Sheriff budget and law enforcement impact fee presentation

1:13:07I didn't make sure I get the right address. Um I wanna thank you all very much. I I know a few of you had saw the budget presentation uh back in the spring, and so you're trying to get me here and um apologize conflicts, but you know, I appreciate the invitation. Uh so give you a little bit of background what's going on with, you know, how growth impacts us, what we see. Um you know we have a quick PowerPoint presentation to go through. Uh talk about some of the things about residential growth. And I will Always admit, you know, I'm not anti growth.

1:13:38Um I'm always about planning. That to me is the biggest thing is plan, plan, plan. That's what we do. Storm comes. That's how we plan out the sheriff's office. Operation. We're constantly planning, planning, planning. And so as you go through the planning process, there's things that you know we hope We can talk about today that would assist you all uh for questions and answers. So we are involved in the pre-app process. Um one of the things you know we talk about So we are seeing a reduction in property crime, which is good. But the big thing for

1:14:08us is when you do approve residential property um you know, plans, you know, things that we put in the pre-app process that are not binding. We would hope that you all would fulfill and say, look, we need these things. Uh, you know, gates. Gates make a big difference. I can tell you People come from out of this county. to lift door handles in this county. The problem is people leave their doors unlocked, uh people leave guns in their car. And we've caught people in the past on uh jail calls say to

1:14:38each other, Hey, if you go to this neighborhood, target rich environment, that's where you should go. You get guns, you get this. Like they tell people this is the neighbors you should go. So the more gates you put up, the more tag readers out there, the more it assists us moving forward. The other one too is Even not just when the apartment complex is built. or residential communities built. But even during the process when the developers are building That is critical for us. I can't tell you how many calls we get because there is a developer who's building a major

1:15:09project, but literally every night something's being stolen. Literally every night it's washers gone, dryers gone, this gone, and you know, it adds up for us because even though we know we take a report and everything, but we want to catch these people because you know unfortunately it ends up, you know, it keeps getting passed on to the consumer. So those things do add up and services, calls for services keep piling up on us. The one thing we also look at is The ratio and uh everything we put up there is through FDLE, a lot of the numbers, but you know, if

1:15:39a thousand units are going to go through the process. Uh you know, US Census says that for a thousand units there's gonna be two point four people per unit. So we would then say, okay, the average what the national average is supposed to be is two deputies per thousand. So that's what we'll come back in the pre-approval and say, hey, this is just so the County Commission understands it's about two thousand, I mean two deputies for a thousand residents. So why does this impact us? In Pasco County, we are 63rd out of 67 deputies per thousand. That's the Florida Department of Law Enforcement Numbers. 63rd

1:16:10out of 67 deputies per thousand. And I'll explain a little bit further. How it shows towards other counties. The um Part of it too is

1:16:22We've heard from people say, well, you know, you may approve a thousand units, but that doesn't mean the developer is going to you know, build a thousand units. Maybe you only build five hundred. But I'll show you, we can't just sit there and wait until the certificates are given out and certificate of occupancy is there. I'll show you what we call lag time. And if you just wait till that moment where, okay, that person moved in, now we're gonna start giving you money for deputies, there's at least a two point eight, uh two years, eight months process to hire somebody. We just don't go upstream and say, hey, this is great. We're

1:16:52gonna go hire five people, let's go to ridge and little and let's just pick five people up. That's not how we do things. We can't do things that way. So we have to base things off of when the numbers come in and say there's a thousand that got approved, we have to start planning off of that. So, I'm going to start going through some of these um slides, and please, questions as we go along, please let me know, and we'll push forward. Pasco Sheriff's Office, we serve the seventh largest population in the state of Florida. Out of sixty seven. So this is where it's pretty staggering when you see the numbers. So Pasco

1:17:23County, 545,000, that's the Sheriff's Office. We believe that the cities are roughly eight percent of the population. We are first responder, and we have jurisdiction throughout the entire county, including the cities, but we're we're jurisdiction over first responding to about 92%. But look at Pinellas County. So when you look at Pinellas County, it's roughly three hundred and many glass. Three hundred and ninety five thousand people. So three hundred and ninety five thousand because you have to take in consideration they have Saint Petersburg, Tarpon Springs, Clearwater,

1:17:54Largo, I can keep going through. They have municipalities. We have New Port Richey, Port Ritchie, Dade City and Suffer Hills. And I will stand here and I'll be the I'll cheerlead for them to annex as much as they want. Keep annexing. Because the more they annex, the more they have to keep hiring dep you know officers and you know it's less pressure on the sheriff's office. So I'm a big fan of them annexing areas. And so that's where, you know, for our standpoint, you know, we see other comparing counties, but we're up there with the highest whats. But I go back to it,

1:18:24we're sixty third out of sixty seven deputies per thousand.

1:18:28This just shows the population, the disparity in growth. So within Pasco County, the top line shows our population growth. The bottom line shows the deputy growth. That difference keeps growing. That's the issue we're talking about. Our ratio of deputies per thousand keeps dropping because the population growth is growing so fast, we just can't keep up with the number of deputies. We were in 2019 1.08 deputies per thousand. In 2022, we're one deputy per thousand.

