Appeal (APPEAL-2025-00003) of the Planning, Development, and Economic Growth Department (PDE) Final Determination – Non-Conforming Use Determination of Twelve (12) Improved Camper / RV Sites – Naturist Religious Society, Inc.

26:52P eighty six, proof of publication, Tampa Bay Times, November 19, 2025, and by affidavit of certified mailings and site postings.

27:01P eighty six is PDE 260125. This is an appeal of the Planning, Development, and Economic Growth Department final determination regarding non-conforming use determination of 12 improved camper and RV sites by the Naturist Religious Society Incorporated. And Ms. Mrs. Toll will be presenting. uh this appeal.

27:30Good afternoon, Amy Toll with Planning, Development and Economic Growth. Uh uh.

27:38Before you is PDE 26-0125. It's the appeal of two of non of a non-conforming use determination, excuse me, of twelve improved camper RV sites. It is in the name of the Naturist Religious Society, Inc. So the request was an appeal of the final determination of a non-conforming use determination to allow for 12 improved campers or RV sites within the naturist community.

28:08The future land use is Res 3, residential 3 dwelling units per gross acre. The zoning is currently AR, Agricultural Residential District, and PDE. Recommends to deny the appeal and uphold the Planning Development and Economic Growth Department's final determination. Location of the site is within the area of Buckley Loop, approximately located 1300 feet north of Fairwinds Road and 700 feet east of Colony Road. I'll show you in a a visual of

28:38what that looks like. So subject sites located within the north market area.

28:44Here's a basic concept map of the overall area. The subject site is going to be depicted as a large piece of the Nature Society, Religious Society area, because it's a portion of this parcel ID. So here is the red area, i.e., the subject property, which is the parcel ID associated to the proposed request. However, I'll do a little zoom. The subject site is this area in question. Subject request.

29:16So here's just a vicinity map. So again, the approximate location of the 12 improved campers or RV sites is highlighted in red. Right here. Uh to the north is Palmwind M Peawy and to the east is Palmwind and Peawy with Fairwinds Road to the south and Colony Road to the west.

29:39The existing future land use map here is a res three.

29:44And the existing zoning is AR.

29:49And we'll go through that. Those are not applicable. And with that we recommend approval with conditions of the requested. Actually, this is the wrong recommendation too. We would recommend let me pull it up from my notes, I'm sorry.

30:05Mm-hmm. So the recommendation is to deny the appeal and uh support the planning and development final determination that was made on May thirtieth. And I have a couple visuals if you have any questions that are specific to the plat. They are uploaded into the agenda if you've had an opportunity to review those. Otherwise, I have pulled those out separately to give just a little extra context. So Gina, can you zoom in just a little bit? So this is

30:35the approved Florida Naturist Park Plat. On this plat, as you can see, it is already platted out. However, the area that's in question is right here. Gina, can you zoom into the area specifically, please? The original intent, or at least it appears that the original intent of this platted unrecorded subdivision, is that it was intended to be the park area for the Naturist Society. And so this is where the RVs are

31:05now situated. Additionally, in the review, this is set forth in the agenda memo as well. The historical areas do not support that the The uh twelve RV spaces have been in place since before nineteen seventy-five. I do have Mapper available to go through those areas if you are interested. I do want Q to go to

31:25Pasco Map. Okay.

31:31It actually

31:35Drop some pins on I mean yeah, look at look at Sure. So what's going on there at Buckley Loop in Sally Lane?

31:43That is the 12 RV spaces that are pr are claiming that they've been in place since 1975 and requested a non-conforming determination, which is not the case, at least from our historical research. So here's the aerial. This is the most recent aerial showing the 12 RV spaces, but we can go down to in the 90s, sure, try 1998.

32:10Uh it'll take a minute for it to load. You might have to zoom out just a moment.

32:17So zoom in until it doesn't yeah, so the space One more out. Sorry, I know it's the how it's uh d pixelated. And it's gonna be

32:30This area right

32:32here. Are th are these people on are they on septic? Um

32:38Great question. Yes. Thank you.

32:44And so this is the 1998 aerial. As you can tell, there's not 12 RV spaces, only a couple are there. Um let's go through the 2000s.

32:53Amy, if I could?

32:54Sure.

32:54So I saw all your pictures and I I see exactly why we don't think it is. When I look at the pictures, the uh Applicant submitted. Um I look at the nineteen seventy three, I don't see anything there.

33:09Correct.

33:10Go to seventy-seven, I see some things there.

