Land Development Code 47 PDD 210282 removing multifamily conditional use

1:58:45All right. So we've got one last item on the agenda today. Okay. And if I can share my screen, give me a s minute.

1:58:58Okay, so hopefully everyone can see my screen and uh This is uh we're calling it Land Development Code Amendment 47. It's PDD 210282. Uh this is basically amending uh chapter 500, section 526, C2. Subsection 526.3 conditional uses, removing multiple family dwellings as a conditional use. The genesis of this uh change is that on February 9th, 2021, the Board of County Commissioners directed

1:59:28the Planning and Development Department to bring forward a standalone modification to land development code, removing multiple family dwelling units as potential conditional uses in the C2. Just to let the Planning Commission know that the land development code currently allows multiple family dwellings in the MF1, MF2, and MF3 districts. That's not going away. That continues to be the case. And additionally, multiple family dwelling units may also be allowed through a master plan unit development district. Um, we're

1:59:58requir requesting that you find the proposed ordinance consistent with the Pasco County Comprehensive Plan and recommend approval of the ordinance of the Board of County Commissioners. This is scheduled for first reading before the board on the 23rd of March at 1.30 in Newport Ritchie. and also um for adoption by the board on April seventh at one thirty in Dade City. And I am here for any questions you may have.

2:00:27Okay. Do does anybody have any questions about it?

2:00:32Dinesis, Jamie Girardi. Um Just from a timing perspective. Is a conditional use or going through the conditional use process faster than going through a rezoning process?

2:00:45It is not. It takes the same exact amount of time to go through a conditional use process and to go through a rezoning process. The requirements are still the same, the timing and phasing, substandard road. The applications are pretty much identical. The only difference between the conditional use and the rezoning in terms of application is that the conditional use requires a concept plan to be submitted as part of the application, and a rezoning does not. You don't necessarily have to submit a concept plan. You still have

2:01:15to submit two signed and sealed surveys. There is also a slight difference or somewhat a difference in the price, which is basically that a rezoning would cost you $850 plus $20 per acre or partial acre, whereas a conditional use starts at $620.

2:01:35Plus twenty dollars per acre or partial acre.

2:01:39Mr Chairman Mari Pitos.

2:01:42Yes, Jerry.

2:01:43To add to Denise, the the other basic uh difference is also that on a conditional use you can apply conditions. conditions. You cannot apply conditions. Oh okay. Yes,

2:01:56thank you, Terry. That's accurate.

2:02:02And let me add one more thing to that, which is the criteria for approving and conditional use are Different than for a rezoning request. D different criteria in the code.

2:02:15Yes, that's true as well.

2:02:20Okay, yeah.

2:02:23I I understand what the board's direction here is and the way they're trying to go, but I'm just worried if there's any other um unintended consequences here by

2:02:35Moving forward with this ordinance, that's all. That was the purpose of my question.

2:02:39Yeah. And what can what is the real purpose for doing this? Just out of curiosity.

2:02:48Anybody have any ideas on that?

2:02:54Terry.

2:02:54Well, uh ultimate b ultimately, I um based on the conversations that were had is that I think the Board of County Commissioners wants to see commercial on commercial uses. Um and they want to they also want to see an inter integration of uses. So if the if the conditional use for the multifamily existed together with other commercial uses. integrated, I think they would prefer to see that. But what we're basically seeing on existing commercial commercially

2:03:25zoned properties is folks coming in to um add multifamily, but then that becomes the sole use is the multifamily. So the way the land development code is currently in the MF2 and the MF3 districts, for example, not in MF1, but in MF2 and MF3, you can have that integration of commercial and multifamily uses because the multifamily district also allows commercial uses to serve the multifamily community,

2:03:56typically consistent with C1.

2:04:01Okay. Any questions? Any other questions? All right. Thank you. I think that was the last one. Is that right, Denise? Uh very

2:04:14much.

2:04:15No, there's there is no public comment. Is that correct?