1:18:58You said the ideal

1:18:59ratio is two? Two. That's that's the ideal that everybody tries to strive for. We're just striving for 1.3. Um I I could show you numbers. If we get one point three, what would it be, you know, equivalent if we were equivalent to Pinellas County, we'd have over four hundred and

1:19:16Four hundred and ninety-nine more deputies. If we were equivalent to Pinellas County. Pinellas County's law enforcement budget is four hundred and fifty million dollars. That's not including the jail or the hook center. Ours is roughly a hundred and seventy million. So that's right that's where you show the discrepancies. It also goes back to the fact that you know I saw was it Ernst and Young did a study within Pasco County that eighty-five percent of our revenue of I mean eighty five percent of tax bay uh eighty five percent of our tax base is based off of residential. Uh I can t I I can't

1:19:46imagine what a what their healthy ratio is. But you know, from a county standpoint, when we're basing our whole economy off eighty-five percent for residential. We're showing that, you know, we need to start diversifying more into the business and into the industry, commercial. We need to start figuring out different ways because here's the other side of it. Everything, there's always a pattern in life. History always repeats itself. We're gonna have another cycle call. There will be a downturn. Some point, sometime there will be a downturn. When it's basel for residential again? We're gonna be hurting.

1:20:17And that's the type of things that you know we look at from the sheriff's office standpoint saying, keep planning ahead. What are we looking at? And that we saw that 85% was residential-based taxes. That's not good. The other part too is the reason why I say that is the US Department of Agriculture has a study out there. For every one dollar that comes in for residential. It actually cost the county a dollar and thirteen cents. So we may get a dollar residential, but it costs us a dollar thirteen for services. So we're losing 13 cents on every dollar residential.

1:20:47That is a major issue that we're looking at saying. You know, we we need to we need a little bit more diversity in the county, but those are things that are gonna keep pushing that we are concerned about. So this is the lag time. So somebody moves into Pasco County, say somebody actually they move into an apartment, they move well not an apartment, they move into a new townhouse. In twenty twenty four. By the time they actually pay their taxes, it's not until January of twenty twenty five. So then in January 2025 to pays the taxes It gets collected, it goes to the

1:21:17county commission. The county commission has says in October 2025, okay, Sheriff's Office, here's your money, start hiring people for deputies. Okay, great, thank you. then by the time we actually get them hired trained You know, go through the entire process, you're looking at October of 2026. So between February 2020 and f October of 2026, you're looking at you know over two years and eight months. Of basically, we're providing services and we don't have enough deputies. That's why you keep seeing that discrepancy in the amount

1:21:48of deputies per thousand ratio. This is the other thing too, and I said before, property crimes are going down, absolutely. And you know, kudos to our deputies. I God has blessed us with a phenomenal team. But what doesn't get captured in the crime numbers or the threats. So these are school threats over the past several years. Last year we had three hundred and forty. 340 school threats. Let me uh just bre very briefly tell you what happens in a school threat. I'll give you an example.

1:22:18Golf Middle School. Golf Middle School in one week I think had three, four, possibly five. I don't know if it was that many, but I had four in one week. We get a school threat a at at golf middle. We have to send a whole bunch of deputies. We're all they're running lights and sirens. We send several dogs because we're searching the school, looking for guns, cause they said, Oh, somebody had a somebody said they had a backpack. Had a gun in the backpack, we are sending the cavalry. We go out there, there could be 20, 30 deputies that we're pulling off calls. We're pulling from all over

1:22:48the place. I remember I was there. I was at golf middle school. As that was going on, another call came in at Sun Lake. And so now we're pulling deputies from all over the county trying to get now we have two locations, school threats going on. And basically all the other calls for service which I'll show starts ad piling up. But this is the issue that we deal with. This is not coming, it's not a you know it's not listed as, oh, there's a you know, we arrested somebody. We barely can make arrests because so many of these crimes are just comes through an anonymous

1:23:18tip line. Kids know they know the process, how to get through. But these are the things that keep going on. And let me tell you, so far this year we're trending 190 school threats. It's it went through the roof. The only reason that a hundred and ninety is 190 is because we basically they had a month off from school with hurricanes. So when you take all those hurricane days, if you didn't have that, that number would be almost matching a full year last year. So that's what I just keep saying. These are things that, you know, this is law enforcement. This is what we deal with. This

1:23:48is not even talking about all the mental health issues that we're dealing with. The people that run away, the people that are uh attempting to commit suicide. Those are things that we're consistently getting called to. So these are our zones. These zones haven't you know It's one basically one deputy per zone. Our population in Yankee two Has grown tremendously. Zulu four.