33:12Okay.

33:12Did the approval have to be done or was it just have to be shown that they were there before seventy-five?

33:18Uh consistently before seventy-five.

33:21Okay.

33:26Is this a gated community?

33:30Uh I'm not I'm not a hundred percent sure. I would assume yes. Since it's a naturist society.

33:38I would recommend the board take the uh appellants case and then and then ask your questions of the app of the applicant and of of staff subsequent to public comment.

33:50Okay. So the applicant asked me for ten minutes extra, uh ten minutes time to speak, so I'm gonna grant that for them so they can put up uh their information together.

33:59Perfect. Thank you.

34:07Afternoon. Thank you, Chairman. Commissioner, thank you for having me today. My name's Jared Sharber. I'm an attorney from Dade City. I'm a fourth generation resident of Pasco County and I'm here today to speak on behalf of my clients Arthur Gulvin, Glenn Gulvin, Robert Gulvin, and their sister Joyce Steigerwald, the four children of a man named Ward T. Gulvin. Who was Ward T. Golden? Ward moved to Pasco County and bought property in the middle of the nineteen fifties and incorporated something called the Naturist

34:37Religious Society in 1958. It's right there on Sunbiz for anybody to see. He bought about 220 acres in three or four transactions in the 1950s, and he transferred those properties into the name of the corporation that still holds title today. That company, the Naturist Religious Society, dates back to nineteen fifty eight, It was purchased, developed, improved, and operated as a nudist park. That's what it is. That's what it was.

35:08I have, so uh yes, sir. I my apologies.

35:10Just for the record.

35:11Yes, sir. I encourage you to Google the definition of the word naturist. I did it, and it actually means a person who goes naked where possible. In designated or appropriated areas. I didn't know that until I took this matter on. So Mr. Gulbin, he cobbled together this two hundred some odd acres right down the street here in Hudson and set about making it usable. You can imagine what it looked like in the nineteen fifties. He did all the things that you would expect. He cleared trees, he built roads, he platted lots. You see all of the when the matter was zoomed out, you could see all

35:41of the little lots. He even tamed the fictitious name, Florida Naturist Park. For marketing purposes. This was a man that was ahead of his time in nineteen fifty eight. For marketing to Naturists, as it were, to come visit. Um, and it was clear what kind of property it was, and it was clear what kind of guests he was soliciting. Um So they sold off these small lots that were plotted, uh platted way before the zoning code. Um you can see the tiny little lots on the map

36:11there. Uh and when the county came out to inspect those lots back in nineteen ninety two, Fred Lowndes, the very first zoning administrator.

36:18I remember Fred.

36:19For for Pasco County. Made a personal visit. to the Florida Nature's Park. He acknowledged all of this predated the zoning code, gave it his blessing, and allowed the lots to be grandfathered into small lots of record. That's ancient history. Uh in your attachment, exhibit B materials I provided for today's hearing, the very last page, you'll see a letter uh to that effect. Um That essentially from Ms. uh what was it, Mrs. Zimpetty 23 years ago acknowledges those findings from 34

36:49years ago. So this is not something that the county is just now learning about. Um this business cruised along. Uh Ward had seasonal guests. Um there was a clubhouse and fishing and swimming, and he had the park area, which contrary to the county's uh I I guess. I I guess their assumption, because they certainly don't have anything to support their conclusions, um, that's where the campers set up. Imagine this business, imagine this venture without a camping area. There's no lodge, there's no hotel, there's nowhere for anybody to stay.

37:19It's it's almost counterintuitive it's it to suggest that there wasn't an area where folks were gonna set up their tents and their little primitive campers. And again, we're in the 1960s at this point. Um So This is important because the question before you today, as as was pointed out earlier, is whether this camping operation existed prior to December 1, 1975. That's that's the only question before uh this body today. Um we already know that the small lots predated December 1,

37:501975. That's why they were grandfathered in. Uh what my folks have told the county and are here to tell the county again today. is that this camping area has always been there. Why wouldn't it have been there? Um In the early days there was no infrastructure. Understand, it was just like any other startup business. I know some of you folks, and I know some of you folks are business owners. Did your business look The way it does today, the day that you open the door? Certainly not. I know mine. Did not. But you do what

38:20you can do with the resources that you have. The Naturist uh Florida Naturist Park has exactly the same story. You build the clubhouse, you clear some roads, you clear some trees, you put in a pitcher pump well so that when the guests arrive they have a place to get fresh water. And then you tell them the camping area is right over there. There were no paved spaces, there were no electrical hookups, there were no septic hookups, there was no water. But that was the camping area, always has been, from day one. Ward Gulvin. managed to install the

