Live Local Act amendment protecting employment lands
What the county recorded
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What was said
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um organization and staff talking about the policy proposals um that we would like to bring up and address. So the first one out uh up is uh I'm gonna bring up David Engel to uh fill in and uh talk about the Lib Local.
Got the mic that we can add.
Is there something is there gonna be something on this?
No. Okay.
So that's interesting.
Good afternoon, Commissioners. David Engel, Economic Growth. I'm here today to represent uh David Goldstein, who was at the Planning Commission meeting this afternoon in Newport Ritchie.
You won't hear a
sound, it does pick
up on the tape though. And uh and and also in collaboration with Nicterios Pitos, the planning director, uh we assisted David in crafting a uh two thousand twenty four policy proposal submission for Live Local. And before I get into the dynamics of the proposed document, I would just like to indicate that the Board of County Commissioners primary platform and strategic plan addresses the fact that there is a need and we have to develop a balanced community with a
balanced diversified tax base. We are basically been um identified as a bedroom community for many years, and the board has realized and acknowledged that a balanced tax base and a job creating component in our economy will make a sustainable, equitable community over the long term. So keeping that in mind, uh last year the uh state legislature passed and the governor signed into law the Live Local Act. And the Live Local Act
is very intrusive to local land use policy and also fiscal policy. The the statutes now as they read indicate that in any commercial or industrial zoned area of any community, a live local project consisting of a minimum of 40 percent low and moderate housing can can entertain a site within that area, and it consumes very uh very scarce industrial and job-creating land. In
fact, the board has been concerned about this for the five years I've been the Plan uh Economic Growth Director. And and two years ago they instituted a a study from the Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council trying to identify the balance in how we can go about providing the jobs but also maintaining and reserving land for employment. And to that end, uh the um The propo the law as it reads today is in direct conflict with board policy. The Live Local
Act also does other things that are very
detrimental to the community and that's our fiscal responsibility. If there is projects that consist of Live Local and there's 70 affordable units or greater, they those projects and those units are exempt from ad valorem taxes from up to eighty percent of the average monthly income level in the region. Uh any any those units and those households, those units to pay zero ad valorem taxes. And from above
one eight w above eighty up to one hundred and twenty percent, there is a seventy-five percent reduction in ad valorem taxes. And it the reason that it's important to note is is that residential development constitutes a cost-intensive development for the for the county. Residential consumes more of county services and costs than it delivers in taxes. And the balancing act is in the employment side. Industrial
and also commercial development generate more tax dollars. And we need that to cover government services. And I'll make a p case in point. When we're a growing county and what are the pressures and uh And challenges for us down the road. That's providing schools, parks, recreational amenities, and also basic life safety. That's fire, that's uh our our our paramedics and the sheriff's department.
And as you know, the sheriff is very undermanned as it is. And if we don't have the tax revenue coming in, that means that That the rest of the county is subsidizing the housing that uh we're we're injecting into these industrial commercial areas. All of our industrial commercial areas are not designed and comprehens comprehensive plan for housing. Um in fact We are promulgating and and working with certain developers to bring forth low and moderate projects, whether
it be through our community development department. or initiatives through our planning and development department. And those properties and projects are well situated. They're near schools, they're near retail amenities, they're near parks, and they're not isolated in industrial areas that have no amenities in them in for residential development. So in fact, we believe that There w needs to be a revision into the current law. And the revision is focused on the balance
between jobs and um and and housing. And if you remember, there was a very important chart in the Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council study showing that Pasco County is a dramatically imbalanced towards housing and not against jobs. So there's a second uh there's a actually an atten uh appendix to the the documented revised um law proposal and you'll see it's housing jobs balance impact on commuting on commute times And
we are proposing that the law be amended that for counties and cities that are below point nine um on this chart, meaning that they're biased towards housing and not have enough jobs to support the housing, that they be exempt from the Live Local Act. That'll be uh a more equitable way of producing low and moderate housing uh within within the region and within the state. I I am very um sensitive to affordable housing back in
the nineteen eighties when I lived in Jersey. I was on the s New Jersey Supreme Court Affordable Housing Council. And we drafted up an affordable housing plan for the entire state. And the courts uh had some wisdom at that point because they indicated that to meet certain regional goals, they gave every city in the state the opportunity to craft their own plan because the courts realized that every city was unique. And um this doesn't this one size fit all
doesn't work and it really hurts Pasco County.
Any questions for David? Well I I do have some questions. Ms. Mr.
