P51 Live Local Act opt-out resolution
What the county recorded
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The source document
The county’s agenda for Board of County Commissioners, May 21, 2024
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What was said
Machine transcription of 23m of recording, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 49% of 117 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.
Aye. Motion pass 5-0. Now we move on to public Uh hearings uh would County Attorney wish to uh go through the procedures.
I don't think this requires procedure shape. You're gonna climb up you don't have any reason. But you need proof of publication though.
Oh then okay, well I was you picking up this I'm picking up my normal spill there. So
All right, so you have P fifty one?
P fifty one.
It was advertised in the Tampa Bay Times May eighth, twenty twenty four.
Thank you Mr Chairman Mariano Commissioner Yeager. Thank you. I'm David Goldstein, Chief Assistant County Attorney. This has been a long time coming, this resolution. Um So a lot of work getting to this point, a lot of people to thank. I would like to thank the Pasco County Legislative Delegation, Commissioner Simpson, Senate President's Office, Governor DeSantis for signing the bill. Um Ralph and Sean. Uh County Administrator Mike Carbala, who was very instrumental towards the end in helping us get this across the finish line. But most importantly, all
of you. Um you know, there was countless you were all on the front lines with trips to Hallah Tallahassee, phone calls, texts, letters, press briefings, maybe a few prayers. Um there was a lot of work for you all. I mean, I get calls probably once a week. Yeah. From other jurisdictions thanking Pasco County for what we did with this legislation. So you all were the tip of the spear. A lot of local governments are very thankful for what you did. And so I wanted to thank you Um we
couldn't have got w I'm a hundred percent positive we could not have gotten this legislation done without your Tireless effort, so thank you. If I could give you a round of applause I would but Um So I have a full presentation where I get into the weeds. I don't know if you want me to do that or
I think it's good to hear it. Okay. So Just to gonna give you history where how we got here. So If you recall, and you're gonna hear this at our next workshop, this is actually a good lead into the affordable housing workshop. Um one of our biggest issues with the Lib Local Act was just it wasn't providing affordable housing that was affordable to our citizens. It basically gives a tax exemption to the eighty to one e 80 to 120% AMI, and we're gonna hear later what that means. But it's basically rents that are above two thousand dollars a month. These are not rents that
our school teachers, our employees, our firefighters, our police officers can even afford. So it didn't make sense to us to be giving this very large tax exemption to these apartment complexes that were basically charging market rate rents. was also a big financial impact to us. We calculated just the first two apartment complexes to apply would be thirty eight million dollar impact. If they get this exemption for the next thirty five years. Um so as I mentioned, we're subsidizing basically market rate rents. These
the first two that applied. They're they're applying for a tax exemption, they're not even reducing their rents at all. These are the same rents that they were charging. before they sought the tax exemption is what they're charging now. We raised a number of issues with this. We raised some constitutional issues. Our position was this is not a charitable purpose to charge market rate rents. The Constitution requires that you have a charitable purpose to give tax exemptions. And our position is this is not a charitable purpose. So we, as you all know, we
went very public with these concerns. Some of you were quoted in the paper. Many
papers.
Including
South Dakota's paper.
Yeah, I mean this this made statewide national news um when we did this. And so we did and we threatened litigation. So finally at the end of the twenty twenty four session, somebody actually listened to us. Um I'm not sure who to thank for that. Oh probably multiple people. Um but we finally got some traction at the end of the session. Um and this we worked with the Senate President's Office. They did include this opt-out provision, which we're gonna talk about today, in the House Bill 7073. And now to
be clear it only applies into the eighty to one twenty percent tax exemption that you can opt out of. It does not apply to the below eighty one exemption, but we don't really have a lot of people that are seeking it below eighty. because that's actually really affordable housing when you get below eighty. Um The other key thing is it does not currently address the Land use zoning preemption. I know we still have a lot of concerns with that. Um that's kind of where a lot of our concerns started. But we're hoping this is a springboard to next session where we can get some relief on the land use and zoning issues as well. Just
to go into the details, it basically says that you can opt out of that 80 to 120 tax exemption if the latest Schinberg report shows that you have a surplus of rental housing in the eighty to one twenty range. Um you have to do this annually. It has to be advertised and so every year I'll be coming up here As long as we qualify I'll be coming up here asking you to opt out again. Um It does not apply importantly to the 2020, it only starts for 2025 and beyond. So the first two that applied for 2024. Not much we can do about those.
