Public comment on flooding and development
What the county recorded
This item is not from the published agenda
It is a stretch of the recording that this archive identified as a separate matter — a call to order, a recess, or something taken up that the agenda does not list. There is no official title, no staff recommendation and no disposition, because the county never recorded one. Everything below is inferred.
The source document
The county’s agenda for Planning Commission, Nov 7, 2024
The published PDF, as served by the county. This item is one entry in it.
The county’s minutes for Planning Commission, Nov 7, 2024
The published PDF, as served by the county. This item is one entry in it.
What was said
Machine transcription of 36m of recording, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 82% of 129 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.
Um there's no minutes to approve today. Um so I'm gonna move on to the um public comment period. If there's anybody here to speak to anything that's not on the agenda. Today, now would be your time. I want to go ahead before I a couple things before we start that um And this goes for any if you're speaking on any item. When we request that when you address the Planning Commission and the LPA Please do not direct comments at the planning
directly at any of the commission members or team member, but rather directed at the issues at hand. This provides mutual respect between the Commission members and the public. Okay and also uh if you plan to I a couple things approve a publication first
The items are advertised in Tampa Bay Times on August 21, 2024, and
October 23,
2024, and
by certified mailings and site postings.
Okay, thank you. And if anybody here is planning to give testimony today, please stand so you can be sworn.
Do you swear from the testimony you ever want to give us the truth? So help you back.
Okay, so at this time um public comment for anything not on the agenda today. When you come f when you come forward please state your name and address for the record, please.
My name's Michael Pultorek, [address removed]. Mm this is not an agenda item. Do you have the uh PowerPoint flood regulations?
No worries.
I don't think so because it's
just a presentation. Just not really you don't have to receive a file during public file. Okay.
All right.
Good afternoon, gentlemen. I'm speaking here for all of the residents of Pasco County, all the frustrated residents, the thousands of flooded out residents on the east side of the county, and there's an unfair situation that's been happening. First, I want to point out the 2024 Florida statutes 163.3202. This specifically addresses land development regulations. Number two says local land development regulations shall contain at a minimum
the use of land and water for those land use categories include in the land use element and ensure compatibility of adjacent uses. This is the county organization in intergovernmental relations. This is from the state. This gives the issue to you, not the state. One of the main reasons here is to regulate areas subject to seasonal and periodic flooding and provide for drainage and stormwater management.
I point that out because Pasco LDC, or Building Code eleven oh four, says, the special flood hazard areas of the county are subject to periodic inundation which may result in loss of life and property. Health and safety, etc.
disruption of commerce, of governmental services, Extraordinary public expenditures for flood protection and relief. And in the next section, flood losses are caused by cumulative effects of obstructions in floodplains, occupancy in flood hazard areas by uses vulnerable to floods, or hazardous to lands which are inadequately elevated, flood-proofed. or unprotected from flood damages.
Mm-hmm.
Now, the objectives here is to restrict use and minimize public and private losses due to flood conditions.
The third objective is to control the alter alteration between natural floodplains, stream channels, etcetera I I I could read all of this to you, but you haven't. FEMA says special floodplains are any area that has a 1% chance of flooding or a 100-year floodplain. Here's your FEMA definitions. I also recognize Senate Bill one oh two, which is housing. which is the Live Local Act. However, the Live Local Act, while it says
you cannot stop rezoning for residential of multifamily, it does not say in here that we have to roll over on floodplain management or stormwater management plans for the properties. I have been here for five years explaining to you guys we do not have a countywide flood management plan. Now your residents are about to have the Army Corps come in here and figure out how many bypass canals, drainages, pump stations it's gonna take to
fix the fact that since 2012, when the FEMA regulations were acknowledged and absorbed by the county, The developers have not been forced to protect their neighbors. Adjacent uses is the current neighbors. These developers, by these definitions, should be held to a 100 year storm because we need to understand. that the hundred year storm does not come during the dry season. It comes during the existing wet season.
