ADU draft ordinance discussion
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The county’s agenda for Planning Commission, Jan 9, 2025
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about accessory well units and new organs that we've been on with relatively soon. Uh the last planning commission in Dade and City there was a government plan uh amendment that was coming forward to help support that which I believe all of you supported. Um more detail and discussion on accessory units uh
here um I will also say that my talk average is one hour.
Um so uh ear to answer any questions uh as we gentlemen have time to propose uh the current draft ordinance. And if so, uh any questions you'd like uh we can try and help answer or any discussion we'd like to do specifically with cover and uh
It's being removed.
Yeah, so uh this version that you are seeing is based off of work we probably did a week ago. In that week, uh there are some changes that you don't see here, but there is a condition there about architectural controls and all that kind of stuff. Um We're gonna remove that in its entirety from ADUs and the architectural controls in terms of uh our M our current MPs and approval uh are going to be
Okay.
why you haven't touched any company still have it.
Uh in terms of conventional Can apply a special exception before these connections game. So let's say we know our current cap is 900 square feet or BQ. So we want to do 1200 to make it wide for a special exception there if you want to.
A one. So one, A through D are set in stone for just outright you're allowed to do it. But if you want a D D are not D D if you want a special exception, you want to do it.
Yes, you can get above nine hundred square feet by special exception.
What's right?
Mm-hmm. Mm.
If the situation is appropriate as means, so by the community commissioner.
So you know almost one feet
Basically. No, no, it's not what I'm discussing.
I would like it to but it's generally a fixed foundation.
Sorry.
Or some type of camera.
Sure, yeah, and and again I think building code is generally not where I uh know most about so maybe
maybe some consultation with the building official on how to deal with that
Noted.
Okay, all right. Um thank you.
Sure, so um
I don't think we were planning on having any sort of transportation analysis tied to the ADU, so that's probably something we weren't intending to look at. And then uh in terms of stormwater and and that type of thing, um, you know, any any structure over five hundred square feet when it's uh going through permitting already is required to have some sort of plan shown going through the building department. So I If it were in an area that would impact software and have engineers over the department that could help you.
Now I go in and I go into an ex and Let me use the One example it's a timber oaks basin of special concern or Since Mr. Bultorak is here at the Tank Lake one. So We go in and we start building accessory dwelling units in the tank lake basin of special concern. and now I've created a bunch of stormwater runoff. Nine oh two point two K or whatever the section that requires the grading plan doesn't require somebody provide
a stormwater management analysis and a retention pond and design to the twenty five year, twenty four hour storm. It makes them grade the site so that they don't create an adverse off site immediate off site impact to their neighbor or something. And so I that was one of my concerns when we had the comp plan discussion last time. about A DUs and especially with them not counting towards density because like I said, when The reason that we the reason that we limit density and we look at
density in the area is because density has impacts which are associated with it. Stormwater being one of them. And I I'm fine with how we voted before, but I think David brings up a good point. I think There needs to be
some evaluation of whether The infrastructure of an area is problematic to supporting ADUs and I'm not suggesting that every ADU applicant should have to come in and do some sort of concurrency analysis. It should be that our county staff should identify areas where we have perhaps severely substandard infrastructure that isn't capable of supporting ADUs. Like for
instance, we have a street where we have known low water pressure problems and a two inch water line, maybe that's not the place we want to go at ADUs. Whereas any standard subdivision with eight inch water lines running up and down the streets that are capable of supplying fire hydrants, water is not a concern.
Sure. Understood. And uh
can I can just add to under cause your introductory clause does say ADUs are not appropriate in every situation due to existing site constraints or limitations imposed by these standards. So You're sort of recognizing that There could be areas where they're not appropriate.
Yes.
But then the substantive standards don't necessarily prohibit them in areas where they may not be appropriate?
So I I think that's just intended to provide clarity that uh when we say that if you can follow these standards, you're generally okay. It's just for those people that can't follow those standards, we want them to know it's just this location isn't right because of these standards below.
And I'm looking at your standards and I This is why I'm ultimately the root of my question, which is If somebody's adding an ADU on a known substandard flooded road,
mm-hmm.
Is staff okay allowing that?
S so and I will I think maybe something to help too uh something uh that uh a lot of people uh bring up when we kind of bring this idea forward to them. Uh utilities is is a great example. Um you know, what's the difference between this and an addition to your home? Right? We don't go in and look at every single situation where someone's adding another room to their home and because it's in the uh a a certain sub-basin, we say you can't, as
far as I'm aware that you can't do it. So um you know like utilities when we said utilities you know is this gonna be an issue with you they said then it's just it's another room on a house. We don't care if it's attached, detached above, it's just another room. Um is how a lot of people look at it. So and I'm not saying no and we I'm not saying we can't look into those things, but um I just I I worry about uh coming up with a regulation that would account for all of those potential situations if
you position is it your position is it if it's a nine hundred square foot
Sure. A barn, uh an addition to your bedroom.
