Commissioner miscellaneous business and Live Local discussion

1:39:32Thank you, Chairman Mariano. Um

1:39:37Short for mine today, excited to hear what Commissioner Starkey has to say. Um We have some pictures up there. I don't know if they're coming. But anyway, leadership. I think some of us participate in leadership, Tampa Bay, and their Pasco County Day. Just grateful the leadership, Tampa Bay and it's always a a fun group with such a you know, assortment of backgrounds uh and people engaged and they're wanting to learn about Pasco and how they can do business here or will live here or what have you. Hey thank you to Pasco uh Porter Campus uh PHS C for hosting everybody for such a such a fun fun

1:40:07morning. I look forward to participating uh in that event for years to come. Uh next we had uh Auto Nation of Wesley Chapel. They're Evan Mercedes uh affiliate here in Wesley Chapel, but Autonation just cut the ribbon earlier this week after Um after the fire station pushed the

1:40:28Yeah. and uh excited to have them. They're at Tampa Premium Outlets. And uh so they're they're open for business and pretty much all their employees a couple dozen or more are they live in Pasco and they're excited not to have to commute south. and uh their manager lives lives in Pasco as well, so it's good to meet that group. And then the last item just for a policy consideration, uh piggybacking on um Commissioner Starkey's Arbor Day. in our comments. Uh Planning Board Member

1:40:58John Moody sent a note and uh just something for us to think about and it might be the direction we want to go in the future. And uh he said in his email, under our comprehensive plan, we currently give a density bonus to developers for preserving wetlands. which, you know, we can't normally develop those anyway. So his thought is for us the consenters rather than prohibiting the removal of a certain tree, what if we offer the density bonus for preserving certain trees, uh, rather than use it for wetlands,

1:41:29since wetlands can't be developed. And so I appreciated Planning Board Members uh Moody's email Um I thought it was of merit and to bring up for for discussion and maybe not full time today, but just kind of check the temperature of the board. Maybe we can bring Something back after we research research that subject matter.

1:41:50Is that it? Okay. Ms. Starkey?

1:41:53Okay. Um first uh so uh uh Jack and I went up for FAC. Um And uh our main focus while we were up there was of course uh live local. Do we do we have enough time to get in that discussion or are we gonna wait till the end of the day?

1:42:14Well I mean we've got probably about ten minutes I think and if if you think that that is affords enough time. I mean I think You know, two two.

1:42:26That's what I'm thinking. Yeah. Yeah,

1:42:27let's go ahead and get this done.

1:42:28Okay, so just the reason this picture's up is years ago I asked for us to put covers over these 'cause those look really bad. P they're permanent pumps on the side of the road. Right? You remember me asking for this? So nothing's happened and apparently the guy who's in charge of it doesn't work for us anymore. I'm not asking for anything elaborate, just some kind of cover. uh wooden house, whatever you want it to look like. So it that 'cause that is just very unattractive. So just let's find a way to shade these, cover these in a more attractive way.

1:42:58All right, so on Live Local. I have asked um for staff to talk to us about where we are. Um Jack and I went in and had Weshawn had a meeting with Senator Pasodomo. And um You know, we are very grateful that they've taken international uh industrial out. We did mention that none of our none of our 12 applicants were on introductional land. Um But frankly, what's more alarming

1:43:29to us is the loss of current currently built apartments and apartments soon to be built and maybe David could Um speak about this. It's it's a rolling five years. It's not five years from today past. It's a it it keeps going. And and how long does it keep going? That's a question I don't know. So um what was so interesting is we didn't find one other county or city who knew that there was a possibility that

1:43:59existing apartments And future apartments it can come off their tax rolls. So um We did we didn't get much much headway on that. As a matter of fact, w one of the questions I asked to Jen Jenny or Jennifer, who's the author with Senator Pas in Senator Pasadomo staff. I said, how many can one county expect to absorb off their tax rolls? Is it possible to cap it? And she said no that would be

1:44:29illegal to cap How many can come off our tax rules? And you know what we tried to stress was it it it it this is not a one size fits all solution. What may what may be Um a hundred and twenty AM AMI in in Miami Dade or another county may be uh workforce housing. And I think we need to say workforce housing, not affordable housing, someone said. But um but it isn't in our county. And so

1:44:59we are very much um

1:45:06I wonder if they could put up on the screen while we're talking the list that that our Representative Yeager was able to get from FHFC, if our staff hasn't seen it and all of you. of the one hundred and twenty apartments that are currently Um through the FHFC uh uh restrictions. Well they had to apply by December thirty first. There were there were some that were denied, but there were about a hundred that qualified to be existing apartments to come off. And

1:45:36there were I think nineteen or twenty that are refurbished apartments that will be coming off the tax rolls in various counties and cities around the state. Um City of Gainesville alone I believe I believe have eight And I would think that with the the incomes of those students in Gainesville that every single one of theirs could come off. And same for any college town. So um David or I don't know which one of you wants to speak first, but we

1:46:06have

1:46:07I'm starting by answering your question. Can you hear me? Yes. Um, it's thirty-five years. It's not you asked how long can you know. It's research rolling five years, but the tax exemption The tax can you hear me now? The tax exemption is in place for up to thirty five years. It goes through twenty fifty nine. So in theory, these apartment complexes, if they continue to qualify. They could be uh off our tax rolls for the next thirty five years and David Ingall Has done a financial analysis just for the first two apartment complexes.

