P4 Chapter 42 overgrown lot ordinance continue to June thirtieth
What the county recorded
This item is not from the published agenda
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The source document
The county’s minutes for Board of County Commissioners, May 19, 2020
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What was said
Machine transcription of 29m of recording, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 82% of 128 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.
Yes, sir. Um the PI item P four was published in the Tampa Bay Times on April twenty sixth, twenty twenty.
IMP four is an ordinance of the Board of County Commissioners of Pasco County, Florida, providing for the amendment of Chapter 42, Pasco County Code of Ordinances, providing for modification, repeal, or severability, inclusion into the Pasco County Code, and providing for an effective date. Mr. Chairman, members of the board, uh as you are aware, this is the ordinance that the County Attorney's Office was asked to draft. Um to modify your existing
overgrown conditions um ordinance uh sometimes colloquially referred to as the uh overgrown lot ordinance. um and expand it Um We uh After introduction, um met with members of the development community uh who had some concerns with the with the The version that was introduced. and some members of the agricultural community
um made modifications um to to the in the the ordinance that was proposed for introduction. Um both the groups that we talked to uh indicated that they were no longer concerned with the proposed draft that you have before you today. Um the main change to to your existing ordinance is that large acreage Um That
has uncultivated vegetation, which is defined to be all unmaintained vegetation that is grown in an uncontrolled manner more than six eight inches in height or which is liable to produce unhealthy an unhealthy or unsanitary condition or become a harboring place for mosquitoes, vermin, or Or vectors. Um this term shall not include controlled plants, gardens, trees, palms, silviculture, and farm operations with bona fide
agricultural uses. Um your current ordinance has a twelve inch Um height limitation and on eight on Pieces of property which are larger than one acre They're the the property owner is only required to maintain a thirty foot buffer. Um this the ordinance amendment was generated um based on some uh email
or some complaints that you got from the uh Beacon woods, uh neighborhoods uh surrounding the Lynx golf course, uh, but would apply to any agri uh any uh acreage um not meeting the exclusions uh provided for in the ordinance. Um We ask that you accept public comment, if any. Um to
the on the amendments to chapter Forty-two and adopt the ordinance amending chapter forty two Pasco County Code of Ordinances by roll call vote. uh authorize the execution of the ordinance by the chair and direct board records to transmit the ordinance to the Department of State by electronic mail within ten days of adoption of the ordinance and I'm ready to take any question or questions now or I believe we've got
Don't believe we have anyone on this on the call in list. Uh we did have an email from Diane Kobernick which I would ask the clerk to read into the record at this point.
Madam Clerk.
Emails uh emails from Diane Cobernick, Gulf Harbors United, Public Relations Director, [address removed]. Commissioners, I am respectfully urging you to vote in favor of agenda P four, the amendment to Chapter 42. It is a sad statement to say that many property owners simply are not respectful citizens. The passing of this amendment will help your law abiding constituents. It has been said that some owners have no money to maintain their their
land, such as the defunct golf courses. This opinion is favoring these inconsiderate select few property owners and subjecting many property owners to the consequences. Any other property owner that allows their property to become a public safety concern is subject to the county's code enforcement regardless of their financial status. I would also ask you to review and update the process for code enforcement and have it applied the same across the board for all violations. Let it not need to
take almost one year before prosecution of overgrowth violations. Florida statute one two five point six nine allows the county to prosecute repeat offenders more harshly and higher penalties with higher penalties. I suggest the Board considers applying this statute. I urge you to vote in favor of this amendment and start the process of being fair and equitable. Your law abiding constituents will thank you for this. Thank you.
Okay.
public comment we had, if I'm not correct. Is it do we have anybody on the line signed up for public comment, Paula?
No sir, aside from uh the email received, that's all we have.
Okay, great. Um So P four, I don't know if any questions commissioners. Um I have a few questions, but if anybody has any before me, I'd love to hear 'em.
Um so you know I I'm this is not my favorite ordinance, even though I'm I'm a very big stickler on um aesthetics and run down buildings and those kind of things, but Um I would be very much in favor if the uh The owner of the golf course had to keep a strip mu maintained around the edge, but this requires the whole thing to be mowed, is that right, Jeff?
That's correct.
