P11 PEG 247773 Blackwell MPUD zoning amendment
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Mr. Chairman to item P eleven because P C ten is gonna require a uh a um an actual presentation and it with respect to the folks who are here for item p eleven. Okay. We'll do P11 first. Okay. And that will be presented to you by Orlando Boris. And on that one, there are several ex parte communications with all commissioners. Uh there's separate ex parte communication with Commissioner Mariano, and all of those ex parte communications have been present have been supplied
to the clerk's office. Thank you. Thank you.
I didn't speak with
anybody.
Good afternoon. This is Orlando Borraz with uh Planning and Economic Growth Department. Um I'll be presenting PEG twenty four seven seven three tree, Blackwell M PUD. This is a zoning amendment from an AR, an AC district to an MPUD, allowing three hundred and twenty one single family detach units approximately on Uh 107 acres, and it's located north of Hudson Avenue and east of Coraway and Hazel Avenue.
is going to be the site location, which is going to be on the west side of the county. This is going to be the IDL map. uh also location map for us. And this is going to be the context map and this is a A very interesting one I want to show here uh real quick. Uh we have Hudson Avenue to the south of the subject property, and then we also have Hazel Avenue and Coverway. The applicant will be extending the sidewalk
um from Hazel Avenue all the way to Cobraway. And as you can see, there's going to be uh three schools over here in the area, and this is going to be the subject property.
This is going to be the current zoning districts already mentioned about I mean before. And then the fusion line use, which is going to be um res three for the property. And then the uh applicant is requesting the following variation which is going to be From L D C 906.1.D, 0.11, street access to adjoining property. I'm going to go real quick to the master plan to show. Where is going to be this variation requested? Right over here, this is going to be um Edwards
Road. Edwards Road is not up to county standards and uh therefore uh it makes sense for an emergency access which PEG is is in full support. As you can see this is also the master plan. Non-binding concept plan. And it comes with a recommendation of approval to the BCC.
Okay.
All right. Any questions?
Questions? All right. So is the applicant present?
Good afternoon. Cammy Corbett with the law firm of Hill Warden Henderson representing the applicant Meritage Homes. And I do have a brief PowerPoint presentation if we could bring that up and if someone if do I just pick the forward button, it gives me forward I
think. Is this the application where we have requests for additional time?
Yes,
this is the
Yes, this is the application where we have requests for additional time. Uh the applicant has been granted nine minutes of time for rebuttal. Correct.
So I'm going
to
try to use my time very expeditiously here on the on the brief the main presentation, and I know we have uh requested extra time for rebuttal, but we won't take it if we don't need it. So just briefly, Meritage Homes is the applicant. They are one of the fifth largest home builders in the United States. Uh they are their target market is really uh first-time home buyers and stockers. Startups are important a segment of our market for our working families. And they're an industry leader in energy efficiency. They've also won several awards
for cons uh customer service and for being a good home builder and a good community partner. And that's what we bring here today: a project that we're trying to be a good community partner. You'll hear that we are fully compliant with the Board of County Commissioners PM26 memo. We actually filed our application before that memo. With regarding the lot standards and architectural standards was required, but we are uh pre presenting to you an application that is fully compliant with that standard. Again, this is the project location which you've seen. What
you see in cer the circles here are existing PDs in the surrounding area. And you'll see that we're sort of in a donut hole here. There's development to our east and there's development to our west. And uh on this map you'll see uh the Palm Winds uh MPUD on the south. East corner, those are forty foot lots there, so much smaller lots, and that is approved. Future land use is res three. Uh this is designated for suburban development. This is not designated in your comprehensive plan for
rural development. Uh Project Details Orlando is already covered. This is our concept plan. This was our original concept plan that we submitted originally. We had smaller buffers, we had our parks in a different location. We were not showing any access to Hazel Avenue during our initial application. We knew from our sellers, one of our sellers, Mr. Porter, knew that there would be some resistance to vehicular access onto Hazel, and so we did not. initially provide
that. However, we did agree that we would provide a sidewalk and we would construct a sidewalk along Hazel Avenue to provide a pedestrian connection to the school to the west. However, after a consultation with some of the neighbors, we had a neighborhood meeting. It was quite lively. There were some people there that made it clear that no matter what we did or what we did for buffers or anything that we could do, they didn't want us to develop here. They wanted this to stay vacant and rural. However, we had several people who were very thoughtful and considerate and spent a lot of time with us, and we spent a lot
of time with them talking over their concerns. This is our concept plan now where we have enhanced the buffers, including an 80-foot buffer along that northwest corridor. We did relocate our parks. We are actually showing a full access to Hazel Avenue because during the staff review it was determined that staff felt that was necessary for us to comply with the land development code. So we are showing a vehicular access onto Hazel. I expect you're going to hear something about that. Some of the ex parte uh
forms that have already been submitted express concern about full vehicular access there. That is not something that we asked for or that we're seeking. So if it were to move forward without that, that would be acceptable to us. But we do again want to comply with what the county is asking of us and so we have provided it. Just uh some more images of the enhanced uh landscape buffering that we have offered. And these are part of the conditions encapsulated into c buffers in condition nine. And then again the Hazel
Avenue sidewalk to the Hudson Schools, that's something we're providing, including uh the crosswalk uh to get away get across to an existing sidewalk. Here's some architectural renderings of of what we're doing and how we're going to be complying with that PM26 standard. We are going to have the larger 55-foot lots around the perimeter and the smaller 45-foot lots in interior. And we are providing those seven and a half foot side yards. This is our amenity center and our open
space. And then again our key points is we've been found consistent and compatible with the surrounding area. Uh we again have the larger lots on the perimeter. We're providing um Okay, just one minute the full compliance with PM twenty six and I think I've already pretty much covered this. So um we're here to answer any questions should you have any and again we'd like to reserve time for rebuttal.
All right. Um have any questions?
I just I didn't look through the conditions of approval, but that sidewalk with the uh where is that located? Which condition is that with the crosswalk?
Twenty four. Twenty
four. Thank you. So I do have one question, Mr. Chairman I understand from your testimony that you The applicant I guess doesn't care about the connection to Hazel or that you could take it or leave it is what I'm
taking.
You're you're okay either way. is your commitment to Put the sidewalk on Hazel contingent on you having access to Hazel, or are you willing to
Sidewalk regardless, yes, that is correct.
So presumably Yeah. So what you're talking about is you just wouldn't have Vehicular access, but you still at a minimum on sidewalk access.
We would keep condition twenty-four related to the sidewalk. Yes. We would want pedestrian we we want to preserve the we commit made that commitment that we would do the pedestrian connection and people did appreciate that pedestrian connection and the construction of that sidewalk. We want to retain that condition regardless of what you do with the full access, vehicular access. If a
particular access went away, then you would but you still you still have a sidewalk going into your project, is that Correct. Okay. Isn't that
a sidewalk on both sides of the street or just one?
Just one.
Okay, and then twenty four B indicates that The county engineer may determine that there isn't sufficient right-of-way to accommodate a sidewalk. And that if that's the case that Any requirements? You'll have no further obligations to construct any Hazel Avenue improvements if that's determined to be the case.
Correct. That was the condition that we negotiated with with staff and the in con consultation with staff because we haven't gone out there and done full engineering yet. We think that there is right-of-way. There is, there are dedications to right-of-way along the way. The county has been maintaining that right-of-way. We feel reasonably confident that we are going to have the right-of-way, but what we don't want to do is have a condition that is impossible to comply with.
not right of way or that there's not suff sufficiently wide right of way.
Again, we still believe that there is sufficiently wide right-of-way. We just don't want to be in a position agreeing today at a zoning when we all get in the field and the county engineer is the one that's going to control this determination. We don't get to come to the county engineer and say, Oh, we don't, you know, it's gonna it we don't think it works. They don't we don't get to say that. The county engineer gets it gets a say in that and makes a joint determination: okay, yes, there's a barrier. that we all didn't realize was there at the time that we agreed to the condition.
So then what happens? It doesn't get built?
Correct.
Okay, and then how do the kids walk to school?
We are building uh sidewalks in front of our project along Hudson. Um but
Then they've got to walk in a ditch.
There's a condition to put a ten isn't it a ten foot wide sidewalk along Hudson Avenue?
Yes, ten foot yeah, ten foot wide sidewalk along Hudson Avenue.
Think basically what your concern was is that You didn't want to go out and have to acquire right away.
Right. I mean and it's essentially it's I think it's less it it's more of the practicality of it. We belie uh we have looked at it, our traffic engineer has looked at it, I believe the county staff has looked at it, and everyone is of the belief that this is possible and practical, and that's why we've put it as a condition. But we also didn't want to be in a position where everyone, including the county engineer, agrees that there's some physical barrier that we weren't aware of. of that would make it impossible to fulfill the condition.
Okay, and that was the nature. I don't think you might have misunderstood my question. you're concerned that there may be a physical barrier to you constructing a sidewalk, not a legal one. When I looked at the map it appeared that the last the easternmost terminus of Hazel Avenue might have been easement rather than right-of-way, which a couple lots to the west it was all clear.
Right, and it's and it's reserved for public right-way. But yes, that there's some kind of physical challenge to it.
I would also add that the condition allows the county engineer to grant design modification. So presumably You know if there's a physical barrier, there may be a way to Build the sidewalk around the barrier.
Correct.
Or a legal impediment, I mean. He can approve a non standard sidewalk, basically. If necessary.
Understood.
Okay.
I think the concern is there and I looked at the street view, there's open drainage, there's drainage ditches on both sides of the road, so would there be adequate drainage if they were to
and I'm ha
sidewalk. But I think a sidewalk is considered to be a safety improvement by the water management district, so one wouldn't need to provide additional stormwater. When you have good soils in that area, so
And if I c our civil engineer Joe Simoneau from WRA is also here, so if there are specific technical questions, he's probably the most appropriate party to answer those questions for you. So if you'd like me to call him up, I'm happy to do so. so.
Okay. No, I just want to understand.
Okay.
Yeah, Yeah, why don't we see what any questions are from the audience and then we'll see if we're going to be able Mr. Chairman
Mariano.
You have another one?
Yeah, condition 29 uh 24A, the 225th Dwelling Act. I'd like that change because there's gonna be kids walking if we wait to the two hundred and twenty-fifth dwelling unit.
They'll have kids that are In the development, in the houses. And having to walk.
Is that that same condition? Yeah,
it's
twenty four
A. Sub A.
Mm-hmm.
So that represents sixty percent of the allowable units, two hundred and twenty five.
So what would you like it to be? Well
would it be s I don't know what's standard? I was thinking like fifty or What do we usually do on that, David?
So there I don't know that there is a standard. It it probably differs by each M P D depending
Okay.
So
I mean I don't know whether this are are these kids close enough that I assume that they wouldn't be bossed. Is that accurate?
Right.
Um And there's no sidewalks on Hudson. Currently?
There is no on Hudson but the yes on the uh west side of Cobra Way.
I guess my question to you is is there another way for these kids to walk to school in the absence of the sidewalk?
They'd be walking in the grass.
The grass of Hazel or T.
Hazel.
Okay.
And then crossing the street up Crober Way.