Um those are still we're still waiting on the property appraiser to make a decision on those two. We don't have word yet. He did say it would be closer to June first before he makes that decision. Um it does have to be approved by two-thirds vote, so at least it need at least four votes. Um One key clarification is that it only applies to Pasco County taxes. So it does not necessarily, this resolution we're adopting today does not necessarily allow the school board to opt out, mosquito control the cities. So what I'd done is
I sent an email to all of them. I sent it to the school board, I sent it to the cities, I sent it to all of them saying, We're adopting this resolution today. I encourage you to do the same thing. And I think they will. I I already spoke to the Mosquito Controls Council. I know they're going to I know Betsy Keun has told me they intend to do it for the school board. The school board's the big one 'cause they have the biggest taxes besides us. Um There are some downsides with the Schoenberg report and Mike is very familiar with these. He's He
learned a lot about affordable housing there at the end. Um so And unfortunately it relies on random sampling from the American Community Survey, which is the update to the census. And so it has a margin of error associated with it. In addition, it's always two years behind. And so the problem with that is that if we have a recent apartment complex that we've built and we have a lot of recent apartment complexes Um it's not counting those in the surplus inventory. And so we did raise that as a concern. It's hoping something that we
hope to get to next session to kind of refine whether you have a surplus or not because The problem with Simberg is it may show that we have a deficit when in reality we have a surplus on the ground. Um it also doesn't deal with fee-simple housing that's in the eighty to one twenty range. It only deals with rental. Um and it doesn't include county specific data, which is an issue because let's just say that Pasco had a surplus. But Hillsboro had a deficit, or Penells had a deficit. Our their deficit may outweigh our surplus and the Tampa Bay MSA may show
a deficit even if we have a surplus. So there's there's issues, we feel like this is something we need to address in future sessions, but currently we have the ability to opt out because the Tampa Bay MSA is showing a surplus. And I'll just give you you probably can't read this, but
no, we can see it here.
Okay, you can see it. So Tampa Bay MSA I think is showing a surplus of let me get the exact number here.
3,994 units in the eighty to one it's they says zero to one twenty, but that's really eighty to one twenty. So we currently have a surplus. But this is actually a very interesting chart. If you look at the page before it
So are you gonna look at the page Sonia before?
I don't know what I'm doing here. I wanna get to the page before. So
And you look at that zero to one twenty column. You'll see there's a lot of numbers there. But the important thing is that if you look at it, there's really only two counties in the state of Florida or two MSAs That have a real deficit in this in the eighty to one twenty range.
Is it Monroe?
Okay. So
author of this film lived.
So Miami Dade and Broward. Okay. So Monroe, my name my Medina Broward are the only ones that have like a really big deficit in the eighty to one twenty range. So my opinion this tax exemption was mostly done for Miami Dade and Broward counties, and the rest of the state basically got caught up in it.
Fascinating.
And so I think until they come up with And and and I feel bad for certain counties. Like look at Volusia County, okay. Volusia County has a 357 unit deficit. Well that's basically one apartment complex. They can make that up in a year. But they're not able to opt out because they have this very small deficit that they're showing in that range. So my position would be The legislature should just say this tax exemption only applies in Miami Dade, Monroe, and Broward County and just leave the rest of the state
out of it. That's my my my position. But uh but yes, Commissioner Weightman. Chairman
Mariano. Um Well we met with apartment lobby, local apartment lobby. I forgot their their that the guy's names a couple months ago. Pasco County does not have a shortage. There's a healthy supply of apartments in Basco County and they made it to us in our office. So I just think that's important to have on the record.
Oh I think we absolutely can demonstrate that we I mean, even the Tampa Bay MSA is showing a surplus currently My point is when you take into account some of these other factors like our recent construction, some of the fee simple townhomes that have been sold, I think we can show that we have a surplus on the eighty to one twenty range and you're gonna hear some people smarter than me talk about affordable housing at the workshop that will confirm that same thing. that our biggest need is in the below eighty range. We don't really have a serious need in the eighty to one twenty range at all. And
this chart basically shows there's only really two or three counties in the state that do. Um even the ones that have a small deficit, it's extremely small. And so I think in my opinion this legislation needs to be nearer to s basically southeast Florida and just be done with it. Leave the rest of the counties out of it.
Are we
on the second
page?
St. P Clearwater. And so if you look at so
have this hard copy, David?
Um I don't know if we have a hard copy, but I is there a way to blow this up so they can see it?
I wonder why we didn't get this. I don't have it.
Yeah, it's on our screen right.
All right. So if you look at the call there's a one that says Tampa Saint Petersburg Clearwater, that's us. So we're in the same MSA as Hernando, Hillsborough, Pasco and Penillas. You seeing that? Commissioner Yeah. Yeah.
