PC12 PDE 25-0062 CPA 24-11 ADU text amendment

1:58:41Alright, everybody good? Need a break? Push through? Alright, let's go to PC twelve.

1:58:57All right, Amy Tall, Planning Development, Economic Growth. The item before you is PDE twenty five-0062. It is a comprehensive plan map amendment to uh or oh I'm sorry. I thought we were doing this one first. My fault. One moment.

1:59:14Mm-hmm.

1:59:19I thought we were doing rural areas first. Okay, um so this is actually the uh PDE 25-0062. It is a comprehensive plan text amendment in the name of CPA 24-11 uh ADU text amendment. So again, this is a text amendment to the comprehensive plan. We are proposing a text amendment to Chapter 2, Appendix Section Flu A6, Chapter 6, and the Glossary, to add provisions that allow for accessory dwelling units within

1:59:49the comprehensive plan. Again, proposes are changed to Chapter 2 and Chapter 6, the glossary. Here's a visual representation of what's being proposed in the ordinance. Essentially, we're adding the red underlined language within section flu A6, which allows for accessory dwelling units to be permitted, but they will not be counted towards density. So that's the intent of that language.

2:00:19Additionally, in all of the applicable future land use classifications, we've added accessory dwelling units may be considered. So it opens that door up to enable accessory dwelling units within any future land use classification that allows for single family detached units.

2:00:38So Amy, just a question is The details under the detailed circumstances under which we would allow these will be in the land development code?

2:00:47Correct. So the intent of this is to act as a companion with a uh L D C A that will be presented to you in January. Okay.

2:00:59We are also updating policy HSG 2.1.5 accessory units. Previously it stated Pasco County shall explore new alternatives to create affordable housing opportunities such as accessory units in residential zoning districts and within mixed-use projects. We are proposing the language to now read in order to create additional and affordable rental living opportunities. And to provide greater flexibility for homeowners, accessory dwelling units shall be permitted in flu categories that allow

2:01:29single family residential development subject to regulations designed to limit impacts and protect neighborhood character.

2:01:39Additionally, in your packet, we currently have the proposed definition in the comprehensive plan glossary. However, after further discussion, there was some clarification that needed to be presented with respect to quote-unquote independent units. So, this is the alternative that we would like to propose instead. We are updating or kind of further clarifying the glossary intent to read dwelling units are

2:02:09not the primary dwelling unit, but are contained within, attached to, and/or detached from a single-family dwelling in the same zoning lot. Again, uh ADUs will also be further defined in the proposed LDCA that will be coming to you in the new year.

2:02:26Amy just one question. When you refer to the same zoning lot, I'm assuming that means It can't be the the accessory dwelling unit cannot be subdivided from the primary dwelling unit?

2:02:40I believe that is the intent, yes.

2:02:42Okay.

2:02:44Amy, I have some questions.

2:02:46Okay.

2:02:47So When I read the proposed amendment to each of the flu categories that allows for single family development, it says accessory d dwelling units may be considered.

2:03:02Correct.

2:03:03But when I get down here to the housing element I'm sorry 'cause I'm scrolling down here. Can you put that back up? This says they shall be permitted in flu categories that allows there's a big difference in my mind between may be considered and shall be permitted.

2:03:21That's that's a fair point. Um I think so in the intent of the policy, we are ensuring that it is permitted, um, but we We could align it with May. May might make a little bit more sense here.

2:03:37Next case coming up is where we have a conundrum in the comp plan too, and this appears to create one.

2:03:42Right. Um yes, the intent is to allow for AD use to occur in the future land use classifications. Um it's not a requirement.

2:03:52Well but this what I

2:03:58So I think I think it's a simple solution if you change the shell to May. Yes. It probably solves the problem. Unless Terry do you have

2:04:06Yeah, Nektaria speaks on applying development economic growth. The the flu category is broader than the policies. So if if a development comes in and decides under that flu to put in ADUs. Okay, they made this decision. The ADU therefore shall be permitted Permitted.

2:04:27Ter I still think May would be better. I mean 'cause my understanding f and I don't I've not been involved in the details of these regulations, but I heard there was some possibility that some of them might be special exception uses in certain circumstances and so That's more of a discretionary approval, so it probably shouldn't say shall. If if if the or if the board decide to make them special exception uses in certain areas. So so uh I think and to be consistent with the other language I think it would just be better to change Child

2:04:58of May, I don't think it hurts you in any way. You're still saying that they're They're allowed in all in all single family residential Development. It can be allowed, but Well shall is a kind of a strong word. I mean it makes it sound like you have There's never going to be any discretion and I I just think I think Mr. Mooney raises a good point that it sounds more discretionary in the other policies and it's probably better just to change your child de May here.

2:05:29The other question, I don't know, maybe. Whether I should be asking Amy or Terry or both of you. The idea that accessory dwelling units will not count towards the density. What's the rationale for that?

