Comprehensive Plan Amendment (Consent) – CPAS23-20 SAV/Old Pasco Townhomes– Providing for a Comprehensive Plan Amendment to the Future Land Use Map (Map 2-15 and Sheet 14) from RES-3 (Residential-3 Du/Ga) to

2:24:42Uh the item before you is PDD 240038, a small scale comprehensive amendment titled SAV Old Pasco Town Homes, C A C P A S 2320.

2:25:00Can you pull the mic closer? The audience is saying they can't hear.

2:25:05The applicant is proposing a small scale comprehensive plan amendment from Res three to res nine on approximately eighteen point three six acres of real property. The intent of this amendment is to allow for the development of 106 platted homes at 29319 Hadlock Drive. This amendment would amend map two dash fifteen, sheet fourteen. Yeah. Map 2-13 rural areas to remove the subject property

2:25:36from the Rural Neighborhood Protection Area 4 and an accompanying MPUD will be filed at a later date.

2:25:45The the subject site is within the South Market area. It's also within the Rural Neighborhood Protection Area 4 and the Urban Service Expansion Area.

2:25:58This is the aerial of the property.

2:26:06For our contact map, uh the subject property is located on Old Pasco Road, north of Overpass Road. It is located within the Urban Service Expansion Area, which is the dashed area on this map. It's also along the west side of Interstate 75. The subject site is on the east side of Old Pasco Road across from Grantham M PUD and within approximately three thousand feet of two large Pasco County School campuses which can

2:26:36accommodate the increase.

2:26:41There is a Cat One weapons on the property. Um less than an acre. And the boundaries of this wetland will be assessed at the time of site development.

2:26:54The existing featured land use is Res 3, with Res 3 also to the south, north and east, and Res 1 to the west across the right-of-way.

2:27:07The proposed feature of land use is Res 6.

2:27:16The Planning and Development Department is recommending removal of this property from the Rural Neighborhood Protection Area 4 to better align with the intent of the service urban service expansion area. which is to become a focal point of higher density development within Pasco County. There, here it is on the larger map. And a zoomed in portion of the earlier four.

2:27:44The proposed amendment is consistent with the following comprehensive plan policies. Uh policy flu 919, Urban Service Expansion Area. Policy Flu 143, Transitional Land Use, Policy eight one Two South Market area. And policy DGR531, requirements to minimize adverse impacts to wetlands.

2:28:13And uh in conclusion The cleaning development department is recommending the local cleaning agency find the proposed amendment consistent with the comprehensive plan and recommend approval to the BOCC.

2:28:28Okay, thank you. Any questions for staff?

2:28:32Can you show a map? Or do we have a map? that overlays the urban service area over this rural protection area. Trying to figure out the two that

2:28:47There's a big overlap. I don't have an air.

2:28:49I'm trying to figure out how

2:28:50to do it.

2:28:51We're gonna bring it up. Yeah, urban service over rural protection. There's a lot of

2:28:56mixing there. It's 20. twenty.

2:29:00This is exactly what they complain about.

2:29:05Dash twenty dash four zeros. I think dash zero zero five zero zero. And

2:29:13maybe while they're looking for that, so the thing I'm struggling with is res six seems a little inconsistent with what's around there. So if you want to speak to that and then also

2:29:23urban concentration area.

2:29:24Unless I'm missing something, it looks like you're kind of taking a donut hole out of the rural section area. So exactly. Um I'm not understanding. Under community.

2:29:34Yeah, um so it was recommended by County Staff to remove that parcel just because of the inconsistencies within the comprehensive plan between the urban service area and the rural neighborhood protection area. Just because the vision of both of them is don't alignment.

2:29:49So all right. So and as Chris says, This isn't a nibble off the edge.

2:29:55Right.

2:29:56And I will tell you that I think it was Mr. Riley here a month or two ago that said, you know, today we nibble off the edge here and we nibble off, don't worry it's just that five acres here and three acres here, next thing it's ten acres and twenty acres. And now we want to take it out of the middle, so where does it stop? Where is the area protected?

2:30:16So this is Barbara Will High, 6327 Grand Boulevard. So obviously this is my expertise. I was I did the comp plan that put this rural area, protection area into the comp plan in 2006. What happens, this is what happens when you don't update your comp plan since 2006. So in two thousand six you put the World Protection Area in there. As time went on County decided this should be an urban service area. It is an urban service area. The problem is the maps haven't been updated. So it's both. Not this

2:30:46property owner's problem, this is a problem with the comp plan. We're not changing anything other than fixing Fixing this. Apparently have to do it piece by piece until we update our comp plan. But this is an urban service area. This area is planned to change. This is a four-lane road. This is these are town homes, 106 town homes on a four what will be a four-lane facility. It is the proper planning. When you look at the fact that It was designated urban service area. We're talking about an area in between what will be a four-lane

2:31:16road and an interstate. which a parallel road to the interstate It's it's an area that's not going to look like it. It does. You know, you had Grantham Ranch to the north that came in with with it came in and did single family, so

2:31:30So Barbara that may be.

2:31:38So where does it stop? Does it stop at Old Pasco, the The boundary of the four lane road. So is everybody west of Old Pasco or they safe or is this supposed to go up and down I seventy five until we just chew out that whole section?

2:32:01So can you give us maybe a little history so There's a rural protection area and then How d how did an urban service area get superimposed on top of it? Just I'm not saying that we didn't get it. Because the wrong I'm trying to understand how

2:32:16the Board of County Commissioners decided they want they designated an urban service area. So 2006, leading up to 2006, was decided to put into the comprehensive plan rural areas. That was done in 2006. We have four rural areas. Then comes along 2008 ULI report. ULI comes in and says Okay. Great progress in 2006, but you we recommend you you go down and change to market areas. So you start even further planning the

2:32:46county into market areas. And when this area was looked at between the interstate and Old Pasco Road, it was decided that it would be in the south market area together with the urban concentration area. So that was the effort that took place in 2010. Why? Nobody cleaned up this map, so we didn't have to be here talking about this map. I don't know. Probably because it was a pe you know, in 2010 it was piecemeal. And they came in and did the urban service area, market

2:33:16areas. And it wasn't a total update of the comp plan which we're now going through now. So that's how that happened. It was an implementation of the 2008 ULI report that put these market areas in place and the board adopted this as an urban concentration area. It has mobility fees for urban, it is for urban development, it's got all the policies for urban. This is right in line with that. So and and I have to say, at least Grantham Ranch, they didn't fix the the the map. This

2:33:47one staff said maybe it was even the attorney's office, probably. Said you can't have both and fix the map.

