ENA-23-0005

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Each appearance carries the official title above. Where the county’s wording changed, the change is marked: added and removed. Steps with no marks were worded identically.

TranscriptWhat was said at each appearance is below it. Machine transcription, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 92% of 421 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.

1. 1Feb 2, 2023
   Planning CommissionPC8Public hearingNo disposition in the minutes

   An Ordinance By The … Code, And An Effective Date Date.

   Open this item →▶ Play from 18:05
   ▶ 18:051m1/2

   GirardiVice Chair

   18:05item nine above item PC eight. We're going to be presented with a design standards manual after we're asked to vote to remove the design criteria from the manual. I think that's tantamount to the Speaker of the House telling us we can't do that.

   Denise

   18:23Yes, Mr. Moody, thank you. Thank you so much. I was actually gonna ask that myself because but we don't have a way to put it on the agenda that way. So yes, thank you so much for So yes, we would like to also We were going to ask that you hear PC P nine before PC eight.

   18:43What that what is not on the agenda pack? Say it again.

   GirardiVice Chair

   18:47Is there a reason the manual is not in the commission's agenda packet by

   Denise

   18:51the community? Um no, there isn't a reason why it's not in the agenda packet. It was a presentation only item, so we didn't add it to the agenda packet. Um so we can send it to the Planning Commission. Um because you're not you're not voting on the design standards manual?

   19:10Un understand.

   GreyChair

   19:11Well let's just go ahead and I assume you're making a motion, so would we have a second to move the item?

   19:19We have a motion and a second. Any further discussion on the motion? If not, I'll signify by saying aye if you're in favor. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Like signed? Okay. Yeah, so switched.

   ▶ 3:38:0440m2/2

   Denise

   3:38:04late as we've been here before. All so All right, all thank you so much for your patience and your time. So this next item is the corresponding Land Development Code amendments that go together with the moving the design elements into a design standards manual. So this is um file number is ENA 230005. So why are we here? I think you guys already know this, but we can kind of talk about it again. The

   3:38:34Engineering Services Department is proposing that the BCC adopt a design standards manual by resolution. So the issue is that many of the design standards are currently housed in Chapter 900 of the Land Development Code. Several sections which include maps and graphs, exhibits and tables, are proposed to be moved from the LDC to the Design Standards Manual. So going through the history on this, this was first presented to the Ordnance Development Team on May 27, 2021, then again on November

   3:39:0510, 2021, then on December 16, 2021, and on January 13, 2022. It then w then moved on to the horizontal round table interest parties meeting. those meetings and these are this are these are not the only meetings that were captured. These are the ones that actually had the horizontal round table, the entire group together. There were subgroups that were also meeting. Um and those meetings were February 16, 2022, March 16, 2022, November 16, 2022, and December

   3:39:3521st, 2022. And throughout the entire 2022, beginning in February, this item when it was not being heard, so those other horizontal roundtable meetings that occurred every month, the item was listed as an as a Um old business items. So in other words, it was constantly on the agenda even though it wasn't spoken about.

   3:39:56Alright. So basically generally what you're going to see is all the L D C sections that re All the LDC sections that are being pulled from the LDC into the design standards manual. that refer to the design standards manual will have a link. So each document is going to be hyperlinked into the other document. Once we know where they're going to reside, there's going to be a hyperlink that will be a hyperlink in Municode and there will be a hyperlink in our website into Municode to to connect those two uh documents. So

   3:40:27um one of the things that we did and this is something that David was actually talking about now is that We added in Chapter 300 Procedures, Section 303, Common Procedures, we're amending that section to add the design standards manual. So the way it's being proposed today is you know this is the basically it talks about this is everything that's bold and underlined is new so this is a new portion. So the design standards manual, this is the what it's intended to do. The first

   3:40:57paragraph, the second paragraph, if any um uh design elements within a project cannot meet the design standards manual, you can apply for an alternative standards in accordance with 407.5. And then the last section, which is what David was alluding to, wanting to add language, is that that section would start with it is intended that changes to the design standards manual be made in a collaborative manner with input from all appropriate stakeholders, including final approval

   3:41:27by the plan at a at a public hearing by the Planning Commission. Um so that's one of the things that uh it it's a new section in the L a new subsection in the LDC.

   Connected City

   3:41:37Which would still be appealable to BOCC.

   Denise

   3:41:40Yes, that's that's correct. So the the next thing that we're adding is new things. This is not stuff coming out of the design out of the d out of the land development code, is we're adding section four o seven, which is uh relief procedures, we're adding that section to state that a design standards manual, um an element in the design standards manual can be um uh an alternative standard can be requested from that. And it includes the criteria for Requesting

   3:42:10a reviewing and approving an alternative standard to the design standards manual. It looks very similarly to the way that a design stand um an alternative standard to the land development code can be requested. Um it it's it's fairly similar in the way that it's laid out. Okay. All right. So moving on, this is I know you're probably used to yes. Absolutely.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:42:39Am I if I'm reading this correctly, the only difference is that we're adding that environmental requirements prohibit meeting the criteria.

   Denise

   3:42:51That is that is accurate.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:42:54Four, five, and six are the same for alternative standards to the land development.

   Denise

   3:43:00Um four, five, and six are the same as yes, as three, four, and five.

   Moody

   3:43:04I think two and three are different.

   3:43:09Number one is is similar to L D C deviation. What's different? What's what changed for two? I don't think that you can deviate from the L D C based on two.

   Denise

   3:43:19So all right, just to make everybody very confused, so for the um um criteria for the alternative standards The criteria are the following. I'm gonna read them into and you'll see how a lot of them match up. One. The alternative standard meets or exceeds the intent and purpose of this code the code requirement at issue. That's for alternative standard from the code. Two, no feasible engineering or construction solutions can be applied to satisfy the regulation. Three.

   3:43:50The alternative standard does not adversely affect compliance with other code provisions, development orders, or permits. four. The alternative standard is not in conflict with other mandatory substantive requirements of local, state, or federal law. Five, the alternative standard is consistent with the applicable provisions of the comprehensive plan. So those are the criteria for alternative standards from the

   Moody

   3:44:16L

   Denise

   3:44:16D C

   Moody

   3:44:17So I think I'm still correct. The difference is two and three. Two and three. Yes. Because two and three in my my recollection when I discussed this with Margaret is those DOT has those as deviation standards in their chapter. In their green book. Yeah. We didn't think it was appropriate to say that you can deviate those from those standards under DOT's criteria and not under our criteria. So So so we added those.

   3:44:44So that's why two and three are there. Okay.

   Denise

   3:44:49Okay, so following on I'm sure you guys love when I put these tables together for you. But just wanna go pretty much almost like section by section as to what exactly Um and and of course you have the strike through underline version and you have the clean version as well. So um as I stated um chapter 300 uh 303 comma procedures we do do we did do a d a general cleanup of three 303.1A development manual Um one of the things that we noticed when we were looking through the section is that It calls

   3:45:19out the assistant county administrator for the development manual. Usually we do county administrator or designee. So we just wanted to clarify that and make it consistent throughout. Additionally, we found in the development manual, we're now talking about development manual, not the design standards manual, that we didn't have a statement of how it could be appealed. So we added that statement. So the same Statement.

   3:45:44That's in sorry about that. It's in your paragraph two. That statement was added to the development manual.

   3:45:54Oh, I apologize. No, the last statement. Um that our appealable to the Board of County Commissioners pursuant to four oh seven point one A three. So it reads the development manual and all changes to development manual shall be considered written policies of general applicability that are appealable to the Board of County Commissioners pursuant to sec to section four oh seven point one point eight point three of this code within thirty days of their final of their initial publication on the county website.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:46:20That's what thirty days of their Initial publication.

   Denise

   3:46:24On the county website.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:46:25And when when they're what When do they take effect after being published on the county website?

   Moody

   3:46:35Likely but we'd we'd probably say they don't take effect until after the appeal period is

   Denise

   3:46:39run. After the appeal period is over is usually what we we would do.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:46:46Sure. So

   3:46:49How will I know that there was a change made to the design standards?

   3:46:56Am I literally supposed to go to the county website every day and check to see if there was a change so that I know that my appeal period is running?

