sidewalk. That also has the benefit of giving you more green space as well, because now you have a 23-foot setback in many of the homes. to

2:13:06plant more trees, more beds. So all those different pieces go together. If you have any specific questions about the right-of-way sections and some of the engineering, Trent's here to help with that. Um but I'll go in and Wrap it up.

2:13:20Well did you have any pictures of elevations?

2:13:25The process over the last two weeks to finish this memo uh was uh We I probably personally spent twenty, twenty-five hours. We probably have more than two hundred hours of different people getting into this to have their different input because we wanted to have a consensus among all the builders so that something actionable across the industry. Um I didn't have time to get all to the pictures put together because we were finalizing some of these details. Uh I'd love to be able to tour each one of you through some of these projects so I can show you real life examples in person of what a good fifty and

2:13:55forty five foot lot feel like with the landscaping with the trees and with setbacks.

2:14:00With front loaded?

2:14:01Front loaded.

2:14:01Just tell me neighborhood, I'll drop a pen and

2:14:03Wiredrass, Persimmon Park.

2:14:05What was it called?

2:14:06Persimmon Park.

2:14:07Persimmon Park.

2:14:08Okay. I'm a little bit biased.

2:14:11We all build nice houses.

2:14:13So what's our s what's our side yard setbacks currently? Five feet. So you're saying it's fifteen grand additional home.

2:14:21To go from a forty to a

2:14:22fox foot side yard setback to a seven and that

2:14:28from a forty to a forty-five. uh you end up losing about 10 to 15 percent of the lots in a community depending on the configuration of the community.

2:14:39So so m so I see rear loaded. I'm looking aren't I looking at rear loaded?

2:14:46There are some rear loaded in that community, but there are some streets that are pure front loaded as well.

2:14:50So did you have problems selling the rear loaded ones?

2:14:53Um not in this market.

2:14:55Mm.

2:14:58They are more expensive to build though.

2:14:59I know they are. We're trying to make them cheaper. Yeah, so

2:15:02I'm trying to wait a minute else. Yeah, thank

2:15:03you.

2:15:04So I'm trying to get some some consensus here because Because there's two there's two options if It was a seven and a half foot and a six foot. Yeah. This board's known for Really?

2:15:20Having Great dialogue on projects. And so when there's wiggle room in there, it it can make for a a a long day. So I'm trying to get consensus here on the right-of-way. Is uh are we good with the seven and a halves with the option for six? Or do we want to go with a with a seven and a half? Side yard setback that is the standard And Basically try you know, cut out Potential

2:15:53Back and forth. On that option.

2:15:59So

2:16:02I'm flexible to it. Um I know I've heard

2:16:08The tightness of it is difficult with some of the air conditioners, putting them in there. That's why they're trying to keep them shorter so I can move them in the back. Don't know if it's a good idea. Um some have done it, so So are you

2:16:20thinking that?

2:16:23I'm leaning that way. Commissioner Oakley.

2:16:27Well, the larger setback be be good, give you a little more room in between houses, especially if you gonna move an AC unit on the side. With the five you have no room, so It's um

2:16:42That would be a better thing.

2:16:45Of interest to me also is the fact how wide's your road gonna be, your interior road? Hello. Eleven feet, twenty two feet. Uh no, it's got to be more than eleven

2:16:55feet. Well lane, did you pull up the uh Oh a line, yeah.

2:17:04Yeah, the top one. Correct. We're proposing eleven foot drive lanes with a two-foot Miami curb, so you'll have twenty-six feet of drivable. Surface. Um and we are proposing that parking would be on one side. Um And so with that you would have if they used the the curb on one side you would have roughly, you know, seventeen, eighteen feet to drive an a vehicle through. So I understand that Parking on both sides is not o is off the table. Right. We were limited to one. But limited to one side

2:17:34you would still have the ability to

2:17:36So most most where I was at They would park on both sides. And you had to drive down the center of the two lanes to actually get in and out of the the houses that were in there. And if you had a fire truck or an emergency ambulance coming through. There's no room for them to get the So you you can't park but on one side, but it will be designated Which side or people are gonna pick their side.

2:18:06Well

2:18:06I think it would

2:18:06it would have to be designated. I mean like uh you know uh

2:18:09But there's gotta be some kind of control. There's gotta be either uh H O A or Or some kind of management there that tells them when they sign in they they can only park and then we're going to be able to

2:18:19and the HOA would be responsible for that.

2:18:21Right.

2:18:21And and that was and again, um if you could slide up to see the where the driveways are. Okay, go ahead.

2:18:30Commissioner Oakley Cobi, uh Commissioner Oakley, to address your concern, the last couple of MPUDs that I've done, we had worked some language out with David to have the HOA control the parking only on one side. Interestingly, the board should know that the general consensus uh in the development business is that Our policy historically has been to prohibit all on street parking. I don't find that it's actually codified in the code and we looked a lot for it the other day,

2:19:00but I think there were some policy decisions years ago and so most of our communities weren't built around the concept of Of doing parking calcs with on street parking. But in any event, we have the standard language to work with it. And just Trent's gonna get into this a little bit more, but I just want you to know the twenty foot uh driveway was done specifically to address your concern about the overhang of the vehicles. We we tried to get it long enough. enough so that you can get the full vehicle up there, but it's not so long that people try to

2:19:30park a second one then and then you're covering it with a second vehicle.

2:19:35Well then you have the issue of fact if if you park on one side that's okay but People have guessed. Where do they park? 'Cause there's not gonna be enough room for Well, two or three couple. So is there going to be extra parking somewhere in that development?

2:19:50Sure. And I think one of the reasons why we strategically showed our driveways the way they are. A lot of in most home in most communities you don't dictate. The driveway, the swing, the the the the uh usually the buyer select which side they want. We would dictate it. So you would create a larger area. So if you can see the two driveways on the uh the bottom, those are closer together. So you've got like fifteen, sixteen feet between the driveways. Um as opposed to the next set of driveways, you have like I think it's thirty-nine feet in between.

2:20:21Uh so you have ample space to park three fifty. If you wanted to, and not encroach into anyone's driveway. So that's that's where we would try and exp have the guest spaces.

2:20:33Um

2:20:33Mr. Starkey.

2:20:35I I took some pictures. I didn't find a lot of the front loaded persimmon parks yet. Um the first one I sent you, Gina. Commissioner Oakley, I think it's your neighborhood. I drove through there after the last your former new neighborhood. Um it's the one with the houses on both sides. How wide were those lots?

2:20:53Well where I was

2:20:55the uh states at Fort King. Okay. This one's

2:20:59no room to put

2:21:00Well um do you have that one, Gina? The first one I sent you?