2:04:20Um, I do see that there are at least three folks still on here. So I want to provide the opportunity for those to actually. um comment if they wish to comment. I do see Barbara Wilhite is on here. Mr. Joel too is on here. And I also see Marcy Esberg from Community Development. So potentially those folks may want to comment. So

2:04:47Okay. If they do, they're happ I'm happy to hear them at this time. So

2:04:54Mr. Chairman Mariano Willheid, I I have something I could add.

2:04:58Yeah.

2:04:59We're gonna have the wrong. Here's a closer bow height, [address removed]. I'm not speaking on behalf of any client. I just want to make sure there's no unintended consequences here. And so I raise a concern And it has to do with affordable housing. Sorry. Over all the years that I've done conditional uses for multifamily, with the exception of the one that has been controversial. Um Wait, wait. Over in Wesley

2:05:29Chapel. We've all been done for affordable housing projects, whether that be senior or family. And so And what you see is over in the west side, which is you know, you gotta remember for those affordable projects they're incentivized and so they're only can go in certain locations. that is where you have a certain census track, a certain um population um At certain income level? So what you see over let's say for example on US nineteen

2:05:59is we have a lot of C two all on. We have a lot of ROR. And what you have to remember for these projects is what they really need is the land use category because res uh ROR has twenty three units per acre and mixed use, which you don't see as much of on nineteen, has thirty two units per acre with four. So they needed the land use and so C two is already located where that density is allowed. So my affordable clients will say there's not

2:06:30enough multifamily in land use classification, um, and they can't go through the land use change. They can't make it within their time period. So I I'd ask as as I I think I said I I haven't talked to Commissioner Hildebrand in a long time, but she always used to say let's not throw the baby out baby with out with the bathwater. I don't know if my concerns are are true and so I speak on behalf of myself only. Um, but I want to raise the concerns. I certainly

2:07:00don't want to see it make it harder for us to have some of these affordable projects. Because remember when they apply to the lottery, they're competing statewide for money to bring this project to Pasco, these projects to Pasco to help our residents. And so if we're not competitive because we have our own profit that makes it more difficult for these projects to be competitive, other counties will get the other money and their citizens will get these projects. So that's it. I appreciate you listening to me.

2:07:29Okay, thank you, Barbara.

2:07:32Anybody else there?

2:07:33Yes, Mr. Chairman Joel too, if I might have a moment.

2:07:37Hey Joel.

2:07:38Hi. Uh Joel to an associates, Palm Harbor. I only want to speak very briefly. I've been actively involved with this uh at the board level. Um I agree with Barbara. I I I think that the commissioner who who made the motion was very well intentioned, but I think With respect, I think that we're just getting in a little bit too big of a hurry. to try to do something in a knee-jerk fashion dealing with this

2:08:08multifamily apartment issue. I don't know if any of you commissioners had a chance to review the industry expert presentation that was made by the private industry at the commissioner workshop. But if not, I would I would suggest that if you have time, pull that up and look at the presentation about the market demand. And it's it's not only the Class A market demand, which is substantial, but also the changing demographic in Pasco County

2:08:39and the realities of the marketplace. Now, with respect to this particular proposal. Uh I'm assuming that it is for prospective application only, so that anyone that already has a conditional use application in. can pursue that. I don't know the answer to that. I'm sure that that David likely does or Denise. But my other concern is I don't know why, since since a conditional use has special criteria, as David said, because you can impose

2:09:09conditions on it. For example, the matter you just wrestled with on Barbara's other matter about conditions requiring a wall, if this were conditional use, you could have simply imposed that condition. In that conditional use approval, whether the applicant liked it or not, and said if you want your conditional use at that location, you will build a wall, for example. So there's actually some merits. I don't know if the board's problem is that you get to see the conditional use

2:09:40and they don't unless there's an appeal. I I I really I don't know honestly where where they're coming from because Certainly you have control. But my last comment is we're talking specifically about C2. And it's not just the impact of the pandemic on retail, but as you know, with online shopping, there's been a trem there's been a seismic shift in America on commercial retail. We have C2 all over this county, not just in the US 19 area,

