APC17 PDD 230335 C Pass 2304 Bayonet Gardens affordable housing

44:51Next item is APC seventeen.

44:53Right.

45:03Good afternoon, Robert Irving, Planning and Development.

45:08So this is item PC seventeen, which is C Pass 2304 Bayonet Gardens. And this is a small scale comprehensive plan amendment in the name of P D D twenty three zero three three five. Here's the site location. Um this is located within the West Market. uh area within the urban concentration area. It's kind of on that one bend that US nineteen has for the northern part. Um within Commission District Five. The proposal is to change the future land use from res six,

45:38residential six dwelling units per gross acre, to res twenty-four. Um the purpose is For a multifamily development with fifty percent of those proposed units being affordable. And this is located on the west west side of Lakeshore Boulevard. And this will have a sub-area policy, which I'll get into with these next slides, which will be 7.1.73 Bayonet Gardens. So here's the site site location, and there's just a few things I want to touch on that I think are important in establishing a background on this parcel. Um

46:09this parcel is within the coastal high hazard area. There is also an AE flood zone. Um And an archaeological site. There's a category two wetland on the southern part, kind of where that lake is. Excuse my shaky hands. Um And the I want to briefly kind of mention the sub-area here. The the intention behind the sub-area is to require that fifty percent of the proposed units in this development are affordable housing. And I'll touch on it further, but the zoning

46:39currently allows more than the future land use would. The zoning right now is MF1. So the idea behind the sub-area is if fifty percent of the proposed units, like I mentioned, are affordable, then they can get the full RES-24 uh density. But if they are not affordable units are not proposed, then this would be subject to res twelve, which would be in conformance with the current zoning.

47:03So here's a context map to kind of just provide some of the right-of-way. idea as to where this is. I think it's important to note that there's two transit stops about seven hundred feet northeast of this project. Um and the 5A Road Trail is currently um out out for bid, I believe, with purchasing, and within by the end of July. Within four hundred and twenty days it'll be constructed. Now the reason why I feel like that's important to note here is with fifty percent of the uh units being affordable, these residents may not have access

47:33to vehicles and by being able to utilize the the public transportation and the trail they'll be able to access a a wide variety area within the county. Here's the existing future land use, um which is Uh the existing future land is res six and to the north it's ROR, res six, and res twenty-four. Actually about a year ago, that parcel directly north was approved for the exact same kind of proposal. Um to the east is res six, to the

48:03south is res six, and to the west is res six as well.

48:09Here's the proposed future land use. And then here's the zoning. Um so I just so the the zoning is currently MF1 and to the north the zoning is PUD, MF3, and MF2. To the east the zoning is PUD and PO2. To the south it's AC, PUD, and MF1. And to the west it's MF2 and MF one. Now also just to provide a little bit of background with the zoning. In 1978, this parcel was rezoned from AC to a PUD to allow for a multifamily development. And

48:39then in 2006, this parcel was again rezoned to MF-1 to allow for a multifamily townhome development, with the caveat that it was capped at 173 dwelling units. The applicant also has already gone through a pre-application to rezone to MF3, but it has not been filed yet. I just want that to be noted.

48:59Um so the following policies are the proposed amendment is consistent with the following comprehensive plan policies. Uh policy HSG 1.1.2, comprehensive plan amendments, policy flu eight point one point one, West Market Area Establishment. Policy flu 9.1.7 urban service area, policy flu 1.6.3, transitional land uses, policy HSG 2.1.1, state and federal housing programs, and just to touch on some of that. Um This

49:30This project is consistent with the surrounding area, considering that the surrounding area is all medical offices and The Hospital is a big portion of this that should be mentioned. In 2021 there was a study done by the Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council, and this area specifically was noted as an activity node. And with the expansion which is e I I believe currently occurring for the hospital, there's going to be about two hundred new jobs added and this this housing will be Are

50:00the those jobs will be met with this housing opportunity if this is pre uh Approved. And um what else? Over here. I think it's also just important to note how consistent this is with the West Market area establishment because the vision of the West Market area specifically speaks to the inventory of affordable housing. and this will provide a big increase in the county for affordable housing. And it also within the Westmarket area, the approximately 60 or 70 percent of the population is at low or moderate income

50:30levels. That was in that study that I mentioned earlier that was identified. So it's especially needed in this area and it will help support those individuals with that income level. Hold on.

50:43And this comes that you or the Planning and Development Department uh One recommends that you find the proposed amendment consistent with the comprehensive plan and recommend approval to the Board of County Commissioners. I'm available if you have any questions.

50:57Are there any concepts for your how many units they're proposing on this?

51:00Um I believe when I last spoke to the applicant, uh who I can attest to it better than I can, was three hundred and sixty units.

51:12Okay. And only fifty percent of those will be affordable? Correct.

51:20Okay. Any other questions for now? What what definition of affordable is that the

51:24So we were using a hundred and twenty percent or below of the area median income? And what is that number? Um I don't know that personally off the top of my head. I can find that out for you.

51:37Yeah,

51:38we'd like to know

51:39that. Okay. Okay.

51:44All right, any other questions? Uh the applicants present?

51:51So you fashion. Effective density is eighteen units per acre.

51:56Say is the applicant present? Okay. Mm-hmm.

52:03Is anyone here to object or to speak against it?

52:08Thank you, Shelley Johnson, [address removed] and I have been sworn. I'll just save my comments for to answer questions. Okay. So

52:15Well Shelley, can you answer the question about what is one hundred and twenty percent of AMI?

52:20So me medium it's m it's it's probably about fifty I don't I didn't look it up, but it's around fifty five sixty thousand dollars is median income in Pasco County right now. So what they do for workforce affordable housing, which is different than low income housing, it's 120% to it's either median income, which is that number I gave you, or 120% below that. How many people? Fifty percent on this property. No

52:43no no no no no the the I

52:48That's the house it's the household. I believe it's the household income.

52:51Yeah, it's per household. It's average median income, yeah. That's the AMI. Yeah. I have the answer because I looked it up.

