Sheriff public safety staffing and budget
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The county’s agenda for Board of County Commissioners, Apr 5, 2022
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The county’s minutes for Board of County Commissioners, Apr 5, 2022
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What was said
Machine transcription of 28m of recording, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 90% of 114 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.
Oh sorry. Okay, that's a P. Oh yeah it is. Okay. So now we're on um miscellaneous business. And um board members, I am gonna pull the sheriff up in front of us if you guys don't mind. We'll take him out of order and we'll have a presentation by the sheriff.
Thank you, Madam Chair. Madam Clerk, I'll make sure. Chris Knocko, [address removed]. I know everybody coming up that's been causing a panic scene for her. So thank you very, very much for uh allowing me to come up and speak. Um couple things, Madam Chair, I would not bring up your water issues anymore, no more stories for the paper. Yeah, you know a couple I just wanted to mention, you know uh For the record, I'm not anti growth. I want to put that out there. I'm not anti growth. I am from Philadelphia. I grew up in a row home. Uh there were fire stations I could walk
to, police we could There's more I could throw a stick at, but I wouldn't throw a stick at them because the paddy wagon would then pull up. But those are the type of things. I grew up in an environment that you know there was a lot of um people around, you know, with a lot of growth around. Uh, you know, I'm not anti environment either. Uh I love the fact that we have bike parts here that I can take my family on. I love the fact that we have fishing holes. I don't lose anyone like fishing holes either. So that's those things I just want to put out there. But I want to make sure that we understand as we talk about, you know, some of the things that are going on with growth and How it can
affect us and I'll give you this scenario. So picture Pasco County as a big restaurant. You know, it was a big wide o open restaurant and now we're putting tables in. And so when you bring the tables then you're bringing people into the restaurant. Unless we uh you know, increase the people to work in that restaurant, we're gonna fall behind. You know, the people in the restaurant are gonna get upset. They're gonna say, Where's my food at? You know, I don't need a drink of water, I need food. You know, so what we represent in law enforcement, public safety in general and you know, beyond public safety, a lot of your resources,
um, where the service and we're the service group in there. And so all I want to do is talk about how, you know, from a service perspective When the growth is coming more with the restaurant is getting larger, more customers are coming in. They want to get the service because if not, they're gonna be very angry. And they're gonna start pointing fingers. I wanna get there, I wanna address that before they start getting angry. So, you know, according to data And none of this data is ours. That's the one point, the second bullet point. This is coming from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement, Florida Tax Watch. You know, I mentioned the other day we are
64th out of 67 counties in terms of law enforcement officers per thousand that we serve. So what that statement is, for every 1,000 residents in a community, we are 64th in that ratio of the amount of deputies to serve them. So we're almost near the very bottom. And You know, according to Tax Watch, Pasco County is fifty fifth out of sixty seven counties in funding for public safety. You know, that's EMS, fire rescue, law enforcement, that's everybody in general. And the one point I want to bring up here, you know, this is from the budget.
This does not include grant hours. There was $110 million, roughly $111 million for the constitutional responsibility of the law enforcement, including court security. That's in the constitution. From the detention standpoint, we are fifty-one, it was fifty-one million dollars. And that is gonna be completely returned to the county, you know, as the county takes over the jail facilities. I just want to make sure that there was no intent at all. To touch at 111 because if that is touched, all it's gonna do is reduce our ability to serve our community. So on the second slide. It's
hard to see. I hope you can get um you have it in your handouts. You know, Pasco's growth population, um, we are well below, and these are just some of the numbers. So Penellas County. Is at one point eight six. Deputies per thousand residents. So, and you also have to take consideration their population they serve primarily is lower than ours. So they're at 400,000. We're ha at four hundred and ninety-eight thousand. We're at the very bottom down there in that yellow. And so they have cities like
St. Petersburg, Clearwood, or Largo. You know, you take Hernando County, they're at a ratio at 1.32, our ratio is 1.06. You know, they're at 200, you know, their proportion is much higher than ours. Polk County has Lakeland and they're at 1.26, and their population is around that they serve directly is 462,000. So with Lakeland, that takes out a big chunk. Okay. And in Hillsborough County, uh with the city of Tampa, their ratio is still higher than ours by a good percentage. They're at 1.23.
