multifamily building and fire codes

1:19:41So now we've got our 40 apartment construction co-host. I see we have Chief and some strong team in back, JP Murphy and company.

1:19:51We got a whole team, Commissioner. Brian Gwynn, Fire Chief Pasco County Fire Rescue.

1:19:59R40, BCC 26-0107, is a discussion that was asked upon from the board on building codes and fire codes for multifamily construction. So the intent of this is just to do a basically a factual education session here where we just go through some of the state or some of the statutes and some of the rules and regulations. That govern our multifamily construction and allow you guys to have an informed discussion afterwards. So,

1:20:30um, first slide. National Fire Protection Association, it's a national standard, which is important. It's a reference and adopted in state codes to help balance life safety and construction codes. NFPA 101 has been adopted by 43 states. NFPA 1 has been adopted or referenced specifically by over 90. States, Florida's included as of being as of adopted 101 and 1. Other codes in reference other states use are the IFC and the IBC, but it's important to know that all of those codes, NFPA,

1:21:01IFC, or IBC, all have inclusion for 13R systems in low-ride multifamily.

1:21:09So I know there's been some conversation as to whether or not multifamily apartments are safe or not. Statistically, they're extremely safe. Modern multifamily structures have a fire death rate of one-sixth of that of a single-family home, so you're 600 times more likely to die in your own house than you are in an apartment complex. Nationally, in 2023, there are 32 or 3,022. 322,000 residential structure fires, roughly of those 76,000 are multifamily,

1:21:40that's a less than 25%. Here within Pasco County, out of the 364 residential structure fires that we had, only 31% of those were multifamily. Only two of those were actually significant fire damage with inside the multifamily. The rest of them were cooking or some type of other fire. But that still represents about less than twelve percent of the fires that we have here in Pasco.

1:22:02This is kind of the regulatory framework for how the life safety code and building code is kind of laid out, and I'll let JP kind of run through that if you want to.

1:22:11Sure, thank you, Chief. Walker. Deepic tape.

1:22:16Well we have a podium mic, so that still works. So JP Murphy, Director of Building Instruction Services. Um so as Chief mentioned, one of our our we believe our chief jobs today is uh we hear you, you you you have possibly some desired changes you'd like to see you'd like to see uh be effectuated, and we're gonna talk about a little bit of the regulatory framework on how that happens. So statutorily, the Florida Building Code as well as a life safety Um uh operated and managed and and um decided at the policy

1:22:47level by the the Florida Building Commission, which w operates under DBPR and Statute 553.73, and of course the State Fire Marshal for the Department of Financial Services.

1:23:01At the high level, the codes are set at the state level. Locally, the authority having jurisdiction, in this case, the fire marshal or in building construction services, your building official, are responsible for administration and interpretation of technical codes. It is not the job of Florida's 478 different municipalities to create their own. Version of the code. But the good news is there's processes to change that code. We go through that process every three years

1:23:31on an ongoing basis when we're talking about doing wholesale major changes to the code. So if you're looking at those two top boxes of the Florida Building Commission as well as the State Fire Marshal, that's where your major level changes will occur at both the Florida Building Commission level and with the State Fire. Fire Marshal. Now we are allowed to adopt a local and if you could c click the next slide for me, Gina. We are allowed to adopt local amendments to technical amendments to both the fire code and the

1:24:01Florida Building Code. And Chief, if you don't mind, I'll just go through all of them while we're on a roll here. On the fire side, that there's a minimum notice that's got to be required, strictness of what has to be addressed or what is seeking to be addressed, it's got to be local to that community. Typically, it's geographical. Graphically local, it might be response times based. There's a number of different factors, but these are very minor technical amendments that are adopted. If the changes are made, we've got to create a process for effectuating those

1:24:32changes. And then there's a waiting period, basically, tolling period. Any any party can come and challenge that, and there's a hearing process for that. Similarly on the build the Florida Building Code side, it's a little different for municipalities. Uh particularly at the county level, we have we have two extra levels. Um here in Pasco County we have the the building commission or the the the building board and that building board would want would hear uh any proposed changes, they would hear uh technical information,

