AP9 BCS 220270 flood ordinance and NFIP

1:51:30All right, so the last item on the agenda is AP9, and that will be presented by my colleagues in Building Construction Services.

1:51:48Good afternoon, Mr. Chairman Planning Commission. My name is S. Sol Luiemi. Director Building Official for Pasco County. Uh before you again this afternoon is the BCS twenty-two oh two seven zero. which is a revised flood ordinance to section eleven oh four of the Land Development Code.

1:52:14We are here today to provide clarity and answers to questions raised two weeks ago. So uh my colleague is uh distributing and working up all the d uh corrections that we made and hopefully we can follow

1:52:34Each page has to clarify.

1:52:40Thank you.

1:52:52Ready? Okay, yes. Uh please uh look at the The ordinance, page nine. One of the questions raised on page nine two weeks ago was about The change made in 2021 to decide you see a uh a draw box there that explains it.

1:53:19In twenty twenty-one, the legislative transferred the program from the FDOH, that is the health department, to the Federal Department of Environmental Protection. And that is according to the chapter sixty two. Thank you, Mr. Mwille, for pointing out that. And if you turn to page ten. The question raised there and the answer provided. That is in the development permit and inspection procedures. In

1:53:51on this page, we're in searching back the floodplain to make sure that uh The floodplain was deleted as part of the updates, but it is being restored to coincide with its definition in appendice A of the Land Development Code. So now it will be the floodplain development permit or approval.

1:54:21Okay, and if you can turn with me to page twenty seven.

1:54:34And this is on the variances. the use of the hearing officer. Anthony, can you come up and uh speak to this?

1:54:48Good afternoon, Chair and Board. Anthony Mistracio, Deputy Building Official, Building Construction Services. The the hearing officer was created in conjunction with the county attorney's office. It's vested through the county attorney's office. Um so the input from BCS or any other department does not exist. And when this was when this was being vetted out, um By the uh senior assistant county attorney. It was

1:55:18vetted in the in the process of hearing some of our our dilemmas and and our flood issues that We're brought forth to the construction board. Um it's a board that we attend every two months. And what was found is that they were not well versed in the flood zone. And we had some issues that were posed from those hearings. So in conjunction with the county attorney They vetted a uh hearing officer or it may be multiple, but it's a

1:55:48hearing officer that's that has knowledge of flood zone and any procedure that we bring forth to that hearing officer.

1:55:57So and this was, I see that Christy Sims may still be online. Um Christy had drafted up this uh this in reflect to the hearing officer and the procedure set forth.

1:56:10Okay, thank you.

1:56:13And the last Question and clearly it's on page twenty nine.

1:56:24And if you look at uh the questions, the other page that you have, page one to four. Uh Rebecca Queen attempted to Clarify that issue with that language that was labeled and we're open to any changes that we needed to do, which we're willing. We've talked extensively with Mr. Moody, and we're willing and ready when we don't have our back to the wall to come back to the board

1:56:54and see what we can do to work with the board and arrive at what we needed to uh for the benefit of Pasco County citizens.

1:57:08All right.

1:57:10Questions?

1:57:12Any questions please?

1:57:13Are we gonna hear from Christy?

1:57:18She's she's online so she can unmute herself whenever she'd like to speak.

1:57:25Okay.

1:57:27Um Mr. Gray wasn't here last time, so I just want to kind of give you a little background. I don't know if you watched the last meeting, but no, I was I've been intimately involved. With staff. Commissioner Mariano back in May when this thing was first Sent out to the commissioners in a horizontal round table meeting, asked both myself and Barbara Wilhite me to provide some

1:57:58interpretation for him and her some legal interpretation so he could help understand what the proposed changes were. And since then I've been working with the staff back and forth trying to understand the changes and I've learned a lot more about the national flood insurance program than I ever wanted to know. In my life. I've even spoken with Ms. Rebecca Quinn. Yeah. Um on the telephone. to understand the role

1:58:28between the federal government and the state government and the county government. I get told, well, all the rules of participation in NFIP are in CFR forty four Part sixty and fifty nine and I look at those and then I get handed a state model ordinance and it's different from what the federal government is so I got confused. I had all kinds of questions and She was very helpful in clarifying some of these issues. Um