Sure. And that's why we're again one of the reasons to handle the density issue is we're we're trying to limit the size of them to nine hundred square feet. Uh I believe when the nine hundred number uh came up previously when that was developed, that was uh something fairly small. It's not the size, you're not gonna have your three bedroom home, you're not gonna have kids and as big of an impact on
Drive through Jasmine Lakes.
Uh
I have
to do that.
Sure. And it's
people did raise families in those. And I get a kick out of this. I'm actually looking at the introductory statement in the intent and purpose. The missing middle housing type. Our problem with housing types is we don't have any entry level housing types. Alright, it's not that we're missing the middle. housing type.
Sure. I don't disagree.
Nine hundred square feet for an ADU is more than generous. And I can tell you that there are a lot of families who raise their entire families in nine hundred square feet or less.
Sure.
Yeah. This is really a policy issue, Retrick. I'm not trying to weigh in one way or the other. I'm just asking you what your response is. If we get a neighbor saying, Why did you allow an additional ADU on my substandard flooded road, I wanted to know what your response was. And your response is it's the equivalent of adding a bedroom, basically.
Sure.
Well, how big's a bedroom?
I'm sorry?
How big's a bedroom?
Um, I don't know off the top of my head. I I've seen a different floor plan. I mean,
ten by ten? That's a hundred, hundred and fifty square feet. That's not nine hundred square feet. Sure. The reason the code wants a drainage plan at five hundred square feet is because there is impacts. Mm-hmm. Right, Mr. Poom? Right.
Yeah, w we're just trying to um of course as as we do uh balance opinions and preferences to find a good middle ground. Um we've landed on nine hundred. Uh could that potentially go lower? Sure. Could it go higher? Absolutely, but currently staff's position is nine hundred. Um and you know, just based off of
Don't get me wrong. Sure. I'm not opposed to it being nine hundred or twelve hundred or twenty
Mm-hmm.
I I this goes back to the statements that I made during the initial the the comp plan amendment portion of this. These things are not impactless. They do have impact. They do. And there has to be some way of evaluating whether or not their impact is negligible. or require some sort of mitigative strategy. Sure.
Yeah, I know all the I don't know if there's anybody enough people in Timber Oaks that are here listening to me. But Timber Oak. Basin of special concern was never a concern when I was growing up. You know when it became a concern? became a concern when everybody in Timber Oaks decided to take their nine hundred square foot retirement house Add another bedroom, add a swimming pool, widen the driveway to three cars wide. I don't want
any green grass to mow around my retirement home, so now I'm gonna put asphalt down in white rock on top of it, just like they did in all the ones in holiday, and then we wonder where all the stormwater came from. They can they continue to do it to themselves. Sure. So this is a this is a a recipe to add to that. I'm not saying this is a disaster, and I will tell you I support ADUs, but I think there has to be some method of evaluating whether or not they have s some impact. on
the infrastructure and if all of a sudden everybody in the neighborhood decides to have an ADU what am I doing with double the amount of cars in the neighborhood? We've already got people complaining about traffic problems.
There may be a solution. I mean it depends on what's down ones to do. But I mean in theory you could give some delegated authority to the county administrators doesn't need to say that in areas with known infrastructure deficiencies that they have the authority to require a special exception for the approval of the ADU. I mean you you kinda do this a little bit with um I've seen it done with MPUDs and substantial,
non substantial deviations to amendments to MPUDs. There's a catch all at the end of the MPUD criteria for what's a substantial amendment that says that if the county administrator designed determines it's substantial, it's substantial. There's some delegated authority to say, hey, this is a problem, I want to do this to go to the board. And so I think you in theory you could do something similar with this and say give the county administrators some delegated authority that if
there's a known infrastructure deficiency that they have the authority to say that even an ADU under 900 square feet requires a spectral exception to be approved.
Wouldn't we need criteria to define define what is substandard of like in this instance, wouldn't we need to know what that is? Because I might have a different opinion.
I think that would be helpful. I mean you could say known
in the I think it would be helpful isn't maybe if you consult with the other departments, public works, utilities, and get some input from them as to where they have known issues. Now perhaps they have plans to correct issues. But if there are areas where there is, like I said, constant low water pressure problems or sewage
pumping stations that are continuously a problem for them that maybe maybe it's not good to flood it that area with ADUs until those things can be corrected.
Okay. Yeah we can and just so you know we we have talked to quite a few departments, haven't asked that specific question, um, but we can definitely circle back and do that.