2:21:04Four fifties, yeah.

2:21:07Nope. Nope. That's the last one I sent you. Nope.

2:21:13Nope. We're working our way backwards. Well, you know, we can talk about each one that comes up. So I think this is one. Of the front loaded forty foot. Is that right?

2:21:24Yeah, that's the alley.

2:21:26Oh I'm in the alley? Okay.

2:21:30That's back loaded. That's rear loaded. Okay, sh let's throw up another picture. This is rear loaded. That's a nice looking street. Um

2:21:43And

2:21:43they have

2:21:43parking spaces in front of the houses.

2:21:45Front of the house and in the back. Um what's another picture? Okay.

2:21:53Commissioner Starkey, if you book up Orange Berry Drive.

2:21:59That it may not have populated on Google Earth yet. Orange Berry. Orange Berry is where the uh

2:22:07that looks like my uh old development.

2:22:09Well that's showing

2:22:10up in

2:22:10Ohio.

2:22:13While you are looking for pictures, can I just say something real quick? Barbable Heights sixty three twenty seven. Just one thing real quick. Actually, as you're looking at pictures, just one perspective regarding the the side yard setback and trying to figure out is it five, is it seven and a half, is it six. So I heard about this forever and ever, five, seven and a half, six. So I went to I owned a home in Trinity, I represented Trinity, I went to the Trinity Community Standards. I never heard of six before, by the way, um until these folks explained it to me. But I looked at their standards from nineteen eighty seven. They're

2:22:44actually like typewritten. And the standards never changed from 1987 to the the full build out of Trinity. Guess what their side yard setback was minimum? Six feet. So what I just ask is that community was successful. I lived in it, I owned a home in it, a lot of people built in Trinity. Give them a chance to get some renderings before you decide the five versus seven versus six because that surprised me, but I was like, what were their standards there? It was good in 1987, and they developed a whole project pursuant

2:23:14to it. Successful project, we should maybe look at that. So I want to throw in there while you were looking, and I didn't want to interrupt the flow, but I wanted to give you that perspective. Thank you.

2:23:22Thank you.

2:23:22So this is um

2:23:23Commissioner Oakley's forming former neighborhood.

2:23:26That's the states of 14.

2:23:28And uh uh it's just the landscaping packages that we allow. The

2:23:32only problem with that picture is you don't see anybody probably. Yeah. And air park.

2:23:39Yeah, because that was the time of day. So so this is not about the parking picture, but Commissioner, when I went through there, I could not believe the five dollar landscaping packages that everybody had. And if you look, it's the one same bush. I mean it's it the So we need to have some kind of

2:23:58thing.

2:23:58And this is this is what happens when you have the lowest setting the floor. that, you know, so we have to regulate to the low, sadly, because we have people doing this. And a a a county full of that is a county full of На во not what we're trying to build. So be you know, so we're gonna have to maybe say Well I once said to Clark a percentage of the house price and he freaked out. So

2:24:28so uh someone else said maybe it's a percentage of lot coverage that has to be landscaped, but that's that's abysmal right there. Well

2:24:36and

2:24:37shouldn't be allowed.

2:24:38That's what that's what the the um text gets at. So if you look at a forty foot lot, the minimum bed area would be a hundred square feet. So that would be plantings within the bed area in addition to the two two trees that would be in front of that house.

2:24:52But I I'm just on record that I just cannot support a forty-foot front load. I will support a forty foot backload, rear loaded only, that's just me. Um but a street full of forty foot front loaded even if you have a tree It's Is it even a single car garage and a tree? I I just I so for me the incentive is if you want to build forty foot, you can do it, but rear load it. And I think they do sell 'cause you sold

2:25:22them in persimmon, 'cause most of the streets there I'm looking are are rear loaded. And some of

2:25:27the O P H they've shown us the They they showed us a product that was forty foot front loaded. They have come back and shown that same product rear loaded and that's the way it's gonna be. It's not gonna be front loaded. No,

2:25:43Commissioner Starkey, did you look at the um I think it was the right-of-way. Dell Web project for the seniors up in Bexley. Those

2:25:50are No, I haven't seen that yet, but someone's giving me a tour.

2:25:54Okay. I'm taking one next week. Yeah. So I think as we go further, if you if you look at that, they they actually have them Regular loaded, front front loaded. And they had the parking on the street as well as on the side, uh uh in the in the regular front of the house, l more like these. And the way they did the architectural, it actually looked good. Is

2:26:12that Taylor Martin?

2:26:17What?

2:26:20Oh it's Pulty.

2:26:21Mm-hmm. Okay.

2:26:22I don't know what they're

2:26:24doing. Mm-hmm. They bought Del Web back in the right-of-way.

2:26:27So I I don't I'm trying to think where Pulse is a very important thing. It's a nice product. It was fixed. It comes over. Yeah, I I just haven't seen it.

2:26:34May I respond to one of the comments, Commissioner Mariano? Two things. Number one, just so you know, the memo you adopted a year ago prohibits that streescape already. That was the whole thing. And this

2:26:45is brand new.

2:26:48Which community? I thought this was Commissioner Oakley's.

2:26:52Yeah, they're still building in there.

2:26:54It was approved like five years ago. It's about a year ago. For any MPUD from a year ago, could not build that because we're requiring two front trees, one of which has to be in the lot and the other one can be in the street. So that's not even allowed. Second thing, I just wanted to point out to you what the I think the Builders Association is saying is we're not even proposing that we keep forties. We're going either to a seven and a half side uh setback or six it

2:27:24with an incentive. So you're going to either a forty-five foot lot or a forty-two. So you're increasing the width and we're pushing the driveway out longer and we're proposing more landscaping. So we're we're we understand the issues you're raising um very clearly.

2:27:42I can't

2:27:44Well it's not a forty foot lot. I mean that's the point I'm trying to make. It's not a forty foot lot.

2:27:48Well these are all fifties on these. And today like you say they can't they can't be built today. Right, they can. Yeah,

2:27:55yeah. And

2:27:55I think Clark's point on on these, uh I don't want to put words in your mouth, but these the the changes that were made a year ago have yet to even come out of the ground. So this is you you you pull this lever and you've got eighteen months probably.

2:28:11My only issue with this one because it's not showing the parking issues, but I I've seen them all around. is the percentage of landscaping On the lot. That's all. W uh I I know he's had other issues, but it's not shown here in that in that photo. That's we can't do

2:28:27this anymore anyway.

2:28:28Yeah.