52:57Yeah,

52:58I think that's a good thing.

52:58So and this is coming from Pasco County. Um The number of persons in household 120 percent AMI is s for a one person household is seventy-three thousand eighty. For a two-person household is eighty-three five twenty. For a three-person household is 93,960, and for a four-person household is 104,280.

53:19So it's workforce is work. It's the same uh language that's used in the Senate Bill one oh two, I think. It is. Yeah.

53:28But this doesn't fall into that purview because this is already zone residential, correct?

53:32It doesn't fall into the land use preemption under Senate Bill one O two, but it might qualify for Some of the tax incentives that are bill one hundred two.

53:43My guess is they probably will attempt to qualify for the

53:46numbers you were reading, Denise, that was the value a hundred and twenty percent of It started at seventy-three thousand.

53:53Yeah, it's uh maximum area medium income taking into consideration a hundred and twenty percent AMI moderate. is seventy three zero eighty for a one person household. So it it starts at thirty percent, which is extremely low, and th these are numbers that are put together in the Down Payment Assistance Program with Community Development. So at 30 percent is eighteen thousand two hundred and fifty for one person household. For a one person household at 120 AMI, which is considered

54:23moderate, is 73,080, and then goes up based on the number of people.

54:30Mm mm. Okay. Any other questions before we hear from the audience? Okay. Sorry, would I come up? Can you give us your name and address, please?

54:44My name is John Burkett. I live at [address removed]

54:54Uh I am also the president of eight s of the HOA for Lakeside Woodlands. which is adjacent to this property. And naturally my residents have some concerns. I had a couple of questions answered already. Um By the plaintiff's attorney. Um it's to my understanding that there'll be no low income.

55:21Residents

55:22This is different than low income

55:23housing affordable. Because I see on the slide there it's State and federal. I I'm just trying to protect my community. We already have a subdivision going across the street. ever ever f green fields.

55:41Sir I just want to be clear with you though that I think their target demographic is workforce, but I don't know that they can prohibit somebody who's making less than that from using renting the The unit.

55:54Well I I understand that. I'm just trying to protect the value of the property. as a whole.

56:01Mm-hmm.

56:02Um I got the answer on Res six, res twenty-four. Thank you very much. And It's my understanding this is adjoys adjacent to our Community. From Lilli Ped to our Pavilion Park. Which would be at the corner of Lakeshore and the two Lakeshores actually.

56:27Which The pond that was mentioned before. That's that lake is part of our community. I I got a c answer to the one other question. And that was would there be a buffer? And I was assured there's a thirty to thirty-five foot natural buffer. that would be great 'cause we do have a lot of wildlife in there. Has anybody surveyed or studied the impact on the wildlife?

56:56Yeah, we'll get answers for these when when they come back up.

56:59Okay. And Naturally traffic. Five A Road It is one lane, both ways. Soft shoulder. We have three hundred and thirty eight houses going across the street. My development is three hundred and thirty-five.

57:17Mm-hmm.

57:18And now you want to put another Three hundred plus. Is there any plan? To eliminate the traffic.

57:27Okay. Yeah, well when they come back up they'll I'll She's making a note, I hope, of

57:33your questions. Now the water source for

57:38the landscape needs On this project, would it be Wells? Reclaim Because we are a well known sinkhole area as the county can attest because they're about to turn over six lots that they demolished for us and filled. And it can never be built on again. Notorious for it. Everyone in our area is notorious for sinkholes. I live in a sinkhole repaired

58:09house. I don't worry about it 'cause it sits on thirty six steel I beams.

58:14And

58:14all I need is a ladder to get in. Okay. Um I would like to know about the water source for that and mainly the traffic, the lo the wildlife and any negative effect. on my community.

58:30Okay.

58:31Okay.

58:32Very good. Thank you for coming. Appreciate it. We'll see if we can get you some answers. Uh who's next from the community?

58:48I'm Sarah Mackenzie Reap and I live at [address removed]. Okay. I've been a resident there since well for about twenty-six years. And um my concerns, some of them which were answered. Um but the gentleman spoke of something I wasn't aware of, the five A trail. I haven't heard of that.

59:14I know there's Starkey Trails, but I'm a little concerned how does this affect Lakeside Woodlands? Is there gonna be something cutting through? that's ad adjacent to us that we aren't aware of or running through our or by our neighborhood. Um I w I watched the whole meeting yesterday with the Senate uh Bill 102 and the tax thing and um I that was one of my questions relating to this development. Is that gonna be something that

59:44is gonna be among one of these three others that are already going in our county and because you know it's not just about my neighborhood, it's about my county in general. And is this gonna be something else that we need to worry about? Um they mentioned three hundred and sixty units. Um I'm not familiar on how this affordable income differs from low income. I am concerned about With the median income How how many um units are gonna be fit for four

1:00:15individuals, two individuals? Um how is that gonna relate to I in from what I had originally read, there were gonna be h houses as well. Is this just strictly apartments, condos? Is there gonna be something that Um our lake, which will be a a behind them or beside them. Um, i is that you know, we pay in our HOAs and stuff to have that lake maintained. Um,

1:00:46is this gonna be something that they're gonna have access to as well? And as previously mentioned, there is quite a bit of wildlife in that lake. Um And have being part of a association that is Full of um the sinkholes, I too am concerned about the the water, uh the aquifer, you know, how is how are these things gonna be affected? You know, having lived there a long time, um I want to look out for my best

1:01:16interests as well and my property values. So I am very concerned about what's going in there. And I thank you for your time.

1:01:24Thank you for coming. Yeah, that's those are very reasonable questions. Thank you. Hmm. Was there anybody else?

1:01:32If not uh Shelley, you want to come up and address some of those concerns?