But it but to answer your question, yes, I don't have a problem if you want to itemize the potential infrastructure deficiency such as You know. Water pressure, storm you know, flooding firefighting water supply. I mean water supply. I mean I we kind of all know what those things are because
I guess is those are the same kinds of things that have caused the Planning Commission to deny re rezoning effects. Sure. Um Timber Oaks is a perfect example because we denied the rezoning because of the those roads were flooded. Um so
I I don't where I disagree slightly with Mr. Mooney's I don't know that you have to identify every geographic area of the county where there's known deficiencies. But I think if you give the county administrators a design authority to Say I this one's a problem because of the infrastructure I think it needs to go through the special exception process.
That probably addresses at least a l large part of the easement.
I like you're thinking, David, the c the question I have is more one of practice. So they come down, I assume if someone wants to build an ADU They go down and they fill out a building permit application. That's
correct.
So How does the guy at the that takes in the application at the building department counter know whether or not there was a a known infrastructure problem? Does that do you have to create some other review process?
Uh there is a team in the building department that looks at zoning issues, yes. You say yes.
So it's not the zoning department that reviews it, it's the building department.
Yeah, w there there are people in bed in the building department that specialize in looking at setbacks and all that kind of stuff. And if there's something that they can't handle, they'll reach out to the zoning team with planning PDEG to help assist.
Well is there a way after I mean 'cause like we have training patients of special concern and we have um
criteria for when I vote is substandard. I mean we have criteria
in our code about certain problematic areas of the county or problematic infrastructure deficiencies. Sure. Is there a way to tie it to to those sort of objective standards about
a substantive road or subst or, you know, transmission of special concern or um
I've seen other code re references to known flooded flooding areas too. I mean
It we can look into to that to see if that is something that we can add to this code to to solve that issue. Um we can definitely look into it.
Those are those are all things that you can identify up front too.
Right, I'm just trying to think, is there something that we could point to that it'd be easier for a zoning technician to say, hey, here this one's mapped this one's in a map transformation of special concern. I need to go see whether this one needs a special exception or not. I need to go ask Terry.
Almost like another layer on the map or something like that as they're as they're taking something.
Yeah, again, I I think it's we would need to identify what those criteria are that make something appropriate for an ADU ADU location in that area or not. again we could do that. Um but You know, uh just to paint a a bigger t picture too, um, because again hearing the last planning commission um there are concerns about we're gonna be seeing a a whole lot of ADUs in the county pop up. Um we actually reached out to our neighbors that actually have ADUs on the books and asked them numbers. You know, what are you what
are you looking at? Um so uh Penellas County in the last year, roughly a hundred. Uh Hillsboro between 150 and 200. Um County wide. County wide. Polk, I think it was fifty. Sumter.
How long have they been on those rules been on the book?
Um I don't know for each one. I obviously they've all adopted their ordinance at different times. Per year. Per year.
Per year. But I I'd argue the the areas where the ADUs will pop up in Pasco would be areas that w might have the issues that we're we're talking about.
What would tell you is this. That's the ones who did it legally. Sure. Because I can tell you right now and you drive you wanna drive in my neighborhood, there's a lot of ADUs out there that may not may or may not fit the definition of this code and there's a lot of ones that are unpermitted. Well you ra and you raise a not endemic just to my neighborhood. I can tell you it's all over the place.
Yeah you raise a very good point. That's something that the building department deals with on a daily basis is you know the definition of what a dwelling unit is has is cut so thinly that basically as long as you don't have a certain electrical um service and you don't have cabinets then you're not an A to you. But people always go in and add them anyways and after the fact So
at least this gives there are ADU's path to citizenship. So that's
a good way to
look at it. I don't think it's that hard to figure out when somebody has a TED shed and they put in a window bang or air conditioner and there's lights on and you can see the pipes coming out the back headed to the septic tank. That that's an ADU. Sure.
Okay. But that goes back to what I was gonna mention. That's what I was gonna mention before too, was you know Is there you know, I understand there's our neighbors and adjacent to us that have implemented these recently. Do we have any data um you know at more of an aggregate level from other municipalities, maybe not even in Florida, that have had these rules on the books for a lot longer and just to see what kind of impact 'cause I think all the concerns around here about impact to infrastructure. uh if these become widespread.
So the question would be how widespread and and historically speaking, and these values that approve these, how widespread did they truly become and before it hit a saturation level?
Um I don't know if you know that answer, but but I don't have specific numbers off the top of my head, but from what I gather it's negligible. Right? If if it were such a concern in all of these counties, they would be updating their ordinances to say, oh we got a problem, we gotta change this and and get rid of this.
Okay.
So Excellent.
It might be a of large impact on the m uh micro level. But on the macro level you're saying it's it's negligible. Based on
I I d I mean both. I mean I I again there's a barrier entry of of cost. A DUs aren't cheap to do. Going through the permitting process costs money to do. Um and then having the appropriate size land to do it. Um You know, we we just don't foresee uh thousands of ADUs being applied for So then how are we
meeting your goals and objectives of providing additional housing and providing the missing middle and all of this other good
every every drop in the bucket is another layer added. So this is one way to get to where we need. Are there other policies that we absolutely want to adopt to increase housing stock? Absolutely. This is just
Sure. And why don't we Test the temperature of the water first. And why don't we just do them all by special exception so that we can get an eye get an eye rather conditional use.