2:33:53Can we zoom the map out so we can what's the extent of the urban service area over the rural protection area? And then my question is probably better Answered by Terry. Is it better that all this if this is the way it's going to be? Then Don't you do it in one fell swoop and rather than on a parcel by parcel basis.

2:34:19It just seems very unfair to the people in in that area. They don't know what to expect. Do I am I rural or am I urban?

2:34:29Yeah, it's a hatched area. The hatched area is the USA.

2:34:32Well it's actually the expansion area, not the urban service area. It's an expansion to the urban s the urban concentration area.

2:34:40So we're expanding the urban area over the rural protection area.

2:34:45That piece, yeah. Right. Along 75.

2:34:48And part part of the problem that I think Laura said mentioned this is that you have conflicting policies. You have an entire policy series talking about the urban concentration area, then you have a policy series that That addresses the rural neighborhood protection area. So you have an inherent conflict on how are you going to go forward with development on this property. So If you take it out of the role area you can then follow the urban service area development criteria.

2:35:14Uh Mr. Chairman, the the intent, the late the most recent intent that the board has expressed is the urban expansion boundary that you're seeing on the on the overhead. And what's supposed to happen is as development comes in, this turns in this turns from a crosshatch to red. The red color starts to fill in that shape that you're seeing on the map. But if we if we take a step back and think about for a minute, um m a lot of the geography that's

2:35:44in this uh expansion area right here at I-75 and fifty two, let's say, and going south in Old Pasco has only recently been uh heating up in terms of the development potential. So you Gateway Hub, for example, on the northwest corner of fifty two and seventy. I've recently came in with revised plans to develop that property. Pasco Town Center on the southeast corner of the interstate also recently came in with revised plans

2:36:14that broke ground now a couple weeks ago. And so we're see Overpass Interchange recently came in, what, a year or so ago. So you're seeing a lot of uh r new interest in the area and what's going to happen is it the the recent intent of the board for the expansion is taking hold. Uh to Mr. Moody's point, is it makes sense for one fell swoop to just make the adjustment and make this expansion red? Um that's

2:36:45uh certainly an option that we can pursue and I think staff is already looking into making that change in the maps to Barbara's

2:36:53point to update the the comprehensive plan. How long would something like that take to kinda go through the motion? I think it's actually being worked on right now.

2:37:01I but have been told there's someone in your department that's working on it, but I'm not quite sure where they are on it. But I mean it would be a compliment amendment like anything else. It would require coming here, going to the board, being transmitted to Alhasy and Back. You could do the entire area at one time. Though there does of course there's a it could be staff initiated and we do have a noticing Would have to be done, you know, to the folks who have property in that area and around it.

2:37:24The the latest that it would be done it would be part of the Pasco twenty fifty update, which is happening this year. The writing of the future land use uh element is happening this year. But when would that be implemented? The Pasco twenty fifty plan? Yes. Uh that's scheduled on our project management uh times timelines for twenty twenty five. Writing this year, adoption next year.

2:37:49Okay. Can can I ask a quick question, have residents of this area been notified of this? 'Cause I know people that live out there. And they're not quiet. Well

2:38:04w

2:38:04about this kind of issue. But

2:38:05do you do you mean when this map was adopted by the Board of County Commissioners years ago? Because it was actually went through the process of a public hearing and adoption for the urban service area. How long ago was that? She said twenty ten. Yeah, I I don't Barbara might have better recollection, but it definitely was after two thousand and six. Uh it was but it was twenty ten. Okay, it would have gone through the regular compend adoption process because it's actually in the comprehensive plan of the future land use map series.

2:38:31I'm just surprised they didn't rectify the world.

2:38:34Right.

2:38:34Yeah. They over

2:38:35they overlap, yeah. At the same time. Right,

2:38:37right, I agree.

2:38:41Might not caught it.

2:38:45I mean that's not applicants problem, but I think so.

2:38:49And there are other expansion areas besides this one here. Isn't there one that goes up the Sun Coast Parkway?

2:38:56Yes.

2:38:59And does that also affect a

2:39:03protection area? I'm

2:39:05not seeing

2:39:05anything about that one.

2:39:07Yeah, I don't think there's any overlaps.

2:39:10No.

2:39:13I mean I understand we're talking about a board from the past and my bigger concern is how does anybody have any expectation when they buy or invest in area, okay, I'm in an area that's protected to be rural and Then some other board comes in and declares this is gonna be urban but yet the map still says I'm rural. How do they ever how does anyone ever make a decision?

2:39:38Well and vice versa for the developer.

2:39:40And I'm not sure where I'm at. It just seems like it needs to get fixed one way or the other. It's either urban or it's rural, but it ain't both.

2:39:48I I think the a the answer may be that You you look at the Surami context and see what's actually happening?

2:39:55Well I

2:39:55think about

2:39:55what's going on to the east of the interstate and I mean Although it's a big area of controversy, we know that that train has left the station and Connected City is on its way.

2:40:09Like

2:40:12I I have a question. Maybe this is for Elizabeth. So there's the the development that's just to the south of this. So did that meet the criteria of the rural protection areas? Because that doesn't look like it's got pulled out.

2:40:28This came to my attention because in Barbara's application narrative she referred to the Gartham, Gantham Ranch MPD and how it was not taken out of the rural s area and which I thought was amazing. How do they know what their entitlements are? How how are they developing? I I don't understand how this works. So that's when I said, Well, we know about this one now, we should be removing it, you know, from the the the rural area. Um and then I was then learned that there was this concept of going back and cleaning up the entire map at some point.

2:40:59'Cause just to the south there's a whole there's a whole development across the street. Across the school school. Yeah. That's the M P U D and Unless res three is okay. I don't know.

2:41:17going on here?