1:01:40Yeah, to address the utilities, it's central water and sewer. So, you know, there's connections and when they engineer it, that's not gonna be on a well or septic. Um the water body to the south is actually a class two wetlands, so we'll be doing whatever bufferings required from that in addition to the perimeter buffering under the code. As far as traffic, this is you know the the comp plan level, the needs assessment assess uh assessment did not trip any levels of service. There was nothing that showed there was gonna be any issues with this proposal, but you know obviously when we get into the site

1:02:11plan, you know, and engineering, it'll get dig, you know, we'll dig down a little bit more into traffic and if there's improvements or substantial road issues or something that get flagged at that point, you know, we'll deal with it. But we're not seeing any of that at this time at this time. So

1:02:22Are there any plans to impact the wetland or are you gonna is it gonna be completely buffered and left alone?

1:02:27Yeah, we're gonna buffer it. I don't I don't think we're impacting or doing mitigation though. It's gonna yeah, we're gonna buffer from it. That's what when he had asked me that question, that's what I was explaining to him that there's a little bit of additional buffering because we are dealing with the wetlands. So Okay.

1:02:40Sure. They indicated that their HOA Well she didn't mention the H O A So I don't know if that's a a factor or not. They said she indicated that s they pay for a portion of that Like to be maintained. And you can see the property. Yeah, I I can see. That's where I'm going at. Who's how you gonna do that? It's kind of like you got you got a piece of the property.

1:03:03Well, I don't necessarily know that there's any payment. It's a class two wetland, so I don't know that HOA it's it's it's under Swift MUD jurisdiction. I know that I mean I'd have to look at it, but if we're gonna have whatever maintenance obligations we have for the portion of it that's on our property is what we'll obviously have to take care of. But if we're not impacting

1:03:21Yeah, I was just curious about that because

1:03:23in the community

1:03:23I live in, we have a territorial dispute some time regarding the cleaning of certain lakes. So

1:03:30Yeah, no, I don't think that would be an issue with that. Well

1:03:33it could arise.

1:03:34Um and I think there was another question about access. We don't you know, we're not planning any access through Lakeshore, through that PUD, it's you know separate access, so We're we have but uh Lakeshore Boulevard and uh Dallas Drive is what this property sits in between.

1:03:47And it's all multifamily and there's no single family.

1:03:49Yeah, it's all multifamily. It's already zoned for multifamily. Um and then again, like um Robert mentioned, the the property immediately to the north, which is a different developer, has um I think a year, year and a half ago came in and did a res twenty-four similar to what we're doing. I think I think that's the workforce housing development as well. So

1:04:07Yeah, well I think they're concerned mainly about the quality of the development.

1:04:12Yeah.

1:04:12And the type of people that'll be living there obviously.

1:04:15Yeah. So

1:04:16that's why they're asking about the income level. When you you're not talking about section eight.

1:04:20No, no, no. These aren't vouch.

1:04:27I do too. I th 'cause I think it's confusing. Yeah. And when I I was surprised when I asked Denise about the numbers because in the staff report it talks about well This is a located next to transit stops and then talks about the benefit of the trail and that That the people that will live here necessarily can't afford transportation and that'll make their housing more affordable and I'm trying to figure out how someone who makes seventy three thousand dollars in a single person household doesn't have a car. 'Cause

1:04:58I'm d they probably don't make seventy three thousand dollars without that car, but

1:05:05Yeah, it's most likely won't be as as

1:05:07can you illuminate on that?

1:05:09Yeah, I mean the it's not low income, it's not public housing. Um and I think as Denise said, it is you know you're talking about median income starting at seventy-three and above. Right now we're looking at rents in the in the county that are two and three thousand dollars. I know my son's a firefighter, he can't afford to rent in this county right now. Um and he makes a good income, he works for Hillsborough. So um Uh you know, I think what they're trying to get at is there's gonna be a lot of healthcare workers. There is a lot of health care workers that are in this median income range, and really this development is gonna be there to serve them. It's really

1:05:39gonna be so the immediate area, so they can just get on transit, they can save money not having to have a car and insurance. I mean, you know, it's just all that idea of the public facilities are there.

1:05:48The fact that when she brought well excuse me, when he brought up the fact that there's transit locations there, many people There are a number of people who still are in the workforce. I can't use a lot of people because I don't. They tend to go have their own vehicle and then they use transportation, such as the bus system. And I know Pasco County tries to encourage people to use it, and I think they do a very good job at in trying to encourage people to use it. But people will use it. If I have a bus stop that's real close to me and I can use it, and I know the next bus stop is going to be close to where

1:06:18I work at, and there's a schedule. That works into my work schedule, I think people will use that. And they'll use their private vehicle for when they want to do leisure driving, not going to and from work. So I think that's one of the things that I saw when they brought up the transit stops there as being a positive. But also in the back of my mind too went fact that what some of the other folks have said and people on the board have indicated that it might be For those that have a less than a good income and therefore they

1:06:48must use transportation.

1:06:51Right, so a lot of the it's tied to the funding. I mean 50% of it, so we I think David pointed out you could have somebody that makes way less and they could give a false credit report and they could end up renting in there and obviously at some point they probably aren't gonna be able to afford it and they're gonna get evicted. But in order for us to keep the rents at r at levels that are affordable for somebody making $73,000 or somebody working at the hospital, you know, you have to get the funding in place to do that. order to get the funding in place to do that, you have to be able to show them that all these public facilities and all this infrastructure is there. Um which plays

1:07:21right into what Robert was saying.

1:07:29Get the housing in there that people can afford that are working in the hospital and things of that nature. So and and this just allows us to keep that rent level down.

1:07:36Shelley, I'm sorry, I'm I'm a little slow on this. I need I need to back up. I need to take my take a second to think about this. So what this is saying is fifty percent of the union. minutes are gonna be at a reduced price for people that make up to 120% AMI? Correct. So it could be somebody that makes twenty thousand dollars a year that's gonna pay a lower rent than somebody that makes more than a hundred and twenty percent AMI.