38:50original septic dump tank in the nineteen sixties, though we don't have an exact date on that, for the express purpose of emptying camper tanks. When you're done with your stay, you empty your tank into the septic and you pull it on down the road. It wasn't until nineteen seventy five when Mr Goldwyn could finally get power to the site. Um, and that's when he inst really started installing some of the infrastructure as we know it. As you can imagine, electricity, pretty big deal. Exhibit B about halfway through you'll see a letter from Witlacoochie River Electric,

39:20july nineteen seventy five, confirming Mr Golvin, establish power for this site. And as you can imagine, with the electricity comes a lot of opportunity, a lot of opportunity to improve things. So for over fifteen years at that point, the camping area was just that. It was just an area. That's all. No designated sites, no hookups. You park under the trees, you set up your rig, you dump your waste when you leave, literally operated that way for almost two decades. Then the improvements started to be made. Electrical hookups installed,

39:51proper septic system installed. Eventually there were designated sites for the campers as these hookups and infrastructure, as it became more refined and more modernized, just like any other business, incrementally, a little bit at a time. Then in the early nineties, Ward Gulvin had a stroke and he was unable to continue day to day operations at the park, so he looked to his children, three of which are are here today. Um Art Gulvin with me today. He's run a majority of those field operations in that park since that time, since

40:21the early nineties, and up until recently, he thought he had an ally in county government for very good reason. County government knows all about this park. They've issued permits and approvals and done inspections until very recently when County government decided unexpectedly that None of the fifty years of documented history of this park exists anymore. They've at least turned a blind eye to it or are trying to pretend. That it doesn't exist. Quite an extra extraordinary turn of events. That's why I put on the record that I'm a fourth

40:51generation resident of this county, because I find the entire thing to be Disappointing, for lack of a better way to put it. Shortly after Ward's stroke, the county visited with a bunch of warnings. You got junk and debris that accumulated. You need to get this stuff out of here. Stuff you guys have heard a million times. Um So it was time for Art and his brothers and sisters to go to work. It was now their responsibility. to foster this thing that their father had created. They appeared before a judge, they explained, look, we just need a little time, let us clean this up, we'll bring it into compliance, and they did.

41:22Never received a citation. They spent a bunch of their own money. They spent the corporation's money. and they got this business whipped into shape. They were never fined, and as I mentioned, Art himself met with Fred Lowndes on the site to talk about zoning and compliance. Focus at that time was on the small lots of record. But more importantly, when all this scrutiny was on them, accumulation of junk and debris, small lots that aren't conformity with the code, all of these different things that were drawing the attention of the county. Nobody ever mentioned the camping area because it was a known thing.

41:52It'd been there quite literally since the nineteen fifties. Not a single county official ever mentioned a word about it.

42:02The next order of business for Art and his siblings was following their father's passing. Now they've formally inherited this park. All right, we've got to improve and redevelop some of this aging infrastructure. Some of this stuff was forty years old at that point, by the time we're in the middle nineties. Um needed updated, needed replacing, again, just like any other business. So with the cooperation of this very government. Who they thought was on the same page as them, they went to work. New septic system, health department, right here in Pasco County, drove to the site, identified

42:32the existing system. Worked with them to calculate how much waste they were going to generate. Twelve sites, two people per site. Here's how big your system needs to be, here's how big your tank needs to be. Issued them a permit, performed an inspection, and approved it. All this money's been spent.

42:49The copy of the permit is in the packet, Exhibit B. It's right behind the letter from Witlicucci. It's the very next item. Next. They updated the electrical panel and the service connection to all twelve designated campsites. The next page in your packet from twenty thirteen is the building permit to change out that electrical infrastructure. Building permit that this county issued them. They came out and inspected it. They saw the hookups. Again. Nothing new, nothing unusual. These are things that were known by folks that had worked here for a while. They

43:19came out, they reviewed it, they reviewed the proposal, issued a permit, did an inspection, approved it all. 2014. Quarterly drinking water tests performed by the Health Department for this very county. Pasco County found the well to be unsatisfactory and instructed naturist religious society, hey, need a new well. Drill a new well. gave em a permit to do so. Third well started with a pitcher pump in the 1950s, new well in 1975 when we got power, and now a third well in 2014, again approved and inspected by this

43:49very county. Look at the right-of if you would, from the health department where it says on-site observations in packet B. Public consumption? Yes. How many people? Twenty-four. Service connections? Twelve. I'll leave it to your imagination to guess what those twelve service connections actually were.

