Five Two Rivers project
What the county recorded
This item is not from the published agenda
It is a stretch of the recording that this archive identified as a separate matter — a call to order, a recess, or something taken up that the agenda does not list. There is no official title, no staff recommendation and no disposition, because the county never recorded one. Everything below is inferred.
The source document
The county’s agenda for Planning Commission, Aug 5, 2021
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The county’s minutes for Planning Commission, Aug 5, 2021
The published PDF, as served by the county. This item is one entry in it.
What was said
Machine transcription of 29m of recording, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 59% of 153 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.
Okay. So let's see. Let's go back to five.
Mr. Chair, did you want to see a presentation from Staff or did you just want to hear the objection and let the applicant
I'd like to hear the objection and let the applicant respond. I think that'd be the simple approach.
Mm-hmm.
Yes.
Is it time for me to make my comments?
Okay, thank you. My name is Dulcie Lone, and I've lived at [address removed] in Wesley Chapel since 2001. This area floods when we have an adverse event like a hurricane or tropical storm, and even sometimes on an excessive amount of rain. Our properties go under about a foot of water when that flooding occurs. There is a current investigation in progress with County that was initiated as a result of myself and my neighbors witnessing unnatural behavior of
the water before Hurricane Elsa, and also because we noticed a disruption in the natural flow of the water. The natural flow which has now been disrupted or it seems to be disrupted is what moves the water out of our area when it does flood. The investigation continues, but a pump was found at the construction site. I don't believe any zoning changes should be considered until not only this investigation is completed, but also until we see the impact that the current development will have. Both the current construction and what you're
proposing here are being as building on areas that are both watershed and floodplain areas. Watershed is defined as a region or area drained by a river stream, a drainage area. And a floodplain is defined as a flat plain along the course of a stream or river that is naturally subject to flooding. I noticed that in the conditions for approval, there is no requirement for a civil or stormwater engineer to complete an analysis of how filling this entire watershed and floodplain area
will impact the surrounding neighborhoods. Why is this? One would think this would have to be. Done when we decide to build on a floodplain and flood-prone area. Without such analysis, you have no way of knowing how this will impact us on Mandrake Road, where I will remind you it already floods. I fear we will find out when we have an adverse event and our flooding gets worse, causes more damage, and the worst case scenario, the roads flood and we are cut off from emergency services. In addition with
the current construction disrupting the natural flow of the floodwater, I fear any flooding will take weeks or months to go away as opposed to the normal four to seven days. It is the responsibility of the County Commission to properly plan for growth while protecting current residents. This plan indicates to me that the County Commission is not doing the proper due diligence to protect the residents who have been paying. Taxes and contributing to this community for decades. In addition, this development will create unmanageable traffic on
Morrisbridge Road, which cannot handle the traffic that will be created by this monstrosity. This is going to create a very dangerous situation for the current residents trying to get in and out of our neighborhoods. I am sure that Morris Bridge at some time will be widened, but I am sure. Based on past observations, that it will be years after the growth is already here and will come way too late. You want the growth because of the money it brings, and that is probably all you see, which I recognize, and I
almost didn't attend today because I feel like it's probably a waste of my time. So I will just leave you with these questions. How do you know that there will be no adverse flooding effects to any surrounding residences? How can you sleep at night allowing this to move forward without doing your due diligence? For a change, why not turn this area into a preservation and municipal park or something like that? I know that's a crazy idea.
Yeah to ruin every natural area that we
Excuse me, miss. Miss, I'm gonna have to excuse me all the time actually.
Excuse me.
Is she not here? So we can't
Ms. Lone is y your time is up.
Until it is no longer a pleasure to live there. Thank you.
Uh I don't believe you've been sworn. I didn't have a chance to stop you long enough to swear you in. So uh if you would please be sworn.
I can't hear you.
You need to be sworn. I was trying to get your attention to get you sworn in, but I couldn't slow you down long enough to get that.
Well I stood up and put my hand up when everyone else in person there did. Okay. Great.
Uh that's good enough. So
you can swerve me in if you want.
No, that's okay. If you say you did, then we'll we'll take that for your for the truth. Yeah, I did. Yeah. Uh Okay, so uh Mr. Hobby, you wanna come and answer those questions?