But this applies to the sidewalk on Hazel. Is there any li cap or units, minimum number of units to be developed before the sidewalk along Hudson Avenue is constructed?
No, that is But I don't think the Hudson Avenue one's going to get all the way to the school. I believe they're only constructing it in front of their right project. There's there's no submarine. So it's not um it's not gonna help Richard's concern.
Yeah.
eventually whenever the county comes in and does the rest of what's in it might, but the immediate concern will be dealt with by Hazel.
I can certainly speak with my client and we can see if we can
Why don't you do that? Why don't you
do that?
Respond to that when you come back up. Sure.
We've had a couple of
unfortunate a accidents with
students. I understand.
And versus cars.
Understand.
That's it. All right, thank you. Okay, who was first on the list?
First on the list is Mr. Clinton Wynne.
Mr. Wynne, Clinton Wynne?
Okay, we'll call the next person. Clomer Black Blackwell.
Good afternoon, ladies and gentlemen.
I lived on Patrick Abs and Jack Mariano.
Yeah. Sorry?
Name and address for the record, please.
William Cromer. [address removed].
Thank you.
Excuse me?
Have you been sworn? I don't think we've been. Sworn. So we probably need to switch everybody
in.
Yeah.
That was a test. Yeah.
You passed. Anybody that plans to give testimony today, if you'll stand and be sworn right now.
Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give is the true self you got? Thank you.
All right.
So, ladies and gentlemen.
We can't stop this building going on behind us. But forty of those acres are all surrounded by two to five acre lots. They come in and they subdivide it and they put three acres on a Three houses on an acre. She has a good selling point. But it's not her backyard. She doesn't have to drive out of there every day. In and out. Or her Has been a little bit more than a little bit. or her children. So as
far as the traffic goes, mm there's There's options. You could put a road in from Hudson High School parking lot. Right out to the recreational center on Hicks Road. Just like you did for five A out to Little Road.
that's available. You would alleviate the pressure off of Cobra Way. You'd have the people from the east and the south have more choices. You could put passing lanes in on Hudson Avenue on the right hand side Of Cobra Wade going east. So if you're heading east from Hicks Road. you would put a bypass lane in for the people waiting to turn left on the Cobra Way. instead
of a fifteen mile an hour speed limit sign that did nothing but Brun. And make more traffic. Leaving Cobra Way from Hudson High School You can put a turn lane in for turning right. Yeah, lots still empty and available and for sale. And I think the people in Hudson, Florida are willing to give you our tax money, you can purchase some property and put that road in going to Dreck Center. And while
you're at doing that, You can also fix the road in front of the Rec Center because if you ever drove down there at nighttime God forbid there's a car. or a kid out there because it's it's not maintained. You need to maintain it. These are other routes. So if this lady wants to put in three hundred and twenty houses in my backyard Then she needs to find other routes for the traffic. The other routes are available. And us as taxpayers Will allow
you to spend our money on something useful. And that's useful. We don't need another road coming. another development coming down Hazel. It just makes it a shortcut. There's kids on both sides of the road. It's always been residential agricultural. Kids are on four wheelers, kids are on horses, kids are walking dogs. They're out at night. We don't need that extra traffic. I don't want it. I don't think anyone
else that lives in the area wants it.
So And then you also have a
I I said my part. I
said questions. So your position on vehicular traffic on Hazel is clear, but w how do you feel about the sidewalk on Hazel?
I feel fine about the sidewalk. That that's fine. But as far as traffic, motor vehicle traffic There's too much now. If if you don't cut in front of these children and kids a and not just the children, but the adults bringing and taking children from the school. You can wait at Hazel and Cobra for fifteen, twenty minutes. Three or four times a day. I've been dealing with it since the eighties. It needed pa from from Hudson
Avenue Cobra Way from Hudson Avenue to the high school needed paving for thirty-five years. It took him two days to pave it, but it took 'em thirty-five years to get there. Why are we last? I've been all over this county. I see new schools going up, roads going up, infrastructure going up. And Hudson gets I don't want to say it 'cause you'll just be mad at me. You know? Take care of us.
You answered my question. I I I think your time is up.
Thank you.
Hello, everyone. Thank you. Um I think we've already sort of decided we're not gonna drive on the hazel, right?
And
they're already saying
that. Well, I think that's a decision for the point of commission.
The next person is Alicia Alicia Joannes and she's been granted nine minutes time.
I sent an email this morning saying that I had edited this quite a bit, so I'm hoping not to take all nine minutes. Um I'm Alicia Juwannis. I live at [address removed].
So Denise, she's been granted nine minutes as well. Yes,
well. She's been granted nine minutes as well. I'll try not to take all that time.
Oh, excuse me, sorry.
Pasco County's open spaces, vibrant places becomes less true with each passing day. We are one of the fastest growing counties in the nation, and we are quickly becoming the laughing stock of car washes, dollar generals, smoke shops, and glorified barracks, which is what so many of these new communities resemble. There is no character or beauty. There is very little thought or concern for the surrounding neighborhoods or its current residents. Who have dedicated to living their lives and raising their families here. All that seems to be important in Pasco County right now is more yield, more money. I
have been mourning the peace and tranquility of my home for over six months now when I first learned that someone was going to build on the beautiful 40 acres behind my home. Since that time, I have tried to gather information to aid me in trying to stop or slow the intensity of this development. What I have learned is that the system is not set up for any citizen to be able to go up against the county. There are so many rules, regulations, and code to go through. Most of us are not well. versed in this area so we can only do our best to state our case and won't be able to cite code for you. I do not wish to have a community,
especially one this dense, built behind my home. Unfortunately, I have no rural protections because someone drew an imaginary line on a map a mile north of my home. I would have loved if my neighbors and I had been given the opportunity to purchase the property, however, that option was not afforded to us. Surprisingly, the builder in this case, Meritash Holmes, has been the most respectful and helpful regarding our questions and concerns to make all of this less painful for my family. I have filed several public information requests, and this is what I found. In the last five years, 289
MPUD applications have been filed. And approved, with only 15 under review for revision and only two that ultimately withdrew because revisions could not be met. Not a single problem or excuse me, a single project was marked as denied, so nearly everything is being approved. There are ten new division subdivisions being built. Or approved to be built near my home. They are Emerald Fields, Pine Creek, Legends Point, Serengeti, Bella Terra, Lakeside, Colony and Fairwinds, the Denton Avenue Project, Palm Wynn
and Park Lake. These, along with this project, is just shy of 5,000 new home sites within a five-mile radius of my home. With new proposals popping up every day with no mentions of roads being improved, new schools, upgrading utilities, new police or fire stations, all of which should be done before these new communities are built. I also could not be supplied with a sewage infrastructure report. Even after a public information request had been filed, no one seems to be able to answer the question of if the current sewage
infrastructure can handle the additional load. The proposed connection on Hazel Road is just adding insult to injury. The connection to Hazel Road is not something that should be allowed. Although it is code to do so, not all code can Can work in practical application everywhere, and this is one of those instances. It is a huge problem for current residents. We all want children to be safe getting to and from school. However, a walking path on Hazel would take up the entire easement of the road. The topography of the landscape
will not allow for this. Almost the entire easement is drainage, and none of the driveways have culverts. The easement is currently being utilized by utility. Utilities and two and four yard garbage dumpsters, where would these things go? Additionally, children would have no safe place to cross Cobra to get to the existing sidewalk that runs down the west side of Cobra to the schools. The extension of the existing sidewalk that already runs from Hicks Road to Cobra Way is a much more sufficient Is is more than sufficient for children to make their way to school. The sidewalk
is a good distance from the road. It is out in a more public area, which is always safer, and it provides a safe place for them to cross over Cobraway in the active school zone. Although a crossing guard will need to be added to this intersection. Also, the school impact analysis shows that the elementary school is already over capacity. This project would push that to 117% over capacity and does not account for Palm Wim Park Place or the Denton Avenue project. The traffic study conducted for this project is insufficient. It does not include the
intersection at Hudson and Cobra, even though it is one of the biggest intersections, is in a school zone, and is within several hundred feet of the proposed community's entrance. I was told it was not included because it is a vision roadway, which in all due respect means nothing because this intersection is very relevant to this project. The study was done at the wrong time of year to accurately depict what traffic is really like the majority of the time and does not take into account enough of the surrounding development. I have voiced my concerns and they have been ignored, citing that
all the requirements have been met. Perhaps additional requirements should be set in this case. The proposed Hazel Connection will negatively impact the current residents living on Hazel, Mayer, and Patrick Avenues. The addition of 600 plus cars down Hazel Avenue will make it impossible for current residents to make their way out to Hudson Avenue. It is already extremely difficult to do so several times a day, especially when the school zone is active. This will lead to a line of standstill traffic
all the way down. Hazel Avenue. Our roads are already used as a cut-through from Hudson Avenue to Kitten Trail, and the connection would just make this problem far worse. We also have additional traffic from the school buses going to and from the bus depot several times a day. If you connect, we will no longer be able to get to either major roadway in a timely manner, and may God help us if we have an emergency, because no emergency vehicles could get to us if we needed them. Also, the proposed community's roads will be private and will be maintained by their
HOA or CDD. All of our roads are public, and when the addition of 600 plus cars inevitably damages our roads, the county will want to put 10-year liens on all the properties to repair them. It should also be noted that a good number of current residents already paid 10-year liens to have these roads paved in the 80s or in the late 90s, excuse me. So now they can look forward to having to pay all over again because the new new residents will destroy the roads even though they will bear no responsibility in repairing them. We hope that our opposition will be taken seriously
and that any community being built should more accurately reflect the surrounding area and that there should be no connection to Hazel Avenue or any of the existing roads. Thank you.
That's your question.
Thank you.
Please no pause, no pause. Can I ask you a
question about
what?
About the liens for roads road construction. I contacted the staff this morning.
Mm-hmm.
And asked. If there were any active PVAS, which is for paving assessment program. assessments out there and I was told no and then when I wa asked if there were ever any on Hazel or Mare. I was told no, and so I'm trying to figure out is
there are actually residents here that can attest to it. The Cromers and uh Sarah's family and uh Amber, who they are all gonna speak, their families did pay in the nineties for ten years. The roads were limestone, and in order for them to have them paved, they had ten year liens put on their properties that they paid on their taxes over the years.
David was We don't talk from the audience. When you come up you can speak.
Was there a a program that Predated PVAS, to your knowledge? I'm not saying she I'm not suggesting she's not telling the truth. I'm just I'm I wasn't able to get the information from the staff.
And P Pas has been in existence since I was here in two thousand and one, so I I don't know. I don't know if there was a program that predated B valves, but it's It's been Accounting program since I remember.
I I just want to make a c a comment. Um, can you hear back there?
a way for the citizen to fight the county or to be able to go against the county.
Not to fight.
Well but but to have a voice to be heard against the county. And I just want everyone to remember it's citizen versus citizen. It's not citizen versus a county. Okay. We have a citizen that owns that property that wants to develop it. I
understand.
And so we have to make a decision that's based on you know we we have to weigh the
who owns the property is not the actual applicant.