So the ground is already saturated with water. The water doesn't permeate. I'm not gonna insult you with pictures of developments. We all know they go up ten, twenty feet, and you don't wanna be their neighbor. But the problem is this is the most sensitive piece of the Connected City. This is the Keton MPUD. This is the north part right here. Right here is where you're going to put a four-lane road. and in that flooded section a hundred and six thousand square feet of commercial. This is
dangerous. Where is the water supposed to go?
This right here, to the right, that little dry section is where the road's gonna be. This is from the South looking forward with your plans that have been submitted to you. The red line is the edge of the four-lane paved road in the easement. All of the commercial is supposed to be on the south side of that red line. The flooding that we had a couple of weeks ago On this top of the map, Everything that has purple lines on it was flooded. The floodwaters went to one hundred and four point five feet.
The red line is the edge of where the road's gonna go. The 106,000 square feet of commercial is all in what flooded. This is an issue now like it's never been before because of the media and because of emotions. We don't want to stop development. We don't want to stop future neighbors from moving in. We've been pleading with you for five years to please develop a countywide stormwater
management plan.
We need this. Before any more developments are allowed to come in, increase density, change comprehensive views, or get
Elements of the current plans approved to benefit developers to make it cheaper or faster to build. We need your help. This is on behalf of all of your residents. Please meet us in the middle and protect us, your current residents. Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Okay. Anybody from the guys wanna adjust that or
Well let me start by saying you there's no obligation for you to address public comment, but I mean if anybody wants to call comment they can. It's up to you all.
May I ask the gentleman a question?
In your opinion. What is a countywide stormwater management plan? Our land development code contains stormwater regulations which do regulate up to the one hundred year flood. Our land development code. and the conditions of approval of all developments in this county. require permits from the Water Management District, whose regulations in sixty two three thirty also require
management and storage of surface water, stormwater, up to and including the 100-year flood, and including mitigation of impacts to flood plains. So there are regulations in place. The Florida Florida was one of the very first states in the United States to adopt a comprehensive set of stormwater regulations. We have some of the most stringent stormwater regulations of any state in the country. Not saying
we have the most, but it's one of the most. So I'm curious what is it that you have in mind for a plan? There are regulations that do control to make sure that development does control stormwater runoff. So I'm curious what things do you think need to be added to those regulations?
Thank you for the question and more importantly, thank you for allowing me to answer because normally in public forum once once the three minutes is in, thank you for allowing me to go past three minutes because these are very valid issues and we've gotta start talking about them. Let me answer on on two fronts there. The first is on very close to an agenda item, I believe it's gonna be the second one. I'll be back up here speaking about it. Very close to
that is the stormwater management facility. One of the issues that's very uh important right now is the king leg uh drainage basin. Okay? All of the homeowners on the west side are flooding out and all of those flood waters that you saw, the next presentation we'll have pictures of three and a half feet of water over our road. Nobody could get in or out. The neighbors took care of neighbors. Okay. Caddy corner to that and before Elam was
built, we proposed doing an overflow to the basin that would go to the stormwater management facility. that in itself would have protected and captured the excess water and this connected city that we're putting into place. By all means we could have put reclaimed water into the infrastructure and sold that water back to the residents and the businesses. The reason I say it like that is because that drainage basin is a
clay bottle. There's no spring. The water isn't going anywhere. So all of the water that's captured there, it's stuck. It has to go somewhere. When the agenda item comes up, I'm gonna be able to show you where it's going to and the real issue with one of these projects. But
The the second issue and the frustrating part for us is every time I've been here to speak on a on a new project. the argument is given back to you Well, we're following state building codes. State building codes. Or a minimum. For the state. Pasco County is a higher risk flood area. because this was all cattle pastures. This is
cattle pastures. And now we're putting high density developments on cattle pastures. So when we cover the surface with non permeable roofs, foundations, driveways, roads, or The uh shedding of water into retention ponds, there's a l a capacity limit. And the reason I say that is because the argument that's been given
back to this board repeatedly, this commission, is, well, we're holding the twenty-four hour formula. and developments have refused to exceed that to protect their neighbors from what we all know is really the hundred year storm. During the wet seasons. If we have three afternoons in a row of thunderstorms, we all know there's water pillowing everywhere. Well take two days of storms and then any rain
event. And the the reason I I wanted to point out the Neighbors, adjacent uses, property, health, life is because I have the exact number on my phone. But fire rescue had to do 2,000 evacuations. During Milton. They had to do 188 rescues. that has not only flooded out thousands of our neighbors, which at this point in Dade City and Zephyrhills, if it's our older population, They're on fixed
incomes. They're their house payments are low enough to where they can live the rest of their days. They cannot afford the cost of new construction to rebuild and pay back loans at six and a half per cent. and live in those homes. I have heard from countless homeowners that have now decided they're going to slap new drywall in and sell and they have to go somewhere else because they can't afford to rebuild what they had. That's not fair to our current residents.