44:12Again. Mr. Chairman, uh my understanding was I was getting ten additional minutes on top of my five. Is that right? Yes. Okay, perfect. Thank you. Like the septic, like the electric, this the the this new well, water well was proposed to the county, permitted by the county, inspected by the county, and approved by the county. Twenty fifteen. We don't have a written record for this one, but somebody visited Art Golden on the grounds and said, Hey, if you got more than ten RVs or campers on this site, you

44:42gotta get yourself uh uh a tax receipt. So he applied for it. He paid for it. Pays for it every single year. He's never missed a year. So by twenty fifteen, we're up to almost fifty years not only of existence and operation, but partnership with this county, That had been aware of the nature of religious society as a corporation, aware of its operations, permitted their improvements, inspected those improvements, scrutinized Ward Gulvin's pre-1975 development, scrutinized

45:12the improvements after Ward's death, all of this, five decades worth. But nobody ever tells you one day that you might wake up and have to prove To a person or a group of people who have no frame of reference, who've never set foot on the grounds, who have no eyewitnesses, that we're gonna have to prove to these people. All of this history. You don't keep records. You don't prepare for something like that. So we're doing the best that we can with what we have. We're here today to prove our existence, which again is troubling in and of itself. As to the presentation made by the

45:42county from the meeting agenda, page 110, they conclude the documents presented contain no such evidence, such as plans or construction of structures for which a building permit was issued prior to December 1, 1975, which is interesting because we're talking about camping sites. There are no structures. There was nothing constructed prior to 1975. But it doesn't mean that they weren't there.

46:06Then they go on to state that even if the sites were there, the aerial images prove that it was discontinued for more than 180 days. And all due respect, I don't think those images do anything to prove that suggestion. I've gone through all of the photographs in Exhibit C, and I don't want to spend too much time on that because time is precious today. But there are items in the camping area in every single one of those photographs. But again, this is seasonal. There might have been weeks. Maybe months where they didn't have a guest. This is rural Pasco County in the early 1960s and 70s. I don't

46:36think that it was no vacancy every day, all day throughout the year. That is not uh an indication that the use had in any way been abandoned. But For their own reasons, the PDE has taken all of the evidence they could find, or or or purported evidence, which again to me isn't much, and they've interpreted it in a manner that works most effectively against the citizens that they're supposed to be here to serve. And that's what I find so troubling. We're working to tear down the very people that they supported, inspected, and approved

47:07for over 50 years. These aren't some interlopers from out of town. This isn't some folks that just moved here from South Jersey last year, bought 20 acres of agricultural property, and they stuck 12 RV sites out there in the name of agritourism. These aren't people that are trying to get away with something. They're not trying to sidestep the rules. These people follow the rules and always have. been here four generations. Four family members who inherited this property from their father took an oath, swore under penalty of perjury that they grew up in and around this

47:37property and the surrounding two hundred and twenty acres, that these folks have been camping here since the nineteen sixties. Their affidavits are in exhibit B, sworn to, all four of them. Personal knowledge, grew up running around barefooted around this place, saw it with their own eyes. There's not a single county employee. That has seen this place with their own eyes, especially not in the nineteen sixties or the nineteen seventies. And you can say what you want. At the top of page seven. from a bunch of people who have no frame of reference and no independent knowledge of any kind The

48:07PDE did not give the affidavits much weight because all of the people who submitted an affidavit have a vested financial interest as officers or directors of the Naturist Religious Society, Inc. So make no mistake. That is a polite and professional way of saying But you Or a pack of liars. That's what they're saying. That's what they're saying. As politely and professionally as they can. We don't believe you. you, and you're here trying to perpetrate a fraud. Don't pass go.

48:41It's a profound position to take. And that's the point. to look these folks in the face and tell them, you are a liar, we do not believe you. We're going to scrape together some aerial photographs and tell you that your lived experience What you witnessed yourself Where you grew up didn't happen, didn't exist. What your father did in the nineteen fifties didn't happen, doesn't exist, is i is again, it's It's a little profound and it's a little saddening. I'm going to

49:11close because I'm up against time and I'm starting to get a little fired up, which I promised I wouldn't do. Um

49:20But the PDE is ignoring these folks history. Um You folks today have a chance to do the right thing. I'm asking to deny the relief that's being sought by the P D. E. Overturn the findings. Uh and find that the Naturist Religious Society, Incorporated, has been continuously operating this camping area since before the uh zoning code went into effect on December 1, 1975, because that's the truth. And that's the only conclusion that the evidence supports.