2:10:10but particularly West County. We have C2 in less than A locations. We're going to have trouble for that. next ten years and possibly forever repurposing and filling all the C two areas we have, even at good locations, much less inferior locations. So conceptually I question why would you take away one tool you have? To possibly do a conditional use in an appropriate C2 location for

2:10:40multifamily. And if one of your conditions is, hey, it needs to be adjacent to other uses, it can't just be multifamily. Well, in the conditional use process, you certainly can impose that. And just because someone can apply for conditional use certainly doesn't mean that this board is obligated to approve it. Um so that's why I'm confused by the whole effort and I just don't want to let it go without saying anything because I can I intend to continue speaking on this multifamily issue

2:11:11because I simply think that the the direction that some people are trying to go is just factually wrong. Uh it's policy wrong, uh it's probably not legal, uh but it's certainly doesn't match the market demographics and the growth that Pasco County is having and will continue to have. So I I I I think you need to hit the pause button. My only suggestion is hit the pause button, maybe think about those things um and and and then go

2:11:41from there. Thank you.

2:11:44Thank you, Joel. Uh Marcy Esberg.

2:11:48Thank you. So I'd like to take a moment to introduce myself. I've never had the opportunity to direct to speak to you directly. Marcy Esperg, I'm the Director of Community Development for Pasco County. And I do want to add to the comments specifically about this in relation to affordable housing. which is what uh we focus in as one of our core uh portions of

2:12:19our mission here in community development. And I will tag on to the previous speaker and say that Pasco is a very growing county and Perhaps because of the pandemic, because of just growth in Florida, uh housing costs and rental costs are all uh exorbitant. And right now, under uh uh the eviction moratorium and foreclosure moratorium, our

2:12:49markets have become extremely strained. Uh houses are selling in a day, uh people are having a really hard time finding housing. I particularly doing a lot of work with the homeless and we have a housing surge going on and we're having difficult time finding rental housing for people that were paying to get housing and get them out of homelessness. And so any tool that the county has in their toolbox to

2:13:19increase housing, increase supply of housing, increase supply of how affordable housing is critical for our community. It's critical to create a balanced community. You know, in order to for our children to go to school, we need teachers. We need teachers, we need clerical staff, we need custodians in our schools. Those are all people that would fit under affordable housing. In order for you or I to go to a doctor or go to the

2:13:49hospital, we need nurses, we need laptecs, we need, again, custodians. All those people are in affordable housing. So many of the people that are in front of you or to talk to you from our county government all qualify on under affordable housing. So what we want to do as we grow is we want to grow smart. We want to grow equitably and uh and to me uh a tool in the toolbox of this A

2:14:21building and uh a mixed use, mixed zone building is a best practice all around the country. And it concerns me, number one, that the county would be going against what would be an urban land institute best practice or a best practice again all over the count country, but we decide to go in another direction. Number one. And number two, it's critical for the county to always consider any

2:14:51changes in policy, how it's going to affect affordable housing, either the amount of affordable housing or the cost of affordable housing. So I just want you to consider that part as well because our county, again, is growing, the need has exaspered exacerbated just in the two and a half years that I've been here. And to put a policy like this into practice into in place would only exacerbate

2:15:21it even more. Thank you for your time.

2:15:25Thank you, I appreciate your own. Input. Um So David, are you saying that uh if it's just a strict rezoning that we don't have the flexibility to or the county doesn't have the flexibility to impose certain uh requirements.

2:15:44So if it is well okay, depends how it comes to you. If it comes to you as an M P U D and some Requirements do come to you as an MPD, and and in those instances, you do have the ability to impose conditions. For a straight rezoning, you would not have the ability to impose conditions. However, As noted from today's item and other items.

2:16:07staff

2:16:08basically finds a way to do that through a deed restriction. So if they have specific specific concerns about a straight rezoning. They usually will ask the applicant to enter into a need restriction that imposes additional restrictions. So Well it's not A condition. it does effectively act like a condition, if that makes sense.

