PM 26 lot sizes and townhome architectural standards

1:12:53Okay, well thank you again for the

1:12:55opportunity. Thank you. We'll move on to uh regular item thirty-seven.

1:13:10Good morning, Mr. Chairman Mariano Victorious Pitos, Planning and Economic Growth Department.

1:13:19So at the August 8, uh 2023 Board of County Commissioners meeting, the BCC directed the Planning and Development Department to implement PM 26 single-family detached and attached lot sizes and allowances and MPUDs. And at the time The Board of County Commissioners was primarily concerned with the proliferation of lot sizes that were 40 feet wide, and thus we had to create a policy memo that clarified the circumstances under which uh we would support those lot sizes. Recent

1:13:50development activity, however, has seen proposed lot sizes that are less than forty feet wide. And questions have arisen as to the applicability of PM26 and how to handle those lot sizes that are less than the BCC's tolerance for 45-foot-wide lots, or in some circumstances, even for 40-foot-wide lots. And so the specific issue is regarding lot sizes in the 30 to 40-foot-wide range today. So we're bringing forward policy memo 26 to do a small tweak,

1:14:20a revision. Basically PM 26 is going to be revised. Uh and amended to state that the lots that are essentially thirty to forty feet wide, or another way to say it is forty feet wide or less, um will be allowed only if they are rear loaded lots. And so these are the proposed text edits to uh PM26 just to see the exact language. Uh in addition to making the uh revision

1:14:51for the lot range, lot size range that we've that I've just talked about, um, we're also making two small edits to the uh townhome portion of policy 9126. One is to clarify that townhomes shall be platted. And a second revision is as it relates to the architectural appearance of townhomes. Currently, uh as illustrated on the overhead, the revision is to say a two or more story townhome building shall not be entirely stucco,

1:15:21but shall have a different first-floor architectural veneer, such as brick or siding, with stucco reserved for the upper levels of the building. Uh the intent for this provision uh to be up is to be applicable for the front facade of the first story or first floor elevation of the townhome. And we can make this clear in the articulation of the memo with confirmation from the board. Um my suggestion to make it a little bit more clear is to break it up a little bit. Uh to something to this

1:15:51effect. Uh a two or more story townhome building shall not be entirely stucco on the front facade of the townhome. The first story architectural veneer shall be different from the upper levels of the building. Heavier architectural elements shall be on the first story, and lighter architectural elements allowed on the upper levels. These veneers can be brick, stone, siding, or other material that is identified by the building. Mm-hmm. Uh and so that's the three vi revisions, very narrow uh focus on uh policy memo

1:16:22twenty six that's before the board today. I don't know. Any questions?

1:16:25You're talking about stucco. If it was stucco on the top, but then it'd be Some board or some other kind of texture on the bottom? Is that on the sides, front sides and

1:16:37so the idea is not to have a full facade of a townhouse building to be all stucco? but rather the first floor might have brick, let's say, and then the upper level might have stucco, right? Or it might have brick insiding. War might have siding in Stucco. Or might have stone and stucco. Any combination, just the heavier element ought to be on the But

1:16:58does that include the sides of the town hall?

1:17:01No, this would just be for the first or the front of the

1:17:03front? For the front? What about the rear?

1:17:06Uh It wouldn't it as I've suggested not necessarily for the rear, although one could contemplate if a townhouse did f a rear of a townhouse did face Um uh a road, a collector road, let's say, or an arterial. However, uh it's most likely to be the case that the rear is going to be fenced or there may be a rear garage that'll block the facade of the rear. So

1:17:36the primary focus is as is the front facade. Okay. Mr. Starkey.

1:17:44Um, I think this is a very good clarification. Um, but there's a couple of things that

1:17:51Um I don't have any issue with hardy plank or uh something similar being on the top Top.

1:18:02tabby or stucco on the bottom and hardy plank on the second. So Um I wouldn't put rock or brick on the second, but I would do allow a hardy plank.