So right here, these numbers just represent, you know, if we're the same level of service as these other counties, to keep that level of service, you know, for Penells County, we need an additional three ninety-nine deputies, Hernando 130, Polk one hundred, Hillsborough eighty-five, you know. That's because our ratio is one point zero six. So that's why, you know, but these are all numbers from the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.
So growth and permitting. That's what I go back to again. I am not anti-growth. I want to make sure people don't know I'm not anti-development. That's not my role of responsibility. My role and responsibility as the sheriff is to make sure, you know, we do everything we can to keep our community safe. And it's also my role to come here and explain this to tell you, hey, this is where we're at. So for every 1,000 residents, Pasco should be adding two deputies. You know If 10,000 residents move in and an average of three people per household, that's thirty thousand, you know, we're looking at additional
sixty deputies. That's just, you know, to slightly go above where we are now are percentage wise. That would that is if you took a standard to that point, 2.0. You know, we're trying to just maintain the level that we're at. We keep seem to be falling behind. In in Polk County, the commission Just um granted, you know, Sheriff Judd went in front of the county commission, and above what their standard is, they're gonna start allocating 25 deputies per year. So they're gonna be at 125 additional deputies in the next five years because
of their growth. That's just and then they're gonna still continue to backfill their positions. The problem we have is, you know We're two to three years behind. So if a permit happens You know, by the time that permitted goes in, by the time that that person actually starts paying taxes, because we all know in January is really when they start paying that tax, and then that tax goes into effect. then we as a sheriff's office get it. Then it takes us a good over a year to hire somebody, train that person, put them through new member orientation, then put them on the street. So now we're about
two to three years behind about one person moving into that house. So when you multiply that out, that that we keep falling further and further behind. So that's one of the things I just want to make sure you know you're aware of as we're looking at this.
Uh I apologize, this is small too, but you have the other graph.
We can see it here.
You can see there, okay, good. All right. So this is this is the permits that we were able to look at. So the permits have been filed and this is generality, just want to make sure but this is the numbers that just to give a a good picture of what's happening. And so, you know, for the first eighty-four days of the year from January first to March twenty-fifth There has been three thousand seven hundred and forty five permits that have been filed. So just saying everything perfect you know, they all go through, everything's perfect filled world, that they get through and everything's done. You know, that would be an
average that we would need additionally, you know, looking at it's only two people per household. You're looking at 14 law enforcement officers just to maintain, you know, try to get that two ratio just to kind of go up. So that's just kind of inching us up closer out of that out of that 1.0 eight number, but it's moving us up a little bit further. But however, that's just addressing what is going on now at the permits. The other issue we have and and I I wanna say I thank the board, 'cause I think it was around twenty fourteen, twenty fifteen, I
was in front and you all saw the issue. That we were we had actually lost 100, over 100 officers had left Pasco County to go to Tampa. They actually called it the Tampa 100 Club. And that club was people that were in Pasco County trained You know, we they've been here for years, got experience and then Tampa picks 'em up. So basically you take a go back to that restaurant scenario, you take good, highly qualified chefs and They're trained, they're worked up, and all of a sudden another restaurant takes
them from you. Now we have to go back to get some hire somebody back to that year-long process. That's where we were. What um what is happening though is just because we started catching up and we never caught up to Record Tampa, but we are kind of the same ballpark as the other counties. They didn't stop. And now with the issues of hiring law enforcement officers across our country and across everywhere, you know, we're all competing now for people because a lot of people lost interest to say, hey, maybe I don't want to get into this field. We're not competing against other, you know, higher paying agencies. So
Tampa PD is starting at sixty thousand dollars a year. You know, I can go down the list, fifty-three, analysis fifty one, Pasco and F HP we are told that the governor signs and and he said he will approve it, they're gonna jump to fifty six thousand dollars a year starting. So Pasco right we're right now at 46,948 and we're just slightly above Hernando. I if this isn't addressed, which you know be submitting to budget is that you know well I want to be comparable, you know, for our civilian members with the county at the same uh rate I have to understand for our sworn law enforcement
members we're we're gonna have to be We have to do the matrix that you guys are, you know, worked with us on and I appreciate that. And I and our citizens need to n recognize that. You you did a great thing by recognizing that. We stopped that slowing growth of people going to Tampa. But We're gonna be back in that cycle again if we don't start addressing it and that is a major issue as we talk about staffing. So a couple of things just to hit on, you know. We must continue to fulfill our the constitutional responsibilities of the Sheriff's Office to provide to law enforcement services
and court services. I don't think there's any would disagree with keeping the current budget for law enforcement and court security of that $111 million. Is there anybody that I've spoken to everybody, I just want to make sure that everybody's good with that. That $111 million stays with the law enforcement budget and the $51 million will transfer back to the county.