So that we can figure out, so that we can hear these things, figure out where neighbors have objections, where neighbors don't have objections, where these things become problems. If we're only expecting a few a year, well then that's just a few more special exception cases we hear. And then we're not fully committed. to something and have to go back just like we talked about with Connected City now to try to fix something that's broken.
That may cre increase the barrier of entry to even doing this in the first place. Then we go back to the people that are doing them on permanent which they're
doing any
scared Liam to death too by just saying that. Just saying that
I was involved in the creation of some of our infrastructure regulations and I almost hate saying this, but Maybe it's not the end of the world if you have another EDU on a subtraction world. I mean to me The real issue I'm worried about is flooding. I mean because Permeable. B because if somebody puts an ADU in a flood in a flood prone area, that's more people we gotta rescue. It's more people that we maybe have to buy out if we have to buy out the lot because
it flooded, or the FEM has to come in. I mean Well
David, is there a provision against them putting a pool?
P
to you. No, a pool in a flood prone area. Is there a provision against that? Because maybe the maybe the trigger's the size.
And also to clarify too, they have to meet Florida building code. So i if it theoretically had to be elevated, it has to be elevated.
I understand but it's just Yeah, but I don't think you're understanding the point that every time every time I add another impervious surface I'm adding more runoff.
Adding more stormwater that has to go somewhere. That's right and if I'm in a bowl. It doesn't go anywhere.
Yeah, I but I'm just saying we I recall that we have mapped known flooded areas in our county. What is wrong with saying if they're in in one of those mapped known flooded areas that it requires a special exception? Nothing nothing.
Correct. I agree. We can do that. We can establish I'm gonna use the word loosely in like overlays such as that that can control where ADUs can occur. You can also control the type of ADU that takes place based on where they are. So for example, if if stormwater drainage is a concern, perhaps only ADUs that fit on existing Uh no no adding new impervious service area, they're only on the existing that's
built up off the garage. Right. The garage is already there, they don't want to build it up the garage. They don't expand the footprint. Right. You can do things like that too. So like in if if the drainage of special concern example that we're talking about here um
is illustrative of the of the situation, you could say only ADUs that have that sit on the existing footprint can occur here. Now if if we have other concerns such as um you know, flooding flood rescue situations. Maybe there's something more that we can uh research and develop.
And Terry, I'm not suggesting we need to come up with every special exception condition in the code. All I'm saying is, and I think the Mr. Moody's saying too is there should be some trigger where That particular ADU goes through a process that where we can look at what conditions do we need to impose on it to make sure it's not exacerbating the flooding in the area. So if we've got mapped areas of known transmission special currents or known flooded areas, I'm pretty sure sure I've
seen these maps before. Um maybe we just say if you're on one of those maps, notwithstanding all this, if you're on one of those maps you need a special exception approval for any. I would think
one of them would be density. Right? That's the most obvious that you know the more the more dense then the more impact than ADU would have pers per acre.
It's counterintuitive. I understand the drainage utility issues, those are valid issues. The question on density, however, is kind of counterintuitive. Usually, the higher the more density you increase, the more Bay you get for your infrastructure dollars. Meaning you have less infrastructure on the ground serving more people. So it's an inverted relationship with regard to density. What we're talking about here is low density suburban environments
that are going to add an ADU. So much of the literature, such as from the AARP, for example, they'll refer to that as being more efficient use of. Of the suburban infrastructure that's already in place. Because an ADU up to a certain dwelling or ADU dwelling unit size actually has less impact on the infrastructure than say brand new house on a fifty by one hundred twenty-foot block. Um so
there's a lot of
I would
I
was just thinking, you
know,
if you have five acre lots you add an eight a nine hundred square foot ADU, that's going, you know, for every let's say twenty percent of those five acre lots add an ADU. That's a lot different than twenty percent of the lots of quarter acre lots that are added in the ADU in terms of stormwater and things like that. Infrastructure maybe I that might make sense.
Yeah, and I think that there could be utility provision that you have to get utility approval.
Stormwater management is infrastructure. Okay. Right. What I what I would tell you, Terry, is Just speaking from general civil engineering practice. When I go into a neighborhood, a modern neighborhood, not one that was built in this not one that was built in Pasco County in the sixties or early seventies.