1:25:02they would hear data because all of these changes need to be based on data that are local to the community. Anything that goes beyond regional or state variation again is left back to that state level where where the both the building commission and the fire marshal's office would would adjudicate those items. It should be uh excuse me, Dina, if you could go back. It should be noted that One thing we can't do on either side is we can't discriminate in a local technical amendment based on materials, based

1:25:33on construction type, or based on any different products. And then the last thing is we can't just wholesale adopt a new product that's never been tested before. So those kind of are the four key elements that are guardrails in which we're looking to effectuate change. So keep it in mind that local technical amendments are a scalpel, they're not a hammer. That hammer exists at the state level, and we can participate in that code change process. So that's how Pasco County could could do both levels of that. So now

1:26:03you can go ahead. And I think uh either Chief or the Fire Marshal are gonna talk about the fire systems at play here.

1:26:10So the 13R system, which was inside the cobalt fire that's uh that's specifically being referenced. So NFPA 13R residential fire sprinklers is tailored specifically to create a balance between life safety, um, survivability, and affordability in the construction phase as well. The R 13R system can be implemented uh with certain limitations. Uh One of one of the major ones being that maximum of four stories, no fuel fired equipment in the attic space, which

1:26:40is um you know furnaces, things like that. There's no storage allowed inside the attic space. The residents can't have access into the attic space from the individual apartments. And uh minimal combustion bloating and it has to be compartmentalized. So there has to be fire stops every 3,000 square feet, and then this particular building met all those qualifications. As well. But it's also important to note that the sprinkler's primary focus is just preventing loss of life by preventing flashover, allowing access or allowing egress out of the building, and um you

1:27:10know increasing survivability. Which, if you look at the statistics, you know, you're six times more likely to die in a house fire than you are in a building fire. I think statistically we show that the code is kind of working the way it It's intended to. Um and then of course in the thirteen R system sprinklers are not required in the attic.

1:27:29This is just another graphic just showing the difference between the 13 and 13R system. We don't have pricing on the difference between the two. We would probably have to refer back to the building associations to get that information from you. But we could probably anticipate that it is a significant increase over the 13R system based on the fact that NFPA has allowed a variance for it.

1:27:55And then uh finally some of the questions that we we received was uh was there lightning protection on this building? And the answer to that is for every building other than a hospital that it that is regulated by ACA, lightning protection is not required. Um but it if is it if it is required um for any reason, there is an NFPA uh Code 780 that does deal with that. So there does it uh exactly exist a nationwide standard in which they can be implemented and our plan reviewers do look at that if it's required

1:28:25for those hospitals, but um for no other structure in e either one of our codes is there a requirement for lightning protection. And we did have a conversation just to piggyback off of uh uh with Chief's last statement, we did have a uh conversation with the Florida Fire Sprinkler Association, they'd be happy to participate in any Future uh investigation or or meeting on the matter. The cost difference between the two systems we're talking, particularly for a building the size of Cobalt, is about triple the cost for the for the two systems. Similarly,

1:28:55the the running cost for a lightning protection system is about one to three percent additional to the cost of of the um uh the total project. Now, however, uh the the Florida Building Commission did look at lightning protection in 2018, and those changes failed to meet the threshold to become adopted. But that conversation is ongoing, and we do see that uh coming year to year. The problem really is, as Chief mentioned, is there's not a whole lot of data that supports wholesale

1:29:26losses of buildings as a result of these types of things because they are so safe and And that they are designed to meet certain mitigation requirements, again, protecting people, not necessarily the structure.

1:29:39And so we want to do this together.

1:29:41Yeah. And so just a few uh details about the uh cobalt fire specifically and I I know we have some of the residents here and and we don't wanna you know we just want to remind you know this is just factual based information and we don't wanna, you know forget about the tragedy that all 200 of them individuals are still going through this day right now. So we do know that the cause of the fire was a lightning strike. We have documented proof of that. And we do know that the fire strike disabled the panels. It disabled the panels in building two, three

1:30:12and one simultaneously.