2:05:48But let me elaborate further. The reason we Make it evaluations and limitations on density is because density has effects. Density increases traffic, density increases demand on the potable water system, creates more wastewater, requires other additional For instance, we had the sheriff in here during the last meeting who says for every

2:06:18400 new dwelling units he needs another two deputies. So there are demands of our infrastructure that are created by the addition of dwelling units. And I'll give you an example. So a sewage pumping station in a subdivision. That's designed to accommodate the number of houses that are designed in that subdivision. So let's

2:06:49say I go into Gulf Harbors. This is one built what 60s and 70s. The sewage pumping stations and Gulf Harbors were designed to accommodate the number of lots in Gulf Harbors. Now all of a sudden Forty or fifty percent of the people in Gulf Harbors decide to close in their garage or build on an accessory dwelling unit and I have all that additional sewage flow going to pump stations which weren't designed to accommodate it. I have additional impervious

2:07:19surfaces creating stormwater runoff running into infrastructure that was never designed to handle that. So I'm not sure that not counting it towards the density

2:07:32So I might build a hookdrop on this one.

2:07:36Part of the problem is that they're and there there's I think staff was intentional the way they wrote this. This is subject to regulations designed to limit impacts. Okay, so what you're talking about are impacts and my understanding is these ADUs are still gonna pay all applicable impact fees, all right?

2:07:55And and the land development code will have criteria where you could address those impacts. The problem with you saying It affects density, is you might force somebody to have to do a comprehensive plan amendment just to get an ADU and We actually had a case of recently um Where somebody actually had to change the entire boundaries of the rural care the rural protectioner and add a unit, just add a single unit. I mean, so Part of the reason we talk about affordable housing, part of

2:08:25the reason we have an affordable housing issue is all the process you have to go through to get an additional review. And so I think staff is sensitive to your concerns about impact, which is why this language says we're going to create criteria in line development code to address those impacts. But I don't think we want to force Mrs. Smith to go have to go get a comp plan amendment.

2:08:45I would agree with you. I don't want to force Mrs. Smith to get a comp plan amendment. But if um Buying a 500-acre tract with a res 9, a res twelve land use.

2:09:01all of a sudden I can put two residential units on each lot. And actually I don't see any limitation here. There could be three or there's no limitation on the number of accessory dwelling units on a lot. in this plan, so all of a sudden res nine is actually res eighteen. Well I mean or res twenty four is res forty eight. Well I'm sorry, Res twenty four probably doesn't allow for the single family, but the But the res nine or res six becomes res twelve by default.

2:09:30Well but I think you have the land envelopment code that's coming along where that step you could put a land envelopment requirement there wouldn't be more than one additional accessory unit for each lot. And so The land of you can use the land development code to protect the these concerns that you're raising Th if you don't do something in the comm plan though, in theory, that one unit they're adding could put them from Res three to res four, and now you're making somebody have to go amend the component to get res six to add a single accessory

2:10:00dwelling unit.

2:10:03I mean I I I understand your concern, but I'm not sure why it can't be addressed in the Land Development Code.

2:10:09Good. And we're currently working on a land development code um to to back this or to implement these changes in my conference.

2:10:18And I don't want you to take my questions wrong. I will tell you that in general I support the idea of allowing accessible dwelling units subject to regulations designed to limit impacts and protect neighborhood character.

2:10:37there are a lot of people who need to because of the cost of housing there are a lot of people who need to house their college age kid, they need to bring in their elderly parents. I will tell you that in my own neighborhood, 90% of the properties surrounding mine have illegal ADUs that consist of everything from a pre-made shed that you can buy on

2:11:08the side of the road with a window air conditioning unit put into it to RVs and campers, old mobile homes that just show up. I've even seen people buy RVs and campers and then build structures around. I'm an amazing that I'm amazed that a code enforcement officer can drive by that every day and not see it, because you can clearly see it from the road. But so I understand that there's some need for this.

2:11:37I am I have some concern that we could create density in places we don't necessarily want to create density, but I I hear David. It would I to me it would be helpful if we had the proposed land development code amendments to go along with consideration of comp plan amendments. But in general I'm not opposed to the idea of an

2:12:00ADU. And my recommendation would be if there are areas of the county where we think we should have heightened sensitivity to ADUs. It may be a situation where you say in those circumstances it requires a special exception approval or it has to come through some public process. No, you gotta be careful with that because even that's a cumbersome Process for a lot of people. But if it's really a scenario where you think this needs heightened protection, we can say in that circumstance it

2:12:30needs some special exception or conditional use.

2:12:45Primary unit on lot, and then we have accessory structures on lots. Generally we think of those as sheds, pool decks, pool cages. There's an accessory dwelling unit that's detached, an accessory structure. In other words, can my neighbor now build an accessory dwelling unit five feet from my property line when his setbacks Would otherwise be fifty feet in my neighborhood?