The water lines are sized for the fire flow. Okay, the amount we drink off the water line is really irrelevant. It's the amount of those water lines are sized to provide the flow needed for the fire hydrants. So there's very little impact to potable water. There are some older neighborhoods that I can think of in holiday and Hudson that have s very small lines without fire protection where that could potentially be a problem. Gravity sewer systems. probably
adding an ADU is not much of a problem. Pump stations. It can be a problem. A pump station is designed for a certain number of units. to discharge to it and it is not designed with additional volume inside that station to handle additional flows. So if we have if you take an older neighborhood Oh let's say like Embassy Hills or Regency Park. and I start
putting a bunch of A D Us in there, I could very quickly overwhelm sewage pump undersized sewage pumping stations that were never designed to accommodate That.
Adding additional stormwater runoff. in an area where we have open drainage systems in the big scheme of things probably doesn't do much, but in the smaller scale does. For instance, when you see that grate in the parking lot or that opening in the curb that lets the stormwater flow in, There's only so much capacity that that opening has. I start adding a bunch more, and that's what a lot of people saw during Milton.
There's a lot of people that weren't in flood zones that flooded, basically because your storm sewers, the storm sewer inlets, do not have the capacity to take in that much water that fast. So that backs up. So I think there is some concern over the Just stormwater, but So I'm with David maybe in just identifying the more problem neighborhoods, get with utilities, get with public works and stormwater to identify the problem areas and make them special exceptions there. I don't wanna make a I don't wanna make Mrs. Jones go
through a concurrency analysis to build an AVU by any means or any
So maybe between now and the time this gets to the body commission for real, um you can just have a conversation with utilities, stormwater, public works and say Okay, what are the areas of the county that you that are just so problematic you don't even want to add you don't want to add in any additional residential units to it? Let's see if they can come up with some description of what that is. And then you just say in your code, if you're in one of those areas, of
sewer flows water flows or you know, flood known flooded areas, um That you need a special exception to get the
year approval. And I would ask that that discussion not only include public works and utilities, but to speak with the Sheriff's Department
as well.
As well as
fire.
Uh and um one more question to that point. Um so in your um analysis of looking at other ADUs, um traditionally this was for extended family. I I guess you've seen most of these used for extended family. In other words, is there um has there been any significant impact to the schools? Um extra extra children.
Um We had this conversation, we did the school and five pre update and I think if they're around that nine hundred square foot level they're they they have an impact, there's no question. But we're the code says we're gonna assess them the multifamily rate, which that should address their impact. Okay. I think it
says it's does it say the multifamily or the single family? I thought it said single family.
If it's nine hundred or under it's gonna be multifamily.
Let me ask you on um says it a reduced.
Okay, where does
it say on the
two e?
Says it a reduced rate.
Oh I'm sorry, no, not two e three
three e three three. Can you put a three e because I don't have a three?
A D use my
respect of the actually access to the school impact fee at a reduced rate.
The reduced rate for school impact fee is the multifamily rate.
Oh, is that what that means? Yes. Okay.
I mean we could probably write that in just to make it clearer, but it's like to make it a little bit. The difference is that mobility has a special rate for ADUs. Oh, okay. For schools when it came through, you probably remember this discussion, Chris, but we We we assessed at the multifamily rate. And that's fine. So yes, it has an impact, but just it's a the terrier's point it's a lower impact than using for a single family homologo. So the assessing at the multifamily rate basically addresses their impact.
And and Derek, I asked the same question because I mean obviously if an N M B U D all of a sudden every one of those houses started doing ABUs it'd be a huge concern, but assuming that Um that's something we need to keep an eye on. But assuming that they don't generate lots of those, then we'd be okay. But if again,
well that's why I wonder what the actual impact is, because I figured if you look at empirical data of of other municipalities that have these ADUs, and I would assume most of the ADUs are being used for extended family, then it's not for cases. Right. Right. Right. So there I'm sure there's some, but it's a lesser impact than would be a of even multifamily is my guess. But I didn't know if there was that data that was out there for the easy thing.
I don't know that they have this when we discussed this for schools and we talked to Carson, I don't know that he has data specific to ADUs. But It may be that the ADU impact is even lesser than an apartment. That's what I thought, right? But I just promised we don't have the data, so the closest rate we could assign it was multi-family. Right, which is fair.
Patrick, let me ask this is this is a kind of complicated question.
Somebody lives in Beacon Woods and they come to the building department and say, I wanna close in my garage. and put in a Kitchen. and a bathroom so that my mother in law can live in there.
Mm-hmm.
And it's against the deep restrictions in the neighborhood.
Sure.
Does the what in question takes precedence?
Uh
well we have language clearly I understand deed restrictions are a civil matter, but I could see where all of a sudden we could start clogging up a bunch of courts if the building department isn't on its toes to say, hey, isn't that a deed restricted neighborhood? You need to come back here with a letter from your HOA or something like that. That
I mean, yeah. We generally do not enforce private restrictions. I I don't know whether the building department is asking for any proof of approval from
Whatever each away would have to approve it, right? Do you know Patrick whether we do this or
I I I don't know but I pro I doubt they are.