1:24:14early twenty thirteen, twenty fourteen, I sat with each of our commissioners at the time. When Zulu four used to be cow pastures. And I said, look, you know, growth is coming. We have to plan for growth. This is no different than what the schools have to deal with. I mean We have to deal with growth. Well, unfortunately growth came, but the support for public safety didn't follow or match it. So that's the issue that we're dealing with right now is the fact that we're just outnumbered out there. And you're dealing with amount of growth. Now I know somebody will say, Well, why

1:24:44don't you just make one of the ID units in holiday area? Why don't you, you know, increase that but then You make Yankee two smaller. Those idosones never it's not like people left and migrated out of holiday to go. There's still population growth there. So these are the type of things we're facing now. Now we're trying to evaluate it. But until we can get a substantial a sub a substantial amount of more deputies, we're not going to be able to push forward. So that's the one thing that we're dealing with. when you look at these zones. And I can tell you the Yankee zones out in Wesley

1:25:15Chapel It's taking almost twice as long to travel. to calls for service there than it is in uh in the Zulu zones or Ida zones. And the reason why? They literally sit in traffic the whole time. Unless they have to go run lights and sirens, which still can take twenty minutes. It's the traffic over there is absolutely tremendous. So this is what I was just talking about where calls for service can stack up. So this is a Wednesday afternoon. This is the one that we provided the commissioners and that's why I provide you the same exact one. This is February twenty-eighth. This is two forty

1:25:45in the afternoon. With all the calls going on, we were still holding 32 calls we're holding at the time. You know, mental health calls were going on, domestics were going on, in the middle of the afternoon, 32 calls were holding. And so yes, we do try to Um Put our deputies out in certain hours to make sure that, you know, hey, when the higher volume comes in, but this is two forty in the afternoon. This isn't five, six o'clock at night. This is right in the middle of midday. So that's the very quick, short presentation.

1:26:15The only thing I I request is that when the pre-approval process comes through and you see recommendations for the Sheriff's Office to say, hey, look. security features, gates, cameras, those type of things. Please strongly recommend them um because that does make a difference. It does make a difference in the morning when deputies get the call and they say, Oh, we had this one street uh we got hit by fifteen cars got hit. That's fifteen reports and yes, we use um desk officers as much as we can, but there's

1:26:45a lot of times we do have to send deputies out to scenes and that these are these take a lot of our workload up.

1:26:51So Regularly make such suggestions on 'Cause we get these Staff memor memorandums for each of these cases. And I have never seen anything in there. I've seen your standard statement that you don't oppose development and you talk about the lag time for hiring deputies and the need, but I've never never once seen a recommendation for gates or cameras or

1:27:18I I can tell you why there's a disconnect here because I think the sheriff is talking about a pre op on a site plan. Which typically you you're not seeing the site plan approvals come you're seeing a zoning approval, you're seeing the plan amendments, you're seeing the The also the macro level stage. The the types of comments the sheriff's talking about are, you know, gates, security cameras Securing the site. That's typically would be something you'd see at a s pre opera site plan.

1:27:45Yeah, but I do preapps for site plans and I can't ever recall and I don't know, I'll ask Jamie. I can't ever recall anybody from the Sheriff's Department being in there and commenting. So

1:27:55So I can bring forward Colonel Sanborn. So Colonel Sanborn.

1:28:07No, no, I I I get in, so I'll let the colonel explain what when he was on there what he was doing.

1:28:14Make sure. Colonel Sandmorn on behalf of the Sheriff's Office. So um the the form that you're talking about, uh that's where they're contained. Um we typically don't uh make those SIM recommendations on larger scale residential properties. We focus primarily on the multifamily and the townhome properties where there's A centralized association of some sort. Uh we ask that they be gated, we asked that there be outdoor lighting, we asked for the L P Rs.

1:28:39And so is this happening at the site plan process or the cause I mean I do site plan Pre-apps and approvals and I've never seen it. I've never seen it come through in one of the zonings.

1:28:50Certainly. When they send it out to all the various entities for for commentary, um, and it goes into uh I'm I may pronounce it wrong, a Keller or Cela, which whichever system that it uses. We don't have direct access into a cella. We send that uh that response that has that same Generic response. If you get to the bottom paragraph of that, because we don't we don't do a form, you know, it's a form letter that then gets filled in. And you should have seen on that same letter the math that the sheriff is talking about where this will provide, you know, seven hundred new residential units, which is gonna equate to seven hundred

1:29:20times two point four, um where we'll have to account for that in future budgets or it equates to this number of deputy sheriffs.

1:29:26Right.

1:29:29in the rezoning reports, but I've never seen any specific things like that for the gates or the camera. That interests me. And you know, is it appropriate to get those at the zone?

1:29:42I was actually gonna come up with a better suggestion which is Why don't we put these in the code? I mean i if if you're having to recur if if you're Having to make this comment on almost every application that you want gates, security cameras. To me the better place to deal with that would just put it in our land development code. and then staff will just apply it as part of our land development code. Yeah. It's not just on a key page.