Right, I
understand so
But but that's why I'm saying, you know, their their property owners' rights and their citizens' rights are the people that are around it. And so we have to weigh those things. It's not something that's for the county.
No, I just say I just want to make that comment. I was given a lot of advice um that when I came up I would need to cite code and I did do my very best to go through. Like I said, a lot of them are rural protections that don't apply to me because that ends a mile north of
the easy.
my property. So it wasn't meant as a slight. It was just meant that there is quite a bit to go through and where you all do this quite often. This is something new for most of us. We've never had to attend one of these meetings before. We've never had to um state our case in a way that um that is not emotional, that states facts and that is not citing coat code. I you know, I mean I don't have those
So we we appreciate your comments and I understand it's not something you do every day. Uh you know, it's
And like I say, it wasn't meant for a slight, it's just that it's a very it's very overwhelming
is the point that I wanted
to
have. I s I say the same thing. It's not meant as a slight, you know, it's just remind remind you know, when there's car washes, when there's all these things that are being approved We have to balance the property owners' rights and we've said this before, but we have to balance property owners' rights against the people that are around And so if someone wants to develop a car wash, that's their it's a free country. It's their prerogative to be able to do that. You know, it's not for us to say y you can't or can't do that. So just keep in mind when we're when we have all these projects that are being approved or not approved, you know, we have to look at them based on whether
it's suitable for the area, whether you know, there's gonna it's gonna create an undue burden on the people around them. But if there's no legal reason why we can say no, we have to balance the rights of that property owner as well.
Okay, understood. Thank you. Did I
understand you correctly
You would be opposed to a sidewalk along Hazel Avenue?
Not necessarily. Mrs. Uh I well sh I had a qu my question was where would the children cross? But it was answered by the attorney in this in this uh Cammy, I'm sorry, Co Bet I always I don't know her last name, I do know her first name. Um because I've met with her several times. She did answer the question that they would put a crosswalk there. But um Uh the if there no not necessarily, but I do believe that um it's gonna be quite interesting to see when the engineer does go. The easement is not large. It is all drainage
ditches, none of those driveways have culverts, so those would all be need to be added. If we do have heavy rains, that drainage is full all across those. There's utilities up and all and uh all up and down that road on Hazel on this side of the road that they to use and it's an ag it's more agricultural. So the majority of homeowners have two and four yard dumpsters that sit in that easement as a way for them to have their garbage collected. I just I would be very surprised if it was something that would be feasible. It's
a it seems like a pretty it's a small rural road. I don't feel that the the easement would call for it or the topography Would call for it. I'm not an engineer. That's just my observations. No, ultimately, if it's found that it could do it without disrupting the residents, of course, they have no problem with children being able to get to school safely. But there isn't an exorbitant amount of traffic already on Cobra. So if they do do a crosswalk there, there would also need to be a crossing guard because there'd be no way for children to cross safely
and to fight. With the traffic on Cobra and Hazel Road. It would just be dangerous, period. Regardless, if these homes are put there, crossing guards are gonna need to be employed. If one, if the extension on Hudson goes all the way, it already goes from Hicks to Cobra. That's new. That was put in when they did the intersection at Hicks and Hudson about five years ago. So if that extends, it's not a huge extension. And then they're already proposing that that be twice as
large as a normal sidewalk at 10 feet. So I think that would be more than sufficient. If it's not meant to be sufficient and the easement can handle it, of course, I have absolutely no problem with children walking safely to school. But there are plenty of children who live in our community who safely walk to school without the sidewalks now. So our main concern.
It looks like the sidewalk's on the west side of Cobra Way right
now. Yes. So they would have to cross through and that's that traffic is standstill. And like Mr. Cromer said, if you're trying to get out during any of those active school zone hours, you someone has to let you out, or you're not getting to Hudson Avenue.
Do we know if there's sufficient right-of-way on the east side of
Yeah.
Of Cobraway. I wouldn't think so. It's very there's very, very little space there. Which is why I think they chose the west side to begin with. the opposite side of Hazel Avenue has the same problems. I think that the north side was chosen because you don't have any cross streets to compete with, which would be mayor in that case.
It's funny 'cause at the north side of Cobra Way there before you get into the school property it looks like they have to cross back over from east to west. It looks like there's a
crosswalk. The sidewalk terminates and then
it you have to cross back from east to west.
So there are no. There are other options and there are maybe some, you know it m it might not be as easy to do to put that sidewalk in for the children.
Mr. Chair, the next person is Amber Tucker.
Member, if you could give us your name, full name and address, please.
Um yes, Amber Tucker, [address removed].
And you've been sworn?
Yes.
I've lived on Hazel Avenue since 2005. I'm also a proud graduate of Hudson High School. We understand that growth is inevitable, but as a lifelong citizen of Pasco and a taxpayer, I feel that this county is not appropriately prepared or proactive in planning for the growth that we have been seeing. Homeowners on Hazel, Patrick, and Mayor were assessed several thousand dollars by the county to pave these roads. These roads would still be limerock if not for the homeowners who pay who paid out of pocket for
this improvement. And I do have the documentation for the satisfaction of lien for the home I'm in now. Speeding has been a problem on Hazel for a long time. The majority of people traveling down Hazel, Patrick and Mayer, are not residents. They are using our roads as a cut-through between Hudson Avenue and Kitten Trail and do not obey the posted 30 mile per hour speed limit. The Pasco School's Northwest Bus Garage has an entrance on Patrick Avenue, which contributes a considerable amount of traffic through our neighborhood as well. Our
neighborhood roads are busy enough. We do not want Hazel, Patrick, and Mayer connected to this development if it is allowed to proceed. Our neighborhood is still designated as agricultural residential. Please respect this and do not allow even more traffic on our road. The only recent recent significant improvement that has been made on Hudson Avenue was at the intersection of Hudson and Hicks in 2019, which was paid for by the Penny for Pasco. That improvement included a sidewalk from busy Hudson Avenue to the Hudson Schools Complex, where
those schools have been standing for 40 to 50 years. The other main entrance to this complex on Kitten Trail did not receive any improvements. If residents weren't paying more in sales tax, would we have seen any improvements? In addition to the 321 houses being added to Hudson Avenue that we're talking about today, 80 acres have been cleared on Hudson Avenue near Colony Road for Taylor Morrison to build homes. 32 acres have been cleared just east of that for MI homes to build houses. 30
acres cleared on Colony Road for what I'm assuming will be more houses. 60 acres at the northwest corner of Hicks and Hudson that is rumored to be another housing development. Our roads and intersections are not up to the demand for all of the new houses proposed for Hudson Avenue. I'd like to acknowledge the Uh traffic signal that was um installed at Hayes and Hudson Avenue, which I think is inadequate. It's a bare minimum traffic light with no protected left turn for any direction, no added turnlanes, no refresh pavement striping or painted arrows to assist drivers
traveling through the intersection. This intersection leads north to our very busy West Pasco Solid Waste facility, east to the New Gary Plastic Packaging Company, which touted it would provide 500 jobs. South to State Road 52, a main artery in our county, and west to Hudson Avenue, where the county wants to allow hundreds, if not thousands, of homes to be built. I would like to respectfully ask that you please consider not allowing this rezoning and development to be approved. If it is approved, please consider our requests of lowering the density and not allowing our roads to be connected
to this development. Thank you.
Thank you.
Sarah Brandemille.
Hello, I'm Sarah Brandamille. I live on um [address removed]. I'm very nervous, so
We don't bite. We promise. Speak
for yourself.
Yeah, right. I'm
like, never done this before. Um so I live on Hazel and I am two lots from where the new development is coming in. So I am past mayor on the east side. Um at the moment we get One, maybe two cars a month that come down past my house that realize hey this doesn't cut through. There's not even a turnaround. They have to use my one of my two driveways that I have. Um My husband and I are very worried about obviously the traffic
cutting through. It is true that we cannot leave our house to go out by Hudson Ave um four times a day because of the school. Um both schools, they start at different times, so it's hard with the traffic. Um as of now the cars that do cut through to get to Kitten Trail Uh my daughter walked to school from our house, so very close to where this new development will be, with no sidewalks over by us. It was great, but when she would get down further towards
Hudson Ave, the people that speed through to cut through to Since they can't turn left onto Hudson when they leave from Cobra, they will come through the back and they'll go out to Kitten Trail. She would tell me every day that someone's speeding past her. So the idea of sidewalks, in my opinion, is great. I I'm all for the safety of children, but I am nervous with the size of the easement that we have.
Again with my dumpster. I know that was mentioned that our dumpsters are on the road. Um we have a fence that goes all the way up to the top. My son has a playhouse right in the front. I'm worried um with the drainage, with the rain, we already get flooded up there. So the irrigation, all of that stuff is just it's not the unknown for us. Um so I would like to Find out more about that. We're very nervous with you know 325 homes, about 600 cars. Is it gonna be a cut through for people to
get past that traffic? Um Also on Hazel there are a few um registered offenders, child offenders. I check it for Halloween every year. Um so I don't know having children walk past that. Um I just I'm unsure of what's gonna happen with everything. So Um, I just wanted to speak my concerns to you guys today.
Thank you very much. Appreciate that.
Kathy Cromer.
Hi, I'm Kathy Cromer and I live at [address removed]. And um pretty much covered everything here that I would like to say. My concern is Of course we know that everything is growing in Pasco County and there is not a whole lot we can do about it. I am totally opposed to them opening that road on Hazel and using it for more traffic. It's not safe. We sit now, like they said,
there's it's not we're not exaggerating on the traffic there. And it's getting worse and worse and worse. Someone is gonna get hurt. Um, you know, people are everybody's in a hurry. They're not letting you get out. They've got places to go, things to do, and they're running late. They will really give you a hard time at those that intersection there at Cobra and Hazel. I
don't want this connected into any of these streets. Patrick, Mayer, Hazel. I think a good alternative if they would be able to come down Hudson, you know, the extension there on the sidewalk. where you expect these children to be. You're looking for them when you get in that area. I'm I'm afraid that somebody's gonna get really uh hurt badly at that intersection. But um I am totally against opening that up to
any kind of um vehicle traffic. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman I had signed up to speak, but can we call Mr. Clinton Wynne again, see if he's back?
Absolutely.
Mr. Wynn, are you here?
Mr. Clint Clinton Wynn.
Mm-hmm.
And then there was another person that did sign up to speak on WebEx, is not on WebEx, but I may have seen her in the audience because I believe I recognized her. Is Judy Crumb here to speak?
G D crum. Yeah. She's hiding back there in the back.
Good afternoon.