1:46:38If you look at over thirty five years, I think it's about a thirty eight million dollar loss. Of tax revenue just for the first two apartment complexes in Pasco.

1:46:47Well and that's only if they stay at the twenty six percent and fifty six percent. Yeah, they're gonna be a good thing. But they can

1:46:52that's a

1:46:52rolling number.

1:46:53Yes. Yes. Well given the fact that the rents are just market rate rents, there's nothing really stopping them from Well trying to qualify all of their units for the exemption. And if you they qualified all their units, I think we were about eighty six million dollar loss. So Um It's a significant loss to revenue and that's just two apartment complexes. I think Commissioner Starkey You referenced the fact that you've been in some meetings where there's been other apartment complexes that have said that if they get if these first two get the exemption, this may just be the tip of

1:47:24the iceberg. There may be other apartment complexes that seek the same exemption.

1:47:27Yes, in the meeting yesterday I was notified by one of the the uh participants that he was bringing in two more apartments that are

1:47:35The other problem with that is uh that comes off our uh admiralum taxes. Somebody has to make up for all those services and that's the rest of our citizens are going to be charged extra but to pay in for services in those areas where they're not coming.

1:47:51tax the school district's taxes, taxes, mosquito control, all taxes. All tax. Including our general obligation bonds. So it actually exempts them from repaying the general obligation bonds that our voters approved in twenty eighteen.

1:48:06Can I can I just touch on something that the chairman just said? And something that is really, you know, every county is unique and we have a unique set of problems. We have an extraordinarily high number of of homes that are homesteaded in our county. We're up in the mid 70 percent, I think. And you can read that in David Engels' report. So if if we have to raise our millage to cover the millions of dollars we're gonna lose. It

1:48:37is the unhomesteaded homes. And our businesses that are gonna feel the impact. And so many you know, many of those people in the unsteaded h unhomesteaded homes are are lower income people that can't afford to buy a house. And I talked to people who own some of those homes and they said, Well, when you raise my tax, I just pass that on to my renter. So we're exacerbating the problem without a benefit to uh to our citizens.

1:49:06Mr. Chairman Mariano. For example, um the the one other city that did get involved in this regulation is is uh the city of Deberry, uh Belusha County. their program, their AMI at 120% is sixty-five thousand dollars. A one bedroom Uh market rate is seventeen forty three. two bedroom over two thousand. So this someone similar to us that is gonna go through the same exact problem.

1:49:32Right.

1:49:32So is it's this is I think when the others find out how significant this is and what their their ramifications could be for 'em, I think they're gonna get aware. I just hope us state senators and legislators up there uh are really paying attention to what this is going to do. This is a time to like We just have to and and I'm I'm grateful that the industrial is eliminated, but we gotta take the immersal commercial right out of it. In all these tax breaks, even for mixed use, if it's market rate, it's not helping the people they think they're trying to help. It may sound good, may be a great soundboard for affordable housing, affordable

1:50:03housing, but it's not taking care of the workforce people, the the teachers, the police police deputies that are out there that are struggling in the in these high rates that are here. If you want to go affordable, let them go affordable, bringing the AMA down eighty percent.

1:50:17So we so we are trying to get the law changed. I think you all know that. Ralph is Prepared a nice little set of talking points in this folder um about Live Local so that when you go up tomorrow You you have all the facts. Um I'll be up there too. I've already spoken to the committee on community affairs. I know Commissioner Starkey and Commissioner Oakley tried to speak to the fiscal policy committee. Um my understanding for Ralph of i is that fiscal policy was originally scheduled for Tomorrow morning, but then it's been Postponed, I believe. So

1:50:48I don't think there will be another committee meeting. We are still hopeful that The Senate President will change the law. We've made our

1:50:56Mm. Um but so far there's been very little movement from the Senate President's office and It appears as if the rest of the senators and legislators are taking their guidance from the Senate President's office. on this issue. Um If we can't get the law changed, um I think the board already knows you've authorized our office to start filing lawsuits. Um we have a demand letter and lawsuit ready to go. It's drafted. Some of you have seen it. Um so Sean asked us to hold off until the end of the week

1:51:26to see if we get the law change, but if were not successful this week. He said, Go ahead, send it, get the ball rolling. Um I do feel I can't promise you a victory, but I do pretty feel pretty good about some of our arguments. One of them is that We don't think these rents are a charitable purpose. The whole way this law was orchestrated the whole reason it was they were the legislature found it to be tax exempt was under the theory that this was a charitable purpose,

1:51:52right?