I mean it's understanding they are they are tasked with enforcing our land development regulations and the Ford Abuilding Code.
That's a big job for them as it is. I mean they it's it's gonna be difficult for them to then say, Oh, and we're gonna enforce some private D restrictions that
Yeah and I and I agree with you, I don't think the county should be in the business that's a civil matter and I've heard Jeff say it before that you know those are civil matters and that's not our issue as the county. But I think if all of this gets approved There needs to be very good communication with the public that just because our zoning code may allow for an ADU that doesn't mean you're off the hook with your HOA.
Sure. Um and I can hear Elizabeth Blair in the back of my head right now saying, look at this line. Um but uh we actually have that included in the in the text um in the last sentence of B. We say in addition, individual restrictive covenants may prohibit ADUs. So we have it in the language already.
That's your secret version?
Is it not in yours? Oh okay. Yeah.
That's the version he said members.
Oh there's a version they've
been working on in the last
few weeks.
I think before I went to ODT and got some additional good feedback. Um so yeah, there there is a Oh wait, yeah, it's there, right there. Um in addition, individual restrictive covenants may prohibit A to use. So in in that one, yes, it's still there.
End of end of B. Yeah. So we've warned people that it couldn't.
Do we need a definition for ADU somewhere? 'Cause like this is a 2B when the garage is converted to an ADU garage or selling room. I mean what makes it an ADU?
Uh yeah, and that's probably my fault for not including that. We have a an appendix definition. Um I just didn't include it in this document.
So I mean I can tell you from So we get lots of calls. There's lots of people that get themselves in trouble.
If you go down to the building department And you have a single family home. The minute you want to add another stove, another another way to cook in there, other than a microwave oven somewhere. But you wanna add a place for an appliance like a stove. or a range. That's their or All of a sudden I wanna add a bunch of two hundred and twenty volt. outlets
inside my garage. then that's their cue to figure out, hey, wait a minute, look at 'em, let's see if they're trying to close in the garage and make an apartment out of it. That's usually the dead giveaways. Yep.
Mm-hmm. Patrick along those lines I had a couple different questions. Okay, so when obviously my mind's going in the wrong direction here, but e ADUs I think of like an ADU is like somebody has a garage and they want to build out upstairs. Sure. Okay. Now they probably run across issues there if they're gonna do that for detached garage build out upstairs they probably run into problems with the nine hundred square feet. But the way this is written in in two B, when a garage is converted to an ADU, what how what the county's position, how are they gonna look at that? If somebody builds out upstairs above the garage, clearly you don't wanna
cl take out the garage door.
Yeah. Well yeah, I I think it's just the unit itself. I I So
it'll be the the upstairs only.
Well upstairs only nine hundred, yeah. It's not the entire destruction. The garage is still being used as a garage, it's garage. We wouldn't expect them to take that garage door off unless it was being used as a living court.
As the living court. And then I guess along those same lines under two E W what is an example of when an ADU is located within a single family dwelling? Is that just if somebody has a separate door going into like a garage if they take the garage door? Okay.
Yep.
Okay.
So I wasn't here to be a bunch of people that get a surprise when they have to turn that partition wall into a firewall and then run it all the way to the roof. It's not as pretty. It's not as simple as the zoning code maybe.
I wasn't here last time but I know I met with Denise and I don't know if you were involved in that maybe you're all but um So what are the thoughts on okay, I'm living next door to somebody now they're gonna build in their backyard, they're gonna build an ADU and now that kinda impacts my view.
Sure.
I mean how do we
Yeah, so we're um Uh some places make exceptions for setbacks. So some places for ADUs, let's say you have your principal building setbacks and let's say from the side it's twenty feet or something like that. Some municipalities and local governments will say for an ADU, you know what, we'll let you go a little bit closer to that property line. Um we are not planning on doing that. Uh our setbacks for ADUs are going to be the setback as the primary whatever I mean if your neighbor is coming in with the assumption that I'm not gonna see a home within twenty
feet of me, we wanna hold true to that. So we are using the primary setbacks to account for ADC.
So they they do have to use the principal structure setback, not the accessory structure setback. Yes, not the same. Okay, so here's a question. So I have a single family detached home. And I decide I want to build a Detached garage. That's an accessory structure. And I build it five feet from my property line as owned by the supplemental regs in the zoning code. Yep. Can I then turn that into an ADU?
So Liam, thank you very much for that support. Um so that uh setback provision is within the section that we allow for special exception. So if you want wanted to have a lesser side setback. Like if you wanted to take your current garage that's within five feet and you want to put an ADU on top of it, you will come in for a special exception and at the Planning Commission's discretion could theoretically approve it. Um but if they don't come in for a special exception, no.