2:13:14So so those are all things that will be addressed in the land development code.

2:13:25I I I do think that staff really all they're trying to do with this is make sure that Well

2:13:29I understand we're trying to pave the way. I said I would feel more comfortable and I didn't say I'm gonna vote against this today by any means. I'm asking some questions and I I'm hoping to hear from the colleagues up here how they feel about this too. Just that was some thoughts on density. I don't think Dead. Additional density comes without impact. And I don't want to Rush into something and have a bunch of un unintended

2:13:59consequences for something that I actually think is potentially a good idea. Anyways, you've answered the questions. Thank you.

2:14:08Anything else from up here?

2:14:11We excuse me Mr. Chair, we do have public comment. Okay. We do have people registered.

2:14:17Okay.

2:14:19Now take public comment.

2:14:22So the first one that I have on the list is Nancy Hazelwood.

2:14:31Thank you, Chris.

2:14:37Nancy Hazewood [address removed]. I'm on record too. Um All right, so I'm I've been reading through this Planning Commissioner Jenna memorandum. My first question is, how's this play out in the Northeaster area? And um so one of the things I'm reading are benefits. They offer f flexible living solutions, help maximize property use, and can be a source of rental income for homeowners. Well I

2:15:08can just see somebody wanting to put up more than one on their property, especially if they've got like a ranch, three or four. You know, how's that gonna work? Um it says on uh after that it says encourage infill development. Well, so you got a green space, you can infill it with these? Now I like them, but I would like to see one on one acre. something that lets the land out, especially in the Northeast

2:15:38Rural. Maybe you can make it like that in the Northeast Rural area plan. Uh Also

2:15:49Policy 1010.3 residential compatibility transition. Encouraging clustering is appropriate to limit impacts of residential development on adjacent agricultural open space. Um it says that it would not hurt that area. I don't think it's gonna protect it in any way. This just looks like another way to add add

2:16:20things to the rural area instead of leaving the open space. So I'm not liking that either. And then underneath that the um proposed amendment to allow accessory dwellings. This is supported by policy one point one oh point three I don't see how this will not have a reverse effect. Um Mr. Moody, you were starting to say something about uh what

2:16:51could happen with the densities and everything and

2:16:58also that it would have an effect. You'll need more There'll be more traffic. And so that will encourage more amenities. These people are going to need publics, a dry cleaner. filling stations is along with the utilities you were talking about. So I I would like to see a lot more on this, especially I'd like to see how it's gonna fit into the Northeast Rural protected area. I

2:17:28think it's kinda scary the way it's written up. Thank you all.

2:17:33Thank you, Nancy.

2:17:36The next one I have on the list is Kim Brierly.

2:17:48Kim Brierly, [address removed]. I'm on record. Um I'm confused as to how an additional dwelling won't impact the density. It's a dwelling. It'll have density. I'm also confused about A lot of these places don't have parking already. people get tickets for parking on the street in their own neighborhood, that's gonna add to all of that. And as much as I think it might be

2:18:18a great idea to put your mother in law in the shed, mine lives with me and I I I get it. Um I just see it as a source for um it's true. I see it as a source for Airbnbs, which a lot of people are against. I see people's yards ending up looking like a campsite and it just looking very transient and Are these being permitted? or are they just having 'em dropped off by sheds

2:18:48to go and then they run some janky electric and then before you know it there's a big old fire in the neighborhood and I just I don't think we have enough information on it to do that, but I do think that it's gonna affect the density because it it has to. There's going to be people there, additional people. So

2:19:10I I want to address that comment a little bit about 'Cause Mr. Mooding raised a good point, which is that some of this is occurring already, probably illegally, and part of the reason it's occurring illegally is because we don't have a zoning regulations that allow for it. And so if we actually adopt zoning regulations that allow for it, it will have to go through a normal permitting process, comply with the Florida Building Code. And there'll be a process for these folks to add a properly permitted accessory

2:19:41dwelling unit. If it's not permitted, they're just doing it anyway illegally and then it becomes an enforcement issue for the county. And do we want to kick somebody out of their shed or whatever they're living? I mean so Uh, you raise some very valid points, but I think part of the reason we have these unpermitted sheds where people are living is because we're not allowing it currently.

2:20:02I see it for an opportunity for it to be taken advantage of. So that's where I'm looking at with the density and parking.

2:20:12That's their job as part of the Line of Elmha code to make sure that those regulations don't impact the character of the neighborhood and and whatever that policy says. That we talked about earlier.

2:20:23Yeah, those policies provide a pretty strict rule book for them so they have their hands full and they're taking notes regularly.

2:20:30Mr. Dutter right behind you is taking the lead on this, right? You're gonna address all these concerns in the land of Elemental Code?

2:20:37I don't have anything else to do.

