An Ordinance By The Pasco County Board Of County Commissioners Amending The Pasco County Land Development Code; Chapter 300 Procedures; Section 303 Common Procedures Adding Section 303.1.B Design Standards Manual; Chapter 400 Permit Types And Applications; Section 402.2 Zoning Amendment – MPUD Master Planned Unit Development District; Section 407.5 Alternative Standards; Chapter 900 Development Standards; Section 901.3 Access Management; Section 901.4 Substandard Roadway Analysis And Mitigation; Section 901.6 Street Design And Dedication Requirements; Section 901.7 Bicycle Facilities; Section 901.8 Pedestrian Facilities; Section 901.10 Traffic Control Devices; Section 902.2 Stormwater Management Requirements; And Other Sections, As Necessary, For Internal Consistency; Providing For Applicability; Repealer; Providing For Severability; Inclusion Into The Land Development Code, And An Effective Date.

4:39:51This needs to come as a separate issue from the roadway width issue, the subdivision roadway width. In this ordinance, something that's staying resident in the land development code are the pavement widths and right-of-way widths for subdivision streets. We used to have five types of streets and now it's going to be three types of streets, and these streets are getting narrower. And I'm sure that the horizontal roundtable loves the idea of having the narrower streets.

4:40:21That's how much pavement I don't have to pay for when I go build the subdivision. And those commissioners are screaming about having not enough room in the driveway to park my vehicle. So I'm sure that the idea of a narrower street probably enthralls them. But as someone who's lived in subdivisions, and here's a place where you might have some unintended consequences, yep, I made the commissioner happier and I gave him a foot extra room in the driveway by taking it out of the street. And then,

4:40:52do you ever have a lawn done? And the guy pulls up in his pickup truck in the lawn trailer. Is he pulling your driveway? No, he parks in the street. And now I got a ten foot wide lane instead of a twelve foot wide lane. And how am I getting that fire truck through? How am I getting that ambulance through? How's the other lawn guy getting past your lawn guy? Well they're rubbing fenders. on the street. I'd like to have that come back to the Planning Commission as a separate change to the land development code

4:41:22that can be adequately vetted and not mixed in with this.

4:41:27Okay, so Mr. Mini, I raised a very similar concern to what you just raised when I met with staff yesterday. Because our board has raised concerns about not having adequate on-street parking in subdivisions. And we actually had one commissioner try to make a motion that all subdivisions in the county should have we should just allow on street parking across the entire county. And then our emergency services people said that is we have some older subdivisions where I we couldn't get our emergency

4:41:57vehicles through on the road. if you allow that. And they so it got stopped. But

4:42:06You know, I think our board does want a permanent solution or a go on a going forward basis to how we're dealing with this issue of on-street parking. And when I looked at the same amendments you looked at where they were narrowing the right-of-way, I asked some of the similar questions that you asked, which is how are you addressing the board's concern about on-street parking? Because it seems to me you're just narrowing the right-of-way. And yes you have some cross sections that still allow for on street parking, but then you're eliminating green space, which I don't know if the board's okay with or not. And you're not

4:42:36even making sure that they can have on street parking, which I don't know if you address the board's concern on that issue. And so I raised very very similar concerns to you and staff said they would have some internal conversations about it and and potentially make some revisions, go to Horizon Round Table and discuss it. So And that was another reason why this is getting continued.

4:42:58And I appreciate that that they'll go have that process because the explanation I've been given to date is this is a promise that the previous county administrator made to the HRT. Well, that's all fine and dandy except he ain't here and then there's been a little change in philosophy since his his departure as to widths of lots and

4:43:18Well and my biggest concern with is I'm not even sure it's consistent with what the Board of County Commissioners has directed the planning department to do. So that staff has agreed to have some internal conversations, rediscuss that issue with Horsana Roundtable, and try to address the concerns better. It that may or may not be able to happen over the next two months. If it can, I think staff would like to bring it as one packet. If it if it it's still an issue, I agree with you it

4:43:49should be pulled out and dealt with separately. But I think staff is at least going to make an attempt to fix Make the amendment consistent with what I think current board intent is. Um And we can m let Mr. Pito speak to it, but I believe he's been directed to do something as it relates to on street parking and tell me if I'm wrong, Mr. Pitos. I mean I don't think we can just ignore the issue of on street parking.