Okay.
So at least you would get noticed, Chris.
Well you get to come.
Chris, the other thing is I mean it affects the school system. Chris, the other thing I would say is that keep in mind that somebody could just expand their house. Yes. As long as they're in the setbacks and and the height and everything else, there's not much that's allowed today.
Yeah, so that's that's basically the answer. They could have built their house and been in that right. Right. Been in that space already. Yes. Gotcha. Understood. Uh no thank you.
The we ask?
That's up to the chair.
We can. I've I think I'm timing, I think Patrick said he has seven minutes left on his battery. No, I'm just
gonna
come up. I'm just kidding, Nancy. Yeah, come up to the podium though, so we can get it.
Yeah,
We'll take public comment. That's fine. Just keep it a three minutes, please.
I stepped in on a couple minutes late.
Um just quick couple of things. I've been investing in real estate for probably twenty-five years now. I don't have the engineering uh background you guys do with specs on it, but there was a couple of things that I just wanted to do. Wanted to mention, maybe it works into your discussion, maybe it doesn't. First off, um I think a lot of this comes down to intent instead of specific application when we're talking about a large uh
Seems like s uh single minded
document like this. Um to Mr Moody's point, a twenty by fifteen master bedroom, a ten by ten kitchen, and a ten by nine bath is four hundred and ninety square feet. If it really is for a family member, I'm not sure how much bigger that needs to be. Just wanted to throw that out there. So it seems like a lot of this is proactive versus reactive. We're being reactive to current issues in the county. So we're trying to be proactive. But we're Possibly maybe being a little bit too reactive
in the situation. Potentially, I see three different style ADUs being put up here in one uh wave here, but maybe we need to look at garage ADUs, additions to homes, and detached as separate categories. And the reason I say that is would a freestanding ADU potentially benefit from having a minimum lot size. The If it was freestanding, should it be allowed to be
placed in a current flood zone, even if it's AE or otherwise? Um Should a density cap I didn't see if there was a cap on the uh number of ADUs, but is there a density cap on the ADUs per parcel, specifically parcel size, to prevent somebody with five or ten acres from putting ten ADUs on their property? potentially a registration process. so that we can track known impact, utilities, stormwater, schools.
so that we can still monitor for the impact to the area. Potentially there's a way to You'd know better than I. But what if it was an ADU based C O What I mean by that is
Maybe these could be attached to homesteaded properties only to prevent the investors from turning them into three or four rental units. So if it was like an ADU CO on the unit, if you move and sell the property, the next person could use it as an office space, but if they want somebody to live in it full-time, it would have to be homesteaded to them, and that keeps the property owner there and tracking use. Yeah. Um
Revenue basis is an item that does concern me, and maybe a public workshop to hear from interested parties that want to do this in the future can provide some examples of how they would apply it before a single document uh gets put into place over all of those different projects. Thank you.
It brings up a good point and I you know I kinda glossed over this. I think there was a some language in here that if you subdivided it then the ADU would then become a principal structure.
Yeah, uh it's uh and I'm sorry I didn't get all I was trying to write down as fast as I could. Um I didn't get all of them. So if there's something I didn't address, let me know. Um so yeah, there's language in there that basically is uh you know what oftentimes will I would assume is going to happen, someone's gonna have their primary structure and then they're gonna build an ADU and then fifteen years down the road they're gonna wanna sell that ADU. We're just putting language in there that says you need to follow the subdivision process. So that's what that language is.
Why don't you regulate condos currently anyways, I think there's
actually there's actually case law that says that even if they condo, they still have to meet our land development regulations. They can't create a s a lot that would violate our
Well a condo's not a lot. You own your you own your three dimensional space. That's that's townhouses. Townhouses are fee simple where we own the land. under the lot. They may have common walls, but in a condominium, it's common ownership of the building. It's one ownership of the building, but you have ownership rights to your interior space that's different. And as but it's essentially the same thing.
What's the oh I mean what so what's the issue? They wouldn't be permitted another ADU just because they comprehensive
as a backdoor way to subdivide and sell property. I see Denise back there.
And what's so I think you should have language in there that you can't go turn these things into housing co ops or condominiums either.
Okay, we can look into that.
Okay. Um some of the other ones I I I sort of picked up. I think um one was you know what stops someone from adding multiple ADUs to the site. We have language in here that you can only have one ADU per parcel. Um in terms of tracking ADUs, uh the when we're going over this with the building departments, um they're planning on creating a new record type for ADUs um to help track accessory dwelling. So right now the record type to submit a new home is called ResNew. Um they're gonna probably create a new record
type for ADUs to help better track ADUs and which will help out. Um Mr Williams there um trying to figure out how much of an impact this is having on uh the school board. So I think uh that's what the building departments plan is there. I know there are other questions, I'm sorry if I I missed them. Um if anyone remembers them I can try and answer them but
I do want to be clear because a couple of times folks have made comments today that this is for family members and There's nothing in this code that restricts it to being for family members and that is very problematic to have to regulate.