1:18:14Lateral s um siding. I personally um I I did get a call from TBBA and I know there's some hesitation for um putting it on the sides, but I think that we should wrap the corner. Um Maybe Four feet. Or something. I don't know I don't know what the good number is for construction material if things come in a certain size. But just wrap the corners. Um And I I have some I have a photo here of uh uh

1:18:44town home product where Um the windows were put in f flat. I mean they are on the same plane. as the building. And that that is really Like mobile home construction. And I think that the windows We we need to not allow that kind of window unless Um but I I would allow I would say I think there should be an exception in all of this. And that is um if someone is building

1:19:15A um 40 or 60 to 80 AMI, say say eighty AMI and under, I think they should have some relief from some of the architectural. um restrictions that we have because because we do have a need for for that product and Uh I don't think we'll get a lot of it, but we need to be able to help that part of the industry um Build build their pro build their product. But Oh okay, so here's some of the photos

1:19:45that I have. I just wanted to show you guys These are These ones up top. are in long leaf. And they're on thirty two foot wide lots. So you can build a very cute product, a v a very attractive product. А на а a smaller lot as long as they're rear loaded. But you see what they did on on the sides? Um The the uh material continues. Now Now you were talk you were talking about townhomes they don't have to

1:20:15wrap. Um And I think you uh I'd like to get a picture of the what I'm talking about with the windows. But you can see these windows have bandings around them. Th there's some there's some builders out there who aren't doing that. Um anywhere on their houses. And I I feel the windows need to have some kind of banding. Otherwise it's really Really looking cheap. Um there might be another picture.

1:20:41Are the are those uh rare loaded town homes, that's what they were?

1:20:44Uh those are rare loaded ho single families. Single family. Um now here's some rear loaded town homes in Asturia. And you can see these townhomes wrapped they did put the um uh treatment on the side. They didn't and this is what I'm talking about where you have stucco on the bottom and siding on the top. Um And they they did turn the corner, so you know, I don't know I don't know if you really want to not have anything on the

1:21:14sides. Um but the garages they just have the banding around the door but not none it none of the uh treatments so Let's see if there's any other pictures. Um, these are a Taylor Morrison product. This is um Thirty five foot wide. Homes.

1:21:38um shingle on the top and stucco on the bottom. And I think I personally think that's okay. I don't think you would ever put rock or brick on the top, but shingle and sighting. In my mind. Is okay. Um now you can see they didn't put it on the side. Well they did wrap the p the the area by the front door. But they did band. somewhat ban the windows and th and there's some relief in um

1:22:09They don't look like they're just flush with the with the wall. I'm not a builder. I don't know if there's any builders here. But I think we should at at the very least have some kind of trim around the windows on the site. That's kind of my My point. And here's the houses from the back. These are rear loaded houses. and um they don't have any of the treatment in the back, but they did ban the windows on the second floor.

1:22:42Thank you, Commissioner. I've uh taken the notes. Um In the uh original language of the memo. I could see how there would be this conflict between the upper and uh lower level uh in the revised language We're we're noting that heavier architectural elements shall be on the first story, so the brick and the stones. And lighter architectural elements a lot on the upper levels and then I made a a note to say that sighting and shingles, et cetera, may be on the upper levels.

1:23:13ideas if the if the board would confirm those as well.

1:23:16And and I don't think they should be painted shingles. I think they have to be like real shingles. I mean I don't mean they have to be operable shingles, but And and going through some of my photographs of driving around the county. Yeah. There's some builder that's painting, just painting it so it looks like a shingle, but it really isn't.

1:23:32I didn't know it was the shhingle or shutter.

1:23:35Shutter. Shingle. I don't know. What's the difference?

1:23:40Th there's shingles, there's shakes. Shakespeare? Yeah. Shakes. And then there's shutters. Shutters are e

1:23:47Oh yeah, the shutters. I'm saying they're they're painted on shutters. I can s I can send the picture over. Yeah, okay. Okay.

