Discussion - Multi-Family Land-Use - No Funding Required

57:26Yeah. R fifty two uh yeah, R fifty two is the right number. And we have Mr. Pitos here in front of us.

57:48Ooh.

57:50I don't know. We could just demand for this.

57:56Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh this item is for the multifamily discussion that's on the regular agenda. for the Board of County Commissioners today. Um what I'll go ahead and do is a brief overview of the locational criteria uh background. a summary of information that's been presented by the Planning Development Department to the Board of County Commissioners in brief uh today. We'll go through some current issues and concerns. Uh what questions and data still remain to be understood and uh effectively asked what is the

58:26what is the main issue here. And then also review some of the options for consideration. That the board may uh may look into.

58:36Next slide, please. Yes, thank you. Um so on the overhead here we have a summary of background in terms of some of the locational criteria. Uh this comes from the ULI report that's often cited to the Board of County Commissioners regarding this subject on multifamily land use. Um and then in 2008 the ULI report recommended to divide the county into five sub-areas, each with its own vision and strategies. Uh It it also recommended that we revise the comprehensive plan with focus on infrastructure improvements and specific growth.

59:07nodes or or specific locations within the county. Um it uh identified a demand over 20 years for residential projects to be the largest in the south area of the county, what would eventually become known in the comprehensive plan as the south market area. And then of course the ULI report identified that and said ought to promote higher density, more compact development. to take advantage of of transit opportunities by encouraging vertical uh development, cluster development and such, and to concentrate those

59:37uses uh to allow the preservation enhancement of the natural systems that exist. The South Market area does have quite a bit of open space in terms of wetlands and what have you. Uh and also to designate an urban service area. So th those are some of the findings. that were identified in the ULI report. Next slide. Um this map you've seen a number of times, uh beginning with the workshop that was in February of twenty twenty. This is essentially uh identifying where the different types of residential

1:00:07products exist. So the the the light yellowish color That's on the map uh illustrates where single family residential districts are uh primarily located. Uh and then some of the the red colors that are on the map illustrate uh MPUDs, mul master plan unit developments, and those which have residential within them. And we've broken it down on the map there for the dark Burgundy ones to illustrate where MPUDs that are only about multifamily

1:00:38The pink ones illustrate multifamily is allowed within the MPUDs. And the dark or the deep red is uh multifamily residential districts proper, such as MF1s and what have you. And if you recall at the January 12 BCC meeting, we dove into the area that's specifically located around Sari Road 54, 56, and I-75 that shows up on this map as the Burgundy MPUDs.

1:01:07Uh next slide please. This map is illustrating the extent of the urban service area. And it's also identifying a number of zoning districts. I think it's the C2 zoning district on this on this particular map, so that you have an idea for where some of the those C2 uses or rather zoning districts are, which do allow for multifamily via conditional use if you're in the right future land use category. But in general,

1:01:38it's not a good idea.

1:01:38Pardon me?

1:01:39That's what the red is because there's no

1:01:41Yeah, it it the key got cut off at the bottom there. Um But this is the urban service area and that's the point of the slide.

1:01:51Um next slide please.

1:01:54So in terms of the locational criteria that the ULI report in twenty thirteen identified, it continued to su to ask for focus focusing growth on major corridors to enhance opportunities for connectivity, transit and placemaking. Um they encourage transit development as a trip reduction measure. The consolidate employment zones to avoid sprawl and enhance transit. uh diverse uh through various policies create diverse shopping entertainment uses focused

1:02:24around those transit stops. Higher density residential located on retail and walkable to transit to eliminate car trips and and dispersed growth patterns are expensive to serve and will further proliferate sprawl and I guess that was the concluding statement to bring all of the other bullets on top of that together. On the map you can kind of see why the South Market area was identified as a is a focal point in in in the county, both in terms of the previous map that showed the urban service area, but then also just from a transportation perspective,

1:02:55the type of east-west access that it can provide to the entire region, as well as uh circulation to and from our neighbors to the south. in Hillsborough County and in uh Penal Penellas County.

1:03:11Hello. Key things to note there, the two oh go back one slide, sorry. There you go. The two arrows going to the north, of course, is the Suncoast Parkway and I-75 corridors. Uh and the fact that 5456 is one of the main links between these two uh expressway systems. um in the region.

1:03:36Next slide.

1:03:39Uh in addition to what the ULI found, uh T Barda has been working on a regional uh project, a regional rapid transit system that will essentially take you from downtown Saint Petersburg all the way up into Wesley into the Wesley Chapel area at State Route 54 and I-75, with a with another stop potentially at State Route 56 and I-75. So two R RT stops within uh Pasco County that service the entire region. And this is uh to be uh

1:04:09considered in line with some of the ULI recommendations and what our comprehensive plan is uh reflecting. For locating populations nearest to transit areas so that they can access.

1:04:26major inter regional infrastructure. such as I seventy five and the regional rapid transit system. Next slide.

1:04:38Uh and this is uh this kind of zooms in. Uh T Barta has an ongoing planning effort. This was this has been one of their um Target areas to put a station. Um and one of the the data for consideration in determining a location for a rapid transit station is land use, population density, which is the subject at hand today, jobs and affordable housing, the riders having the number of commuters uh that can uh go to the station and then also travel away from the station once they arrive in Pascocani.

1:05:08Uh and then also what kind of multimodal connectivity is there within a half a mile of the potential location of that station. Uh so in terms of sidewalk infrastructure, bicycle facilities, um and th and and other modes.

1:05:26Again, going to the uh speaking to the concept of locating Population uh Nearest to infrastructure. Next slide.

1:05:39So uh without going into all the things that we talked about at a previous BCC meeting and at the workshop. Um, we have discussed where multifamily units can be built and how many have been built. Um, and I noted in a in a previous um meeting, 26% of the county is uh res six and twenty-seven percent is res nine. And we talked about how the residential flues can often cap. uh zoning densities, prescribed zoning densities. Um 0.63% of the acres in the county are

1:06:09zone multifamily. Approximately point one seven acres are of single family for every one acre of multifamily. Um the highlighted portion of the slide illustrates new information that hasn't been presented before. There was a question previously in terms of how many multifamily units have been how how many permits have been pulled for new multifamilies since the February 2019 workshop. So we um excuse me, the February 2020 workshop. So we we looked at January 2019 to January 2021

1:06:39and we uh found that there were 412 multifamily units where permits were full. in the same timeframe about 4,481 single family units detached. Uh we're we're pulled on that. in that period. We also discussed options for addressing multifamily at at previous uh board meetings, multi-fam mobility fees um were updated and we've completed that. That was uh with regard to affordable housing, but then also for removing

1:07:10the incentive on multifamily in the mobility fee tables. Um a policy directive was crafted by the Board of County Commission commissioners and issued in the uh summer of twenty twenty. Uh and then there's been uh a zoning district update which has been initiated um in terms of the Plan development called rewrite activities.

1:07:32Uh

1:07:32yes.

1:07:33So I disagree with what I don't know where you're getting this from um this January nineteenth of twenty twenty one and I say this Terry because when you the information you provided to Annie and I last year, you guys didn't even have all the apartment complexes in this area. We had to find a bunch of them. So that was incorrect. Sorry, but it's I'm right. Um This 412, so let me ask you, the the new one that was built in front of recently in front of Lexington Oaks, let's embed Math's probably been about almost a year

1:08:03now, that can still have signs out front that says, you know, rentals available. How many units does that have?

1:08:09O off the top of my head, I don't know. But the this information was uh Coming out of your your cellar system. It's it's b it's based on it's not particular to any one development, it's across Uh

1:08:23I mean you guys had a and I'm not correct, I'll bring Andy up here in a second. Um you guys can't find all that information on Lacella. That was told to me. Yeah, I just don't have the ability to find all that information on the cellar. The n the number of permits and number you guys were having difficulty finding that information. You guys couldn't even find you guys couldn't even find all the information for the apartment complexes. Well am I not right? I'm gonna let Landy tell you because he went through this with me.

1:08:50Well we can, if I may. Well

1:08:52why didn't you? If I may. Because I was

1:08:54always good. You've asked a lot of questions and he hasn't been able to answer one. So don't so let I need to hear answers. It does seem low to me. You're saying only 412 rent rental units have been permitted in the last two years?

1:09:09Permits

1:09:10pulled. Permits pulled. Permits pulled. So some of the ones that have been built on fifty four were pulled prior to this. So this is just in this window and we charge a mobility fee by unit, which means we would be able to know the number of units. On in each in each. Yeah.

1:09:27So is that in a certain area? Is this in the Urban service area.

1:09:32I think this is uh well most of it it's it's an urban service area, but it's basically an across the county number.

1:09:40So like the the I think there's some coming up in front of Long Lake Ranch. Were those then pulled before twenty nineteen? You know

1:09:52Yeah. Uh Sun Lake and fifty four. There's a lot of construction going on.

1:09:56I'm not sure they pulled They may not pull the building permits for those of you that they're doing the site work there. Okay. I don't know.

1:10:06There are some across the street that would have been pulled.

1:10:09Mm-hmm. So the distinction is in a cella, if there's a permit, you can pull the information related to a specific permit. What is difficult to get in this through a cella and to download from a cell is the proposed number or projected number of multifamily units that could be built because in that scenario we actually have to go into each and every MPUD. Download the site planning efforts that have occurred. and basically digest what is the potential for multifamily that's happen that

1:10:39that could happen. That's what can't be pulled from a cellar. A cellar won't give us raw data on that. You have to actually go into the site plan and begin to interpret the site plan to discover, you know, what the potential might might be. But when you're when you're pulling a person It's a direct One to one. uh transaction happening there. And so from that information you can pull it. That data uh exists in another department. That data exists from the Building Construction Services Department.

1:11:08Mr. Chairman Mariano Jack

1:11:09Mariano.

1:11:10Yeah, follow Charleston at Wesley Chapel alone has that's being has two hundred and twenty eight. Units. This is not right.

1:11:22Mr Chairman Mariano

1:11:24double check the number.

1:11:25Mr.

1:11:26Mariano?

1:11:27Yes. Um I think clearly uh We have a disconnect as far as what information is a hundred percent Valid. Um, because if you look at the number of apartments that have been built That those numbers aren't giving us a clear picture. Um as Commissioner Moore mentioned earlier in the previous public hearing we had. We've got DRIs that have all these permitted apartment complexes coming that will be coming in. that it doesn't seem to me that you're accounting for whatsoever. So we've got to get a better accounting

1:11:57total to find out what potentially could happen. Because the densities that we set years ago were designed to be what we would didn't have to do these rezoning. you know, one by one by one. So I think we need to do a really thorough intensive accounting as far as what's out there that can be built. Not just with these premises you're showing right here.

1:12:18Mr. Chairman M and I don't want to keep interrupting, but you know Aiken has two fifty two. So right there I'm at two seventy five uh four seventy five for two pro just two projects.

1:12:32Yeah, but their permits might have been pulled before that.

1:12:35I mm I don't see how the uh

1:12:38Well they sit on there for a while. They have to go get their

1:12:40I carry we could definitely look into the numbers, but you know

1:12:45Okay, so

1:12:47The intent was to illustrate the activity that's happening in one year's time.

1:12:52Right.

1:12:53Since the twenty twenty workshop. Well isn't

1:12:56that two years time?

1:12:57Exactly.

1:12:59Is that a mistake there?

1:13:02Should that

1:13:03be January twenty twenty? January twenty twenty, I'm sorry. Yeah. Okay. There's a typo there.

1:13:10Mr. Chairman, just follow up.

1:13:14Aiken is the one at Twin Lakes, which you guys just approved like about a year ago. Um So that permit had to be pulled and that one's that one's uh two fifty-two alone.

1:13:26I think he's made a mistake here. He just says that's twenty nineteen and twenty twenty.

1:13:30If they're doing site work, they haven't pulled a building permit yet. And it wouldn't be counted yet. If they're building the buildings. Then they're going vertical. Then that would

1:13:38yeah.

1:13:38But if this was the ye the calendar year 2019, then it wouldn't be in that.

1:13:43Then they go That's a one year snapshot. Nineteen to tw so you're saying this is nineteen to twenty, nine nineteen to twenty. I think that's what I heard.

1:13:51That's what I have to say.

1:13:53Okay.

1:13:56Okay. Not two years.

1:13:59Okay, let's let him finish his

1:14:02We will circle back on the On the actual date.

1:14:08Um next slide please.

1:14:12In terms of the mobility fee update, a quick summary of that. Um

1:14:18Multifamily and the mobility fee tables that will not have an increase to the net fee would be the low rise condominium townhouse, the high rise condominium uh three or more stories, age restricted, multifamily. and congregate care facilities. So condos, townhouses age restricted, multifamily And kind of get care. Multifamily apartments in Motor M T D or T O D will also not have an increase to the net fee only in those only those in the standard category across urban, suburban, and rural, meaning that when the fee was

1:14:48eliminated, they would those that find themselves within Modern M T and D and T will still have an incentive. And at the time the board um found that to be consistent with the intent, which is to make a a trip reduction community. out of modern T and D and T O D.

1:15:10Next slide please. Um this is a quick summary of the multifamily policy directive that was uh approved over the summer, illustrates the s State Road fifty four and state road fifty six corridor from Gun Highway to US three oh one Right. I won't go into all of that. I think that's um everyone is familiar with it. Uh the main idea being that if you're within two thousand feet of this corridor,

1:15:40um multifamily ought sh must locate uh to the to the rear of the corridor, enabling a viable commercial and slash non-residential frontage for employment generating uses along the corridor itself.

1:15:58Next slide please.

1:16:02Uh we also discussed affordable housing needs for Pasco County for citizens. Um at the board workshop back in February, so 40% of the Pasco households have incomes under 80% of the AMI. And qualify as low moderate income households and fifty four percent of Tasco County residents are cost burdened and pay more than thirty percent of their uh household income on housing. Largest housing needs are for own owners and renters below sixty percent. And that was just uh framing some of the uh multi some

1:16:32of the multifamily discussion. Um at the time back in February.

1:16:37And and I wanna say to me, um as I'm learning more and more, this this is so important to the stability of communities. I um I it used to be that DRIs had a um um affordable housing component to them. I don't, I think it was 10%. Do you do you remember what it was, Terry? Were you were you here in Florida when we had DRIs?

1:16:59I was not no.

1:17:01Okay, it was 10%. So 10% of any DRI had to have workforce housing kind of um um built into it. Got away from that. And so now now it's a problem. You don't want your people don't want to have to drive far away. um from where they can afford to live to get to their job.

1:17:24Right.

1:17:25And I think we have a responsibility to make sure that within any amount of distance, certain amount of distance, and I don't know what that number is, but a certain amount of distance from any employment center or you know lar large employment area, we need to have some workforce housing. Um Because I you n you know, down in Monroe County The teachers and the policemen and uh the the r the um service industry people Live in Miami Dade,

1:17:55and they take 'em down there in buses. What kind of quality of life is that? Because they can't afford to live there. So I'm I am really getting concerned that we don't pay enough attention to this part of our society and they need to be integrated into all our communities.

1:18:12Some of the Molder family we're looking at is unaffordable for the people that you're talking about.

1:18:17Oh a class A apartment

1:18:18that is not

1:18:19work for the

1:18:20These are 1450 for a single bedroom. So I mean they they can afford some of that.