2:28:31But Um as far as the um well I don't I don't that's how I think we should be doing forties and I would be for the seven and a half foot

2:28:41I'd like to study this a little more than give an answer today because When you talk about the different size lots, we need we need to pay a little attention to that and not make a quick decision, but

2:28:52make one

2:28:53that's a good idea.

2:29:02And I'd like to take this Work with can

2:29:05you put the other pictures?

2:29:06Not only with you, but also with staff to create a better plan, a more refined plan to show you some of the things in the field of what this stuff looks like so that we could all make a very complete good decision um that's well thought out and and well discussed. Because I think there are a lot of pieces here that we could explain. in the field in person a little bit better than I can sitting up here. So

2:29:29but the product we've gotten in the f first first last few years of us wanting forty or fifty foot lots

2:29:36go to another

2:29:37is not been very desirable. Completely and that's what's developed our idea, we don't want any more of that.

2:29:43No, complete understand.

2:29:45If we can tune that to be something very nice then that's a different story.

2:29:49So

2:29:51That could be all I say.

2:29:52And I I'd be happy to take those tours with you too if you want to set set something up with my assistant operating property well there.

2:29:57And I've I've got something with Court with with Ms. Courthy set up.

2:30:00And now is who's is this your product too?

2:30:03This no that looks like Astoria.

2:30:07No, I think I dro I dropped a pin there in Wiregrass.

2:30:11Uh that that's gonna be Lenar's. Wow. See? Shocker. Yeah. With with the right with the right standards. This is the perfect example though. Is it with the white stand? everybody can build good housing.

2:30:24I agree, and it's rear loaded. This is

2:30:26this wastewater.

2:30:27That was all garages across the front. But it's nice and it's gonna age well. That's my point.

2:30:33And the porters drove that. So this is being regulated by the d by the master the master developer.

2:30:38And is what I'm taking here is a lot of master developer ideas that I deal with day in and day out in building in Bexley, Astoria, Persimmon Park, uh Wiregra uh Yeah, Wiregraph.

2:30:49We're not getting neighborhoods like that anymore. But

2:30:51Starkey's got beautiful forty foot lots. Yes,

2:30:54they're rear loaded.

2:30:55Front loaded too.

2:30:56There are no

2:30:57West Bay built them.

2:30:58Now I now I get that in in a development um not every lot can be Rearloaded because when you get along the edges, you can't rearload those. And I'm okay with that. And there's but everybody else gotta be rearloaded.

2:31:11There's a lot of additional costs too. I I worked with Terry a little bit to look at some examples in Persented Park where you saw that rear loaded product. That rear loaded home, same square footage, costs about sixteen thousand dollars more for me to build.

2:31:24So how many sixty to sev sixty foot lot um developments have you brought us? Lots have you brought us in the last two. Sixty foot? Yeah.

2:31:33I'm building right now in Chapel Crossing, sixty foot lots.

2:31:38Like how how many?

2:31:39How many lots?

2:31:40I'm just saying all we see up here is forties, really. Yeah, I mean you're not sitting where we are. And that's really what we're seeing every every day, day after day is forties and it's concerning.

2:31:56so we've we've built them a lot. I I'm trying to get Scott to sell me some sixty. I'm putting you on the spot,

2:32:02I know. What's new that's coming that's sixty?

2:32:05No, there there's a lot of them. Um I think the issue has been though that you guys have been focusing on the forties and the fifties. There are plenty of sixties that get built. Um we're we're building a lot of them ourselves.

2:32:15That's what we that that's literally all we see, right guys? Have you seen any sixties?

2:32:21Uh yeah, so I'm I'm Brian Bullock. I'm with Homes by West Bayon. So our bread and butter is sixty foot and seventy foot lot product. Um and you know we were very successful in Bexley as well as Starkey Ranch doing that. Um the issue we've had recently is just we've sold out uh in Pasco County. So we uh we ended up having to move south, but we're coming back strong. So I think we're gonna break ground later this year in two river. Which is uh

2:32:52State Route 56 and 301. No, no, we don't work in the right-of-way. Yeah, we've got a huge area there.

2:32:57Is that on the Hillsborough side or the Pasco?

2:33:01That's in District One. And I look forward to bigger lots, not smaller lots.

2:33:06Right, absolutely. And then in the villages of Pasadena area, there's several parcels there that we have under contract. Unfortunately there we're just a little bit further out. So we're I think total in villages of Pasadena we have about twenty five hundred lots and a lot of those are gonna be sixties and seventies because that's really what our core business is.

2:33:26Now aren't you going to be I think you're gonna be in Angeline?

2:33:31Uh we'd hope to, yes. We're we're trying.

2:33:33You know

2:33:36We wanna be there.

2:33:37Well we we can't have only forties in Angeline next to, you know the Moffitt with all those doctors and researchers. But

2:33:46the fact of it is a lot of residents are moving here from out of state and other places.

2:33:51Right.

2:33:52You know, you always think well they want smaller or get more people in and more people want smaller lots and Save this. But people are really wanting a larger lot. And a nice home. Well I agree. Sixties and better, I'm I'm for.

2:34:08So I I agree I I believe that's the the dream. I will say though that our forty foot lots in st in i in Bexley and Starkey, those were selling at 500 to probably six fifty in terms of a price point. So we were able to get a premium for them because they were nice. Uh so I think that's that's what it is. That's

2:34:30the keys, right?

2:34:31Correct. Yeah. Correct. So you can do forty foot product very well and it's gonna appeal to people. Now the difference between Rear load and and front load is is families want a yard for their kids to plant. So I agree. I think from a from a a street standpoint, I think you can make both a front load or a rear load home attractive. Um and it's not just the landscaping, it's it's the architectural detail that you put on the front of a home.

2:34:59We can't regulate anymore.

2:35:01Understood. But I think the what our price points are getting to the point where people are gonna be forced to deliver a better product because no one's gonna pay six hundred thousand dollars for a home that's just not you know, that's not worth it.

2:35:15So I I want to make sure you guys know that was that bill seventeen six sixteen oh four?

2:35:26Yeah, but that's on forty and fitch footlights?

2:35:28On any on any house. On

2:35:31Yeah. Well you better be a good builder 'cause if you're not I don't want you.

2:35:35Well, Imagine forties with no architectural detail. That's why that's another reason why we're going to be able to do I I'm s I I told them if that bill passed I would be against forties. uh front loaded.

2:35:48I thought that was all only gonna be on forty and fifty-foot lots. And that passed said, I said, Well I don't remember

2:35:53anyway, so

2:35:53it's okay.