2:41:19the the policies in the comprehensive plan for the uh rural neighborhood protection area are slightly different from the policies associated with the rural transition area, the rural character area which is all the way near Hudson, and then the Northeast rural area which is the traditional rural area that most people think about. Um and then what policies

2:41:41what provisions and policies that are associated with the protection area. would inhibit the development on the property? What what uh what obstacles do they come up up against because of the designation of protection area.

2:41:57Well th the there are policy provisions, I don't know them off the top of my head, but there are policy provisions that speak to um uh site planning strategies, things to mitigate the appearance of the development within the rural within the rural neighborhood protection area. So it doesn't preclude the development from happening. It just has to have uh you know the appropriate Buffering, let's say, and the appropriate appropriate uh mitigation for transitioning that development or making it

2:42:27match the local context. In this case, as was previously mentioned, Old Pasco Road is definitely a strong boundary line between where the urban service area will be and where the rural neighborhood protection areas will be. The east side of the road is much different in character than the vast majority of the west side of what's on uh west of Old Pasco Road.

2:42:53So could it continue existing within the urban service area? I think it's cleaner to actually just sort of remove it from the

2:43:00Are there vision roads? Other vision roads that go that bisect that rural protection area. What I'm seeing is today the boundary Might be Old Pasco Road and Somebody comes in and builds decides that this road is now the new boundary and we keep creeping and creeping and creeping based on

2:43:28somebody's vision of a roadway.

2:43:31That's mostly

2:43:31uh Well.

2:43:34in the that r that area right there.

2:43:40That's south of uh C PAD. Can you can you make the the rural

2:43:45layer see through? Transparent.

2:43:57Oh.

2:44:12Um

2:44:12I can't

2:44:13do it.

2:44:13Pasco mapper is representing the uh highway vision plan and functional classification roadways that are in the comprehensive plan. And uh it looks like the answer is no. There are not other vision roads that will bisect or crisscross this that will create

2:44:29new

2:44:29bonkers.

2:44:30Alright, so old Pasco could be relied on as a firm boundary. Uh yes.

2:44:41And do we know what they propose? They want to go to RS six. Are they is this town homes, apartments?

2:44:46There's uh a hundred and six plotted townhomes.

2:44:48Okay, so then I won't ask the question, can we design town homes to fit in rural character? That's a stupid question. Well that's why

2:44:58I was struggling with this one. Make it look like bars.

2:45:06Uh it's truly the barn dominio, Brian.

2:45:13Tell them Holmes with your horse outback.

2:45:15Okay. Any other questions for staff? I know I think there's somebody here in opposition or and then we still haven't heard from the applicant.

2:45:24Well the applicant first,

2:45:25right?

2:45:26Is the applicant present? Do the applicant want to come up

2:45:29Yeah, Barbara spoke.

2:45:32Okay. Well I know you provided your feedback, but I didn't know if you had anything else. So we'll bring up the opposition.

2:45:39Okay, if you're here to speak on this item, please come forward. Um Name and address and just confirm that you've been sworn. Yes, sir. Come on up.

2:45:51Thanks for being patient with us.

2:45:55We save the best for last.

2:45:58Okay.

2:46:01Uh my name is Dan Wells. I live at [address removed]. Uh I have a disability and so I don't have a a very good memory. So I record my Oh perfect. I have to do that. Okay. Uh I can't hear very well and well it's part of my vision. But Can you pull that map back up of that area?

2:46:27Yeah, the zoomed in map a little bit closer to is that what you're looking for?

2:46:32No, that the area that was in question.

2:46:35Okay.

2:46:38Okay, I don't can you see the screen okay?

2:46:40I can see the screen. I'm not yeah.

2:46:42You want it zoomed in more than that though? I mean that's the area in questions right in the middle of the screen. Do you want to

2:46:47show the PowerPoint better?

2:46:49Yeah, maybe the PowerPoint.

2:46:50Okay.

2:46:58That's not it.

2:47:02It's common.

2:47:15Yep, that's it.

2:47:17There you go.

2:47:18Okay. I bought property there in 1985. I bought six and a half acres. Where's your property?

2:47:25Where's your property? Where's your property?

2:47:29At my address, [address removed]. That's just to the north, east, southwest. It's

2:47:38Finger pointer ain't working. We have a pointer there, so

2:47:43this thing. Just push the button? Yeah. Okay. There you go. You gotta hold it. Um where's outcome money? I can't. Yes, sir. Yep.

2:48:02Okay.

2:48:05Okay, we we got that now. We just need the clerk just needs you to go back to the podium though in order to speak so she can make sure she captures what your recorder's capturing.

2:48:13All right. That's my property. Now all this property in this area right there was originally owned by Dudley Thompson, K.E. Morrison Lionel. He sold us this property. in pieces. The restriction when we bought it But you had to have five over five acres. You had to have uh you had to build a house on it or you have to have uh uh a double white trailer. Well I couldn't afford a house,

2:48:44so I bought it Double White in and I moved out there in 1987. So I've lived there thirty-six years. Now for somebody to come in a few months ago And buy some property and say, Well, I'm gonna change the zoning because We're here now. But I've been there thirty six years. And my deed. had the restrictions.

2:49:14Five acres. You couldn't split it up. And build a whole bunch of different homes. And We don't need more homes there. No, we don't. She closed the border. Yeah, so you don't need homes anymore. So Our property should be protected. Uh like it it says in the paper.

2:49:40Uh

2:49:45I remembered a whole bunch of things when I came up here, but then I forgot by the time I got here.

2:49:53So

2:49:54your

2:49:54property's looks like it's a few hundred feet to the southeast. My property is right there. If this if this gets approved and this gets developed as townhouses, how is that gonna impact you? Okay. What do you what do you perceive?

2:50:12Couple days later, a couple days ago, I found out my neighbor

2:50:18Right here. Sold his property. And I looked at the right-of-way. And he sold the property. Chew.

2:50:32Uh what was that? I had it wrote down.

2:50:39I did, right? Yeah.

2:50:40JP investments?

2:50:42He sold it to LP Investments LLC, right next door to me. And there there is no place right here right next door to me to do a development. So why would a developer buy that property? And the developer, I looked it up today, and his name isn't even on there. Just just LP JP investments, but there's no name. Now I can look up every one of those properties everywhere there.