4:44:25Good evening. Um the the matter was brought uh to the Planning and Development Department by the Board of County Commissioners to take a look at it. Uh but the matter was hit hit pause basically. I was I was instructed by I think I don't recall exactly when, but on the discussion of on-street parking, I was told to pause on that recently. And the and that may have been by the previous county administrator. So I'd have to follow up on what the n what

4:44:55the next step is or what the next direction is.

4:44:59And that may be the case Terry that you hold a bit hit pause, but it doesn't solve there was still a concern raised by the board that we haven't solved yet. Correct. It's a question. And the concern I raised was was with the amendment I saw actually potentially made the issue worse.

4:45:17cons considering what the board's concern was. So

4:45:24There's there's one thing to hit pause and do nothing. It's another to actually implement an amendment that may actually make the problem worse than it is today. So that was the concern I raised and that I think Will is gonna discuss with you and hopefully bring back to the Horizontal Roundtable to have a more in depth discussion which is of the very issue that Mr. Moody raised and which I'm talking about. Because I don't think it's it's I agree with Mr. Moody. It's easy to say let's just narrow all the right-of-way. But

4:45:55you can't do that without having some discussion about what you're doing to on street parking. And emergency vehicle

4:46:03access. Right. We we right now the codes that we have in place um are mainly talking about preserving that emergency accessibility. And as a result, um if you don't have the necessary right-of-way width, or excuse me, the necessary street width, um We have uh in the various new developments with MPUDs a requirement that parking be restricted accordingly by the C D

4:46:33Ds or the HOAs. So what ends up happening is as the roads get built, the um with the with the lane width that are in in the code, um the no parking signs go up and that prevents

4:46:47And I hear it and I see it and I see them in the conditions that we we get here and I don't mean to get into a giant debate about all of this. But at the end of the day we all know what it's like to live in a subdivision. And in fact I used to live in Jamie's subdivision years ago Listen, you have guests over, you have a party. You have a wedding reception, whatever the whatever the thing may be, there's an event and there's people parking and Well, when

4:47:17you got a twenty foot setback to the house, even though you've got two car driveway, well you'll get two cars in there, but your other six guests they're parking on the street. At least I had the luxury of living on a cul-de-sac so we could send them up around the cul-de-sac, but not everybody does. So I mean that happens and and if you live in a neighborhood where everybody's being towed away constantly, I don't think that creates a great uh quality of life.

4:47:43Well that's actually how the issue is talking about quality of life issues. I mean it seems like they should be widening the roads, not

4:47:48uh

4:47:49narrowing the

4:47:49roads. Well that's actually that's actually the issue how the issue got to the board is exactly what you said, Mr. Moody, was there was some people that wanted to have some guests over for a party. They were forced to get this temporary parking permit to do so, and a commissioner said, Why are they having to do this? We should just allow everyone Everybody to park on the street. And that's when this whole discussion starts well, it's when it really started to manifest itself. And The commissioner's no longer on the board, but even up until the time he was leaving he was

4:48:19pushing that we should just allow all on street parking. But it it's the width of the road that caused the that stopped that from happening. And so you raise a very legitimate point that maybe we should need to rethink whether we should be narrowing these roads if that's going to impact the ability to have on street parking.

4:48:39this to Margaret. I thought this was dangerous to mix the design standards manual and that particular issue into one ordinance because you may end up with the baby thrown out with the bathwater over it. I think the roadway issue is probably a much bigger issue than the design standards manual.

4:48:59So I agree. One quick thing, if I could add that really quick. The way the code exists today, we have a solution to that issue. You know, it doesn't necessarily work retroactively with things that are already out there. But our code does differentiate that if there's going to be on-street parking in the neighborhood, then those right-of-way widths are widened and the pavement widths are widened. to accommodate it. It's there. That's in our code. So uh moving forward we can if if the board wants to have on-street parking or wider payment for that they can deviate from

4:49:29this more general standard.

4:49:32That'll be a policy decision that they have to take up and then of course they'll have to respond to their electorate who doesn't like having to go get if they live in the neighborhood where the C D D says you can't park on the street and they gotta go get a permit, I guess they'll have to answer to those people but

4:49:51So i but it's a bigger discussion than just on street parking, 'cause based on the conversation I had with Wilpoon yesterday, some of that also affects the the green space that's available next next to the roadway and that's a policy decision too

4:50:05about we essentially lose street trees and utilities management.