So I'm Judy Crum. I live at [address removed], which is on the other side of the track. Um so I concur with everything that everybody's saying. I really think that any roads going out, people are gonna be upset with. I don't think that Hudson is prepared to take on the traffic that is there now plus all the additional subdivisions. Plus you have the public works building that's gonna be going up. that is right across from Lakeside.
which is gonna bring all the dump trucks, all the heavy equipment gonna be coming down Hudson. And we just are not preparing Hudson. to be prepared for all this traffic. I mean we already know that there's a problem now. So I'm not sure how we're going to fix it, but we're allowing all these homes to go in and it seems like we keep chasing it down. So we keep chasing You know, when we already know there's a problem, we already know there's a problem at Cobra. Um we
live on a dirt road. So, you know, they're wanting to put an emergency exit over there. We do not have water sewer out where we're at. We cannot get our roads paved because of private roads. And that comes directly up alongside the subdivision that's going in there. So I know they're putting turn entrances. East and west, but they're not going to come down to Edwards. So I'm not sure what that is going to pose, but we have enough trouble getting out of Edwards. the way it is. um
to go left and I know with colony and all the new homes and stuff that they're putting up there it's gonna be a problem. Um like they had said, Hicks and Little. Um you know, down by Lakeside. Um I think something passed today for word of life to add. And then like I said, With the road and bridge going out there, I think they have like maybe a hundred acres or something out there. They're building a huge building out there and all that's gonna move out there. So all of those dump trucks and everything will be gonna be coming up and down Hudson in that section. So that's
you know, I think it needs to be taken look at, you know. Um Hudson Avenue, Cobra all needs to be looked at. Thank you.
That was the last person signed up to speak. So if you want to call, see if anybody else would like to speak.
But more than linear time.
Um we just we usually don't let anybody come up more than once, so Um unless somebody calls you up. Anybody anybody like call him up?
Jerry, do you either you or your wife want to speak?
Everything is kind of Remember that.
Okay. Mm-mm.
How much do we
have to do? Yes, sir. Did you sign?
No I didn't.
Oh that's okay. Come on up. We need your name and address.
My name is Bob Waldo. I'm at [address removed]. Uh I have just we one question that came up about the emergency Uh entrance. on Edward's I think it was Edwards was called a public road. It is not It's a egress easement. I own it. Oh. I own
all the all the property on the east side of this project. And uh you know, I'm I'm just concerned about that being an emergency entrance Uh I believe the drawing showed the easement on the west side of the road. And
The easement is on the east side of the property line which is my property. So I I I don't it's not a public road. But there
but it is an easement. Is that
There's egress aggressive easement. Edwards Road is I think a fifteen foot. egris, agris, easement.
Does the owner of this property? Have the right to use that easement?
The owner of the property which
they have
the right to
No. The easement was assigned uh when Penny subdivided the Five blocks uh in the back. on Pencas. There's five five acre tracks that were developed and I don't know when, but I've been there for thirty years, so It was before that.
Who
is
maintaining the season currently?
The homeowners. The homeowners.
It looks like it's a dirt road.
And uh the other some of the other people.
So the the current the owner of this property that is seeking this rezoning is not using it and has no right to use it. Is that your
No. They do not.
Okay, well we'll ask the applicant to address that.
Yeah. Great, thanks. Thank you.
Okay.
This man in the back. Well.
Yeah.
Um David Esther has about uh [address removed]. Um a lot of what was said I I agree with. Uh a lot of concerns about the traffic. That's a major concept. I know some of these builders are coming in with small numbers. of houses and kinda keeping under the radar so that they don't have to put forth the complete changes and road redirection, but That's part of what I see your guys' job as you see ten people coming
in on that road and haze all these builders where's the plans to further develop the road construction and as you're weighing that property owners rights and the other citizens that needs to somehow come into some discussion. Um there's Like was mentioned, ten builders coming in in that area, those places are not full yet. There's builders that have been there for ten, almost twenty years and they still haven't filled all their parcels yet. I'm
not seeing why we need to have additional housing. When we haven't even filled up what's already open. Um There's further development going in down uh nineteen, but they're gonna use Hudson and Hays as that cutoff to fifty-two. They're gonna use all these avenues through what used to be private roads that they agreed to donate to the county and pay for the paving to be uh so that they could have better roads for themselves and now that's gonna
be that's already being used as cut. throughs for everybody trying to avoid that traffic at Hudson Cobra. Um I'm not saying that maybe we don't Have the building at some point, but Right now it just doesn't seem feasible. It doesn't seem like we've built up the infrastructure to handle these new houses. Um in agreement with most everything that everybody said. One of the things I didn't hear discussed was where's the plans for um considering uh, you know, have they looked at the
wildlife that they're gonna um impact is has there been an inspection for the gopher tortoises out there? Has there been a plan for that? Have you um
Mm-hmm. We're not putting it on the side of the road like the one just south of Uh this um location is butting right up to a bunch of houses that are already on city water, city sewage. You're butting up in actually in the middle of a bunch of properties that are on two, five acre, t even larger acreage. They all have wells. They all have septics. We're counting on our well water. We have no if our wells go bad, if it's contaminated by the extra fertilizer. and
the pesticides and the runoff just from washing people's cars, all that stuff going down into the aquifer. if that's contaminating our wells, we don't actually have access to get to the city water. We can't do that. have an alternative source of fresh water other than bring it in for ourselves. So is there a plan for testing that water now and doing follow-up testing year after year for quite some time to ensure that we're not having that offset, that we don't need to then as a county decide, okay, these
people have undrinkable water now. Yeah. and what are we gonna do to help all these other properties? I built there to be on peaceful, quiet five acres. I I own the five acres next to me as well. My mother in law lives there. Um You know, we wanted that kind of lifestyle. The people around there wanted that lifestyle. It's the only thing that strikes me odd is they're in the middle. of a bunch of properties like that. And there's no way for people to recoup that if they their wells go
bad, if their fresh water all of a sudden becomes toxic. Um It's foreseeable. There's quite a bit of space there between the water levels. It should clean up. Things should be, but is there any plan? from you guys or anything you're gonna put on them as an expectation of testing and follow through and then who's responsible who actually has to pay for all that. If my water goes bad, am I gonna really bring something in from Kitten Trail or or Hudson Ave? Am I gonna be able to get access to county water? Um
So that was one of the things that wasn't mentioned. The other thing that wasn't mentioned is our emergency services. I spent last summer forty-five minutes on nine one one as the third call. about trespasser on the property, person that was impaired, um make making their way closer and closer through three fence lines. To my front door. as I barricaded inside with my family, and a weapon in my hand to protect my family. Right. Um the
whole time I had every right to go outside and confront this person. But I did the right thing. I called nine one one and waited for emergency services that took Forty five minutes to come.
That's unacceptable.
That property alone I'm paying over six, seven thousand dollars a year in taxes. And that's with Homestead. and I can't get a cop to my door in under forty five minutes. Year prior to that I had a similar situation.
How's the infrastructure gonna be in? What's your plan to use the new impact fee? to support more local sheriff's office. I think they just put something out a week or two ago letting you guys know that they are short staffed. that they don't have enough people to cover these areas. Um, especially Hudson gets shortchanged. Them finding locations, then being familiar with the area, actually how to get to my house, you know, down the dirt roads, down the the back roads. Um I think that's a good thing. All that
I wanted to add, the Other people that came up here very well prepared. I liked what they had to say. I just hope before you go and just finalize and approve something, you do some thoughtful. Research.
What you mentioned the use of impact fee to pay for the sheriff. What what What makes you think you can use impact fee to pay?
Well, maybe not impact fee, but it's just gonna come out of our local taxes. But impact fees for the further development of our roads would probably be more appropriate. How are we is there any plan? What are we using these impact fees for?
Yeah, we you c you we have impact fee for roads but you specifically asked us to use impact fee for funding the sheriff, which that's why I'm asking.
It's not just this builder, but you've got ten Other builders on the same
I don't know how you guys use the MP.
Um last time I was on the phone with the One of the Deputies. Um He said to tell you guys they need more staff.
You were asking us to use it the county to use impact fee to fund the sheriff, and I'm I'm asking what makes you think we can do that.
Like the other lady said. That's not my job. I don't know how every detail of how you use your funds. I know you do get funds from that. I know you get funds from taxing. I specialize in a different career. This isn't my career. I'm just asking you guys to think about it and because where would this money come from? Make plans for it in the future, knowing that we're adding in all these homes, we're going to need more police officers in support. We're going to need more. emergency vehicles
that can get up and down the road and not be blocked at school time.
So are you aware of how much of our county avalarum budget goes to fund the sheriff?
No?
Are you aware of how much? The increase in our aver loan revenue goes to the sheriff?
No.
Okay.
No, I I'm not sure.
It sounds like you're sort of accusing the county of not adequately funding the sheriff.
No, that's not what I meant by it. Not meaning to insult or anything.
Okay.
I'm just asking can You guys go back with your knowledge of how those funds are used. And think about it. A solution. to improve those services in that area. area.
preemptively go out and build roads and put traffic lights in where they don't know where they need to go. So what they do is every time somebody builds a home
They have to pay the county. Somewhere in the r range of thirty thousand dollars per home. in impact fee. That do all the things you're talking about. Build the roads, put the traffic lights in. Adequate sewers, water. All that kind of stuff. These people aren't gonna be drilling wells near your property. They're gonna be using county sewer and water. They're not gonna ac they're not gonna adversely impact your wells. I'm hoping that they're not gonna touch your wells.
I'm hoping the stuff that they put on their grass and their lawn and all that doesn't get to be.
Pay it out of those impact fee. That's why the county charges impact fee so they don't have to come out and assess the property owners. And um So yeah, I think that's something that Maybe you're worried about that you shouldn't be worried about because we That's how you're asking me. How we plan for it. That's how we plan for it. We charge the builder. So that he's paying for the those things that need it that Need to be there. to solve problems for the for
the citizens. That are that are building for and for the ones that are already
there. So the unfortunate thing is it's a little bit of a chicken the egg problem because you have we try to plan ahead, right? But we don't know just because we prove it is development doesn't mean it's gonna get built, right? No, it's gonna take a so we can't we can't build a road with the expectation it's gonna be completed. So it the the impact fee has to be paid the first before we can do that and then it and it's years in the process to get it built. So unfortunately you know, is e even though we know all these projects have been approved, doesn't mean they're all gonna
get developed and we can't build infrastructure on the basis that maybe they will get developed and then turn around and maybe they don't get developed and now we're now everybody that is a taxpayer like yourself has to bear that burden for a for an improvement that wasn't needed. So that's why it's kind of a chick in the egg scenario with with r regards to developing in infrastructure. We you know, we can't build it before It's needed. Aaron Powell
And that's
I said they spoke to
the Ron Oakley.
Because there has to be heads and beds as they say. There has to be people in those properties paying those property taxes. Yeah. That has to translate down through that millage to the sheriff's office. The sheriff's office then has to buy equipment, hire deputies, train those deputies, and and that's a process before they come online. So there's always going to be that lag when you have a lot of development going on between when we have the funding to be able to improve infrastructure as well as to improve public safety for it. And and I I get you. It it it it's it
sucks. And I've seen the long times, but it's it's not really the sheriff's fault. It's not really the the county's fault per se. It's just that lag when you have development going on. I think it
would
just be helpful to know somebody's
even considering it. Robert
do you
have
anything about
it?
We definitely are. Any other? Any comments about schools? schools? Well we probably we
probably need to let just sorry any comments about
it.
Before we let Richard speak on schools, has everybody done asking this gentleman questions because we probably need to I think so.
Well I I think he brought up the school, so I wanted to
answer his question.
Oh okay, all right.
I like that gentleman's idea about the cut through to Old Skipper's trail. Turning that into a cut through and Coming up with a better way to filter the cars through there.