Right. Yeah, we're good.
Well I haven't had a budget meeting on this, so I I'm not prepared to say anything about numbers.
Okay.
I yeah, I've been very busy the last three weeks.
No, no, I understand. Okay. But th th this is not an increase. All this is saying is uh no I get it. I just want to just put it on the record because we spoke, but I would make sure we I say out here too. This is so in the in the budget that we present every year. Yeah. There is a budget for our constitutional duties, which is the law enforcement and court services, and then there is for the jail. The jail budget is $51 million. Our services are roughly $111 million for law enforcement and to secure the courthouse. What
was proposed before when we talked about giving back the court giving back to jail is just moving that pot of fifty-one million dollars over to the county, because that's it's to it's to jail. If that hundred and eleven million dollars gets touched, And tries to get reduced. All it's going to do is reduce law enforcement services in our community. So that's yeah.
I would defer I think we have a budget workshop coming up.
This is not for next year, this is just for right now. No,
I
Oh yeah, yeah.
Oh for Okay, I'm confused. Go ahead. Sorry.
Yeah, Commissioner Yeah, they I know they're they're working on their budgets like we're working on our budget and we are Yeah, that's part of the the jail transfer, you know, our budget office is working there is to see what their expenses are in the jail because we have to build a budget based on line item expenses. So we're working on that. you know, I I would not expect that we would want to decrease so 111 million piece. In fact, you know, we're talking of how are we gonna split the growth going forward with the jail now back over the county and we're still working through those numbers. But I
can't imagine that we would expect to decrease it. There are some probably support elements that are in that that support the DL operation, but they're Yeah, we're work we're gonna work through that.
Yeah.
So I mean I
Madam
Chairman
Mariano.
So I think the short answer is I don't expect us to ask for any of that piece as we move forward into twenty three with the jail transitioning over.
Correct. Okay, Commissioner Oakley. Sure. I've been here since 2016. Since that time Your budget, I believe, has risen about fifty million dollars. Is that correct?
Yes. Well I'm not talking about just jail. I'm talking about your your total but well it includes the jail. Includes jail, yes. Includes the jail. But during that time. How many officers have you hired? To keep up Your officer capital gets one thousand. Right. And and
we mean
probably officers
on the street, not an administrative. No,
no, no. So so the issue we've had is one is that out of that budget, a lot of so twenty sixteen you hit it around the right corner. That was when we did the bigger pay increases. So pay increases added tremendously to that number. Then, you know, you have to take into account the jail. So the jail we were kept adding into the jail th th these are all part of when you talk about the whole budget increase that that portion, that portion includes the jail. The jail I forget it was Thirty million with the fifty only because contracts keep going up. Everything's happening. So patrol
deputies, you know, I can get you that number exactly. We're trying to hire th we did a grant right last year for thirty. But The thirty deputies that we're trying to get that came through that grant that paid the two years federal or three years federally, then it comes into ours. It's trying to hire those people on board. So as I said, we're about a year behind. So how many officers we are able to get on board? You know, we can break down those numbers, but I I just We'll tell you Commissioner Oakley at these e pay these increases, a lot of it is for contracts in the jail. A
lot of it is for hiring people, a lot of it is for salaries. So we're never able to keep and so you give numbers. So our numbers can compare to Penells County. I believe Pinellas County's budget is $190 million for law enforcement. Ours is 111. So when you're looking at, you know, with that many officers, that is the gap. That eighty something or I think is about eighty million dollars in there, that's a huge gap that when you talk about officers and you start putting people towards patrol That's where we can start putting people towards patrol. But
you don't know how many. Deputies actually hired in since sixteen. sixteen. We have we had to backfill a lot too, because retirements and everything. So a lot of times
you
lose
it.