1:18:24That's a different animal. And um I just actually was on a well We'll we'll talk ab I hope we have a workshop on this sometime because I want to talk about land trusts and other things that we can do to help that. Well

1:18:36Mr. Chairman Mariano.

1:18:38Yeah, Mr. Chairman, just to respond to the statement you just made, and you made a good statement because you made a statement earlier in the last hearing, which I didn't appreciate by the way, but no, I'm being serious. You just stated, you contradicted your own statement from earlier, people can't afford those fifteen hundred dollar a month apartments. I don't disagree. Four

1:18:55percent of our sense.

1:18:56And you're s yes, so you're say so w going back to the point of having too many of those Not having enough of the other housing. That's his You're exactly right.

1:19:10All right, so Terry.

1:19:11All

1:19:12right. Go ahead, Terry.

1:19:15Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh next slide, please.

1:19:20Uh and then some of the perceived issues with multifamily that have been noted in the in the past. Higher density development overburdens public schools and other services um based on the research that we've been able to look at. There are fewer families with children that live in apartments uh and put less demand on schools and sing than single family homes. This does play out um in some of the things that we look at when we do s um the analysis for s with uh Pasco County schools and they provide their comments to us with regard

1:19:50to comprehensive plan amendments and whatnot. The compact nature of development requires less infrastructure. It's less land, so uh you're making use of existing infrastructure as much as as much as possible. You don't have to build as much to reach everything. Uh introducing higher density projects can actually increase the community's revenue and help pay for schools for students and low density for students that live in low density developments. Um Next slide.

1:20:17I have a question.

1:20:19Yes.

1:20:19Now does that hold true in class A apartments compared to regular

1:20:28My question I guess is you're saying that there are less kids that live in apartment complexes. Is that only for class A apartment complexes? Because on the nineteen thousand apartments that we have on the west side of Pasco, I can name numerous apartment complex that have Probably hundreds of kids in those apartments.

1:20:49Yeah, I think it's a um a statistic that really doesn't mention income level or the type of apartment, whether it's class A or class B or what have you. I think it's an across the board.

1:21:00Is there a way to find that out? Cause it sounds like they would be skewed if it's affordable housing. And I feel that you would have a lot more children in that area compared to a class A apartment.

1:21:13Um,

1:21:16generally speaking, when when the when the national studies uh put this information out there, usually averaging the situation. Um Uh to a large extent, you know The number of rooms in in a unit influences family size, or rather family sizes look for a certain number of unit rooms to have. And apartments tend to be limited to two and three bedrooms on the upper end. Um so that helps to uh the

1:21:47marketplace sort sort itself out in terms of who's locating where and in what kind of units.

1:21:53And I think they limit the number of people in a bedroom.

1:21:56Yes, many many apartment complexes do have limits in terms of the number of people per bedroom.

1:22:01Well you have the one apartment complex that has five their five five bedroom apartments.

1:22:06Those are unusual. Those ones on Rowan in fifty four. Yeah. That was built for congregate living and then

1:22:14turned into section eight housing as well. So in affordable housing.

1:22:19I Commissioner, I think we also have data from the school district that went into their fee, their impact fee that demonstrates multifamily we charge significantly less in the single family when it comes to school impacts. And and that would be from Pasco County's own data.

1:22:36So the concern is and I don't know if it's now or later that I should be mentioning this. The concern is It's great that we have all these class A apartments now. What's gonna happen in 30 years from now? Because we have 19,000 apartments on the west side, about 12,000 in the north. I think you said eight or nine thousand in the south, and about a thousand on the east. So it's great that we have all of these apartments. But when you sit back and you look at the list of the class A apartments, we've got Two on the west side along nineteen,

1:23:07one in seven springs, and then everything else is along fifty-four and fifty-six. So you really don't have many class A apartments on the west side of Pasco County, but you have more than about fifty percent of the apartments on the west side of Pasco County.

1:23:21I I think that Mr. Chairman M I think that there there will be a representative who can speak to the market. um more clearly than I can speak. So we

1:23:30really

1:23:31probably

1:23:31need

1:23:31to be so I I'm not discounting the questions, Commissioner. It's just I I'm probably not the the market expert to be able to answer you the precisely with regard to your questions, but there is somebody who who may be able to answer them.

1:23:47I'm just trying to figure out for in thirty years from now, are we gonna end up in the same situation with all these additional overcrowded or undercrowded apartments that turn into affordable housing? And how we can help now sub and I have a list of the apartment complexes and the crime rates for each individual apartment on the in the county. So I'm trying to look into that as well.

1:24:15Um i I'll quickly run through these slides so that I can finish my presentation and let the market uh analysts speak to the market itself. So in terms of higher density developments, um they're perceived as having lower property values, but uh national research indicates that there's no real discernible difference uh between developments. At times they show higher property value in cases of of mixed use. Um Densities. Also, higher density creates

1:24:45more traffic and parking problems. The national studies indicate that higher density developments generate less traffic than low density. Um development, making walking and public transit more feasible and and more to the point of what the what where multifamily is trying to locate around the infrastructure. that exists. Uh according to data from the National Personal Transportation Survey, doubling density decreases the vehicle miles traveled by 38%. And I think the the final statistic on the slide here is

1:25:16kind of important. The trip generation, a 10th edition of the ITE manual shows um 9.4 daily trips for single family detached. versus seven point three uh daily trips for multifamily. Um so Next slide.

1:25:33Um, another perceived issue with multifamily is that higher density leads to higher crime. It's not significantly different based on the national studies that that we've been looking at, especially if the multifamily is designed with eyes on the street. then there there's inc increased pedestrian activity, crime may actually be reduced. Um in terms of higher density develop a perceived issue being higher density development is environmentally more destructive than lower density, it's actually national studies are indicating that lower density development consumes

1:26:04more land uh for development because they have to sprawl out further due to the lower density. So it has has a much more a larger footprint in that sense. And then another perceived issue is that higher density housing is only for lower income households. um there is a rise and trend of apartment dwellers being higher income brackets, which I think the Um market analysts will be able to speak to um More definitively than I can.

1:26:36Mr. Chairman Mariano.

1:26:38Yes,

1:26:38sir.

1:26:38Mr.

1:26:39Mariano.

1:26:40So looking at that data, um, you know, we had Darrell LeClaire who built the Caroline Parkway. uh invited the Pasco EDC down here about ten years ago to go take a look at what he had done for uh constructing job development. And when he brought us down there, he then talked about Pasco County a little bit. And he said, you know, the problem with Pasco is you got a great asset. that you don't even capitalize on. And he was talking about US nineteen, he says Your elevations for building stuff two and three stories

1:27:10high, you don't get the densities you want. So people don't get the views you want to get a better. building that's built. Now Terry, for you to say that a I have a report saying the higher density housing is only for lower income households, but you got a a conflict of that. I'm gonna tell you if you go look at the west side of Pasco, go look at the apartments that were built, you know, 20, 30 years ago. And tell me That It doesn't aff it's not affected with lower income compared to higher income in other places. Uh,

1:27:40it's a big difference. As a matter of fact, on the west side, if as far as affordable housing goes, I think part of the reason we're struggling on the west side is you had all these people that were retirees built in two-bedroom, two-bath homes, sometimes three-bedroom, two-bath homes on the west side. And say as they retired, Uh as they passed on and there and and m more more people came in and the rental market got up. Everything in that whole area has gone down demographically. That's why you've seen everything moves elsewhere out of there because the demographics don't support. So, you

1:28:11know, you're you're you're trying to push this Apartment thing is not being a demographically challenged project or a situation. And I and I think it is. I think home ownership is a much better way to go, whether it be townhome, whether it be a condominium or whether or just single family homes, than compared to apartments. And to try to push that off another way as a demographic that's equal, I I don't think is uh Fourth right.

1:28:37So can I jump in on this? Good. Wait, I mean Only three o'clock. We have hours still. Uh So um I wanna take downtown New Port Richey for an example. Downtown Newport Ritchie struggled and struggled and struggled to be successful because it did not have density. and it was the introduction of the two apartment complexes One um that A

1:29:08commissioner's family member lives in. And one that my brother in law built um downtown that is really helping to revitalize that downtown corridor. And they need more apartments down there and more dancing. And frankly needs to be a mix of the R uh rental the the apartments because young professionals aren't buying anything. They want to rent. Um and then they need um town homes, but the but the success of downtown New Port Richey is gonna

1:29:38be finding ways to have density. in a close walkable proximity to those shops or a close golf court proximity. So um I so what he's saying on the left is that that's what people seem to think. But what is actually happening is what's on the right. And sometimes people don't really know what the classic defin definition of sprawl is. And Are you going to get into that in here? Because you've mentioned it, but I'm not sure you've defined

1:30:08it.

1:30:09Uh I was not planning on getting into the definition of sprawl. Um but What I'm what I'm illustrating on these slides is not that I'm trying to push an agenda. Yeah. It is merely to illustrate what common um ideas exist about multifamily and what national research is showing to us. So that that's all that I'm trying to do here. There's a perception about higher density housing being only for low-income

1:30:40households. And we we've looked at reports in multiple studies that indicate that uh it's not only for low-income housing. Certainly there is low-income housing that is apartment. um and there could be quite a bit of it. Um, but I think there's a there are demographic changes that are occurring within uh the country, within the state, within this region even. um that are moving toward Apartment dwelling. No matter the income bracket.

1:31:09Bye.

1:31:10Um And that's all that I'm I'm trying to illustrate with this slide here. Um Next slide please.

1:31:20Uh some of the remaining questions that were uh asked at the previous at a previous board meeting was that how much multifamily is needed in a community and what is the right balance between single family and multifamily as land uses. And on the right side I have what we think might be able to get us closer to understanding those questions. Um, you know, residential densities and mixtures of residential uses is not a one size fits all approach. And we have to be able to understand the residential market. In order to understand the

1:31:50fiscal impact associated with these types of land uses. Understanding that aspect of the marketplace will enable us to have a better understanding of what kind of densities are necessary to support transit functions, and not just transit, but all types of infrastructure, the type of water mains that might be needed, utility lines, et cetera. It's all it's all part of that urban service infrastructure. Um that that we often talk about in urban planning. And then also, you know, once

1:32:20you've been able to determine that, uh, what is the need in the marketplace, what is the need to support that need, um, then you can come back and start filling in and understand what kind of diversity of land use is. Are necessary beyond single family detached to create a balanced approach, a fiscally balanced approach for creating thriving communities. Um Next slide. Good

1:32:46Mariano? Yeah. Terry, let me ask you a question because I just I just wanted to look up the definition of apartment. Cause I know in the cities they they people can own apartments up there. Down here we don't consider that people own them. Usually they're just gonna be renting them. So an apartment can't be like a condo. The Harvard report data, does that show that it's all rental or is it a combination of ownership as well, like a condo?

1:33:09Yeah, the the Harvard report looked at um I remember this. It was a combination. Um i it was essentially looking at the subject it's looking at the subject of multifamily across the board. So it was looking at uh condominiums, it was looking at apartments, it did look at townhomes. Um there were portions of the report that's that focused on rental specifically, yes. Um in general there's a I think we

1:33:39all know that there's a distinction between rental uh the rental market and the market that is seeking to to uh own a home. uh own a property. So the Harvard report was kinda looking at it across the board.

1:33:54So so I I gather that you're really kind of muddying the waters between a rental market And then a multifamily market because they are significantly different, as you've just stated. And the way you're your data using as one source that's taken both of those together and you're really kind of highlighting. I think you're putting on a better light than what they really are.

1:34:17The n well

1:34:20In general, people ta in our code is no exception. Our comprehensive plan is not an exception to this either. But what anything greater than a single family detached unit is essentially lumped together in in a category known as multifamily. So it could be a single family attached row house or townhouse or duplex or whatever it might be called. all the ramp it up all the way to a twenty eight story sky rise. and uh the apartments that are or condos

1:34:50that are in such a building. And it's all kind of classified together. um in that category of multifamily. Um so I'm not trying to muddy the waters, but um the subject is a little difficult to parse and it's it's it's not an isolated matter to Pasco. This is something that happens across the country in in terms of how people view things beyond single family detached. Um But I I understand it's a difficult subject and and

1:35:20parsing it is there's a task to be done there. Um and and and we have suggested in previous workshops too that really we need we think that it may be better to start looking at a um a typology of land uses in terms of how multifamily shows up in the community. Um, so that you don't have something that goes from single family detached straight to apartment buildings. You have the the middle range of housing that exists. And where do those densities go

1:35:51and how do they look, right? We we we've talked about that as a as a as one way that we may be able to sort of untangle the multifamily knot. But that's for the right-of-way.

1:36:07Potentially in the future. Um

1:36:10I I'm gonna say as far as a discussion for the future, the future is now. And if we're gonna talk about multifamily, the type of ownership is part of multifamily, I think should be separated. Because if I'm gonna consider the apartments along Ridge Road compared to Miami Um Condominiums up and down that are multi-stories high. There's a big difference between the two, but you're kind of treating them the same. And I think it's something that, you know, if we if we haven't separated our code out the way others have, whether it be in the Northeast or even South Miami,

1:36:40then maybe we need to go take a look at that as being a separate thing, which we can look at to find out, okay, what fits where. And how do we want to go about it?

1:36:49Mr. Chairman Mariano. Yeah, sure. The problem is that from a land use standpoint and from the planning director's standpoint in this presentation, there shouldn't be a distinction about ownership. I have said to that to the board on numerous occasions, if you are talking about Land use. Ownership has no business in the conversation.

1:37:15Okay.

1:37:17If if I may, Mr. Chairman Mariano The future being now. Um there are some options to consider. Up um updating the comprehensive plan, doing flu amendments and calibrating the comprehensive plan is one option to look at the land use itself. The good news on that front is that the comprehensive plan update is actually commencing this month, actually tomorrow, Wednesday is the kickoff meeting on that. Um so there's going to be an effort that's

1:37:47that's going to be underway. Um land development code design and development standards and updates to that portion of our regulatory environment. That's uh tentative uh to our to spring of uh 2022. Um But the chapter five hundred phase two is actually beginning as soon as phase one is complete. And we are nearing completion of phase one. We're we are anticipating bringing phase one to the board. Uh probably in the April timeframe

1:38:18of this year. So phase two will likely begin as soon as um Phase one is approved by the by the Board of County Commissioners. Um potentially probably May, June of this year. Um in addition, some other options for consideration that ha um and th this has kind of been talked about in other parts of the region, which we'll get to, there's an I there are uh an option of moratorium, but it has to be contingent upon identification of of a problem. in order to make sure it is

1:38:48not arbitrary and discriminatory. Um it um one might consider it to be in a limited geography or or countywide. uh for the purpose of conducting market analyses, et cetera. uh determining the types of multifamily that are needed. Uh and then finally there's also the status quo, which would be a project by project. uh review of where multifamily is locating. Um next slide. And I just wanted to conclude and and show this last slide to

1:39:18give an idea of some of the things that are happening in other parts. of our region as well as the country itself. Um Newport Ritchie uh has a six-month uh moratorium to ensure compatibility with surrounding uh with the surrounding uh built environment and staff is creating design elements and and construction standards associated with that land use. Um it's applicable to multifamily of four or more units. Uh as a by

1:39:48way of example, on the other side of the country, Spokane Valley, Washington uh has a moratorium right now on on PUDs. With multifamily? Um more closer to home again in Claremont, Florida, there's a nine-month moratorium on new apartments. And in that case, there's uh to ensure more workforce housing and to enhance standards, locations, affordability, with the goal to lift restrictions of multifamily in certain areas to support more sustainable walkable areas. Um And

1:40:19then of course they're taking a look at, you know, what type of bonus credits can be included if workforce housing isn't is part of their project. Then back across the other end of the country in Bellingham, Washington, there's a one-year moratorium I multifamily outside of the multifamily zones in their community. And this, they're doing this to review and create changes to the zoning to correct the pattern of underdeveloped parcels. with d less density than the comprehensive plan intended. Um and then again, really

1:40:49close to home again is um the current conversation that's happening in the city of Tampa. Um, which we're currently watching right now and they have not yet come to a conclusion to determine whether or not they'll actually do a moratorium and what their rationale for that moratorium uh would be. So kind of going back to the previous slide for a second. Um That that about rounds out what some of what some options there what some options for consideration there would there could be for the for the board to to look into.