I thought it was this gentleman, but maybe it was another one. about the c school capacity.
Yeah.
So Can you just speak to that?
Yeah. I mean we work the county sends us all the developments. We work very closely with the county. communicate with them about all the developments. We're aware of all the developments. We have land on Hicks Road that we if we need to build a new school, we could do that. We can also build Wings on the schools there at Hudson Middle School and Hudson Elementary. We can also rezoning the right-of-way. Some other things. the actual zone of Hudson Elementary right now. It's Hudson Primary Academy. So the schools on the
west side are less crowded than the schools down in the um 54 corridor. So we have lots of things in place. We have you know we have portables. I know that's not always something that people like, but a portable is a classroom just like any other Room. So there is
There are p we know about the development and we proactively look out for it. So If it's overcrowded, yes we i it could be overcrowded.
Like Derek was saying, if you build the school If you build another school and then it's half full, Well now you've wasted taxpayers' dollars 'cause now it's half full and you're waiting for the other homes to fill up or the other school to fill up with houses. So Unfortunately there has to be a little bit of overcapacity in some schools sometimes. And that's just the way it is because if uh the other uh option would be like I just said, okay, we're gonna build a school but then it's gonna be half full or three
quarter full. So we're aware of the development and we track it very closely.
Did we get this might be a better question for staff, but did we get numbers of expected students for high school, middle school and Yeah, that's also included. I didn't see it in the packet, so
I don't think it's gonna be the one development that kicks up the numbers in that school. It's gonna be the combination of all of them on that road. I worked there for Well over a decade, so I've battled that traffic e every every one of those years and stuff. Yeah, traffic is a bigger issue there. And I see
this and I see this and
We have in some ways a bit of a flawed system. Under the Someone made the comment. That one of the schools would be a hundred and seventeen percent over capacity and that only included this development. It doesn't include palm winds and all of the others that they cited and all of these things have a cumulative effect. And I see that constantly in here. With the transportation analyses.
We don't require in our code. for a transportation analysis to take into account Other MPUDs that have been approved. and are in the pipeline. They uh they apply a mysterious growth factor to the road. And I think that growth and I see L E's in the back come talk about that, but I don't know, it's two or three percent and then some seasonal adjustment factor. Try to tell
the people in this room that there's only two or three percent more traffic on the road. I mean we all know it's garbage. That that needs to get fixed. Do
you know where they get that growth factor from? Is it a beaver number or is it?
I have no idea how that comes about, but But that's that's a problem of our code. That's something in the the code that's broken and probably needs to get fixed. I don't have all those answers, but I see it. I see it all the time. We've a we've asked that, we all know that.
Uh that's a good point, Mr. Moody. And I just want to let you know we actually had a conversation with Mike Krabala today about that. And he has told us to proceed with doing transportation planning and looking at the downstream effects of all these developments coming online.
And that should be done regarding everything. I mean it's being done to some extent in there with utilities, but you know, also public safety.
I realize
the
majority of the the current staff bears no responsibility Four the authorship of that code that happened by prior administrations and a prior political initiative to change the concurrency system to the mobility fee system. But now we're finding out that the mobility fee system doesn't quite work as well as we were all promised. back in the day too, so Yeah, I don't I don't know what those solutions are,
but I know the one that we have doesn't work and to your point w we recognize that, but for the moment we have to work within the system that we have. But I'm glad to hear I'm glad to hear Mr. Engel and Mr. Karbala are on that. That I think that's wise wise decision on the administration's part.
I don't think we have any more questions for you, so thank you very much. Thank you.
Mr. Chair, I do have a question for staff. Um What is the long range plan? Are you know, seeing all the M P D's that are coming in that area, what what are the long range plants for Hudson Avenue? Is there anyone that could speak to that? Any widening of Hudson Avenue on the Long Range Plan or anything of that sort?
And and to to your point about all the MP M P U D's and y yeah, we've discussed that before.
Uh the answer is I don't know. Um I do not believe it is on the capital improvement plan. Uh and I believe that our county engineer has opined that the level of service there is satisfactory at this time. But w if you'd like we'll check in with it and get back to you at the next meeting.
That'd be helpful 'cause I mean when I look at it down on the street level it it does narrow down towards Beacon. Um It just I think it's something that there's you know repetitive kind of question that we heard from the audience about Hudson Avenue and and issues with that. So yeah, it'd be helpful to to understand what the
David, many, many, many moons ago before you were employed by the county. And I was probably a young child.
There was a subdivision called Shadow Ridge built just to the north of Colony Road. And the DOT and its infinite wisdom. blocked all of the left turns from State Road fifty two onto Colony Road in favor of providing exclusive access into Shadow Ridge. Now we have developments. going all the way up and down colony, going to happen here on Hudson. And that's going to be
the main road. to get down to fifty two. where no one will be able to make a left turn. And if you go to the next street over from colony, that's the one that I gotta get out in my neighborhood. And DOT in its infinite wisdom has decided there should be a channelized Median. to access a self storage unit. So no one from my neighborhood can make a left turn. So now there's a family dollar on
that same corner. at Shadow Ridge and fifty two that is now a de facto street so that everybody can get to a median opening to make a left turn. I realize that's not Pasco County's fault. That's something the D O T did way back in the day. But I can tell ya, as Palm Winds comes online and the other thirty acre development that the lady mentioned that's just south of I'm trying to remember the little street that goes over into Meadow Oaks, Yeah. That's going to be a disaster, a traffic
nightmare, a disaster waiting to happen. And would the addition of this and I'm not necessarily opposed to this development, but would the addition of the traffic from this development, 'cause that's if you look at that's the nearest way down to fifty two. That's what's going to happen here.
And I don't reali I realize it's not the applicant's problem to solve that. But there's a lot of growth going on in the area and these people all see it. And they need to see solutions. And unfortunately I hate to say this. All right. In my district? I live in this district. Our district is ignored. It has been ignored for years and years and years for many, many years. We're the only district in the county without a county park. And if
it wasn't for Commissioner Mariano to fight and fight for actually multiple terms as his time as a county commissioner, we wouldn't have a park there. We still wouldn't have a park. So somebody needs to pay attention to that side of that that quadrant of the county too. These people all pay taxes. And now what we're coming out is we're finding out and can we recall the lady that said she had her tax satisfaction of lean I just had a I had a quick question for you about that. Okay.
Can she do that?
Because it has to be on the record.
Can you just tell me what When the lean was imposed on the property. I don't care when it was satisfied. I just want to know when it was put there.
Can you please restate your name to
the other?
My name is Amber Tucker.
Okay, lean bearing the date of September eighteenth, two thousand one.
Okay. So
it's when the
is there and maybe Denise, is there somebody here from the staff that can answer? I mean, because when I asked this morning The answer was there was not a PVAS there, but there sure sounds like there was.
PVAS does did exist in two thousand one, I can assure you.
I I don't know about this particular But if if it was if somebody we're talking about Hazel.
Correct, yes, sir.
My I suspect that the only way the county would have paid Hazel in two thousand one would have been through Pivos.
Okay. And then the same went for mayor to the best of your knowledge.
To the best of my knowledge, yes. I do I everything I access through Especially if
there was a lien on our property because that means we that means that we And put special assessments at the door. Yes, I understand.
And to clarify at the time I did not own the house. My in-laws owned that house. That's why I was aware of the assess the paving assessment. But everything I I gathered it from the clerk of courts, public records. Every homeowner on the roads in my neighborhood who were assessed.
Okay. That's
that's all I need to know. Thank you.
Thank
Do you know if by chance that this the property owner who Is seeking the rezoning where they assessed for impacts to Hazel?
I believe so, yes.
So they they did pay something towards the road?
Correct, yes.
Well you would be paved Generally you pay based on frontage. So that would be what, fifty feet of frontage?
Well, okay, so under our new system under the newer PVAT system you actually pay based on ERU. which would take into account how much you c how many units you can put on a vacant piece of property. In two thousand one I don't think we had D E R U methodology would probably would have been based on front foot. And so it probably would have been a minimal amount. But I don't know Without having the documentation, I don't know exactly how much they were assessed.
And of course at the time the neighborhood had to vote and the majority, you know, who voted for the paving ev so if people didn't want to pay for the paving they still had to because the majority went in for the the paving assessment.
And wh while you're up here, I'm not sure if we asked you before, but were you opposed to the sidewalk going in on Hazel?
I would love to have a sidewalk on Hazel um Yeah. Okay. Absolutely. Uh Sidewalk and Hazel is a great idea.
Thank you.
Thank you.
Right. I think we've covered how everything.
There is no one on WebEx for this item.
All right. Well we would easily rebuttal for the output. Oh okay, I'm sorry.
Cammy Corbett again for the record, thank you. Uh Commissioner Moody, just to answer your question with respect to the methodology for the traffic study for this particular development, staff actually was out in front of this and did access actually make us analyze all of the background traffic plus the two percent growth rate for this particular traffic analysis.
Not other approved MPUDs in the air yet.
Yeah. Yes.
Which two?
I will have to ask our own. I will I think uh I would like to ask uh my our traffic engineer who actually conducted the study to come up and answer that question.
Can we have your name and address, please?
Yes, uh good afternoon. My name is Ali Atefi. I'm with Lingson Associates in Tampa, Florida. Uh yes, we did include actually three MPUDs. Um it was palm winds, um Palm Wind, Park Lake and um
Also Meritouch Family Trail, which was pending at the time, but we did include it. So it's much more than two percent. Okay.
Uh But that's not normal, correct?
That is not normal, but then it go back to how we developed m uh the code and it was big discussion. We ha we took it to our uh at the time we had DRC. and it was decided that they didn't want to make that these traffic studies uh a a huge accounting book. Because Once you get into including
all other approved projects Then the question becomes When you do traffic count, how much of that project already has trips on the road. So somebody needs to keep track of taking projects, trips out of the roads, fictitious trips, and putting the b it just become very complicated. And the whole system was that uh the developer pay mobility fees And
the studies are supposed to work as to warn the county where might be issues. And the issue at Cobra and Hudson is more of an operational issue. It wasn't the intent of these. Analysis to look at the major capacity improvements. and and Cobra is not a major County Roadway, even
though it does serve the school, but it's not part of the overall uh vision plan.
So with regard to Hazel specifically, d do we have a number on Extra generated trip counts.
Um we did not include Hazel in our analysis. Our analysis is a worst case, meaning that we had all of our tips onto Hudson. And then later on it was they wanted to include Hazel connection. So our analysis is actually worst case. Not not having any trips or hikes.
analyzed all the developments.
Uh Hudson uh the standard is at D and with all the trips and the counts and converting to a peak to peak season and the two percent is C.
Based on D O T capacity tables.
You're saying that The standard is C.
D. Standard
is D, which is C is is much better than you're saying it will operate at level of service C. Yes. Okay.