Yeah no and I agree and that's the thing, Commissioner, it's a great the point that we are and I appreciate the point because it it's very valid and I think a lot of people this is a misconception I think a lot of people where you don't get it because I mean you get it because you do it every all the time. They think one is when we hire one deputy for the street, oh we're gonna hire somebody and they're out there. It's approximately five deputies for every one officer that's on patrol because we're twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week, three sixty-five. So when you say we have hired thirty deputies that we're able to get that through the grant, we greatly
appreciate it. That means that there's only one deputy per we have 30 squads. That means there's only one deputy, one new deputy per squad, which means roughly it's five deputies roughly on patrol for the entire county. During that shift, during that time. So we've for every thirty you've added five basically for patrol. So that's a very valid point. The other the other point is the salary and benefits, you know, and health insurance. We all know health insurance has gone up. And in and the rates for insur and rates for the uh retirement have gone up and Yeah,
the county administrator priced all the numbers. They're going up a high again this year. Uh very high. Those are those type of things that we take in consideration. So
They think sometimes, oh we hired a new cop, there's a new deputy out there, they're out there all the time. That's not. That's why how stagnant it is. So yeah, Commissioner, I I appreciate that because we can get you to numbers. We did shift people around, I'll tell you one of the big things we had to do, mental health and substance abuse was huge. We took people out of our narcotics unit and put them into the mental health behavioral health unit because we saw where we could be more effective. So I can get you exactly those numbers, um, but I'll tell you it's a very valid point because when people start realizing that How much money goes into the budget,
they don't reali especially your own budget. Giving your own employees a pay increase is absolutely high. But then they they forget How much money you have to pay for that pay increase? Because if you don't give them that pay increase, they're gonna go somewhere else. And if you're losing the Hillsborough, Penelas, somebody else, you've now trained them up, build them up, and they go somewhere else. So I think that's something that's often lost, but it's a extremely very valuable point.
The reason for that is if if you're not hiring deputies pretty much all the time. Right. Through attrition you're gonna lose some, through others going to other counties, you've gotta be continuously hiring deputies on and adding to that number as you go or you won't ever shorten that gap between us and another county.
No no and that's a great point. We're always hiring. I saw I heard the firefighter numbers, I'm like, huh, maybe some of them wanna be law enforcement officers. Um but But and that Eagle Scout he we got him on the way out. He's now yeah. He's got two years before he joins. But that those are those but those are those type of things that you're right. We're constantly so It it is a battle. So I can imagine when you need to hire somebody great for your water department. You're now struggling to compete against all other counties, they're looking at the salaries. Um, then you're trying to backfill, then you gotta train them up your way.
That's the same thing with us. We're constantly trying to hire hard we're constantly trying to hire new people. Now it's even a a tougher environment to compete in. So now we're competing. Now we're trying to just backfill positions. Now we're trying to inch ahead. And so this is a continual cycle that you're right, this is it's a very and and it's very dangerous when F H P says they're gonna start at fifty six. It's very dangerous when that when Tampa's starting at sixty and then they're bringing our people on for seventy, if not higher, who have experience and they're buying and the other one too is What you may find,
I don't know if you find it already. The 30-year retirement does not help county employees. or a recruiting for county employees, especially when they go to to the city of Tampa and have a twenty year retirement for high risk. And I'm not sure how this was to see, but that is a very enticing thing when you take a twenty five year old And then say, would you rather retire at forty five or would you rather retire at fifty five? And so that those are things that, you know, counties are struggling with right now as municipalities are doing a twenty year retirement. Can I kind of file on a little
bit?