Um but it does say that if you want to use them for vacation rentals, that you do need to go through the conditional use
process. That's that's different. But if somebody wants to rent it to their friend versus their family member, we are not going to regulate that. I don't know how you would. Well I agree with you.
your mother in law or your sister, but regulating whether some it's your sister using it or your sister's best friend is not easy to regulate. And so it's not there's nothing in these regulations that requires it to
Well but one of the things he brought up was doing a you had to have homestead on the property in order to limit an investor from having multiple rentals on one property.
Uh on one property or multiple properties? Because we're only gonna have one investment.
And then adds
an ADU and then he rents out the house and he rents out the ADU.
If you own ten houses you can effectively have twenty units just like that.
Yeah. That's
a good
question.
That's a
good question for Mr. Wells. If you have an ADU, do you get to claim homestead over the ADU?
I d wouldn't know the answer to that if scenarios. I mean
keep
in mind everybody I mean
obviously this is definitely.
Yeah, there there are tons of different variations and restrictions that are added to ADUs. Different communities have different things that they're concerned about. Um, is this theoretically something that could be added to ours? Sure. But right now our current stance was definitely more uh less restrictive in terms of not necessarily monitoring who is residing in that ADU or or anything like that, with the exception of the vacation rental. Um that's just currently what we're at.
Remember this is a land development code. We're not trying to regulate how something is taxed in our land development code. So I uh if Mr. Wells alerts us that this is a problem, we can See if there's something he wants us to change.
But as a general rule Yeah. If they're not homestead if they're gonna be paying us more taxes.
Yeah.
So I'm not sure that's the end of the world.
We used to live on a lot that had a what amounted to an accessory dwelling and they figured it out. Yeah. And they didn't homestead the whole thing. There was a portion.
So Denise Hernandez, Code Compliance or Code Yeah, Code Compliance Department. So I just wanted to mention that we do have a a scheduled meeting to speak to someone at the property appraiser's office to discuss some of these items because we do want to make sure that they are putting that on their tax rolls and everything else. Um so so that is something that that is going to happen uh shortly.
Thank you, Denise. Glad you're here. Nancy, did you want to come up too?
Nancy Hayeswood, [address removed]. Um So I was looking at A and I was wondering how encouraging fill development meant. Is that open space? That worries me. Um of course I'm thinking about how would this affect the rural protected area? and how it would be used out there. I know in Tampa I saw where they did these
um as a l a little subdivision. And I was wondering about that too. So anyways, those are just a couple of my thoughts. Thank you.
Okay, just to answer the last question, uh tiny subdivisions. This uh ADUs couldn't be tiny subdivisions. I think you're probably thinking about like a tiny home community or something like that. Um this would just be an accessory structure to a single family home lot. Um and again I forgot. Well the first question again was um
infill development.
Infill. Yeah.
Sure, yeah.
Um, but yeah, s some parts of the can uh the county trying to get additional density where we need it, uh that type of thing. Um so uh uh like I said, I think this goes back to Judging from other local governments, um, w we don't expect to see an overwhelming amount of these, so we think the impact is gonna be relative very, very minimal, probably not noticeable. To mister Moody's point, uh people are basically already doing
this already. They're just not including a uh two hundred amp electrical unit and they're using a microwave instead, you know, so um you know we get And they're not paying us the impact fee. And they're not paying us the impact fee. Um
Yeah.
Patrick, do you have an idea or is there a timeline for this to come back to the Planning Commission for approval?
Um, I am going to be taking it to a horizontal round table whenever the next I think that's next week. Yes. And horizontal is my last step and then I am currently working on creating the agenda to officially get this on the Planning Commission agenda. Um so I am trying to move as fast as I can. Uh like you said we'll have those other conversations with some of those other departments, maybe add to the special exception. There'll maybe some tweaks along the way but I envision what you see is not changing
drastically. Um so soon.
Okay. So just one request. I one I appreciate you acknowledging that there could be restrictive covenants over a neighborhood that prevent the A B U. The other thing I've been following the Facebook discussion. on ADUs. There are a lot of people Who are of the impression, I'm not saying it's the right impression, but
the mistaken impression that allowing A D Us means that they're going to be able to park an RV in their yard and rent that out to or a travel trailer. That's not the way I read the ordinance. I don't believe that's the intent of this ordinance.
Fixed foundation. So but yes
we'll so if you'll work on that language to make sure that that's very clear that you can't do that. Right. And and you know the building official made needs to make it clear, you know, camping trailers are for temporary camping. They're not meant to be living units. That's why we have a building building.
Very good. All right, well thanks. Did anybody else can anybody else have anything else?