1:30:16Roofing systems during the fire were destroyed. Some of the draft stops that were inside there that helped the fire spread a little bit quicker. We did have multiple structural collapses throughout the building. We put almost 2 million gallons of water on there at a little over eight pounds per gallon. which is a significant amount of water weight. Uh that's why a building is currently structurally unsound. It meets the criteria for demolition and we have it currently posted as unsafe and insecure.

1:30:46Yeah. Yeah,

1:30:47and so what we don't know, just as as a follow-along, is we don't know the current status of the building. We've not received any reports back from the property ownership group, which in my understanding will go to the fire marshal's office. Um we're not sure of what the exacerbating factors are. It's still kind of a very new um new incident, though the immediate emergency is gone. Uh we are awaiting the owner's plans for the building, uh and we are also looking at the building. looking to to know what the owner's plans are for recovery or salvage of personal items. Understand that when we mark a building unsafe,

1:31:17we're saying as the public official that is not safe for entry. In fact, the Fire Marshal and and Pasco Fire Rescue Evacuated some of their personnel because of the the status and structure of the building. I believe we even left some equipment in there because it was unsafe to retrieve. So after that, it's up to the property owner to figure out what they're going to do for recovery of the building if they think it can be rebuilt. Leaning on their experts, their engineers, their architects, and looking at what the current status is of the building. Of course, this is wood frame construction as

1:31:48it's as That's exposed to the elements over time. Wood, plywood delaminates, OSB delaminates. And of course, with that much water damage, water in many cases is worse than the fire that actually predicates it. And so with that much weight on the structure, we still currently believe that is unsafe for entry, and that's what we've let the public know. And so with that we have a uh Deputy Building Official Jeff Blaskovich and I have our our electrical chief Clay Tomer here, if there's any specific questions you'd like to answer.

1:32:18Any questions? I do, Chair. Commissioner Weightman. Thank you.

1:32:25Has

1:32:27So obviously, you know, affordability is a factor in every single family home, multifamily building, commercial structure, you name it. has as as the affordability issue has

1:32:43increased over the last few years. Has the state um watered down the building code to try to make product more affordable for folks to live in, like for example the fire sprinkler system you talked about. uh the non-mandatory lightning detection uh devices that could be put on there. Obviously if they're required that increases those those requirements would increase the cost to

1:33:14build, which means increased uh monthly rents or an increased home price. Has I I then I know the state really is working hard to balance affordability and and cost within the building code.

1:33:29In in your expertise, has that happened? Or do you not know? Or is it stuck back in twenty, you know, the 2018 rules, which was pre-COVID and pre-

1:33:41Commissioner, I can say that uh prior to 2021 uh multifamily apartment complexes less than three stories weren't required to have sprinkler systems at all. The building code has since been updated and required those. So I think that's an example of how it's not getting watered down. They're using evidence based um data to develop a a a a nationwide or a standard template for building codes and fire codes. And I think that's a safe way to kind of govern as well. But you know, they're constantly looking at those changes. I

1:34:11know we have a new update coming out next year, the new ninth edition for the NFPA standards will be coming out as well, and they rarely ever go back. It's usually a a stepping stone as to what next level we're going to increase to uh you know in conjunction with the builders.

1:34:25So in our legacy apartment buildings, the ones that's been, you know, aren't as new as this. What triggers an updated sprinkler system or safety mechanisms within the building within our code? A r a a basic remodel? A roof job? Is there anything within our rules that require These I'll call them legacy, the older apartment buildings that aren't in today's safety standards, building code standards, uh to come into today's

1:34:56compliance uh rules and regulations.

1:35:02The unfortunate uh answer to that is only during a change of occupancy. If the building goes from multifamily residential to a different type of occupancy, then they have to bring that building up to the new standards. Hmm. So

1:35:15it's a different set of rules than if we like commercial building, somebody buys it and does something different. They have to come into today. Yeah, change the oxygen. Okay. Thank you guys. Thank you both.