2:16:31Uh yeah.

2:16:32The big difference is that it's not imposed by the Planning Commission or the Board. It's really volunteered by the applicant to get an approval.

2:16:42Yes, I understand. Okay. All right. Yeah.

2:16:50Just to clarify, this Jamie's already again, just to clarify, conditional uses also go to the board, correct? We only approve special exceptions.

2:16:58That's correct. Yeah, conditional uses and and rezoning go to the Planning Commission and the Board. Stop.

2:17:07Mr. Chairman Mariano l re listening to all this and and you know agreeing with what Jamie's saying about that, I think the big issue here is the unintended consequences of possibly pushing something like this through so quickly. Because it it seems like it is being in you know, I don't know that I'm in a position today, you know, well enough educated to be able to to really understand that those unintended consequences and what that might result in. So um Yeah, I I appreciate the feedback

2:17:37of this Well High and Mr. Two, they're on the front lines of June a lot and Miss Ms. Esperg, I I think they're they're very well taken. So I I just feel the unintended consequences is something we really need to consider moving on this. Okay.

2:17:51So what are you recommending?

2:17:53So you're talking about affordable housing or the C two zoning that we are talking about?

2:17:59Yeah, I'm talking about the unintended consequences of actually proving this ordinance as it's as it's written.

2:18:06Well, can I just add one? Comment to that so If your concern is affordable housing, I'm not sure what your concern is, but if your concern is affordable housing, That could be remedied by still instead of removing all multifamily for as a conditional use. you could change it to say that only affordable multifamily is a conditional use. In other words, if that was your only concern, that's an easy remedy. You would just instead of removing it, you would change what's allowed

2:18:37to be affordable multifamily as opposed to All multi payable. But I don't know if that's your only concern.

2:18:44Yeah, I I think my my only concern was why would you want to you know, limit yourself in terms of what what you could do and to uh restricted development in a way that you thought would be beneficial to the to the community if that's if that's the result of this. particular motion. If it if maybe a that isn't the result. And that's what I'm looking for clarification for. If the ki if the commissioners, county commissioners can can do that and we don't have to do it. You know, that's fine with me. I just wanna make sure

2:19:14that I I just think it's better to have a tool. That. Where you can you know, fine tune some of these things rather than just Come in with a meat cleaver and say yes or no.

2:19:29And and I I did watch m the vast majority of the the board workshop and I I do hear their concerns. I know there are concerns and It seems like there's quite an abundance of of multifamily in certain sections of the county. Um and I I I don't disagree with that. However, to take something completely away just with a broad stroke of a paintbrush. when even if people do apply for a conditional use, it still has to go to them. They still have the option to deny the request for

2:19:59the conditional use. So that's why I I Personally, I'm I'm just I'm against totally removing it as a potential conditional use. Under the C two.

2:20:09Okay. Well, then we have uh a couple of options. Uh if we we have an option to approve it, we have an option to Deny it. Deny it. We all also have an option

2:20:21to

2:20:22continue.

2:20:24Add one more in Steam in. Technically on this item you're acting as the LPA, which means You have to make a recommendation about whether it's inconsistent or consistent with a comprehensive plan. So you certainly could. make a recommendation to find it inconsistent with a comprehensive plan. But it's strict it's not technically a approval or denial. It's a Is it or not consistent with the comp plan?

2:20:48Okay. Or I guess we can could continue it until we have more information. If we wanted to.

2:20:56So it's either consistent consistent or that's

2:21:00that's an that's an option too. I that it's the Planning Commission. But I'll let I'll let Denise and Terry Speak. Any urgency to this matter as far as the board's concerned.

2:21:14Well Terry, Denise, what comments do you have?