Okay. Um David, I appreciate the report. Um it lines up with what Pasco's looking for. We've been too long a bedroom community to other areas in Hillsboro and and also other counties where people are having they're living here but they're actually m going from here to work elsewhere. And we've been working very hard. I know for the six, seven years that I've been here, we've been working very hard to make as many jobs as possible in our county to where we don't uh we definitely
don't need to lose warehouse and jobs and things of that nature to Hernando County to the north or Hillsborough to the south. We need those here. And even in saying that and the growth is large because we're list as fifth. largest community gro growth in the in the country. The fact of it is, is we don't have enough housing here right now for all the jobs we have in coming for our economy. And uh we just need to be sure we
don't lose any warehouse space or any big jobs and manufacturers and things of this nature to other counties around us, we need those in our county and need him here so to support the residential that we do have. And in fact it actually helps our citizens by having that because it keeps our taxes on our citizens down. And we definitely need that.
Well you know Commissioner the the one the way it's written today uh really dissuades uh people from obtaining local jobs. If we're taking and consuming very scarce employment generating lands, then the people that are coming in and live local, where are they going to work? How are they going to get to work? So we're basically putting people in a situation where the affordability factors diminish substantially.
Yeah. It's very important to have affordability and workforce housing. And in some of the like Likuchi that we're trying to grow and and bring more business and all in that area. We also need workforce housing for those people to live in. A lot of people talk about the fact that uh intro house for new families are three hundred thousand dollars. There's people who can't even afford to pay their uh PVAS or paving assessments and yet they're looking to have to an entry house for them would be
three hundred thousand. They can't come up with that. They can't come up with the money for the paving a road. So It's very important to watch out uh for the expanding and bringing more business into our county. Commissioner Starkey.
Uh first I wanna um thank the board for uh going forward with that project in my district with Dominium yesterday that will bring two hundred and sixty eight um affordable housing units to the community at sixty percent AMI. Eighty percent and a hundred twenty percent. you know, I don't I'm not sure how affordable that is, but it's better than nothing. But I I i there's there's no doubt that we could have all predicted this was gonna happen when the Sadowski Trust Fund um was continuously
used for other purposes other than what it was found. And um I'm just wondering if you're not sure. I mean I think we all agree that workforce housing is important to the state and we have an issue with it. But it's just I think the manner of delivery And and wouldn't it make sense to just maybe funnel some more money to our community development departments in the counties and offer more opportunity for
those people who are in this business. to build more because right now they have to compete for grants. I I believe it's um It can be uh it was a lottery. for getting some of these funds. Right? Not for ship. Which ones have the lottery our experts back here. But I I know that we've had s um we had an adult workforce housing or affordable housing, um One that we all approved
to go forward that was on State Road fifty four, near Old Fifty Four. And we we helped them move forward, but they didn't win in the lottery, so they couldn't build. This was before your time, so uh
They actually they are building now. That's Tanager Square. And what you're talking about.
Okay. Um so commissioners for the record, Marcy Esberg, Director of Community Development, and I think what you're speaking Of is the lottery at the state level for the low income tax credits.
Yes, and yes that if we offered more of that money. Couldn't the companies that where this is their space and their lane and know how to manage these kind of projects build more potentially?
They could but the those that lottery is millions of dollars and we're we're not even near that and we're getting between five and seven million dollars of ship funding, but I have a proposal that we're gonna discuss a little bit later about dividing that money up. 'Cause that is an issue.
So so one of the pr problems with this kind of project that was brought up at a fact um meeting. And a workshop was Um the companies that do this are set up to know how to do the income verification and to manage those, but I don't believe that these companies who are coming in have that expertise to um do the income verification and management.
Yeah.
And and that's who's that gonna fall to? That's another cost that will probably come to the county that is not fund and with the loss of Advalorum. and the hit on the schools, the fire department, the sheriff's office, it's gonna also burden our county staff to be the ones regulating Uh and being sure that they're following the rules.
Mm-hmm.
So I I think the whole pro program while while uh a worthy idea, it just needs to continue to be tweaked.
If I can give you some Commissioner real quick, if you can look at this this sheet real quick, I'm gonna give you some numbers real quick for unemployment rates. Just interesting how this part in here? No, I'm not gonna give it because I just came out yesterday.
Okay.
Was that ratio point nine? Yes, ma'am. Okay. So to the right I have Pinellas County, two point nine percent unemployment rate. Hillsboro, 3.1% unemployment rate. To the left. Citrus County or on the line, four point six. Hernando, four point oh
Anything starting to you get what I'm saying? I mean uh i only did the five that had in the Tampa Bay area, the statewide unemployment is 3.1. But I'm saying we we just understand what a point nine is. It's that's gonna be a hard one to explain to folks, number one, but I want to uh you know let's talk about and I love it exactly and I leaned over to Ralph and I said, Ralph, how do I actually explain this point nine? And he said simply jobs poor community. You know, we have our jobs for our community, and we should say this, Commissioner, we have more people leaving, like we said the last time
we're here, Pasco County than any other county in the whole Tampa Bay area to work somewhere else. Okay, we're in the top I was close to the top
ten for for
that.