   Denise

   3:47:04Are we now talking about the design standards manual or the development manual? Because the design standards manual it specifically states that it's they're going to be and and I believe Ms. Smith spoke about that this is gonna go to the to the horizontal round table. You're gonna talk to the horizontal round table to the interested parties about changes that are being proposed. So there's gonna be a public process for that.

   Moody

   3:47:26Okay.

   Connected City

   3:47:27For the design standards manual.

   Moody

   3:47:28For design standards okay, what's before you today is design standards manual. But you're making

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:47:33changes to the development manual.

   Moody

   3:47:34Okay, well, It depend it's hard for Denise to answer your question. Are you assuming that the sentence we just talked about gets added? 'Cause if the sentence we just talked about gets out of, you'll know it because it'll come to Planning Commission at a public hearing.

   Connected City

   3:47:49Well there's a lot of things.

   3:47:51Does that cover the development manual as well?

   Moody

   3:47:55Well uh we haven't talked about the development manual, but I I'm gonna ask Denise and Brad whether they're willing to bring those changes to the Planning Commission or not. That's a different issue, but Let's talk about the design standards manual first.

   3:48:10So if it's if it's at a notice public hearing, that's that's how they would know about a change of the code today.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:48:18I understand for me it's the other stakeholders that would have interest in those designs. So you take those to the horizontal meeting.

   Denise

   3:48:32We're gonna ask Adju on the list right now?

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:48:35Well how many more John Moody's are out there that have never been invited to

   Denise

   3:48:40the lab

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:48:40table meeting?

   Denise

   3:48:43I'm not sure if my colleagues know how many hundreds of people are invited to that horizontal round table meeting, but there is a huge email list and it continues to grow. Monthly based on folks a asking to be added.

   Connected City

   3:48:55But is public notice made to anybody that has an interest in attending that?

   Denise

   3:49:00It's on the county calendar. Yeah. It's it's a specific day every every month on the county calendar. It's like the second or third w Wednesday of the month.

   Moody

   3:49:14Okay.

   3:49:17I would my general understanding is that most of the Mr. Rudy may be an exception Most of the engineers that routinely do business in the county get an invite to that meeting. Whether they choose to attend or not is a different question. But but I believe that most subpoena to the meeting. Um but but I believe most of them are invited to the meeting.

   Denise

   3:49:39That's that's an accurate statement. Jesus. No, I think.

   Moody

   3:49:45I guess your invitation got lost in the mail. But but but y you'll be oh now. It sounds like they're gonna add you. Thank you.

   Denise

   3:49:51Yes, we are gonna add you.

   Moody

   3:49:53But in terms of but regardless for you personally, if it's if the language we added gets put in, it'll come to the Planning Commission.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:50:00I understand.

   Moody

   3:50:01Then you would know.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:50:02Trying to make sure that stakeholders in these criteria have their opportunity to participate in the process of the process. But that's why a hearing is going to happen.

   Moody

   3:50:15But the sentence that I proposed actually talks about both. It talks about collaborative manner with input from appropriate stakeholders. Including final approval by the Planning Commissioner public hearing. So it contemplates both things happening.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   3:50:29What is it? Trying to make sure.

   Moody

   3:50:31Now it doesn't contemplate that the des development manual would do that, but I will tell you the development manual doesn't have technical standards in it.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:50:39Sure it does. It tells you how far you can put a red maple from the pavement and how far that's it.

   Moody

   3:50:45Okay, well I guess I'll have to ask Denise and Brad whether they're willing to bring those to the Planning Commission too. I

   Saez

   3:50:54Uh you're not gonna like this, but short answer is no. Uh the entire intention of that is that those are those are more policy-level things that we do within the department. Uh and they are some specific criteria that are in the land development code that are supposed to be in that manual, and it actually specifically calls them out to be in that manual in the land development code, so that's why they're there. Um the entire intent of that is to not have to come back to this committee every time there is a small change. We have the meeting from the

   3:51:24horizontal round table, other stakeholder committees. Well John, let me let me let me explain this a little bit. I need you to understand this. Um This is an extremely time consuming and problematic process

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:51:36for you. I volunteer my time to come here and review all of these things. I do. How many pages is this agenda today? This is 400 plus pages that I get hit with on Friday night every time. We had one

   Connected City

   3:51:54This addendum's 148.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:51:55700 and something one time. I had one time where I got a walk-on agenda handed to me that was this thick. Two seconds before here.

   3:52:07So yeah, you don't have to tell me about time consuming and cumbersome. I get to spend my weekends reading this. And I don't get paid for this. But I'm happy to do it.

   Saez

   3:52:24So the the decisions are appealable to this body. So you still, if there is a concern with the development community community about something that we are doing. you would still be able to hear it. And have a final say.

   3:52:38But it it is it is just a a process nightmare to as fast as the markets change and as fast as the requests change and everything else is changing for us to process these this type of work more frequently to be able to accommodate that and go through these multiple hearings for what could be a tiny little item. is is excessive. We we can't we don't have the resources to do that.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:53:07Okay.

   3:53:10Say I agree, I'm just saying okay.

   Moody

   3:53:17Well, this is the same discussion we had on the last one. I mean you all can recommend something different than what staff does but you just add very similar language to the language we just talked about, to the development manual.

   GreyChair

   3:53:31Yeah, I mean my only concern is if ever just to be able to see it and have a chance to b have a bite at the apple. You know, that's all. Well, more importantly that the public has a chance.

   Denise

   3:53:45So I went over the changes in um in three oh three um adding the design standards manual. I went over the changes in four oh seven for the design standards manual. So um there's other sections, for example 402.2 with the z which is the zoning amendments. It talks about that variation it talks about variations from the land development code. I'm now adding variations from the land development code or from the dip design standards manual. Um chap um chapter nine hundred Um 901.1 transport transportation

   3:54:16corridor spacing, there are no changes, so it stays the same. 901.2 transportation corridor management. There are no changes, so that stays the same. 901.3 access management. Well, I'm sorry, I want to back up.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:54:28Sure. I'm not trying to be arguing.

   3:54:37Transportation, corridors, spacing, and corridor management, but yet in the design standard manual are the typical cross sections for the corridor. So does that mean they can be changed at will? Notwithstanding the

   Moody

   3:54:55proposed amendments.

   3:55:01those lists are embedded in the complaint. Because yes, the cross-sections were there was a typical cross-section adopted by resolution of the board, but then This body approved an amendment to the Com Plan Which put in the widths of all those roadways into the Complan. So no, that cannot be changed administratively. That's actually a Complan amendment. So then why are they the design standards made for? Because the comp plan just has a width. Okay, the comp plan just says 142

   3:55:32feet. The design, the typical cross section says this is what goes in that hundred and forty these are the facilities that go in that cross section.

   Denise

   3:55:42So I think perhaps I need to be clearer. Nothing in nine oh one point one is going into the design standards manual, staying in the code. Nothing

   3:55:52I understand that. Okay. I agree. I'm looking at the rent.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:55:54Sorry about that. It's a related issue. That's why I'm trying to get clear on it. Go ahead.

   Denise

   3:56:00Okay. Nine oh one point three access management. Um there's some cleanup other than moving some things into the design standards manual. It clarifies that the correct name of the F D O T manual is it it there's different names that it's called out so it clarifies th the correct name and then it also um clarifies that it's the latest edition throughout. And then it references correct F DOT chapters and indices throughout.

   3:56:29In that same section 901.3, tables and graphs are moved into the design standards manual. And it moves these sections in the desi into the design standards manual. 901.3.1, access control, 901.3. Isolated corner properties, 901.3.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:56:48We missed K.

   Denise

   3:56:49Oh okay, well I apologize, I will fix that for you.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:56:52K is throat distances, that's a design standard.

   Denise

   3:57:04Okay, throw distance nine to one point three point K.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:57:07I don't was it I'm not telling you to put it in or put it out, I'm asking, does it belong left in the L D C or does it belong in the DS proposed D S M?

   3:57:27That's what I was trying to figure out when I'm looking at this. This didn't get red lined out, but it seemed like that's a design standard.

   Moody

   3:57:36No, I sa I can see it.