So um uh does this apply to the county as well? So any any time we have grass in in an improved area over eight inches and D O T, they're gonna be required to mow it?
Um this
Because I can't remember that. I believe there's
an exemption for government that I'd have to I'd have to check.
I didn't see any when I read through it. So um You know, we're gonna we're gonna really have a problem keeping DOT with the grass uh at eight inches and under all along State Road 54. Um I I went out and uh drove around with uh one of the HOA members. He may have been the president, I don't recall Um But uh You know I I used to get calls from people who backed
up to our property before we built long leaf. And um we got calls all the time um about mowing our grass so that people could see our cows. Um and that when we went through the longleaf um uh procedure to get developed, people were very upset because they paid a premium to look at our property and they thought we needed to keep it that way because they had paid a premium to look at our cows. But, you know, li
life doesn't work that way. And unless you own that golf course, you don't have a right to the view of the golf course. You really don't. You Um so uh I I'm just um a big property rights owner, I guess, and I do think uh there is health and safety in requiring a strip to be maintained. It's a fire break and also I agree with the vermin and rodents but I just find it m for me personally very un-American
to acquire a company to spend a lot of money. When the the residents around it didn't wanna be a part of it but they want the benefits from it. Yeah, I just I really have have a problem with it. And when I look at the other golf courses in the county And and frankly, this is a national trend. Um and you see it here in the county with um With let's see, Timber Oaks, okay, the residents bought the property.
With an MSBU. Magnolia Valley, they bought the property with an MSBU. In Gulf Harbors, we will be buying the property with an MSBU. If I feel that if the folks in Beacon Woods and it's a beautiful community if they want to have a park behind their homes. Go for it. Buy it. But don't force someone who could who tried to work deals with the community to um
to stay in business when they weren't willing to help support him. So I I'm very much against this. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman Mariano Starkey. Commissioner Mariano?
Yes, thank you. Um you know this this started with the Lynx golf course and I'll tell you that piece of property there It was designed for nothing but a golf course. There's not enough room for green space. Part of the drainage in that whole area is all for these narrow fairways that dip down and are used as fairways, but in a heavy rain they'll uh take take the stormwater. Uh the property value premium that they paid to live on that Gulf Coast was huge. They did tr the residents were From You know, given an opportunity to help him pay for his capital costs with no guarantees about anything else or
condition. Um I will say I actually tried to work, you know, com similar to what Commissioner Moore had done with plantation palms to try to give them something. That would be powerful. It was such a quick thing and a quick decision for him to just shut the thing down. And partly because he owns another golf course right down the street. in my opinion. So if he has one he figures they'll get all the business from that, he's not worried about what's over there. So with with the the the strength the strength of what he had done and not working with the residents to try to make it happen because they did want to have a golf course property. They bought golf
course property um that I am No no they
bought com property that looks at a golf course.
They have they have the rights. I mean there's this intertwined in the in the deed restrictions that whole thing, the the rights. They have rights away going all the way through the whole golf course to get there to the clubhouse, which a lot of them for the lifestyle they went to the restaurant, went to the pool without going on the streets. They they went through the Gulf Coast to get there. So even by not maintaining that, the growth that's in there, uh if you get coyotes, snakes, whatever, it just improves all that growth that makes it dangerous for those people and and part of their rights away of the quality of life that they had. So uh with that I am uh I know it's
worked very well in Seminole County, didn't cost that much burden. If if you set a good plan together, it's not that expensive maintained. But if anybody wants to drive out and take a look at it the way it looks right now is really detrimental to the area. It hurts property values in that whole area. Uh and driving down property values actually a burdens their quality of life in the tax base of this whole county by letting that go. So I think it's a very viable Gulf Course. It could come back. But uh I am very supportive and I thank the County Attorney's Office for for doing such a good job. I didn't Have all sorts of people. I think you've seen the
input over the past month with different people from the board, people that live there, they support this ordinance and they're very appreciative to have it done and they w they want to see it done. So they've been patiently waiting to see uh this come together t for today. Thank you.
Thank you, sir. I see Commissioner Oakley, your hands up, sir.
Yeah.
I never thought about this affecting uh D O T and uh right aways around our highways, is this gonna affect them? Do that's gonna cause an issue between us and F D O T on mowing?