I was I was wondering how you're gonna get that data, but that makes sense. That's a that's a great way to go. Um you know when I when I look at The amount of industrial land that we've taken, preserved, and people like uh Powers Dorset over in Software was like holding on his property, just took all the residential property, switch it to industrial, that's the type of thing you want. Um and and to the state of Florida you would think that all right, you got all these people wanna come to Florida now for all the right reasons, right? All smart people, we all live here now. So
for
for that there's and there's more coming. Nobody shut the door behind us, so they're all coming. They're gonna need jobs when they get here. Right? And if we take take away the industrial land, the commercial land, the mixed use land, and just let housing go in, all of a sudden you're gonna be in a situation where they're not gonna be able to work and those numbers even gonna get worse and it's gonna it's not good for the state. I mean, how many times you hear about when people are shipping stuff down to Florida? It's expensive to bring it down to Florida, but those trucks are going back empty empty because there's nothing to bring back up.
Right.
The more stuff we make yet, the better off we'd be anyway to balance out our whole transportation issue with freight.
No. So
don't
exasperate your job support. Right.
So j so job support is great for us. Yeah. And I and I think just that flexibility that, you know, sometimes you're gonna hold on to land longer for industrial. And I know when I first started that was one of the big things over on the Shady Hills Road. uh Hayes Road where they had in uh industrial that was there. And switched over to residential. And you know, cost jobs for that area that would have been right there right now. Instead we got residential.
Yeah at the same time we got Uh we got a lot of jobs coming in but they're not high paying jobs. So when you got all the inflation and everything going up, I had someone email me today that the commissioners were raising taxes. Well the values are going up. We're not changing any millage to raise taxes, but the fact of it is it's gonna cost our citizens more and more money. Inflation setting them at the grocery store. They're gonna pay more. Um and the job
it seems like the job pay and the market out there is not staying caught up with with what's happening. So it it's really unbalanced to where people can be able to work here and be able to live 'cause they they're looking for better jobs. So we we need to strive to try to get as much of better jobs as we can, higher paying jobs.
So so I would say if we can and we we're going to continue that, if if we can strike the whole part of changing our industrial land for letting those guys come in, just strike the whole thing. If you can't get there then use a job jobs poor argument to move forward.
That's the argument that they use is to exclude those counties that are jobs poor and then we be be removed from that uh clause and the and the uh rather than repealing the whole it's a good argument. I think it's a good argument and I think it's an argument that um I've been talking with the legislators that they they think it's palatable that they could even sell next session. So
this has to be an amendment. This is there's not a state senator uh that is sitting in the state senate that is going to do a bill, full bill to to pull her bill, right? And we're all laughing but I'm being here that lastly it's gotta have to be understandable. Uh Um and I and and I think we can put a couple of those bullet points and I'll leave it with this. The same message of just be prepared to answer this question, guys. Because the same thing they've said, that's fine. If we implement this policy and we change some of these that we feel is a benefit, which we don't, you know, what are you gonna do to expedite affordable
w uh workforce work workforce housing projects in your county?
And we just did one yesterday and Port Ritchie's doing doing one. I think it went through. So we are working on it.
And I do want to give you, I just heard in some of the reading I didn't. Some municipalities are actually passing ordinances that would require a public hearing for development proposals invol involving affordable housing. So they're not they're making public because the public has also been a little bit upset that industrial has Changed and so I'm just on my reading that I found out some municipalities are doing that around the state. But last thing I think the other discussion has to be what is affordable housing, right? Affordable housing affordable truly isn't somebody who couldn't afford a $2,000 you know one
bedroom could afford it at $1,800, right? So what truly is and maybe that dynamic needs to be discussed because you're gonna see developers you know take a bite and you've already seen this and move these projects forward. Um but I think we need to have a bigger discussion with the legislature on on true workforce housing, not just a two thousand dollars off of two hundred, two thousand um two hundred dollars off of two
thousand a month. I mean in it's gonna be difficult to not push people into rentals compared to ownership. Right. And that's that's a big issue right now because the interest rates as high as they are, it's driven that cost up. uh hard to get 'em financed. W they they're doing all sorts of greater things, buy down rates, so it's it's a difficult move. But again, you you just don't want to take away your prime industrial job creating land. Of housing. And somehow it's got a stu it's got to shift. Right.
That that's easily explained.