   Denise

   3:57:39Okay, according to the document that I have It is staying in the Land Development Code. So throat distance did not change.

   Moody

   3:57:49I guess Mr. Moody's question is why isn't it? Okay.

   Denise

   3:57:52And I will defer to my colleagues from engineering services.

   Engineer

   3:58:01I think we I think we debated a couple of these things. Are they design standards or not? And that's just, you know, a certain length. I don't know. We're looking at uh I don't even know. Is that listed in the DOT standards? I can't remember offhand.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:58:13Well

   Engineer

   3:58:14the D O

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:58:14T does enforce I can tell you from getting DOT driveway permits, yes, they require forty feet to the first conflicting movement for throat distance.

   Engineer

   3:58:23Okay. Well I mean we went back and forth on some of these and if um That's something that would be better off than the uh design manual. That's something we could move over to the design manual. If that makes it more clear. You know, I'm saying to the to the designers that come in.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:58:43so you're asking us to evaluate the proposal,

   Engineer

   3:58:45so

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:58:45I'm asking the question.

   Engineer

   3:58:48Right, okay. I uh but I'm ch I'm talking to you as engineer to engineer because that's what we did with the horizontal round table. We went back and forth on these things with all those engineers that were on that committee. And so That's how I'm talking to you right now, but if but I understand I understand where you're coming from. You're on the panel. Um it's something we'll look at. We can add that. That's one of the things we've talked about continually. This manual will be something that We can work more flexibly with it with the uh horizontal roundtable.

   Moody

   3:59:18If it's still in the L D C you can't easily amend it. I mean I think that's part of what Mr. Moody's trying to say. He's kind of helping you here. Because if your whole argument is you want to be able to easily amend standards in the DSM, you won't be able to do that if it stays in the L D C So if that's one that you want throat distances is

   Engineer

   3:59:38yeah, we could consider moving.

   GirardiVice Chair

   3:59:40Let

   3:59:40me

   3:59:40ask another question before we go any further too. During the meeting that we had, I got told this has to be done by March seventh. What the heck happens on March 7th? It what happens if this happens April 7th or May 7th? Is the what hap what what's the consequence of March 7th? And so what I'm afraid of doing is rushing into these things and I'm seeing some of these things still need some thought, some work. And I'm being being but I but I was told this must be done by March seventh. So what happens

   4:00:10on March seventh?

   Engineer

   4:00:12Uh we picked a date. We picked a date and said we wanted to we we l we've been working on it for two over two years and and if you don't sometimes put a date on things, you you uh you just keep doing that. You keep sliding out to April. May, that type of thing. I like to see it done before I leave because I put a lot of effort into it and and it to me it's an important document. It's it's putting us in line with the other counties around here. I I mean so I think we talked about that as well in our meeting.

   Moody

   4:00:40Are there are there are there many other ones that were 'cause if it's in the DSM in theory it can be changed later fairly easily. Are there any others that you that were left in the L D C that If you're questioning whether they should have been moved to the DSM, besides that one.

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:00:57Well, the horizontal act, let's see, this would be Q, other design elements.

   4:01:06Even as design in the title.

   4:01:10And it talks about, you know, that the angle between connecting roads should be between ninety and sixty degrees. That sounds like a design criteria. An access that has a gate across it shall be designed so that minimum three car stack distance, seventy five feet. That sounds like a design criteria.

   4:01:31Access is designed to facilitate movement of vehicles off highway or prevent the queuing of vehicles on the trap. These are design criteria things. Um another let's see.

   4:01:48Well we get to talk about the substandard roadway, but that's being taken out and my question is that's a procedure, that's not a design standards.

   4:01:59Pavement widths, I'm confused there. We're leaving pavement widths in the manual. In fact there's another table that we all got an email about about right away widths and pavement widths, but shoulders are being moved to the manual, so I guess if I'm designing a road now and what's supposed to be easier with one manual, I gotta look in the L D C to figure out what the pavement width is and then I gotta go to the manual to get the shoulder width.

   Moody

   4:02:25Mm-hmm.

   4:02:28So Margaret, let me ask you a question. I I guess um the reason I'm a little lost is I guess I thought when Commissioner Oriano asked you to meet with Mr. Moody to I thought these we'll put the democracy comment aside because that's a different issue. But this kind of discussion about standards that should or shouldn't have been moved I thought that was the the purpose of the meeting with Mr.

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:02:52I got less than twenty-four hours to review the manual. I got an email one day with a manual and proposed LDC changes attached to it, and at nine a.m. the following morning we had a teams meeting. Well I guess my question is So I didn't get a fair shot. I think I

   Moody

   4:03:12mean

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:03:12those are things I just quickly

   Moody

   4:03:18can we have another meeting where we go to this kind of detail 'cause I I think the rest of the Planning Commission I don't want to speak with the rest of the Planning Commission. The whole issue about us l them losing their review authority is something the whole Planning Commission probably needs to weigh in on, right? But the kind of things that you're talking about now seems like they could be resolved with a one on one meeting with staff where you say Hey, why didn't wasn't this one move? Maybe this one should stay here. Maybe that means but we're being asked to vote on it now. Well that's

   4:03:48what I'm asking is

   Engineer

   4:03:50We're willing to delay. I mean I d uh you did have some very good comments for having such short time to review it, Mr. Moody. Uh

   Moody

   4:03:56well that's why I'm wondering if we can

   Engineer

   4:03:58delay it.

   Moody

   4:04:00So do you have another meeting with Mr. Moody to go over these kind of issues? I realize we're not gonna reach agreement on the whole democracy thing, okay. That's a different issue. But you should be able to reach agreement on this kind of stuff, like whether something should be in the D S M or

   Engineer

   4:04:14Yeah

   Moody

   4:04:16or the L D C so I'm wondering if we could continue this. Do you have another meeting with Mr. Moody to fix those kinds of things and then bring it back to the Planning Commission?

   Engineer

   4:04:28Well I'd like to make sure our guys in the HRT are looking at it too.

   Moody

   4:04:32Well I I mean I I agree you're not the sole judge, but you probably have the most expertise with possibly Mr. Girardi too. But you can't be together because That's a sunshine law problem. But and and

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:04:45there are things that this pool over here is affected by in this land development code that affects his business.

   Moody

   4:04:55I understand, but has Mr. Cole identified any

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:04:58that'sn't yet, but since the first shot and it never changes too.

   Engineer

   4:05:04Well Yeah, so Mr. Gerardi was on the H is on the HRT and he he has seen a lot. Um but but we actually did want to have a meeting with him and we then he mentioned that he wasn't gonna be here today so

   Moody

   4:05:15Okay. My recommendation was

   GreyChair

   4:05:16he knew something that we didn't know. Probably so maybe What this how long this would last. Okay. He's

   Moody

   4:05:21he's been

   Engineer

   4:05:21looking

   Moody

   4:05:21through

   4:05:24I'm gonna throw this out. You continue it. You have one more meeting with Mr. Moody. You then have a separate meeting with Mr. Gerardi where you alert him to what you changed But you ch the changes that have occurred since he last saw this at Horizontal Round Table and he wouldn't know about anything to change since Horizontal Round Table. See if he has any additional comments, then bring it back to the Planning Commission after you have those two meetings. I'm not trying to if you if any other Planning Commission members wanna have one on one meetings, I'm not saying you shouldn't.

   4:05:55You This is your chance to ask for it now, but I'm just some of the details we're talking about I'm not sure. a public discussion of them is gonna be that helpful. I I agree.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   4:06:07I totally agree with that.

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:06:08They're either design standards or they're not.

   Moody

   4:06:11And I think you are making some very good comments. My point is that I don't know that the rest of the Planning Commission wants to go standard by standard.

   Connected City

   4:06:20We we shouldn't do committee work in a board meeting.

   Moody

   4:06:22Right, yeah. Wants to go standard by standard and say this one should be in DSM, this one should be in code. So that's why I'm suggesting maybe we continue and you have that

   4:06:36Part of my job is to represent the entire planning commission. I suspect that some of the things that we're going to do is

   Connected City

   4:06:44how much time would be acceptable for our for everyone.