1:07:58Yes, it's medium income. So we ha we have to guarantee, which is what we're doing through this sub-area policy, that we are gonna serve fifty percent fifty percent of the units are gonna be at either median income, which is seventy-three thousand, or a hundred and twenty percent less than that. So you can go to one hundred and forty. I think you know we just chose one hundred and twenty 'cause that's more reasonable for this area, but that's what it's for. The rest of it can be rented to whoever qualifies. Just like a regular rental.

1:08:25I'm trying to not use the word cap, but for lack of a better word, the rent is capped at thirty percent of one hundred twenty percent AMI.

1:08:34It helps keep the rental rate down, yeah.

1:08:37They they say it's affordable if The renter is not paying more than thirty percent of their income. So for a single person household, thirty percent of seventy-three thousand dollars is what the rent is for

1:08:52right. And we're guaranteeing we're gonna offer that at fifth for at least fifty percent of these units in order to try to fill that A huge affordable housing gap. I mean, I know you guys probably hear about it all the time. It's it's a problem in Pasco right now. So

1:09:04Yeah, that's still seventeen hundred bucks a month here or day.

1:09:07It's st it's a good amount of money.

1:09:08It's not peanuts.

1:09:11Yeah, no, no.

1:09:12So can I ask a question or So Shirley, are you? I they saw that community development was supporting the application, but I couldn't tell whether you were actually getting funding from community development or not.

1:09:24So we they are working on the funding right now. There was they had made an effort to get some funding for a different type of development on this property. It didn't, it wasn't one of the ones chosen, but they are talking it's there's no funding in place right now. That's probably the short answer. They're working on it. So But

1:09:44how what's gonna be the enforcement mechanism? I mean I understand the complain saying that a minimum of fifty percent of the units Shall be set aside for those with income at or below one hundred and twenty percent of the area meaning income. What duration is that for and how is it going to be enforced once The building permits have been issue. I mean typically when it's something funded through community development There's some Lura or something that ensures that it's affordable for a period of time and There's basically a land use restriction

1:10:14that Addresses How this will be monitored and enforced.

1:10:21I can't tell whether That's happening here or I mean. How not? There's a sub-area policy, but I can't tell how that's going to be enforced. after the fact is built. After it's built, especially if community development's not lending you giving you any money. So

1:10:38Robert, yeah just state your name so we know you're talking. After it's built, I'm not exactly sure. I know the mechanism was supposed to be at the site plan level. Um

1:10:47But okay, but Brad okay, Brad's team does not enforce this either. Brad's team they're they're gonna issue a site plan approval. They're not going to be able to do that. How the property is rented ten years from now.

1:10:58Right.

1:10:59So that my question is who's Okay. What is gonna be the enforcement mechanism to make sure this takes place for the next thirty years?

1:11:07So I think the enforcement mechanism is going to be through the funding. Because obviously if it's a county grant, we'll have county agreements with community development, you know, that all of that language is in their standard forms with regards to auditing, all that kind of stuff. If

1:11:21the county's funding it, I agree with you that they they have requirements that ensure this happens. That's why I started my question with Is the county Providing any funding.

1:11:32We hope so. And I I think my client will is definitely pursuing those avenues with the county, but nothing has been finalized or determined at this point. I think this is, you know, all kind of early in process. What they're trying to do is they're trying to get the the property in a position where there's density there that they can offer this fifty percent. Otherwise they're just gonna do 172 unit, you know, multifamily development, um which is what it's approved for. So you

1:11:53said if this were up Like a HUD loan. I had a c a client right now that's doing a HUD loan and they're getting the opportunity to finance an apartment complex for 40 years. And so if they don't maintain the rents within The bracket. that they're required, then they lose or they're in default of that financing. but you raise a good point. Let's say now the financing is paid off. Mm-hmm. then what's

1:12:24and they sell the apartment complex, what what mechanism is there that the next owner is required to do this to comply with the land use because the only enforcement mechanism in this particular case is that if you don't reserve fifty percent of the apartments for workforce housing, then your future land use is twelve dwelling units to the acre. Well, no one's gonna come in and make 'em tear the units down

1:12:48once

1:12:49they're built.

1:12:50Yeah. You already built it eighteen units an acre at that point. Right.

1:12:53I mean my only suggestion would be because I mean it's almost like you know we don't want to put the carp for the horse. So my suggestion would be maybe when you know they get to site plan or something at that point, you know, you can add a deed restriction or something of that nature. I mean the sub-area's gonna run with it right now, saying you've got to do one or the other.

1:13:09Part of my concern is actually for your benefit.

1:13:12Yeah.

1:13:12Okay, because this is putting me embedded in the component. And it says a minimum of fifty percent of the unit should be set aside for those with income out of below one hundred and twenty percent of their immediate income. If this is embedded in the com plan, that's forever. Okay. Normally community development only requires us for say thirty years. So are you really committing that you're gonna do it forever?

1:13:36Because

1:13:36if you put it that way in the comp plan, it's

1:13:38It runs on the land. So if it's developed that way, that's how it's gonna have to be operated, yes.

1:13:45And your client's willing to com make this commit forever, even though community development wouldn't normally make you do it more than thirty years.

1:13:53Well my client's talking. Can I step away on the side?

1:13:58I also want to state for the record that um as Robert was uh uh doing his presentation, he did state that this is gonna come in for a rezoning to MF three. So I think there could also be a deed restriction placed on a voluntarily agreed upon deed restriction.

1:14:13Yeah, I I don't I don't disagree with you that some of this can be dealt with in the rezoning. And Maybe that will help deal with some of the insurance affordability issue. My concern is by embedding this requirement in the Com plan

1:14:31You're arguably committing to do it for eternity. Or until we sub the combo somebody amends the comm plan.

1:14:39Yeah. Which is exceeding I'm not aware of community development ever requiring This affordability being placed longer than thirty years

1:14:50state or federal financing mechanism So I'm not sure why I'm not sure if you're There isn't some duration. In the comp plan or

1:15:02Yeah. For i it doesn't say for a duration set forth in the in whatever lura we impose, but The way it's currently worded, I would argue that's for eternity.