2:20:39Thank

2:20:39you. So the next one we have on our list is Christy Zimmer.

2:20:49Christie Zemmer address on record.

2:20:53Correct me if I'm wrong, David, didn't we already go through a granny shed ordinance many years ago?

2:21:01No. Yes. The the only the only place there have been a few MPUDs um that have allowed for accessory dwelling units, but I do not believe we have any regulations that would allow some and just countywide regulations that would allow for these type of units.

2:21:21Many years ago this was brought up and it was called the Granny Shed and there was an ordinance involved and I want to say it was in the mid nineties and the restrictions were very clear and I'm looking at this and and again I'm not against a or opposed to an in-law quarters or you know a a dwelling of some sort small for your college kids or your parents or whatever along those lines. But I think that before you approve any

2:21:51of this, the land development code needs to be put into place as to what you're actually approving. And I think we're kinda maybe putting the cart before the horse because I'm looking at this and ranging from two hundred to twelve hundred square feet of living space. That's a dwell that's a house. That's a three bedroom, two bath house in Lake Padgett South. My concern is I'm from Lake Page Estates. We have no HOA, we have no rules, we're bound by the county. We're third two half acre lots mostly. We already have people

2:22:21who have built detached garages with apartments on top that are looking down into people's yards. They're housing people, they're using them for Airbnbs. Yes, they're illegal. I don't want the whole neighborhood to turn into this. And I remember that that other issue when we were talking about it, there was no income allowed on these dwellings, that it had to be a relative or extended family. that it couldn't be just open to the public and rent to anybody. But if you have a question of what this will turn out to look like, go

2:22:51drive through town and country and see what all those dwelling all t extra dwellings on their property and the impact of the density is. We're not you're approving these projects with X number homes, X number amount of traffic, but if you approve this, you just double everything and you need to put teeth in it that says one per property. Don't allow them to put three, four, five, six, ten on the property. That's not gonna be okay. And I think with some of those protections that are put

2:23:21in place ahead of time so the people know it probably wouldn't go against the grain so much. But right now this is like an open ended situation and the single dwelling unit then becomes a multifamily unit. So as a realtor, how do I market that? Oh I've got a single dwelling unit but you can rent this other property out and back. That becomes a multifamily dwelling unit. Not single family. I think there's a lot of issues on here. I don't see how it's gonna fix fix the affordable housing issue by no mean unless we all take in a homeless person

2:23:52off the street to put in there and they're not gonna be able to afford to pay any rent. But I think you need to put some more teeth into this before you approve it. Thank you.

2:24:01Thank you,

2:24:02Christy. Um the last one that I have on my list is Mike Foltereth.

2:24:13Michael Poltork, [address removed].

2:24:20I believe that we should support intergenerational housing. Point blank, we have to take care of our families. Not everybody can afford to put family members into assisted living. We also need to take care of our children. The rural district has its argument about What? Miss Hazelwood. Yeah. Ms. Ms Zimmer are talking about She kinda stole my thunder, because as a realtor I'd love to take you to some listings in town and country Hillsborough. All

2:24:50right. I know that area very, very well. And this scares me because this sounds unregulated and a loophole for It to be Exploited. And I'm gonna give you an example. I've been through plenty of properties there where the garage a two bedroom home. The garage has turned into one apartment. Whether or not it has a kitchenette, The home is its own unit. The Covered

2:25:22patio becomes a third unit, and then a shed in the back becomes a fourth. That is a density issue. That is a that is an impact issue. And this really scares me when we talk about for revenue purposes. The reason is We are all expecting the best of people. We are expecting the best of I need help paying my bills and so this way I can convert my garage, turn it into a secondary

2:25:52income stream to help me make my mortgage payment. That's fantastic. There's individuals out there that are going to invest in properties and as the property owner, they're going to put the ADUs in, they're gonna do the conversion, and then they're gonna turn around and they're gonna rent out all four units. And I fear for places like Port Ritchie, New Port Richey, and Hudson. where one driveway is gonna turn into cars parked across the the entire front yard four

2:26:22different what's gonna become transient housing situations being allowed unregulated And I'm very sensitive to transitional housing. Pastor, I'd love to talk to you about East County, because we need to do some things out there as well, especially for the homeless, okay? But this seems to me like it's gonna be an unregulated loophole that can be exploited by any slum lord out there, and it could potentially destroy traditional

2:26:53neighborhoods, specifically in West County, Dad. the current parents and grandparents live out there. They've lived there for forty or fifty years. Is it fair to them for the next door neighbor to now have four Potential. non-related rent paying parties living next door to your grandma and grandpa. That's not fair. And the impact portion, which has a significant a significant

2:27:23portion on this, is our schools and capacity. And if we're not going to include these ADUs with any form of impact, Occurring in the neighborhoods, we have a problem. What I would like to recommend is you need some of us from the actual population to come together potentially as a citizen advisory committee to help you figure out a streamlined way. Maybe this needs to be special

2:27:54exemption. But this cannot be exploited as a loophole for individuals to profiteer off of good intentions. Thank you.