   4:06:52Next meeting or I

   Moody

   4:06:54guess the question would be how long I mean there's obviously there's no public That interested in this. So

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:06:59Well let me ask the staff, because I can tell you that you come back and have a meeting with me I know two was ignored. There hasn't been anything Regarding stormwater, I mean I'm gonna have a lot of questions about that. There all these changes were things that affect roadways and roadway designs and DOT standards. And for those of you who don't know it, the name of my company is two G H Solutions and

   4:07:30if you're a stormwater engineer you know that there's significance to the name. So

   Engineer

   4:07:36And we would definitely have but the stormwater team there. Um As I said, they are working on their standards. Um they wanted to get some of them moved over and and be able to work with them on an ongoing uh go depend in an ongoing process. Uh but I d I definitely would have to have them with us to work through that. I don't know if you know Joseph O'Mowen. Any of the public works general? So we'll we'll uh we'll bring them with us. How much time would you need to

   4:08:06really get a good look at the uh

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:08:08I think that depends on what they want to change. I mean I I got a few questions here. I've marked with folks I don't have hundred of these that need that I said our design criteria. And

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   4:08:17I

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:08:18brought them to point

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   4:08:19them out as examples.

   Moody

   4:08:21Right, but I don't want this to go to the board with We should fix it before it goes to the board. And if there's ten of them, there's ten of them, or if there's fifteen of them, there's fifteen of them. They regardless they need to be identified and fixed. I'll tell you that

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:08:35I would feel a lot better about this if this were a comprehensive design standards manual. One of the questions I'm gonna ask. So stormwater. What about I'm sorry, what section is parking standards? There's lots of design criteria there. I asked about landscaping. There's lots of design criteria there. Why aren't all these things being moved into this manual?

   4:09:04Good questions?

   Connected City

   4:09:05So the question is is how much longer do you should we continue it for so you have a chance to address this?

   Moody

   4:09:11Well, it depends on the scope of what we probably need to let Brad speak. But if it's simply to s talk about what staff has already done and whether there's a five or ten ones that should have been in the manual that are in the code or that probably that that's a one continuance meeting. If it's What about all these other things in the code that didn't go in the manual at all? That's more than a one-meeting continuance, but let's let Brad speak to the

   Saez

   4:09:38Yeah, uh generally just to answer that question real quickly, um at at the most basic level there are uh different designees by the county administrator for those different sections of codes that are actually operated by different people through different processes, so that's why they're split out basically in the way that they're done. Um Margaret is the designee for the pieces that are in the design manual And uh selection of other people or designees for the center

   Moody

   4:10:06in

   Saez

   4:10:06the other part.

   Moody

   4:10:11But some of what you're talking about are affect aesthetic standards and I don't know that the board's gonna want aesthetics to not have a role in changes to aesthetic standards. In fact I think they're very interested in aesthetic standards and they're not gonna want that delegated to staff in the Planning Commission.

   4:10:31So That would be my answer why parking and landscaping and those types of standards are not being moved to the manual.

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:10:39Yeah, but there are things that are not aesthetics in those. You're talking about landscaping and upper and that kind of thing. Okay. We're about to be asked to reduce the width. We haven't even gotten to this. We're still s hung up on design standards. There's other things going on in this ordinance, one of which is going to be changes to right-of-way widths and streets, which are things that Affect how we administer the comprehensive plan. And I'm going to have lots of questions about

   4:11:09when we get to that, about why the street widths are being changed. But I find it quite interesting that I'm going to reduce the width of a residential street in this ordinance. But at the same time, a parking lot's required to have. drive aisles wider than what we're going to require developers to do residential streets. So these things are so parking is something And it's related. So I think I won't

   4:11:39go in and tell a private guy, a guy that builds a shopping center. Well, you have to build a 24-foot road, and you have to build a cross-axis that has a structural number of 2.96. But if you want to come in here and build 40-foot-wide lots, you can build a 50, whatever, 22-foot-wide street now, and you can do it to a structural number of that's less than what we require for a cross-axis. This is the market.

   GreyChair

   4:12:02Well, uh if we uh plan to meet again on this issue w the next time we meet here in Dade City, would that be enough time? I would think we would need at least thirty days

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   4:12:15or a month, whatever, two the

   Connected City

   4:12:17two meetings a year. The next next meeting dates that

   Moody

   4:12:20work for everybody?

   Engineer

   4:12:22W I'm sorry, I didn't hear

   Moody

   4:12:23about continuing to the next meeting in Dade City, which is what date?

   Engineer

   4:12:26March. March

   Christopher Poole

   4:12:27second.

   Engineer

   4:12:29That might be enough time to talk about some of these things, but uh if we're gonna make major changes, I don't think a month is enough.

   Chris Williams

   4:12:36You need more than a month?

   Engineer

   4:12:37I would say if we're gonna change the manual drastically that's gonna take time. Uh we're thinking of this as a more of a roadway standard manual. We're we're now including site development, landscaping, all kinds of other stuff. So we have to even come to a common ground on what we think this manual should have.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   4:12:56Margaret, I'm sorry because what

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:12:58I just talked about. Isn't in the manual, this is a table. This change that we're being asked to evaluate today contains more than just the design manual. There's also substantive changes to how much right-of-way we require of developers for streets for subdivisions and widths for pavement. And I'm a very and there's been no explanation which. got that far yet and I'm sorry.

   Engineer

   4:13:25Oh okay so that's different than ours. That's not exactly I am totally losing into the manual. Boom we're going to different areas. I was

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:13:32confused as to why that's not going in the manual at the same time we're gonna be asked to change streets right street widths and right-of-way widths and I questioned why isn't that in the

   Engineer

   4:13:41manual? It's more potent comprehensive

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:13:47Why I'm anxious to hear why? Why are the reasons?

   Denise

   4:13:51Do you would you like to hear why now or do you want to continue it and we could talk about it 'cause I I I do have someone to talk about that. That section.

   GreyChair

   4:13:59Well how much time do you think we're gonna need to continue? You wanna we're gonna need more than two uh two m two uh two meeting cycle?

   Denise

   4:14:11So as as as Margaret Smith was talking about, if we're just gonna focus on the things that we're focusing on now, which are nine hundred and um the stormwater the that part of the stormwater section. I think that a month is adequate. Um And

   Connected City

   4:14:28then if it's not you you can bring it back to us and say we propose another continuance um because we haven't Yeah. So I'd I'd I'd move that we continue it for a month.

   Denise

   4:14:39Yeah, we're we're not I just want to be clear that we're not talking about landscaping, we're not talking about buffering, we're not talking about We're

   Connected City

   4:14:45not talking

   Denise

   4:14:46about

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   4:14:46anything, we're moving to continue. So that I I contains all of the things that we've got to do.

   Moody

   4:14:56Those other things you're talking about can't be moved to the manual without you seeing them anyway, because they'd be being pulled out of the code. So

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:15:05and I'm not saying they can't be or shouldn't be. All I'm asking is if the gold is custom I'm being sold this manual that this is customer service and this is easy. But yet to get I'm an engineer, I have to live with this. Whatever we practice, I gotta live with. Okay? So when I wanna go When I need to know the shoulder width, I'll go to the design standard manual. When I need to know the pavement width on the subdivision street, I'll go to the uh to the land

   4:15:35development code. When I need to know where I can plant the maple tree, then I'm gonna have to go to the development. I'm trying to figure out how this is easier in my life. Just as a I

   Connected City

   4:15:45As a point of order. As a point of order, we had a motion And a second that puts us in discussion at the moment. So any further

   GreyChair

   4:15:55discussion? Anyone else on the board? If not,

   Chris Williams

   4:15:57wait. I want to know what we're voting on. To continue for a month. To continue.

   Denise

   4:16:04To continue this, that is section 901, which is transportation, and 902, which is stormwater.

   Chris Williams

   4:16:10Okay. And what's the period of time?

   Denise

   4:16:13That is going to be to the March 2nd Planning Commission meeting or LPA meeting at one thirty here in Dade City.

   Connected City

   4:16:20And if at that time then they feel like there's still items that need to be addressed, we can always continue it again.