2:35:54Let me move that. So it takes effect July one, but it doesn't stop a developer from voluntarily agreeing. They could on their own impose architectural requirements and Just like they're doing with the m the prohibition on multifamily and industrial, they could impose a condition on themselves To ha impose architectural requirements. And I think Clark and I are working on a couple right now where they where they're in fact doing that because they're aware of the preemption.

2:36:21Yeah.

2:36:24But they don't have to.

2:36:25They don't have to button.

2:36:27we don't have to approve

2:36:28that you don't have to approve 40 and 50 foot lots either. So it's a negotiation.

2:36:33me let me ask a question. I'm look at I'm looking at the picture we have up here. And it's rear loaded. Are those forties or fifties? Town homes. How how wide are they?

2:36:42Um This was a Lenore product, but I think they were twenties and sixteens.

2:36:46Okay. So when you build a product like that, um Would you have a build 'em a lot a lot wider? And What do you mean? Well as far as a a town home, but let's let's say you're trying to like maximize your return and you want to build forties, but let's say you're having trouble doing that and you got setback issues, isn't that a a good product to to put out as well or

2:37:07we we are trying to build more townhomes. Especially from an affordability standpoint, you're trying to get price points a place where middle income Americans can buy.

2:37:17Well and and Commissioner Oakley's approval, we've got a fair amount of input from you all on forties and fifties today. But based on uh Commissioner Weightman trying to bring the townhome issues to a head, we all literally dropped everything last Wednesday and have worked on nothing but townhouse changes for you for today. So I was hoping we could spend a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of a little bit of time going over those. We know we need to bring these 40s and 50s back to you all, and we're happy to have any further comment

2:37:47on it. Yes,

2:37:48sir. Well, I'm not going to the town halls, but I want to say one thing before we m leave the forties and fifties.

2:37:54Yes, sir.

2:37:54We need to build a product. that's affordable for our citizens.

2:38:00'Cause

2:38:01our own workforce we probably have twenty point five percent of our workforce for the county The need's affordable. And we probably it it gets bigger than that, it gets in the forty percent range for the whole county itself for affordable products. $300,000 home is not affordable.

2:38:18Well, so the number one way traditionally that the industry solved that issue is with townhouses and multifamily, and the townhouses needed to step up their game, but front-loaded townhouses are significantly more of affordable, which is why we're trying to find a middle road to say you've got to step up your game. You've got to have better green scrape green space landscaping architecture. And we've got new renderings even from Lenar that if I had them with me today, I think you all would see that

2:38:48they've really stepped up their architectural game. But um again You can't you have to have some front loaded products to become affordable with the smaller lot sizes and the the townhouses. Mr. Stark, understand?

2:39:03So, you know, there's affordable housing and there's workforce housing and they're not necessarily the same thing. Um because really workforce housing comes with federal grants and tax abatements and incentives and And um you know wage restrictions.

2:39:21Affordable it has those workforce is is traditionally police fire teachers

2:39:31Okay.

2:39:31We we knew what you meant.

2:39:33Yeah. So um I mean uh a starting a starting teacher isn't gonna be able to afford any of these, sadly. And we're working we're working on um projects and Um I

2:39:46There is there are some creative way y you guys remember when we had D R I's And I think ten percent of a DRI had to have a workforce housing or what what's the right term? Affordable. Affordable housing component, right? Um and that that went away and I know there's there are counties that are um started putting some of that back into some of their rules. Palm Beach County, for example, has put it back in and others have too that If you build X amount of houses, a certain percentage has to be um

2:40:17work affordable. I I'm very used to saying workforce housing. That's what we say in my my committee at NACO. And I've talked with Marcy. Marcy So our community development has a lot of money to help. with those kind that kind of housing. and would love to work with you guys if you would in any one of your neighborhoods consider Um putting a couple of your houses into A pot that could qualify for

2:40:47affordable housing. We're here and ready to pitch in. And um I had mentioned that to Kartik. and I just haven't followed up with him yet. But he was very interested in hearing that. So we can work with you to buy down the cost of of some homes in your neighborhood.

2:41:06and get a at least a couple of 'em. Affordable.

2:41:11Probably one of the best ways is for smaller lot sizes.

2:41:14Maybe

2:41:15that's that's where that's where you find the affordability.

2:41:18Well you could have a couple. But not all. Like two. That's a couple. Um I di I did ask Mr. Karbala to do some research and I don't know if you were able to. What is the price? Of a ho of a house. That adds to the general fund and doesn't take from the general fund.

2:41:38Yeah, budget's still having to run some calculations on that.

2:41:49You know, density obviously helps and and where you place that density is probably another another thing that we can look at as we do our comp plan and and and we're looking through things. We are exploring other other items, linkage fees, other other types of tools in the toolbox that that we can do to help promote affordability amongst all all classes. So just know that we're we're working on that. I think for the sake of this discussion, you know we're we're we're they they kind of intersect a little bit, but I think it's it's probably a a separate

2:42:19topic altogether

2:42:20for

2:42:20the right-of-way.

2:42:21Another discussion with we don't have the right people here, but just wanted to throw that out there to you. Well let's face

2:42:26it

2:42:26comes too.

2:42:29bigger the lot, the more expensive it is. rear roll road at the front end the more expensive it's gonna be. So You want a better product or you want a cheaper product?

2:42:37Do you want the whole the county filled up with front loaded forties? forties because that's all we're seeing.

2:42:45Thank goodness. They'll probably kill it with those. Um But you know, what percentage of the county should be forty foot front loaded? Well I'd be I'd be curious how many forty foot front loaded have we approved that we don't see yet. Terry, can you get can someone get a number? No, you can't figure that out?

2:43:10it would be big math you'd need like a mainframe computer Terry magician

2:43:16we could probably find examples of of it, it but but to to get you a full quantity, I mean the county is a big place.

2:43:22Yeah, it would be you know, it's too bad we don't have a way to track that kind of stuff.

2:43:28I'm reticent to say this, but m but David can conform

2:43:32or deny. I mean I would tell you that almost em if there was a time period in the county where DRC, this is going back a long time ago, did not allow forty foot lots at all. And I want to say that was Clark, you remember when that year that was? That stopped.

2:43:48So I would say almost every M P since that. stopped until today, until with about a year ago. Allowed forty-foot lots.

2:43:57So but where I was gonna go was those MPUDs don't say they're gonna be Three hundred and fifty forty foot lots. fifty foot lot or they don't do they call them out as as happening of each? It's a it's a default at the bottom.

2:44:15It it just says the minimum lot size is forty feet. It doesn't it's not gonna tell you how many actually got built at forty feet.

2:44:21Right. That minimum lot size. That's the math problem. You'd have to go back and look at how they were actually platted out.