Sure. Sure. And and and I think staff did a good job, you know, and they it's uh uh two parter, you know, so excluding those counties that are job four, uh and be removed from that mandatory, you know, that that developers can come in and use these lands that are were never intended that way. And we have a also plenty of residential a zone property as it is right now. And uh Um I don't think that was ever the intent of what the president and the legislature really wanted to do. It's
just one of those things they put it into place and let's see what happens. I remember in the discussions, they when they think thought of Pasco County, they thought of nineteen and an existing building that sat empty there for years that someone would come in and take up and utilize that space. Nice concept. Genius. Has it happened? No. But um what you know, it backfired on them, you know, uh with their idea. So but it's a it's uh uh if you know I I think the staff, like I said, did a good job and
we clearly show that first one and on the second part it was a two-pronger. Uh and and David did mention this, is that you make the uh mandatory property tax exactly. Yeah. um make it an option like the other um tax exemption that's currently in the bill for those counties that have law enforcement officers per capita rate that is at the bottom third in the state. Uh that way it's it it narrows in On those counties. It gives us you know.
And starts with the letter P
Yes.
And and I I know you guys are all good at this, but remember there was there was a lot of good things in the bill. There was eight hundred and eleven million dollars extra for sale, for ship, for the home time heroes. So as we're talking to your delegation, and I'm telling you guys, call them up after talk to them and say we're we're concerned about this. We're hearing from other county commissioners around the state. You all did some amazing things in this bill. You know, I always hate to saying the word butt because that always takes away everything you just said. But there are some things we need to come back. And I and I think they're gonna be ready to make some technical changes, but I just also want to leave you with this. You
know, I also have been told when I brought this up time after time with legislators that we have to wait another year because of uh Senator Pasodomo. Cath Senator Pasodomo will be here two more years after she's Senate president. So, no, I would say we need to do something.
We can do it now. Now and I and I think it's it's a We've been talking with uh um some of our members of our delegation and uh they're receptive to the idea of uh proposing something and uh we'll we'll continue to talk with them. This will be an issue that'll be brought up at FAC as well. Uh what comes out and will it be legislation that they write next month when that it does come up for their policy? Uh or will it be, you know, we support change. Um But I'll even say Mm my counterpart in Hillsborough and Pine Ellis
we've been meeting this summer. Um Hillsboro and and and uh th those two counties they would like us to be united. I said we can be united on the issue that we need to do change on on live local. We might not be on the same same page or deal with the same issues that we have. We're a job, poor county, our people are living here and working in your counties. Um and you know we have uh an issue with the law enforcement on the on the tax exemption. Um but w we're I think you're
gonna see all counties and municipalities united that we're already seeing problems. Even though it's been a short period of time, we need to go in there and tweak it again.
So with that with FAC when they look at something they're gonna look at something and get behind it one way or another. They're gonna look at what's good for the overall state.
Correct.
Like even the Gulf Coast consortium after we correct picked it up and ran with that for a bit they shifted that back over just the twenty three counties and they've worked that issue 'cause it's unique to them. And I think if you The job scores a good argument for us. But if you push that argument, you may lose a Hillsborough, which you're gonna want in the mix. So just I think it's come back to let th let the locals figure it out. They've already put their plans in place. They've had citizen participation saying where they want these jobs to go. We all want jobs in the county. Give us the flexibility.
I want to ask you a question. Yesterday, Marcy, at the uh board meeting we had a couple of items coming out Tuesday. Uh we had a couple items coming up. One was Dominion, as Commissioner Starkey talked about, and they had a low-income thing of 60% AMI. And right behind it we had another one coming in that was gonna be eighty percent MI. the Dominion was able to say that they wouldn't be looking to get the tax break from the property taxes, but the other one wouldn't take that position and they were selling it for more money. How do they break that out? Is there
a way to simplify that we can make maybe recommend make make a recommendation?
So financing of affordable housing is not my specialty, but I will say that both of those um developers finance in totally different ways. And Dominium is a national company. and they have deeper pockets and they use four percent um non competitive tax credits because they have a lot more funding. to do the work that they do. Uh and that's why the funding that they get makes
them go for sixty percent or left. It's tied to that funding source. That's why they do it that way. Whereas Bayonet Gardens is um you know, they've got a whole section of land and that section of land they're using different projects for. So one of the things that came through on uh consent was putting that project forward for the nine percent competitive tax credits. And that will have to be um served at a certain rate and then the
rest of their project, whatever they do, whether they di g they go to eighty percent or up to one twenty. So it uh my understanding is that is all tied to the funding source. So again, this tax credits will if if they go for tax credits and they get those tax credits, they'll tell them you have to rent to people of a certain income.
Okay. All right. Any more on the subject, Janine? Any more on the subject?
Okay, let's go the next one.