They are excluded from the definition of improved property as you are. It says excluded from this definition are public rights away, publicly owned stormwater facilities, publicly owned landfills. all publicly owned parks and natural land areas designated as passive recreational purposes. Um That's under the definition of improved property.
Oh but it's not in the ordinance, but it's somewhere else.
No, it's in the definition of improved property in the ordinance.
Thank you for that answer.
That Ron Oakley moves approval.
Second.
Okay, what have I motion? Check my um I still I didn't get to to Commissioner Weightman.
Well excuse me.
I know it's hard to see.
No
I'm fine. I think we spent enough time on this back and forth. We've heard the residents come to our meetings. You know, um Yeah, but something needs to be done out there. Uh and even if he does it makes it into a pine tree thing, you know, he still needs to maintain the drainage. That's my biggest thing to when it comes to the residence, is the flooding and stuff that'll happen if they don't maintain it.
Okay, so I I have a couple questions then. Um thank you, Commissioner Weightman. Yeah, yeah, I'll just be honest, I'm a little bit on the fence on this one personally. Um I see Commissioner Starkey's points, I see Commissioner Weightman Mariano and Oakley's points too. Um so you know Commissioner Mariano spoke a little bit a second ago about it being a golf course community and that's what they expected. Well I don't disagree. Yeah. If you guys remember too long ago there was a vote out at Quail Hollow Then
I lost four one. So I'm thinking back where were the you know, i what's the difference in that situation about the rights of them having the rights to have a golf course community. We talk about plantation palms a little bit and yes, Commissioner Oakley, I'm glad That There I don't maybe somebody could fill me in. Either Commission Mariano or somebody with staff could fill me in, because from my understanding, The owner did attempt to work with the residents there. similar
to what they did to pay a monthly quote membership fee to keep it going and I heard they declined. Now again, I'm not saying that's correct or not, but c if somebody can jump in and tell me what really happened, I'd love to hear it because I heard the offer was made.
Who offers? Jack Mariano?
Go ahead, Commissioner Weightman.
So and I and I I tell you, Commissioner Moore, I I listened to what you said at that meeting uh when we first started talking about this about what Plantation Palms had done. I reached out to the association, I brought the deal that was offered there because it was a better thing for the residents where there are um the whole situation. The deal that was offered to the people at the links was not anywhere near as as quality. It wasn't d didn't do any of the protections in there whatsoever. It was just really a strong handed thing of uh what he wanted to have done. Uh and the people looked at it, they rejected it. And you know, frankly, if you
if you want to go back to like Tim Brooks and look at it that the way the people were treated, they just in a lot's confidence in the person and and to make the deal happen. But I think that's a good thing. have an offer, they didn't like the offer. They tried to work with them, there was no counteroffer. And then when the numbers came in finally, like when we first was I was selling the golf carts, the numbers that came back in were like so astronomical that it even blew those numbers previously out of where reality was. So the people did try.
Commission Moore?
Yes, ma'am.
Go ahead, Commissioner Starkey.
When I met with and I I I just wanna record, I have never met and never spoke to the person who owns this. I have no idea who he is. Um, but when I went out there and drove around with a gentleman, very nice gentleman, um, in his golf cart, he told me part of their challenge was that Um the people on the golf course may have wanted to pay uh for the golf course because it ha definitely affects their property values, but there are a lot of people who aren't on the golf
course that didn't wanna help pay for it. Um You know, what's gonna happen to this property? 'Cause certainly someone isn't gonna keep spending money on a property that is just Bleeding him dry. So Um yes, either he's gonna sell it or i if it's in an LLC, I would guess he's gonna go bankrupt and just close that LLC. and then um and then they're gonna have n nothing but Um can Mr Seinsider, can this property be developed or would
he have to come through like the other ones have? What is there a zoning underneath this or
Well there would be the every property has zoning underneath it. I don't know what the this particular zoning is. As I said, this ordinance is not designed while it will fix this problem i is a it is a public health safety and welfare that should should be looked at more broadly than just the links.
So um so what the so what is the outcome of this gonna be? It's gonna be either sold for development or he's gonna cl close his LLC they'll and and a piece of property will rack up liens against it. And no one will pay it and the county will be on the hook. I think if the residents want a golf course they should buy it. Or if they want a park they should buy it. I you're just not entitled to the view of property you don't own. I'm sorry, that's is Commissioner Weightman
Saying in real estate uh Buyer beware, what is that in Latin?