2:51:13and pull it up and I can tell everybody's name, who owns that property, how much they paid for it, so on and so forth. This one I can't. What's the name?

2:51:24JP Investments.

2:51:25JP Investments L L C. It's a company out of Montana. Their office is at uh or their house, [address removed]. And they just bought this property in November the 8th of this year. And this is where, this is their address for the property that they Bot next door to me.

2:51:56Yeah, sir, I I don't wanna I don't wanna cut you off. I I want um I wanna you to be cognizant of your time. You have three minutes, okay, and I think that buzzer's gonna go off in a minute. So I need you to focus on what your points are and

2:52:07What I need to understand

2:52:09the issues.

2:52:10I need to I I I have to make a recommendation to the Board of Commissioners and I gotta understand does this affect me? Okay, I understand your neighbor buying and possibly developing and unfortunately I'm not able to get to the Sunbiz site to tell you who JP Investments is, right?

2:52:26Well if the perse people up there But at the end of the day I wanna know how does this project affect

2:52:32you.

2:52:33They're they're going to develop that one. So like you said earlier, I think, was it's going to get it they're gonna take pieces out of it progressively. Okay. Well that's that's fine. I don't have much longer to live. Wait until My kids inherit the property. and then rezone it and let them worry about it. I live here. I've lived here all this time. I don't want to move. I can't

2:52:58move. I'm too old to move. The reason I'm asking you the question that way is That Well this is a comp plan so this is legislative but in a quasi-judicial hearing just because you don't like something isn't grounds for us to deny it. You have to s you have to cite a reason that's associated with the comprehensive plan or the land development code. and just I don't like it isn't listed in the land development code. So you gotta tell me

2:53:29what what policy that the applicant is violating and then how it's going to detract from your peaceful enjoyment of this property. and then maybe we can give some consideration to that.

2:53:42Okay. When we had a big storm uh uh a long time ago and there's a Water comes across here, across my bridge. and comes back in here and goes right through this property right here. There used to there was a bridge right here or a a road. Yeah, and right now it has three culverts there. This this water Going right through that property there to the other side, which I I'm not sure if it's shown it there or not. But

2:54:13That covert right there, I go real good rain. What are you gonna do with that that property when it rains and then where's the water going? Yeah, uh And this road here, Hadlock Drive. Yeah. Years ago we couldn't even get down that drive. It was all washed out and everything. I worked for an asphalt company. I bought asphalt from them. Uh and they allowed me to pay for it over time. But I put twenty eight thousand dollars worth of asphalt. on

2:54:43that road. For a half a mile. Okay. Uh So do I have an investment in this? Uh do I don't want somebody else Coming in and Moving in a whole bunch of people there or even next door. If this gets approved, it's gonna be pretty easy for them to approve it next door. Uh I'm sure. Uh So like you said, my time's almost up. I still have three minutes according to this.

2:55:13Yes, sir. I mean it I think the timer went off about when I said when I made my statement. So I guess i we'll give you another minute if you got another point or two to make, but we gotta we gotta cut it short.

2:55:23Okay. Well the the thing is is somebody from out of state, say from J New Jersey, this company's from New Jersey. They uh uh uh just uh uh a few months ago they incorporated four more cu four more companies. Uh the same company that's trying to do this. Um It's I I don't know. I don't have a point there. Yeah. Other than you know, they're gonna start eventually taking up We moved out here because it was peaceful, it was quiet. You know, you couldn't

2:55:54build anything out here unless you had five acres. Now, if they w they want to change it so that you can build a hundred things on five acres. Or eighteen, whichever. There were a hundred and twenty things out of them. Yeah, which is that's not what I signed up for back in eighty five when I bought it.

2:56:11No, we we understand your point, sir, and and and honestly looking back at the parcels, I think the five acre requirement somehow set sale a long time ago 'cause a lot of your residents around you have s smaller pieces than five acres. But I I understand what you're saying. Thank you for coming out.

2:56:31I still got two minutes um change to draw me. All right. Thank you.

2:56:36Thank you.

2:56:39Mm. If there's anybody else other than I I see somebody coming up to the podium here. If there's anybody else, just please come sit up front so we can kind of expedite and and keep things moving along here.

2:56:51Hi. Um my name is Kim Briarly. I live at [address removed]. Um so I am just one property.

2:57:03I'm a girl, I'm directionally challenged. I gotta put myself into that. I'm sorry. Um I am just I'm two properties south of that, on Old Pasco Road. So Um yeah. I have points I scribbled and um the obvious I don't want to look at town homes out of my backyard. I bought five acres in a rural area for a reason. Um I originally came

2:57:33down and moved to Lake Renadet and then decided no, I need five acres. So um the expansion area, it's an expansion area to some people, but to other people it's their their life. their house, their yard where their grandkids play and I I don't want to see my home considered an expansion area.

2:58:00Notices in the mail, you know, that's subjective. It's the mail, whatever. Um removal from a rural neighborhood protection area kind of negates the word protection. It's not protected if it can easily be removed. It I didn't buy into that. Um and I have wetlands And Cypress and a creek that run through my property and into the adjacent

2:58:30properties. And I like that. I don't like my flood insurance that I have to pay and I can't imagine that a development of that is gonna make the creek any better for my property. Um as far as the town homes go, Townhomes just up the way were built as for rental straight off the bat. Just I

2:59:01get more.

2:59:03Piggybacking on that. Um the rental properties, I mean rental townhomes just up the way, kind of across from the Quail Hollow area, they're they were built just to be rentals. I feel like we're kind of being pushed out. by smaller Thanks, Dad. You know. It's it's just not consistent. Like I thought also, how are you going to make townhomes look consistent with the rest of the

2:59:33property? Um you can't. Absolutely can't. And then I thought of something else that was brought up at an earlier one. What's to stop it from going, okay, well, next year, I think we need to make it a res nine. go on from there and then before you know it it Kids. Completely blown out of proportion. Um, what I'm saying is there's there's a lot of factors to be determined.

3:00:04And um I don't think that very many of my neighbors had an opportunity. to be here or they would have a few of my neighbors are here We're all not pleased about it and if any of you live on acreage, just imagine if somebody built some townhomes right next door and that's what you had to look at.