49:51So again, I I thank you for the time today. I Mr. Chairman, thank you for the additional time. Getting through 60 years worth of history is tough to jam into five minutes. So I I truly appreciate it. Thank you.

50:02Are we able to ask questions? Sure. Okay. Um question for you. When I'm looking at the maps and I actually asked for a mapped overlay With your maps to the the county maps, just to make sure I could see it. Uh to where Buckley Loop was and what was there. Yes, sir. Um the pictures you submitted It I think seventy-three. We're trying to look to find it right now. Seventy-three shows. Nothing there? But seventy-seven does and I'm trying to get to the exact pages so

50:35Did you you head from the Department of Uh Transportation?

50:40I'm assuming you're speaking of the photographs that were provided by PDE.

50:49I don't think so.

50:50Oh, that's county, okay. All right. All right. So you don't

50:52have any a air any aerial shots. No, starting in 73, and again I'm I'm looking at the shot from 73, the Buckley loop I mean there's there's clearly a camper right there. I mean I can see it plain as day and I think that You have to keep in mind this is rural Pasco County in nineteen seventy three. in the middle of two hundred some odd acres. You pull in with your wife You strip your clothes off to enjoy yourself on the weekend. You setting up in the shade or you setting up in the bald open? All those big live

51:23oaks down there to the right of the structure that you can plainly see. Um the testimony of the Gulvin family and what I'm presenting on their behalf is that the shade was the popular spot, which is not a stretch. I mean my goodness, who who's gonna set up out there in the bald open when you've got these big beautiful live oak trees producing all that shade.

51:42Okay. All right. So I'll I'll agree in that picture it does show that That there's a trailer there, seventy-seven as well and the other ones as well. Uh let me go with Lacucci. Yes sir. Um so the letter you have it states that the new service was back in seventy five. Uh does July fifteenth work for the date?

52:03I think as long as it's prior to December one, yes, sir. Yeah, I don't think it's required that we have electricity. this is just a piece of evidence indicating that the operation.

52:15Yes, sir.

52:16So

52:35December first, nineteen seventy-five, if there's a building permit, provided such construction is completed by December first, nineteen seventy-six. appears to be the magic language.

52:47So would you consider that With Lakucci Electric Service would qualify as

52:55It's one of the things that you can look at, yes. Okay. All right. And on the back of the letter, uh it does have addresses all from Buckley Loop. Does that seem to be appropriate to justify the position?

53:10So my concern is more with the abandonment for a hundred and eighty days than it is I mean There appears to be evidence that

53:25They didn't have twelve R Vs out there for more than a hundred and eighty days in on multiple Photographs.

53:34Okay.

53:35I I want to make sure I understand the standard here. Is the suggestion that There had to be 12 at all times. You couldn't undergo a seasonal change or a period of time where maybe you had no guests. An upstart business in the 1970s in rural Pasco County can't exist for a period of time with no customers and no guests without it being an abandoned entity. The corporation has been continuously.

53:59You are trying to get rights on a nonconforming basis for 12 RV units. Yeah.

54:07Sure. I uh and uh what I would posit is that there are probably periods of time where there were well in excess of 12 units on that property. And that would be illegal. Understood. This all predates the code. And that's that's the point. That's the overarching point here is that all of this predates any of these rules. All of this was done, all of this was known to the county. This is not something that they drove up on and discovered in 2023. What about the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of dollars that we've spent

54:37in reliance on county approved permits and inspections?

54:41Are you in for a vested rights determination?

54:46Sir?

54:47You know why I'm here, sir.

54:50Well,

54:52Chair.

54:53You got the wrong you got the wrong venue to be arguing vested rights.

54:56Commissioner Weightman. All right. Enough of the legal talk here. So this this place has been around. For a long time. A very long time. We we looked at it when we would discuss the Palm Winds project. We knew it was there. Something obviously happened that triggered the county to take a look at this. Little bubble. in the once middle of nowhere, there's a few houses around it now. Quite frankly, yeah. I have no problem with with there being camper sites here. Um Yeah.