1:59:00I'm down to Basically one last issue on this And that is and I asked the question and there was some lengthy debate and Mr. Hansel who's not here picked up on this and had some concerns. In that In the Version of eleven oh four that's currently in effect today. variance requests and appeals are heard by the Planning Commission. And in this version of the proposed ordinance,

1:59:31the proposal is to give it to a hearing officer. So I asked why. And There was quite a bit of confusion during the last meeting. Nobody quite knew who the hearing officer was and I know Mr. Hansel expressed he was concerned. He said he if he got a pulled over on the way out of the meeting in Dade City and got a ticket from a Florida state trooper, well at least he'd know who to go to appeal to, but he wasn't sure how this worked in this ordinance. So since that time

2:00:03I've inquired a little bit and I've learned a little bit about the origination of the hearing officer process and How that related to demolition orders. But I'm still confused to this day by two things. On Tuesday morning, was it Tuesday or Wednesday, Sally? We had a WebEx meeting with you and your staff and Barbara Wilhite. And When we got to

2:00:33this particular item What you guys explained to me was that the hearing officer would be a subject matter expert. And I said, okay, I took some level of comfort. in that the hearing officer would be a subject matter expert. Given that these are technical issues. I had proposed to staff that perhaps it was wiser to give the approval of variances to the construction board since they deal with more technical matters of the building code. But

2:01:05what I'm

2:01:11Officer is not a subject matter expert, so I have two questions. If someone can clarify. Is the hearing officer a subject matter expert? And Why does staff want to move the process to a hearing officer? I'm not necessarily opposed to doing that, but I want to understand why you want to do it and I want to know that this person actually knows about this issue.

2:01:44I'm waiting to see if oh, there's Christy.

2:01:53She's

2:01:53there. Does somebody if you want me to talk, I'm I can't answer why staff wants to move it to a hearing officer, but I certainly can tell you who the officer hearing officer is. How we came to have a hearing officer and I can give you my opinion regarding whether he's a subject matter expert on the subjects that would be required for him to hear. and make legal and factual conclusions regarding variances.

2:02:23Okay.

2:02:23So either I I I'm happy to talk about it or answer what I perceive to be the questions, but I certainly cannot answer why staff wants to move it from planning commission to a hearing officer.

2:02:38Okay. Well is that I spoke to I wanna disclose that I had a c telephone conversation with Christy the other day. She tried she called my called me and tried to help me understand how why how a hearing officer was created and why and what happened during COVID with the construction board not meeting so the impression I was left if with after speaking with you is that the hearing officer is just a Or

2:03:10A Florida bar member, an attorney, but not necessarily a subject matter expert. They're not an expert in You know, the Florida building code or the flood issues related to section eleven oh four or or those in the Florida Building Code. Well in order to

2:03:29correct Mr. Muggy.

2:03:33Um let me just interrupt. Is is there any is there some particular reason why we don't just leave it with the With the Planning Commission and that solved the problem.

2:03:44In accordance with And

2:03:48With all due respect, in Chapter eighteen of the Code of Ordnance. It um under the title hearing officer and you've got that in here. It was saying that um appeals for demolition. construction or pro post construction. That substantiates improvements based on flood damage prevention ordinance is heard by a hearing officer.

2:04:20When I went online I saw a bid proposal from our county attorney pursuing hearing officers. and the hearing officer the way that it was written up was for specifically for a purpose and that was what was bidded out. That's my understanding of the process. So that's what I went by. And just going by prior experience and

2:04:50and again there's no written process that I was able to find other than what I was able to find online where hearing officer services for specific things were bidded out. Prior experience in local government says this is any legal representation that's needed is vested with the county attorney's office to secure, again, this is just over 40 years of experience in local government. I

2:05:21can't hire attorney. But it's all vested with the county attorney's office. And so the use of a hearing officer is only requested when a specific need is is made. Um if you wanna leave it planning commission, This was what was it was changed to um based on Chapter 18. That's what's in Chapter 18 that exists today. um that those items will be heard by a hearing

2:05:51officer and that's why we have it, like we have it.

2:05:58I see Christy shaking her head.

2:06:02Is that not the case, Christy?

2:06:05That's not the case. The reference to the hearing officer procedure in Chapter 18 is specifically regarding demolition and appeals of substantial damage and substantial improvement determination.

2:06:22Okay.