4:50:09So sometimes you're sacrificing green space for on street parking, but that doesn't also depend

4:50:17You know,

4:50:17I said

4:50:19in one of the cases today, I think it was the one on Clinton Avenue, the townhomes on Clinton, there was a condition. that basically said You didn't need to provide driveway flares, and what they were attempting to do was to create some more room for them to plant some trees. And so now we're down here trying, we've got things so compact that we're literally worried about nine square feet. The driveway flares in this county are three

4:50:50feet by three feet. So on both sides of the driveway, that's nine square feet. We're now trying to scrimp for nine square feet to add a tree. Brad, how much, how many square feet? What's the minimum square footage we require in a parking lot island to plant? It's bigger

4:51:06than nine square feet. We would love a ten by ten area for planting a big shade tree, but so Yeah three by three. Yeah, that's actually got the little triangle.

4:51:14It's not much bigger than the podium.

4:51:16That that

4:51:17was uh

4:51:17that was a an effort to deal with the issues of the front loaded town hall. Minimum distances

4:51:23there. Yeah, and like I said, and I'm not picking on that, I'm just the point being that we've got things so jammed and crammed in at this point, and I think that's why there's some pushback for people that are wanted to see a little more elbow room in some of these subdivisions. Because they do become quality of life issues and now we're getting down to the Now we're getting down almost to the ridiculousness That here we are a scrounge you find me nine square feet so I can add a tree.

4:51:50Yeah, and we're get we're we're You know, the developers obviously they're s they're squeezing the county to try to get as much as they can out of the land, but that's not our responsibility. I in my mind, our responsibility is to get the best we can for our community.

4:52:08And I appreciate that. And the one thing that I hope staff recognizes is that this guy, this guy, this guy, and that guy, and I don't know what Peter does, so I apologize. But we all make our living from this growth. And we aren't working for the government here. We work for the private sector. Okay? We make our living from the very people we're here regulating.

4:52:31Yeah. So we don't We're we're never a at least in my opinion, we're never in favor of just growth. We want to see good growth.

4:52:44Well and you all for the most part I think you all live in the county. So I mean. So for example, Chuck and I live in a neighborhood that has tons of on street parking and it actually works fairly well, I say. Yeah. So, you know

4:53:00But but and we know lots of green space between our parking and our I mean, so Why are we adopting land of Oma codes that have no green space to to accommodate the on-street parking and apparently don't require on street parking at all?

4:53:15Well, that's a simple answer there.

4:53:26That's what it that's what it comes down to, financial financial situations where how much can I make off this particular product? You know, I came from a community before I moved here and retired. That's what I do, in case you wanted to know.

4:53:42You're the only one that's as smarter

4:53:44anymore. We're all working. I had no choice, but I came from a community where they did uh I can't think of it, but maybe they they took the the uh funding from the Cancer Cigarette Fund and they gave it to Very wealthy landowners who raised horses. And these people were not poor. They gave them a ton of money. And the intent was to try to keep green space. But on a few of them, they sold, after they got the money and waited a period of

4:54:14time, they sold that property off and made another ton of money. And then when I go back, I go back in May to see my son, others up there, I will see where the horse. farm used to be and it used to be a famous forest farm called Hamburg, I believe it was the name of it. It's no longer there. It's

4:54:31commercial business. It's hotels, it's restaurants, it's a you know, it's all kinds of things. So going back to your question there, i I think the Land Co development needs to look out for the individual citizen. And I think that's one of the reasons why I think all of us are here for the the four of you folks that still work. Except for my school partner back here and he does I think you look at you try to look out for the you try to look out for the folks there, but it's hard, you know. I

4:55:02had a hard time today as you figure out with that one particular project. You know, I wouldn't like to see them put into homes. as opposed to it but also you have the way in fact that you know density of population is important. Parking s on streets is important, but getting that fire truck through that street is important. It's probably more important than anything else. Because in my community where I live at, it comes in almost daily now those fire trucks because we have three types of communities in there. Most of them are a lot older than I am, if you

4:55:32can believe that or not. And some of the Folks are a little younger than I am. So the fire department's there for those older folks. And you need to have those rules there on wide streets that can get the fire truck through. If you get them too narrow, and I lived in communities when I lived in one city, Kansas, and I won't say the thing in the cities, but the streets were very narrow because they were very old. When they used to have horses and buggies go down those streets. But the newer communities have wider street. So this is what you're the

4:56:02land development code is an important tool and it has to be something that's constructed in a very wise manner. And we're fortunate fortunate they got three folks on here that know this code, and I and in particular Mr. Moody and the attorneys are very reasonable people. I hate to see the fact that you would start to narrow streets down. That's a very, very small, uh narrow one to bring on. But I go to Costco a lot and their parking spaces that are much much wider than

4:56:32the norm. They took it onto themselves to do that.