1:15:16Uh Shelley Johnson again, [address removed]. I was just speaking with um with Robert and also the client and I think there's an agreement to add a thirty-year um deadline in there that it'll it'll maintain on the property for thirty years and then it'll be released. And we can probably work through some language between here and BCC, I'm assuming.

1:15:40Is that language through a deed restriction or through uh

1:15:42the sub- area pod is almost like a deed restriction 'cause it does run with the land like David's saying, so yeah.

1:15:47Yeah, but the I think the question is, and I don't know that you can answer that. What's the mechanism to enforce that. Once the once the

1:15:59Buildings are built and they are occupied. Doesn't matter what it says in the comp plan. Now your use is there. Your grandfather didn't N And Nobody can do it. Right now the penalty for not providing fifty percent of Not affordable workforce, housing. is that your your maximum development entitlement is twelve dwelling units to the acre. So I

1:16:30think the question is what stops you from coming in saying, yep, I'm making fifty percent of these units affordable. I'm gonna develop them at twenty-four units to the acre. And then you no longer keep them workforce housing. Well we can't come make you tear down half the units.

1:16:46So I think if we're in agreement that we can add a thirty year deadline, there th like you were saying John though through the financing, that's really where all those enforcement mechanisms come through come, whether they're coming from HUD or whether they're coming from community development.

1:16:59You just said you're not sure you're gonna get a little bit more than that. funding. So it's possible to do a Lura that is not tied to funding. Or you're we're it's still enforceable through the Laura whether Whether you're getting funds or not. Um But

1:17:20I don't know. I think you personally need to work on some of this language more with community development. to figure out what they're willing to How they're going to actually enforce this requirement. after I mean I realize they're supporting the project. Yeah, yeah. But this language in and of itself is probably too stringent for your client, in my opinion. in b in some regards, but also not stringent enough because it doesn't deal with How are we going to enforce to John Mr. Moody's point? What's

1:17:50the enforcement mechanism mechanism after the building's built? You know, what happens if somebody rents to somebody at

1:17:59after you already built a billion. Well then it's too late to reduce the density Because you've already built it. So what what is the what is the remedy and who's going to enforce it?

1:18:07The only thing I can say is just from all of my work I do with affordable housing and with the housing authority, uh through all these financing mechanisms, there's auditing requirements that go into play, whether it be the county or hood. And so they ri they really become the enforcement honor.

1:18:20I don't disagree with you for the rental.

1:18:26Right. I'm fully aware that of all the language that gets put into these documents when we're giving you money because Then if you breach We asked for the money back basically. Or y you there's a there's a financial incentive to meet this requirement because You gotta pay us back the money that we gave you if you don't do it. The issue will be that now that we have Senate Bill one oh two You might do this and get no money from the county and just do it solely for the tax exemption.

1:18:59W what you know, there won't be all these Financing documents that you're talking about?

1:19:04Well, if it's not developed as with the fifty percent affordable housing, which again it it gets all regulated through the financing documents, it's just gonna be a hundred and seventy-two unit multifamily development at regular rents, whatever the market you know bears. So um it's gonna be one or the two. If it ends up being a workforce housing development through those documents, that's where it's going to end up getting regulated in terms of the length, in terms of You know, making sure they're meeting all those AMI requirements because it's all going to be things that are gonna be dealt with through audits.

1:19:34But I haven't heard definitively that you're going to get money.

1:19:37There they I I think they're h very hopeful and they they are I think on a positive path that they're going to get the money, you know, the different avenues they're going through. But you know how complicated that financing is. So nothing's not a good thing.

1:19:55Fifty percent of the units be set aside as affordable. And you do it solely for the tax exemption.

1:20:00Mm-hmm.

1:20:03any money from the county Or the state. And at which point there won't be any financing documents. to ensure affordability.

1:20:14And then it just becomes a Well then it just becomes a regular it's just a private development. These uh McDowell, the owners that I work for are affordable housing developers. That's what they do in the state of Florida. They've done a hor affordable housing developments down in Miami, um in different areas all over the state. That is that is what they do. They don't do anything other than that.

1:20:36We're looking at what happens Down the road. People build apartment complexes and then they sell them off to a reed. They're not going to be able to do them off to another investor. That's that's what the concern is.

1:20:51Right that pays for cash that doesn't have any kind of financing contingency or anything. They can set the rent at whatever they want in theory, and now they have three hundred and sixty units that's at all expensive rent. And they're making even more

1:21:02than

1:21:02a lot of people.

1:21:03No, because I think if if I think the way the financing will be set up, they're gonna see this. It's all this is all gonna be part of what they make their decision on. This is the right-of-way. But if another owner,

1:21:11if someone else steps in and buys that property and pays cash for it, right? Let's say you're someone saying, Hey, I'm gonna make all these high end apartments. Yeah, I'm gonna make a bunch of money on each unit, so now I'm at twenty four units per acre. they can step and pay cash for it, take the financing con contingency out of the question. And now they can do whatever they want. There's no enforcement arm to say, hey, we shouldn't be at that density now 'cause they're already built.

1:21:36You know, I don't necessarily disagree with you. I mean uh there but this is how these are

1:21:41I'm not

1:21:41really arguing with

1:21:42you as the applicant, but I'm just kinda speaking about

1:21:45what our issue is

1:21:46in the

1:21:47way to tackle this issue.

1:21:48Yeah.

1:21:49My point is that the way the subway policy is drafted currently, I don't think it adequately tackles the issue.

1:21:55Yeah, I hear what you're saying. I do.

1:21:56Because it doesn't you're you're saying oh this will all be enforced through the financing. True if they're financing.

1:22:04That's true.

1:22:05But

1:22:08You know, I understand that you're not going to be able to do that. Client has done a lot of affordable housing projects. Santa Bell 102 is fairly new. This tax exemption is all new. So it's possible As your client, he may actually want to do this With only based on a tax exemption. So If that's the case, we won't get this finding these financing documents that you're talking about. Finature affordability. So There has to be some other mechanism to ensure that if we gave you all this additional density

1:22:38based on it being affordable How are we gonna guarantee that happens ten years from now, twenty years from now when the property is sold?