3:00:22Well keep keep in mind and and probably most importantly that this will go back to there is another public hearing after this. This does go to the county commission meeting. So your you and your neighbors have a chance to be there and

3:00:33absolutely

3:00:34provide your feedback and we appreciate you coming out.

3:00:36Thank you. And the way I found out was you know from the developer sent a letter and I'll be better prepared next time but

3:00:43When when did you purchase your home there?

3:00:45I'm sorry.

3:00:46When did you purchase your home?

3:00:48In twenty sixteen.

3:00:49Twenty sixteen, yeah. Okay.

3:00:51But I didn't dive deep into all the county this and thats and not everything else when I purchased it. I just knew it was a rural protected area. That's what I was told when I purchased it, which made me feel good and protected.

3:01:05Well your your wetlands are protected, be assured of that. They're category.

3:01:11Right. Ca can I ask a quick question. Do you recall that Old Pasco Road was a dirt road?

3:01:18Um I've been here for twenty years but I I do recall all of the Longhorn that was up the street and the schools weren't right across the street when I purchased and I'm slowly seeing it being shipped away and you know they're paving paradise and putting up a parking lot.

3:01:36Well what I'm trying to get to here is that that was a dirt road when I relocated to uh Pasco. County so I just wanna let you all know that. It was a dirt road.

3:01:46Yeah.

3:01:47From Old Pasco Road was from Wesley Chapel Boulevard.

3:01:52Y'all can dirty.

3:01:53All the way to fifty two. It was a dirt road. Right.

3:01:57Okay. No, thank you.

3:02:03All right. Who's anybody? Yeah, we we can't speak from the audience, sir. Who's next? Uh Nancy, you want to go next or

3:02:18Yancy Hayeswood [address removed]. You know protected areas are dear to my heart, so I can't let this go. Um I think uh the gentleman is correct. Once this gets started, they'll have a sprawl. You could make a difference right here and put some conditions on it to make it balanced since you've got the urban over the protection. protected area. I'm not sure maybe a barn look would work, but How about

3:02:49the townhouses having balconies, a lot of landscaping, maybe fifty foot of woods as a buffer around it would be nice, so that it blocks it from some of the people, low lighting, covered walkways, gazebos. Let's do something nice for these people since we're taking away something from them that they loved. Thank you all.

3:03:19Right.

3:03:22Jen Kerouck, [address removed]. Um I'm just as I was listening and I was looking at policy under the Comprehensive Plan FLU 2.33. Um states the requirements for rezoning requests. And I didn't see it on the memorandum. Maybe it was done or not, I don't know. But if you go to Um 2.3.3 D. There's requirements for the development plan that

3:03:52I didn't see in The um on the agenda packet. Um And it says that at D one it needs to describe how the proposed development will maintain and protect the existing rural neighborhood. under the rural Protected areas, standards for review of rezoning requests, rural character areas, and rural neighborhood protection areas.

3:04:21Um so we we wouldn't see that at this stage because it's a comp

3:04:25it's a complaint of

3:04:26the

3:04:26It's the the point the the point to be made is that we won't see it at all because they're asking to be removed from the area. If they were in the area, everything Jen is talking about would be applicable. But once we remove it from the area, if we remove it then then none of this would apply. That's

3:04:47I think that's

3:04:47the reason they're asking to remove

3:04:49it. There would still be buffering requirements and all that that that go along with A normal Euclidean zoning but

3:04:56To the point being that, you know, I've been to a lot of these meetings and not to cause a bunch of mess, right? I really am not But I continue to hear existing homeowners, existing landowners state their concern because they purchased a home in a rural area. with the understanding that as long as they lived in that home, that to some degree their rights would be protected as well. And and

3:05:26I know that I've heard a lot about and I'm not the land the Landowner that's moving to create this subdivision. you know, has rights as well. But as I come to many of these meetings That is what I'm kind of hearing and so where there is already a protection in place. that these folks purchase with the understanding that this protection you know, they're covered. Their homes are covered and as we

3:05:56continue to as the gentleman put, you know, or Mr. Moody stated, you know, chipping away little by little. the more that that their kind of You know, it seems as if their rights, you know, for their properties are not as important as the developers rights and that particular landowner. It's landowner against landowner, and I think that That needs to be taken into

3:06:26consideration, uh, especially when they purchased in an area that was protected.

3:06:35Thank you.

3:06:38Is anybody else is that all? And Barbara, do you wanna come back up?

3:06:50So I have Christy Barrero here and we could continue to go on with this, but this is another situation where I can't talk to you about buffering because I don't have the MPD plan here. We can't talk about any of the things that that you've heard that they want us to address because we don't have the MPD plan here. We'd like to continue it so we can bring the MPD plan back. Um perhaps I I said I had all these with complains and M PUDs and then I let a couple go forward without my M Puds and uh I I think we would do much better if we had this conversation with the MPs. We haven't heard any of these comments, so this

3:07:20is a good, you know, this is a good process that we spent the time to hear the comments. But we can either have Christy Barrero you know present or we can continue and uh to a date uncertain and we'll bring the MPD back so that we can actually talk about

3:07:32you know

3:07:32the layout for this project, what our buffering is, what we're proposing. Um so that's my recommendation, but I'm I'm happy to for Chrissy to come and and talk to you as well.

3:07:46Anybody up here?

3:07:49Yeah. I have to be honest with you, I know a number of people out there and there are a lot of businesses out there. For instance, I know one gentleman runs a baseball camp, uh another individual runs a uh

3:08:03Uh horse riding academy.

3:08:05That was this place. This property was a commercial.

3:08:08This was there at one time. Thank you. I didn't I didn't know they had moved on. Because I know some of the people that have utilized their services.

3:08:15What's on there now?