And do you know to answer the question about future improvements to Hudson Long term, is it always planned to be two lanes or is it
uh based on the long range transportation plan, which is going to an update right now, it's uh two lane. Uh and you have to remember, I don't want to go into a lot of detail of long-range plan, when this was the long-range plan, first you develop the population and employment estimate. This was done almost six, seven years ago, the data for the LRTB. And then you develop the plan based
on the growth. At the time, I don't believe we had all these MPUDs coming in. So when next time the LRTP is being developed, you will have to consider these projects. And hopefully the residents will have be more active in commenting on the LRTP and making sure Hudson. uh gets on the uh on the book for the for improvement.
Did did you say that's being updated right now? The LRT is the right-of-way.
Okay.
Okay.
So do you have a number on the additional peak trips on Hudson Avenue then?
Additional base on this project, for this project? Um
So a project traffic is um approximately
Oh
One sixty, one sixty about three hundred twenty peak hour on both directions.
Okay. So
PM
peak. About evenly divided east west.
Yes. Yes. Okay. So
can I ask another question? Um
I I get your point about the L R T P. My only slight concern is We're asking for a right-of-way reservation of fifty seven feet from center line Which isn't that our two lane cross section?
I don't recall what's the the right-of-way width is required.
Does anybody from staff know whether that's based on a two lane?
Fifty seven feet. 'Cause that's that's a hundred and
fourteen
fourteen feet. Is that our two lane cross section or a four lane cross section?
I'll take an answer from anybody that knows. Yeah, that sound sounds like a four-lane to me, but
I couldn't. It's a two-lane. Uh typically the two foot cross section in the urban areas is gonna be eighty feet. So one fourteen would sound to me like a four lane cross section. Okay.
So we have reserved enough right away. If if the LRTP ends up showing it needs to be four lanes. They're providing enough right away that we c they could accommodate it.
Right.
Is what I'm hearing. That sounds right. Okay. Good. Thank you.
Okay. Um I'd like to ask um Mr. Joe Semeno from WRA to come up and address sen several of the issues relating to Hazel Avenue, Edwards, and some of the other issues. Sure.
Good afternoon, everyone. Uh Joe Simoneau with WRA Engineering, 12363 Hampton Park Boulevard, Tampa, Florida, 33624. um quickly on um on the hazel. I've sat at many a a table with um residents, with um staff, with the developer and somebody pulls out a magic marker and draws a big line on that down a road and said, let's put a sidewalk here and suddenly it solves a lot of problems and that's great. But the as the engineer I always have to jump up and say, Wait a minute, we got topo, we got ditches, we got all kinds of stuff.
So I have to Have to be the downer there. Um so Mr. Wanna s it's described it perfectly. We've got topo, we've got trash cans, we've got mailboxes. So When it looked like we were going down this road. I immediately said we need a route survey. So Meritage went out and got a route survey immediately. We got that back. The topo is not as challenging as we thought. Um the good thing is the situation lines up similar to Cobra in terms of right-of-way width and space between the road and the right-of-way. We knew you guys put a sidewalk on Cobra, so
we called up project management and had a big teams meeting with them and pulled open the plans to Cobra and looked at how your project management department worked out some of the bugs along that. So we basically have that as our go-to of all the ways we're gonna address some of the little nooks and crannies in topo and in swale issues. So we are very much on top of that. Uh Ms. Johannes was absolutely correct. is going to be challenging but not by any means insurmountable at all. Um the emergency access on to Edwards Well I just learned about
Seventeen minutes ago, we don't have access to it, uh according to not being able to use that easement. I don't know if you need to for fire truck access. Because the road is right on the property line, we actually don't need to physically build anything onto that property, um just stub out to it. So if we learn that a fire truck actually needs an easement to get there, that's fine because that emergency access was on there because recall our original map did not have an access to Hazel. If we're mandated to put an access to Hazel, we don't even need an emergency access anymore.
If we don't have to put a full vehicular access to hazel, we can easily put the emergency access over there. So if it doesn't work out that we have access, we have multiple options. Um Wildlife, uh a gentleman,
but yes sir. Before we leave the point on I guess I'd like
I mean With all due respect to the gentleman, he's not an attorney. I mean you all looked at Whether you do have the legal right to use Edward I mean, it seems odd to me that there is this road adjacent to your property that you have No right of access whatsoever. Are you positive you don't have the right to use the easement? I I think we're being told we don't. I haven't looked into the attorney on that issue? Because I
I would say it's not positive that there's not an access easement. There's not an access a specific access easement benefiting the property, but there is public access. So it's it's it there's an ingress and egress easement that for the public there. So it's not specifically an easement on title that benefits that property, but there I would I would not stand here to say and today and say no, there's absolutely no right to use it whatsoever.
So you're saying that that ingress egress easement is granted to the public? Correct.
Okay, so there is a public right to use it then?
I b based on my preliminary investigation of it, yes.
What is a preliminary investigation?
This is just something that was raised to me very recently. So based on what I've looked at so far, I know that it is not there is not a specific access easement. Are these easement
granted by some deed containing the individual property owners? Yes,
deeds with reservations. Correct. But there's not any like there if you pulled our title commitment, it doesn't say you have at you know, pursuant to OR book and page, you have you Blackwell property have access rights over this other property, but there is an easement there.
Yeah, he's been in favor of the public. Correct. Not just to those individual property owners. Correct.
Well, if there's an easement in favor of the public, I think certainly a firetruck or a police officer could use it. So I I but I haven't seen All this documentation you're talking about. The gentleman's asserting I don't know if he's asserting that a police officer can't use it. Oh yeah it didn't He seemed like he was a surgeon, but I guess we can ask him. for that clarification. But your is your I guess my question is based on what you've investigated so far Do you think it can legally be used for emergency access?
We believe so, yes.
Okay.
Answers my question.
Back to the list here, just trying to make sure we address everyone's concerns. Wildlife, I we talk about this on every project. Um, in order to submit our first round of construction plans, we need to submit a wildlife survey in order to get this MPUD through. There was a wildlife survey submitted uh 90 days prior to construction. A new wildlife survey needs to be submitted. Anything that's threatened and endangered has special requirements. Gopher tortoises will need to be required. located, all sorts of different types of birds, depending on what type of bird is there, could alter construction schedule, require
additional monitoring. So that's all plugged into the code. Uh groundwater, good question. We're surround where there's wells surrounded us. Uh the wellhead protection ordinance says all sorts of things you are not allowed to do on this property, none of which we are doing, but the wellhead protection ordinance also does make specifically say that if you're if you are designing and permitting ponds in accordance with state rules, i.e. Swift Mud Rules. County rules, you are you are okay to do that in this area. Um it's basically
a presumptive criteria that if you do that right, you won't harm harm the groundwater. Because those permittings take into account, are you breaching the aquifer? How close are you to the aquifer? So all that will take be taken into account during Construction plan review. There was a question about proximity to fire stations. I just quickly looked it up. Fire station 10, eight minutes away, four and a half miles west on 19. Um, just wanted to hit that bullet and I believe that was everything. You wanted me to answer? All right, thank you.
Joe, while you're up here, can you answer where where did the connection to Hazel come up or wh where did that come up in the process? It wasn't on your original concept plan, but then it looks like it got added in. And then there's people here opposed to the connection to Hazel. So I didn't know where did who brought that up or where did that even come from?
I I learned about it in an email, so we'll find out where that came from.
I can take that one. That came from uh the the county staff in their review of the application as they were finally review the upper level staff was reviewing the application, it uh the request came from them.
Was it right? Okay, so so it was added for the interconnection. It wasn't added because they needed a second access because of the number of units or anything like that. It was interconnection?
Right. Victoria's Pito's planning and economic growth.
Um the proposed project has access off Hudson Avenue and the secondary access to the site would happen at Hazel Avenue. They're proposing other access points, some of which are emergency access points, To help suffice for the code, but the but the only real secondary access point would be off of Hazel. And the reason why the connection was being made there is because Hazel actually comes to the property line all the way. And the road was anticipated to move. move to in the eastward direction through
the subject property today. So
Based on feedback from the Board of County Commissioners about interconnectivity between sites. based on the land development code and the requirement for connectivity and based on the facts on the ground, which is a road stubbed out on the property line. There's there's not even a gap. It's right on the property line. Um the connection was uh preferred at least to start off the discussion And debate the merits of the connection versus ignoring a stub that's right on the property line.
Sure. So can I ask the question? about this a little different way. So There's two different code provisions. There's one that requires interconnects, some Um which they've actually sought an alternative a vari uh variation to not do that to the east. But there's also clip reason that requires a second full functional access when you reach a certain number of units. W Do they have the number of units where they need a f Second full functional access.
I think it's going to be one hundred and fifty if that was wrong. What do you say when it's a six six time? What what are we required for the second reaction? I believe it's going to be triggered after one over fifty units. So these also are or whatever they are.
Uh
Well I mean the reason I'm yeah the reason it's relevant is there kind kind of already is a request to not interconnect to the east, which in theory if The Planning Commission were to sort of expand their request to not do it to the West, they could do it. I But I don't know if if they need a second full functional access another code, that's a whole nother code provision that hasn't been noticed for variation at all. So That's why I'm asking the question.
Yeah, I I think they're they're checking the land development code right now in terms of the quantity of units that the that would trigger the second full access point. So if we could come back to this question shortly.
So
Joe Semino's re is suggesting six hundred.
Well Brad's gonna come up and
Right. Confirmed six hundred. Mm-hmm.
Okay, so
brand
new one off the
top of his head.
So and how many units do they have? I'm sorry, right, without looking back. Okay, so they don't need a the code does not require He falls. second functional access for this project. But did d it does require an emergency access? Yes. So they need one fool and one emergency, right, Brad? Okay, so I guess the sum of all this is in theory, uh and uh this is really up to the Planning Commission about what you want to do about Hazel, but In theory, the applicant
could modify the alt the variation request they've already sought. to not interconnect to the east to also not interconnect to the west and that would be up to the Planning Commission though. But Th there's at least some notice in the record that there was a variation being sought on that code provision. So I think if the applicant wants if they wanted to Modify their variation request to include not interconnecting to the West on Hazel, I think they could. But it did But I heard the applicants say earlier as they're sort of
deferring to you and the elected officials to make that decision. I'm gonna you're okay either way. Okay.
I think the original plan was to not connect to Hazel and then You added that because of the staff's recommendation because of Interconnect.
Can be court again for the record, that is correct. Um and getting back to Commissioner Tonello's question regarding the timing, I didn't want to leave that. Um the condition we have a little trouble with this condition because we understand exactly your point. We wanna make sure that the sidewalk's there when the impacts occur. And we can't tie this to COs, right? Because that gets into whole different legal issues about building permits being issued and how you can hold up COs. So we thought Plat. We thought uh one idea that we had as an alternative is 18 months from
the approval of the site development permit. Is an alternative? I mean we understand where you're going. We'll get the site development permit. It will be another twelve months sort of under site horizontal development and then another six months before any homes are constructed. So in spirit, we're o we understand where you're going and and are willing to talk about what that condition should read.
Right. And then as long as the antenna is there so that the kids can walk. Yeah. I was thinking to, you know, you look at I'm looking at the site right now. And it in theory, hopefully when that road is or not not Hazel Road but the stub out there. When the when the roads are built and the sidewalks are built. Then the kids can keep walking.
Correct.
Yeah. Okay.