55:30How there there's gotta be a path. a path forward. Um talk with the County Administrator, travel park Special exception. I mean this this place has been around a long time. We continue to make decisions as progress happens this county it it squeezes out lifestyles that have been around this county and I've talked about this time and time again. Squeezes out lifestyles and the way things kind of were and and th they're they're allowed to live and let live until project progress comes in and interrupts. What's going on there? I

56:00think as long as it's cleaned up, there's not a pollution problem. Let it live. And so I don't know if staff there's a way there's a way forward that to to make this work. But you're you're punishing somebody and folks who've owned this property and operated a similar type of business since before m what do you say, Mr. Sharp, sixty years? Nineteen fifty eight, yes sir. I mean Seventy years. Yeah. This is this

56:31is to debate debate this is kind of It's a bit much. There's gotta be a way forward. We gotta be able to work with folks. This family's been around a long time. Um so I don't know if there's staff, Mr. Kabala, you wanna speak speak speak to this?

56:46Yeah, I can have David Engel come up, I mean and he can Talk about what that path forward could look like if they're willing to go down that path.

56:54Thank you, Mr. Sharpe. May we may pull you back up, but we'll

56:57have a actually. We do?

56:58Okay.

56:58Yeah, I do.

56:59Hang on.

56:59Um is there I I was looking and I couldn't find it anywhere. Is there any on the website showing that there's R V space available?

57:07You're talking about on the the Naturist Resorts website?

57:10Yeah, I what I've been led to is basically um

57:19Yeah,

57:19we don't have a web they don't have a website.

57:21Yeah, because it says it's permanently closed.

57:23Well, it's it's not permanently closed. It's it's they've they've never had a website. This is this is one of those things that again that's been around. It's it's it's known in and amongst the uh naturist crowd, as it were. And they get the guests that they get and they always have, and a website's not something that they've ever felt the need to. Yeah.

57:44Okay. 'Cause people a uh were asking questions and then the answers were you better contact the Sunshine Beach Club administration and they'd give the numbers.

57:53Yeah, I don't know what the Sunshine Beach Club is, ma'am. I'm sorry. Oh

57:56okay.

57:56Okay. Can I Also, Mr. Starkey, yes, okay. I'm on the Facebook and it says First Capital Realty Investments, Sunshine Beach Club, Naturist Park for sale. Acres with seventy seven lots and existing 120 acre clothing optional subdivision. Contact Dayton Johnson.

58:25Is that

58:30Okay, there m there there might be marketing efforts related to trying to sell the property. I uh those I'm not familiar with.

58:38It's got the addresses here. The northeast corner of Colony and Fairwinds Road.

58:44Sure, and it's it's it it sounds like their real estate broker is here, he is with us, and he might even be able to answer questions related to his efforts to market the property for sale, but I I can't speak to those.

58:56Um is this a so this is an R V um this is a mobile home community or an R V travel park?

59:05Well it's it's it's neither. Um It's it it started as a a resort and again Back in the nineteen fifties when Mr. Gulvin platted this thing, if you look at the almost the perimeter around the area in question, you'll see teeny tiny little lots that they sold off to folks that wanted ownership, a place that they could come stay seasonally, things of that nature. He had a clubhouse, he had some amenities, he had things of that nature. It was never it was never really operated as an R V park or a mobile home park. Again, it started with very humble

59:35beginnings. It started is just this is the camping area. And then as they got additional infrastructure, they improved that camping area slowly, incrementally over time. And now as it's constituted Since the early nineties, I think you've got kind of the what we would call the finished product that's with the paved sites and the hookups and everything that comes along with it. But it again, it's been it's been in consistent operation from the beginning. It's just taken on different you know, uh different facets in terms of of of

1:00:06improvement in infrastructure.

1:00:07So my my question to you is because if it's a travel trailer

1:00:13Mm.

1:00:13It can't and you know, may I dunno. Tell me, correct me. It can't be there for more than six months. In this county.

1:00:27It's

1:00:27all about how we pay for government services and there's a difference between a mobile home and a travel trailer. Yes

1:00:34ma'am, certainly. And and and

1:00:36I we use the word what I'm seeing here from the Pictures I'm looking at. So Uh it's like a free for all in there.

1:00:45Okay. One of the things, as we just mentioned, you may not see things in there for six months while it's under and eighty days. I mean it's It it's understandable if they pick the best six months that other people are gonna come to the other six months.

1:01:00So as far as having

1:01:01this continuous would be a difficult

1:01:03time. Well, and it looks like we're kind of straddling the line between You don't have it there long enough and then on the other side of the bench it's there for too long. So I uh where where do I find that that middle ground?