3:08:17This is a this is a nice area, it's a rural area, as you well know. And I can understand why some of the people who own that property would want to convert it over to uh income property for them and for the benefit of some other people. But you know, I want the board to understand there's a In the gross area, as you probably well know, Barbara, that there are a number of apartments already there. And um and I mean a lot of apartments are built around the groves, the theaters, and

3:08:47um As I said earlier, I know other folks that live out there too. Some of 'em retired out of uh

3:08:54And they like it out there, so. I'm s I'm not sure. I'm kind of curious on why they did not show up. Uh because uh one of them is in the construction business himself and owns a fairly sizable uh construction firm in Tampa. And so

3:09:15Folks I'm gonna have to do. I know how I'm gonna vote on this down the road, to be honest with you, so I'll end it there. Yeah. It is it is a nice area.

3:09:24So do you want to hear from Christy or you wanna continue?

3:09:26Chris, do you wanna do you wanna provide feedback or question?

3:09:30So I mean Barbara I understand your explanation of the Surface area expansion and all that what I'm still struggling with is everything around there is future land use of Res 3. So all of a sudden now we're flunking down res six. So if you can help me maybe it's something to do with uh urban expansion area and and help me get my head around

3:09:51it. Yeah, so we have res again, old comp plan, res threes, res sixes, res nines. This is we're talking about what's the product in this location on a future four lane yet road, in proximity to your schools where you've invested in. We've got Grantham Ranches, single family. This is a townhome project. This is a lower density townhome project. The townhomes can be up to nine, ten eight ten units per acre. This one we're gonna stay under six, so it will be a a much less dense townhome.

3:10:21But we you know, we talk about planning principles with with your planning director and when you have an urban concentration area, this this is planned to change. And when you look at what this facility will be, it started out as a dirt lane dirt two lane road and now it's gonna be a four lane um parallel facility to 75. This the area is going to change and so when you look at that, that's why you go from three to six. I hope when they do the comp plan we don't have threes to sixes anymore. A lot of them do low density, a lot of plans do low density, medium density. And in

3:10:51high density. and then you would just fall in medium density for suburban development. um as opposed to these distinctions between we've got to change from three to six or six to nine, 'cause three, sixes and nines I think are all suburban densities.

3:11:03Where

3:11:04where's

3:11:04the next nearest project to this?

3:11:07So yeah, you can't see unfortunately this is too close. You can't see their schools. You can't see but I think Christy was gonna pull out a little bit. Yeah,

3:11:14I

3:11:15mean

3:11:15I I think some key things to highlight here is I mean you're you're one mile from Overpass where they just build a whole intersection and a whole interchange at I seventy five. And

3:11:22you have the

3:11:22schools

3:11:22and

3:11:23you have Grantham and

3:11:24there's a lot of

3:11:25half a mile from the school, half a mile or less than from Grantham

3:11:27Ranch. There's a single f well you can see that single family project just at the south. Single family detached. And then to the north at the intersection And is is is

3:11:39Grantham still a res 3 density?

3:11:43It is. Christy Brerre with Height Design. Grantham is a res three density. It's all single family detached. Um that's on the south side. It's this is a little bit older map. I'm not sure if it's completed or not or if it's still under construction. You can see the school property on the west side. of Old Pasco Road. And then as Mr Williams was saying Farther north on Old Pasco is the Tampa Bay Country Club that's single family detached as well. So as Barbara was mentioning, you know, the Overpass

3:12:13intersection or interchange has just been constructed and opened. Old Pasco Road is going to be a four-lane road, 124 feet in width. A lot of that right-of-way has already been purchased by the county. Mm. The county is also running utilities up Old Pasco Road for projects along 52. So this area, you know, as we were saying, is in the urban expansion area. It's also in the South Market area, which is supposed to be a high density, high intensity area. It seems

3:12:44odd. that it but it's because it's a parallel reliever to Interstate 75. So you have Old Pasco on the west and you have McKendry Road on the east and those are supposed to relieve the congestion on 75. And so in that corridor it it was always planned to have more intense, more dense development.

3:13:07I I'd like to rebuild you indicated that El Pasco Road may alleviate some of the traffic on I seventy five. You have an R V park in there also. And

3:13:20the traffic when it when there's an auto accident on the north part north of say Wesley Chapel Boulevard the trucks will take the turn off and they will go east

3:13:33And then head north and uh I think it's uh I I apologize, can't read but anyway, I don't see the alleviation of traffic uh on Old Pasco Road until it it is repaved and rewidened. There are and that's gonna be I've been told That's that's down the road, so whatever that means.

3:13:53Right. So that that is the future plan for the road to be widened. It is in the comprehensive plan that its ultimate build out will be four lanes. Um all of that takes time and money for that to occur, but that is the county's plan.

3:14:06Four oh okay. So I think you just answered the question I was gonna ask. I mean Didn't. Is this funded on a five year CIP? Is there funding for this road or is this just a road identified to be four lanes and the comp plan whenever we get around to it.

3:14:24I'm

3:14:24Right.

3:14:25I'm not aware of if it's funded or not. I do know that there are utilities that are actively being planned for this road. I assume it's going in at the same time.

3:14:37Um I spoke with Clay Watnik Watkins from uh project management. So w it was originally on the CIP for the FY twenty twenty five to twenty twenty twenty thirty four, but it was removed. So but they haven't determined the next Future for it. I think it was funding issues.

3:14:55So all right, so this is beyond twenty thirty four?

3:14:59Yeah. As of right now.

3:15:01Oh wow. Because it was on that row for the right-of-way. Yeah. Okay. Are there other pending applications along Old Pasco Road at this time?

3:15:16or other approved M P U D's or

3:15:25Well,

3:15:26Within the rural area.

3:15:28Right. Within that rural protection area. Which I'm trying to figure out how we even had a res three in the rural protection area. Right.

3:15:37Well that's

3:15:38that's the problem.

3:15:39It's not your fault.

3:15:43I'm not blaming anybody. How did you make

3:15:45a res three area rural

3:15:47either?

3:15:47So the rural protection Protectioner used to go all the way over.

3:15:50This is a sin of the past. I'm just trying to figure out how we best deal with it.

3:15:59Yeah, so this graphic just shows a little bit more clearly the rural area, that it is a small portion of land east of Old Pasco Road. The southern boundary is Overpass Road, and then somehow it includes some of the Tampa Bay Golf and Country Club in the northern end.

3:16:19And then Grantham

3:16:20Ranch. Right. Grantham Ranch is obviously the roads that are shown south of our property. Mm-hmm.