And to go back, I don't think my question got answered before, but do we have a number of the anticipated students that are gonna be added based on this property, this project?
Fifty si fifty eight. eight.
Fifty eight, so that's
elementary. Okay. Thirty one middle Middle and 40 high school.
Correct. Okay. So again, I didn't see that.
And just f f for everyone's knowledge, when this is actually a comes to the county, before it comes to the county, they send us a school site questionnaire. So we have an opportunity to say if we need a school site there. So we make that decision at that time. We also send them a school impact analysis that she's referring to. Well
it shows
that it's a good thing.
It wasn't so much the impact on the school, 'cause I know you guys are covered there. It was more for the 'cause most likely those trips that would be generated down Hazel by connection through Hazel is going to be mostly I would think would be m mostly school traffic, school related traffic. So you know, it's it's gonna be a smaller portion of that three hundred and sixty trip count that you guys are talking about for the total trip count for the You know, so you know, looking at those numbers, I mean you might be looking at half that amount, give or take, for the school trips is as Yeah.
Not a traffic engineer, but that's that's my thoughts on it.
Well I uh actually I do have a question for the traffic engineer. I don't know. I guess I'll ask all the I don't know if any of our people are Online or not, are they?
generally, which is There was there was some discussion about a operational issue at I think it was Cobra and Hazel. Is that right?
Hudson is what I believe he's
tested.
That's what he testified.
Well I'm just trying to figure out whether the connection at Hazel
Makes the situation on Cro Better or worse. Because they'd have to cross Cobra.
Probably Probably both. both. I I guess guess I'll ask both.
Well
just
real
quick on the paper.
I just want to make sure that when you all are making your decision, you're fully educated on not Not just what the residents may or may not want, but what is the effect on the existing operations at On Cobra. Okay, I because I really don't know because the reason I'm asking is because In theory if there's interconnection, these peaks folks that live on Hazel can now go east. through this project to get onto Hudson. In other words, they wouldn't necessarily have to go to Cobra to get out. Um But
then again, I don't know if cumulatively it's gonna ha negatively impact Cobra or not. I guess I'm looking for the traffic experts to tell me What is the effect of That interconnection on Hazel. What's the effect on Cobra? Is it negative or positive?
he testified earlier is that because the traffic study and methodology was completed prior to the addition of the Hazel Avenue connection that he did not analyze that.
Well then I'll ask our s I'll ask our staff then because apparently our staff was the one that asked for the connection to Hazel Presumably they must have thought what is the impact Pas so is that impact positive or negative as it relates to
No, because you have to look at where they're going to get to a arterial or collector roadway, that's Hudson Avenue. So either way, whether they shortcut through Helen, they're all still trying to get to that same place.
Hazel. Hazel. Yeah, I'm sorry.
I'd really like our traffic engineers to comment it or our traffic experts on what I I just wanna I'm want their opinion on the effect of That interconnect on Hazel and other operations.
I don't know. Do we have anyone that worked on this project?
Go ahead, S. You hear me? Yep. So I can I can tell you that at the at the time there's there was ample discussion at the board about being sure to make these connections where these connections are possible. So the staff erred on the side of that connection being required. With an understanding that you guys could evaluate it and and make a decision otherwise if you felt that was appropriate and Essen can describe
this.
I'm not I'm not faulting staff. I'm just asking did anybody Think about What the effect would be on Cobra.
This was this was not a an ask from the from the transportation planners. to connect to Hazel. This was probably coming more from the planners, the long range planner side, the M P U D planners asking for a connectivity kind of uh better connection, you know, network wise and supporting the What the board has been asking us to do. Uh that is the reason why it was never evaluated as part of their traffic study that we reviewed and approved.
The methodology does not address that segment of hazel ever being evaluated or analyzed. But I believe the the more relief points that you have on a you know, project for a project or other developments in the ne area, uh the more the network can support traffic dissipation, the better I think the performance would be. That is my opinion.
Do you think that having multiple connections
Better than having All the connection through Hudson, is that basically what you're saying?
Without actually analyzing with this additional project traffic, it's hard to say. That's why I made a general statement. Uh But
Es and I think this gets tricky because you you have the all the potential for the cut through traffic is what I've heard. And then looking at the road network, it looks like there's a pretty high potential for cut through traffic trying to avoid that Cobra Hudson intersection. And using Hazel.
That's my concern with the connection.
We're talking about a hundred and thirty students, so you know, I know some of them's gonna be walking, but some's some's gonna go in a car, so Um I think everybody else that's trying to leave the neighborhood will probably leave through Hudson. I don't see any really advantage to cutting down Hazel
That's what I'm saying. They're all get trying to get to the same place. Right.
Seems to me the sidewalk is the main issue. Not not the vehicular traffic.
Auto retro reflective flashing beacons crosswalk. So it is actually sort of signalized in a way. I just wanted to leave that just you thinking that it was just going to be by itself. But um,
is there I I guess um real quick, I know there's the also the there's the condition I understand on Hudson Avenue for the ten foot sidewalk for the portion of the Hudson Avenue frontage. Why why is is there a reason that that's ten feet instead of five? Is that some kind of county trail? Plane pedestrian
mu bicycle traffic.
And and I guess kind of where um where I'm going with that is is th there If they if they're willing to put it on Helen, does it make more sense to go ahead and just put it on Hudson?
Instead of on Helen in the first place.
Hazel. Hazel, I'm sorry. Sorry, Meg.
Goodness gracious. See what you did, John? H
mean.
Yeah, I got
it.
Um,
I d I think I was in a meeting where that was discussed and maybe Joe can There's sidewalk to the
west of Cobra Way on Hudson already. I Correct. A ten foot signal, but I could be wrong.
Does the applicant remember because I thought this was discussed about the alternative of using Hudson? Or was it not? I don't remember.
In terms of w w we are doing h Hudson in front of our project.
No, I know but the alternative of instead of the connection to Cobra being the the sidewalk connection to Cobra going through Hazel. Doing it on the right-of-way. Instead of doing it on one.
In terms of feasibility and right-of-way and confidence in our ability to execute on the condition, we are far more confident in our ability to execute on hazel in a pedestrian connection than we are on uh Hudson on to the west of our project site. There are right-of-way constraints. The sidewalks were improved, uh required taking, my understanding, takings were By the county. And again, we wanted to commit to a condition that we thought we could execute on. And really, our team is fully confident, much more
confident in our ability to execute on the Hazel Avenue connection than we are on the Hudson Avenue connection.
I think it makes the most sense anyway.
Okay, yeah, I just wanted to ask the question because I noticed there was mobility or not mobility fee, but there's
construction of the sidewalk along Hazel. So in a in the bike pad portion, correct. So In essence you spending twice, you're gonna put it there and you're gonna come back later and the county's gonna put it on Hudson. So that's that's why I was asking the question. Appreciate
it. Yeah, but arguably. Sidewalks on local roads are a good idea anyway. I mean I'm not sure it's wasted expenditure. It's good for the neighborhood. I mean if that was a brand new neighborhood we'd make them put sidewalks in.
Hey Joe, while you're up here, I d the only other thing I added on my list that I don't think you addressed was um one of the uh uh folks in the audience uh brought up the question about sewage. Yeah, the utilities I got
distracted. I think the question wasn't our sewage, it w I'm actually not sure what the question about series is.
Oh oh I'm question. We're not gonna get a permit if there's no capacity, so they're safe there. So we only get a permit if there's capacity. And through the review, we haven't gotten any word from the utility department, any denials, any flagging of any capacity issues or anything like that. That would be coming up. But again, if something between now and construction plan approval happened, we wouldn't get a permit.
And and again to s to staff, that's something that we normally haven't had lots of
discussion here about Whether or not there's capacity at the Shady Hills wastewater treatment plant, and right now I think utilities position is that there's adequate capacity. I think some previous reports have led us to be suspect of that, but they say it's okay. So
But it's something I would still like to see in the packet to show the Anticipated need and then the actual capacity area. We had that on a lot of other comp plan amendments.
We don't get them with the M PUDs.
Well it's still it'd be helpful to say. It would happen as soon as we submit a preliminary development plan. It's like the first thing that gets reviewed and
Well, Joe, I think you're missing the point. The Planning Commission had previously asked for A steam in about Water and sewer capacity.
on at the zoning stage or compliant and compliance stage. I'm not sure where we're only getting them on Maybe Mr. Petoast or Mr. Ingle know, but I think you're right. We're only getting it on the Complant amendments. We're not getting The same information. At the
zoning state. Sounds like I need to get that answer before the BOCC hearing and have it Very well documented.
Joe, at one time we were told there was zero uncommitted capacity at Shady Hills wastewater treatment plant. But there have been further discussions since that have indicated that that accounting of available capacity was from a legacy
uh
spreadsheet and it's not accurate and hasn't been adequately maintained and utilities position is that there's currently more than adequate capacity. at that treatment plant.
Well I understand I need to get a real good answer on that.
Right. Yeah, I just wanted to ask you a question on the record. So
Okay. Thank you very much.
Anything else? You done.
Mr. Chair, I know this is very odd. Um, but Mr. Wynne is back. Would he be able to speak? Mr. Clinton Wynne. I just needed to ask.
Rebut time.
Commissioner but you're gonna have to give the applicant rebuttal if you allow Mr. Assuming he's a an objector, you just gotta make sure you give the applicant additional rebuttal time.
No, I d I really don't want to go back and retrace steps.
Oh, I shouldn't go back and do it.
I'll listen to whatever the Planning Commission wants to do, but I I think we could this could go on forever. You know.
I agree.
Yeah.
Okay. Well I think we've had everybody speak that has needed an opportunity to speak. uh that came here at the appropriate time to speak. And I think we need to hear a motion.
The with regard to the Hazel Connect, I mean I I I agree with the BOCC when it comes to providing interconnects where we can. You know, we just don't know the trip generation is gonna What kind of impact is gonna be on there? So I
Well I think what we're looking at really is is bicycle and and pedestrian walking traffic not if if it's connected to there's
vehicle.
Well, to be clear, I think Mr Bontlots' point is if Right now the applicant what's written up require they're they're r they are connecting vehicularly to Hazel. So If the Planning Commission does not want to see a vehicular connection to Hazel You'd have to expand the L D C variation. Right now there's one under nine oh one D six eleven. it only says to the east, you're gonna have to expand that variation to also be to the west to Hazel. So moved.
Okay.
Okay, so is that motion is that is that motion to expand the variation remotion?
approve the request with the variation not to make a vehicular and I mean automobile vehicular connection. Two Hazel Avenue, the I would like the sidewalk to be constructed and then if I can get a second I'd like to discuss my reason why. Do
we have
a second?
I'll I'll give you a second so we can get to discussion.
I said this before. We had a case out in San Antonio.