   Chris Williams

   4:16:25Please let me finish. If Margaret is retiring in the near future, will she be here at that meeting or will she already have an uh

   Denise

   4:16:33I believe Margaret retires at the end of March if I'm not mistaken. Um so she'll still be here.

   Chris Williams

   4:16:38You wouldn't want to start this whole conversation with the new person. That's what I'm trying to get to on that one. Or maybe we would. Yeah. No, you don't want to open that door, you know, honestly. That doesn't work that well.

   GreyChair

   4:16:50Okay, so we have a motion and a second, no further discussion. All in favor, signifying by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed like sign?

   Moody

   4:16:59Just by way of clarification, the meetings that will occur between the next thirty days are with Mr. Moody and Mr. Jorrity. None of the other Planning Commission members need one-on-one meetings. Right. I'm just asking because I don't want to you all to say I'll defer

   Connected City

   4:17:13to Mr. Moody. Okay, sorry.

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:17:17And Mr. Jordy.

   4:17:21And I'm sorry for getting contentious right out of the box today. But when I got my Planning Commission agenda on Friday evening,

   4:17:32Yeah.

   4:17:35To where the design standard manual presentation was just to see if any of the things that we had talked about during our teams meeting got into the manual. And I was shocked to find that the manual wasn't even in our agenda packet to take a look at. I was personally insulted by that. And I hope that you'll put whatever manual. Never form. we agree on in the in the material that we get to review.

   Denise

   4:18:07We'll do.

   GreyChair

   4:18:10Okay. Anything else? Denise? How we finished?

2. 2Feb 21, 2023
   Board of County CommissionersP53Public hearingContinued

   Approved minutes

   Approved to continue the item to the March 21, 2023 Board of County Commissioner’s meeting at 1:30 p.m. in New Port Richey.

   Open this item →▶ Play from 7:59
   ▶ 7:591m

   MarianoChair

   7:59I'll call back to the order the Pasco County Commissioner's meeting of February 21, 2023. Please silence all electronic devices and mute your phones. We'll proceed with public hearing with ordinance P fifty three. The clerk will announce when it was noticed.

   Starkey

   8:16Uh yes sir. It was published uh published in the Tampa Bay Times on January twenty second, twenty twenty three.

   MarianoChair

   8:23Okay. Denise.

   Denise

   8:24Mr. Chairman Commissioner Denise Hernandez Planning and Development. Item P53 is EN ENA 23005. This was a proposed public hearing for first reading on this ordinance. It was actually advertised as a continuance. So the request is to continue the item to the 321-2023 Board of County Commissioners.

   MarianoChair

   8:50So I have may have a motion to continue P fifty three. So move. Second. No says call the vote.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   9:00Just you can just call it a continuance. You just call it straight. Okay. All right.

3. 3Mar 2, 2023
   Planning CommissionPC15Public hearingNo disposition in the minutes

   An Ordinance By The … Code, And An Effective Date Date.

   Open this item →▶ Play from 4:39:51
   ▶ 4:39:5128m

   Moody

   4:39:51This needs to come as a separate issue from the roadway width issue, the subdivision roadway width. In this ordinance, something that's staying resident in the land development code are the pavement widths and right-of-way widths for subdivision streets. We used to have five types of streets and now it's going to be three types of streets, and these streets are getting narrower. And I'm sure that the horizontal roundtable loves the idea of having the narrower streets.

   4:40:21That's how much pavement I don't have to pay for when I go build the subdivision. And those commissioners are screaming about having not enough room in the driveway to park my vehicle. So I'm sure that the idea of a narrower street probably enthralls them. But as someone who's lived in subdivisions, and here's a place where you might have some unintended consequences, yep, I made the commissioner happier and I gave him a foot extra room in the driveway by taking it out of the street. And then,

   4:40:52do you ever have a lawn done? And the guy pulls up in his pickup truck in the lawn trailer. Is he pulling your driveway? No, he parks in the street. And now I got a ten foot wide lane instead of a twelve foot wide lane. And how am I getting that fire truck through? How am I getting that ambulance through? How's the other lawn guy getting past your lawn guy? Well they're rubbing fenders. on the street. I'd like to have that come back to the Planning Commission as a separate change to the land development code

   4:41:22that can be adequately vetted and not mixed in with this.

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:41:27Okay, so Mr. Mini, I raised a very similar concern to what you just raised when I met with staff yesterday. Because our board has raised concerns about not having adequate on-street parking in subdivisions. And we actually had one commissioner try to make a motion that all subdivisions in the county should have we should just allow on street parking across the entire county. And then our emergency services people said that is we have some older subdivisions where I we couldn't get our emergency

   4:41:57vehicles through on the road. if you allow that. And they so it got stopped. But

   4:42:06You know, I think our board does want a permanent solution or a go on a going forward basis to how we're dealing with this issue of on-street parking. And when I looked at the same amendments you looked at where they were narrowing the right-of-way, I asked some of the similar questions that you asked, which is how are you addressing the board's concern about on-street parking? Because it seems to me you're just narrowing the right-of-way. And yes you have some cross sections that still allow for on street parking, but then you're eliminating green space, which I don't know if the board's okay with or not. And you're not

   4:42:36even making sure that they can have on street parking, which I don't know if you address the board's concern on that issue. And so I raised very very similar concerns to you and staff said they would have some internal conversations about it and and potentially make some revisions, go to Horizon Round Table and discuss it. So And that was another reason why this is getting continued.

   Moody

   4:42:58And I appreciate that that they'll go have that process because the explanation I've been given to date is this is a promise that the previous county administrator made to the HRT. Well, that's all fine and dandy except he ain't here and then there's been a little change in philosophy since his his departure as to widths of lots and

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:43:18Well and my biggest concern with is I'm not even sure it's consistent with what the Board of County Commissioners has directed the planning department to do. So that staff has agreed to have some internal conversations, rediscuss that issue with Horsana Roundtable, and try to address the concerns better. It that may or may not be able to happen over the next two months. If it can, I think staff would like to bring it as one packet. If it if it it's still an issue, I agree with you it

   4:43:49should be pulled out and dealt with separately. But I think staff is at least going to make an attempt to fix Make the amendment consistent with what I think current board intent is. Um And we can m let Mr. Pito speak to it, but I believe he's been directed to do something as it relates to on street parking and tell me if I'm wrong, Mr. Pitos. I mean I don't think we can just ignore the issue of on street parking.

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   4:44:25Good evening. Um the the matter was brought uh to the Planning and Development Department by the Board of County Commissioners to take a look at it. Uh but the matter was hit hit pause basically. I was I was instructed by I think I don't recall exactly when, but on the discussion of on-street parking, I was told to pause on that recently. And the and that may have been by the previous county administrator. So I'd have to follow up on what the n what

   4:44:55the next step is or what the next direction is.

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:44:59And that may be the case Terry that you hold a bit hit pause, but it doesn't solve there was still a concern raised by the board that we haven't solved yet. Correct. It's a question. And the concern I raised was was with the amendment I saw actually potentially made the issue worse.

   4:45:17cons considering what the board's concern was. So

   4:45:24There's there's one thing to hit pause and do nothing. It's another to actually implement an amendment that may actually make the problem worse than it is today. So that was the concern I raised and that I think Will is gonna discuss with you and hopefully bring back to the Horizontal Roundtable to have a more in depth discussion which is of the very issue that Mr. Moody raised and which I'm talking about. Because I don't think it's it's I agree with Mr. Moody. It's easy to say let's just narrow all the right-of-way. But

   4:45:55you can't do that without having some discussion about what you're doing to on street parking. And emergency vehicle

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   4:46:03access. Right. We we right now the codes that we have in place um are mainly talking about preserving that emergency accessibility. And as a result, um if you don't have the necessary right-of-way width, or excuse me, the necessary street width, um We have uh in the various new developments with MPUDs a requirement that parking be restricted accordingly by the C D

   4:46:33Ds or the HOAs. So what ends up happening is as the roads get built, the um with the with the lane width that are in in the code, um the no parking signs go up and that prevents

   Moody

   4:46:47And I hear it and I see it and I see them in the conditions that we we get here and I don't mean to get into a giant debate about all of this. But at the end of the day we all know what it's like to live in a subdivision. And in fact I used to live in Jamie's subdivision years ago Listen, you have guests over, you have a party. You have a wedding reception, whatever the whatever the thing may be, there's an event and there's people parking and Well, when

   4:47:17you got a twenty foot setback to the house, even though you've got two car driveway, well you'll get two cars in there, but your other six guests they're parking on the street. At least I had the luxury of living on a cul-de-sac so we could send them up around the cul-de-sac, but not everybody does. So I mean that happens and and if you live in a neighborhood where everybody's being towed away constantly, I don't think that creates a great uh quality of life.