1:23:54All right. Sure. Yes. Thanks, Chair. Terry, four point five talked Talks about forty four to less. Our board policy is nothing less than forty five feet. So when it says Less than forty feet. Uh support developments, single family detached lots. What are we saying

1:24:13here? So in PM twenty six uh we put our red line as forty five foot wide lots. Anything less than the forty five foot wide lots needed to have Over a certain threshold, which I believe was 50%, needed to be rear loaded. We also make allowances in PM26 to allow 40-foot-wide lots. For example, in the 55-plus community, you could still do a 40-foot-wide lot. Other developments, more recent developments, have uh proposed less than 40-foot-wide

1:24:43lots. as we are low as rear loaded um product. And this was unclear in the PM26 memo because the focus at the time, back in Aug last summer, was what to do with the proliferation of these 40s. Uh and so we didn't really think about Single family detached lots that were less than 40, because 40 was the the hard line that we would that we stopped at last summer. Um this memo is clarifying

1:25:15that we would s be supportive of lot sizes that are less than forty feet wide if they're on only if they're real or loaded. So similar to the picture that Commissioner Starkey just showed in Longleaf, you can get single family homes, detached homes, on lot sizes that are less than forty feet wide. But they would have to be rear loaded as that example showed.

1:25:39Well for that for that specific type of product. I'd want more stringent architectural design standards such as what Commissioner Starkey Mention. for the towns, I'm okay with what you're talking about towns because that's really

1:25:55a more affordable product versus a single family home right now in this market. So I'm okay there. But if you're not going to be able to four point five I think you know they're going to be selling as a single family home product. I think that's a good thing. That product needs to be You know. looking really, really nice for that lot size. I think that should be the be the compromise. Um

1:26:19Okay. Thank you,

1:26:20Chairman.

1:26:21Is there is there a certain percentage of the um rear loaded units that can be in a project or can the whole Project visas.

1:26:32Uh in the original PM twenty six discussion, um we noted that an entire project could be say forty feet wide lots, uh if it was rear loaded. So you could do a hundred percent forty foot wide lots. Only if they were rear loaded. Um otherwise you had to do forty five feet and there was a threshold that we had to meet. Uh in this with this revision, you could still do, let's say, all thirty five foot wide lots Again,

1:27:03the only way to do that would be through being rear loaded. So you could do a hundred percent, but it would all have to be alley loaded product. Right. Right.

1:27:12Okay.

1:27:16Sooner or later.

1:27:17Mm.

1:27:19Um

1:27:20That's my window issue.

1:27:24I like to get with industry stakeholders and we figure out the parking aspect of this. That way we don't continuously have you know, debate's healthy, but we actually set a standard on what townhome project comes in and if parking's sufficient for folks because more and more folks are living the number of people living in a town home is growing. Um so I'd like to get with the the stakeholders and maybe have some conversations and keep evolving um this

1:27:54memo to make it the best that it can be and we get the best product out of folks and livability and you know all the assurances that you can you live here but you're able to park also. Absolutely

1:28:03too. We we've uh we've started the discussion on the townhome parking question. Um as you know parking standards are currently being revised. We're in process and Uh there are upcoming commissioner briefings on the parking standards. And uh we can give you a heads up on that ahead of coming to the Board of County Commissioners with those land development code amendments. And we'll try to incorporate the townhome parking uh updates directly into the land development code with that with that land development

1:28:33code amendment.

1:28:35And the next subject that I would like us to talk about is rear loaded townhomes. 'Cause you know I'm not a fan of front loaded townhomes and I've showed you many projects that I don't think we're gonna be very proud of when they all come up.

1:28:52Mm-hmm. With all that was where we had all the concrete in front.

1:28:57Yeah. Or just all driveway. Yeah. Yeah.