1:30:09And that would help us tremendously because the meetings that Mr Moody's talking about I used to attend virtually. Um it it came to a point where uh particularly on the days that they're scheduled it take it it was taking up a large portion of my day and uh and the the times that I attended those meetings uh in uh digitally, right, personally but digitally Um and I made those recommendations to the developer. The one and only question that would get asked after all of my recommendations wasn't to me but about me. And it was, are those binding recommendations or are those just like, hey,

1:30:40you guys would prefer it? I said, Well, those are those are preferences. And I would try and make the case that not only would building that community keep uh help the sheriff's office, but it would make your community more desirable for the folks that are gonna live there. And they said, Okay. And and that became very obvious that since it was a non binding recommendation that nobody really cared what I had to say. And so attending those at at at great cost during my day when I had other things to do became a fruitless endeavor. So we started including those recommendations.

1:31:11Um Mr. Ingall's sitting right there. Um and coordinate we have an ordinance development team that works on making changes to our land development code. And then those changes to the Land O'Me make their way to this body. And then they make a recommendation to the board. So But it all starts with working with staff to get those those requirements into the land of Element Code. He also mentioned wanting better secur security of the sites while they're under construction. That's something we could also address in the Land Development Code. So It

1:31:41seems to me rather than a Trying to You you attending all these meetings and making non binding suggestions. If you want some meaningful impact, let's get it in the code.

1:31:53And yeah, that that sounds fantastic to me, Mr. Goldstein. I d I don't think that we have any issue working forward on that at all. Um that would be a a tremendous um level of efficiency that we've yet to achieve. And so I agree with that.

1:32:07The other

1:32:08question, David, I

1:32:09have. Yeah, I w let me just make one caveat though. So I I do think we can work on a lot of what you suggested. I will

1:32:18roadways in the county that's our planning staff are not gonna want to be gated. You know, there's certain collectors and arterials that The Certainly. Function for through traffic that we do can't have gated. I just so

1:32:28for clarity, we actually didn't part of the reason Mr. Moody probably hasn't seen him is we don't we don't even really uh uh we didn't we never really added those recommendations to um your residentials, so your Conertons and your places like that. We're we're we were largely focused on the multifamily um, but a lot of times they come in here

1:32:47for multifamily entitled.

1:32:53And so we understand that when you've got those residential communities and folks that are coming off of main roads and and places like the Meadow Points where you have a Meadow Point Boulevard that passes all the way through it, you're not gonna wanna put um unnecessary uh blockades to to regular traffic. Um So t totally agree with everything you're saying and and don't have any issue with that at all.

1:33:15So,

1:33:15I think that's a good thing I'm hearing The need for being able to get the deputies Hired, trained, the staffing.

1:33:29When it comes to impact fee, we charge a fire combat fee. So the question that I have is typically impact fee applied for things that bring new capacity, not general operation and maintenance. The question is Can an impact fee be developed for the sheriff? I mean if you like you said, a thousand units and that's gonna have two point four people per unit and

1:33:59he needs two more deputies, if we want development to pay for itself, is it appropriate to assess an impact fee for the sheriff, but I don't th then this goes to my question about O and M versus new capacity. I'm trying to figure out how to do it. Well

1:34:13I was asked I was going to ask the sheriff a question related to that, which is when he puts a new deputy on the road, how much of that cost of that new deputy is salary versus equipment. In other words And one time cost. Yeah. Because the one time capital cost to to fund the car or the police vehicle the equipment, the guns, the the the the uniforms Those can all be funded with impact fees. Um what about one time

1:34:43costs like training and

1:34:45Yeah, it's gotta be a capital cost. It's gotta be a fixed cost. Okay. Same kind of things that we fund with a penny for Pasco. It's gotta be a fixed capital cost. So To answer your question, we don't have a currently have a law enforcement impact fee. We do have a fire rescue impact fee. But even the fire rescue impact fee can only fund capital.

1:35:03That's so that's what that's the nature of the question. If there were if if the board were to adopt a law enforcement impact fee What could those monies be used for?

1:35:16So it would be it would be capital. So now interestingly I know the sheriff doesn't run the jail anymore, but you could actually use it to f expand your jail as well. So Um so there was the reason I know all this is because This probably predates the sheriff, but back in two thousand four. When we developed the fire risk impact fee, there was going to be a law enforcement impact fee. that was going to fund the very cost that I just talked about, capital cost for the sheriff, Use it to expand the jail. I don't want to

1:35:46go into all the various reasons why it didn't happen, but it just didn't happen. And so Unfortunately because it didn't, we could have been collecting revenue since two thousand four that could have been used for expanding the jail, used for some of the sheriff's capital costs. It's not gonna fund his salaries. But at le it but If you had an impact fee, it might h at least help. You know, it's it's less money that you'd have to worry about and

1:36:10is so we have growth, we get new apartment units, we get new single family detached, that's ad valorem revenue, a portion of which goes to his department to fund salaries and that. But it impact fee can be used for these capital costs. And that's what I'm trying to figure out. How much of that is actually like said a a percentage. So

1:36:31I mean, to me the best model in our county is what we do for fire rescue, okay? Because Fire rescue has an impact fee to cover its capital costs, and then it has an MSTU to deal with all of its operational costs, salaries, no. I know the board has had some discussions with the sheriff about potentially doing an M STU for law enforcement. Um but I think the logical combination with that would be an impact fee So that the taxpayers are not funding the entire cost of growth.