1:41:20Um I believe that completes my presentation. I know that there's other speakers, so I I'd I'd like to yield my floor.

1:41:27Okay, we'll come back to you if we have some questions and um Make sure we get everybody that the speaker so they can have their time. Uh this time Mark McBride.

1:41:39Good afternoon. Can you hear me?

1:41:42Yeah, sir.

1:41:43All right, great. Thank you. Well, um I just I've lived here in for 12 years and you know I've been very involved in our community. I've uh lived in two separate subdivisions, been involved with various school rezoning issues, moderate a very active and large social media group, and I'm also on the homeowners association board. But I kind of want to talk a little bit about these apartments because there are some misperceptions out there, I think, on our communities. And what we feel about apartments. First of all, we're

1:42:13not anti-apartments. We just don't want oversaturation of apartments. You know, there's been a lot of discussion here on what that means and the number of single-family homes and how they utilize schools, but I can tell you, office space and commercial space do not use the schools. They help fund the schools. And they also help sponsor athletic events. And so when we Shift these things away, we are creating an increased

1:42:44demand on our school district. And I know it was brought up at one of the last meetings that some of these apartments is only gonna put the school at 110% capacity or 101% capacity, and we have portables for kids. Right. You know, I'm a parent and my son was in the portable for three years and it's appalling. It's third world country classrooms. We can do better than that. It I realize the school district had no choice

1:43:14at the time, but we don't want to go back To our kids being in portables. And so we're at 101% capacity now. Then what happens when you have the land that's already zoned for apartments and they decide to build those apartments? This is gonna creep up real fast. And then you're gonna have the other developers that say, hey, I want this change. Do let them change. I'm gonna sue you if you don't allow me to change. And and this we're going down a slippery slope. You know, there's another

1:43:44misperception out there that we all live in $500,000 homes. And that's simply not the case, at least in the Greater Western Chapel area. You know, being involved with the school rezoning, I received a lot of data and I just looked up some data. 26.6% of the students at Wiregrass Ranch High School are on free or reduced lunches. 29.7 at John Long Middle School are on free or reduced lunches. So this isn't a statement about economics. This isn't a statement that we're all privileged

1:44:15people that don't want to allow people to infiltrate our community. That's wrong. We respect the diversity. We respect the communities that we have. We're just concerned that you are changing the footprint of our community. And it's this is gonna have great consequences for generations to come. When I first was married twenty seven years ago, I lived in a community that made these the same mistake we're about to make here. They allowed rezoning of apartments. They built luxury apartments. It was great. Things were

1:44:45great for the first decade. Then all of a sudden people decided to move on to the latest and greatest. These luxury apartments became capital starved. People they they didn't reinvest. The regular apartments had to cut their rates so low that they became Mecca for drug activity. And it became such a strain on the city that the city spent millions of dollars buying apartment complexes to convert them to office and commercial use. We're

1:45:15making a mistake that's gonna last a lifetime and We we have to be very, very cautious. Again, we have land that is zoned for apartments in some of these requests. It's literally just over a thousand feet away. And yet we're going to change a footprint for something instead of say, go buy that parcel that's already zoned for apartments. And and that's really what we're concerned about. You know, Pasco County's open spaces, vibrant places. Eventually the space is going to run out. And

1:45:45are we going to be left with the vibrant community that is the question? And so I just really ask that you take a hard look at this because the consequences are irreversible. And, you know, when you look at what the what the trend is in other cities, they're putting moratoriums on this and here we're just handing out meal tickets. Remember, the developer's main goal is to make money. And that is why they're doing this. They're certainly not doing this because they want to better or enrich in our community. We're the ones

1:46:16that are left here living it. And, you know, I can tell you with working on these school rezoning cases that Whenever these rezoning cases come up, people blame the county commissioners every single time. They keep approving these. And I We're at a point, I think, where people are gonna get very fed up and they're gonna start taking it out on the ballot box because we want our communities to be vibrant places. Absolutely. We want them to be socioeconomically balanced.

1:46:46I don't think that's the question here, but what we are doing is creating an imbalance. That's all I have. Thank you for your time. All right, thank you.

1:46:54Can I ask me a question?

1:46:56One question.

1:46:57Um well first ha hey, um thanks for taking the time to speak to us. But uh how long have you lived in Pasco County?

1:47:03Twelve years.

1:47:05And so um, you know, I was on the school board before I was on the county commission. And I can tell you that when you move to one of the fastest growing counties in America the school system is gonna be and the transportation system, those are the last to catch up because we don't build new schools until they can pretty much open full. So that's um that's part of the price we're paying for living in a uh fast growing community that everyone apparently wants to move

1:47:35to. Um Also I just just so you know, probably twenty-six percent free and reduced lunch is probably the lowest number in the whole county. I'm waiting to get uh numbers on that, but that is uh That's a really no number to have on free and reduce, so

1:47:53No.

1:47:53Just let me know. Hey,

1:47:55thank you. Talking about free and reduced lunch, the m I'm gonna say the majority of the schools on the west side of the county are Title I schools, which means 50% or more of all of our sh of all of these children are on free and reduced lunch. 30%.

1:48:13Yeah. Okay.

1:48:14Thank you, Mr. McRae. Thank you.

1:48:16Thank you. I don't think here. I think we got oh we've got

1:48:20our next speaker is uh Joel Two and there m may be others speaking along with him, I think.

1:48:26Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Uh this is Joel again. Can everyone hear me? Yeah

1:48:32sir.

1:48:33Thank you. Barbara Wilhite and I collectively represent a number of your property owners who are taxpaying citizens and also some multifamily developers who obviously are stakeholders. And uh based upon the discussion at the prior uh commission hearing when you scheduled this workshop, we thought it would be appropriate to ask our industry clients. to pay the cost of retaining an independent, qualified market consultant.

1:49:04to try to come up with actual data and analysis rather than speculation and conjecture. to provide better information, at all fairness, for you commissioners to make a fully informed decision as to where you think the policy of your county best should be directed. So they did that and they retained Leslie Deutsch, who is with John Burns Real Estate Consulting, a national marketing uh

1:49:34analyst firm. They have been used by Pasco County previously as the county's own consultants. So we assert that they have. credibility and expertise in the business. I'm going to turn this over to Leslie to make a presentation that she has prepared and provided to your staff. And she's going to go through that. I do ask respectfully if you would please allow her to actually deliver and complete her presentation so that there's continuity and

1:50:04logic and flow. And then And she will be more than happy to backtrack, answer any questions, respond to any challenge or argument or just uh different opinion, uh, because she's qualified and that's what she does. But please allow her to go through that if you would be kind enough to do that. Once she concludes, I'm gonna make a few brief concluding remarks on behalf of the stakeholders, because I think apart from Her analysis, uh, the discussion so far has raised, I think, some serious

1:50:34questions that we at least need to highlight. about uh what what is going on and what the real policy and the real concerns are. So with that, I turn it over to Ms. Deutsch. Leslie, if you're online, please introduce yourself and present.

1:50:50Okay. Thank you, Dill. Um I just wanted to ask about my slides. Did uh are they gonna go up on the board or do I Yeah, there you go. Thank you so much. Okay, so hello everyone. Thank you for having me. Um my name is Leslie Deutsch. I am a managing principal here at John Burns Real Estate Consulting. Uh, we are a nationally recognized real estate consulting firm. We have about 15 offices around the country. I manage all of the consulting um projects

1:51:21in the East Coast, and I also write our apartment. report nationally um and do all of our apartment forecasts. So I have been in this role for over about 15 years now. I spend my days and my nights travel around the state of Florida, native, um, but also up and down the southeast and the east coast. And our clients are a range of builders and developers and uh landowners really that are looking to build the the the appropriate product at the right price. So I have

1:51:51worked with many, many builders in Pasco County. I've worked with apartment developers. I've worked with some landowners in Pasco. I've watched Pasco grow from for the last decade now to a very quiet town to a very vibrant very vibrant area. So I was asked and and I just I want to reiterate that that we are a very independent firm. We are not brokers. We don't write on behalf of anyone. We take all the this analysis and and uh and numbers and put it together and come up with our own conclusions.

1:52:21And very rarely do will we change them for for any um builder, developer, et cetera. So um so here today what I what I was asked to do was to take a look at Pasco County, to look at the growth. um to look at the demographics, to look at the apartment market, and then really um to do what we do best is is really hone in on the demographics to understand what the future demand is going to be for apartment rentals in Pasco County. And I will take a step back and say that we do

1:52:51have a demographer on staff full time that does forecast um by market and by age and by income, the the demographic growth. And that's what we used here for each, really for every county across the country. So um this is the report I think that was presented to you. I I have um what we first did was look at the location of Pasco County. Clearly it is a very good apartment location given its access to all nearly all of Tampa. It has good schools, so renters want to live in

1:53:21good schools as well as homeowners. Um and and it continues to grow. And in order to continue to grow and see that growth, you need all types of housing uh for sale and for rent. Uh then I'll go into the demographics of Pasco County. I think it's one of the most interesting counties in the state of Florida. Is that it's a very, very wide mix of older residents and younger residents. And that mix really demands a wide variety of housing if you want to continue that growth. Um and then I looked into the apartment market, and I I will explain

1:53:52um the page that that was pointed out. It is only projects that were built since 2010. So we took a look at what the what the newer apartments and how were performing and to be perfectly honest they're almost fully occupied nearly all of them um so because of their high occupancy rates that's one indication that you really do have a lot of demand but on top of the current conditions what we did was we looked at the future conditions so we have a rental demand model Very detailed. We use it across

1:54:22the country. Um, we really use it for for we've used it really everywhere. Um, and what it does is it takes stock of everybody living in a county today and then forecast forward five years. And it does so by looking at their incomes and also looking at their ages. So then you can see what's really in demand. And what we did was say, all right, well, how many people People based on an income, a $50,000 income, which is about your median income in Pasco County, translates to $1,300 a month, which

1:54:52is a class A apartment rent. So how many people are there today and how fast will that grow over the next five years, which will give you a number of how many more units you're gonna need to really satisfy demand if you want to continue to grow. and have people to support all the industries that are that are planning other companies that are moving to Pasco and the new industries that you want to attract. So the next page please. So I'm going to start with the location. So what I

1:55:22did first, the next slide, please. I compared Pasco County, the main demographics of Pasco County, to the Tampa MSA as a whole. So the Tampa MSA includes Pasco, uh Hernando, Canellas, and Hillsboro counties. What's really interesting is that Pasco County is the third largest county after Hillsborough and Pinellas, but the demographics are obviously it the population's growing faster. Um on this chart, you can really see that the median age

1:55:53in Pasco County is 46 versus Tampa 43. That's reflecting your retirees. But you also have a slightly larger household size. So you do have some families in Casco and a growing number of families. What's really interesting is your median household income has really risen and and improved to about the Tampa MSA average, about 55,000. Um and the net worth is also a little higher. Primarily because of retirees. So so retirees don't come through in the income numbers, but they cut

1:56:23their their net worth comes through um with those numbers. So you see that there. Um Pesco has actually a smaller percentage of renter house occup excuse me, renter occupied housing units. Um and that's really because of the lack of uh of supply relative to what's the lack of availability relative to um to the Tampa MSA. Next page, please. So the next few slides that I'm going to go through are are really just an interesting look at the demographics

1:56:54and the location of Pasco. So I highlighted 75 and Sun Coast on there. And what it's showing is every dot on that map accounts for 10 jobs. So you can see that the now it it does not um it does not indicate whether it's a higher paying job or a lower paying job, but does represent a number I'm sorry, not jobs, employees. I I apologize. 10 employees. We don't do the the businesses because it, you know, one business could have 200 people. So these are the number of employees. So you can see the

1:57:24concentrations here along the highways and along the axis. I think that's really important because that's where you need that extra housing. But I just thought this was a good overview to understand where the jobs are in Pasco County. They are growing much faster in the Wesley Chapel and the Lakes area. New Port Richey, they've had the job centers there for quite some time. Zephyrhills, you can see that the concentration over there, mostly on the the more service-oriented jobs, but there are a

1:57:54number of jobs there. The next page please. Um Pop, this is the same chart. One dot is 20 people, but it shows the population density. And really, what it's highlighting here is that people tend to be living around there are a lot of people in the established areas of Pasco, but it's a growing number in the Wesley Chapel, Landelay, Zephyrhills, where there's availability of housing, and really where people want to live. Yeah. So you can really see that concentration

1:58:24and that's where a lot of the apartments tend to be located and tend to want to locate where the people are living today. Keep going, please. Next chart. The next chart shows your median household income. So this really depends. A lot of the higher end housing you can see in Westlake Chapel and even further north on 75. So this gives you a sense of where the higher income levels are located. The next slide. I'm gonna go through some of these. I can always come back. The median ages, this

1:58:54one's so interesting to me, and it really lends to um Pasco's diversification of age, is is that really um the the lighter, the darker the blue, the older the uh median age of the resident is. So you can really get a sense that there is a mix across Pasco, and it's really another reason to show um the need for for a A wide variety of housing. Next slide please. This is a similar slide. It shows the average household size. So you can see the more families in the darker

1:59:26purple areas and the retirees along the coast in the lighter purple areas. But really, the families, what we're seeing a lot with the apartments is the families are using them as a stepping stone to eventually live in Pasco County. And that's a really important thing because people like to try out a place before they decide decide to to purchase a home. So the apartments are really been that um has have served dual purposes for people that are choosing to rent, but also people that are about to um to buy a home or considering

1:59:56it. Uh the next slide, please. Um this is the next one. Sorry. I divide my sections up. Um this chart didn't come up, but it this is the this is just a highlight of the apartments that have been delivered since 2010. So these are only the newer apartments in Pasco County. And the reason I did this is just to understand, have you oversupplied on the newer, uh more expensive apartments, if you will? So we took all of these different apartments um and and then on the next slide. And

2:00:26there's actually been about 6,000 of them delivered since 2010. The next slide shows just some highlights of some of the Class A product that has been delivered. But on the next slide, what you can see is I took all of those 6,000 units, looked up the occupancy rates of each and every one of them. And the dark blue line here shows you that Pasco County's Class A market has a 96.2% occupancy rate. And most apartment developers

2:00:57will tell you, and owners, I'm sorry, will tell you that about 95%. Is full occupancy. You're going to have to always have a few units that are turning over. So Pasco County's Class A market has a higher occupancy rate than Tampa class A market as a whole. So I compared it to the projects built since 2010 in Tampa. So really showing you the strong demand for class A in Pasco County. And the growth despite all the new supply that's hit the market. Um, on the next slide, we do

2:01:27the same comparison, but show it through rents. And and this is really interesting. You can see the rise in rents in Pasco County. That's the blue line on the bottom. But Pasco still remains relatively affordable to Tampa, which is also a reason that a lot of um a lot of people, young professionals and even retirees, are moving. to the area to to rent there. The apartments are just as well done and just as nice. They happen to be a little bit less expensive.