Okay.
Okay. So if you look over from that on that row, what it's showing you is what our deficit is at every income range. So currently we have a deficit in zero to thirty, deficit zero to forty, deficit in zero to fifty, deficit zero to sixty, and deficit zero to eighty. So we clearly have an affordable housing need when you talk about the below eighty percent of AMI range. But when you get above that range in the eighty to one twenty, we're showing a surplus. And that's basically Commissioner Weightman's
point is we never should have there never should have been a tax exemption for Tampa Bay MSA in that range because there was never a need.
Right.
Uh-huh. And that was basically our point. It just took us many, many many, many months and many, many phone calls and texts and prayers and whatever else we did to get that change. Um but my hope is that next session We can use the same opt-out provision on the land use side. Because to me it doesn't make sense that if you don't have a need in the eighty two to one twenty range Why should you be giving up your commercial and industrial property for housing in the eighty to one twenty range if you don't have that need? I just and I
think in my opinion the Senate President's office was starting to agree with us on that. But we were so late in the legislative session that all they could do was fix the tax bill. They couldn't fix the land use side. And so I think next session, as long as we continue to make this a priority and you all continue to help fight this issue, I think we can get some relief on the land use side. At least that's my hope.
Yeah. Um Jack is like Just super i influential as far as getting something changed. I don't think the State Legislature is going to want to opt out on three different counties, even if that's what the case bees is, but I think if we focus on the surplus, and I think we need to give ourselves a cushion of surplus, especially when you show deficits of the other four categories before it. That we're going to do. so low, that's where the thing should be pushing. So I I I think no
Mike and I talked about there should be like a five percent margin of error, you know the the and I give you an example of Volusia County. Okay, if you look they're on the prior page, Flagler and Volusha. So that's basically the Tona Beach area. They're showing a deficit of three hundred and fifty seven units. In my opinion, that's n it's so insignificant. They should still be able to opt out, but the way the legislation is worded currently, they can't. But that's like one apartment complex.
So may so maybe once you uh have the opt out provision, it's gonna be at least two years before it can be changed back to pace based on the data. But again, getting those numbers up, maybe to even take Volusha's numbers and maybe down ten percent, maybe that's the percentage you got you go you go after as far as surplus goes. And try to work that. And I think if you go to all the other all these other areas and get them on board ahead of time so they can all lined up. 'Cause we weren't really late. I mean we were Commissioner Weightman was bringing up these items a year a year ago. Yeah
to
make sure we had the items. Right.
Okay.
But as far as like w we were there though early, we sent that letter out in November. So we were early on it. They just didn't react to it. And then when they did we did go up there we got this. So I think it's just a matter of getting all these others lined up with us to go push it, to go if you have the numbers that are surplus Even to go ten, twenty percent or whatever the number is, maybe a thousand, ten thousand, whatever the number is decided to be, and just get the greatest number of state uh
And because you'll see that there's a number of communities that like I said, like Belusha, Uh Call your county. Um Citrus County There's a number of them that have very, very small deficits. And so I think there needs to be some margin of error or some, you know, where we say, hey, if as long as you're not a huge deficit like Broward or Miami Dade, you should be able to opt out. And so and I'm and my position is not just on the tax side, but also on the land use side. Which
that's that's our hope for next session.
And I wanna say you did a phenomenal job with us. You can give us all the accolades. Your information, the way you laid it out, the way you presented, the way you disseminated the information to all the other counties was huge. You were a huge, huge factor in this and we gotta give you a round of applause.
Um work's not done, as we just talked about. Um we did reserve our right in the resolution to sue if we can't opt out in the future, because that's always a possibility. Um So but we're currently not recommending that we litigate it on the tax side because that's We kinda got most of the relief we needed through this bill. We still have the standing direction for you our office to litigate on the land use side. Um so far we haven't had anybody apply on the land use side that's gonna force that litigation. But that's still a standing directive which we recommend
remain in place at least until we can get that part of the law changed. Um Again, we recommend that you prioritize live local fixes next session. We still have work to do as you meant mentioned, Commissioner Mariano. So I think we're kind of halfway there. And we should you know be happy that we got halfway there. Um but next session, let's try to get this fully. Sorry.
Pleasure of the Lord. One question for David. So the two that are going to be
times of the essence.