Yes, Clark Hobby again. Can you all hear me? I don't think the mic's on very loud. Okay. Clark Hobby again. I'll try to answer a few of these questions. I uh you all are familiar with Two Rivers. It's a very large project. The county has planned for for over a decade now. Uh it is the largest of the three parcels that the county worked with to create a surcharge to build the fifty-six extension and to finance lanes three and four of the fifty-six extension. So, as a
for instance, there's $14.8 million of mobility fee surcharges from this project alone that pay back the loan that the county took out from the F DOT State Infrastructure Bank for the 56 project. So it's definitely doing its fair share. But let me answer these questions because I think we're all generally aware of Two Rivers, and it's a project that County really has been planning for and wants. She uh the as I understood the lady speaking, she was concerned about flooding in her
area, but to be clear, she lives on the west side of Morris Bridge Road, which is in the New River Basin. We are on the east side, which is in the Indian Creek Basin. So our water doesn't go over there. Our water goes further south and then will then joins into the Hillsborough River, as does New River, but it's outside of her basin. So her biggest concern we have nothing to do with. As you all undoubtedly know, there's swift mud rules and county rules that require us to make sure that we don't flood our neighbors. We
have some of the smartest engineers in the Bay Area working on this site, and I'm confident we won't flood anybody. And lastly, I'd just like to say, you know, we're providing a lot of infrastructure here, but when it comes to creating parkland, open spaces, and this kind of thing, there's a couple of important things to remember. Number one, this project, as part of this MPUD, is providing and cooperative. Working with the county to create an eighty-acre district park. It's one of the largest ones in the county. We're probably going to be making
improvements for the county's betterment as as part of a joint cooperation agreement. But moreover, if you haven't been around here for a long time, What's called the Hillsborough River State Park came out of this same landowner's property eighty years ago and they set aside, I can't remember, it was I think twenty five, thirty thousand acres for preservation and open space in the same area, the same landowner cut out of the same piece of property. So there's already been a lot of open space and preservation that was
occurred incidentally. My grandfather was working for the C C Cs that built the park then. That's the reason why I'm so aware of it. That was I believe in nineteen Thirty three. Happy to answer any other questions you have.
Oh
Morris Bridge Road. Morse Bridge Road, also. Part of the conditions, we've worked out an agreement with the county. Um there's a pipeline project that the funds, the mobility fee funds from this project are going to be more or less impounded in a special account, which the county will be initially responsible for using up to nine million dollars to four-lane Morris Bridge Road from State Road 56 up to Chansey Road, where the current four-laning
is coming down as part of the fifty four project. And then the area south of fifty six we're gonna be making site access improvements on, but we're also dedicating a lot of right away. So if the county decides to four lane that section in the future, it will have sufficient right away. David was there did that cover
No, that just wanna make sure you address that.
Yeah. Okay. Happy to answer any other questions.
Any questions from the days? I would Mr. Chair. Yeah. And probably not for Clark because this doesn't impact here. your project, but I know this lady said she was concerned about some flooding perhaps by some construction going on and that the county was looking to that. Does does the county have a any response to that? Or are you aware of any of that?
Is there any active code enforcement or stormwater enforcement action against two rivers?
Not
two
rivers, but I was just in general for this lady if somebody's
looking into
the
I guess that's exactly is there any is there any ongoing construction on your site at all?
Not on there's none on this site. This I I can only assume that the the lady is referencing construction and other projects. I don't I don't know which ones. There's several under construction over on the west side. I I don't know.
And that was my only question was does the county aware of any not four two rivers, but for any I
I've not heard any I represent some of those home builders. I've not heard of anything. like that, but I mean again I think your point, Mr. Williams, is a good one, which is I think staff should look into that to make sure that there aren't anything over there and follow up if there's a flooding issue.
Thank you.
All right. Thank you. There's
a gentleman that raised his hand.
Yes, please come forward.
Please come
forward and state your name and address, please.
Rich Dornado [address removed]. And uh my property borders two rivers.
And uh my concern It's just a person. I don't know why three thousand homes has to be is not enough for them. It's only one acre per home now. And as far as the water goes. It does back up from two rivers up across where Wiley Road is. So you got a lake over to the
to the left there as you're looking at it, and that back up to the northern end of their property. And it does backflow there.
Well it's not like it doesn't happen. Granted the lady's on the wrong side of the road, but I'm right next to her property.