1:01:13Commissioner Weightman. Yeah. So I mean you look at the right-of-way. Our our our our district is known for some more commercialized famous nude resorts, internationally famous, known for and there's R V sites there that are I mean, some of those R V sites they're they're selling for a lot of money in Caliente and they're nice and they're paved and they're full hook up and people come in, they're class A's and they stay for a period of time and then they They leave or they go wherever. So Um you know, it's just a a different

1:01:44experience at caliente than This one. So there's similarities between the two. One's more resort, this is More nature. Um So when you look at you know, people not being there full time It's the the same thing's going on a little further down the road, all forty one.

1:02:04Then again, they can't stay there more than I've done.

1:02:07But I but I have travel R V parks where they've moved in permanently.

1:02:13But we're standing right here.

1:02:14And

1:02:16We need to focus on what we got here though.

1:02:20All right. Um any other questions for the applicant? I see David Engel. David, you want to come forward? Thank you, Mr. Chairman

1:02:27Mariano.

1:02:31Good afternoon, David Engel, Planning and Economic Development Director. There is a path forward in our land development code. That would be through via a special exception. I would point out that the applicant did apply for a special exception for this property for travel trailers in I believe 2024, but withdrew the application. But we could We could resurrect that application and we'd be glad to have an exploratory meeting with the applicant and give them the path forward and would help them out. Oh 2004, excuse me, was

1:03:03me ask a question. If the board decides that this was Twelve lots for mobiles. They've had it for RVs. They've had it for all this time. Do they need to go through that process?

1:03:20No, if you find them to be a nonconforming use, they would be limited to the number of units that you say that they're that were not nonconforming. Um if they wanted more than that, then they would have to go through the special exception process.

1:03:36Okay. All right. Any other questions? All right, so this is a public hearing? Is there anyone else here from the public that would like to speak?

1:03:44I do I do have one quick question. Oh

1:03:45go ahead.

1:03:47Yeah um so do you already have all the um all the infrastructure there like to for the setup for the sewer and everything?

1:03:55Oh yes ma'am. And like I I uh it it's it's actually turned over. I mean we had

1:04:00Do you have a current picture of what it looks like now?

1:04:02I don't know ma'am. Not on me, but I did want to speak to the 2004 application because there's an important point that needs to be made there. That was not an application that was made by the owners. That was an application that was made by a prospective purchaser. that used the owner's name with their permission because they wanted to explore increasing the density. As you guys see all the time. They submitted some applications, did some due diligence, had some meetings to see if they could increase density because it would have been an attractive piece of property for them to purchase. After

1:04:32their meetings kind of fizzled, they determined that it wasn't suitable for their needs, they withdrew the application. That that had nothing to do with the Gulvin family or the Naturist Resort, even though their name is in fact attached to it. That was how that was presented.

1:04:49Right.

1:04:52Thank you. Uh anyone anyone here from the public would like to address this item?

1:04:58Okay. Does staff want to make any other comments?

1:05:03Um I'd like to hear from Amy again.

1:05:07She says she's good.

1:05:08Well do you have a question?

1:05:10I just wondered. Yeah, just refresh me on on why staff is recommending denial.

1:05:19Thank you, Amy Toll, Planning, Development, and Economic Growth. So the only thing that we would like to add is the fact that the reason why we're here is that there was a stipulated judgment agreement that required them to seek a non-conforming use determination. Based on the findings that they provided to us, we could not fact check that they've that the 12 RV spaces have been in place since. nine before nineteen seventy five.

1:05:45Subjective.

1:05:48Sure. Commissioner Weightman.

1:05:52Uh it was a code violation. Uh I'm not sure. I'll I can pull up the code by lesion if you want to give me a minute. It's up to you.

1:06:01I mean, You have to work. And this place has been around for a long time.

1:06:06Mm-hmm. So

1:06:06I'd be curious if it if it was county initiated.

1:06:11I don't have an answer to that to that right now, but I can take a look at the violation.

1:06:16Is Is this area is this a gated community? No. no, so anyone can drive through

1:06:23the nudist?

1:06:34Site visit,

1:06:35Commissioner Starkey? No.

1:06:39I'm busy.

1:06:41Yeah, and with the plat that was provided to us, this area is dedicated as a park, which is also part of the parcel that is for all of the open space on the right-of-way. So based on that finding a little bit of a few years.

1:06:53Well there is no dedication 'cause it's an unrecorded plat and there is no dedication on the plat. So it just says park.

1:07:01And

1:07:01the parcel I do support the roads.