   GreyChair

   4:47:43Well that's actually how the issue is talking about quality of life issues. I mean it seems like they should be widening the roads, not

   Moody

   4:47:48uh

   GreyChair

   4:47:49narrowing the

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:47:49roads. Well that's actually that's actually the issue how the issue got to the board is exactly what you said, Mr. Moody, was there was some people that wanted to have some guests over for a party. They were forced to get this temporary parking permit to do so, and a commissioner said, Why are they having to do this? We should just allow everyone Everybody to park on the street. And that's when this whole discussion starts well, it's when it really started to manifest itself. And The commissioner's no longer on the board, but even up until the time he was leaving he was

   4:48:19pushing that we should just allow all on street parking. But it it's the width of the road that caused the that stopped that from happening. And so you raise a very legitimate point that maybe we should need to rethink whether we should be narrowing these roads if that's going to impact the ability to have on street parking.

   Moody

   4:48:39this to Margaret. I thought this was dangerous to mix the design standards manual and that particular issue into one ordinance because you may end up with the baby thrown out with the bathwater over it. I think the roadway issue is probably a much bigger issue than the design standards manual.

   Saez

   4:48:59So I agree. One quick thing, if I could add that really quick. The way the code exists today, we have a solution to that issue. You know, it doesn't necessarily work retroactively with things that are already out there. But our code does differentiate that if there's going to be on-street parking in the neighborhood, then those right-of-way widths are widened and the pavement widths are widened. to accommodate it. It's there. That's in our code. So uh moving forward we can if if the board wants to have on-street parking or wider payment for that they can deviate from

   4:49:29this more general standard.

   Moody

   4:49:32That'll be a policy decision that they have to take up and then of course they'll have to respond to their electorate who doesn't like having to go get if they live in the neighborhood where the C D D says you can't park on the street and they gotta go get a permit, I guess they'll have to answer to those people but

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:49:51So i but it's a bigger discussion than just on street parking, 'cause based on the conversation I had with Wilpoon yesterday, some of that also affects the the green space that's available next next to the roadway and that's a policy decision too

   Saez

   4:50:05about we essentially lose street trees and utilities management.

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:50:09So sometimes you're sacrificing green space for on street parking, but that doesn't also depend

   4:50:17You know,

   Moody

   4:50:17I said

   4:50:19in one of the cases today, I think it was the one on Clinton Avenue, the townhomes on Clinton, there was a condition. that basically said You didn't need to provide driveway flares, and what they were attempting to do was to create some more room for them to plant some trees. And so now we're down here trying, we've got things so compact that we're literally worried about nine square feet. The driveway flares in this county are three

   4:50:50feet by three feet. So on both sides of the driveway, that's nine square feet. We're now trying to scrimp for nine square feet to add a tree. Brad, how much, how many square feet? What's the minimum square footage we require in a parking lot island to plant? It's bigger

   Saez

   4:51:06than nine square feet. We would love a ten by ten area for planting a big shade tree, but so Yeah three by three. Yeah, that's actually got the little triangle.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   4:51:14It's not much bigger than the podium.

   Saez

   4:51:16That that

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   4:51:17was uh

   Saez

   4:51:17that was a an effort to deal with the issues of the front loaded town hall. Minimum distances

   Moody

   4:51:23there. Yeah, and like I said, and I'm not picking on that, I'm just the point being that we've got things so jammed and crammed in at this point, and I think that's why there's some pushback for people that are wanted to see a little more elbow room in some of these subdivisions. Because they do become quality of life issues and now we're getting down to the Now we're getting down almost to the ridiculousness That here we are a scrounge you find me nine square feet so I can add a tree.

   GreyChair

   4:51:50Yeah, and we're get we're we're You know, the developers obviously they're s they're squeezing the county to try to get as much as they can out of the land, but that's not our responsibility. I in my mind, our responsibility is to get the best we can for our community.

   Moody

   4:52:08And I appreciate that. And the one thing that I hope staff recognizes is that this guy, this guy, this guy, and that guy, and I don't know what Peter does, so I apologize. But we all make our living from this growth. And we aren't working for the government here. We work for the private sector. Okay? We make our living from the very people we're here regulating.

   GreyChair

   4:52:31Yeah. So we don't We're we're never a at least in my opinion, we're never in favor of just growth. We want to see good growth.

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:52:44Well and you all for the most part I think you all live in the county. So I mean. So for example, Chuck and I live in a neighborhood that has tons of on street parking and it actually works fairly well, I say. Yeah. So, you know

   4:53:00But but and we know lots of green space between our parking and our I mean, so Why are we adopting land of Oma codes that have no green space to to accommodate the on-street parking and apparently don't require on street parking at all?

   Chris Williams

   4:53:15Well, that's a simple answer there.

   4:53:26That's what it that's what it comes down to, financial financial situations where how much can I make off this particular product? You know, I came from a community before I moved here and retired. That's what I do, in case you wanted to know.

   GreyChair

   4:53:42You're the only one that's as smarter

   Chris Williams

   4:53:44anymore. We're all working. I had no choice, but I came from a community where they did uh I can't think of it, but maybe they they took the the uh funding from the Cancer Cigarette Fund and they gave it to Very wealthy landowners who raised horses. And these people were not poor. They gave them a ton of money. And the intent was to try to keep green space. But on a few of them, they sold, after they got the money and waited a period of

   4:54:14time, they sold that property off and made another ton of money. And then when I go back, I go back in May to see my son, others up there, I will see where the horse. farm used to be and it used to be a famous forest farm called Hamburg, I believe it was the name of it. It's no longer there. It's

   4:54:31commercial business. It's hotels, it's restaurants, it's a you know, it's all kinds of things. So going back to your question there, i I think the Land Co development needs to look out for the individual citizen. And I think that's one of the reasons why I think all of us are here for the the four of you folks that still work. Except for my school partner back here and he does I think you look at you try to look out for the you try to look out for the folks there, but it's hard, you know. I

   4:55:02had a hard time today as you figure out with that one particular project. You know, I wouldn't like to see them put into homes. as opposed to it but also you have the way in fact that you know density of population is important. Parking s on streets is important, but getting that fire truck through that street is important. It's probably more important than anything else. Because in my community where I live at, it comes in almost daily now those fire trucks because we have three types of communities in there. Most of them are a lot older than I am, if you

   4:55:32can believe that or not. And some of the Folks are a little younger than I am. So the fire department's there for those older folks. And you need to have those rules there on wide streets that can get the fire truck through. If you get them too narrow, and I lived in communities when I lived in one city, Kansas, and I won't say the thing in the cities, but the streets were very narrow because they were very old. When they used to have horses and buggies go down those streets. But the newer communities have wider street. So this is what you're the

   4:56:02land development code is an important tool and it has to be something that's constructed in a very wise manner. And we're fortunate fortunate they got three folks on here that know this code, and I and in particular Mr. Moody and the attorneys are very reasonable people. I hate to see the fact that you would start to narrow streets down. That's a very, very small, uh narrow one to bring on. But I go to Costco a lot and their parking spaces that are much much wider than

   4:56:32the norm. They took it onto themselves to do that.

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:56:36Well, so but I want to be clear, there probably is a limit to that because if you make the local sub industry too wide, it becomes a runway and then you have speedy. So I mean it's true. So there there is a balance. There's got to be a balance there that meets everybody's needs. Absolutely. I'm just not sure that this the change that Mr. Moody references have gone through that level Of analysis

   Moody

   4:56:58and all that. The whole point was that is a an important discussion to be had. And we're actually not even making it till this moment. We spent all of this time hung up on the design standards manual at the last meeting and then at the outset of this discussion, when there is a bigger fish in here in which we need to look. Yeah. And so I'm asking staff to consider bringing that Bring

   4:57:28that back separately. So that that can be properly vetted and not get tied up in The design state.