Well they have an obligation to not make your flooding situation worse. They don't have an obligation to make your flooding situation go away. That's that's the difference.
I can appreciate that, but uh once it's done, it's done.
Yeah. Well I I got it.
If it's got a flood I'm gonna go say, Hey, can you help me? They're not gonna talk to me.
Well they they're
in the real world. That's all. That's all.
Yeah, okay. Mr. Chair, you should give the applicant another chance to rebuttal since you have to
exactly other other folks who want to speak.
Yeah, let's just make sure there's nobody else.
Or sleep yourselves.
Or that lady that called I'm sorry. I didn't hear what you guys said, but these things don't work real good. Uh I wanna echo what she said. I need your name and address. Oh my name is Troy Cruz, C R E W S six four two three tulip. Wesley Chapel.
Thank
you. Again, I want to echo what she said. As far as the drainage, uh and I'm in Uh Angus Valley. By the way, not the same Mary, but Angus Valley. But the same problem. They're talking about putting four lane or three lane roads to get back in there to that property. Coming through where we live. I don't have a problem with that. I don't like it, but I don't have a problem with it. Problem I got is drainage. Pasco County already don't take care of the drainage problem they got out there. And when it rains,
what little drainage we do have.
Sir, are you talking about this project or a different project? Different project. Because we're here to hear testimony on two Yeah, we're not talking about the Two Rivers project. Are you do you live near this project, Two Rivers? No.
That D512.
Really? Okay. We're taking testimony on this project, not not Angus Valley's. That's a different area.
Do you have something to say about this project?
I don't
Okay.
My name is My name is Jack Two. I live, I reside at [address removed]. My property backs up to Two Rivers Ranch. And it's very nice. It's quiet and peaceful and everything. My biggest issue is I was diagnosed with IPF, idiopathic pulmonary fibrosis. There is a flooding area back in there. I got assurances three years ago when they started surveying and everything. That was going to be a green area. Yeah. There
is a lot of water they collect. I build up my property along the property line to assure Then my house doesn't get flooded. My property, my house is about an eight hundred thousand dollar house. Which is uh I pay considerable taxes. I uh own several properties throughout Pasco County and throughout the southeast. uh contribute to Pasco County uh $28,000, $30,000 a year in property taxes. My concerns are that, number one, that the construction is going to create
a flooding issue with my property, that it might decrease the value of my property, is definitely going to deny me the quiet enjoyment of my property. Uh of course you're gonna have to have heavy equipment, you're gonna have noise, you're gonna have dust, you're gonna have where they burn. Whenever they burn, that is a health issue for me especially. I just got back from Mayo Clinic, so I was able to make this meeting. I actually cut my visit up there short by two days. I just want to make sure my concerns are addressed
and someone will reach out to me and give me the assurances that I need to know that I'll be able to continue to live there in a safe and enjoyable manner. Thank you.
Clark, do you have a comment?
Uh Clark Hobby again I I think I've already answered the drainage issue and I think we're all aware that we've got to follow the law on that. We cannot flood our neighbors, we cannot add to the volume or rate of discharge from the site from its pre-development condition to its post-development condition. Uh I am convinced after having watched the county proje uh plan for this project for many, many years. That it'll be a big benefit to this area and I actually believe it'll raise property values considerably. As
I said, the county's plan for this site for many years has added it to the urban service area specifically so it would be built in an urban style and to take advantage of the utility resources that the county has there and the roadway that the county's built and needs to repay the state with the surcharges from the project. So I have it's been as well planned as you can. Infrastructure is actually out in advance of this of the development, which is what we'd all like to see. So there's a lot to
like here. And just one last thing: if we were to leave it in a very low density condition, one the way one of the speakers would have proposed, we couldn't also be providing a 77-acre school site and an 80-acre park site, and many of the other things that we're doing for the benefit of the county that are part of the holistic plan that's been done here. So thank you. All
right. Any questions? Any questions?
Can I ask a couple questions? Yes sir. Mr. Clark, you indicated that Mr. How you indicated that uh you hire a number of engineers. Are any of those engineers stormwater engineers?
Yes sir, they are.
The the land, the uh elevation of it, is it basically flat land?