3:16:32Yeah, I think that's the biggest issue is trying to figure out how to deal with the sins of the past.

3:16:35Is is the development on the north is that developed as in compliance with res three. Density.

3:16:47Which

3:16:48Tampa Bay Golf Tampa Bay?

3:16:52fifty five and over. But yeah, I would imagine it's resolution. That that predates two thousand eighty six though. Yeah.

3:16:58Right.

3:16:58So before the rural area was even created. Yeah.

3:17:01Correct.

3:17:02And on the old Pasco side of of Tampa Bay Golf and Country Club is a horizontal apartment project. on the between Tampa Bay Golf and Country Club, right south of 52, there's a horizontal apartment project coming in. On the west side of 52, um west side of Old Pasco as you go south of 52 you've got garden style multifamily apartments, townhomes, single family. So you can see that pattern on 52, I mean excuse me, on Old Pasco.

3:17:34Filling in.

3:17:38But certainly when the county made it the urban concentration area, that was that you know in the South Market area.

3:17:48I mean I think it's back to us really. I mean it it's there the problem is there there's the conflict between the urban service expansion area and the rural protection area. Um so Yeah.

3:18:06And they're I

3:18:06mean,

3:18:06they're asking us to resolve it for their specific parcel. I do personally agree that needs to be resolved globally. But I and I don't think that's something that should be they should have to wait on

3:18:15correct. Agreed.

3:18:20Correct. I mean the urban service area through that corridor makes sense from a planning perspective.

3:18:27Yes. If you looked if you looked at it without having the girl and you said, What is this? you know, with water and sewer and and a four lane road is what's planned for it and

3:18:36But but if I drove down there today that's not what I see. It's a four lane road on paper with no funding till at least twenty thirty four. And I'm sorry, how big is your I I know you can't answer from the audience if you'll just ha hold five acres? I see people that live on five acre tracks. I don't see I don't see town homes. I I see some single family, but at least it's developed in accordance with the existing underlying land use category, and now we're asking to

3:19:07increase that for a product that doesn't really seem to fit and I mean I'd be curious, if r if you had to stay in the rural protection area, you'd be required to try to preserve that character. I'm trying to figure out how you're gonna design a town home to do that. If we gave you Res six and said no, you're not out of the rural protection area, then what are you gonna do to help?

3:19:27I mean the neighborhood to the south is within that rural protection area and those are minimum lot size homes there. I mean that's not that that that neighborhood's not a rural neighborhood.

3:19:37No it's not.

3:19:38So

3:19:41And that was found consistent with his rural policies.

3:19:46The problem here is that We have to decide whether we're protecting something or And I'm not saying anybody here's guilty of it or the current Board of Commissioners. This was clearly something done in the past, but You go and you declare something This is an area which is protected, oh but I'll make an exception for you to come in and build a subdivision over here and you to build some townhomes over here and the only people not getting protection are the people that live

3:20:17there and have invested there for the long haul. I I Yeah.

3:20:20It

3:20:20should be

3:20:21yeah, it should be

3:20:21removed all at once or it should be And and I and I and and I understand

3:20:30Of course sometimes there's probably no explanation to the people that live in this area, but okay, there may be some justification that we start to chip away at the edges, but now we're chipping out of the middle.

3:20:41We'll grant them.

3:20:42We're gonna poking a hole in the middle.

3:20:44We'll grant them tipped out of the middle. Or should have.

3:20:51Did was it was it removed from the map? It doesn't look like it was removed from the map.

3:21:09But there's three other rural neighborhoods that there's minimal uh definition or guidelines for designs uh in the comprehensive plan.

3:21:19And we just took another one we took one out on the consent agenda today. Well

3:21:24y so you so you looking at Grantham in twenty fifteen when Grantham came in, it had the same issue. It had urban service area that was done after urban conservation area that was done after the rural area. It was found consistent with that urban area. I mean that's how that happened. Now should it the big have c come out? Yes, but didn't, but it certainly what that group did at that time was looked at the fact it was in the South Market area and the urban concentration area and that came after and they found it consistent with that. That's how that occurred. That

3:21:54wasn't done before the urban service area, that was done after the urban service area, that zoning. So that's that's how that happened. It wasn't just looking the other way, it was recognizing that it was in the urban concentration area.

3:22:05But the difference was it was the feature of land use was REST III.

3:22:11That's correct. So

3:22:13that's that's what I understand, but it still is within the res three, which is again.

3:22:19So that's the issue. Is that do you provide for another product type? from going from single family to townhomes. Do you provide for townhomes? Do you look at the future of how this road's gonna be? It's not gonna look like this in the future. What's you know, what's the proper development for that location? That's the issue. Is it town homes? I mean I like to eat. focus on product 'cause we're trying to get a br variety of product. These are single family um attached.

3:22:47Well when yeah,

3:22:47we're not talking about an apartment

3:22:49complex.

3:22:51Let me just

3:22:52change gears between but about rural protections or something else that didn't get talked about up on the map. There's a creek that runs through this property. Is there a floodplain associated with this creek?

3:23:04Mm.

3:23:04Yes, there is.

3:23:06And how much of the property is encumbered by the floodplain associated with Dead Creek?

3:23:18I'll give you a sneak peek at the zoning plan.

3:23:30So how are we getting across there?

3:23:32Uh so this is flood zone A E, I believe. I'm I don't know if it's in the floodplain, but it is a flood zone. And as one of the uh residents was saying, there are certainly culverts under Hadlock Road. We will be uh modifying Hadlock to bring it to county standards and improving that uh for all of the neighbors when we uh create when we do this project.

3:24:00So you'll be so you'll be using Hadlock for your entrance, or entrance off a Hadlock, not entrance off old Costco.

3:24:06Yes. You know, also I recall and I'm not sure but s part of this road and I don't know if it's this specific road, but there are some private roads in this community also. I remember that from when a gentleman wanted the same gentleman that wanted the baseball Uh camp or uh learning center. A number of residents were opposed to him and several indicated that the roads in the and there were Our private road, so

3:24:36I believe Hadlock is a private road. There's a access easement on our property as well as the property to the south. I believe that would was done for the future expansion of this road to bring it up to county standards.