2:01:54Um, okay, let's keep going. I'm gonna move into the apartment demand. The next slide highlights our demand model. Um I this is this is one of my favorite project the favorite types of demand to look at. What you can see here is in 2020, if you follow my math, the total number of renter households today in Pasco County is about 59,547 people that are renting some type of unit in Pasco. We expect that to grow to about 67,000,

2:02:2468,000, you know, rounded by 2025. But if you and that growth, if you're following across, is a total of 8,400 households and an annual growth of about 1,700. I'm just rounding here. Then what we do is we divide the entire population of renters by income level. So what that's telling me is those with incomes above 50,000, I'm cutting that 59,000 number. Less than half almost. Um, and

2:02:55really only about twenty-three thousand people can afford thirteen hundred dollars a month. So, so now I'm really focused in on do we need more class A rental uh properties? Because do we need people, do we have people that can afford that? We've got 23,000 people that can afford it, and we expect that number to grow by about 5380 over the next five years. So the big question is you really need another 5380 units to

2:03:25satisfy what could be the growth in demand. And I and I will caveat this model with a number of things. This model looks at incomes. Now I mentioned earlier that retirees don't have an income. So it is undercounting the number of retirees that would rent. They have a higher net worth, they might own a house or they might have savings, but no income. So this model is conservative in its numbers. It also doesn't reflect anyone that might downsize from a home to a rental community. This is just

2:03:55population growth, is all I'm looking at. So I I just want to reiterate that this is a conservative number. So we expect about a thousand people each year to want to have a class A apartment, if you will, as defined by $1,300 a month in Pasco County. So this gives you a sense of the of the future demand. So I do want to just reiterate that it's about 53, 80 units that would be needed to satisfy just the population growth

2:04:25over the next five years. Um And and that's where we came to in terms of what's needed um for Pasco County. If you if you go to the next slide or two. I thought, and this has come up in the conversations. I've been listening to the conversations. I thought it was important to take a step back to talk about renters because the renter population, and we do a lot of demographic research, has changed dramatically in the US over the last decade, really. And I put this on here because we

2:04:55we trademarked a term called serban. And serving describes Pasco County to a T. In fact, you all I took this and ran with it a couple years ago and put it in their emerging trends report. But Surban is not an urban area and not a pure suburban sprawl area. It's an area where a lot of people want to move these days. They don't want to live in the expensive urban markets, but they want to live in a suburbs but have a little bit of a feel of urban. They can either And I highlighted some things on this graph.

2:05:26You have slightly better schools, you have lower crime than urban areas. You've got some kind of walkability. You've got some vibrant restaurants, a lower than lower price than an urban area, and public transportation, which harder to find in Florida, I must admit, but we're all working on it. So these urban areas are the hotspots across the country. And and when I do these national presentations, I'm I'm pointing to areas like Alpharetta in Atlanta and and uptown Southend in Charlotte. These

2:05:56are the markets that people are moving to. And they're not moving there permanently always, but they're moving a lot of them want to rent. So these rents get higher premiums. Um homes get higher premiums if they're walkable, but it's a little harder. But this is an argument for some density in in Suburban markets, because this is really the trend of the future. And what we've seen is really the growth prospect of where people are moving. Uh next slide, please. Uh we did a survey across the country and asked people

2:06:26where they would like to live. I think this is really interesting. It's just color-coded by age, and the ages are on the bottom. You would expect the young people to want to live in these servant environments, but really, and that is true, right? These are people less than 30 years old, 52% of them chose serving. Um, but then look at the other end of the spectrum. I mean, this defines Pasco County to a tea. It's got the young as well as the older. And the the older also want to live in these turban environments. And this is a huge change from decades past.

2:06:57This is a new retiree and a new empty nester that wants to live in this sort of vibrant area where you can walk to a grocery store or walk to uh a Starbucks or what have you. And the next slide, please. Um and I just I want to bring it back to prove these numbers. Um some of these sk came a little off, but what this is showing you. Um This is the rentership rate by age. So you can see the low down here. And I'll tell the top line is the 25 to 29-year-olds.

2:07:27Obviously, those are the renters. The green and the orange on the bottom is the 35 to 39-year-olds. And I have a full report here that shows the delayed milestones of a lot of 30 to 30 plus year olds. They're getting married later, they're leaving their house later. Or they um they're having children later. And what does that mean? Is that they're more inclined to rent before they really settle down. So you can see the general pattern of growth. Um, I had it covered up. If you see the dip coming in 2020, that is a COVID dip.

2:07:58Um, the census admits their numbers are no good. Uh I just want to point that out. Um, but those are the official numbers. We have talked to the Census Bureau and they have admitted that. They were forced to to put out a number. They know it's not right. So please ignore the dip. I had it covered up, didn't show in the in the presentation. But really, what I want you to focus on here is the growth in the rentership. And if you go to the next slide, the same is true for the older Americans. And this is so important and really shocking

2:08:28information. But since 2005, the bottom line is 65 to 69-year-olds, the green line is 60 to 64, and the blue is 55 to 59. Look at the rise in rentership rates. And this is just a complete break from past. Renting is not considered a bad thing anymore. It's not considered, oh, you're a renter, you don't have enough money. It's a choice. And it's a choice by a lot of empty nesters. They want to live near their kids. You're really supplying some rental space

2:08:58that you know they their kids and they want to live near their grandkids. Um, and there's really this. This movement here. And Pasco, the demographics, the location, and everything about it really speaks to this. Is as these families move in, you're gonna have a lot of people that want to live close to their grandkids. And this is reflected in the national numbers, but also you want to have the space for them to live, you know, not permanently, but for a couple of years while their grandkids are growing up. So I just wanted to bring in some national data. to kind of back the

2:09:28fact that there are more renters than there used to be, um, that there's different different demographics of renting than there was before, and that Pasco County, um, shown by our demand model, is going to need um over uh was over 5,000 more units over the next five years just to account for those that can afford to live in class A. And with that, I believe I'll stop talking and I'll take questions. If anyone has them, feel free.

2:09:56Okay, any questions?

2:09:58I don't really have a question. I just have a statement. I mean, you mentioned earlier about the 2010 or 20, whatever other study, but I have a I have a list. And this is just again for the record for my fellow commissioners and whoever's watching at home. Is that on your class A apartment communities map and inventory? I am actually have a list and I'll put it up in a little while. You'll see it. I'm looking at one, two, three, four, five, six, seven, eight. That aren't listed on there, and you're stating 2010 to 2020, some of those will were built between that time. So

2:10:28just so you know that um you know, not telling you you're wrong, but um those aren't included. So for whatever reason, those weren't included. That's quite a few that weren't included in your study, so you know. It's it's the truth. It's a fact. Yeah. Ms. Turkey?

2:10:47Well I th I thought that was an excellent presentation and I um spent A good part of the day the other day listening to the ULI Trends Conference. I don't know if anyone else Followed that. Yeah. And so Mr. Balls, you and I both heard the presentation on uh apartments and the um the and Pasco and the um exactly what this this young lady is saying. Um and I I want to stress that walkability part of what you're saying. And I also just got another report.

2:11:18I don't remember who it was from, about how important that is and and commercial development as well. So um People want to have a sense of place and they wanna be able to get out and walk about and um Uh I just agree with everything you're saying here and um I I think we're gonna see a demand for a while and I I just hope to send some of it. over to the nineteenth and get um get some of these

2:11:49going on our side because you know we don't have we haven't received one new restaurant like the Wesley Chapel area has and my guess Is that's uh well what they're telling me is we don't have the density over there in Trinity like they have over here. So There's you know You wanna have the malls? You wanna have the highway close by? You wanna have the community college close by, you want your hospitals close by, you're gonna have density close by and I I think that's

2:12:19just classic with I would guess, but Um

2:12:24But who's one of the things that we're talking about?

2:12:25So so we talk about class A apartments. Is that the only kind of rental that's built, pretty much? Is that Just kind of curious about that.

2:12:33No, no. 'Cause we were talking about new construction coming in. Um but the occupancy rates in Pasco are are very high. Um so so they're really across the board because there's a whole other argument I could do here for for affordable housing, right? And and then

2:12:54There there is. There there this was just very, very focused on on new construction, right? On the the and new construction is expensive. Um, but there also is a is a need for for affordable housing as well. I would I would argue that a lot of the older apartments are um like you were mentioning, they are almost overcrowded because people are looking for affordability as well. So so we can do the the same demand model where I only focused on the $1300 a month above, I can do $1,300 and below. And there's still even more demand

2:13:24on that side. So I agree with you. There there's there's a there's a lot of growth in Pasco and it has to be it has to unless it's going to stop, unless you want it to stop, you need to have housing to to help to solve that growth, to help the growth. Yeah,

2:13:39and I'd love to talk to you sometime about doing something like this on the workforce housing side. Um but thank you very much. I'm I'm glad that we got

2:13:49Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um, per the expected growth rate that you had went over, at this point we're not going to be able to meet the me needs of the Pasco residents pertaining to the numbers that you're actually providing. Now, I don't know if you have accessibility 'Cause I know earlier we were talking about the number of children that are living in apartments and it just seems that the class A apartments have less kids than the other apartments of the nineteen thousand apartments that we have on the west side of the county because a lot of them

2:14:19have turned to that affordable housing.

2:14:23Yeah, that is true. Um a lot of the newer projects don't have as many three bedroom units. Um I and I don't I honestly don't know if that's that's zoning or choice of the developers. That's I think it's

2:14:36about a third, a third, and a third.

2:14:37Yeah, so it it tends to so this so you're right. The older projects tend to have larger units and and more bedrooms. So but they also you know tend to be looking for more space and more space costs more money. So you're right. I there's there's other options for uh for multifamily housing for rentals for families. Um so that's a that's another conversation as well, but the classic kind of three or four story mid-rise. typical apartment usually has a smaller size

2:15:07unit and it's really to bring the rental rate down. Um so I I think that's why you don't see as many families. It's just a space issue more than anything.

2:15:17And then do you have any suggestions to help pre plan for twenty to thirty years from now for when these apartments do turn into affordable housing? 'Cause that's what it seems like has happened on the west side of the county.

2:15:29Yeah, I um Yes, I I don't I don't see that as I yes, that that has happened in some areas. I think because a lot of these new apartments are on these major corridors that go down to Tampa, they're gonna they're gonna not necessarily turn into affordable housing. Um I don't I don't see that quite as happening. The access from from the east, the west side, sorry, live on the east coast, the access from the west side is a little bit harder and A lot of the giant job centers and the big commuting patterns really follow

2:16:00Sun Coast in 75. So I really do think that there's gonna be a very long-term trend. The other thing I will say is I talked a little bit about the demographics and the changing demographics. 20 years ago, you rented because you had to rent. And you were kind of, there was a perception issue with renters. Now it's a renter by choice, and it's become a much more popular choice by a lot of young and older and everyone in between. So I'm not sure that same trend of

2:16:30kind of falling into disrepair is going to happen again. The demand for apartments has really risen over the last year, last couple of years, really due to the changing demographic. So I don't know if it's gonna I don't I wouldn't say it's gonna follow that same. Yeah.

2:16:45Thank you.

2:16:46Mr. Chairman, I I have a question. Since you've mentioned you've done a lot of studies and and know this area well, do you do you know West Shore Boulevard very well? Yes. Okay. So back in the nineties, um, you're probably aware that they really built up West Shore with apartment complexes, um, mostly on, I'm gonna say that would be what the south side of Gandhi, if I'm not correct. Is that right? South side of Gandhi, a lot. And then you had it and the north side as well. Um, you

2:17:16know, you have like the cove apartments and such. So they started building them up and they're coming up left and right. I know that because the first time I moved to Tampa, I lived in Heron Point. I was twenty four years old or whatever, working working in Tampa. Um And that's where I lived. And then what I saw happen throughout the years were Quite a few of them. Either go downhill or Georgetown apartments, which was right on the bay. Right on the bay. That site is still

2:17:46there. It's it's a dilapidated site. you know, got overrun by the bright, shiny and new. They couldn't keep up with the Joneses per se. They couldn't handle the amount of influx of apartments along West Shore And they deteriorated, and it it took a long time. They stopped renting because they weren't able to keep up with those apartments anymore. You know, they they couldn't maintain 'em anymore because they weren't getting the amount of renters there to maintain the apartments eventually, many years

2:18:16later. They actually demoed it, um, but it's still not cleared and not clean and cleared up and that's been what? fifteen years twenty or at least since they've done that. So, you know, what that is a possibility because I've seen that's a perfect example of it happening because they were packed on top of each other. And they still are. You know.

2:18:38Yeah, but I would also argue since the nineteen nineties, West Shore has become sort of the main it took all the office demand from downtown Tampa and became sort of the mate the largest office center of all of Tampa. And a lot of that reasoning was because there was housing for people right there. So I

2:18:56But how could it keep up?

2:19:00Sorry.

2:19:01They didn't keep up. So yes, there was demand But w there was an oversaturation with apartments and the other ones could not keep up. That's why we're seeing what we see there today.

2:19:12Y yes, but but it it is a different world to I mean there is an entire investment class now that are buying value add properties and putting tons of money into it and bringing them up to up to code and bringing them up to demand. So there's much more

2:19:26but Those th those were so you know Heron Point and some of the other ones are perfect examples of class A um apartment complexes. Very beautiful pool, resort side pool, in indoor racquetball courts, um, air conditioned racquetball courts at gyms. And uh so my point is yes, those are very nice. We're not talking about and I don't and again, I w I don't want to get off subject here and talk about Um Sorry I'm looking at my notes.

2:19:55Um don't want to talk, you know, about income and classes and things like that. That's not That's the last thing we need I think we should even get into and have a conversation about. The fact was is there was a a supply and demand issue. The supply

2:20:12took over the demand. And some of 'em periled. And what we don't want to happen is that some you know, we came in peril and perish, I said. And we do not want that to happen in this area. And that there lies my fear, and that lies the fear of many people in the community, we're gonna see that same trend happen.

2:20:32I I see where you're coming from. I would argue though that that trend also happens on the foresale side. If if you know there's

2:20:40on the white side on the what side?

2:20:41On the foresale, on the housing side. Right. There are

2:20:44we're not talking about houses. We're talking about apartments though. That's the thing. That our subject matter is apartments right now. And that we're talking about the apartments being built in the amount of them being built. So I don't we're not going to talk about houses. If we want to talk about houses, we'll bring that up another time.

2:20:58Okay. Yeah.

2:21:01Okay. Uh Jack Mariano, do you want to say something?