2:21:18Yes, Mr. Chairman. This is Terry Pito's Planning and Development. The Board of County Commissioners directed the Planning and Development Department to bring forward. this question um at the next available, I believe at the next available Board of County Commissioners. Um meaning Which meant that we needed to take it through the process, which is why the item is on This agenda. However they didn't necessarily specify Hello? And David, maybe you can correct me if I'm wrong as my memory

2:21:48serves me correctly. Um

2:21:53Yeah. If it wasn't on March twenty three Um, they would probably most likely expect it in early April.

2:22:03I don't recall the board giving a specific time frame for this. Um I don't know if you've had private discussions with the county administrator about it, but Um

2:22:13I my my only question to you, Terry, was if your timing's a concern May recommend Maybe that the Planning Commission just sent it forward with a recommendation to find it inconsistent with a com comprehensive plan. If you don't think timing's a concern, then we could continue it. Voilà. You would know the timing better than I would.

2:22:36Denise, any comments?

2:22:39Yeah, from my from my recollection, I was at that board of county commissioners meeting on February 9th. Um, basically what was What was offered to the board is that that is a simple thing to do. It's a standalone amendment. It could be done fairly quickly. Um, I'm almost certain that there was at some point we said that it could probably happen within the next 60 to 90 days. Um but we didn't We

2:23:10didn't state exactly what date it would happen, but Yes, there was a a sense of um And I'm going to use this term, but I don't think this is the real word, urgency or some some form of urgency. So it was important that it get done fairly quickly.

2:23:28Okay. So you say sixty to ninety days, so If we continued it until the next meeting would be all right then.

2:23:37Well we can say that. Some other members obviously have questions about it. And you know, I don't find that.

2:23:45I think we need to understand um to the pla to the local planning agency, the planning commission. I think we need to understand what we need to show you. um to address your concerns or your questions. Because I I know we can continue it potentially to the 25th, which is the next planning commission, local planning agency meeting at 130 in Newport Ritchie. But I think we also need to um We need to show you what exactly you're look you're looking for in terms of what can answer some of your questions.

2:24:17What your questions are. Easiest way to say that is the questions that were raised by Mr. Two and Mrs. Will High. Yeah. A the questions that we have. you know, are there unintended consequences that D are they taking away tools that we should actually be be using in the future that can benefit the county. Uh, are we is this a knee knee jerk reaction to something that we don't like? Um We did we

2:24:47I don't think any of us have any objection to to approving it if it's a tool that we've thought this thing through. We don't wanna just uh make uh And uh you know, um Just overreact, in other words, without thinking of what we're doing.

2:25:04So Mr. Chairman, can I just make a comment there? So It kind of depends on what you consider an unintended consequence because Make our board. does intend to limit multifamily. I mean that is an intended consequence of the Board of County Commissioners. Now, one might argue that they didn't intend to to limit affordable multifamily, and that might be an unintended consequence. And possibly even, you know, vertically integrated Multifamily. Um But if If

2:25:35those are the potential unintended consequences. Those can be fixed by changing the code to allow those two types of multifamily but still making all other multifamily not a conditional use in C2. So that's not a data inch issue. That's a we could fix the amendment to to allow those to occur. But other than affordable housing and possibly mixed use multifamily Uh I'm not sure that there are

2:26:05any other unintended consequences. I think the board, in my opinion, from hearing the conversation. Does want to limit what I'll call standard multifamily development in the commercials district.

2:26:20Yeah, I I know that. Uh does it also limit our uh ability to control landscape and s things like that that we buffer zones and Yeah, take us out of that.

2:26:34Mr. Chairman Mari If you remove the conditional use on C2, it would then cause a rezoning action to get the multifamily. And at that point you would not be able to condition. Outright. Um but as as the uh county attorney noted. Um there's the opportunity or the option to deed restrict. at those at those situations, but uh it's not as forceful

2:27:05as mandating a condition via conditional use. So We're talking about what's happening within the C2 and the ability to condition within the C2. And if we take that away, then we gotta go to other zoning districts. and deal with the rezoning process and and the limitations of that.