Uh no, there there
is
some s significant topographic change in different port parts of the site. Keep in mind it's over three thousand acres. So there are some areas that are flat. There are like everything in this area has significant floodplain compensation and the professional engineers will have to compensate for any impact to the floodplain. that occur here the way they do on any project by building ponds and retaining water back.
Because it's flat like that, you're still gonna if it stayed in its current condition there would be flooding up there. True?
I couldn't say whether it's creating a flood condition in its current condition. I mean that's it could be water.
You indicated that your grandfather worked for the CCC back in the thirties, which helped create the um
Those Bar River State Park.
Right. And and most of that water, at least in part in the it can they uh
Could there could it be seen? I'm trying to think of what here. Can't quite think of it. But I'm trying to indicate that the water would tend to flood towards the river, is that correct? No matter how if you look at it as natural state.
And by view development slang you're gonna in some ways probably reduce flooding. It's not not that's a would be a correct statement, I think, in many
ways. There may be areas that we do that, but again the as Mr. Girardi and other people on the Planning Commission know, the legal tests we must meet is we can't increase the rate or of discharge or the volume of discharge from the pre-development condition which we're in now. Yeah.
Thank you.
Okay. Any other questions?
No, that's it, right?
Thank you.
And uh I guess you'll make uh yourself available, Clark, if they have other questions outside this meeting.
Okay. There's a couple hands that went up, Mr. Chair.
No, I'm sorry, you only get one bite at the apple. So there's somebody else that'd like to speak?
Okay, okay.
Okay, we're we're trying to get all the questions up here before Mr Hobby comes up, so this is the last opportunity. If you wanna speak Raise your hand. No, you can't come back up. You've had your ch opportunity.
Good afternoon, Commissioner. My name is Sean Donnelly. Address is 5401 West Kennedy Boulevard, Suite 1030, Tampa 33609. As a way of introduction, I am the trustee and the owner of the property directly south of the project at issue here on the Hillsborough County side. My property is runs from Morris Bridge Road about approximately halfway back. And then Hickory Hills owns from there to 301 over. Of note on this property is that there is
the only existing roadway that connects 301 to Morris Bridge Road. It is a dirt road, privately owned and maintained by both County Line Crossing, which is the trust that owns the property, and Hickory Hills. Uh we've been talking a lot about here about the flooding issues and you say that there's not an issue. I can tell you for a fact there is. Tico is a
Excuse me, we didn't say there wasn't a flooding issue. All we said was by developing it they can't make it worse.
They're not allowed to.
Example to want
you
to
switch
my words around. I didn't, I wasn't referring to what you said. However, the very southwest corner, abutting Morris Bridge Road, there was a small um sub-uh station for Tico. When that was installed, there was concrete base and then obviously the mechanisms put on top. Since then, the runoff from that has flooded my project. property and has come up and over the road. And that's on a small square, I don't know exactly how many square foot put foot print that that is. However,
you're talking about putting in 6,400 residential units and almost 7 million square feet of industrial and retail space. And what the plan doesn't mention anywhere in here is how much concrete that's going to be. The plan does on page 16 allows 75 to 85 percent coverage of each lot that's set forth here. If this one little lot is causing flooding already on my property, what is the 75 to 85 percent going to do with this? Um The page ten
of the packet is very vague in that it says developer is responsible for appropriate and sufficient drainage slash retention and floodwater mitigation, but it doesn't indicate where their location is going to be. It's to be determined. For all I know, you can put all of those ponds right next to my property and when they overflow, heck with it, I'm underwater. I got waterfront property, that's great, but not the kind that's gonna help. Am I limited to that time?
We got one minute
left. Okay. Second of all, um the what hasn't been mentioned yet is the additional runoff is going to result from the expansion of uh state road, uh I'm sorry, of uh Morris Bridge Road from two lanes to four lanes. That fourth lane that is um on the east side of Morris Bridge Road is going to directly dead-end into my property. Yeah. When that happens, you're gonna create a bottleneck. You're gonna go from four lanes down to two lanes on Moore's Bridge Road. For Pasco County, it doesn't matter because that's only about a quarter
mile to a half mile between 56 and the county line. However, from county line down to the next turnoff, which would be Cross Creek Boulevard, it's almost a mile. And then if you want to go east, you have to go all the way down to where the I-75 entrance is and And that's many miles in order to get over to 301 or to Bruce V Downs. Uh there's no mention of turn lanes being installed, there's no mention of traffic lights in here. And this is gonna have a tremendous effect on well
Okay. All I was going to say is that um Directly caddy cornered to this, you've got MI Homes and I know it's not in your jurisdiction. However, there are nineteen hundred homes over there. that are right on the Pasco Hillsboro border. When this bottleneck comes down to two lanes, you're going to impact their ingress and egress as well as um emergency response time for City of Tampa police fire EMTs. Uh there's
Sir can I ask you a question? 'Cause I'm not clear on your comment. So I think what Mr. Hobby said is that the county's only four laning the road from fifty-six north. We're not there's not going to be any four laning south of State Route 56. So you keep talking about the transition of from four lanes to two, that transition is gonna occur farther north of State Route fifty-six. Not where your property is.