1:07:10park as you normally would see. I've precisely thank you.

1:07:18Okay. All right, so it's to the board and uh did I ask for comment online? Any public comment? No comments online. Okay. All right, so now it's back to the board for the further discussion.

1:07:27Well, Chairman M I'd be open to help helping this property find a path forward. I have no problem with

1:07:36B twelve units and As long as ever you know, it's a clean place and uh you know, it's not polluting the environment, let people camp. And uh Can't tell they want to. Okay.

1:07:53Hmm.

1:07:56I'll help. I'll make a second. And the reason for it is it's been here for all this time. They had the electrical hookups. Um it's clearly to me shown that Twelve lots should be there. Um And have been there for all this time. The seasonal flows that'll happen just with people in the summertime they're not gonna want to be down and they're gonna be somewhere up north.

1:08:16I'd really like to see a picture of it today. Like is there any way to pull that up?

1:08:30I went to the

1:08:31Yeah, you we we we take away the ability we thank you Chair, sorry. Take the ab the ability away to have camping space. You know what's gonna happen.

1:08:41Come in, rezoning and then you take away a little bit of nature and outdoor space that that's in this area. There's a lot of development to the north. Places like this have become really, you know a unique piece of our history if they're able to be saved before land comes in rezoned and densities increased. So, you know, in a way I view this as almost like preserving some level of of park space um and green space in our county. So there's a double edge on this.

1:09:11And I think when you look at it's a People bought this land many, many years ago. They've run it how they wanted to run it. This is still America? Should be able to keep doing it. As long as they're going to meet to the terms of the 12 units uh at this point, if they want to change it, they can back and try to change it. That'll be their call. But as of right now, I think they're entitled to the twelve units just because of the history that shows they had the electoral setup. Um Areas show that there was a a camp released there before uh or on nineteen seventy three by the

1:09:42D O T map that This has has been functioning.

1:09:46So is this what it currently looks like?

1:09:50Yes, ma'am, to my knowledge that's an accurate depiction of what's out there. I mean, I don't know, like this morning, but

1:09:56Okay, so so you don't have the paved sites or the the Do you have the the sewer and the the water hookups and everything?

1:10:04Oh yes, ma'am. Yes, ma'am.

1:10:05Okay, so each each site is like a designated

1:10:08Correct. And that was kind of the evolution of it over time. At first it was just an area.

1:10:11Okay.

1:10:12You came in, you got directed to the area over by Buckley Loop, set up over there anywhere because there there was no infrastructure. But now it's more traditional if you've been to a campground and you gotta position your rig just right so that you can get power. Water sewer all hooked up, that's the nature of it now. And again, that that kind of happened over time.

1:10:30Okay. And that's that's kind of what I wanted to know. Like, is it Is it truly like a designated camping area where you just back in? Yes,

1:10:37ma'am. It's

1:10:38not

1:10:38a free-for-all anymore. No, ma'am.

1:10:39Commissioner Oakley. So it's uh They have actual sites, camping sites with the water and the and the Power source for each site? Yes sir. Are they designated a certain size? A certain size? For each site. If there's twelve sites there, how big are they or are they are they defined?

1:11:00I can't answer to that, uh Mr. Oakley, I don't know.

1:11:04It looks like they're pretty big.

1:11:06I mean you've got a lot of open space. No way to tell from that map.

1:11:14spot for camping where you back it in and have all the hookups.

1:11:18Chair. I mean it looks like Chair. I mean it looks like you even have some dry camping going on too. I I don't know, it looks like a fun place whether you're clothed or not. Mr Mr

1:11:27Goldman tells me that it's no use.

1:11:30Oh you know you got YOLO YOLO.

1:11:35Mr.

1:11:35Goldman tells me that they're they're they they range

1:11:37from thirty feet to

1:11:38fifty

1:11:39feet in in length. I'm fine with it.

1:11:42No. Okay. All right, so there is a motion and a second.

1:11:47Yeah. Motion was Commissioner Weightman. Commissioner Mariano did the second.

1:11:52No, it was for appro it was for approval of a nonconforming use for twelve units on the area shown in the application.

1:12:04Close enough. All right, any further discussion? All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Nay. Nay. Okay. Motion passes three to two.

1:12:16It's all my business today, folks. Thank

1:12:17you.

1:12:18Thank you.

1:12:24It's been an interesting day, Mr. Chair. Indeed. It's been a great first meeting for you as Chair so far.

1:12:32They have the bus for me. It brings out a lot of excitement. Like that.