Where
And staff. I understand the reason. I I understand the board's wants to see interconnection and I think that's that's great and when we're out in the middle of the county and we're taking r one ranch and connecting it to the next ranch to the next ranch. And we can plan those. so that we're not making highways out of people's residential streets, that's a good policy. But these are people who have lived here. They've lived here many, many, many years. Unfortunately. The gentleman I asked if he wanted to speak,
who I've known since I've been an adolescent. And I can tell you that he's not anti growth because he's made his entire Living doing growth. They've lived there. The residents have paid for the streets. They paid for these streets. And they went there. to live a quiet Rural. lifestyle, which is exactly why I we live where I live
too. and I would be mad as a hornet. If somebody all of a sudden decided, well Because you want to build a subdivision over there that you need to connect use my residential street. to create a grid network just for the c sake of creating a grid network. I can't destroy somebody's Way of life. And the you know, in the peaceful enjoyment of their property for doing so. And I think the developer recognized that. From the
get go. And again I'm not sure. laying fault at the staff. I understand that's a policy the commissioners have been pushing for, but I think We all have to use that we all we'll have to use discretion when we choose where to make those connections to make sure that we're not going to destroy somebody's peaceful enjoyment of their property. So that's why I wouldn't support it. But I'm all in support and in fact I'm very pleased that the developer would actually step
up and agree to build a sidewalk for the children all the way down to Cobra. It didn't sound like the neighbors had much opposition to that. I think that's an improvement to the street they've paid for. And um
That's that's the reason that I don't believe we should have the connection.
Clarification question. Did the applicant asked to not c interconnect? I mean I I know you you created a plan that didn't show an interconnection to the West. Was your original variation request Did it include the West too? So you don't have any objection if you're not going to be able to do the request was modified to include the east and west because that was your original request.
Which she said during her original presentation.
I understand that, but I wasn't sure if they're variation requests. From the clo the code included I know I know what they drew. I just want to know if they had requested originally a variation to not interconnect to the West. So in theory if if this was modified to say that you request a variation on both, you'd be fine with that. Okay. Uh I just didn't want to make this sound like this is a planning commission imposed variation. It was something that the applicant requested that apparently got withdrewn drawn somewhere in the process. Okay.
Well I d I do agree with everything that John said and I want to get the discussion on this because you know I agree completely regarding secondary access, but as far as emergency access goes, looking at the potential opportunity, and again I'm not an engineer, I'm just a dumb geologist, but the um the Opportunity for emergency access on I'm gonna mispronounce that Hazel. From a geometry perspective and access perspective seems to be a lot better than coming off of Edwards. Anyway.
Um So would that be a possible consideration?
Well I think. When Joe Simoneau came up and testified Then an emergency access to Hazel. is is an alternative. I preferable I would have questions about how that is done and to Have some assurance that it remains an emergency access and all of a sudden the gate doesn't come down and make Hazel a cut through street.
Yeah, and I agree completely with you on on that. Absolutely. Did you did you want to talk to Joe about something?
I
don't
I've
got
Well
I mean so so it's obviously up to the Planning Commission, but um The answer to the detailed question, typically emergency access means that only a firefighter or sheriff's deputy Has authority to open that gate. Okay. Including the residents. Right. There would be a gate there that o only emergency personnel could open. No. where we've had some discussion in the past is Okay, does that mean only for the emergency vehicles or what happens
if there was an accident at Hudson in the entrance to this project. Could could the Sheriff's Deputies let people out? through that row. But we generally interpret it as meaning if there's a true emergency And the we d it's up to the discretion of the Sheriff's Deputy or the Firefighter to determine whether the emergency situation dictates the opening of that gate. So there may be a situation where they may actually have to let residents out.
Emergency vehicles. Right.
I
I
think
that might be an impediment to the residents that live there. Yeah, they they'd have to get permission to open that gate. To get out.
I mean for what's worth only you Then that pretty much is the rule. It's only the emergency only emergency personnel can open. That's the whole point of it being emergency. Mm-hmm.
Okay.
But I mean again it's a decision for the Planning Commission. You might argue that it might help the residents on Hazel because if If it was during the school hours and Cobra was blocked. because of school traffic and an emergency vehicle needed to get to their home At least maybe they could get this other way on Hazel as opposed to being Stuck. At Cobra. But again it's up to the Planning Commission. But what you want to do on that?
With regard to the connections, I mean I'm I'm kind of conflicted uh because you know, we don't want to put an undue burden on the the people that live on Hazel. But at the same time I you know, I see as a citizen driving around I see get into a dead end road and you got a development with another dead end road right on the other side and you can't drive across, you know To me that comes across as looking like people that don't know how to do proper planning. Um so I I I side with the BOCC when it comes to making some of these interconnects connects. I think
that makes sense. And it looks like when this road was paved Um it it was stubbed out all the way to the edge of that property line as the applicant was saying. It it it goes well past uh the last two driveways that were on that street. So, you know, it looks like it was always intended you have the the little red marker signs at the end saying, you know, the road ends right here and it ends right at the property line. So it looks like it was always intended when it was paved. to me to interconnect at some point in the future, but Um on the other s flip side of it, obviously
it's gonna create trips on the road. um which is going to negatively impact the the residents. Um And we just don't know what that impact is. You know, we don't unfortunately because it was added last minute, they weren't able to incorporate that in the traffic study. So we d we can't see what those additional trips are. Um you know, I'm I'm looking at if I did my math right, about a hundred and thirty students, give or take, between the three schools you know, yes, some of those are gonna be walking um down this newly constructed sidewalk we're
talking about, but there's gonna be some vehicular traffic and so it's it's hard to make a decision on that. based on an unknown in terms of what the impact for vehicular traffic's gonna be. Because I don't I don't I don't see any residents having an issue with pedestrian traffic, but it looks like there might be an issue with ve vehicular traffic, so Um you know, I I'm generally in favor of the the interconnect, but at the same time We're working off the incomplete information. So
Well I think we're coming in after a situation has already been created and That being the case, I think I I'm in favor of I'm leaning toward the consideration of the people that live there now. There were therefore I would support the Sidewalk wholeheartedly. And I would I would not support the vehic vehicular traffic.
Mr. Chairman Mariano a couple of questions or a couple of things. Um one, did did we ever settle on the timing for the construction of the sidewalk?
The attorney had mentioned that the right-of-way.
or eighteen months from their the issuance of their site development permit. Right. Is that accurate?
Cammy Corporate again for the record. We were suggesting the eighteen months as an alternative, just to make it simple. Not confuse people.
Eighteen months from the time of the site development.
If I amended the motion to make it eighteen months Would that work for the school board? Yes. Yes.
Yeah, let me just Suggest that you leave it as a whichever occurs first, that or the black, because
Timing based on the or calendar day based deadlines because There's not really an issue. The issue is we don't have anything to hold up.
Right.
Like when eighteen months passes if they haven't done it, there's no approval in the system that we can hold up if they haven't done it. If you You gotta have some approval that we can hold up. So I mean I I'm okay with whatever you want to do in terms of the number of plated units, but
Right.
That's fine. Then maybe it's
Okay. so the this is the one that recurs first. You're okay with that? Yes. Okay. Okay, John.
But what about the number of units? Because two hundred and twenty five is too high.
If it's two hundred five, then we're good with the earlier of. That's sort of where we were offering the eighteen months as an alternative to that. So It's still the earlier of, right? So if the f whichever comes first. Richard Same
idea.
Okay.
It's not construction of.
Oh okay. I got ya. Yeah, yeah. All right.
Which occurs well before they're they build
Yeah. Okay. fine.
Thank you.
Okay, we have a
motion. We
have
a platform. We have
discussion. So you've you've amended
the
question.
I not sure I got clear I don't think staff got clear direction on this Hazel I get that what I'm hearing is a consensus that it that you want a full vehicular interconnect. I've not heard whether you guys want anything as far as Hazel being an emergency access or not. There was a suggestion over here that maybe it should be I don't know if that was part of the motion or not. I think you all need to be clear about I don't think that was part of the motion, but I think that's a good thing. Yeah. Well I'm not sure if Moody Mr. Moody can even consider it or not. So I guess I'd like to know whether that was Well if we're still in
discussion, I I think that would be a good idea.
That would not be part of the motion. Yeah if you like the people paid for that street. It's their street. I understand it's
county They've paid. Right. Okay, so we do have a motion.
if that's the only barrier between The development. And the street. And there's a fire, a firefighter is probably just gonna blow right through I mean, I'm just being honest with you. It it in some It it's possible that a firetruck would just go right through that and if there's a fire.
Yeah, it's probably better that way, left that way.
Yeah, it's a lot easier to run that delineator post over it is than a big gate, isn't it? Right.
So it may uh effectively become an emergency access in a true emergency, but But if you're saying
I guess I'm not sure what what the new developer would put on the other side. Well,
so
then it's a dirt road on the other side.
Think about this. What happens in the perimeter of every subdivision? is a buffer. There's going to be a perimeter buffer, so in this case there just won't be a road penetrating that
If they're gonna put up a full tree buffer there and I don't know I guess we have to just I'm just I don't ask out. If that becomes a Non well they have to have the sidewalk through there at a minimum. If that becomes a non Vehicular roadway.
Are we gonna put a will there be a buffer there?
Well the I thought it can penetrate the buffer and the Well I understand a sidewalk but but whether a fire truck will blow through there will depend. Mr. Moody makes a very good point, which is if there's a tree buffer there, I don't think the fire truck's gonna go through there.
Well, there's spacing between the trees and you might it depends where they put the tree, but Well,
our fire trucks are pretty tough. I don't think they're gonna wanna go through a tree. Okay. They'll go through that. They're not gonna go through a tree.
Well there's sixty feet in between trees, I think's John's point. So they could put the Yeah.
We're gonna have a trayless buffer.
I guess the issue is that right now because the they've redone their plan to show an interconnect there. Mr Tippin has got the answers. He's got his finger on the button. Well what's your what's your opinion?
Go
ahead, Brad.
So uh uh yes, um unless there is something done here to preserve that corridor to not have the buffer in that location, it could well end up with a tree in the middle there so that it could never have any connection other than the sidewalk. So and I don't know if that's
I guess the c but the the question is is there would be a buffer required around the perimeter of the subdivision. I see Denise shaking her. Yes. Okay.
So if that is the case then I don't think a fire truck would go through it. Mm-hmm. Unless you condition it to be an emergency access.
Yeah, I mean for all intents and purposes they could have a lot there with an easement between it with a sidewalk. Right.
Yeah.
But but your motion said you don't want emergency access, so that was very clear. That was that was the only thing I wanted to ask was Clarification on the motion. So that's the the motion is a bike ped connection only No vehicular access including for emergency vehicles or emergency
Any emergency connection whatsoever?
Pedestrian and bicycle connection only, yes. Okay.
Okay.
And your motion included the amendment on the Time. Deadline.
Yes. Either either eighteen months or the two hundred and twenty fifth unit, whichever occurs first. Okay, thank you.
Eighteen months from the issuance of the site development placard or permit. And I
appreciate the developer's offer.
Thank
you.
Okay, we have a motion and a second. Yeah.
Roll call vote, please.
Mr Jamie Girardi?
Aye.
Mr Derek Montlett?
Nay.
Mr. John Moody?
Aye.
Mr. Christopher Poole?
No.
Mr. Richard Canala?
Aye.
And Chairman Charles Gray.
Aye.
Four eyes, two nays, motion carries.
Do we have anything else on the agenda, Denise? Yeah we do. Yeah, yeah.