2:28:04Michael, a a couple things for for all of you that were here today. First off, this is a compliant amendment. This isn't the Land Development Code.

2:28:10Yes, sir.

2:28:11Okay, that there there's further work to be done on this. If if this passes here today, it then goes to the board. which I I recommend you all go to the board to voice your same thoughts. Um but keep in mind this does come back as the land development code amendment that they mentioned still has to come back that's going to have all the teeth and all the the requirements that that you guys have all brought up. So Just wanted to make sure.

2:28:37But to his point, and it was the point I was trying to make, there's still this issue of whether or not we're counting it as density. And I understand the outside case that David brings up. But I'm looking at and I'm not looking at an existing neighborhood is counting the density. I'm looking at the future neighborhood. Hey look, I just got this property. I hired Barbara Wilhite

2:29:07over there. She changed the density from res 3 to res 9. And now I can have accessory dwelling units and it's really res eighteen. Or or more 'cause we don't actually know how many ADUs if that's assuming only one ADU is allowed on each of those lots.

2:29:26Well that uh all that goes back to the development of the of the the teeth in the land development code. So

2:29:31I will tell you on that point And some of these have actually come to the Planning Commission. Every single MPUD that we've approved that has allowed accessory dwelling units has said they do not count towards their density.

2:29:43I and

2:29:44And you all approve some of these, I

2:29:46wanna be clear about it. I'm not gonna say we're not and I actually didn't get into this, but I was actually gonna ask about there was an amendment to the Gateway Hub proposed in here. Is that a new entitlement for ADUs or is that one that was already 'cause I do remember I think some discussion on ADUs being allowed in a certain portion of the Gateway Hub. But I saw that that was one of the underlying sections in this amendment.

2:30:11I mean it almost doesn't matter whether it was gateway hub or any. I I've seen every MPD that is allowed ADUs. And I don't think there's a single one that has said that it didn't that it counted towards their density.

2:30:25No

2:30:25I want to be clear though. They all do say that they had to pay impact fee and by the way

2:30:30That's that's great.

2:30:31To his point about schools, we just adopted

2:30:33And are those ADUs included in the traffic study? When we're looking at the traffic impacts for that development.

2:30:40They're paying mobility fees.

2:30:41I don't care. But there's still the traffic, and at the end of the day At the end of the day. They don't collect those mobility fees until those houses are built and they're granted a CO. And what we're hearing from the public is there's there these people are driving on these roads that aren't actually going to Now we've we built all these houses. These people are all now driving on the roads and they've now paid their mobility fees to pay to build a new or widen a

2:31:11road, but it takes five to ten years to build a road.

2:31:17So Now we've put ADUs in it and we've made even more traffic out there that's using a road that may not get wideny to a sufficient state till five or ten years from now. And I'm again I would argue

2:31:36that any of these housing development we approve it wanna be clear.

2:31:40That is a problem. That's a problem of our system. But I don't want to to you know Make that problem worse By all of a sudden not counting the A D Us towards Density. And there may be some argument for this. But I'm just not sure on their

2:32:01That's all. What's what's the benefit of us approving a comp plan amendment ahead of an L D C

2:32:07amendment? So I guess I was gonna ask Jamie that question. Is the reason that Sir with all due respect you're gonna have to sit down now you're Um is the reason that the Comp Plan Amendment is predating or preceding the Land Development Code, is that because it has to be transmitted to the state? Is that why it's ahead of the Land Development Code?

2:32:25Uh yes. So this is a series of three public hearings. Um so you at the end in February we will be bringing the land development code and the comp plan amendment together. But this is three public hearings. So the land development code is proposed to be presented in January, which will be around the transmittal time of the Comp Plan amendment. The other reason for at least from our county attorney's recommendation is to ensure this language is in place to make sure that the LDC changes are consistent with the

2:32:56comprehensive plan.

2:32:58So so Mr. Moody, I I get your point, but I do think that if that shall is changed to a May

2:33:07There's really nothing that obligates the Board or the Planning Commission to adopt any land envelopment code that allows even if even if you say staff brings you a land abilment code amendment and then basically you hate it. Okay, or the Planning Commission hates it, public hates it, the Board hates it. As long as the compliant doesn't mandate these to occur I don't think there's any harm in adopting the comprehensive plan on that. It seems like It it can be allowed, it may be allowed. It'll be may

2:33:37be considered. That's effectively what this Complan amendment is doing. Assuming you change the shell to a man.

2:33:44Correct.