1:35:24Right. So to go back to some of the things we were talking about, local amendments are gonna be something significantly different in our area compared to the rest of Florida to make a change. And I wonder Everybody gets hit with hurricanes. How did Miami Dade come up with stronger standards? than the rest of the state. For Hurricane Standard, which is w w was done. So how d how does that how did they get how did they get to do that compared to Um I

1:35:55mean we all get hurricanes, so how do how does that s how did they get that separated out?

1:35:58Don't know the full history on that. I do know that they do have a few stricter standards, but from my understanding it was on a specific style of building. That's usually how these things work, as JP mentioned, it's more of a scalpel than it is a hammer. A unique type of construction, uh unique geographic area, say a barrier island or something like that, is generally where the state will allow uh changes to the fire and life safety and building code. So um we would have to dig in more into that specific geographical area to figure out how they made those changes. But

1:36:29um that's the best answer I can give you currently.

1:36:32Okay, and I'm I'm sure we can't use response times because I've been to Miami and trying to drive like two miles was like 45 minutes for an FAC conference. So I know that's not that's not gonna be something that works. Um When I look when I look at as far as cost goes, when you kinda like break that into it One of the things that happens with Miami Dade is you can have a house down there. With the new codes, your wind coverage is a lot less than up there in Pasco County if it's built better to those standards. Is that something that can be factored into actually

1:37:02minimize what the cost difference would be because of the insurance benefit?

1:37:07I have that.

1:37:09Yeah, I don't think either of us could speak intelligently to how insurance is kind of

1:37:14okay. But as far as we've got to talk about costs, that can be one of the costs because when it comes to especially when a person is gonna pay a monthly payment based upon what the company that's got the apartment is gonna charge them, if their insurance cost is less, they may still go market driven, but they may be able to, we may uh be able to bring that down. Uh so I think it's part of a longer conversation as we look into this even further, because obviously we're not gonna resolve it today. Um you mentioned one thing about in the attics, like every 3,000 square feet had to be separated. So tell

1:37:44me what exactly that means is like every 3,000 square feet there's gotta be a firewall.

1:37:48Not a firewall, it's a draft stop. So it's a different uh than an actual firewall. It's not fire rated, it doesn't have a fire hour it doesn't have a fire hour rating. It's just a draft stop to keep smoke and other things from moving over the next chamber.

1:38:01Alright, so we a and but we have firewalls down below with all the all the residents down below. Yes. Do you think that it makes sense for us to go maybe take a look at that? Because if had we had firewalls going up to the ceiling Skipping everything else because this lightning strike hits the roof, breaks open air, it's gonna burn right there. Could have been controlled a lot better if it was just isolated with a firewall, or is that not up there?

1:38:25It'd be all speculation at this point. That like we said earlier, we got a data set of one right now. So um, you know, uh an act of God unfortunately that creates this kind of devastation. I can't speak to whether a firewall would have slowed that down.

1:38:41Well the the purpose of the firewall in from apartment to apartment is to keep the fire there so the yes it can't penetrate through. So if you go to the ceiling Other than the asphalt shingles that they're going across, it's gonna stop from there, wouldn't it? Yes, sir. Yeah.

1:38:56And common sense says that it would work. Yes. I like common sense. Yes, sir.

1:39:01Uh so if we so we're gonna look at something to do that wouldn't be that expensive to control that. And let's face it, if that hit hit, now we just work on a one segment of three thousand square feet compared to it stretching over, maybe that's something that wouldn't be that big of a cost. that they they could say, you know what, this is something we could do inexpensively. It is a rare event the way it happened. I mean first time we had anything like this happen to go through. Um let me talk about the um the alarm system. So the alarm system got shut down. You called it a fire panel, but the alarm

1:39:31system got shot down, delayed the access by 25 minutes. Is there something that can be done with a code to look at specifically that to make sure those things? by a lightning strike aren't gonna be able aren't gonna be able to hold up to the standard, even if the whole building can't, but at least the alarm system to again speed up the recovery time or the response time to be able to protect the people in the building.