Caveat Emperor.
Caveat Empore. So I I I I I see I'm on the losing vote of this, but um I think I think this is gonna hasten some kind of action on that golf course that the residents don't want.
Thank you. Yes, um Commissioner Yeah um Wells, I'm sorry.
Maybe I'll comes down to an MSBU and we have to look at this one. But the bottom line is if you've been out there and I've out to my friend's house that lives right there. The gentleman has an obligation and with us up three, four feet. It's like Magnolia Valley. I know that obviously we're maintaining that. We maintain the bucket larger than what is expected by county ordinance because of As as Jeff brought up, health and safety, you know, we don't want coyotes and other armaments and everything else in people's houses. So that that's really to me it's a public health health and safety issue.
Ma before I go to Commissioner Oakley, um staff, is there any way so last meeting um it was a tight it was tighter on um the board members in Newport Ritchie And I can barely see him from my camera.
That's why I didn't know if it was Commissioner Weightman that You can't.
Well okay, it was different last time. Okay, Commissioner Oakley.
Yeah. I hope the people that live on this golf course do not think that Because we're approving this if we approve subordinates. that I hope they don't think that the county's gonna take over and mow 'cause we have no funds set aside to mow properties of private owners. So Um I have an idea that some of those folks think that is since we have the ordinance and we'll go out and mow, but I don't think that's
the purpose of this ordinance.
Thank you, Commissioner Oakley. That was a question I was gonna ask Mr. Steinsteiner again, and and then kind of going back um Think was Mr. Stark, you kinda mentioned that. So going forward and th think about this ordinance in a the broader perspective
What how uh much is the county gonna be on the hook overall? So are we What are we what are we obligating ourselves to possibly Costwise. You mow these properties. across the county, not just this property, but multiple properties throughout the county. So I I do have a question that and I'd love for Mr. Biles to jump in and say, where's this money gonna come from? Where's the accounts gonna because if you do it for one Do
we have to do it for all?
Mr. Biles.
Mr. Chairman M if I can answer the legal question first, the the ordinance in section nine, uh, which is an existing section of your ordinance, says the authority to correct dangerous conditions provided by this section does not impose any informative duty on the county to warn of or correct the conditions, uh such conditions and sub It's optional. Now When
enough people complain that may not be optional anymore, but legally. It's your ordinance does not require you to go out and mow. It is an option in in your toolkit. if all else failed. But If you do, then the lien then a lien is imposed on the property Um on the residential property we have not been very uh uh successful in in getting the in collecting
those liens. But I I don't know whether Mr. Biles has uh a pot of money that's designated for this other than than what code enforcement has today.
Yeah, the I think one mow at a golf course would wipe out the budget that Code has for mowing residential yards. So Yeah we have a contractor set up that does that on when we have the complaints in a neighborhood. Um But mowing a golf course is order of magnitude larger than a single family yard and so there is not money in codes budget to mow and so we would not be able to mow a golf course if an owner was not gonna come into compliance. We do not have the money to do it in codes budget.
Has has anyone talked to this owner of of what his plans would be if he was required to to keep up the maintenance of the golf course when it's a folded golf course?
I I have not.
I think you're hastening something you don't want. I would Try and make it more affordable for him and just do the strip and maybe it'll stay like that longer, but
Mr. Chairman Mariano.
Yeah.
Commissioner Weightman can I just follow up because I had asked the question. Could I just follow up? I just never got to do my follow up. Thanks. Um So I guess the question is for the board actually. is I'm just gonna make sure this ordinance isn't j we're not moving this ordinance forward just because of one property and that we're not gonna have that we're not gonna have somebody in the next few meetings say, Hey staff, I direct you to mow this property. 'Cause if that's what it's for I can't be supportive. If you're not going to be able to do if we're gonna I
just wanna make sure we're not gonna go and again, every commissioner in every district's gonna start pointing to staff and go mow empty properties 'cause we don't have the funds for it. I mean we gotta all be in agreement on that. I don't wanna hear somebody say go mode the golf course to staff next week. 'Cause if we do it there we got to do it everywhere. I understand the ordinance of the protection side, but we don't have a an empty pot of money, we don't have a fund set up to do that. So if you do one, you're gonna get a call from every person across this county asking to mow this vacant property 'cause you did
there. I know that will happen. So if I could hear confidence and the comf if I could feel confident my fellow board members, you're not gonna direct staff to go mow all these properties. Okay, if it's on the property that's one thing, but don't You can't just have to go out and mow these.