2:33:46So I mean the problem we have right now can we give the So let me just give an example, okay? I realize I'm using an extreme example, but it appears that even the public can who have concerns about this that if it's a child who's in the accessory dwelling unit That that should be allowed. Well There may be circumstances where you'd have to get go get a compliant amendment just to allow that. Because it's a separate dwelling unit. And if it's if that counts as density, they may have to go get a complant amendment from res three to res six

2:34:16just to allow their child to live in the back.

2:34:18Well explain that one, David. That makes no sense on his face. We live on an eight individual lot. We approve routinely lots that are forty five feet wide. They're four tho some of these are four thousand square feet. Okay.

2:34:35Okay. Well, okay, uh it's probably unlikely to happen at res three, but we're

2:34:39that's

2:34:40what I'm getting. What could happen is res one. Okay. Where I think it's more likely to happen is you got a res one, one unit per acre, they to add an accessory dwelling unit for their their child, they're they're stuck.

2:34:54And where my concern lies is, and I'll just cite my own situation, I live in a neighborhood zoned AR, that's one dwelling unit per acre. But my future land use is Res 3. Okay, so you've got a one-acre lot. All of a sudden I can have three houses on my one acre. by by flu designation. I understand that there may be a land development a pending land development code amendment that would restrict that. But that's

2:35:24not before us today. We don't know, we haven't seen that. Yeah. I think it would be helpful if we could see the the whole picture at once. And Although I understand the the idea that the county attorney's office says, Well you approve the comp plan today and then that sets the table for you to find the land development code amendment consistent with the comp plan. There are often times where we are presented with a comp

2:35:55plan amendment and a companion rezoning on the same day and we get to see and I actually wish that would happen all the time. But it would be it's helpful to see the whole picture. I even think that goes to some of the connected city argument out there. We need to be able to start seeing things in the big picture. In the big picture.

2:36:18So Mr. Chairman Mariano please? Yes. They really appreciate all the comments here. Uh we had not planned on facilitating a Complant amendment, but our our Council suggested as the proper procedure. I have reviewed the draft ADU ordinance. It's a working internal draft, and a lot of the questions that are outstanding can be answered with the ordinance draft. For example, we're restricting the size, requiring it to be a full-size uh kitchen unit in these in these uh places

2:36:49and uh maybe we can explore managing the population with it an ADU per square footage setting up some standards and there's only going to be one ADU per property we're not gonna allow or permit multiple

2:37:02ADUs on the property. So I I appreciate that David but see That's why I say it would be helpful if you can bring that So that we can kind of see the whole picture. Yes, that does give me some comfort, and I think that probably gives some of the residents comfort that have made comment too that at least you're limiting it to one and on the one acre property that's got a flu of res three you can't put three two additional units on it. That's helpful. Well, but there's this is a it's a new concept.

2:37:32I'm not against the concept, but I don't want to run headlong into this only to figure out we made a mistake shortly thereafter and then have to circle back. to fix and once some of these things are on the ground, they're unfixable forever. But that was but that was kind of my point.

2:37:52is that the compliance if it says May and if it says can be considered There's no obligation for us to do anything. It's

2:38:02I and I'm fine with that. My issue my partic my issue and I don't know where the rest of my colleagues stand yet. I'm I've probably been monopolizing more than my tie. My issue is about the density. I agree with you on the make.

2:38:15So um since this is a board priority project, may I suggest if the commission would entertain adopting the revised language to the comp plan to May, uh we could set up a uh workshop item at the next board agenda and start reviewing with the commission the nuts and bolts of our draft ordinance.

2:38:37Again, Mike I'm fine with the May. That that works for me. The bigger issue is whether or not the ADU counts against the dense the allowed density by the flu designation. I don't like I said, there's a if if we're going to allow one ADU per property, res 6 is actually res 12. Res nine is pot is res eighteen. Do I think every n every house in the neighborhood is gonna have an ADU initially?

2:39:08No. But to Mr. Pultorak's point Geez, I can tell you that my little enterprising mind's going along and you're exactly right. Man, I'm gonna be an Airbnb millionaire with all the little TED sheds I'm gonna put on my property and rent for five hundred dollars a a week during scallop season.

2:39:26So I I will tell you to me the reason I'm not concerned about this because I haven't looked at it from a devil's advocate perspective. To me the worst case scenario is You just don't allow these by right. You make them special exception, conditional use of verbals. I don't know if that's what Stapp's gonna provide. That's not

2:39:41what's before us today.

2:39:42I I understand, but to me that's If if that's the concern is that there's gonna be areas where this this could really cause problems, you could make it a special exception or conditional use approval, at which point they would be reviewed on a case by case basis. I'm not suggesting you need to do that. I want to be clear about that. But we can't do that in a

2:39:59comp plan amendment.

2:40:00But you could in the land development code. Well yes,

2:40:02I understand.