I understand the concern that we're all We're all Very sympathetic. to the flooding that resulted from the back to back hurricanes. But To my question. What what type of plan is it that you envision or would like to see? The one thing I I practiced stormwater for a living. Okay, and we follow those regulations and I've
been doing this for 30 years.
what level is enough protection. Right now, depending whether you're in an open drainage or basin or a closed drainage basin, The level of stormwater protection is a 25-year, 24-hour storm, or a 100-year 24-hour storm, or If you're familiar with the Florida Department of Transportation, if you're draining into one of their facilities, you're required to look at 48 different storm events all the way from the two-year, one-hour storm
to the one hundred-year, ten-day storm.
At what level do you perceive is enough protection? Do we look at the 100-year storm, the 500-year storm, the 1,000-year storm? forty days and forty nights of rain and we gather up the animals and put 'em on the ark. But I'm not trying to be funny. It's that we have to make a balance of what is an acceptable level of protection. I'm not saying that the that the regulations that are in place provide enough or don't provide enough, but I'm trying to get a a
feel from you as to what you think is enough. I I'm sure that the community's going to have a discussion and a debate and probably the state is probably going to look back at its regulations and say, well maybe we should be not just twenty-four hour events but multi-day events and I will tell you in my own experience it's not usually the one day event that's a problem. It's usually the Three or four days and a of rain in a row, you know, w
we can have that or And unfortunately what we saw in Milton was rainfall amounts that came in an extremely short time. So we talk about a hundred year storm in our areas generally twelve inches of rainfall in a twenty-four hour period. In Milton there were areas of the county that received sixteen to eighteen inches of rainfall in a four to six hour period. That's an unprecedented event. that no one could have ever contemplated.
And I'm not suggesting the regulations can't be better, but what level of protection is it that you think we need?
First off I wanna thank you because you have always been um constructive and positive whenever I'm up here speaking with you guys. So first off I wanna say thank you, okay? Because I believe a lot of these conversations are going to have to be constructive. All right. Not you. Some of your peers in the past have asked me where I got my civil engineering degree from. And I don't have one. I'm not an engineer. Okay? I am finishing up my third master's degree and I've got a doctorate in common sense at this
point. Okay? Well
you're speaking intelligently about the subject
of accounts. So um I try to bring
Some Objective stancer. Okay. Common sense tells me That's right. When The environment is changing. Okay. That W however it is we're looking at things, maybe we should consider sliding that scale or making improvements if we have proof that what we are permitting developments to abide by is now threatening our current county. Now when I say
that what what I'd like to give you as an example is I have several neighbors here. Alright. Before the hurricane Just from two afternoons of rain. What I want to tell you is This gentleman. lost his foundation of his home. And we didn't even see a hurricane. That's just from afternoon thunderstorms. We don't have to talk about a hundred year storm. And I'm sure it's going to be a little emotional when we talk
about uh timber pines, because that one's going to have an effect on this gentleman. But if we can give you examples currently that don't involve that hurricane, or twelve or sixteen or inch eighteen inches of rain. We already know there's a problem. And so I I really think that it's time in a positive, constructive way that maybe we need to reevaluate the standards that we're holding new developments to. Because currently with what we're using, they're flooding out
their neighbors. We've got linemen whose homes are still underwater. that aren't even in a flood zone, right behind the YMCA and Zephyrhills. We have residents that will not make it back to their homes to find out that they're never gonna live in them again. for two more weeks? And While I com You're much smarter than I am with Stormwater. Much smarter than I am. But that rain came in four to six hours. Many of these people didn't start flooding. until
two to four days later. when that water stacked up. That tells me that the four hours, if it would have been over twelve hours or twenty four hours, was still the same amount of rainwater that flooded them up two, three, four days later. So we're asking you, please. Can we Maybe tap the brakes on some development and figure out how to protect our current residents.