2:06:25So just um as a bit of background the county first hired a hearing officer back in 2015 when the Board of County Commissioners adopted a an ordinance um that under certain circumstances allowed people to be trespassed from public property. In conjunction with adopting that ordinance, the county needed to provide some sort of due process or place for a person who was given a trespass warning could appeal

2:06:56to. At that point, um it was put out for bid and the county attorney's office, and I'm not a procurement attorney, so I can't, you know, tell you all of the Yeah. eyes that were crossed and eyes that were dotted and T's that were crossed, but about the procurement process. But we retained a hearing officer first year. Appeals from the trespassing ordinance. Yeah. Shortly thereafter, um

2:07:27Asked the hearing officer whether he would be willing to hear appeals from demolition orders as well. Um he agreed, uh, price was agreed upon um for that. So those appeals first had gone to the Board of County Commissioners and then it had been switched to the construction board. The construction board struggled with them because they they can become quite complex and involve you

2:07:57know, multiple aspects of um Um not just the construction, but then when you throw flood on top of it, construction a flood zone. Those those are often very um

2:08:14adversarial hearings. So they take on the nature of trial, um, depending on

2:08:24The s the the property at issue and and the depth of agreement or disagreement between the county and whoever is trying to um repair a uh a property rather than demolish it. So those appeals were then moved to the hearing officer who again we already had because we had to retain a hearing officer because of the trespassing ordinance. It then became apparent um during the

2:08:54pandemic Um The Construction board had jurisdiction to hear appeals from substantial improvements, substantial damage determinations. Yeah. Due to the fact that that board meets only every other month. They didn't meet at all during the pandemic. Um Demolition appeals were being held up because the substantial damage, substantial improvement aspect of

2:09:24a demolition when the property was in the flood zone was going to a different fact finder and conclusion maker than the hearing officer. So those were also then rolled over to the hearing officer. The hearing officer is Matt Maggard. Matt Maggard serves as the city attorney for the city of Zephyrhills. Um, while he is a very well thought of and certainly a friend of mine, and I have the

2:09:54utmost respect for his skills. I do not think that Matt Maggard would stand in front of this board and profess to be a subject matter expert in all of the Um issues regarding blood plane regulation that may arise. in a variance proceeding. He um He does has he had his own firm, which has since been um acquired and he is um associated Well

2:10:25it's Shoemaker Loop. Um His hearing availability is monthly and is coordinated through the County Attorney's Office based on his schedule and the schedule of whichever attorney is prosecuting the case in front of Mr. Maggard. Um I will note that if variances were to switch from The Planning Commission to the County Attorney's Office. And let me

2:10:55make it clear. The County Attorney's Office had nothing to do with the idea to switch it from the Planning Commission. This was something that the building official approached me and told me that she wanted to do. So I merely inserted the reference to the correct. Section of the code that would provide the procedure for them to do that. The policy decision to remove variances from the Planning Commission to a hearing officer was made by BCS and not at the direction

2:11:25or even with consultation to me. I expressed to Mr. Moody yesterday, and I'll go ahead and express it to the entire board, that having served as the attorney for the construction board for the last 20 years, I also do not believe that the construction board Um Wait. easily um be able to wrestle with the interplay between the

2:11:55county's development regulations which These are contractors and lay people on the construction board. I I do not think that there is anyone um that is more suited to um

2:12:15Here and determine the interplay between the floodplain regulations and the development regulations than the Planning Commission. Y'all do this every two weeks. I I think. I was actually hoping to end my career at Pasco County without appearing before you, but that seems to be a goal that I have failed at. But I I'm here to answer any other questions regarding the hearing officer.

2:12:46But I told you who he is. Um I have not asked Mr. Maggard whether he would be willing to hear variances and how much he would charge for them, nor have I gone down the road of figuring out what the procurement process would be to add that in to the types of hearings that he hears if if it is in fact eventually changed from the Planning Commission to a peering officer, because there seemed to be some question regarding them whether

2:13:17that was going to actually happen. So

2:13:20Chair, staff have no problem going back to the original ordinance with the Planning Commission hearing the item.

2:13:27All right, Sally. Thank

2:13:28you very much.

2:13:29Thank you very much. Yeah, thank you, Christy.

2:13:31I appreciate that. I also want to let you You too know we'd had the discussion about critical facilities. Um I spoke with Cindy Jolly the other day. Yeah. You enlightened me and brought up a good point. in that Most of the Things that are contemplated as being critical facilities in the proposed ordinance are already regulated in the Florida Building Code. So I've pointed that out to

2:14:01the others. I've been working with So I don't think there's too much issue there anymore.