Mr. Chairman Mariano.
Commissioner Mariano. Thank you. Um you know when when you own two golf courses right beside each other to mow one to another one, there's not that big a situation. He did make it a little bit difficult by going to pint all the plant all the pine trees that he's got out there, which I don't think he's got the right to do it in the stormwater ponds anyway, but that'll get it looked at. Um I'm happy to go talk to the residents and let them know that look, though we pass this ordinance, it is Mandatory has got to take care of it. We're not going to be mowing it, so if it does come to that, it may take everybody g shipping in together to kind of make that happen. So I am happy to relay that it
was not in our tension at any time to go mow this property.
Sure. I just wanna because I I'm afraid it'll just, you know, turn into a uh a domino effect across the county and again we don't have the budget for it.
No, good point.
Thank you. Anybody else have any questions or comments?
I would just say um there you know there are residents who have suffered through the um Gulf Harbor's debacle for years. and um they go out and they mow the strip themselves and Um I don't know if uh What this owner if he lets them go out and mow behind their house and and You know, maybe there's he might consider giving them permission to go Mo. But um I'm looking forward to that being over in Gulf Harbors, I can tell you
that. Well you know, w while we've been stuck with COVID so many people out walking their dogs and It would have been nice to have that as a part. No Mr. Chairman Mariano.
Sir Mr Commission Mariano.
So Commissioner Starkey, good point. He they the people out there, some people we probably know were actually out there mowing it and they told them not to go mow it. So they actually took him off the golf course.
Yes.
So those that wanted to do it couldn't even do that.
Well we'll see what happens. I I you know again I'm I'm against this. I I think it should be a strip only.
Mr. Chairman Mariano.
I apologize.
Yeah, I think I'd like to withdraw my motion because of the fact that what it opens a can of worms, you might say that that makes people think that the county's gonna take responsibility and mow these properties and I'm concerned about that. Um, I think that's something we need to look at a little bit better that You know, I'm I'm just afraid we're just gonna open this thing up and then next week every call we're gonna get is we should be mowing uh private properties around. We can't afford to do that and I understand that. So I would draw my motion of approval.
Mr. Chairman Mariano.
Yes, sir. Go ahead, Commissioner Mariano.
Let's continue this thirty days, give the accounty attorney to draw something in in there where it does protect us and we can see very clearly that we're not going to. Um and that will give the chance uh To get it to take that issue away. I think we've dealt with the developer issue, the agricultural issue, so I think it's a f it's a tweak that w that can get done.
Okay, I have a new motion on withdrew em Commissioner Oakley, I have a new motion on the floor to continue this forty days by Commissioner Mariano. Do I have a second for that motion?
Second
open
seconds.
I have a second by Commissioner Weightman.
Mr. Chairman, if I may, rather than saying thirty days, let me get you to a board meeting. Six fifteen or six thirty.
Yeah.
Six thirty is I I'm showing that as Dade City, is that right? Yeah. It's gonna be virtual. Okay. Oh it is. Um all the way through the June. If we could continue it to the six thir six thirty meeting, uh one thirty or soon thereafter is saying may be heard.
Okay. Commissioner Mariano, is that okay with you?
That's good. Six thirty is a good date.
I had a second I had a motion by Commissioner Mariano Mariano to continue this to a date certain on June thirtieth. And I have a second by Commissioner Weightman, please call the roll.
District One Commissioner Oakley. District three, Commissioner Starkey.
Well I'm gonna vote nay because I just think well, okay, I'll vote nay. Whatever. Aye. Board Unity.
District four, Commissioner Weight. District five, Commissioner Mariano.
Aye.
District two, Chairman Mariano.
Aye, motion passes five zero to continue this to June thirtieth, two thousand and twenty. Thank you so much. Moving on. Um we have proof.