Yeah, I I think the big thing to delineate between here is the event that we saw with the storms and what's happening. Obviously that's the most painful event at the forefront of everyone's memories. But, you know, again, that's arguably one of those a hundred year storms or maybe even a five hundred year storm, we don't know. But I think that the key is is to look at what was happening before then. If if we are getting problems within these developments on afternoon thunderstorms, that's something that should be regulated
and should be fixed. You know, although this is kind of a painful subject right now because of the storms, it's probably not a good example to use when it comes to talking about what's happening. Um, because a lot of what happened with that storm you just couldn't design for. If you could it would make development so expensive that nobody could buy the homes. And
Yes sir. And uh again just as an example for the everyday the everyday example. Out of the last what eight weeks, our road has uh and it's a very used public road. Okay, our road's been washed out all but maybe ten days in the last eight weeks.
Okay.
It's still going to be costly, right?
I I got yeah. So the the there's parts of the county where regardless of hurricanes. The
big part of what's going on right now is that watershed from other basins that are m you know, it takes a long time for that water to move through a fat, flat piece of land out to the Gulf. So that's that's why we're seeing that because there's so much rain that was dumped on that.
And it may call for drainage canals, it may call for pump stations.
Those are
Other places deal
with those. So those well, but those are interesting concepts. So Back in the nineteen sixties. The Army Corps of Engineers and its infinite wisdom decided it was going to drain the swampland in Florida too and it came and it straightened out the Kissimmee River and we managed to dehydrate and destroy the Everglades. Yes. Okay, now we've just paid billions of dollars to put all the curves back in the Kissimmee River. At one time the brilliant Army Corps of Engineers came in to decide
we're going to up near Inglis dig a canal across the state of Florida so that we can gut barge traffic through. Okay. And what what what was the result of that? Salt water intrusion into the Florida and aquifer. So I'm not convinced that the Army Corps of Engineers is Pasco County's great savior. Or that and I would tell you that current Current federal and state regulations don't
actually allow us to do projects like straightening out the Kissimmee River or to dig drainage canals. If you I don't know if you've you're familiar with the drainage in South Florida. There's a the South Florida Water Management District is a series of canals. that lead from those swamps out into the Atlantic Ocean. You couldn't get a permit today, you couldn't get a federal permit today to do something like that. So although I hear you and it may be what we maybe perceive
as common sense, there are still federal laws that prohibit us. But Lord, this county took fourteen years to get a permit to build from the Army Corps of Engineers to build Ridge Roads. Longer than that, it's close to twenty years. It's close to twenty years. They're not the I think the point I'm trying to make is I know we want to get rid of the water and it sounds like digging a giant ditch out to the Gulf is the most expeditious way we achieve getting rid of the water. But
trying to get permits and approvals for these things are not something that's simple. It takes millions and millions of dollars and sometimes decades to try to do. Um so I just they're not there are not any simple, easy answers. Are there things that we can do To try to reduce stormwater runoff? Sure. Maybe we can require less impervious surface and
more green space, but you know, we all create to stormwater runoff too. How many of your neighbors? Move into a subdivision and they've got a sixty foot wide lot and we're in here debating the width of lots all the time. And they've got A two-car garage. And then they've got two high school students with cars, now all of a sudden I need to widen my driveway and I concrete my driveway. Or when I moved into that subdivision I didn't have a swimming pool and
then I put in a swimming pool and a big concrete deck. around there. I didn't have sidewalks around the side of my house and now I paved the side of my house. I go into neighborhoods like Gulf Harbors. and people have pavers. from their house all the way out to their neighbor's property line and the next neighbors put papers in all the way on their side of the house. All this stuff contributes to stormwater runoff too. So it's something that we all have to be aware of. Every every time each of us creates an impervious
surface, we're adding to that problem. I'm not telling you that development doesn't contribute stormwater runoff, but we all do. It's just like we all generate trash and we all generate wastewater. So everybody needs to keep that in mind too when we want things of convenience around our own homes. But I'll be looking forward to the discussion on the MPUD that's on the agenda. I had planned on pulling that and I have questions about the stormwater too, so I'm sure we'll have a nice discussion. Thank
you.