1:39:55So your specific question was to whether or not we can protect the alarm system from a lightning strike? Yes, to a better degree, because

1:40:02obviously

1:40:03this hit

1:40:03it, blew

1:40:04it out, and then it did. So basically all we lost was the monitoring part of the alarm system. So uh all the smoke detectors inside still would have activated uh independently when they detected smoke as well. And the unfortunate side is during the lightning strike. That's part of the investigation we have coming out that the wiring was actually just severed, disconnected completely. So there would have been no known type of protection that we could have installed that would have kept that alarm system active. Now what we could look at are independent systems

1:40:34so that one building wasn't tied into the two others as well, which would have kept their systems activated. But as I said, they were only down temporarily for about a week and a half until they could get those back up. Okay.

1:40:48Um no right now only hospitals need lighting lightning protection from the state.

1:40:58I'm just looking at my notes here. Do other are there any other counties in the state that have higher standards than the Federal Building Code right now?

1:41:08Nope. I just been doing chat GPT checks. I don't speak. There on the fire in the attic. There's not one.

1:41:16So clearly this is a huge hurdle to go, and probably why why it didn't get done before was you've got that local stop, then you've got the cost stop.

1:41:24Yeah, you typically see local technical amendments for things like I just mentioned barrier islands, uh freeboard, your C R S components, that power, many of which are legal under that statute either. Um I believe the The fire marshal has uh provided some other minor things, AEDs and spaces, that sort of thing, but nothing on a major construction level that we've seen. Um, DVBR does have their list of technical amendments across the state posted on the website. Um, you know, given the short nature beforehand, we

1:41:54haven't done a full, full review, but I've I spent uh a great amount of time over the past two. We canceling both of those and seeing where some technical differences are, what we have seen in the past, and what we might be able to try and figure out what techniques might be able to work to do something different with some local code.

1:42:13Okay. And knowing you guys are the experts in the field and uh you get the on-ground knowledge far as what just happened here and uh how it's been different for years. I think I would like to see, and we'll talk to the board, okay. I'll get you one second, I would like to see us go further to go see what things we can recommend to the state to make some changes because it's clearly not gonna be local. But let's go take a look at some things that may be better. And I think if we even have them engage. with the insurance industry, what what is it worth to the insurance industry if extra protections are put in place to where it

1:42:43could be a cost benefit as opposed to not? Uh I clearly think that when you got two million gallons worth of water that was wasted, ruined the structure as well. Uh there's got to be some benefit to the apartment complex who want to do it as well. But even for our own water resources, danger of our own people, there's a a lot of good that could come from this that could make a lot of sense. Umless it was at first. Yeah.

1:43:07Ms. Roger. Um how many of these fire, I mean a lightning strike for a fire happened in Pasco County. You remember any but prior to them? Uh I do not have that statistic on hand, question. But have we had them on I'm I'm sure we've probably had houses struck by lightning. We've had yes sir. Yeah. But nothing like a big building like we have now. No, sir. I can't see the state of Florida lessening their rules. on safety for our citizens of

1:43:37of Pasco or any any county in Florida to actually make it more affordable and give up safety reasons for the people. There's no way that the state of Florida would do that in our code. So but it's something we need to look at uh if there's something better out there we'll have to research because this is one in a million that that's happened and now we're faced with what do we do. So and I appreciate all the work y'all doing for it.

1:44:06Okay. And just one last note, Mr. Chairman, um the Floor Statute 633-208, we can't discriminate against a certain if we are going to look at making a change of some sort, we can't discriminate against a certain building type or construction or style. It has to be a wholesale change across the board. So we need to keep that in mind when we get direction moving forward. So we can't just state that we want wood frame apartment complexes that have to do this. They have to be block compartment complexes, wood frame compartment

1:44:36complexes, two story, four story, they all have to be included. So

1:44:42but

1:44:42the hospital

1:44:43hospitals could be exempted from that and would put extra controls on that.

1:44:47That's because that's not by the state uh the Agency of Healthcare Administration.

1:44:54The dressing of it.

1:44:58Right. Well if you could let's let's look in this a little bit deeper, see what you can find. Maybe there's maybe there's still an opportunity somewhere that we can to improve the safety. So