2:27:25And I would add to what Terry said is you this the Planning Commission has approved a number of rezoning to multifamily districts, MF one, MF two, MF3. With deed restrictions and specifically Some of them have limited the multifamily to town homes. As opposed to arguments. There is a history of of approving Multifamily rezoning with deed restrictions. You've done it before is my point. Okay.

2:27:54All right. I mean again, my my concern is not as much I mean unintended consequences, yes, is one concern, but Also I I don't I mean just the generic and and broad stroke of Eliminating the conditional use in the commercial zoning. I mean that Frankly they're In my opinion, there's areas that are commercially zoned in this county that Multifamily make sense on. I mean there's stuff parts of the nineteen corridor that there's probably way more commercial than will ever be used. Um Th there was the redevelopment

2:28:25at the mall, for example. Um so I I I mean, I don't know what what is the criteria for Um Stating it's inconsistent with the comp plan.

2:28:37So you're saying basically you take some of this excess property in on h highway nineteen basically in Newport Ritchie, that's b basically a a large building no longer used and converted into Apartments or housing or something like that.

2:28:54What I'm saying is is that I think there's a lot more commercial out there in light of what's going on in the commercial market these days. There's a lot more commercially zoned property out there than there ever is gonna be demand for commercial uses.

2:29:06And then to follow up with that comment then is to convert it into residential property or apartments? No,

2:29:12I'm I'm saying you le you leave the uh property owner the option for a conditional use. Look, the board still has the right to deny a conditional use.

2:29:19Yeah, but he could do that and that would be a use of property then, correct? A good function. Yeah. And alleviates the uh Housing crisis for uh for income groups are various uses. That's what I'm

2:29:35I'm saying. To answer yeah, to answer Mr. Gerardi's question directly. If you want to find it consistent with the comp plan you would have to identify policies in the comp plan that Exactly. System with Um I'm not sure staff's gonna be able to help you with that because They've been charged to bring this forward. So You'd either be on your own or Maybe Mr. Ms. Will Hyde could help you out with that, but Yeah,

2:30:00I mean, David, this is Joel. If if the commission sees fit to continue it, if if the county attorney's office is going to abandon the planning commission. Um, I'll be glad to provide those policies because clearly it's inconsistent with affordable housing, it's inconsistent with the urban service area and the promotion of density. I can give you a litany of policies that it's inconsistent with. Uh and I'm happy to uh help the Planning Commission in this regard.

2:30:31I'm not saying that I'm abandoning the Planning Commission to be clear. I do serve a higher master. So

2:30:37I know. I would just give me a hard time. I I get it. And I'm I'm not cons I'm not conceding yet that there are three votes on that county commission to restrict uh apartments in the county.

2:30:50Yeah. Well, I know David and I know he would never abandon us, so I'm good there.

2:30:58But Denise, from a perspective of education, I think you know the place to start, and I'd kind of started this and I saw a couple of my colleagues write it down, but is a the board workshop, the industry expert presentation that was referenced. Um, you know, if we're to continue it it'd be four more for me to educate myself on the issue and I think that would be a good place to good place to start. So my my vote would be to to continue this.

2:31:26Oh is that a motion?

2:31:28If you would like me to make an a decide motion, yeah, I'd I'll uh uh move to continue this item to um Let's see, we discussed. We're doing March

2:31:3825th or April 1st?

2:31:40April first. That's first at work. That's I think that was Brad's guidance, so yeah, that

2:31:45Ms. Jamie Giarddi, I'll second.

2:31:48Okay. Any further discussion on the motion?

2:31:53All in favor? The motion signified by saying aye.

2:31:58Jamie Gerardi? Bye. Peter Hansel. Roberto Saiz. Christopher Poole.

2:32:06Hi.

2:32:07Chris Williams?

2:32:08I think

2:32:08I vote on this. Oh come on. Maybe I'd like that.

2:32:14That's why he's working down there and he's like.

2:32:20And Chairman Charles Gray?

2:32:21Aye.

2:32:24Okay,