1:29:02Well d depending on how far we go, I think that still needs to be my market driven decision, whether it's You know Rear loaded or the way that they've been built historically to put a mandate on the type of product I think We really need to be considerate of that for what the the market demands are. Um I think the market will seemingly shift. We've started to see it as the rear loaded product drum has been beaten by this board. Um

1:29:33But I think that's a slippery slip to mandate only. you know, real low town homes. Yeah, I just don't want us to I'm cautious to go and force it, I think the market will say What people are gonna have and you know and what It goes back to affordability too, so

1:29:51Well and that's why I thought it was important to talk about n having a lane for affordable, truly affordable. Um eighty percent AMI and under. that that um we don't Um Have we don't take out the ability for that m that market to exist in the county.

1:30:13Mr. Chairman Mariano. Yes, sir. So I I think we bring up uh s several good points. Uh and I'll say as far as like to the siding issue, I think, Commissioner Starkey I think you're you're you're fine with Um the sidings going across the side. My my house actually is all hardyboard siding. All the new stuff, not the old stuff. Um and it I think it looks fine. I think the elevated part, whether it be shingles or that is fine. Um I do think it's important. to make sure we make these things look good for a long time. Otherwise you're just creating some slums of the future. And I'm

1:30:43driven by s you know several projects that are really old. that just have no designs whatsoever and they look terrible. Yeah. Um so it's gonna bring down value. If you wanna really help folks and help our neighborhood up, the architectural things that we can do I think is is brilliant and I don't think it costs that much more money to elevate it. The incentive that we put in place from this year if it's rear loaded to have a a five foot wide small lot. It's a it's a nice carrot that's out there. So I think it's it's it's

1:31:14it's not a pushing But it's incentivizing what we're like to see. If you're gonna go smaller than go rear load like we're trying to get. And we've seen the market doesn't go unless there's an incentive for it. I think that might be enough incentive for those that want to go tighter can go and and make it work. So And whether you do townhomes the same type of way, I I think it's it's uh it's critical to go both both ways.

1:31:36Okay.

1:31:39Anything else? Have you got a little bit of a little bit?

1:31:45Yeah. And just to confirm, uh With regard to some of the discussion points that were made by uh Commissioner Starkey. Um We're gonna uh clarify to enable or allow horizontal siding shakes and that sort of thing on the second levels or the upper levels. Wrap the corner four feet, so just bring it around the corner. Uh windows should not be on the same plane as the facade of the building and need to be framed. More trimmed. And that's all the way around. All the way around. Um

1:32:18Uh and then craft an exception to the architectural restrictions or requirements for The single family detached houses that are sixty that are serving the sixty to eighty percent AMI. uh range for affordable housing.

1:32:38You way? Oh really?

1:32:40Yeah.

1:32:42Okay, well maybe they need something, but

1:32:48If you put too much on they they won't be able to build 'em, but well but let's do something. We can talk about it.

1:32:53We can revisit. Yeah. We can table that for now. To the at the board's pleasure, of course, uh and revisit that perhaps at the African public.

1:33:02We could ask that industry.

1:33:03I I agree.

1:33:04Yeah,

1:33:04okay.

1:33:05Yeah. Okay.

1:33:07And I think Commissioner Weightman wanted some more stringent architectural standards on rear-loaded single family. I don't know if that

1:33:16Mr. Weightman. Thank you, Chair. Yeah, so 4.5. If we're gonna allow, I mean these are single family detached, so these are houses. on smaller lots than the forty you know, what we've have the rules now, forty-five feet. That type of product really I think needs to be heavy on the landscape and architectural design standards.

1:33:39the incentive, if you will, for having us approve potentially a smaller lot size. Um And then I want to be sure that with The wrapping of the four feet and the other points and wrapping of the windows I think it's important if that's not what when you worked with the stakeholders, if those if those points weren't discussed with them I think we need to hear what they have to say before it becomes set in stone. So if those are new to it. I you know, I

1:34:09think there's a lot of stakeholder time put in this. So a few more minutes discussing if they were okay with what was offered here or or not. I think it's important that they're not going to be T B B A and speak with them.

1:34:24All right. Anything else?