1:22:48implying that that can be fixed by rewriting the sub-area policy? Yeah so

1:22:53I think there's a way to craft the sub area policy so that it i there's some commitment for Allura or some Penny for a period of time, say thirty years, that will So that's something you can draft on the fly.

1:23:09Or work out with Ms. Johnson.

1:23:12The reason I cannot draft this on the fly is because I've been in conversations with the community development department. indirectly and I'm not sure they're willing to enforce this requirement if they're not getting state or federal funds. That's that's the issue. So It's not a le just a legal drafting issue. There's also a who's going to enforce issue. And I don't have firm confirmation that community development is going to enforce this issue on a project

1:23:43for which they're not providing financing. So I can't do that. The answer to the question is yes, legally I could draft something. I don't know that it's something that our community development department is willing to enforce. I understand. I the

1:23:56reason for the question, and I'm not trying to force you into a legal decision on the spot, is I'm trying to figure out if a continuance is appropriate because it's it's a land use decision. It's not one week

1:24:10condition. It you don't but you do have some input on the sub area policy which is a which is effectively conditioning this project, which is Uh do I think this could be worked out between now and the board meeting? I think it could, but if it's important for the Planning Commission to know how it will be enforced before you recommend approval Then you'd have to continue it. I I do think there is a way to

1:24:40I've spoken to our community development attorneys. I believe there is a way to legally enforce this requirement after it's built.

1:24:50This subway policy doesn't cover that. But it it could it could be redrafted to do that. But but it's not just a legal issue, uh my point.

1:25:05So can we conditionally approve it with the condition that that we find a way of enforcing that? Between now and B C C

1:25:13Yeah, I mean you you could approve it with a recommendation that the sub area policy be modified to provide a Um some enforcement mechanism for the affordability. Some post development enforcement mechanism. for the affordability.

1:25:31And we would be fine with that. The applicant would.

1:25:36And I assume for a period of thirty years.

1:25:40Thirty years. That's

1:25:40that's standard, so I think that I'd be okay with that.

1:25:53Any other qu questions or comments?

1:25:55Well the only thing I other I wanted to mention is that there's wildlife came up a couple times by both of the at the residents surrounding it. So so you know at at Site Planter Zoning there will have to be a a protected species or wildlife survey that's done of that area. Any protection measures, whatever that are necessary or mitigation will will be done by the developer at that time.

1:26:16The substandard road. Hasn't this prod this property's come before us before? And I remember there was a substandard road issue at the intersection.

1:26:25The other thing. Roll you one.

1:26:30Excuse me, sir, you can't speak from the chair yet, sir. Come forward and uh we're going a little bit out of turn here, so as long as the applicant doesn't mind. Shelley?

1:26:44Um

1:26:46Are you Do you object to him coming up and having a second?

1:26:50No.

1:26:56Sorry. Yeah. Um Has anyone done a traffic plan, a traffic assessment of that area?

1:27:04That'll happen the next step of this process

1:27:07assuming this

1:27:08is approved.

1:27:09Are we approving this project today or no no

1:27:12no no they they got a long w they got a long way to go. Okay. This is the first step

1:27:17assuming it's approved today. I will tell you that there is a statement in the agenda memo that they did do a transportation needs assessment for the Plan Amendment and it did not identify Any significant impact on the surrounding roadways? Right. But there'll be additional studies that happen as

1:27:33they do the

1:27:35rezoning

1:27:35that's a true statement, yes. And as they get into the site. plan approval. They still have two more flaming hoops to jump through before This is

1:27:45I think that more opportunity for you to go and drive on those roads.

1:27:50They got

1:27:50three more flaming hoops. Trust me, they're inadequate for the traffic we have now. Well I live in the area. I'm familiar with the traffic.

1:27:59But if the study shows that there needs to be improvements made at their

1:28:02expense

1:28:02then it'll that'll come up

1:28:04at a

1:28:04future meeting.

1:28:05And you you'll have the opportunity to come back in front of us again at at those points. When they come

1:28:08for the rezoning. There'll be another public hearing.

1:28:11Oh you guys are gonna let me come back.

1:28:14All right, thank you.

1:28:15So Robert. Um there w I know there was a question From the lady in the back about the five A trail. Um you just wanna clarify that for her to so she'll know what

1:28:25it is. Yes, absolutely. So let me uh this slides up. Um so currently up to kind of where you see the call out, the bottom of that call-out is where the trail is existing to this moment. And it's just that segment kind of in between the transit stop and the bottom of the call out that's currently being bid for construction through the county um through project management. And that that really doesn't have any impact directly to this project. It's just that it's going to be constructed within 420 days. So it to

1:28:55clarify it's on the north side of five A Road. Correct. And it's like a bike or walking path. Yes, it's just gonna be a continuous.

1:29:05Exactly, yes, that is

1:29:06correct.

1:29:06And that last piece is gonna connect with uh hospital complex.

1:29:09Yes, i it it's intending to go all the way up to I believe almost nineteen from there. And also there was a question earlier about the HOA and that I I believe that what she was speaking about was there's a park. That's connected to that HOA and I think that might be what she was speaking to, just to clarify.

1:29:24Okay. So can I ask Shelley's client a question? Of course. Well first of all I want to make sure does Shelley do you want any more rebuttal now that we had to okay. Can I ask your client a question?

1:29:40Yeah.

1:29:44Sean Smith, [address removed].

1:29:48So you're Basically gonna be the developer of the project.

1:29:52Uh I work for McDowell Housing Partners. I'm the development manager on this project.

1:29:55Okay. So Do you think you'll be able to build it without any State, federal, local funding or I mean in other words Is the Senate Bill one and two tax exemption enough to get the the rents where you need them to be or The fifty percent affordable or d are you gonna be need to seek Some kind of Cash from Local, state, federal. Partners.