1:51:53Historically charitable purpose meant. 501c3 organizations. That's what charitable purpose meant. This is the first time we can find where the legislature has given a tax break to a for-profit corporation. under the theory that it's charity But in reality in Pasco County it's not charity in my opinion. These are just market rate rents. In fact, the two apartment complexes that came in First, didn't even reduce their rents at all. These these are the same rents they were charging prior to Lib Local, same rents they're charging now. So they're basically getting a tax

1:52:23exemption for doing virtually nothing. Um So that's kind of First step if we don't get the law changed, go ahead and file against those two those two companies. We hope they go away. Um or we hope that They don't go away. We hope Mike Wells reads our complaint and says I'm not issuing these exemptions. I these may be unconstitutional, these exemptions, so maybe I should not be issuing them. I don't know what Mike Wells will do when he gets them, but we'll have to figure that out when we get to that stage. Mr.

1:52:54Chairman Mariano. The other thing we started doing is in the rezoning for apartment complexes, and I know Commissioner Starkey wants to talk about this. We started putting in conditions that they waive the Advalorum tax exemption. And that's not gonna do much in terms of the existing apartment complexes because they They're not going to be bound by those things. But at least on the new ones we're trying to put that condition in. Now I've spoken to Commissioner Starkey She did ask me whether we can condition um site plan approvals on them not applying for the tax exemption

1:53:25And my answer is if they're seeking something from us, like a waiver of neighborhood parks or parking. I think at that point we would have a basis to condition those waivers on them not seeking the Avalorm tax exemption. So Um now if they've already got their site plan approval. Or they're built I'll just be honest with you, there's not much we can do other than the lawsuit route. That's really gonna be our only remedy if they've already got a site plan approval. And then we're going to do that. I would argue that if they're built

1:53:55already, I'm not sure what the purpose of this law was to begin with, because Commissioner Oriano has raised the point, just simple economics. I mean If you already built your apartment complex without a tax exemption

1:54:06You didn't choose to do it because of the tax exemption. You chose to do it because it was just Beneficial for you to build the apartment complex. So In my opinion, the tax exemption for the existing apartment complex is just a giveaway, is really all it is. Um

1:54:19can you talk about and I'm I was trying to find the email here and I I can't find it the way my email is about how many Current apartments are vulnerable. Um and how many We have approved but are not built yet.

1:54:35So I'm gonna let somebody from planning to attend the numbers.

1:54:39Yeah, I actually have the numbers here. Um PDD had pulled together some some very quick uh ballpark numbers here, and so I'm just gonna get you the high levels. Uh within the last five years, um we've had approximately the equivalent of thirty-six thousand apartment dwelling units or entitlements that have been approved within the past five years. Um and approximately eighteen thousand five hundred uh site plan approvals.

1:55:04Can you but can you put that I don't I know it is gonna be per room that will come off the uh or per unit that will come off the text roll, but about how many apartment complexes that it says there, I think.

1:55:15I would say that in the last five years talking about oh uh oh complexes I mean we've we've had about five thousand uh we've had over close to fifty five hundred units constructed within the last five years uh that are built.

1:55:28Well do the math if you did say

1:55:30an average of two eighty or something. Yeah, and then another twenty six hundred units currently permitted but not finished.

1:55:36Is

1:55:36that

1:55:36the paper that came out this morning?

1:55:38Uh this was the uh the document that came from Terry's team, yes ma'am?

1:55:42Well I thought it said how many units or how many apartment complexes on that paper.

1:55:46Uh assuming twenty units per building. I mean this is they're they're they're doing some rough some rough math. Um Two hundred and sixty seven buildings, so I mean that that's roughly what Ten. You know, if you do twenty units, uh oh I'm sorry, twenty units per building. I'm sorry.

1:56:02I think we must be around thirty, thirty to forty apartment complexes that could apply.

1:56:08Let me bring Brad up real quick. Brad Ch Chairman I'm looking for it.

1:56:13Ms. Morana,

1:56:13do

1:56:14you have something?