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:57:40It's four lines on a chart. Because some of what they're doing where they're collapsing road types into different into smaller number of road types isn't affecting the issue you're talking about. No, I think the issue you're talking about if there's four lines in a chart where they reduce the widths of some of the local subdivision streets, and I've talked to Denise, that that may need to be pulled out. If it we can't get a good resolution of it. Yeah, I I basically I agree with you. But I think they are gonna attempt to get a resolution of it 'cause there probably is a good resolution that accommodates

   4:58:10all the addressed issues we just talked about. I just don't know if they'll get it done in the next two months. If they can't I think they are prepared I think they're prepared to pull it out.

   Moody

   4:58:19to make sure we have a good solution whenever we implement it.

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:58:25Because I don't want to make the problem worse. Exactly.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   4:58:32Yeah, I think that may I mean to me that makes a good point to the board that the board n I mean and and they ultimately will be the one that makes the the final decision on you know, what what happens and how is this design standards manual adopted, approved, the modifications and and what is that skinny process. I I still don't fully understand and grasp, you know, I know there was a kind of a concession to go with a the the public hearing here and the resolution of the board, but I I mean What how much more work is it to go to public hearing here, public hearing of the board? Is

   4:59:02that a procedural issue or is that

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:59:05I I guess I'll ask Denise that question. I mean, do you think the skinnier process is less work for staff? staff.

   Denise

   4:59:11But it well

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:59:12I'm asking, I don't know.

   Denise

   4:59:14Can you ask the question again? I'm sorry, David.

   GirardiVice Chair

   4:59:17The skinnier process that we came up with for the design standards manual where you have one public hearing in front of Planning Commission and the Board adopts it by resolution, how much less work is that for you than three public hearing?

   Denise

   4:59:32So I would say that it's quite a bit less work than um three public hearing. Um particularly no the notice if it remains the same as it is today. I know we're moving towards something else. Um

   4:59:50And just bringing it to the this would be the the only public hearing at Planning Commission, that's I think I think it's it's simpler. It cut it cuts out some some work, certainly.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   5:00:02Well, it's left it cuts out work from three public hearing, so what if they were both public hearing and the board wasn't a resolution, it was a public hearing?

   5:00:12Board

   GirardiVice Chair

   5:00:12is the final hearing

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   5:00:13after a resolution.

   GirardiVice Chair

   5:00:15You could do the final board hearing at a public hearing. Бдэм. 'Cause just a matter of which part of the agenda it appears on and then whether they have to do a notice for it. The the key thing about a public hearing is that they've got to notice it, which Denise is right, we may be moving to website notice in the near future, which might make that easier, but In the absence of that, they have to put an ad in the paper whenever they do a public hearing.

   Moody

   5:00:41So I I hear it and I understand wanting to have easier work. But the one thing I've been screaming about since I got back here in Gilleth is public notice, public notice, public notice, public notice. I've been

   GirardiVice Chair

   5:00:52pretty consistent about that. That being said, LDC changes, the only notice they get is an ad in the paper, which with all due respect very people read. Yeah, I agree with that to get one. So so it's not like that many people are showing up at the public hearing because of the ad we put in the paper. Really in reality what happens on Land Development Code Amendments is that there's a problem with them. They know about it because it went through horizontal round table, because it went through Planning Commission and they've been following that amendment and they have a concern with it. And so then they

   5:01:22show up at the board and saying, I don't like what horizontal round table did. I don't like what Planning Commission did. I still have concerns. They're not n they're not finding out about it because there was a notice in the paper.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   5:01:34In which case it wouldn't matter if it was a resolution or a public comment.

   GirardiVice Chair

   5:01:40I still have concerns with this board and and probably the board would pull it from consent and discuss it.

   5:01:47The only issue is whether you want to have a public hearing in front of the board where somebody could In theory, you know You could get thirty people to show up and notice it and everything else.

   Ebro Stevens

   5:02:00But

   GirardiVice Chair

   5:02:03I guess my my point is if you're gonna do that you might as well just keep it in the land at all 'cause then they're just having to, you know, do what they're doing now and I will be honest with you, probably ninety percent of the land of well land development code amendments we do, nobody shows up to speak to them.

   5:02:23This is true.

   GreyChair

   5:02:24Pretty good.

   GirardiVice Chair

   5:02:27So you are, and Denise is in theory just doing process for the sake of process. She's putting an ad in the paper that nobody's reading.

   Saez

   5:02:36And there's a there's another work effort there that uh you know, you're you're talking about having all of your different experts available for that many hearings that they are then not working on other things. So there's kind of a change in the work effort that's not directly related to producing that. But it's taking people away from other work that they could be doing as well. So I would like that to be thought about a little bit in in that discussion because it it is, you know, a lot of we've got, you know, senior uh engineering staff here for

   5:03:06consult um three times all day long or you know, however long it is. Um that's that's a lot of work time lost. Uh that's You know, again, like David said, there may be nothing to talk about. They may just be sitting here.

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   5:03:20J just the underline Brad's point, uh it's production work. The the movement of cases and review et cetera that they would normally look at for technical reviews on various projects. That's the kind of work that that's hard to do.

   Moody

   5:03:39I'll agree with you but I'm not gonna give you any sympathy because there's no production going on at my company right now.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   5:03:47They're glad for that part. Actually can we have some extra meetings maybe?

   GirardiVice Chair

   5:03:58Well Okay. No, you don't want to do that. I if you know, think about the skinny process. I guess that's what staff's gonna recommend when this comes back. Even if they fix some of the issues you talked about with design savings manual, that's the process they came up with.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   5:04:15Yeah.

   GirardiVice Chair

   5:04:16If you both could think of a better way to do it.

   5:04:20That's open for discussion. Maybe the board doesn't like it either. But Again, they're trying to strike a balance between agility and democracy.

   5:04:31And I done put it. I don't know if they got the right balance, but they try. So They heard you loud and clear the Planning Commission didn't want that you didn't want this bypassing the Planning Commission without your input. And that's where they tried to give you some input.

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   5:04:46We appreciate that. Yes. What date did we want the continuance to?

   Denise

   5:04:51May fourth, twenty twenty three, one thirty, date city.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   5:04:55I move to continue the item to May 4th. As much as I want to talk about it for another hour, I'll second.

   5:05:03Go ahead, Margaret. Sorry.

   GirardiVice Chair

   5:05:05What what did you say Margaret?

   Kathy Shram

   5:05:07I'm just wondering now if we want if that if May is enough time. Yeah.

   GreyChair

   5:05:14Well speak now or forever. July fourth.

   Denise

   5:05:22The following option would be June s um June eighth at one thirty in Date City. Following that would be July sixth, one thirty in Date City.

   GirardiVice Chair

   5:05:35I

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   5:05:35got a preference.

   GirardiVice Chair

   5:05:37July sixth.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   5:05:38I I mean we can always continue it again. I mean

   GirardiVice Chair

   5:05:41July sixth. Either way, Denise is gonna have to re out regardless. So it doesn't matter what date you pick, it just what how long do you think it's gonna take the staff to

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   5:05:48And Margaret honestly I and I know you've probably heard this already. I mean I well eight, ten years ago there was you know some there was a whole you know committee or a whole group of people that were sat in a room every month just like the horizontal round table does and was were looking at changes to the stormwater ordinance. I mean it depends on on how much you're trying to bite off and what you're trying to change or what we're trying to implement on how long it's gonna take. I mean I think w last time the stormwater section was looked at, I think that was discussed for a year and a half and nothing ended up happening. The

   5:06:18person that was working on it left. um left the county. So

   Moody

   5:06:23And I've been on two different land development re code rewrite committees over the years. And I can tell you the only thing that got rewritten in those codes for the most part was the order in which they appear in the code. Yeah, it's hard.

   GreyChair

   5:06:40Okay, so we have a motion. We have a second. Further discussion? All in favor? That's no that's the June July 6th. What was the date,

   GirardiVice Chair

   5:06:49Denise?