Yeah,
question more. So qu Sir question for you then. And this is a question of me saying, okay, how what can we do to help in the situation? Okay? So you're talking about like In this slide it says growth and permitting. Gave some examples of um I'll just add the first three up, right? Um 410 single family, 440, 341 single family, 350 multifamily. Um we're Let's just round it down to a thousand.
Yeah.
Okay. So your statement is We need two a law enforcement deputies on the street. For every thousand. Right. So if I look here I'm gonna do my math wizardry for a second here. I'm gonna guesstimate I'm looking at about um thirty three thousand and thirty five hundred new uh homes or apartment units right here. So that equals at least a minimum of six new deputies to provide the proper service that you feel is needed. For
our citizens of Pasco County, correct?
So if you but if you average out, so um just s say it was a thousand residents. A thousand residents, a thousand um permits. You're averaging two to three people per, so you not multiply it out. So say it was say it was just a thousand. Yeah. Then you have to multiply the number by the thousand, not just by permit. Yeah. Okay. So we're looking at a lot higher, so
we triple that, right? Okay. Um so instead of uh whatever, instead of six, we're gonna we're gonna say eighteen, for example. So how can we help you or how how are you gonna be able to prepare moving forward forward, because these come things come online pretty fast, right? Permit, build I know we're a little bit high because of of the product and things like that. We're in a unique situation now. So typically maybe they'd be able to c you know, these would be up in six to eight months.
Right.
Okay. So how are you going to be able to, I guess, keep up with the Joneses per se? be able to hire that many people and train 'em and have 'em online in reality what you need to probably you need to have them almost in the weight.
Right.
Correct?
Yeah, no. In an ideal world, yes, it'd be, you know, it it's just like um uh any other service you want them right as soon as they walk in the restaurant you want to have the waiters there, the people ready to go to cooks cooking, already cooking. Um and it's the same with any department within the county, everything. And that's what I said, this is not just a sheriff's office law enforcement, this is probably every department issue. So yes, I think one of the things is if we had a strategic plan where we would know Okay, so what's it's 2022. So in 2023, 2024, 2025, we know what will probably permit it out. We know what
will probably be built. But now we're adjusting to that now, saying, okay, this is what to expect, and now we're given the resources to say, okay, start planning for this. Yep, the yeah. That's the problem. Have a little bit of time that, hey, we know it's coming online. This is what we're looking at.
So w you know, being conscious of situation and as the board and future boards. Um, you know, if there's an approval of three hundred units, y in your mind you're gonna think that's gonna probably equal the two new deputies.
Yeah. That's yeah, you three hundred units, nine so just roughly say a thousand. So a thousand is two deputies, yeah, for that unit. And and that's where that's where um You know, from our standpoint, having that seat on the board on the planning board would be great. The where we're allocated at Doesn't really it just kind of says these are the parameters coming through and we all we give is recommendations. Um however you know I think you know if there could be a plan in place that would say this is what we think you know we know what lanes are available, we know where developers are talking, but at least have an idea saying this is where
we think we're gonna be, that would be phenomenal for us. And then you know being able to come back to you and say, Hey Commissioner Oak same as uh in Polk County when they went from the Polk County community. and said, hey, we know where we're at, we know where we're going, this is how many deputies and said, okay, above and beyond your allocation, this is what your number will be, that puts us in a much better position. And then we start planning out Recruiting, hiring, and as I said, we're we're we're traveling to different colleges across the country. We're trying to recruit, we're trying to bring, you know. Is the good people here po possible. The other one too is the Explorer program. That is a phenomenal program we
have in place right now. We're building up people in our own community. And I think that's one of the things that's often lost is trying to recruit in your own community. And, you know, that's the one thing the environment that we built here, you know, the commission, the Sheriff's Office, you know, other constitutionals is the fact that, you know, there's not blowouts. Everybody says, okay, things are working here, makes people realize, okay, this is a place to come. So that's something we're working on right now.