I understand that that but there is um reservation for the uh right of way in there that was mentioned in the packet. I don't have the specific citation.
But the county has no immediate plans nor did the developer have any plans to Four lane at south of State Route 56.
Okay. Given that, if you look at the diagram showing the concentration of use on Morris Bridge Road, you'll see that almost exclusively along Morris Bridge Road is going to be the com uh the commercial uses, stores and that kind of thing. So you're gonna take all of these cars that are going to be coming up into this off of a two-lane road and they're going to be turning off. Backing up traffic. Even if it doesn't go to four lanes, all of the commercial is on that side of the road. Um, my biggest again, and I'm not
against development, I'm not here to speak.
I'm being really generous with you.
I apologize. I would simply want you to know that I'm not here necessarily speaking out, but I think there are certain things that have not been adequately addressed at this point that's to be determined for the runoff. And the stormwater and the drainage, that just isn't satisfactory.
Well that
was done by Tico, Tampa, wasn't it?
It was, but it well, it's it was done it's done in Pasco County though.
Well, it's done in Pasco County. County, but you know, Tico is out of out of Hillsborough County.
And I'll just make one last quick sentence is that um there was mention of a reservation of rights for um future use in the event that uh County Line Road is extended. And my question was: has uh either the Planning Commissioner the Board of County Commissioners reached out to the city of Tampa or Hillsborough County to find out about the expansion of County. Line Road, I think it would provide a tremendous amount of ingress and egress both for the development that's coming as well as for anyone coming up Morris Bridge Road into that traffic. It
would be a way for them to get over to 301 or to Bruce B. Downs. It would also relieve a lot of the ingress and egress problems for the MI homes. So with that in mind, um I just wanted to put my two cents worth it. Thank you for your time.
Thank you.
Any questions or comments? You're gonna have to give the applicant rebuttal again. I know this is awkward that we're doing this.
Okay of that speaker.
I'm sorry, Commissioner, and I'll try to keep this brief. Um the for just four-year benefit with regard to County Line Road, we talked about this when it came to Planning Commission previously during the the changes to the comprehensive plan and the highway vision road network. And so I'm just reminding you more than anything. So the applicant owns the property to the south in Hillsborough County that's part of a plan development project there already. And they're showing access through that site, getting all the way to 301 from
Oris Bridge Road. So the way the conditions work is we'll either Use that connection and and the county will require us to do so or we have to then come back and provide the connection through this project and their conditions in there to ensure that we don't end up in the mess that ended up in K-Bar on the Hillsborough County side. So that's why David worked that language out with us to to take care of that issue. And then let's see just again for you. Benefit on a large project
like this, it's highly unusual to think that you're going to do an access management analysis on every roadway. It's over 3,000 acres. So as with many large projects, the access management analyses will be done at the time of development as well as the engineering. That's when we'll address all the drainage concerns and all that kind of stuff. Thank you.
Clark, my question I guess I don't know if it's for you or Jessica, but was this MPD submitted to our stormwater department for comments? Yes, sir.
Jessica Cole with the Planning and Development Department. This project was submitted to our stormwater review division for review, and they provided the standard comments that exist in our land development code pertaining to floodplain mitigation and all stormwater detention ponds that are created with the project.
So did they recommend any special conditions for this project because of historical flooding? No, sir. Okay, that answered my question.
Thank you.
Mm. Okay.
So there's no questions for the day as it's a guy or a motion.
I'll make a motion to approve PC five.
Okay, we have a motion. Do we have a second? A second. All in favor of the motion signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed, like, signed. Motion carried.
Mm-hmm.