   Denise

   5:06:50It was the date is June 8th, 130, Date 6th.

   GreyChair

   5:06:53June 8th.

   GirardiVice Chair

   5:06:54Okay. So moved. Second. And I would just make a request for stuff. Please do not put the Saddlebrook M P D on the same agenda. Please.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   5:07:06David doesn't want to buy dinner. One favorite?

   5:07:12And Margaret, thank you for all your work. I mean I Again, I I echoed that yesterday, but thanks for all your hard work on this and Tim and your whole time.

   Moody

   5:07:19I

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   5:07:19think

   Moody

   5:07:20the only regret that I have over this entire discussion is that in your entire tenure as the county engineer, I have not met you until this issue came up. So I don't know how long you were here, but I hope that the We'll have a better relationship with the next county engineer that comes along. I'm sorry not to have met you. And after discussing with you yesterday it was very clear that you're a very bright

   5:07:50person, so

   GreyChair

   5:07:54All right. Well thanks for coming, everybody. I appreciate you coming over and for some tea and coffee.

4. 4Mar 21, 2023
   Board of County CommissionersP41Public hearingContinued

   Approved minutes

   Approved to continue the item to the June 20, 2023 Board of County Commissioners meeting at 1:30 p.m. in New Port Richey by roll call vote.

   Open this item →▶ Play from 8:58
   ▶ 8:582m

   MarianoChair

   8:58Commission meeting of March 21, 2023. Please silence all electronic devices and mute your phones. We will continue to we'll proceed with public hearing ordinance. P41 continuance.

   9:14Yes.

   Starkey

   9:15Um Mr. Chairman P forty one was published in the Tampay Times on March eighth, twenty twenty-three.

   Nectarios Pittos

   9:20Okay, thank you. Mr. Chairman M41 is an ordinance by the Pasco County Board of County Commissioners amending the Pasco County Land Development Code, Chapter 300 Procedures, Section 303, Common Procedures, adding Section 303.

   9:33Yeah. Standards Manual, Chapter 400 Permit Types and Applications, Section 402.2 Zoning Amendment, MPUD Master Planning Unit Development District, Section 407.5 Alternative Standards, Chapter 900 Development Standards, Section 901.3 Access Management, Section 901.4, Substandard Roadway Analysis and Mitigation, Section 901.6, Street Design and Dedication Requirements, Section 901.7, Bicycle Facilities. Section 901.8 pedestrian facilities, section 901 ten, traffic control devices, section nine02.2 stormwater management requirements and

   10:03other sections as necessary for internal consistency, providing for applicability, repealer, providing for severability, inclusion into the land development code in an effective date. This is Is coming with a continuance request to the June 20, 2023 BCC meeting at 1 30 p.m. here in Newport Ritchie. May

   MarianoChair

   10:20I

   Nectarios Pittos

   10:20have a motion to continue P forty

   MarianoChair

   10:21one.

   Nectarios Pittos

   10:21So

   MarianoChair

   10:22move.

   Starkey

   10:23Second.

   MarianoChair

   10:24And roll call vote.

   Starkey

   10:25District one, Commissioner Oakley. District two, Commissioner Weightman.

   MarianoChair

   10:30Uh

   Starkey

   10:31District three, Commissioner Starkey. Aye. District four, Commissioner Bradford.

   MarianoChair

   10:35Aye.

   Starkey

   10:36District five, Commission Chairman Mariano.

5. 5Apr 4, 2023
   Board of County CommissionersP42Public hearingContinued

   Approved minutes

   Approved to continue the item to the July 11, 2023 Board of County Commissioners meeting at 1:30 p.m. in Dade City.

   Open this item →▶ Play from 6:14
   ▶ 6:141m

   MarianoChair

   6:14I see we have people still signing up. We're going to be starting the public hearing process. Um Let's put back an order for meeting P forty two.

   Madam Clerk

   6:27P forty two publication on March eighth, Tampa Bay Times.

   OakleyVice Chair

   6:37Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

   6:46Section 303 Common Procedures Add and Section.

   6:52B forty two is an ordinance to amend the land development code. And it is being it is ENA twenty-three zero zero zero five being continued to the July eleventh, twenty twenty three, one thirty PM meeting in Dade City. Okay, motion

   MarianoChair

   7:04to continue.

   Unidentified speakerVoice G

   7:06Move to continue.

6. 6Jun 20, 2023
   Board of County CommissionersP44Public hearingContinued

   Approved minutes

   Approved to continue the item to a date uncertain by a roll call vote.

   Open this item →▶ Play from 9:41
   ▶ 9:412m

   Starkey

   9:41Uh publication was um in the Tampa Bay Times on March eighth, twenty twenty three.

   OakleyVice Chair

   9:46Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh Nictorios Pitos Planning and Development. Item P forty four is in ordinance by the Pasco County Board of County Commissioners, amending the Pasco County Land Development Code. Chapter 300, Procedures, Section 303, Common Procedures, adding Section 303.1 Point B, Design Standards Manual. Chapter 400 Permit Types and Applications. Section 402.2 Zoning Amendment. MPUD Master Planet Development District. Section 407.5 Alternative Standards. Chapter 900 Development Standards. Section 901.3 Access Management. Section 901.4

   10:17Substandard Roadway Analysis and Mitigation. Section 901.6 Street Design and Dedication Requirements. Section 901.7 Bicycle Facilities. Section 901.8 Pedestrian facilities, section section nine oh one point ten, traffic control devices, section nine oh two point two stormwater management requirements, and other sections as necessary for internal consistency providing for applicability appealer. Providing for severability inclusion into the land development code in an effective date and this is to continue to a date uncertain.

   MarianoChair

   10:44Okay, we have a motion to continue time uncertain. Uh

   OakleyVice Chair

   10:48so move.

   Starkey

   10:48May I ask a question? Uh why uncertain? What's going on?

   Denise

   11:00Commissioner's Denise Hernandez Planning and Development for the record. Um basically it's being continued to a date uncertain because you have a new public work you have a new engineering services director and uh we need to meet with Mr. Arin uh to speak about this. Oh

   Starkey

   11:15that's some of the stuff Margaret was working on? Correct. Yes. Thank you so much. Okay.

   OakleyVice Chair

   11:20So I made the motion.

   Starkey

   11:21Second.

   OakleyVice Chair

   11:22And roll call vote.

   Starkey

   11:23Second. District One, Commissioner Oakley.

   OakleyVice Chair

   11:25Aye.

   Starkey

   11:25District two, Commissioner Weightman. Aye. District three, Commissioner Starkey. Aye. District four, Commissioner Bradford.

   MarianoChair

   11:32I

   Starkey

   11:33District five, Chairman Mariano.

   MarianoChair

   11:35Hi. Next item P forty five.

7. 7Jul 11, 2023
   Board of County CommissionersP49Public hearingContinued

   Approved minutes

   Approved to continue the item to a date uncertain by roll call vote with Commissioner Starkey absent from the vote.

   Open this item →▶ Play from 7:17
   ▶ 7:171m

   MarianoChair

   7:17Vote of the Pasco County Commission book meeting of July eleventh, twenty twenty three. Please silent all electronic devices and mute your phones.

   7:25We will proceed with public hearing starting with ordinances. Item P forty-nine, continuance. Madam Clerk.

   Starkey

   7:33Yes, sir. Um P forty nine was advertised in Tampa Bay Times March eighth, twenty twenty three.

   OakleyVice Chair

   7:39Okay. Thank you, Mr. Chairman Mariano Spitos, Planning and Development Department. Item P forty nine is ENA twenty three zero zero zero five. Uh this is an ordinance for a proposed change to land development code regarding the design standards manual and it's being continued to a date uncertain. Okay.

   MarianoChair

   7:57I have a motion to continue P49. So move.

   OakleyVice Chair

   8:00Second.

   MarianoChair

   8:01Roll call vote.

   Starkey

   8:03Uh yes sir. District one, Commissioner Oakley. Aye. District two, Commissioner Weightman.

   Barry Shine

   8:07Aye.

   Starkey

   8:07District three, Commissioner Starkey. District four, Commissioner Bradford.