2:40:03But the And even on the density issue, you you you still have contact with whether it counts towards zoning density. I mean, that could be addressed in the land development code. I think the primary reason staff was doing this, two reasons. One is that They can't adopt an ordinance that's then found to be inconsistent with the Complan, so they have to have something do something in the Complet to make it consistent. But also to prevent you don't want to have a situation where a Mrs. Smith on a res one piece wants to add something for their her child, and she's

2:40:33now forced to not only Maybe she has to get a special exception approval, but getting a compliant amendment is a big deal. It's a very long process to go through. And I do think that most of the concerns that you're talking about could be addressed through the Land Development Code and possibly special exception process if necessary.

2:40:53W Dave if we approve this now, we do get that situation next month. So we or when's the whenever this there's this gap between if you approve this now, they're still not

2:41:03allowed, just to be clear.

2:41:04The

2:41:04land of Elma code unless the land of Elma code is amended, these are not allowed currently. Except for those few MPDs that allow them.

2:41:11So does this speed up the overall process of getting these allowed and regulated? If we approve

2:41:15this to be worse together? But it it stops somebody to have to potentially get a Complant amendment to get an ADU. But it's not o but it's not going to allow them as a right or anything yet because until the land of Oak goes right.

2:41:30the comp plan process is a little longer constantly.

2:41:32Right. Um and th so th I'm just trying to put all the timeline in my head. If it's we're approving this, there's this is the there's a process for this to get approved. I thought I heard we're gonna see the L D C's before the final approval of this.

2:41:46Well, I'm not sure you'll see the Com plan again. You will see the land development code. Yeah. We'll see the

2:41:52land development code before the final B

2:41:54before the Board approves the Com plan? I think that's accurate, right? Before the Board approves the Com plan then you'll see the land of Elmha code. But you won't the comp plan won't be coming back to you. Right.

2:42:08That is correct, Amy Toll.

2:42:12But I guess my point is is as long as you change the shell to May You are not forced to do anything. The board is not forced to do anything. It's just allowing it to happen if we come up with appropriate regulations for them.

2:42:27Yeah. I've also cautioned you that if you know when local governments don't do enough to allow for these types of things, that's when the state legislature comes in and says Just like live local or we get

2:42:43local.

2:42:43You know, that's when we start getting bad state regulations because we haven't done enough on our own to address the housing crisis. And so we I think we need to do something affirmative. Otherwise the state's gonna come in and say ADU's allowed everywhere. We don't give a damn what the local government is.

2:43:07This is staff's attempt and our board's attempt to affirmatively do something so the the state doesn't come in and tell us what we have to do.

2:43:16Yeah, and to echo David. So the flexibility in the language is what allows the LDC to implement that. So the intent of the comp plan is to set those guidelines that the LDC would then set the standards for. So that's where the MEI comes into practice where it still allows or considers an ADU in these land use classifications. But like Moody or Commissioner O Mr Moody uh sorry. uh said that it shall is more of a a regulatory

2:43:47terminology whereas may offers that level of flexibility. And

2:43:51by the by the way, there's a very good example of this we're with home based businesses, where the legislature just basically told us you shall allow them. It doesn't matter whether they're generating additional traffic impacts or whatever all the things that we talked about today, legislature just came and said you have to allow them. So my prediction is if we don't do something on ADUs we may be in the same b boat there.

2:44:15And since it's not a required component of the zoning district right now or the L D C then It's just almost like a a a placeholder until those standards come into place.

2:44:29And by I've also added that it's those kinds of horror stories that go that when you tell Mrs. Smith you gotta go get a compliant amendment to get your your home for your child, those are the kind of s horror stories that make their way to the legislature that causes bad laws to occur.

2:44:48Very good. Well I think there was a lot of good things brought up in the discussion today. Yep. Uh anything further to add?

2:44:55I was just gonna mention we're gonna we're speaking with the county um county attorney's office we're gonna be speaking with this about the schools and stuff just as impact so we're in conversation with them. Yeah. The other thing I w just wanted to say is with the with the L D C when it comes that I d I just don't see it when it is it comes to us and we're gonna approve it that same day. I do did we used David we used to do like the introduction of a m of of ordinances and then we'd have an introduction and or a You know what I mean?

2:45:27thorough sort of workshop type discussion of the ordinance if that's what he's offering and that's your desire does it we in theory could have a it could be put on this agenda as a discussion item before you're asked to take action on it. I don't know if that's what Mr. Engel is offering or not.

2:45:44I think it'd be a good idea. 'Cause I can't see us a it coming to us and adopting it on the same day. There'd be too much

2:45:50so

2:45:50to talk about.

2:45:52And we have had some ordinance in the past and I'll say parking is one example. Um

2:46:01yeah, so these they probably could have benefited some from some workshop discussion before they came to you as an action item, but yeah but I'll defer to Mr. Ingle. I wasn't sure if that's what he was offering or not.