1:36:58Well the I mean the whole theory behind the impact fee is that growth has to pay development has to pay for itself. So it the development is spurring the need for the additional deputies, the additional equipment, it would seem to me that that might be appropriate.

1:37:12So so Sheriff, along this line of speaking, what percentage of that two point eight years? um would you say is attributed so of all the costs of that deputy over the two point eight years, what percentage of that is fixed capital costs and what percentage is salary?

1:37:28So I could give you general general our salary and benefits uh is roughly eighty five percent of our budget. So out of that the you know, basically you're looking at But within that first few years. So it's it's front loaded with the easement. So your vehicles your vehicle is basically your fur like your vehicle and your equipment, but this all gets a this gets replaced over time anyway, your vehicle gets replaced after a couple of years. So Where the money would probably go towards with an impact fee is uh technology. So we try to

1:37:58utilize technology as much as possible. And so that's why if that would you know, under law if we were able to use it for technology, that that is where we would get our biggest bang for our buck because then we can shift The money that we're spending on technology. uh in our in our general budget towards other operating uh expenses. So So yeah, the one thing about the MSTU and it one thing Mr. Grossing made made a good point. This This is and I'll tell you I say this publicly to the commissioners too. This is my concern of creating a MSTU right away for the Sheriff's Office. This

1:38:29is our budget right now where we are. And and look, I I go back to I told the county commissioner I had a meeting with one of our commissioners on Friday, I said, look, I get it. There's no money anywhere. When eighty-five percent of our when eighty-five percent of the money coming into Pasco County is from residential and we're losing nineteen cents on every dollar. From a business standpoint, that's we're we're all losing. So I get it. If the commission had the money like we do they do in Penelstra Hillsboro and you had ports and airports and hotels on the beaches, all this, you're bringing that tax revenue in. It's much different. It's not that way in Pasco. We're a heavily residential community and we're losing nineteen cents

1:38:59on the dollar. My concern of an MSTU is If we are at this this is where we're at now. This is where we need to be. And you're going to try to create this with an MSTU right away. That will probably be one of the largest increases in taxes in Pasco history that we would ever see. So my thing is we would have to prioritize what the needs are first. Try to bring up the budget for the Sheriff's Office before you go to the MSTU because if not, you're just gonna create a all you're doing is filling that gap with the MSTU, which

1:39:29in today's day in the the, you know, when people are struggling right now. That would be one of the largest tax increases ever in this county and I would be I would say no. Until we get until we start prioritizing some things, I think that would not work out well.

1:39:41But going back to the impact fee discussion It seems like a logical first step because Even if it's only fifteen percent of your costs. It's fifteen percent of the costs that are not being passed on in the MSTU to the taxpayers. So I mean, I think that's a good thing

1:39:56And I I prop I think it's probably more than that in the first two two point eight years. Over time it becomes eighty five percent. So do

1:40:03you have no idea? So I mean fire rescue is right in the middle of doing an impact fee study. They have a consultant working on it. Have you had any? Is it possible you could have a starter dialogue with mist with JJ and Absolut.

1:40:17How about getting

1:40:18a study done for law enforcement?

1:40:19Mm-hmm. For for an

1:40:20impact fee, absolutely. We'd love to be a part of that conversation. There's a lot that, you know, especially us and fire rescue are trying to do together now. And so this would help us and

1:40:28Well, I think it might also help the county because we have a jail that at some point is gonna have to be expanded again. And if we're not accumulating revenue. Um Oh I

1:40:38don't worry, I lived it for twelve years. I know, yeah, I've been I've been crying that river for a long time. I don't have to cry anymore, yeah.

1:40:50Are there Hmm. I'm trying to be careful how I phrase this question, but are When it comes to residential and non-residential development. Are there Different types that demand more or less Of your resource, I think you were inferring that the non-residential probably doesn't need as much Sheriff's Department resources. So for instance is there any difference between single family detached and town homes

1:41:20or versus apartments?

1:41:22So it it's a great question. It's funny because I go to I go to presentations and I hear people just talk about the county in general. Like I'm sick of seeing car washes and storage units. I'm like, I love them. I said to pay taxes and never call us. Um literally I drive by all the time like these are great. At two o'clock in the morning they're not they're not saying Sheriff's office, you know, we got this fight in progress. It's like there's nobody there. Um Um so the the answer is it depends on the population. So we go to million dollar single family houses. With domestic depu disputes. We go to apartment

1:41:53complexes that have section eights with domestic disputes. The only difference is the the density. So if the density is very tight, yeah, we're gonna go there more often because there's more people there.