2:14:10Okay.

2:14:12Position?

2:14:13Any other questions? John? Jamie? Than you.

2:14:19No, I I mean I I don't have a lot of questions. I guess just just background and and I know we we treaded on this or talked about this briefly before, but just so make sure I understand This is a requirement in order to maintain the current classification for the flood insurance, correct?

2:14:34Yes, sir.

2:14:35And the deadline for this to be done is

2:14:38before September we have FEMA five years visitation in September and we needed to have these in the books before they come.

2:14:49Okay, so the changes that are proposed here and I apologize, I I mean Literally all of this this whole red line document literally handed out. I got it like ten minutes ago. Um so I haven't had a chance to go buy it. But again, what is proposed here for the revisions, just to clarify, is only the minimum requirements required to maintain our current

2:15:11rating,

2:15:11correct?

2:15:12The requirements with that requires the NFIP. Is absolutely nothing. I have all the subject matter experts. I have the EOC here that can respond to the critical facility. I have the stormwater director here. So everybody's gone through this document, and we've explained this in details to Mr. Mudi. So the only thing that we were doing. Doing it that will have given us more

2:15:42points. We've already backed out of it. That is the eCOSO as the V zones.

2:15:49Yes. And

2:15:49we've backed out of

2:15:51that's still and you still go on with that in Chapter eighteen that you'll allow the stem walls and the case. Exactly. Yeah.

2:15:56So and and really the reason I asked that is because there was other discussion and I thought I remembered other discussion from the last Planning Commission meeting where we talked about the potential to or or there was things looked at to go from I don't forget and I'm probably wrong in this, but is it class

2:16:09six to class five? So we have other departments and that's what I'm trying to explain to you the stormwater management and also the UC. That are working in conjunction with every that's this is the base. If we can get through this base, at least to secure that we're not losing the 3.1 million that our citizens are getting right now. then we can even think of moving to the next phase. Okay. But right now it's not

2:16:39to drop to renew, which will means no

2:16:44Here to help you out. Laura Wilcoxon, I'm the Assistant Director for Pasco County Emergency Management. I'm also a certified floodplain manager and part of my role in emergency management is recovery, which oversees our CRS component for that. Uh with the changes that are proposed now, they are the bare minimum that we need to keep R6. If we do not make these modifications at this timing, we really risk going down to a nine, which would lose $2.3 million in

2:17:14flood insurance savings across the community. So we are really we've been working with building construction services. We've really narrowed it down to just the changes that have to occur to keep that six. Okay. Very good.

2:17:28Just a little bit of background, Jamie. The regulation of critical facilities isn't in the current version of 1104, but it's proposed here. And they do get It appears they get eighty points towards the C R S score which I don't know. When I talked to Rebecca, she told me that Pasco County had a community rating score of six, but that we barely had accrued enough points to keep six. Yes. So Maybe the eighty that they get

2:17:58for the critical facilities gives them a little cushion.

2:18:01Okay.

2:18:01Might Take on it is ninety-nine percent of that's already regulated under the Florida Building Code. Um Barbara Wilhite had expressed some concerns about like nursing homes and ALFs. Well I checked and the Florida Building Code strictly regulates the finished floor elevation of a nursing home. So that's

2:18:21I

2:18:21don't know whether it's in here, I'm not sure we need to have duplication, but I don't think it does us n any harm because ultimately when you go to get that building permit, you're gonna get hit with it anyway.

2:18:31So again, I think part of the uh like Mr. Moody explained is already in the Florida building code, which is the ASC 2414. But majority of the time when a citizen comes for review and we had to tell them this is an attempt not to blindside them for them to see it upfront and to be able to get give it to their design professional to put it into consideration while doing their design. So it's not

2:19:02at the eleventh hour that they're just hearing about it.

2:19:07Okay. Well, as the design professionals we're supposed to be familiar with the Florida building go to, so

2:19:14That's what you think.

2:19:16And I learned something in the process of this.

2:19:18So Any other questions? Mm well Do I hear a motion then to approve uh But with the exception of leaving with the Planning Commission?

2:19:31I would move to approve the recommend approval of the ordinance with the change that the Variances remain with the Planning Commission.

2:19:41Second. Any further discussion on the motion? If not, all in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Yeah. Opposed, motion carries.