2:46:14Yeah, well we are offering a uh An advanced discussion of the ordinance draft. We have a process called ordinance development team and we're we're bringing that ODT team, the draft ordinance, but we can do it concurrently with your review and your involvement. Um I'd love you know and I always I've spoken to Chair Gray on several occasions. We we think that we'd love to have some workshops with the Planning Commission so they can assist us in

2:46:41these projects. Let me ask this and make maybe maybe Terry you can point out an example if I'm wrong and I'm thinking about something David said. So my particular concern doesn't have to do with the May and Shell. I'm go I'm fine with the May. It has to do with the density. He points out we don't want Nancy Hazelwood's neighborhood neighbor down there that owns one acre to have to go get a comp plan amendment to get an ADU.

2:47:10If If Nancy's neighbor had one and a half acres, she'd be entitled to one point five units. Does that round up to two?

2:47:23under today's comp plan, not this proposed amendment. That's my understanding, yes. It does. So the only case where somebody would be forced to get a comp plan amendment in Res One to allow an ADU would be where they owned less than one point five acres.

2:47:42Well i if I may so the comp plan density

2:47:48Yeah. Um but they still have to fit the local zoning.

2:47:52I understand that. I I I I understand that.

2:47:55But it but it w I I use RES One as an example, but you could have a similar situation with AGE, AGR. I mean there's other component categories that have density limits in them that or it could be an issue. I I agree with you that it's unlikely to be an issue with Res three, Res six, Res twelve because in most of those cases the developers aren't using most of their density anyway. They're probably

2:48:17so then can

2:48:21I I guess what I'm trying to find is a solution That doesn't put an undue burden on somebody that lives in Res One or AG or AGR.

2:48:35but doesn't all of a sudden turn res six into res twelve. That's a big jump. Listen, when you own two acres and I've got one house on it and I throw an accessory dwelling unit on it, that that impact's probably not so bad. I'm more concerned about The res nine area. and all of a sudden that becomes res eighteen, that's an impact and I might not be out with a tolerator or a lot of people might be not

2:49:05but zoning can always be more restrictive than the complaint.

2:49:10But John, we're not impacting that with t this thing today. Right.

2:49:15It's that one particular statement that I have about it not counting against

2:49:21I mean i i if you

2:49:23a dwelling I'm just trying to figure out how is a dwelling unit not a dwelling unit, not a dwelling unit. It's an accessory dwelling unit, it's actually not a dwelling unit.

2:49:31I guess in theory we could change the language and say it should not count towards comprehensive plan density. Well I think

2:49:38the way I interpret it to me.

2:49:39Okay, but I mean but it

2:49:47That's all staff was trying to accomplish with this, is to make sure that

2:49:51Get it? I'm just telling you where I'm not comfortable with it. It doesn't mean I'm not going to support it either. I'll just tell it.

2:49:57Okay. Maybe at this point you need to get somebody to make a motion to change Shell to May and move on.

2:50:03Yeah. Right. I think I think we've talked about this enough. Can we get a motion?

2:50:09I'll make a motion to to approve it with the the change from Shell's May. I'm comfortable with the fact that the L D C A that's coming forward is gonna have all the str the uh the right components to to control it.

2:50:22Mm is for a second?

2:50:26Hmm.

2:50:30All right, just motion and a second. No further discussion. All in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion carries.

2:50:40We got one more item. Does anybody up here need a recess? Better be some strict zoning

2:50:45regulations when you

2:50:47point down.

2:51:00Oh that is

2:56:09It actually saves time in the long run actually. Right. That's why I see

2:56:26Good.

2:56:35Come on. All the Ron Oakley stuff?

2:56:51Well?

2:57:07you did have an item on set. Yeah, right. Probably and the board generally supports changes to industrial. So you probably didn't think she'd have to get up and let's say anything.

2:57:20Yeah, that's for sure.

2:57:22Uh

2:57:22uh

2:57:25Yeah, if she was gonna call something out she should have picked one that maybe was on regular

2:57:31Mm-hmm.

2:57:38Oh where did Liam go? Thank Well this

2:57:44last item is not the end, but the only one that we need is He had another we need. So if I don't t if I understand he'd be he can't make it in time.

2:57:55Amy, who's who's handling P thirteen?

2:58:01Are you doing P thirteen? Uh I just you know.

2:58:07She knew it was gonna go fast because

2:58:09she wanted to do it before

2:58:10P twel.

2:58:11I don't

2:58:11yeah.

2:58:13Honestly, I didn't think AV is just gonna go that far.

2:58:16Is is is is is is it P thirteen on regular because we're draw positions or

2:58:21Honestly, I don't know how

2:58:24Okay, yeah

2:58:30Okay, all right well I will tell you that the one lady there in the middle she's directly back and she's that's uh she was here

2:58:38last year. Oh right, right. That's right. All right. Are you ready to discuss? David. David.

2:58:47She's a good thing. Okay.