1:42:05So then

1:42:08So then The density The number of deputies you need per capita. It's just a matter of okay if we're going to approve a large multifamily development, it's just that you need more deputies to cover that additional density. Yes sir. Okay.

1:42:25What can I add to that conversation though is that You also have to look to fully answer your question, you also have to look at the type of residential in terms of What is its tax generation? 'Cause part of what the Sheriff was bringing up is the loss of tax revenue on residential there are certain forms of residential that because of homestead exemptions, because I mean they're there's probab i in in general paying us less taxes than what they're consuming and services. So there are you know, for example you get a mixed use

1:42:56residential project where it's got commercial on the bottom, residential on top. It's probably generating more taxes than it's consuming services because the whole building is generating substantial tax revenue. That may not be the case for a single family standard single family home that's paying homestead you know getting homestead exemption and everything else. So you To me when you're looking I understand the sheriff's looking at density, but you also have to look at What is the tax generation of that unit? And There are some forms of residential

1:43:26that are generating more taxes to the county than others. Not because of anything the county created, but because the state legislature has created certain exemptions for certain types of residential that They don't create for other types of residential and so that effects are For tax revenue.

1:43:42Yeah, that was that was a couple of things I was gonna bring up because you have to the dollar thirteen of cost per dollar worth of tax revenue brought in, that's kind of an average across all residential. So when we're trying to do planning, we probably would want to see what that data looks like for a single family development versus a townhome versus a multi town. Yeah. And then the other thing too is um because you mentioned two point four residents per unit, uh that that calculation

1:44:13will vary as well across those different property types. So it may be a different number in single family versus Yeah. town home and multifamily. So that would be something else that we'd have to take in consideration. And when you figure those calculations out, you know, the the taxes may be better, but the the need for the deputies may be better um may be larger as well, so it might wash.

1:44:32No, that's that so that number we got is from the US Census is a two point four. I could tell you go into houses. There's a lot more families that are living together. in houses in two point four. You're getting multi generational that are Kids are not moving out of their houses, grandparents are moving in, and you can go into a two families living in the same house. Is

1:44:53that data part of the Bieber study that you have? Does in terms of the able vaccination? No, the

1:45:00yeah,

1:45:00the yeah. The

1:45:01y the resident of people per dwelling unit. We have data on residence per dwelling unit 'cause we do it for impact fee purposes. So By property type. Yeah.

1:45:16I don't have it in front of me. I mean, Richard, do you remember what your

1:45:19Yeah, but I mean it it's a little bit different because we have a lot of different things. elementary or you know school age kids as far as adults, but It's not ex you know, 'cause like for elo for single family homes for an elementary kid it's point one.

1:45:33Mr. Ingle, do you remember Like on average what our occupancy is per home or residence per home? Two point five four.

1:45:41That's pretty close. Go off our number a little bit. But that's across all dwelling unit types, correct?

1:45:48That is according to the standards in the American Community Survey 2022. So is there

1:45:54variation between that number between dwelling unit types?

1:45:58Right. Multifamily obviously has less per household than single family, but the blend is 2.5

1:46:03So that's why I'm saying it would be good to know the breakdown of those things when it comes to trying to figure out The impact on law enforcement. Going forward.

1:46:12We're doing that now. We're revising our comprehensive plan and it would be a great time to entertain a discussion with the sheriff's office.

1:46:18Okay. No, and I appreciate that. It's it's I give you all credit 'cause I think it's been thirty years since that's been updated. So we appreciate that that's great that it's gonna be updated. We would love to be a part of it. We told the commission we wanna be a part of it because That is a big part. The one thing too is also just keep in mind and I honestly appreciate you all. This is the first time it's ever come out to bring us involved with the impact fee. So thank you all very much. Um we want to be involved in that. Um we we need bodies. Like for fire department, they need firehouses. That's a big thing for them. They because they stay there. For us, we're constantly on the street

1:46:48patrolling. It's a different model. So that's what I say, but if we can use that impact fee for other uh like uh technology, aviation, drone, those type of things that are making us more efficient. then we'll be you know, the more efficient we are, the better we can hopefully get Deputies to calls for service, handles calls for service. And um you know,

1:47:09I'm sure it's gonna depend on what the statute allows for that. The other the last question I had and I'm not sure.

1:47:14I would say in general, yeah, I think you can. Yeah. I think if it's a capital cost with the t technology, I mean I can tell you libraries uses it for books. So if libraries can use it for books, you I think we can find a way that you could use it for technology.

1:47:27So the last question I had, and then and like I said, I'll shut up, and this is probably better to David as well. So Do we have to do that? data 'cause I would assume the empirical data is there. Do we have data on the average number of units that are have been built over time versus what was entitled.

1:47:46We don't have that data across the county, but I'll give you an example. V O P H is running at a sixty percent of entitlement run rate right now, and we use that as a benchmark because it is similar to the MPUDs that we are approving.