4:56:36Well, so but I want to be clear, there probably is a limit to that because if you make the local sub industry too wide, it becomes a runway and then you have speedy. So I mean it's true. So there there is a balance. There's got to be a balance there that meets everybody's needs. Absolutely. I'm just not sure that this the change that Mr. Moody references have gone through that level Of analysis

4:56:58and all that. The whole point was that is a an important discussion to be had. And we're actually not even making it till this moment. We spent all of this time hung up on the design standards manual at the last meeting and then at the outset of this discussion, when there is a bigger fish in here in which we need to look. Yeah. And so I'm asking staff to consider bringing that Bring

4:57:28that back separately. So that that can be properly vetted and not get tied up in The design state.

4:57:40It's four lines on a chart. Because some of what they're doing where they're collapsing road types into different into smaller number of road types isn't affecting the issue you're talking about. No, I think the issue you're talking about if there's four lines in a chart where they reduce the widths of some of the local subdivision streets, and I've talked to Denise, that that may need to be pulled out. If it we can't get a good resolution of it. Yeah, I I basically I agree with you. But I think they are gonna attempt to get a resolution of it 'cause there probably is a good resolution that accommodates

4:58:10all the addressed issues we just talked about. I just don't know if they'll get it done in the next two months. If they can't I think they are prepared I think they're prepared to pull it out.

4:58:19to make sure we have a good solution whenever we implement it.

4:58:25Because I don't want to make the problem worse. Exactly.

4:58:32Yeah, I think that may I mean to me that makes a good point to the board that the board n I mean and and they ultimately will be the one that makes the the final decision on you know, what what happens and how is this design standards manual adopted, approved, the modifications and and what is that skinny process. I I still don't fully understand and grasp, you know, I know there was a kind of a concession to go with a the the public hearing here and the resolution of the board, but I I mean What how much more work is it to go to public hearing here, public hearing of the board? Is

4:59:02that a procedural issue or is that

4:59:05I I guess I'll ask Denise that question. I mean, do you think the skinnier process is less work for staff? staff.

4:59:11But it well

4:59:12I'm asking, I don't know.

4:59:14Can you ask the question again? I'm sorry, David.

4:59:17The skinnier process that we came up with for the design standards manual where you have one public hearing in front of Planning Commission and the Board adopts it by resolution, how much less work is that for you than three public hearing?

4:59:32So I would say that it's quite a bit less work than um three public hearing. Um particularly no the notice if it remains the same as it is today. I know we're moving towards something else. Um

4:59:50And just bringing it to the this would be the the only public hearing at Planning Commission, that's I think I think it's it's simpler. It cut it cuts out some some work, certainly.

5:00:02Well, it's left it cuts out work from three public hearing, so what if they were both public hearing and the board wasn't a resolution, it was a public hearing?

5:00:12Board

5:00:12is the final hearing

5:00:13after a resolution.

5:00:15You could do the final board hearing at a public hearing. Бдэм. 'Cause just a matter of which part of the agenda it appears on and then whether they have to do a notice for it. The the key thing about a public hearing is that they've got to notice it, which Denise is right, we may be moving to website notice in the near future, which might make that easier, but In the absence of that, they have to put an ad in the paper whenever they do a public hearing.

5:00:41So I I hear it and I understand wanting to have easier work. But the one thing I've been screaming about since I got back here in Gilleth is public notice, public notice, public notice, public notice. I've been

5:00:52pretty consistent about that. That being said, LDC changes, the only notice they get is an ad in the paper, which with all due respect very people read. Yeah, I agree with that to get one. So so it's not like that many people are showing up at the public hearing because of the ad we put in the paper. Really in reality what happens on Land Development Code Amendments is that there's a problem with them. They know about it because it went through horizontal round table, because it went through Planning Commission and they've been following that amendment and they have a concern with it. And so then they

5:01:22show up at the board and saying, I don't like what horizontal round table did. I don't like what Planning Commission did. I still have concerns. They're not n they're not finding out about it because there was a notice in the paper.

5:01:34In which case it wouldn't matter if it was a resolution or a public comment.

5:01:40I still have concerns with this board and and probably the board would pull it from consent and discuss it.

5:01:47The only issue is whether you want to have a public hearing in front of the board where somebody could In theory, you know You could get thirty people to show up and notice it and everything else.