All right. Um To me I just want to say I I have no doubt that Between the Fire rescue, uh you know, all our first responders. I think we need to help all of them. And the sheriff and I have had this conversation a couple of times and I mentioned it at the um Penny Workshop. You know, we we brag about how low our taxes up here, but that comes at a price. And it comes at uh a level of service that we're offering to our citizens
with the money that we have. And so that's just something that this board because we're the ones that have to Um At the end of the day. find the money to fund all these operations. And and we I think we all know that um public safety. Yes. almost always number one, if you don't have a safe community um what do you have. So I think it's really important that this board as we go through our budget workshops this year. um
really start to look at that and address it.
I was gonna bring this up anyways or a miscellaneous business in some second, maybe we'll bring it up now and this is a question for Mr. Steinstecker 'cause we I had brought this up before in in this, but it's been some time. We talk about you know, new growth coming in. You know, under s under st state statute, um or I don't even want to bring up our own compliant or or or land development code, but under state statute Is there not a way, are we not able to when we have when we see new growth and new people new movement to the area that we have some type of possibility to can you have a separate MSTU
for new people coming in? On top, I you know, I EGA public safety ms tu for new growth, new people that come into the county. Is that a possibility?
Or should we adjust the impact of the easement? Before you
answer that, well after you answer that, I'll say something.
So you can't uh you your general millage is limited To be consistent throughout your population.
An M S T U might be able to be crafted in such a way that it It would pay for additional municipal services, but you're not really talking about additional municipal services. You're talking about shifting the tax burden to the new folks coming in. So that that growth pays for itself.
In addition to what the current for example we have a fire MSTU now, right? Um But the
fire MSTU is consistent throughout anybody who is getting fire service.
Correct. Is there a possibility when it comes to new growth to add an additional one in a B could be, for example, a general public safety MSTU? I and then we'll figure out how to we would figure out how to divide that up, but is that a possibility? As
I as I said to you when we discussed this many months ago It might be able to be done. It's I think it's out on the edge. I'm not sure whether it's defensible or not.
Okay. I'm just I'm no who would be
I don't know anybody else who's not know anybody else who is is doing it. Now now if you uh I mean there is the possibility that the prior sheriff had approached the commission at one point in time about doing a law en law enforcement impact fee to help fund the sheriff's operations. Um that's a possibility, but again, with impact fees, you're not going to be able to pay for deputies, really, because it's not a
capital cost, and you're not good and you're not going to be able to pay for the back. So it'll it'll be attributable to new growth, but it'll be the bricks and mortar and the vehicles and that sort of and equipment.
But
the MSTU could pay for the
MSTU is a tax, so it it
or it could
be used.
Fire rescue personnel, the m the new MSTU could be an additional MSTU could do that. If you feel it's defensible. And and I I understand you obviously you want want to make sure something like that's defensible. At the same time thinking forward, if a new resident for is coming into the area, they already know what they're buying into. They know that's there. Right. So there's no question to them. It's not like you're putting on a an additional one on their current resident. You're telling new people that come
to the area, this is what it's gonna be.
I don't know who would sue that.
So I'm wondering if we um can move the discussion to a workshop, which is really a more appropriate place to have this kind of conversation. Um and uh I have no idea when that is. If we have it scheduled. And I'm gonna be talking about workshops, other workshops.
In May
4th. Okay. So we we hear you. We understand. I know, I understand. We face us in a lot of our departments. But certainly yours and our fire rescue, they're very important to the quality of life for our residents.
May twenty fourth is the board's budget workshop.
I'm not here May twenty fourth. No. No, that's April twenty fourth.
Yeah,
May twenty fourth. It was a board budget
bookshop. All right. Thanks.
Thank you all very much. Have a wonderful day.