2:44:30But what's built is built at this point. Right. Now we've got to be built

2:44:33yet they're approved, but they're not built yet.

2:44:35Well if they're approved, you can't change it anyway.

2:44:37I know. It's just that you don't know the number of the thousands that we've approved. Yeah, but are already approved. Right. And not built yet.

2:44:45Sorry? It would take we could bring the we could bring examples back. Um but to help answer the question a little bit, last year the board did work on the policy memorandum to address the quantity of forties that were being seen and established within the MPUDs conditions of approval that uh put in place a fifty percent threshold if I'm not mistaken. On the number of forty foot lots that would be allowed to be front loaded and then av after

2:45:15that Uh the remainder had to be rearloaded.

2:45:21We haven't built

2:45:22any

2:45:23none of them PUDs that have come in. There there was one that I've seen it might have been Barbara's client, uh well it's either Clark's or Barbara's client. Um that did come in with a mixture of forties, fifties and a few sixties.

2:45:37Mr. We haven't seen these in reality. Just because you're seeing a minimum 40-foot lot width in an MPUD does not mean how that's how we build the communities. Almost all of the communities that have approved 40-foot lots, if they're more than say 80 or 100 lots, have a division of lots. And quite frequently, we have 60-foot lots, we have mostly 50-foot lots. Lots and some forties. We differentiate within each community. You're just not

2:46:07seeing it. Again, you approved the memo last year. It takes a year to get a site plan in and approved here. And we're then we're out doing mass grading now on the ones that just got approved a year ago. So you haven't seen it. But we don't we're not going out building all forty foot.

2:46:22No, I'm not saying building, I'm saying coming through asking for approval. No.

2:46:27But they all have since last year, all of them have the standard language that David and I worked out with you all that says you can't exceed the fifty percent lot cap.

2:46:38Maybe maybe this will help. So do you remember when Twin Rivers was approved? When which one? Twin Rivers, the the that M PUD?

2:46:47Twin Rivers? Two Rivers. Two

2:46:48Rivers, sorry. Okay. Two River Two Rivers was approved I wanna say about eighteen months ago. Okay. It I think it I think it predated the memo just barely, but regardless, it allowed forty foot as a minimum lot size, and there are going to be literally thousands and thousands of fifties, sixties, and maybe even seventies. And the

2:47:12my point was and those plats are just starting to come through. That's the that's just the delay frame that time frame that you're looking

2:47:20at. I'm sorry this whole thing takes a big delay. W one of the things, and you're gonna hear this from these guys when we start the townhouse issue. is that one in my estimation, I think Barbara shares my opinion on this, The side foot uh side yard setback is a really big deal because that relates to the distance between the units and several of you all over time have told us that you just thought some of the houses were too close and they were operational issues with air

2:47:50conditioners. Swales and other things like that. And I think you're right. And I think you're crazy. And just a whole bunch of things. So I think we're close to figuring that out. But what we believe you really want to see is a lot better landscaping than you were seeing in the one that Commissioner Oakley showed from five years ago. And so that's what one of the areas of focus we're trying to get is maybe even to the into the code now. If we can all agree on the landscaping on townhouses,

2:48:20for instance, we're gonna put it in the code. So it won't just be any new M PUD. It's gonna be anybody that doesn't have construction plan approval. So you will immediately start to see those coming in much quicker. So You know, that's part of the presentation these guys want to get to on townhouses and but some of the same processes. Whatever we agree to on landscaping, we may if we can all get everybody on the same page, we may be able to put it directly in the code.

2:48:47All right. So we're gonna look at the forties and fifties. Hopefully you'll set up tours for us all. And then but let's get to the townhomes. Go ahead.

2:48:53That sounds good to you.

2:49:07So it'll be this a similar discussion uh in at least in terms of the format. We'll talk about townhouse lot considerations on some of the technical aspects of that, and then move into the right-of-way discussion as well as How the uh units form up on the street. And then we'll talk about the landscaping. And at the end of this, we'll actually talk about architectural features that would be on townhomes as well. Um

2:49:38So in terms of the townhouse lot consideration, um there's been a lot of discussion both for front loaded and rear-loaded uh townhouse uh products over the last couple of months. Uh what's before the board for today at least is a discussion for front-loaded townhouse units only. And the one reason for that is because the Planning Development Department is already Uh has is has a study already underway looking at what revisions we need to make to our ordinance as as it relates to traditional neighborhood

2:50:08design. Which Is where our ordinance considers the townhouse rear loaded product. Um so that's underway. Hopefully later this year we'll have something to to show to the board regarding that. Um and so for now we'll focus on the front loaded and what the impact is to the street because a lot of times when we've seen the pictures, you just have driveways hitting the street and it looks like a a large uh concrete mass. Out in front of these buildings with little landscape areas. So

2:50:41Mm.

2:50:44Um while they get that up. These are the following standards that have been discussed with uh stakeholders. Front loader town home products. Um Would be Platted. Uh and would have driveway with individual those that have individual driveways to accommodate parking for each town unit would be platted. The front loaded townhome buildings would be limited to two to eight units per building. This was a ratio that was discussed last year. um

2:51:15as part of that memo that we talked about a few minutes ago that was included in there. In addition, um the setback is also increased the front loaded the front setback is also increased for the townhome product uh to twenty-three feet for similar reasons that we just talked about with the forties and fifties. Um

2:51:38And also the driveway with uh we would consider a maximum of making it two feet wider in total than the garage door width on the uh townhouse product and this would uh enable Cars to actually open their their doors um better. than what's been currently uh constructed.

2:52:03So those would be the the considerations on a per unit for a townhouse building?

2:52:11So in terms of the right subway for townhouses, um We're using the same right of way considerations as we talked about in the uh forties and fifties discussion with a fifty foot right-of-way, twenty-two feet of pavement, that would be eleven foot drive lanes in two directions, a five foot sidewalk, um a seven foot of sod, or I call it parkways, basically the space between the the sidewalk and the uh curbs. Uh and and then a two foot mountable

2:52:41curb. Uh and again you can see it in the um cross section here, how that all splits up with the twenty two feet of lanes, the two foot of uh curb, the seven foot of green space between the curb and the sidewalk, and then the five foot of sidewalk.

2:53:01Um and likewise in the previous discussion you heard a little bit about um some adjusting or some incentives for the different easements um that exist. Uh similar consideration being made for this product type to allow for additional room for trees and landscaping, utility easement will be allowed under sidewalks such that five feet of utility easement is under the sidewalk and five feet is on the lot. And what we've talked about previously and it was mentioned at the last board meeting Um during the um I believe it

2:53:31was the hand card twenty discussions. Um Trying to figure out ways to put Um Other utility infrastructure under streets or sidewalks in townhome developments and so we've we've outlined that. in the uh proposed standards here.