2:21:06I don't see him on the board. I don't know if you got a little bit of a little bit of a little second.

2:21:09Yeah, so something that you said was very interesting to me as well. And you said that um some of the uh uh that the that these are are very attractive for um young skilled workers, educated workers, which I think is one of the selling points for us that helps us attract businesses here. And I think that's something else that was said on the ULI. Um uh Trends conference with the national experts that businesses the two

2:21:40things that What two important things that people are looking for is one quality of life when a business is moving. 'Cause they can move anywhere. Is the quality of life you o and the and the Availability of skilled workforce. Which is one of the reasons why I spend so much time in workforce training. But to have these concentrations of of of workers is a benefit for us when we try and recruit

2:22:10companies here. In my opinion. Um I do have a question. So I 'cause I I can understand where there comes a point when you have too much. And and so what is that number? Because you know, it's a w you know, we have responsibility to have a balance. And so I I don't know if anyone's told me yet what that number is. And um and what happens if you don't have enough what enough rental

2:22:40housing in a community. What's the downside for that?

2:22:44So I I think that's a good question. I I try it It's it's an elusive number. I try to quantify with enough would be 500 three 5,380 units over the next five years. I I fully admit it's a model, so models can be models. That's probably a slightly conservative number. Um, but I I will tell you I've done a lot of work with landowners who who want You know, who want a lot of businesses and want a lot of retail, but you need the the ha the rooftops first before all of that comes. So

2:23:14so like you had mentioned earlier, you you need people before you get the businesses. You can't get the businesses before the people. So so you have this huge opportunity that uh you are a very attractive area. You're getting new businesses coming in. We're we're monitoring, you know, seeing the Amazon's coming. In, we're seeing the hospitals being built. All these businesses are looking towards Pasco, but you're going to need the the housing. And it's it's not only rental housing, but rental housing plays a big role in it because a lot of people don't want

2:23:44to buy a house just yet. They're they're more mobile than they used to be. They might want to work in this job for a couple years and then move. But they're they're still, you know, taxpayers and they still add to the value. Value of the area. But I think it's very important that yes, it's about 5380 is the number. It could be a little more, it could be a little less. That's probably a conservative number. But um but if you right now you don't quite have enough because you're completely fully occupied. And the truth is that the housing market is is

2:24:14going gangbusters as well, and it's getting very, very expensive. So rental housing does offer an alternative to that. So and and we do expect home prices to really rise over the next five years pretty rapidly, double digits, um, which is you know, you're kind of running out of lots. We've had a great experience with the pandemic, with people, well, that's I shouldn't say it like that, but the housing market has had a great experience with really a a you know a rise in prices and a rise in demand. And And you're going to need more, more rental

2:24:44units to accommodate that because you're going to run out of lots and they're going to become more expensive. So I think it's a mix.

2:24:51So what what I I think I've seen a new we had a our family had some property here and we held on to it and the market you know, went over us into Hernando County. Um and so people would look to Hernando County because it's cheaper. And um And so then we have all the traffic of the Hernando commuters. coming through Brasco County to get to the jobs on Hillsborough. I mean so so if you don't have the demand I agree. Um

2:25:22does that mean that um when people are looking for a certain price point, they may keep moving

2:25:29Y yes. So it's it's interesting. A Hernando would be sort of the next frontier, but but also because Hillsboro has kind of slowed down their development and they've run out of a bit of land. I mean, I I know we're in Tampa, but if you look at what's happening in Manatee County right now, that's exactly what's happening, is that the growth there is just unbelievable. And and it's really because the the developers and the the people have kind of run out of space in Hillsborough. So I I y you see that right just south of you. So I I would expect the exact same thing

2:25:59to happen. Um or they would just or the growth would go further south to manatee. So I I I I agree. I think or you know, I guess you could go you could go east as well. Um, but but you're right, that's what happens is that when you kind of run out of that um attainable prices and and land and and inventory, the the growth does go elsewhere.

2:26:22So I have some friends who um both just retired last year. Um they sold their almost uh well, probably a million dollar house uh in Gulf Harbors and they are renting houses um Now it slowed down a little bit because of the pandemic, but they rented a house in Coast in uh Let's see. Um, Playa Del Carmen, I think that's the Yucatan. I'm not sure what country that that is. Um but they wr they rented down there for three months, now they're back here for three and

2:26:52then they're going someone else for three. for three. So that's an example of uh You know, an interesting rental user. And plus I know a lot of people are selling their houses at this high time in the market and renting, just so they can go ahead and get out of their house now. So it's a interesting uh time we're in.

2:27:11Yeah, and you find seniors that are downsizing from big homes into some and they might go in an apartment until they decide where they want to build their home. So that's that's part of it. Great report. Lastly, I I enjoyed listening to it and I know we all got have gained something from that report. So Yeah. Uh from that report. I don't see we're overrun with apartments. It might seem that way but

2:27:35Yeah, that was my question.

2:27:36Maybe because of the traffic and and because our infrastructure is lagging behind all the building with the homes and and uh schools and things like that are lagging in behind until the infrastructure, the roads get built out to where it handles all the traffic. Cause right now we got diversion divining that is running behind. Excuse me. That's gonna remove traffic. We're gonna have um overpass interchange coming in that's gonna spread out traffic. So the area we're talking about. is

2:28:06gonna be relieved some of that traffic 'cause it's gonna spread it out because a new anterchange and new roadways were doing the works right now building. So Uh it makes sense what you what you're telling us. So

2:28:18Mr. Chairman Mariano.

2:28:19Yes, Ms. Fitzpatrick.

2:28:21Thank you. Um, I do like the idea with the servant Area, I think you called it. Um, so I was looking, is there a specific percentage of apartments that there should be per person, per household, per community, per

2:28:37area?

2:28:40Uh I'm trying to think of the answer to that. I I you know, I I think the average rentership rate, well, I can look at Tampa. Um, in Tampa it's about 32%. I shouldn't know the US number off the

2:28:54departments.

2:28:55Uh uh rentals. Rentals. Thirty-two percent of the population in Tampa rents. Now that number in Pasco is twenty-four, twenty-five percent, but that also has to do with Uh you know, the the amount of of of inventory available. So I think Tampa, the MSA on on average is a good proxy. I think the the US number is, I should know this, and I I think it's 36% because I think the homeownership rate's 64%. So I think it's 36%, a

2:29:25little bit higher. Um it's it's probably a little lower in Tampa as it should be in Casco, because relatively speaking, your housing is more affordable. You know, in markets like New York. York City, you have a much higher rentership rate or or San Francisco. So 25 is relatively low. I would probably, you know, look more towards that 32%, but it will vary. I I it's a good question. I I don't know the exact answer, but I think the Tampa MSA is a good proxy.

2:29:53What did you say the number of apartments that we did have in Pasco? Fifty nine thousand?

2:29:59Or it's just renter households. Oh, I only looked at the oh sorry. The this the renter households. Hold on one second. I gotta pull that up. 59,000 renter households, yes.

2:30:09What about apartments?

2:30:10Was it about 50,000 or Does that include a parts? Did you mean the market rate once? Oh just apartments. Oh, I can look that up. I don't have that number off the top of my head. It it it varies. It it's these are Yeah to two

2:30:28hundred. So we have we're at about a thirty three percent rental right now of availability. 'Cause the you said there's about sixty thousand rentals and we have about two hundred thousand households in Pasco. So we're at about a thirty three percent rental capacity.

2:30:44Well some of those might be a little bit more than a little bit. Well, where how you doing that math?

2:30:48Um sixty thousand renters.

2:30:52But I didn't know how many households. Yeah. She's she's

2:30:54done her bath, right?

2:30:58I rounded it to two hundred thousand. So sixty thousand over two hundred thousand, and I just said about a third. 'Cause six goes into about eighteen.

2:31:07So um when you do your get those numbers, are you getting those numbers from like the property appraisers who don't have homestead exemptions on them?

2:31:15No, these are census numbers. So

2:31:17I um the

2:31:19rendership numbers are census numbers.

2:31:22Yeah, not you know, that's interesting. It's the first 2020s numbers we're seeing.

2:31:26Um DC doesn't have twenty twenty numbers.

2:31:28So

2:31:28we have available

2:31:29about

2:31:30thirty percent available rental properties.

2:31:33Look at her look at her chart. Yeah. We don't have twenty twenty numbers.

2:31:36The uh the these numbers are our ESRI is is forecasting forward twenty nineteen to twenty twenty. So it's census numbers in twenty

2:31:44nineteen. Yeah, we don't have to. Mr. Chairman M Let me ask one more thing because I know we need to go and I everybody has wants to say something. I have a whole presentation as well. So You one of the things you m mentioned earlier was that you said there was a need. There was a need for more apartments because you need people to be here for the jobs. Now I came here in 2014. And One of the biggest

2:32:15issues that constantly came up, and I'm so glad we've been working on it as a board and along with our EDC was how many people, and it continues to be, how many people leave Pasco County every day to go to Hillsboro County to work. Okay. There are still or more people leaving to work outside of the county than live in the county. There's no So we don't i i it saying that we don't have enough housing

2:32:45for Our amount of residents that are employed in Pasco County is is uh off by probably about forty point forty to fifty-five percent. Um, because that many people leave every day. Oh, Commissioner Oakley, you made a statement earlier at reference, I'm gonna go back to it again about Wiregrass, for example. Oh, the mall at Wiregrass. There needs to be more apartments for those people there. Well, those are 10 to 12. Well, I understand, but there's if you what tell me what's there besides retail

2:33:16right now. At the current at the current right now what's out there.

2:33:19I'm talking about a mall. I'm talking about Wiregrass as a development.

2:33:25Right. So what other the my question is what other jobs there

2:33:28you got the hospital there, you a lot of other things there. A lot of

2:33:31medical

2:33:32facilities.

2:33:33Yeah, so you've got You have the hospital. Yeah, they they've they there's plenty of housing for 'em. Um I mean I'm So retail can't afford the apartments they're talking about. They're talking about class A apartments. So if you have a ten to twelve dollar an hour retail job, you can't do that. And there's no shortage for

2:33:53some of them some of them could, but there's

2:33:55there's no if you team up with other people. Yeah, you can. But there's no shortage. Of housing because Even pre COVID. If you were I knew heck, I know I can't tell you how many high school and college kids can it find jobs. At the mall. There was no openings. There was no openings. So if we use that as an example, there's not a shortage of apartments for the amount of people that are employed within that area.

2:34:22I'm I think you're wrong.

2:34:24I normally

2:34:25I've got a a friend who uh owned a restaurant kind of thing and and um he sold it.

2:34:32And

2:34:32uh they cannot find a place to live.

2:34:35Wait, Wiregrass?

2:34:35No, on

2:34:37we're talking about one specific area right now. I'm referring to one area.

2:34:40So if I were to look up on Zillow, I could find a whole lot of places to live um to rent right now.

2:34:47No, that's not that wasn't the point. The point was there's an there's enough people living in the area when it comes to supply and demand to meet the job needs currently. Well

2:34:57how do you know that? So we should

2:34:58have

2:35:02So we should have about thirty percent of rental homes available. And you said we should have Um twenty-four to twenty people we have about twenty-four to twenty-five percent of rentals right now. And we shouldn't have we have thirty percent available of rental properties. Now, would the best area for an apartment complex be recommended? near an obviously you need the infrastructure, but would you where would you want to have an apartment instead of housing?

2:35:35Armadora housing.

2:35:37Instead of having an apartment complex, where would you want housing? Like a new housing.

2:35:41You're asking Leslie that? Yes. Hmm?

2:35:44Yes.

2:35:44Okay.

2:35:45Leslie.

2:35:46Ask you, Leslie.

2:35:48So where would you best recommend an apartment complex over a subdivision? Would it just be next to an a new business. Obviously you want the roadways roadways and infrastructure, but would you r rather be closer to the new business coming in or where would you recommend an apartment over a subdivision?

2:36:08Because of the density typically associated with an apartment complex, I think you would recommend it near highways and access to, you know, access to roads. So um now. The truth is there is there is argument to have apartments in more suburban areas as well. It just really depends on the product. But but generally speaking, I would say access to employment to roads Public transportation, I roll my eyes, that's always a hard one, especially in Florida, but that's what you would want, right? You would want it so people can

2:36:39not have to use or or have more than one car. Um, so just to keep the density issues down. So I there's not a perfect spot for apartments, but I would say I would definitely lean towards um the access points to the roads and highways and and And transportation.

2:36:59Okay, then

2:37:00we got some more speakers.

2:37:01Yeah, I know. I yeah. So oh we have more p speakers

2:37:04like

2:37:05citizens or we have people in the industry.

2:37:07I think Joel has something probably to say and he may have somebody else to speak.

2:37:11Okay. So question for you. When you did your your report and your study, and this is one of the things that I talk about on a regular basis. Nobody here, including myself, is against departments. Never said that. The problem is getting to the point where you're oversaturated. And we the issue myself and many of the constituents and a lot of people in the business community in this area. Um which I'm sure I'll be speaking a little louder in the coming months. Um

2:37:40We have so many current Parcels. that have the entitlement to build more. So I asked you, did you take that into consideration? Because that's the big, big issue. So we think about the amount of entitled properties in the area that have the entitlements have the zoning to build apartments. Why do we continue? And our issue is we continue to change zoning on parcels when we already have enough inventory to meet the demand that you just stated. And there's a plethora

2:38:11of them. We just talked about Like Wiregrass for example, Wiregrass plan and I say that because these master plan communities Just as you stated earlier, Plan well. And they're there. They're the parcels are there ready to be developed tomorrow. There's a number of them. Like in the back of Simon Oakes, for example, there's one right now. that has the entitlements. MetaPoint has multiple properties that have the entitlements between all four of the Meta Points. And um if you go down to some 54 or 56, there's a number of them too. So

2:38:41again, I continue with that's my biggest issue. It's not The amount that is being built per se. I mean I mean it is an issue for me, but When we keep doing this, and we keep we're gonna run into that point soon because these guys already have the entitlements. We keep rezoning this land and they're and and they're they're gonna be kind of left out in the cold too. So they worked through the process. They did good planning, they planned through the years. They it may have been the eighties, nineties, two thousands, whatever it

2:39:11is, but as if this board continues to rezone all these parcels It's done. And and then we're losing. So you talked about jobs earlier too. Well, guess what? If we keep rezoning these other properties, there's not going to be many places left to have jobs because you're not going to have any parcels, land parcels to build on. And then what happens? So did you look at all the properties that have that have current that have the zoning or entitlements for the future when

2:39:41you looked at your study?

2:39:44No, I did not. That wasn't part of the study. I did not do that.

2:39:47All right, thank you.

2:39:48Okay.

2:39:49Mr. Chairman Mariano. Oh, there's Jack, he came back.

2:39:53Oh Jack? Yeah, I've been here.