5:02:00But

5:02:03I guess my my point is if you're gonna do that you might as well just keep it in the land at all 'cause then they're just having to, you know, do what they're doing now and I will be honest with you, probably ninety percent of the land of well land development code amendments we do, nobody shows up to speak to them.

5:02:23This is true.

5:02:24Pretty good.

5:02:27So you are, and Denise is in theory just doing process for the sake of process. She's putting an ad in the paper that nobody's reading.

5:02:36And there's a there's another work effort there that uh you know, you're you're talking about having all of your different experts available for that many hearings that they are then not working on other things. So there's kind of a change in the work effort that's not directly related to producing that. But it's taking people away from other work that they could be doing as well. So I would like that to be thought about a little bit in in that discussion because it it is, you know, a lot of we've got, you know, senior uh engineering staff here for

5:03:06consult um three times all day long or you know, however long it is. Um that's that's a lot of work time lost. Uh that's You know, again, like David said, there may be nothing to talk about. They may just be sitting here.

5:03:20J just the underline Brad's point, uh it's production work. The the movement of cases and review et cetera that they would normally look at for technical reviews on various projects. That's the kind of work that that's hard to do.

5:03:39I'll agree with you but I'm not gonna give you any sympathy because there's no production going on at my company right now.

5:03:47They're glad for that part. Actually can we have some extra meetings maybe?

5:03:58Well Okay. No, you don't want to do that. I if you know, think about the skinny process. I guess that's what staff's gonna recommend when this comes back. Even if they fix some of the issues you talked about with design savings manual, that's the process they came up with.

5:04:15Yeah.

5:04:16If you both could think of a better way to do it.

5:04:20That's open for discussion. Maybe the board doesn't like it either. But Again, they're trying to strike a balance between agility and democracy.

5:04:31And I done put it. I don't know if they got the right balance, but they try. So They heard you loud and clear the Planning Commission didn't want that you didn't want this bypassing the Planning Commission without your input. And that's where they tried to give you some input.

5:04:46We appreciate that. Yes. What date did we want the continuance to?

5:04:51May fourth, twenty twenty three, one thirty, date city.

5:04:55I move to continue the item to May 4th. As much as I want to talk about it for another hour, I'll second.

5:05:03Go ahead, Margaret. Sorry.

5:05:05What what did you say Margaret?

5:05:07I'm just wondering now if we want if that if May is enough time. Yeah.

5:05:14Well speak now or forever. July fourth.

5:05:22The following option would be June s um June eighth at one thirty in Date City. Following that would be July sixth, one thirty in Date City.

5:05:35I

5:05:35got a preference.

5:05:37July sixth.

5:05:38I I mean we can always continue it again. I mean

5:05:41July sixth. Either way, Denise is gonna have to re out regardless. So it doesn't matter what date you pick, it just what how long do you think it's gonna take the staff to

5:05:48And Margaret honestly I and I know you've probably heard this already. I mean I well eight, ten years ago there was you know some there was a whole you know committee or a whole group of people that were sat in a room every month just like the horizontal round table does and was were looking at changes to the stormwater ordinance. I mean it depends on on how much you're trying to bite off and what you're trying to change or what we're trying to implement on how long it's gonna take. I mean I think w last time the stormwater section was looked at, I think that was discussed for a year and a half and nothing ended up happening. The

5:06:18person that was working on it left. um left the county. So

5:06:23And I've been on two different land development re code rewrite committees over the years. And I can tell you the only thing that got rewritten in those codes for the most part was the order in which they appear in the code. Yeah, it's hard.

5:06:40Okay, so we have a motion. We have a second. Further discussion? All in favor? That's no that's the June July 6th. What was the date,

5:06:49Denise?

5:06:50It was the date is June 8th, 130, Date 6th.

5:06:53June 8th.

5:06:54Okay. So moved. Second. And I would just make a request for stuff. Please do not put the Saddlebrook M P D on the same agenda. Please.

5:07:06David doesn't want to buy dinner. One favorite?

5:07:12And Margaret, thank you for all your work. I mean I Again, I I echoed that yesterday, but thanks for all your hard work on this and Tim and your whole time.

5:07:19I

5:07:19think

5:07:20the only regret that I have over this entire discussion is that in your entire tenure as the county engineer, I have not met you until this issue came up. So I don't know how long you were here, but I hope that the We'll have a better relationship with the next county engineer that comes along. I'm sorry not to have met you. And after discussing with you yesterday it was very clear that you're a very bright

5:07:50person, so

5:07:54All right. Well thanks for coming, everybody. I appreciate you coming over and for some tea and coffee.