Sir, one piece of advice. Yes sir. If you give the speech to the board, don't suggest that Pasco County's rolling over on the Live Local Act. Because I I
couldn't
hear you, I'm sorry. You made a comment
Oh, but l locally, yeah.
I don't have your full presentation, but if I pull it back up. You referenced the Live Local Act in your presentation. Yeah,
we're we're taking Live Local very seriously. Uh I in I maybe
I maybe repeat your comment. I don't forgot what you said about it, but it sounded like you were suggesting the Pasco County's rolling over for No,
no, no.
It shouldn't be it shouldn't allow developers to roll us on stormwater protection is all I said. I didn't
there's no kickback. Yeah, just I that's probably your point, but uh just so you know, Pasco County is not allowed a single Live Local project period.
Then I applaud Pasco County.
And pass through camera.
Yeah.
In fact our borders threaten to sue any developer that tries to use it.
And and you know that I'm in those meetings also. I I applaud Pasco County for fighting it. for many reasons. For many reasons, but it is still state statute and um the issue is it it doesn't tell the county they have to approve the development plans as submitted. If it doesn't handle it, it's not a good idea.
Yes, but
It scares a lot of people.
But my only point is that they'd have to get in the door to even invoke the lib I mean, to even submit a project to have that be a problem. And Pasco County is not even letting them in the door. So Just by way of knowledge or just see my is there's a lot of residents if I were giving this presentation I'd stay away from that. I'd just focus on the stormwater stuff.
There's a lot of residents that have been uh told by uh county representatives that that's one issue that the county is handcuffed on and it it has given to many of us it has really given the image that um the county doesn't have a choice to to roll o but to roll over on it. And I but I I do I applaud the county for everything it's doing on that issue. I've been here, I've I've heard Commissioner Weightman talk about it. I know how passionate he is about it. Um and I applaud the
BOCC and the county as a whole for that, um, because we do need employment and we need other issues besides just high density housing.
Okay. I I wasn't sure how much of an understanding you had about it since you brought it up, but yes. Sounds like you do. So thank you, sir.
And I'd just like to add that you're obviously involved and paying attention as a lot of other people that are here as well. Pasco County's in the process of updating the stormwater master plan that they've got, which is through public works and they're just a consultant doing it and just looked at the scope of that. It does include watershed management plans. and project review. So j that's looking at the schedule, I think it's July of next year is supposed to be the when they bring the results of that to the public. Given what has happened in the middle of this study, I'm sure that the board's gonna be more critical of that study,
but keep an eye on that too is input there is going to be, you know, I think valuable.