1:30:23Yeah, so traditionally all of our uh developments thus far have all been through federal state partners. That's what McDowell has always done. Um you know, in terms of S B one oh two, I I don't think that we've defended, we decided how we're gonna use that or Uh I mean, workforce housing is again a lot different than what we do, right? Because uh you guys made good points. I mean, uh a workforce housing developer can

1:30:53come in and commit to that project, but then again, you know, they're gonna build it, lease it up, and most likely sell it, right? And that's very different than what we traditionally do as affordable housing developers. Uh usually we're under Laura's where we have to maintain we have to own the property for a minimum of fifteen years. Most of ours uh properties again have affordability uh restrictions, LURAS, as you mentioned, for m 30 years. to all the way up to fifty years so

1:31:23on some of our projects. So again, our traditional path has always been to seek uh state and federal money. And

1:31:31so but this one's a workforce, right? That's what At least that's what the subway policies are saying, that it's fifty percent 'Cause I consider one in one twenty workforce, right?

1:31:42Yeah, well obviously we have we have the option to to do the one twenty, yeah.

1:31:47So I guess that's what I'm asking. Are you intending to do more workforce here or are you intending to do Low. When 'Cause Shelley said it's gonna be workforce. But that's not what you normally do. So are you is are you doing workforce here or not? I guess is my question.

1:32:05Uh I mean again, you know, we obviously we're waiting for this to be determined, to d uh decide our overall plan. But I mean I I I would guess that our, you know, overall determination is gonna be uh probably a blend it of, you know, uh mixed income as you would say with affordable workforce and uh some market rate as well.

1:32:30Okay, and so my original question to you is Can you do that product? Without any County, state, federal assistance.

1:32:42Uh well Definitely not the affordable part, right? Because 'cause they're on the affordable part you're committing to

1:32:50Okay, let's let's just say it was all workforce.

1:32:52Mm-hmm.

1:32:54Could you provide it solely with the Senate Bill One O Two tax exemption?

1:32:59Yeah, in theory you can you can go out and do uh again if you if you can make a deal work under S B one oh two by just getting the tax exemption without any state or federal money. then y you could do that. I mean again, that's not even if we were to use SB one oh two, uh I mean for instance, I don't know, on Tuesday the Florida housing had a workshop Right? So part of SB 102 is it created $150 million. That's gonna fall under the the sale bucket. It's gonna call

1:33:29it's being called innovative sale. and non-affordable, non-Litech developers are gonna be able to apply for that hundred and fifty million and it's heavily incentivizing doing like mixed income, mixed use projects. Now again under that project, which is like that's something if we were gonna do workforce housing, we would target we would still be targeting state funds through that project, and then you're gonna have a thirty year Laura that comes with that that state money, right? But in theory, I mean just from a I guess

1:34:00legal perspective, could a developer develop a workforce housing product without any type of Laura. Absolutely. You could. I mean Uh under SB one oh two, if you if you again if you were just seeking the tax exemption and that was enough to make your deal financially viable, you could go out and do that. My understanding so far is that under S B one oh two, the enforcement is gonna be kind of a dual uh between the the the county property

1:34:30appraiser's office and Florida Housing. It's gonna be kind of a joint. uh compliance. in in terms of how, you know, to make sure that you get the tax exemption for those units that you've committed between the eighty and hundred and twenty percent AMI.

1:34:46Yeah. I I'm aware that in under one or two it's those the two entities that enforce the tax exemption, but You're making a commitment in the comp plan Presumably to the county. that you're gonna provide at least fifty percent affordable. So I'm trying to figure out how we're gonna enforce Your commitment.

1:35:05Yeah, no, I it's a great point. I mean I I think that uh What our attorney recommended in terms of you know maybe that a a thirty year commitment or something like that. Um And again th that's just because for us we would absolutely be comfortable with that because we know that we plan to develop this product or this project with some form of state or federal money. So for us it's not a big deal to commit to a thirty year research. Should be

1:35:33comfortable with thirty years through a lurra.

1:35:36The commitment

1:35:36th to the county that you would

1:35:38do those things. Absolutely. Okay. Yeah, that's not a problem for us at all. Again Some other developers, I mean, I I you guys are probably aware, and if not, you're gonna be soon. There's a lot of market rate developers who have no idea what AMI and affordable housing are that are getting ready to be moving into this space because of SB 102. Our attorneys, uh I mean we use um for our real estate attorney, we use Nelson Mullins, and they're a big, you know, throughout the throughout the country, and they're saying they're getting calls from developers from Texas, from everywhere that now wanna come do deals

1:36:08And these are market rate developers traditionally, but now they want to come do deals in Florida because of SB102. So and again those developers traditional market rate developers who are used to going out and raising equity in order to do their developments, they're not gonna do the same thing. They're not gonna do SB 102 the same way we would. Again, we're gonna pair it with state and federal funding because that's how we operate. develop their S B one oh two projects like a traditional market rate project where they're gonna raise

1:36:38equity from limit partners and then Yeah, again, sell that property probably at completion and lease up you know, but again that's that's not that's not what we do, so that's why we're fine committing to a thirty year

1:36:51Well and I would like to thank you on behalf of our board for doing it on residentially zone property. Because Santa Bell one or two allows you to do um Commercial and industrial property and which our board is not a fan of. So I appreciate you doing this on Residentially zone property.

1:37:07Thank you.

1:37:11Okay.

1:37:15Any comments, questions?

1:37:19For discussion. I mean, I feel a little uncomfortable with approving something that we don't know how it's gonna be enforced. Um Personally.

1:37:31Yeah, to be to be clear. And I he actually his comments were helpful to me 'cause it sounds like he's agreeable to a thirty year Lura to enforce it. That is how we would recommend you enforce this restriction. I think the subway policies need to be modified to say that. My only heartburn about just putting that in there today has nothing to do with this gentleman or Shelley or anybody in this room it has to do with I gotta find some department that's willing to enforce it if they don't

1:38:01do financing. Right. That's an internal county issue. The My personal opinion is I don't know that you should slow it up Solely because There's no department here standing up saying I'm willing to enforce it. 'Cause that's that's not their fault. That's our fault.