1:48:00'Cause that would be something I mean uh the uh the data's gotta be there if we look back historically. Now obviously it's just a prediction. But that could be helpful as well because then we can look at, you know, okay, if we know that there's a sixty percent flow through rate on whatever we approve in entitlements, then that can help us on those calculations as well. And and to help the sheriff's office. So that he can

1:48:21better plan for when he needs the the deputies. But, you know

1:48:29Uh, Hopefully we're gonna get to a more normalized market. I think the post COVID growth when we saw a rapid increase in population. These people moved down from the northern states and all into our air that caused this rapid population explosion. But we don't have that same phenomenon going on. There's still growth going on, but we don't have the the pandemic push that was going on. Doesn't mean we shouldn't adopt best practices though.

1:49:02Hopefully he can get some data so that in a more normalized market then it helps him plan for when he needs these resources, you know, the human resources and the equipment available.

1:49:15I would have think that flow through shouldn't matter what the market looks like. It's probably uh

1:49:19You know, uh Sheriff in the eighties and nineties, um, there were a lot of people from all over the world buying properties here, homes, residences, and they come and spend, you know, six or eight weeks here and then use it like an Airbnb the rest of the time. And of course they don't get homestead exemption.

1:49:41the county in their wisdom got rid of that ability to do that. Yeah and of course now. We've reverted I think more to an economy based upon everybody having a homestead exemption. or a what I call a low income rental. And uh You know, and I think that has had a d dramatic negative impact. On our economy because not only do you Um decrease the number of homes that are

1:50:11paying full boat. on the on the value of their home. But you also tend to depress the amount of people that are coming in for holidays. Spending money, have money to spend. And you know and to When we when we had properties like that. The honors. had to maintain their property. Or otherwise it it could it wouldn't rent because there are People coming here and paying a thousand dollars a week. Just stay in a home with a pool and yeah, it'd be nice. Right. And

1:50:42uh now There's no justification to do that. They just let the home run and go to seed. Yeah it's it falls down to the l' lowest common denominator. So I think the county did a very Bad thing, wouldn't they? the ability to do those short term rentals. Um Properties were better maintained. Values remained up. And you are getting a higher Uh

1:51:13volume of people with money to spend. And which resulted in more revenue. For the Sheriff's Department and Well up for everybody. So I mean I think if we looked at right now, the percentage of homes in Pasco that are occupied and have homestead exemption, I think would be dramatically more than were in the eighties and nineties. And and I think that's gonna that will no no doubt create a loss of revenue.

1:51:42And it it's interesting as you're saying, I was thinking we're in another seismic shift because what we're gonna see west of nineteen Uh because of these two storms is going to be a seismic shift in Pasco County and it'll be interesting to see which way it starts moving towards but Yeah. It's it's it's devastating what happened, but that's what we said that that that was a seismic shift and we're about to enter a new one. And and that's gonna what I'm just

1:52:05talking about is gonna have an impact on that because Yeah. I mean a lot of those homes. are you know, they're gonna fall under the pifty percent rule. Where, you know, if the value of the home to replace it or rebuild it is more than fifty percent. You have to knock it down and start all over again. So what do you end up with? And it was somebody that had a two hundred thousand dollar mortgage on their home. And the home's no longer there. So all I really have is a lot to sell. So the only people

1:52:35you're gonna sell it to to make anything out of it. There are people that have enough money to come in and actually buy the lot. pay off the mortgage, and build a new home. And build it. Much nicer, much higher. and much and w create much more tax value. Or Yeah, if you don't do something to help To to To encourage those type of people to come here, you can end up with a vacant lot. And again, no no tax revenue. So

1:53:07You know, I think the county needs to really think about How they're gonna address those issues because people are gonna be devastated if they can't afford to bu rebuild their home. And there's gonna be a lot of those. You know, because unfortunately Most people do have mortgages. And, you know, if your home's gone, you know, have not you have nothing to fall back on. You still have to pay off your mortgage. Yeah. So, you know, I think These are these are the kind of things that people need

1:53:37to think about and address before they Um Do something like the county did before and just carte blanche, get rid of People that that w are willing to come here and spend their money, have a second home on the water. A nice one. Yeah, and it could make a huge difference in the economy. You're right. You're exactly right on that.

1:54:02Could a law enforcement impact fee be? Zoned. Like we do mobility fee rates, that there's different rates throughout the county. In other words, so for instance The sheriff's probably not seeing rapid growth in holiday in Hudson. Well, he is an Hudson now, but He's seeing a lot of rapid growth in Wesley Chapel, and so that impact fee money can be directed for deputies in that particular

1:54:36You could do it by zones, but uh my only only slight concern with that is that

1:54:44They don't fix locations like Part of rescue does. I mean they When you put a police car on the road, it's traveling all over the county. And so um or a gun or or a uniform or Uh our jail serves the whole county. I mean so I it's not confined to a it's gonna be hard to say that the pavement of a fee for his police cars don't benefit the whole county. I mean because Typically you do those zones when there's a benefit. The reason

1:55:14mobility fee does it is 'cause typically people tend to drive in the same area of the county when they live there. I'm not sure that his infrastructure Costs. You know, if he buys a drone It's probably used county wide. I I don't think he's gonna limit it to just You know, one piece of the county. So Um It can be done, but for that particular type of infrastructure, my problem that recommendation would be that they not do that 'cause it unduly restricts where he can spend his money.