3:24:52I'm just throwing that out to you for your information which you probably know already.

3:24:57Right, so we have a thirty-five foot access easement on our property. There's also one on the property just to the south of us.

3:25:15Okay. Okay. Anything else?

3:25:23If not, uh anybody want to make a motion?

3:25:27Uh I if I made a motion it would be to deny, obviously.

3:25:32P

3:25:34I can do that.

3:25:35We We we just need a motion. We'll see if we get a section.

3:25:42To be fair to everybody because In the way I look at this as being spot zone at one time. And uh Anyway, I'm gonna make the motion to deny, but it wasn't there.

3:25:57Do we need to give reasons, Elizabeth?

3:26:01Uh yeah.

3:26:04Policy.

3:26:07Do we need to give you a map? You have your existing policies in the comp plan regarding the rural area and it's still in the rural. You could rely upon those. So you have a whole policy series which I have up right here if you want.

3:26:22Pete, do you want to uh to uh to accompany your motion for denial? We need to reference certain policies and it's not consistent with these certain policies. Here are the these are the rural

3:26:34There's a few of them you can scroll through there. This is actually a part of the rural area called the Rural Neighborhood Protection Area.

3:26:43We'll give them a couple of examples. Okay.

3:26:47Yeah.

3:26:51I see this I see this. Past the laptop flooding and the hot potato one.

3:26:59Yeah.

3:27:02Um policy two point three point two would apply.

3:27:07And that is

3:27:08That says establishment of Rural Neighborhood Protection Areas. Pasco County shall recognize the rural neighborhood protection areas as defined in Map 2-13 rural areas as areas that include existing rural neighborhoods that deserve and require special protection for the intrusion of urban uses, densities, and intensities, which shall be minimized through the use of the standards and options for stepping down development and densities and transitioning of land uses. e.g. gradual reduction of intensities and uses, as well as additional buffer and setback standards in order to minimize visual and noise impacts on

3:27:38adjacent rural residential developments. Does that encompass what you're thinking of?

3:27:48I'll second it for purposes of discussion.

3:27:51All right, so motion and a second. Um

3:27:58Open for discussion. Yeah, I guess one by one. I

3:28:01you

3:28:01want to start, John?

3:28:02Yeah, I wanted to start with discussion. I'm I'm having a hard time deciding this case. Yeah, that

3:28:11Clearly have a conflict in the comp plan. It probably should have been cleaned up in twenty ten. when the urban service area expansion area, whatever we're calling it, was overlaid over a rural protection area. I'm not sure. whether that was a right decision or a wrong decision, I see what The entitlements, the controversial entitlements we've approved east of I-75. at

3:28:42this location. So it makes sense to me that we might see development along the west side of the interstate given all of the development on the east side of the interstate. That being said, I give told by the applicant Well it's gonna be a four lane road. ten or more years from now. Maybe. It's no money for it.

3:29:09And there's still people there that still live a rural lifestyle.

3:29:17And yes, we've got some intrusion into that lifestyle by Subdivision, single family, detached homes. But we haven't got attached product yet. So that's the conundrum I'm trying to figure out. And I just... I think I've heard Mr. Gray say this a couple of times. the area's gotta be ripe for something and I just don't feel like it's It's ripe. for the attached town home. product if that's what the propos the red six.

3:29:48If this were gonna come in at detached, I could see if they were gonna come in with ER zoning. or are two zoning, you know, half acre lots or something out here that's a little more dense than what's out there, or even some of the stuff that might require some utility services, but not not down to attached product. I just this doesn't seem to fit with the character of the area. It may be in the future character, but I just don't feel like it is for today's character. And I'd

3:30:18so I'm probably with Peter, I'd be a no a or a yay to deny.

3:30:24Yay for the mill. All right.

3:30:28I

3:30:28was

3:30:28just gonna say I uh wholeheartedly agree with you, John. That's where I'm struggling too, so I'm I'm probably in that same vein.

3:30:38I'll d I'll do that. I mean i I think this is before it's time out here. I think that there's

3:30:45clear issues with you know with with the uh comp plan that that are out there but I think that you know protections of the folks that live a rural lifestyle out there mean something right now. I think that th this is this is ahead of it this particular development's ahead of its time. So I I wholeheartedly agree with what John said.

3:31:05Yeah, I th I think uh like I said before, I think from a planning perspective the urban corridor makes sense. Um and obviously you you want your densities closer to your your major thoroughfares because that's gonna put less traffic on the local roads uh trying to get to the seventy fives of you know, the ar arterial stuff like seventy five. So I think that makes sense from a planning perspective. Um And I was really kind of wavering fifty fifty on it because, you know, this this development probably will make sense

3:31:36um at some point. This density will make sense at some point. But um, you know, I think you you pushed me over the edge, John, with that last statement talking about, you know, is it ready yet? And I I I think I tend to agree that it's probably not quite ready yet. Or

3:31:54Okay. I

3:31:56would I would definitely agree that there's gonna be more concentration in this area going forward and I think the urban concentration area makes sense for for this area, but i again it's just it's you know, it's ahead of its time right now.

3:32:09Okay. And and just the springboard 'cause I know you're you're you're handling uh quail hollow development too, so that's down the road. And if it were not further the Old Pasco Road and there's one place in it that's two lanes two lanes and it is very crooked. It's right by the R V uh facility that's there and it it

3:32:36It's just an area that I I see as being uh rural. And eventually.

3:32:44Down the road that area will be developed, the same thing with Bell Hollow, I'm sure. Uh I I I believe that's still in the pipeline. I don't know if it is or not, but it's it's primarily that road in my view. So that's why I'll call for the motion to be voted on now.

3:33:00Okay. And I I mean I I just I agree with and I think when it was brought up about removing the r the middle or a piece out of the middle of the rural protection zone, I think there's a conflict there and I think once that conflict gets resolved it makes it a little more palatable but to To take it out of the middle and go all the way to res six I just think is a is a stretch at this point in

3:33:18time. Correct. Right. It should be down at one.

3:33:24So motion on the floor to deny seconded. Um any further discussion? All in favor of the denial? Aye. Opposed?

3:33:40Thank you.

3:33:45I think that's the last one.