2:53:52Um we can come back to the uh cross-section and have the industry sort of walk you through that. I just want to really quick get to the landscaping piece of it, uh similar to how it was discussed. in the forties and fifties discussion, the following table shows you a minimum uh landscape Uh

2:54:12Uh that would be required for the front loaded units also to try to break up the the amount of pavement that exists between the building and the street as the driveways reach for the street. So in a two-unit uh townhome building, you would have a minimum green space of 650 square feet with two minimum shade trees that amounts to 15 percent minimum landscape beds of green space. And then you can work your way down the table. Uh in a three unit building eight hundred uh square feet, in a four unit, nine

2:54:43hundred, in the five unit, a thousand fifty, and so on, until you get to eight units, which maxes out or tops out at fifteen hundred square feet of green space. And the number of trees increase with the number of units. that are uh proposed on a on a per building basis. All of that amounts to uh approximately fifteen percent of the area uh would be green space.

2:55:08Do we allow AIDS? Do we allow AIDS?

2:55:11Yes.

2:55:12I thought we made

2:55:13it just to

2:55:14six.

2:55:17Oh

2:55:17gosh. Okay. Last year, last March, twenty twenty two.

2:55:26Um shade tree ratios are listed here at the at the bottom of the table. Any lot or trees required by the table above will be shade tree or palm tree, and it has that ratio of three palms to every one uh shade tree. Um

2:55:42And you can't substitute with understory ornamentals. Um Driveway flares we resolved last year in March of twenty twenty two Driveway flares are not required for townhomes in order to encourage the landscape areas and to reduce that overall pavement uh appearance that occurs. Um

2:56:06And then f finally I'll just quickly run through the architectural features. So townhouses it was discussed with the industry stakeholders that townhouses uh are slightly different creatures than um single family homes where we talked about the appearance of single family detached homes. there's a market for the uniqueness uh and curb appeal that buyers are looking at um The market for townhomes are a little different. They can explain it better than I can, but essentially people are

2:56:36looking for identity and community characteristics in their townhome development more so than an individual, unique appearance on a per unit basis. That's unlike the single family detached neighborhoods. Nevertheless, Uh in the single family detached neighborhoods give a list of things that you can do. uh articulate a unique appearance on buildings uh On a per unit basis. Here, uh, the industry

2:57:06came together and discussed what three different architectural features could be accommodated on townhouse developments. And so they gave us twelve um Different types of architectural features that can be varied from development to development uh in order to establish a an identity or or character to the to townhomes townhome development that is attractive to the marketplace.

2:57:34But you're going over this, but we can't regulate anymore, right?

2:57:37Well uh you can regulate these Three units or more. Okay. Yeah, but you can't regulate the two unit version based on state law.

2:57:46So no more two in two unit versions.

2:57:49That's simple, yeah. I agree. So um so they talk about there's discussion on roof styles, um hip, gable, boston hip, so on and so forth, arrangement of window openings, which that uh in and of itself um definitely makes a building look different from another Window grids, sighting types, accents on the gables, different stucco treatments that might uh show uh variations, uh hardy

2:58:20board banding, decorative shutters, and brackets, stucco cornices, windows doors, garage doors. Um decorative coach lights and and uh building forward design again, making an incentive to help bring portions of the of the livable building will say closer to the street and make the garages appear receded or or behind. the porches. So those are some of the opportunities.

2:58:46Is that what is that what we set before?

2:58:49I thought

2:58:50it was five. Is that there's five on a house?

2:58:52Well typically the builder's gonna put more than that. Um but we we had the threshold at at least three things to make things different.

2:59:01So Do you mind? Uh so when you say number one roof styles, are you saying I mean a roof I don't know why we're calling that out unless unless you're saying it has to go from a hip to a gable. Or because they're either gonna have a hip or a gable or a Boston hip. I mean, so why is that even a style? Because the uh Or else it'd be flat. what's happens in modern townhomes but I don't think the ri Unless you're saying the roof styles have to vary? We should take that

2:59:32one out. That shouldn't count as one.

2:59:34Yeah. I I mean we can let the uh the industry speak about.

2:59:41But again, it it may sound like a freebie, but

2:59:44Well they well what's the alternative?

2:59:49A single root style does.

2:59:54I was gonna let the industry speak to that 'cause they they're more familiar with it than than I would be. Um but it's important to point out even the obvious Uh, because these are nevertheless part of the building. So

3:00:07Yeah, but That's like saying you have a door or don't have a door, you're gonna have to have a door.

3:00:14Uh don't have the examples to the right-of-way. Martin Frame again with David Weekly Homes. Uh worked on this document ad nauseum over the last uh ten days or so. Um this is probably one of the most difficult pieces of this document is the architectural because every builder does things quite differently. Um and architectural styles are very much subjective measures. Um things People think are beautiful, and some people hate certain styles. The roof styles, there are some varieties in there that allow you to get some interest

3:00:44in the buildings where you transition, like you said, Commissioner Starkey, where you transition from one style to the next within a same building, it breaks up the building so it looks like individual units as opposed to one monotone building. So um I've got some examples I don't have them on my hand right now. But the project that we did just two weeks ago. Uh that we got approved in in Seth's district um had that. It had some gables uh along with some hip roofs and those two things t together

3:01:15made the building more interesting.

3:01:16Martin, let me ask you a question though. If we're gonna try to like you trying to go to townhomes because they're more affordable, et cetera. One of the big expenses we have with the houses are the insurance rates.

3:01:26Yes.

3:01:27So do you get a different price from a gable roof compared to a hip roof when you're doing an insurance?

3:01:32I'm definitely not qualified to answer that.

3:01:36Hip is the least likely to take off in a hurricane, so they have the best

3:01:40Right. And I I think the building standards, uh a new building today is gonna be your biggest factor in insurance rates. A new building date today with new building code. Um is gonna get you the lowest rates. Uh versus

3:01:54we're going to be looking at this for a little bit of time, if take a look at those insurance rates, though I think you'll might find that the hip is definitely a huge, huge savings.

3:02:05I'm just throwing it out there.