2:39:55I

2:39:55was just a coffee a while ago, but I didn't hear you ask me. So

2:39:59by the time go in the conversation gets started. But um you know, Commissioner Moore, you bring up good points as far as like what we what we need here. And and you you brought up the point, how many people are in the county are leaving to go back and forth? Now I don't know what the zonings are with some of these properties. Could they have been industrial? Could they have been job creators? But we need to focus on the job creators here as well coming up. Um And I think it's a it's it's a port uh an important aspect. If we've got all the zonings and like I say, we we know the metal points, they got a bunch of apartments that they're

2:40:29gonna be coming up. They're already zoned. I'm really scared that we don't know. what our supply could be if everything was going to get built up. And if we're gonna take very good property that could have been You know, medical facilities are and we're going to convert those to apartments because the demands there for a guy who wants to sell a piece of property. We're going to watch that. We already set a good balance that's out there, but we need to know what that balance is before we got start allowing more and more of these things to get rezoned.

2:41:03Good point. Yeah. Anything

2:41:07else, Jack?

2:41:11Okay, Leslie, thank you for all that uh your report. Very good. Um we'll go back to uh Joel to see if he has some words to say to us or if he's got someone else to speak.

2:41:23Uh, Mr. Chairman, thank you. I just have a few concluding points. We're not uh we're not going to present another speaker. I think Ms. Deutsch has uh has really covered the market analysis that she was asked to review, but From our stakeholders, my my concluding car comments are are six points. Uh number one. As Mr. Steinsneider pointed out at the beginning, I don't know where this is headed from the land use regulation standpoint, but I respectfully

2:41:54submit that any effort by land use regulations to distinguish between rental versus owned housing is going to be uh frowned upon under state and federal fair housing laws and discrimination against rental versus owned housing. There's a lot of law out there on that. And as a legislative body, I I just not sure it's prudent for you to go down that path. And I don't know how you start regulating from the land use standpoint,

2:42:25how a property owner uses their multifamily housing for condominiums or townhomes versus apartments. I don't think it's legal. I'm not even sure it's good policy. And it's certainly not very inclusive. And it doesn't recognize the need for workforce and affordable housing. That's point number one. Point number two is there was some reference to school issues and and and crowding. I just want to remind everyone, which obviously you know, that school concurrency applies.

2:42:55It doesn't matter if it's a single family subdivision, an apartment complex, a townhome project. School concurrency applies to every one of us. So in your location with your existing capacity, you're either going to get the approval the school district or you're not. We all go through that in every plan amendment. We go through that in every rezoning and you have to pass muster. So that's really a red herring as to whether rental apartments cause an issue with school concurrency that some other form of housing does

2:43:25not, because everyone has to comply. Point number three, the comment from Mr. McBride, you know, that that that our new motto is open spaces and vibrant places. Um You actually have to have concentrations of housing density. You have to have clustering to have open spaces. If you continue with the proliferation of large lots of urban single family housing, you will consume those open spaces and you certainly

2:43:55won't generate the vibrant places that require a walkable, concentrated, mixed use development pattern. So I submit that having an adequate stock of apartment housing is entirely consistent and in fact necessary to promote open spaces and vibrant places in Pasco County. And if you have any question about that, contact someone at ULI and ask them what they think is a necessary ingredient to open spaces and vibrant places. Point number

2:44:26four is is I agree with Commissioner Moore entirely. We should be looking at supply versus demand. So whatever the commission needs to do to get comfortable as to what supply is and demand is, obviously should be done. With that said. This market analyst, it doesn't matter whether, first of all, I believe her numbers are probably accurate because she has the data for the new Class A apartments built in the last 10 years. But if that is not correct, if

2:44:56there are other projects that have been built in the last 10 years, all that demonstrates is that there's been even greater demand than we think. That you've in fact absorbed more Class A apartments over ten years and yet you still have full occupancy of them. The question isn't what's happened the past 10 years. The question is with the indisputable demographics, the population increase, the median income, the rising median income in Pasco County, the change in lifestyle desires. Are you

2:45:26going to have a demand from this point forward? And Leslie has demonstrated pretty good evidence from non-opinion, just in Empirical data that you have a conservative need for at least 6,000 more Class A rental apartments over just the next five years. So that's point number four. The demand clearly is going to be there. Point number five is, and I hope no one's seriously going to consider this, but the option of a moratorium. that staff suggested will

2:45:57be an immediate buzzkill to your potential employers. If if you are serious as a county commission to continuing the wonderful effort. That you put out there and the progress you've made at Connected Cities and Lynn Angeline and Wiregrass and everywhere else in this county to employment generation,

2:46:21you ask your economic development council and your own department of economic analysis whether they think a published moratorium from this county commission, whether That's going to be a buzzkill to their effort to attract potential employers who, as Leslie indicated, are relying upon this workforce housing to support those jobs. And sixth and finally, Um I'm concerned that the commission will get into picking winners and losers in the marketplace. That

2:46:51is not what the government is supposed to do. The government under land use regulations is supposed to analyze a specific proposed use in a specific geographic location under your existing comp plan policies and determine whether that proposed use is consistent with the comp plan and reasonably compatible with existing surrounding or future planned uses. You do not as a commission decide that, well, there's an apartment approval here and

2:47:21three apartment approvals over there, and we can't approve this location until those other three get built. If those other three were the best preferred market location, guess what? That developer would have put one of those parcels under contract, not the one they have in front of you. These guys are now required to invest about $50 million. That's $50 million to develop one of these luxury Class A apartment complexes. They

2:47:52would not make that decision. They're looking at these numbers every Monday morning, not once every year or every two years, like you're seeing. They're looking at them every Monday morning. Their company, their shareholders, their own paycheck depend on them making the right decision and picking the right property. And if you carry the analysis that, well, we can't approve too many multifamily sites. Um, or we're gonna we're gonna kill the marketplace, then pray tell why has the county approved dozens of employment

2:48:23centers? Under that logic, you would approve only one employment center at a time until that gets completely developed and built out. So no one's competing with that employment center. You don't do that. You approve them in any location that's in a transportation corridor and A market location that makes sense, you allow the employer in the private marketplace to pick which of those needs to go first. And that's what you do. So those are just the policy points we would like to make. Beyond

2:48:53the data, I think this is very treacherous ground and really uncharted territory for this commission. I've been I've been doing this for 41 years. I worked my way through Penales, Hillsboro County, and Pasco. I've been in Pasco for over 20 years, and I've never seen the Pasco County Commission adopt. the policy that tried to control the free marketplace and direct where it was going to make investment. That is anathema to what I understand all of you stand

2:49:23for and what you ran for election for. You guys are free market people. That's all we have to It's all no, it's not inappropriate, it's a fact. It's a free market system and the county the county commission should not legislate the free market system. That's all I have to say. Danger.

2:49:43All right. Thank you, Joe.

2:49:44All right. Oh so Mr.

2:49:46Moore?

2:49:46Well I'm gonna wait and let them go so 'cause it's our conversation now.

2:49:51Okay. It's back to the board. Uh we need Terry back up. Um, I

2:49:56don't know because I have a few things I want to put up right now.

2:49:59Okay.

2:50:04Uh Mr. Mulville. Going back to one statement, uh something that's never been happened before, um actually this this this commission um actually just put a moratorium on um on storage units not too long ago. So that did happen. That's a fact. Um So I d I wanted to bring it just a f a few things up again. So I you know, when I talk about um Yeah, I um this is a It's almost getting old because I haven't to say the same things over and over again. But when we talk about a certain

2:50:35portion of the county and I go from that forty one to Bruce B. Downs quarter area, whether it be fifty-four, whether it be a Wesley Chapel Boulevard. Um Multiple roads in between That's where the majority of these lie. And that's when the majority of them are being built. And that's where the majority of them are coming in for approvals. These aren't large master plan communities anymore. And actually Mr. Tube brought up a point about that a second ago. And

2:51:05We have many, many sites that again that have the entitlements are ready to build apartments. Plenty and plenty of sites. And you know, I wish You know, because and I had some emails that I went over earlier that we could have gotten staffed to have the broad would have brought those here today and done that due diligence and that research so we can make good decisions. And I'll request some things at the end here. Um But when we think about

2:51:38The community. Like I mentioned before, I did this poll. And if you look, if you l I I think you all saw the um uh mark study the uh citizens survey And it was brought up on the citizen survey too. And if you look at the areas that have the There was an area and a couple of districts that the community felt They had the best um What's the word I'm looking for? Again,

2:52:08what was I'm trying to remember what that statement was. It felt that um

2:52:11MBSm.

2:52:11No, no, no. It

2:52:12was

2:52:12the most no, no, no, no. It was the most it was the most um Confidence in government.

2:52:20In this area had the most comments in government by sixty one percent.

2:52:25So they're trusting us to do the right things and trusting us to do to do the right things moving forward. So this poll again was taken during the holidays. I'm sure more people that were unsure or no opinion would have taken more time to respond. But again, out of those 400 people, this is scientific poll, there was people that were homeowners, renters, um Didn't matter, obviously. Um, you know, uh it didn't go by voter rules or anything like this. These are random calls of people in and and with live within that those

2:52:56zip codes, um, within mostly district two, but some went to went to uh Commissioner Starkey's district two, because it's kind of hard to uh go across 56.

2:53:06We run this poll.

2:53:07So this is what I showed you last uh two meetings ago. This is your

2:53:12Has a county stamp on it.

2:53:14So again, you know, when this poll was done, do you approve or disapprove of the amount of permits in your community? So 38 of 38.5 to 24.25, and then there was the unsure part. Go to the next one, please.

2:53:29Would you prefer to see more office and commercial development or more apartments being built? So the community feels that what's best for their community

2:53:40Or more office of commercial. Compare at 49% compared to apartments at 14.75. And go to the next slide. Do you believe more apartments should be approved and built in Pasco County? Well, fifty-seven point seven five percent said no, eighteen point two five percent said no.

2:54:00And what are

2:54:00the

2:54:01demographics of the people who answered this?

2:54:05It did not matter obviously your what your demographic was. These are random households that were pulled.

2:54:15Some of it went into your district because it's hard when it comes to zip codes. Three three five four four goes from District Two.

2:54:24I can pull up the let's pull I can tell you exactly zip codes. I was just going over because remember if you remember last the last Meeting, I told you the zip codes and I went over that, but I can tell you the zip codes again.

2:54:32I don't

2:54:33I mean I

2:54:33I wouldn't see it on a map of

2:54:35what they

2:54:35answered.

2:54:36So it's it's but if it's the majority of seven

2:54:38oaks,

2:54:38no no no no no no it's forty-one. No, well again District two, your air part of your district as well. All the way from 41 up into Zephyrhills.

2:54:50I think on my district it's all built out on the south of fifty four, except for the king.

2:54:54It doesn't matter. Some of the some people in your district were ones that answered this as well. I focused on that area two, District Two. So again, I'm I'm just showing you what the community feels. So you need to know how the community feels. And this is how they feel. It's a fact. Can you go to the next slide?

2:55:12We'll tell you the zip codes again. And remember this from last time in the z where did Terry go?

2:55:19And I'm going back to District Two again. where the majority of these are located right now. You see how many sites there are.

2:55:31We can possibly, we'll make sure you have it.

2:55:34But it's also the same place you're gonna find all the infrastructure and all that we've built in there. Handle all that traffic. Okay. That's our hub that we run.

2:55:44That's your hub? Well I mean I'm just saying is it your hub for what? What is it your hub for?

2:55:49That's where people live and people travel out of that area. That's why you got a divergent diamond going there. That's why you got overpassed.

2:55:55Yeah, I work I work very hard than diverging diamonds. I'm f I'm a I'm aware of the diverging diamond. Um, but at the same time Going back to look at how many parcels are already and already have the zoning for more multifamily. Can you go to the next one?

2:56:11So this I wanted to bring this up again because if you looked at the person's survey before they brought up, they don't include a bunch of these for whatever reason. So those are current ones. I know we're missing a couple too because it's A couple have gone up since, but that's okay. Those are current ones in that area.

2:56:31Uh Ramp Rent.

2:56:35don't know. Because she did eighteen hundred and above.

2:56:37Well I

2:56:38no,

2:56:38because those Those definitely aren't a lot of those definitely are not. I don't know if any of those are actually under thirteen hundred a month. I don't know. Yeah. Can you get on the next one? But I just want to compare those with those. And then there's other projects too. Charleston and Wesley Chapel, 228, Cypress Creek Town Center, 300. Um Aiken M PD, which is 252. Lexington Oakes just got billed at 248. Lexington Oaks has signs like crazy out there, you know, apartments available.

2:57:11Yeah, they just open 'em.

2:57:13Um it's been about a year ago probably. Okay.

2:57:15Yeah, so the

2:57:16year ago. So po possible future. But they remember they said earlier there's a big need. They've they they would be in there right now if there was a big need. F Hay Road, which you guys let go through today, parcel S19, and that's in the back of the Seven Oaks community. That already has um has gone in front of you. Two already have entitlements that could move forward. Um possible on 56 where it turns into 54 and possible age restricted, which was brought up. I met with an applicant that talked about age restriction,

2:57:47right north of 54. where Wesley Chapel Boulevard meets Bruce B. Downs as well. So there's a more and those aren't within Again, the big master plan communities we talked about that are already there that have been very, very thoughtful in the future. And staff in the past was very thoughtful in working with them. It just gets back to my point is stop rezoning land until those are built up. It's just gotta stop. And until I think when we talked about there's certain options that staff was giving us, to be honest

2:58:17with you, unless somebody already has entitlements, because we never want to take somebody's entitlements away. Mr. Chu said that earlier, and I agree wholeheartedly. We're never if somebody has the zoning already in place, somebody has entitlements, you should not look at taking that away. No way. I agree. Go to go to the next slide real quick.

2:58:38So that was the national uh our uh citizen survey presentation again, inclusions, opportunities for improvement, mobility, rapid growth, multifamily housing. That's what the citizens stated.

2:58:50Go to the next one.

2:58:55So we talked about moratoriums earlier. These are just some examples of some areas that I found.

2:59:04that dum or done some are in the process. There's a lot more but I didn't want to give you four or five pages worth of uh examples, but City of New Port Richey just did it. City of Tampa um just discussed this last Thursday. The city of Tampa. City of Claremont. City of DeBerry, Oakland Park, Winter Springs. Here's an example outside of the state of Florida, in Illinois, Massachusetts, Tennessee, Ohio, Alabama, Fort Worth, Texas. Next

2:59:34one real quick.

2:59:40A recent article, residents are concerned about straining resources, the difficulty evacuating during a hurricane. Now there are too many apartments in being built in South Tampa. That's what they took up last Thursday, which is coming back to the city council. They did not come to a conclusion. Nice.

3:00:01Yeah, system headlines. Again, there's people concerned about this all over the nation. A moratorium on new apartments, some Fort War city leaders think the city's oversaturated. Newport Ritchie plans a moratorium on apartment permits. No. I'm gonna keep going for a second. Next. I'm just giving you examples right now. Mayfield Heights Council considers moratorium on all future apartment construction. Next.

3:00:28Claremont did a six month warrantorium, if you know where Claremont is.

3:00:34Yeah, Phil Mary Claremont, right? Right outside of Orlando.

3:00:36Oh yeah, I know where to

3:00:39In one.

3:00:40Just northeast of here.

3:00:41Yeah. Right outside and right close to Haynes City opposed to 27. Next.

3:00:51Another headline, a couple other places. Deberry, if you know where the Barry is. Yeah. It's over in that area too. They put a pause on it. They've been going through that that that Orlando area has been going through this for for some time. Claremont's very similar to Wesley Chapel. A little smaller, but considered a suburb of Orlando. Next. So is the Barry.