Yeah, no, that's well this will this is like the critical one. We got the two that have applied to get the exemption, it goes before the property appraiser to make the decision, correct? Yes. So what you say and what you said and I agree with if it's not a charitable cause I shouldn't be able to apply. Does that still h hold quite
a bit of a problem? We have given that argument to the property appraiser. He's fully aware of that argument. I can't tell you definitively what he's going to do with that argument. But yes
Okay. So do you think we should be sending as a board a letter to him saying here's why we do think you should be denying those based upon these Instances.
Jeff, do you have thoughts on that issue? I I I mean I've sent him our arguments about why it's not a terrible purpose. I don't do you think it's helpful at all to have the board do that too?
I can guarantee he's fully aware of them because I have had multiple conversations with him and sent him our legal arguments. So but it's up to the board I guess.
It's I mean, he is a separate elected constitutional officer and he makes his own decisions. If the board wishes to weigh in, they can, but I don't know that that that It's gonna he's gonna make his decision based on What he thinks is the state of the law.
Okay. This is a um public hearing. Does anyone in the audience wish to speak to this item? I think
Commissioner
Weightman is. Okay, Mr. Weightman.
Yeah, I uh So I don't mind. supporting a letter or what we need to do considering One of these sites is an existing apartment complex at Wesley Chapel Boulevard and fifty six. that's been around for a number of years and was never intended to be. an affordable housing product. It was classified to be class A multifamily living. With amenities. in the heart of the District two in Wesley Chapel area, right next to
And all the action that's going going in. So I just felt the need to say that.
No. My turn.
All
right. Um, If if if these apartment complexes are successful and coming up our tax rules, is it only for the one year?
So it's an interesting question. Um they have to apply for this every year. We'll tell you that there's at least an argument based in the language that's w the wording of the existing language that because you're adopting this resolution Be before it's granted. If it's gr if it's granted. It does give us an argument that they don't get it. This is the last year they would get it.
The only year.
It gives us an argument. I can't tell you it's a definitive argument because I It's
new territory.
I've spoken to the property praise attorney. It's something he would evaluate next year is what he told me. So he didn't want to speculate on the answer, but at least this is why I've been kind of in a rush to get this adopted as soon as possible, because it helps us with the argument that this is the last year they would get it. Mr.
Mayor Honor. So I I think I'll I'm re-emphasize, I think it's important we do send a letter that we've consulted where our attorneys feel strongly that this does not apply. as a charitable agreement. And as far as the one in Wesley Chapel, the one in Trinity Uh has got a putting green on it. Certainly not affordable. So I think we need to send a letter stating why we don't think it's appropriate or for it based upon what our attorneys have told them and let them have that in front of them and let them decide. Because I think If you allow these two
to come in? What's gonna stop the others? Ms. President.
Well, hopefully the opt out. So I mean I will say the good news is that that the only ones that may get grandfathered is the two two that applied in twenty twenty four. The opt out basically stops any future ones as long as we continue to qualify for the opt out. So
So last question would be, if in fact the property appraiser grants it, can we still go sue and fight it?
I think that I would feel better fighting twenty twenty five and the reason I is for the reason I just mentioned is because I think that if we adopt this resolution before the property appraiser grants it, that we have an argument strong argument besides our constitutional arguments We have a strong argument that they're not even entitled to it under the statute. So if you're asking my opinion I'd want to litigate twenty twenty five, not twenty twenty four. Okay.
And one one quick question, do you recall the amount that will come off our tax rules if these two are successful?
Well if it's one year um
Their total taxes I think. that they paid last year was about a million seven. So it would be Seventy five percent of that. I'm not good at math. No, that's a total. Total. One was a million and one and the other one was about seven hundred thousand. So Seventy five percent of that number.
I'm not good at math.
It's definitely a seven figure number, Commissioner.
Yeah, but that's the downside of the these are not these tax exemptions, the reason they're hurt us so much is this is not the same as tax exemption for same elderly person who's making you know Very low wage. These are some of our biggest taxpayers in the county. Right,
and
the money's leaving the county.
Out
of state.
These are both out of state owners, both both of these apartment complexes.
Okay. Okay. So I would move to approve.
Well you can you take public comment.
This is a uh Public. Workshop, mating. And this item, is there anyone in the audience wish to speak to it?
Chairman Mariano.
There is no
one. Do you want to sign that? No, sir.
WebEx?
No, sir. Web to approve?
This could could be a roll call vote because it requires four votes. I just want to make sure it's done by roll call.
Okay. I got a motion and a second by roll call.
District two, Commissioner Weightman.
Aye.
District three, Commissioner Starkey. Aye. District four, Commissioner Yeager. Aye. District five, Commissioner Mariano. Aye. District one, Chairman Oakley.