3:02:07Um if you don't mind, um I'll do a quick overview. A lot of the concept here is the same as what we saw in the forties and fifties. It's look and feel and trying to get more attractive buildings. Um a lot of the same methods. The landscaping, the trees, the right-of-way section here is the same seven feet in front of the sidewalk between the sidewalk and the curb to allow for more trees. Moving the driveways apart where you do have the room to do so to plant more trees, the minimum of green

3:02:37space provides you with the room to plant those trees also. We measured a lot of projects around the area that we felt worked, and we've measured some projects which have been specifically objected to with pictures up here. We targeted the numbers that are in here to try to avoid some of the things that have been characterized as not good looking or aesthetically displeasing. Um one of the main things within

3:03:07that is driveway widths not being allowed to be any wider than two feet than the garage door, um, that's gonna create more green space and just gonna allow the building itself To be a little bit more attractive, so you're not looking at all pavement as you're driving down some of these roads. In addition to the right-of-way section with that seven feet of green space, also gonna create more green space so you're not looking at pavement as you drive down the road, where you've got a section that's got right-of-way next to curb

3:03:38that continues right into the driveway. And so you've got all that concrete from those three different pieces all put together that looks like it's just one C of concrete. And what we're doing here is to try to avoid that.

3:03:47So

3:03:48Can I mention the police?

3:03:49Uh just to point out the that driveway width control piece. would mean and correct me if I'm wrong, but it would mean Uh a one car driveway for a one car garage and a two car driveway for a two car garage.

3:04:03Correct. And uh Commissioner Starkey, you had some pictures two weeks ago um that you put up before my townhome project got heard. Um that showed uh a sea of concrete where you did have one car garage as a

3:04:18preserve.

3:04:19Is that what it was? So this is

3:04:22customer.

3:04:23Client.

3:04:31So I I think that is what we're gonna get here is a much better design that's gonna be more attractive. Um just running through a couple of the other out of

3:04:39Ed Briggs client. Throw those tanhomes up there. Do you have 'em yet? Okay, put 'em up. I think this is Highland Homes. I I I came across this when I was researching Highland during Senate Bill sixteen oh four.

3:04:57No, the townhomes. There you go.

3:05:02That's an example of townhomes that have no variation between them, right?

3:05:08That would be no variation. Yes.

3:05:12Um but that is what we're trying to avoid here. And that's what these controls are are are meant to do. Um some of the other things that are similar with the 40s and 50s, trying to get those easement for the utilities to be placed under the sidewalk to give us more space to put trees. Uh and we're specifically calling out shade trees versus any of the ornamental trees so that we're getting good substantial trees out there that'll look attractive. Yeah. On the landscaping section, that table is supposed to be very concrete, very organized, easy

3:05:43to understand, and easy to follow, so there's not questions when we get into designing these buildings and getting the things permitted. To your point, South.

3:05:52Commission Wayman.

3:05:53Uh yeah. No, this is what spurred this was the dialogue at last board meeting.

3:06:02Yeah. I still prefer rear loaded.

3:06:07Sorry, I can't it's hard to get past it when there there's such a difference. Um

3:06:14And I just wonder how have Have we been able to shave off any of that cost? uh on the driveways. Have we worked with our fire marshal to

3:06:24You talking rear load?

3:06:25Yeah.

3:06:26Um

3:06:27I mean the alleys, not the

3:06:28right-of-way. I think to be determined, there's a lot of pieces that are interconnected to to get with that. I I've talked to Terry about it uh briefly. Um On a separate Um a separate goal of mine is to work with him on trying to incentivize rear loads so that they are more affordable to build and and that they are all able to be utilized more. Um but this is foc focusing on front loads because they are two different beasts and they have their own sets of issues that need to be addressed. Um

3:06:57how did did your front load did your rear load sell on persimmon?

3:07:01We we didn't build any of the products. Oh yeah, that's that was

3:07:03uh

3:07:03that was Lenar products.

3:07:04Yeah that was Lenar.

3:07:05Um we are in our third phase going to build some real townhomes at persimmon though.

3:07:09Nice.

3:07:10Um Townhomes affordability. This is probably the best place for us as builders to be able to supply affordability. Um we're able to get prices down to the three hundreds and maybe even with the two in front of it still in certain situations on townhomes.

3:07:25Just so you guys know I've our fire marshal Um has has been requiring Sally's looking at me, really wide alleys 'Cause we had to do it in Longleaf. Um super wide alleys to allow two trucks to go by when you have uh a road in front and a road in back and they don't require That for a regular house it's has the driveway in the front. They don't require access into the back. So it doesn't make any sense

3:07:55to me and it shouldn't It that's a self inflicted rule that we put on ourselves.

3:08:00And and I could help with a lot of that. We do a lot of reloaded product in the city of Saint Pete, city of Tampa, um twenty foot wide alleys. Yeah per perfectly functional. Perfectly functional. Yeah. Happy to help with that.

3:08:11So yeah, I think that's a big thing to bring forward. If you have other

3:08:16Other jurisdictions that are doing it differently. Um we need to have that information so we can work on it.

3:08:22And even I think persimmon was treated um reasonably favorably. Um but that took a lot of work from Scott, Scott Sheridan and the Porter family to work towards getting those alleyways set up in a way that was uh functional. Um Um

3:08:36so

3:08:36maybe something to look at as well.

3:08:38I I mean I agree with Commissioner Starkey that this type of product does look a lot better. Um I think functionally Now you might have heard the story or not. My my daughters had townhomes up in up in uh Orlando and they were going to UCF up there. And the parking was brutal.

3:08:56One had a parking spot in the garage, one had in front, the other one had to find a spot. Mm-hmm. And the minimal spots were traveling was like just broodlow was a Just a mess every night. And if anyone come over when I come over. To find a spot was like you I could be like Twelve buildings down. So I do see the merits of this every step of the way. I would love to see whatever incentives we can do to to help with this on the affordable part.

3:09:24And I'm I'm glad someone brought that up from your association already. So but yeah, whatever help you can give us on what other jurisdictions are interpreting it, and we had Well we've had other stories about things we seem to be misinterpreting it with the fire department too. So if we

3:09:38can

3:09:40get the information we need to make it solid, we're happy to work with it. Yeah. Happy to help.

3:09:50Right.

3:09:54If that's

3:09:56anyone else want to speak to it?

3:09:59Um I Whoops.

3:10:03I don't know if anybody wanted to speak to the uh to the to the graphic from the

3:10:09cross section is very similar to what you saw on the single family. Just a twenty-three foot driveway to allow room for the trucks. Um

3:10:17you've got the same seven-foot strip of grass uh that would allow more truck. Trees, five foot sidewalks, uh that 23 feet of setback also gives you more room for the green space as well for for the trees to be in there. So all those same elements that we're working on with the right-of-way sections and working with the utility department to figure out about uh getting the easement down to five feet um on the lot and five feet under the sidewalk will go a long way to uh to getting a more attractive streetscape on of the the townhomes and uh single families.