3:01:17Okay, that's it. So You know, what I think we need to do uh personally. is have staff actually work and bring back

3:01:31The parcels That are currently So have the entitlements for multi-family. We need to see those. We have to see those to make a really, really solid decision. Moving forward. Yeah, I would never want to take entitlements away from somebody that they're there, they're there. They have them. But for us to continue to consider on literally every block. Every block from forty one. Coming up the Bruce B. Downs,

3:02:02if not more, to put one Put that many? That's insanity.

3:02:11Well there's there's a lot playing right out there where you're talking about Wesley Chapel. I mean from there back to three oh one and

3:02:22Me personally, I and again I said earlier today that new development that we can big master plan community. You know, that we Made some approvals on today. And this goes design well. Make sense. Walkable. Walkable. These one some of these that we're talking about, the one today that came up on Hay Row. That's not walkable. You can't walk anywhere. You can't walk w let me you cannot walk You c the kids can't even walk to school. There's not even a sidewalk. There's never gonna be a sidewalk that goes to that school. Do you think the along these ones that are stacked up along Westie

3:02:52Chapel Boulevard and 56 and 54. Nobody's gonna walk across Bruce B. Downs or State Road 56 or Wesley Chapel Boulevard. Where's they gonna walk to? Another apartment complex?

3:03:04Well, hang on because that plan that we just approved for two rivers has the school on the north side of a six lane highway. Yeah. So I got a little problem with that. Well um

3:03:15it does. It has apartments.

3:03:17That's also a big master planning community that's built into

3:03:22anyone who's gonna want to go to the park. is any child is gonna want to go to the park that's on the north side of State Road 56. It's gonna have to have mom or dad drive them. Unless they figure out a safe way to get over state road fifty six. Well they all have two parts. I'm not I I'm gonna agree with you that I would have a lot of angst to flip over um Bite industrial or any industrial into multifamily. Unless there was a

3:03:52um live-work situation where we had Um Jobs And work together. Like, like um down at um where Jable is and where um You know that y when you went down to see that um what's that name of that it's not What's that project that Jack was referencing?

3:04:14Carolon.

3:04:15That Darrell did. Carolon. I mean they got They've got all kinds of mixes and employment right there and very very dense.

3:04:24I would like to see What's coming? Um And I don't know that we've really seen that map. Um I looked up Pasco Woods, by the way, which was on your list, and I think it wasn't on the other list because it's under thirteen hundred and it's uh it is a hundred percent full. You can't you can't rent anything in there.

3:04:45So you just call

3:04:46them. So um no, it's I went to the renters thing and it's you there's nothing available to rent. So that tells you demand is there. Um

3:04:58for people that live in Pasco or for people that are coming here and going back to

3:05:01Tampa.

3:05:03There is no doubt fifteen hundred affordable. I know that's not what we're talking about today. Yeah. But Um

3:05:13I think it's a I I I would like to see the total number coming, but I think everything that's is telling us we we don't have enough still for what's coming. And we are We are growing, growing fast. And if a hundred people are moving to Pasco County a day. How many people, how many in those hundred are looking for apartment rental living?

3:05:36Right.

3:05:38Uh Leslie could tell me what that number is because I don't do good math on the fly. Gets me in trouble.

3:05:43Where are they working though? Where are they working? Where I'm just asking where they're working.

3:05:48We have jobs coming too.

3:05:49So so as we're attracting jobs, well I you know, I I've got a list of the new jobs that are coming here. Yeah.

3:05:56We have Insurance, Santandar, we have Moffett, we have um yeah.

3:06:02Yeah, we do, but I'm saying actually where are those people coming for now? They're still going do you see stacked up every day State Road fifty six going to Tampa? I mean,

3:06:11We got the Overpass Business Park coming. We have Santander with 875 jobs. Where are they going to live if we want them to live in our county? Um Mr. Chairman Mariano

3:06:25Those people that go to Hillsbury won't have to drive to Hillsboro. They could have those jobs. That's what we want them to have.

3:06:30All right.

3:06:30The Commissioner Pitpatry has to be a good thing.

3:06:32I'm trying to come up with different solutions. Okay, so obviously we have about a thirty percent rental availability rate in Pasco County. Whether they're rented right now or not, there's a thirty percent of available properties. Um, so there's r plenty of 'em. The problem is we don't have class A apartments is what to what her projection is. Now there's entitlements and there's also different the land uses that they can build the apartments in multifamily one, two, and three. C two

3:07:02and then specific M P U D's. So If we're keep coming across the fact of If there's supposed to be be commercial property and we want to live, work and play, and we want more commercial businesses to come in. then why don't we limit Dumb apartments or the multifamily homes to multifamily one, two, and three. So then why don't we just change the zoning and under C two

3:07:32conditional use take out the multifamily use. And then that's gonna limit. So when people go to buy their properties, they're looking for multifamily one, two, or three or creating their MPUDs. Instead of saying, okay, well, we're gonna come in and change this commercial property when we want to be able to have businesses coming into Pasco County, we're leaving the commercial properties alone and allowing them for industries to come in and then they're going just strictly to the multifamilies one, two, and three for

3:08:03their multifamily homes.

3:08:05Mm Mr. Chairman, I th just I think I got what you're saying. Basically what you're saying is look when we're there was options to change land development code. You're stating that Pull multifamily out of B2. So you can't come back later for a

3:08:25conditional use.

3:08:26Conditional use, right? Conditional use to make that change. Great idea. I think it I think it's a that you c would that would take a us to change go through the process of changing land development code. Um I think that's a good thing.

3:08:43Do I just make a motion?

3:08:47No,

3:08:47we can't just change the landed on

3:08:48the

3:08:49workshop.

3:08:54And I think in the meantime, to just pile on with that a little bit is Yeah. We as a board

3:09:03You know, when we're when we're hearing these come up, like we've heard some that want to change now. to that, you have the ability to say no. Now you ha literally have the ability, even without changing the land development code, you have the b ability to say no in certain circumstances. In certain circumstances. Yes, in certain circumstances. For example, there was there was been a couple three in the past that Though you could say no to There's

3:09:33some coming up in the future I know you can say no to. Um, so those things I think again we need to take in consideration. I think your idea is great and I think it's something that we should definitely look at.

3:09:44But it's also uh a fact that we realize from the report we had today and we we feel that, even though we feel there's some saturation in your area.

3:09:57We have a lot coming forward and there's a need for some something like 5,800 units. Is that 10 more apartments? Is that twelve more apartments? And then you're caught up to that. Well,

3:10:09that's why we need to look at how many we have, how many entitlements are already out there can Mr. Chairman, you look how many timelines are out there and see if that needs filled. I guarantee it will be because of how many of there are out there.

3:10:20I wanna draw you back to I wanna I oh I'm next but you can go after, sorry. That's the problem when you're not here. Um but you can go after me. Um I wanna draw your attention back to what Mr. Two said about Trying to artificially control the market. And um when you do that Sometimes you know Bad things happen. And just because Someone's entitled. Doesn't

3:10:50mean first of all they build them all. That I mean, Starkey Ranch was entitled maybe someone here can tell me what it was, to a certain number of units and never, never built them all. So the market You know, a and and market circumstances dictate a lot of what happens here. And I can tell you that Um these guys building these um expensive apartment complexes have to go out and get financing. They're not

3:11:20gonna get financing if they're gonna open up a rental. Um Unit up. Rental complex that doesn't get Filled up. I mean, no one's gonna give the money. So the the demand is here because the need is here. And and because those uh M P D's have entitlements Doesn't mean they're building them next year. I've I've seen it happen where it takes 10, 20 years, 30 years before they actually

3:11:51build out.

3:11:51So you know I I've asked and out in the marketplace right now. There's probably three or more developers that are standing there ready to find the right property to build an apartments on because the demand is there. Yeah. Right now.

3:12:06But you're creating you're creating demand by building them to come from Hillsboro County is mostly what you're doing.

3:12:12But Mr. Chairman Mariano. Let me go to uh Mr. Mariano. No

3:12:15need

3:12:16for current needs.

3:12:21closing market period. No matter what you build, it's gonna fill up. We got to look at making a choice. Do you want single-family houses, which are the the best demographic going, which has led to the great success in Wesley Chapel Trinity across the board? Those people are paying the taxes along the way. It's great quality of life. A big reason why people want to come here. The focus needs to be is so as well as creating jobs, but what type of housing do we want? I don't want us to turn into like a seminal county where they're all of a sudden, apartment after apartment after apartment, and all of a sudden, that demographic

3:12:51shift and it's not as good a place to be anymore. I want Pasco County to, I'd rather see us take it a little bit slower and have more single family than the apartments. As far as, you know, control in the market, Commissioner Moore, you brought up a great number of moratoriums that were going out there or discussions are going out there about what they can control. I'm I'm all about taking a look at that as well. And you know, frankly, the area we suggested to block off from five. We left out 581 over to Wesley Chapel Boulevard. Maybe we need to look at that again. Uh Because when you can take that nice hospital property

3:13:21and go flip that to apartments when I've already got apartments going there, what am I doing? It goes against the complete DRI setup that was there before. And now I'm going against that. If there's enough apartment supply that's out there, and you know you can talk to developers that own Lend right now that have apartments, they'd rather see us develop their apartments right there as well. Let's go with what we've got. We did enough of it already. Before we go flood the market, let's let that let's control the market a little bit where we can say, all right, you've got this, this, and this, go build them over there. That's where

3:13:51the properties are set. And uh Commissioner Fitzpatrick, I think he had a great idea with the uh speak two part. Good idea.

3:13:59Yeah. That was a good Mr. Chairman, just going back and Commissioner Mariano made a just made a really, really, really good point. he said that if there was such of a demand a lot of the people that currently have their entitlements or the zoning for it would be moving forward. So why haven't they?

3:14:18Okay, good that's a it's a great point he just made.

3:14:22There's thirty percent of rental property out there. The problem is the market isn't looking just for those type of rental properties. They're looking for the forecasted class A rental properties. They don't want the property that we already have. So we have to figure out what we can do with the property that we already have that's sitting there vacant as well.

3:14:43Nothing vacant.

3:14:46There's nothing vacant.

3:14:49There's a demand for a certain amount of

3:14:50parts. We are uh you could get Marcy on the phone um and to tell you that we had this wonderful plan about getting homeless people off the street into a motel and into a rental home until we ran into okay, there's no rentals. There's none. So uh and I have people calling me because I know some people that have short term rentals and they're asking to uh asking if they can see if this person would rent them the house rather than it being a short-term rental. Because

3:15:21you know what's happening is that people that had rental homes, the the value's so high on them that they're all selling them. Um To people who are, you know, homebought, uh, the occupier. So the rental, the houses in the rental market. R disappearing, ask any real estate company. I hang out with a lot of realtors. There's there's the supply of housing in Pasco is a real problem.

3:15:53Yeah. There Mr. Chairman Mariano there's one down there now. We c we'll take a picture of it maybe um consider the Dan and he can forge everybody that has fourteen signs out in front of every today. Fourteen signs are right.

3:16:05Did they just open? It takes a couple of years to get to full capacity.

3:16:12But you think that she's making it up that they're ninety five percent is considered full?

3:16:18Um That could be I know I know when I did when I did um last and I told you guys about this when I did my mystery calling as I like to go back to the old school sales days and I called nine of them, eight of them had availability that day. One of them said I'd have to wait. I think it was a week or two weeks.

3:16:35Well, she said that they always have people moving

3:16:38in and moving

3:16:39out. Yeah,

3:16:39that means they've ability

3:16:41ninety five percent means there's Some available.

3:16:44I listen, I'm not saying she's right or wrong. I just know she was hired by the department developers to give her presentation. So

3:17:01So Terry you won't come back? You're professional.

3:17:07idea. This I mean this is a regular item, so you can make motions to direct us.

3:17:11Yeah, you can make motions and What may and they need direction and Uh the same as we do. We need directions on

3:17:21You can make your motion on your idea.

3:17:25Okay. I would like to

3:17:26let her make a motion.

3:17:28Well, I wanted Terry to comment on that because what does that mean if we take residential out of C two? Does that get rid of LiveWorks? What does that mean? I mean multifamily.

3:17:36Multifamily.

3:17:37Does that get rid of multi walkable communities? Walkable

3:17:41Well Well certainly I think the inclusion of multifamily as a conditional use. Within the C2 zoning district achieves the mixed land use objective that that many communities have, and I think PASCO has for C2 specifically. A lot of the mixed use, however, is taking place in Um M P U D's. Um that I think that's there's a lot of uh um lot of projects that have brought forward their mix mix of mix of land uses within

3:18:11the MPUD. and much less in a standard Euclidean zoning district.

3:18:18That's

3:18:18because it's a standard

3:18:19Euclidean zoning district and it's not really intended to be mixed use. Exactly.

3:18:23Right. Well I mean you can have your you can have Euclidean zones that are mixed use zones and act properly Euclidean. um in terms of how they're how they go through the process and whatnot. But the but the county attorney his uh observation is

3:18:38But exact

3:18:39Sorry.

3:18:40But exactly what you just said. You had properties that had the mixed use. They had commercial mixed in with their multifamilies. They didn't just come in, have multifamilies. in that area. They had the whole development.

3:18:57Yeah, the in in the case of C two zoning, you're gonna look at the entire C two zoning district. And it's gonna have its permitted uses that are gonna be in that C2 zoning district, then it's gonna have its conditional uses that are gonna be on that C2 zoning district. And it's gonna be a Property by property. Every every property owner has various entitlements according to the to the Euclidean zoning. Um for much larger projects like in MPUDs, a lot of times there will be a mix of land uses on the same property that ultimately then gets divvied up. Into separate parcels

3:19:28later on. But it's a a more integrated community. This is typically what happens when we see Motorum projects, those mixed-use trip production measure projects when um developments come in and they propose quant certain quantities of single family, certain quantities of townhomes, certain quantities of apartments, plus the office, plus the commercial, and they're all happening all together. Those traditional

3:19:53Um so the one thing that I would say in terms of, you know, looking at the mixed use nature of C2, um, it's something that I've said before. We have to take a look at multifamily and what it actually means. It's not just apartments. And we're not When we're talking about land use, we have to set aside the renter versus owner uh discussion. Multifamily is everything that's single family detached and more. So single family detached is single family homes, then single family

3:20:23attached, duplexes, townhomes, row homes, courtyard apartments, garden apartments, mid-rise, high-rise, et cetera, is all together in what's considered multifamily. Um Yeah, it's uh i if i if you're gonna look at multifamily, you really need to parse that out and start to think about, you know, what type of what types of multifamily exist and what does what is the market potential for each of those typologies. And I mentioned in the presentation earlier

3:20:54about understanding the residential marketplace. And that's pretty much What you need to do, I I as I see it, is understand what kind of multifamily is the marketing place looking at. There's different types of multifamily. It's not all just apartments. It's not all renter even. Some a lot of it's ownership related. But it again, putting that aside, it's there is merely to illustrate that there's a that multifamily is a complex block of land use. Um that we have to be careful with in order to

3:21:24make sure that we can have mixed land uses, mixed income communities. Um and places for everybody to live um in Pasco.