1:55:45I don't want to tell the sheriff you can only use your drone in Wesley Chapel. I don't think that's gonna work. No it's been using it in

1:55:52my neighborhood.

1:55:54For good reason.

1:55:58Stuff turns us crazy for the future. And and I said we're on the head we're ahead of the curve, but y we actually come up with plans that, you know, with the drones you there's certain locations you can actually fly ahead of the call for service, figure out what's going on, what we you know, and then basically make it safer for the citizens, make it safer for the deputies. And what we're also doing is in the long run trying to reduce helicopter costs. The helicopter flights cost extreme amount of money compared to drones. And so that's something as we move over time, there are there are certain uses for the dr for the helicopters, you know, whether it's cer repelling

1:56:28down, pulling somebody out of the flooded situation for tactical situations situations or for a pursuit. Um there are times, but majority of the time we can use a drone and those those type of things for an impact fee to be used towards that. That makes us more efficient. We save on gas dollars on a helicopter and then we can roll that back into deputies.

1:56:45And by the way, even fire rescue, which is more location specific Because they're sometimes responding to calls throughout the county. You know, if they get a large fire they're calling in multiple Stations. So even though even that we don't do it by

1:56:59geography. Well we appreciate being involved in the impact fee study that Great suggestion. Thank you very much. And

1:57:08Yeah,

1:57:08I think you should talk to Stephen Engel's team about getting some of that codified so that I You know, I don't wanna see you have to send somebody to every pre op meeting and make a suggestion every time that isn't even being followed. So

1:57:21I've already approached the uh sheriff's team and we're gonna setting up a meeting now. Right. Well and

1:57:27and the uh you know the reason I was bringing up the whole the ratio thing is because you know we see something similar to that with schools, right? So we say this project is likely gonna generate X number of children. There's no reason why we couldn't figure out the numbers to be able to figure out all right this project's gonna likely generate the need for three point six deputies.

1:57:46Well and the benefit of an impact fee study is it'll look at all that.

1:57:49Yeah.

1:57:50We will have concrete data on How many deputies an apartment complex generates or a single family home? That'd be great. Because that's what I would love to see on a

1:57:58memo, you know, on a on a

1:58:01But that's the other b that's why I'm encouraging them to go down the impact fee route 'cause then we'll have better data on the impact, even though if it's only paying for the capital part of it. It'll still let you know Hey, how much how many deputies does a single family home generate or an apartment complex or or a Walmart, whatever it is The impact fee looks at that.

1:58:20And your big need is in that first two point eight years. That's where you're that's where you're kind of behind the eight ball, 'cause but once you hit the two point eight years and tax revenues come online and you can kind of fund that from that point forward. In theory you should be able to get it.

1:58:36Sure.

1:58:36So we need to keep

1:58:37it.

1:58:37You're always playing catch up.

1:58:40Just seeing the number of entitlements we give, I never realized until today. Basically with his numbers, every time we approve four hundred apartment units, he needs a deputy. Yeah.

1:58:56That that happens on a routine basis every meeting here, it seems like.

1:59:01Yeah, and

1:59:02what's the what's the cost of a deputy?

1:59:04Uh roughly two uh to start off, roughly two hundred thousand dollars. And so I can tell you last year in the first six months, how many was it? How many

1:59:15Yeah, there was forty thousand entitlements. So and then well what's wrong with the back of my head. Eighty deputies? Yeah. So that would have been eighty deputies in a six month period last year. And

1:59:25and what's your average annual cost per deputy for benefits and salary?

1:59:29That's so that's starting off with that we always do it from the starting off. The problem is after that it's hard to get ratio.

1:59:37Yeah, that's true. So that's that's that's the hard part of getting out, but we always say to start off is roughly two hundred thousand dollars a year, but that's what I said we had forty thousand were approved and there would have been eighty deputies.

1:59:48Yeah, I just feel like the impact thing would still be pretty useful because in that first two point eight years, you're gonna be front loaded with capital cost and then it's gonna become more salary from that point forward.

2:00:01The sheriff's pointing out with the taxes it's like there's that two year lag before we really collect the taxes. Right. So that

2:00:07accelerates the time

2:00:07in which with the capital part we'd get that closer to when he needs it. Yeah.

2:00:13David, I just wanted to m ask a question. I think you mentioned so this would be residential and commercial too, correct?

2:00:19I think the impact fee should look at both. I understand the sheriff has Less needs in the commercial side. Right, but you still

2:00:25get calls.

2:00:26But I can tell you the fire rescue pays uh the commercial pays the fire rescue impact fee currently.

2:00:33Yeah.

2:00:38Well I appreciate it all. God bless you. Thank you all very much. Have a great day. Thank you. Thank you, Sheriff. Thank you.