3:10:47Is the idea to line up driveways? Or is this just the way they got in one count? Because I mean that was what we talked about as 40 and 50.

3:10:55That's um that's how the graphic happened to work out for that one, but I think to the extent um as builders are working on their plans to try to separate the driveways. In this case, the internal, the two internal weapons, or one car garages. And so we've offset those driveways to give you a wider breed space between those two units.

3:11:12So question to this uh graphic

3:11:14I'm looking

3:11:15at here, this is an over uh from up on top, is this a typical front loaded townhome? Okay. So that looks like, from the just the roof line itself, like a hip roof.

3:11:26In that case it is. One big roof. This was done more to illustrate the right of ways and not so much the architecture. So this was this is kind of a generic building focusing on the right-of-way.

3:11:41If you

3:11:41look

3:11:42at the

3:11:43roof, it's got a staggering room. Yeah, no, good uh good option. The the upper drawing.

3:11:49Oh, up there, okay. Yeah, multiple things, yeah.

3:11:56I wouldn't mind actually if we get pictures of that so we can take a look at it as well. I know when have a

3:12:00renderings of some stuff that we've just designed at David Weekly um that incorporates this very similar uh for the project that we're we're doing over with uh Tony Tanico and um Seth District. Happy to share those and talk about them more specifically.

3:12:18Again, a little bit biased, but I think they turned out pretty well.

3:12:21Okay. All right. You wanna wrap it up, Terry, or is there anything else? I mean I think he's wrapped up. Any other questions for staff? We're good for now? We'll have them do a little homework and maybe you'll give us more information too. Well,

3:12:35you look for direction. So I would like a little bit of direction. Let me give you what my take is on what I've what I've observed on this great discussion today. Um I think that there's some additional meetings that you would like to have with members of industry to show you examples and concrete things. I think they've laid out Um pretty succinctly and and logically the Yeah. that I think uh the board is interested in looking at. Uh what I would prefer here is to bring back

3:13:05a draft policy to you. So what I would ask is, is after you conduct any field visits or things that if there's input or or items that you have that we we collect that and then staff can put together a draft policy, unless you want to have another meeting like this to discuss it and then we come back with a policy, but my preference would be to try to see if we can formulate consensus and build a policy that this board would support. That would be the most expeditious way to handle it.

3:13:36I'm going

3:13:36to

3:13:36probably say it's going to probably take us a month between all of us to get up. We're going to go look at other things. When agreed?

3:13:47Chair, I think we need to be expeditious. If we we can do it

3:13:51quicker, we can do it quicker, I guess. But

3:13:53right. So we've got some board dates. So I mean uh clearly whenever you're comfortable or we can we can set a target, I need time obviously to to pull the policy together and and I know my schedule is

3:14:03like jamming for this coming week and the week after might be better.

3:14:07So I mean do we want to target a draft policy coming back in in July? It's either going to be the first meeting in July or it would have to be the first meeting in August.

3:14:14I don't think the first meeting in July we should be able to do it, right? First and July last fine. Okay. Let's go let's go for that.

3:14:20Okay, we will we will target that and we will hound you to make sure you're getting your visits done. All right.

3:14:26Um

3:14:27Commissioner Starkey.

3:14:29Ms. Um Martin, question for you. Do you only build in Pasco County? I what other counties are you bu is David Weakley in?

3:14:37We're in

3:14:38Well you're a national builder, right?

3:14:39Yeah, and we're in Tampa, Orlando, Jacksonville, and here in the Tampa Bay area, we're in Pasco Penellas, Hillsborough, Manatee, and Sarasota County.

3:14:47So in Manatee, are you building forty foot lots?

3:14:49Yes.

3:14:50And and like what subdivision?

3:14:54Uh we've got some that are upcoming. Um we've got some existing. I've got a a forty-five and a fifty in um um escaping me now. It's uh Neil's community. Um

3:15:06Lakewood Ranch?

3:15:08No. No, uh North

3:15:09River

3:15:09Ranch.

3:15:10What's it called? North River

3:15:11Ranch parish. Yep. And Pulte's got some great forty foot product in that same community. Uh that's good looking stuff.

3:15:18Okay, what about Sarasota?

3:15:19Um Sarasoto, we're gonna be building some Um

3:15:23not not age restricted.

3:15:25Yeah, we have forty foot, fifty foot uh product. Uh in Sarasota we've got um both both front and rear loads on on the forties and both front and rear loads on uh fifties.

3:15:40Um what's the name of the subdivision?

3:15:42Uh one of them is Lakewood Ranch. Okay. Um it's being developed right now. We're starting to go vertical on our models probably next month. So it's going to be a couple months before we have models available to view. Uh the other one is Vestera down in Venice. That'll be a 40-foot front load product. It's the same stuff that we build more or less in Persenta. It's the same product that we're up in Persenta Park.

3:16:03And what does Lake does Lakewood Ranch have any restrict you know requirements on the quality?

3:16:09Yes. Well it it depends on where you are. They have they have everything within the community. So they've got about two thousand homes they sell a year just in that community, and you've got every single price point you could imagine. You have price points that are very high end, two million, three million plus, and you have price points that are three or four hundred.

3:16:26I mean on their

3:16:27forty

3:16:28But I think the commissioner's question is they have a very active master developer for Lakewood Ranch that has

3:16:35a model. But they're not overly restrictive on our um architectural. They have some of the same builders that build here in Pasco County doing things not too differently in the north sections of Lakewood Ranch, where it's more affordable. The southern sections tend to be the more expensive. Um North of State Road Seventy. Yeah, well yeah, that's exactly right. North of State Road Seventy, right around State Road Seventy. South of University is their very expensive waterside area that's in Sarasota County. Um so they've got everything there and they've purposely have tried to hit every piece of the

3:17:05market and allow pretty much every builder that you could imagine Uh that's in the state. um a place there. I think he bought I think he got about twenty four active builders in Lakewood Ranch.

3:17:15And and what are their setbacks between houses?

3:17:19Um I was just having a conversation today about our five foot setbacks. Oh yeah. On our projects. Okay.

3:17:24All right.

3:17:24How'd that comment? How'd that was it?

3:17:26They had five foot on their larger lots. At least back in back in the early two thousands.

3:17:32And I will say the standard for Sarasota County is six feet. That is the standard um lot setback of S Sarasota County. You could get it down to five. um by asking for it through a variance, but the six foot is standard. Okay. Okay.

3:17:48Yeah, thank you. Commissioner Weightman. Weightman.

3:17:51Am Am I I going going to be allowed in Dell Webb to look at it?

3:17:57No I'll give you the answer.