1:56:14Yes, I was I was gonna say as far as the lawsuit goes, um, you know, there's always a chance you don't win a lawsuit, right? Um I I know we did this a few years ago with the W Wesley Chapel area about uh doing a moratorium. Yeah. I I think we've got to protect ourselves. If this is if it's gonna go this way, we we need to protect ourselves. It's a moratorium around the whole county as we study this, and I think you get a a l a lot of s significant things to look at. What will be the economic impact to our to our our citizens if if this goes through and stays the way it is or even if they

1:56:44make some changes, they don't make all the changes we we need to get. So I I I want that to be out on the table and and Get that formulated as well.

1:56:52So I'll just quickly comment on that. A couple of issues with the moratorium. One is that it has to be limited duration. Right. So

1:57:00it's okay.

1:57:00The longest it can go is a year. Um and presumably it's so that you could formulate you know, standards for these multifamily projects, design standards, etcetera. Um there is a small possibility you might capture somebody who What I'll call an innocent person in a moratorium. So you you have to Be careful the way you craft that. Um My personal preference would be that you start first start looking at and I've discussed this with Commissioner Starkey Maybe plan amendments, you know, those are the easiest thing for us to defend.

1:57:30You've got a lot of plan amendments that Um You absolutely have every discretion to not approve those. And some of them You'll see some on the next agenda, in fact, I think, where plan amendments to for apartments. So That would be sort of the easiest thing to start attacking right away is Putting a hold on plan amendments that are Or that are getting to the levels of density that would allow for apartments. Um When you get into moratorium then you have to be very careful about how you're crafting that.

1:58:01I'm just I We talked about the Moratorium One Point as a nuclear option. I still think it is kind of a nuclear option. Um my preference would be that you Start with the litigation, start with some of the conditioning of the ex the zoning approvals, look at stopping some of the plan amendments that are allowing for apartments. Um That would be my preference. I'm not saying you can't do a mortatorium. I wanna be clear about that. But it's It's a little bit of a gray area under the law, so it's not would not be my first choice that you do that.

1:58:33So I'm and and I appreciate that, but like as you say, if it's a year. A year is good gives us a good amount of time and maybe the legislature if they don't get it right this time, maybe they do a special session or something to to get it right coming up. I don't know. But it's it's worthy of us because this could be absolutely devastating with what's built and what could come in. And we've got to if they're not going to be able to do that. Throw this on us. We've got to protect our people.

1:58:57Yeah, I will say putting aside the tax exemption for a second 'cause I realize that's got a unique issue because these are already built buildings, but On the land use side The litigation, in my opinion is starting to work in the sense that as soon as the board announced that you were going to start suing anybody that invokes The land use preemption, anybody that it was in the system applying for those things withdrew their application.

1:59:21Yeah, but I have someone who said they're gonna sue us.

1:59:24I would say bring it on. I feel comfortable defending that.

1:59:29Go ahead. I mean I if they want to try to invoke a law that I think is unconstitutional, I'm happy to defend that. All right.

1:59:35What what was what was in that memo this morning, there's thirty-six land use approvals for apartment complexes. There are seventy preliminary site plan approvals. That's a hundred. That's a hundred.

1:59:48So actually if I could explain that a little bit, uh Brad Tippin' Planning and Development. Uh yeah, the 36 land use approvals, that's that's land use approvals through MPDs and other factors, uh different things. Um that's in addition to actual Euclidean zonings that are already on the ground today. Uh well what's that number? So that's another thing. The actual site plan approvals, the 70 site plan approvals that we've done, that's your vulnerable piece right now. There's 18,500

2:00:18units that have been approved in site plans that could see this conversion that that we're talking about. A portion of those have been constructed, some of them are in a process, et cetera. So that's that's kind of where we're standing if you're looking for that number of actual vulnerability, it's it's roughly that that eighteen thousand. Right.

2:00:37When we were first doing the math on those two apartment complexes, and if they went a hundred per 100%, well, I guess it's if they go tw 120 AMI, 75%, right? If they go 80%, it's a hundred percent off the off the ad valorem. We were figuring it was about a million dollars a complex. That's just for year one. You know, a as as you go through As you go through that that delta that we're losing multiplies because our the ad valorem would have been going up every year. So we

2:01:07just s it's just a massive, massive hit. Um that how do we even plan our budget when we don't know how many in in an apartment complex are gonna roll off. Because it's a rolling number. For example, I believe that the one that's 26, that's 26 units, I think that's the one in Trinity, but I'm not 100% sure. I believe they're at the number 26, 120 AMI, because they went through their applicants and they they know

2:01:37the salaries because you have to give that when you apply. So they know what they have without doing anything. So every year that number's going to change. And so how do you predict what the hit is gonna be?

2:01:51Yeah.

2:01:52We need to floor this item so we can finish our business for this morning. Uh we'll floor it to the end of the day. 'Cause there's a lot of things to be discussed and come up with the right answer. So Okay. Table it. Yeah. Table it, excuse me. Floor table.