1:38:18Could we approve it pending

1:38:20Well I think that's what the earlier suggestion was that you approve it subject to the sub area policies. policies being amended to create an enforceable an enforcement mechanism post construction For a minimum of thirty years. Yeah. We we'll have to figure that out between now and the board meeting. Um If we can't find a d somebody willing to enforce it between now and the board member board meeting, I guess the board could Continue it. But I'm not saying you can't continue it. I'm not sure it's fair.

1:38:51Since he's verbally committing he'll do what I think needs to be done

1:38:57I'm not sure it's fair to hold them up because we haven't gotten our act together.

1:39:01Could the B C C in theory create an ordinance to where it becomes a code enforcement? Same deal. They can create an ordinance

1:39:07to

1:39:07enforce it.

1:39:09I'm not sure code enforcement's the best mechanism either. I think probably the Laura is the best mechanism as long as there's some notice to the county when They're renting out the project so we know what it's being rented for. Um

1:39:24But again this is this is not a

1:39:32is not a strictly a legal issue because Senate Bill one oh two, putting aside their project, it did create an additional The legislature just came in and said, County you shall do this. and we have to figure out how do we enforce it. This affordability requirement. And I'm not sure our community community development department is equipped to do it. They're equipped to

1:40:01affordability when they're providing money. They they do this already today. consistent with Mr. Middle's point if it's like some HUD financed or state financed project they have e existing enforcement nec mechanisms they use to ensure affordability. That's less clear how we would do that when They're not using as this gentleman said, now we're gonna start getting a bunch of them market rate Builders are gonna wanna do it. Probably just for the taxes.

1:40:27That's my concern is this is not the last project we're gonna have to do. This

1:40:30is probably not

1:40:30gonna

1:40:30this this is an issue that we're gonna they're gonna have to deal with in general. The good news is the law of sunsets.

1:40:37Ten

1:40:37years.

1:40:38Yeah. A lot of development happened ten years. So are are you comfortable that you could figure that out within two months? 'Cause this goes to the board on this

1:40:47I

1:40:47am

1:40:47comfortable that I can legally f figure it out. I'm that I'm positive. I can't commit to the community.

1:40:55spend the money to do it. That that's that's the issue. But At some point the county's gonna have to fill it figure this out because we've been told to do it. So we've got to figure out some way of enforce in s enforcing affordability Even when we don't have money tied to the deal.

1:41:17So

1:41:18Oh I mean personally for me I'm not necessarily comfortable holding it up if if Yeah, there there is that mechanism, but if we don't have a clear path to kinda how the how it being enforced, then that's a whole different

1:41:32whole

1:41:32different story.

1:41:33They think they can work it out before the BOC make a motion to approve it based on it getting worked out in amended sub area policies for enforcement prior to the BOCC meeting.

1:41:41And I'll second that motion. I think it's a fair motion. I think that we all can Well, I shouldn't say all, but It makes sense to move something forward. based on the and with our with the attorney indicating that he can legally find a way to do it.

1:41:58I will tell you that I believe it is a priority for the counting administrator to figure out how to implement the Live local act and I think there's actually meetings occurring as we speak. among staff on how we're gonna implement the Live Local Act. So

1:42:14Yeah, I I don't think it's it's something that is we're just letting languish So it just hasn't been figured out yet entirely.

1:42:31So

1:42:33Very good. Yeah, I just uh for for me personally, I just I I don't wan I wanna make sure that it's going there is going to be an enforcement mechanism. I don't want the board to be able to just pass it without one. That's the that's my problem. Because I think we own an obligation to those people that live in the neighborhood. to make sure that it's enforced.

1:42:55Well it was an excellent question, David. I'm glad you brought it up. I

1:43:00Not quite sure whether I'm gonna support the motion or not. I'm just gonna say one, I'm idol ideologically opposed to this type of development to begin with. Because I don't believe affordable Housing housing is not made affordable by redistribution of the wealth. Housing is made affordable by innovation. And a real tough look at our 1500 plus page land development code. Every one of those things imposes a cost. And I will

1:43:30tell you in being in this business That the biggest effect On the cost Of living or the cost of a home is called the Florida Building Code. And I think the legislature needs to go back and take a big, strong, hard look at the Florida Building Code and how it impacts cost.

1:43:57Yeah.

1:44:02past I had had some property that I w would consider th that I owned, rented out, and uh

1:44:14And it was definitely affordable housing. Yeah, basically it was section eight housing. But sometimes those individuals that that's all they can afford at the time and And I know where you come from, John, but uh

1:44:29I just see it as an opportunity for this particular area up here to develop land that's gonna be for

1:44:38For rent. There's a hospital in the area. And in my mind I see kind of nurses going through there a lot. I don't know why. But I see that one profession is nurses needing a place that they can afford. And they may imp this may benefit them. I think if a broader picture was available In my mind I probably would be in the Uh mind not to approve something like this, based on some past experiences I personally have had. But given to the

1:45:08hospital, given medical staff. Giving that this transportation site in there, I could see it being a positive for the area. So that's That's how I see it.

1:45:21It

1:45:21could

1:45:21be wrong. Could be right. Any further discussion? Well called. Yeah, right.

1:45:34Okay, so if there's no further discussion, let's have a roll call vote. In favor, signify by saying aye w on on a roll call basis.

1:45:44Mr. Jamie Girardi? Aye. Mr. Dear Hotlet?

1:45:47Aye.

1:45:47Mr. Peter Mansell?

1:45:49Aye.

1:45:50Mr. John Moody? Nay. Mr. Christopher Poole?

1:45:53Aye.

1:45:54Mr. Chris Williams?

1:45:57Bye.

1:45:58And Chairman Charles Gray.

1:46:03Okay, I think the eyes have it.