So could I make a suggestion? Especially with the Pasco connected city. Many of us feel, uh, and I've had county representatives also say this, okay? That there's so much happening and so many approvals and so many zoning amendments and so many individual projects that the project as a whole has literally uh morphed all over the place and we've collectively lost sight of the project as a whole, making
sure that everything um works with everything. And if there's I mean if if I could just make a suggestion For those that are involved with the Pasco Connected City, it is far beyond time to have an actual public workshop on that project. Because when that project was originally brought to the Planning Commission and went to the the national level to
present and get its pretty awards, It was supposed to be a community that would make Lake Javita jealous. And I'm watching and I'm seeing a heck of a lot of warehouses and light industrial that keeps being put in these zoning amendments. And Warehouses don't look to me like the South Tampa project we were We were promised. They just don't. When when the connected city turns into two million square
feet of distribution space That tells me Semi trucks. heavy lifting and moving of things, it doesn't reflect in my mind the South Tampa vibe that was gonna make Lake Javita jealous.
Yeah, Michael just to keep things moving, if we're connected city if we can just table it. We're gonna talk about that here at length here in
I will tell you that some of your comments are issues that are going to get discussed in that particular project.
And we do appreciate you coming out today.
Okay, is there anybody else here for public comment on anything not on the agenda?
What's the right thing?
Nancy Hazelwood [address removed]. I wanna echo the gentleman who's up here. I think he has some Important points. I'd like to say it might be prudent at this time to put some applications on hold until we figure out exactly where that flooding would go. And to your question about what we can do, maybe we need committees together with Swift Mud and our county to figure out what it is, or maybe we need to not
develop in those places that we are needing. that are flooding right now. I know some of these places have flooded three or four times and that should be a clue also. This if you did that, I think it would show your citizens how much all the boards in Pasco County do care about them. Thank you.
Okay. Thank you.
I'll arm
rescue a for it. Lisa Mari, [address removed]. And I wanna echo some of what Michael said. Um it appears we keep saying every year this is unprecedented, this is unprecedented, this is unprecedented, and yet every year it keeps happening that it's unprecedented. I believe that maybe what we need to do is look at what is happening with our weather p weather patterns. It seems like we are entering a new cycle of weather patterns. I
know that they do go in cycles, although I'm not a weather expert. Um and some of the things that we have used as our ordinances and regulations and our codes are not keeping pace with what is happening with our planet. Basically. And when We were talking just a little bit earlier, you were talking with Michael about, you know, yeah, it's a hundred year storm, it's a five hundred year storm. He was talking also about people that went through Debbie and took a lot of water, and their house floated off their foundation.
And that's the right-of-way. isn't a cause of the hurricanes. We also are looking at, you know, yeah, the folks on the West Coast took it hard with um Pauline, and we took the brunt of Milton. But in between those two things, you know, it doesn't all get lumped together and we've seen the water trying to figure out how to get home and it can't find its way home because we've changed the topography, we've changed the way that water moves. If you look at it as almost like a capillary system, We've completely cut off a lot of the
capillaries. We're also Damaging our wetlands. Those are our kidneys for our aquifer. So we're creating tons and tons of problems because we're moving so fast. And so I would hope that you would consider recommending that we slow down our growth. I know I said that all throughout my campaign. I'm gonna say it again. We need to slow the irresponsible growth because everything's being looked at in as it comes to you in isolation. And instead of being able to see the larger picture of what's happening
and how it's impacting all the way around, We just keep saying, oh this project, okay, yeah. This project, okay, yeah. But we aren't looking at the big picture and that's what's gonna trip us up. So I thank you for your time.
Thank you.
Uh my name is Rodrigo Helveston, [address removed]. Uh basically the same thing, you know. It just seems like you guys keep building on top of places that are used to drain the water out and you guys don't think there's any correlation or what can we do about it when you know, we had two thousand four, there was four hurricanes in a row. And never freaking flooded like it did now and so It's basically the same thing, you know, just
like everybody's saying. Like are you guys gonna slow down? What are you guys gonna do? Like Yeah, it it just seems simple that You know, they've been building more in the past three years than the past twenty years and you guys don't find that there's a correlation with it, with the flooding. So that's about it. Thank you.
Okay, thank you.
Okay, is there anybody else?
Excuse me, Chairman. I just want to note we did have somebody signed up virtually for public comment, but they are not on. So I just wanted to note of that.