3:21:32But they could still build in the multifamilies one, multifamily two, multifamily three, and the MPUD's different zones. And then they can still come and request a zoning change if they really wanted to. But at least this would get them to focus on Finding property that's already zoned for multifamilies instead of coming in and taking over the commercial properties.

3:21:57Yes. Yeah.

3:22:01But it's I'm not sure that's the entire picture of it, but that that's an aspect of it, yes.

3:22:14Can I pile on a little bit?

3:22:15So we'd have so in our C2s there wouldn't be any more walkability. You couldn't live in a C two. That would be

3:22:25If you were to remove multifamily as a conditional use. you would increase the probability of not being able to live in C two zones.

3:22:35So I think there's a parcel coming. Um On fifty I guess it's fifty-four because it's before Wesley Chapel Boulevard. That is an age restricted community. Um That has Retail commercial gonna Mixed in with it in the front. Um, you know, it's the Jamie Woods property that has the wildlife corridor.

3:23:00I already said I'm fine with that.

3:23:02Yeah, so so that would be would that be an example of something we couldn't do where those seniors that are living there couldn't Walk out their door and go to a coffee shop or the beauty parlor. Is that would that be What we're doing here.

3:23:15He's already gone through the pre op, so it won't affect him. But

3:23:18I know, but are we saying we can't do that anymore? But they could still

3:23:20come in

3:23:21their car and drive everywhere.

3:23:22But they could still come in front of the board and request a zoning change.

3:23:26Right, that's correct. I'm sorry, Denise Hernandez Planning and Development. So my understanding of Mr. Woods's property is that their intent is to come in with a master plan. So it'll have b those both components, the commercial component. And Uh the last we spoke of with them is the the uh age restricted multifamily component. component.

3:23:47I think

3:23:48the application hasn't come in, but that was the the discussion we were having.

3:23:52I think we all have to be very careful if if um you look look if you listen to the ULI again you didn't listen to it, but Some of you did. Um we are over retailed. Over retail. So that means no there aren't gonna be a whole lot of commercial It's gonna not not gonna be a whole lot of commercial building going on. Um so We're gonna We're gonna take people's land and I I think we're gonna

3:24:22have a serious slowdown in what we wanna see. Maybe that's what y'all want. But

3:24:31Isn't that what they said? That we are we have way too much commercial and it's gonna be a little bit more than a But

3:24:36the nation as a whole is we're I'm gonna get the ratio wrong, but us compared to Western Europe, we have a hundred times more square foot per capita than they do in Europe for retail. Yeah, a lot of that's because indoor the indoor mall boom that happened in the what, sixties, seventies, eighties and nineties.

3:24:55But I'm I'm sitting here trying to reimagine US nineteen and I think one day forty one Maybe um And I'd like to see some of that C two go away and become multifamily. I mean, I I'm trying to revitalize that corridor and what you're gonna do is kill it. Kill it.

3:25:15Well then they shouldn't have just the apartments in the C two. They should have the whole infrastructure with the commercial with the

3:25:22I agree. I agree

3:25:23with it. Not just

3:25:24maybe maybe say you can't come in Um if you have existing C2, you can't um switch the whole thing to multifamily. But

3:25:34yeah, you have to be mixed used.

3:25:35It has to be a mixed use. I'm fine with that. But you're gonna kill these corridors that are old and need attention. Um, that's a very dangerous policy to be thinking about.

3:25:46Commissioner Fitzpatrick the question. Are you Commissioner, are you thinking the area where we're having the really the problem? Are you thinking more of that forty one, say forty one cut off at fifty two to say Bruce B. Downs? Is that what you're thinking in that area? for for this policy?

3:26:01If you're changing a conditional, if you're taking it out of the conditional Euclidean zoning, it would apply countywide. It would not apply just in a particular area.

3:26:11And I would say forty one needs a redo as well. So

3:26:15that's why

3:26:15I

3:26:15was working on it. Yeah. Yeah.

3:26:19But

3:26:19then that's gonna come back into the MPUDs when they come in with their whole community development and like the Starkey Ranch and the Angeline and everything. They have everything.

3:26:29But it has the infrastructure, it has the schools, it has the parks, it has everything within the community.

3:26:37Yeah, and there aren't that many properties like that left. That's why there a lot of them are looking at Manatee and going south. But um Two Rivers Ranch. And uh maybe out where Commissioner Oakley is, but you know. There's still some big properties for big planned communities, but sadly we don't I'd like I mean, I think those are great for the county. I wish more people had come in with the planned. um communities like that. Mr. Chairman Marianous for the reasons I

3:27:08mentioned on US nineteen and on 41. that needs a facelift and a redo.

3:27:15Sure.

3:27:16Okay.

3:27:17So Carrying out and um Um And I'll ask Mr. Steinsleiner to if he doesn't mind to possibly jump in a little bit too. You know, going back to what really brought this about is the area where there's a lot of oversaturation and it continues to be, which is that again, that 41

3:27:41the Bruce V. Downs area, not just the fifty f not just fifty four, fifty six. We're talking about Westy Chapel Boulevard and some other roads with within there and some other areas in there in within there. Um And Personally, I mean I think we need to ha know how many entitlements there currently are there. We we as a board needs to know we need to know what's available. You know, we really need to do. And that's why I think, you know, in that area from

3:28:11that point to that point. We need a pause. For a while. We need to take a pause. And

3:28:22not allow these parcels like situations that went came up today and in a couple of weeks ago to change the potential commercial or office or um Line industrial or industrial lands to go to multifamily until we know exactly what we're dealing with. Until we you know. We're just Until until we actually know How much capacity we have. It's hard to make a really s good

3:28:52decision. Two So if we keep allowing these things to move forward on every single block, literally.

3:29:02We're just again, it's turning bad and it's gonna get turned to turn worse. I don't I don't know what else I need to do to sell it. You know, I

3:29:10it's really not stopping anything. They can always come in front of the board and ask for a rezoning.

3:29:18So if even if we took out the conditional land use, uh conditional use of multifamily homes in the C two, they could come back later on or they can always add it back in ten years from now.

3:29:31I think that's very expensive. Takes a lot of time. I think that if the problem area is over here and you're looking for some kind of solution over here. Uh that's very different than the solution we need for the West Pasco area. So

3:29:49Well you still have your multifamilies one, two, and three in your MPUDs.

3:29:57Um so I'm I'm not okay with with the idea of doing something countywide like that. But if you can think of some way um to um See what's happening over here. I I don't feel I have an ac ac accurate picture yet, but I just want to reiterate again, just because yeah you have the entitlements doesn't mean you're using them. And I've seen that over and over and over again. Um that's

3:30:26correct. You're right.

3:30:26Mr. Batcha.

3:30:29The ailability's there. We're not going to be able to do that.

3:30:32They will not build them unless it's a good thing.

3:30:36Right. And that's why my again, my fear lies is that so many of the MPUDs and such You know, w now I've heard yeah, some are moving forward in the in the future, but right now they're not. If the demand is so high, so high That somebody's willing to w walk up and buy that parcel tomorrow tomorrow from 'em. They're gonna take it.

3:31:00And that's that that is what's happening. I think the demand is very high.

3:31:04No, it's not. It's the opposite. They because they're not going to the properties where the entitlements are.

3:31:08Thank you.

3:31:10Yeah, Mr. Chairman Mariano.

3:31:14Wait a minute. Well let's put them on other

3:31:17suggests that help out nineteen. That's what I so Mr. Chairman M Commissioner Mariano is. Oh yeah. So help out nineteen. Focus on helping them out. They need help. Give them a chance.

3:31:28So and and Commissioner Starkey brings up a good point about US nineteen. We we do need the density there. That's a different Type of corridor. I think the corridor in the Wesley Chapel area that we've blocked out might be looked at a little bit closer. Maybe we need to do a little bit more. I think what happens is When you are so easy to change a zoning to let a development come in, such as the apartments, it takes away The product viability of the ones that are sitting there already that's been zoned for it. So by making it easier and easier, it's just easier

3:31:59to go. I'll just go get a rezoning change rather than go the prop buy property over there to go. If we've designed this how we want it to be, put the car as we want it to be, the developments where we want it to be, how we wanted it to be, then before we actually have to go bring in more new, fresh apartments, let's go, let's go focus. on those and if there's a message out there that we're gonna have to go develop those first before we're gonna let any other apartments go in. It's gonna drive them to where we want it to go in the first place.

3:32:28Just Mr. Chairman Mariano I'm probably done. But well, I mean this is this is very important. I agree with how important it is to our citizens that live there. I will let them all email you and l so they can tell you how it is. I've told 'em to hold off on that, but I think they need to open the floodgates to be honest with you. Um But There's so many people in in in developments and developers that have done the Things so right. And are very, very successful communities around here. Oh,

3:32:58you know, I can go down the road. I'll say like Starkey and um Starkey Ranch and and Wire Wiregrass and all these developments, master plan communities that have done it right. They've done the things the right way. What's not being done right is plopping these places up, these multifamily apartment buildings, on every corner. in that area. That's not good development. That's not being done right because that does not end up being a walkable community

3:33:29we all talk about. That's not there. But these other developments have gone through the process. They put the time in to do it right. They're literally just going in, asking you to rezone this piece of land, plop it up an apartment complex, and they're gone. The debt gets paid off in, you know, 10, 15, 20 years, and see you later. That's not a long-term investment in the community. These developments and things I've talked about, I just talked about are long-term develop investments in the community. The one we talked about earlier this morning at New River

3:33:59is a long-term investment. Well planned out development for the future. Metal Points very well planned out development for the future.

3:34:06You know those aren't coming forward

3:34:08Yeah

3:34:08that quickly. Within that five years, they're not coming forward.

3:34:12So just gotta stop plopping these things up on corn every corner.

3:34:17My goal is just to try to have them start looking out and reaching out to the multifamilies one, two, and three first. So I would like to motion to direct the staff to begin the process of amending the land development code to remove the multifamily as a conditional use for the C2.

3:34:37What she's asking was to bring him back. So she's asking to bring it back. You look it over.

3:34:42Well she's that's she's made a motion if she gets

3:34:44a

3:34:44second to

3:34:45to start the process. Yeah, that's what I mean. That's what I'm saying. It'll bring they'll bring it back for you to look at. You're not voting on doing anything today by second. Take a look at that.

3:34:54Uh question? Are apartments allowed an M F one?

3:35:00Yes. Apartments are as I said earlier today, it's all multifamily. It's not apartments, it's not condos, it's all multifamily.

3:35:12What's the difference between I'm sorry, I don't have memorized. What's the difference between MF one, MF two, and MF three. three?

3:35:18Yeah, Yeah, Denise knows.

3:35:21Sure. Sure. The difference is basically uh there are two differences, the building height and also the density. So MF one you've got twelve dwelling units per acre, two it's eighteen. And then three goes up to twenty four.

3:35:33Have you ever seen apartments at twelve per acre?

3:35:36Um Yes, because a land use actually limited them also. They were actually in Res 12. So yes, I have seen that. Very small complex. Today's project was thirteen. Yeah, today

3:35:48it's

3:35:48thirteen.

3:35:53Oh the motion is to Read

3:35:56back.

3:35:56Read it back.

3:35:57Do you want me to repeat that?

3:35:59The motion was to to direct staff to begin the process of amending the land development code to delete. B2 as a conditional use for

3:36:09multifamily.

3:36:12I have a

3:36:13second.

3:36:14And I have a second. Okay. Um I have a motion and a second.

3:36:21I'm sorry, can you tell me what the motion is again?

3:36:25Okay. The motion that the commissioner put on the floor was to direct staff to begin the process of amending the land development code. To remove Multifamily as a conditional use in the C two zoning category.

3:36:42Not to bring it back for discussion, but to start changing the code.

3:36:46You

3:36:46have

3:36:46to still vote on it.

3:36:47And begin public hearing.

3:36:48Right.

3:36:48Yeah.

3:36:49You gotta bring it

3:36:49back. Yeah.

3:36:50Yeah, there'll be three of them.

3:36:55Okay.

3:36:56Um under discussion, I would say let's do a workshop to understand what that means because we haven't done a workshop on that.

3:37:04Right. No I got a motion

3:37:07to start doing public hearing on the LDC land development code like that. So I'll be opposing it.

3:37:14We have a motion and a second though. So by roll call vote.

3:37:20Just a

3:37:21Alright.

3:37:23I'm not on. I'm gonna redo that. District two, Commissioner Moore. Aye. District three, Commissioner Starkey. Nay. District four, Commissioner Fitzpatrick. Aye. District five, Commissioner Mariano.

3:37:34Hi.

3:37:36District One, Chairman Oakley.

3:37:41Motion passed four to one. Okay.

3:37:44Mr. Chairman M this is again I don't this is really as an emotion, and I think Commissioner Starkey was in agreement with what I was talking about earlier. Um Can we s kind of have a date certain? No, no, no, not on that. That you we you bring back. The amount I mean you could do it, I think it probably should be county wide, to be honest with you. That countywide Bring back. To this board. How many entitlements

3:38:15are for multifamily across the county, because we need to know that. Yeah.

3:38:20Then you also need to bring back the history of How m what percentage of those entitlements actually get used?

3:38:28Well in a

3:38:30historical to complicate it further, you have the looms that mean you can switch uses between different things during the process after the board approved. So you got

3:38:42two days of reason.

3:38:43There's several different levels there that we're gonna have to work on.

3:38:46So that that would be in your M P U D's where you have land use exchange mechanisms. It

3:38:52wouldn't

3:38:52be in your straight category.

3:38:54Correct. But I think they're asking for what we have in our MPUDs, the entitlements are in the M PUD.

3:38:59Doesn't it have to be in an M PUD? A lot of them are M Puds. R D R I. It doesn't matter what it is.

3:39:06It's either an MPUD or it's straight zoning.

3:39:08Straight zoning too. Yeah. It doesn't have to be M Pud.

3:39:10Yeah. Yeah. Right. And we have the straight zoning numbers. Okay. I mean, it's the MPUDs that is the the large challenge. Right. We can dig into every one of them and come back with some numbers. So that's not an overnight task.

3:39:24Okay. I I know it's

3:39:24not

3:39:25a

3:39:25needed task.

3:39:29Somehow those that have more questions they would direct direct to Terry to answer based on this issue we're talking about today. I think you need to do that so you have better if you don't understand it correctly, so you have a better understanding. Okay.

3:39:44So to continue that state. Well, you know, one of the big reasons we came here today was because of, you know What the issue is, you know, and probably because I brought it up, I would assume. Um in the area where we have the oversight. We really haven't addressed our Commissioner Fashion Patrick helped out, made a motion to bring that back to us, but Right now we have this ongoing saga of people bringing in or coming

3:40:14in for these results. We really haven't addressed that. you know, a lot in that area. Yeah. You know, we talk about quote moratoriums. Um I don't consider it really a moratorium. If you look at a certain section of the county, say again, I'm using 41 to Bruce B. Downs. that unless you already have obviously entitlements or you've come in front or or similar to what we did

3:40:44with um the storage units.

3:40:49Unless you've already in the I don't want to say um pre-op because prep had pre-ops five years ago. Um unless you've already submitted.

3:41:03That we put a pause. We have a pause for a while. Until all this information can come back, we can make have better decision making.

3:41:10And if it's a smaller area of the county.

3:41:12Right. Well, I don't what I'm at the same time, what I'm saying is it's not a f what we're doing is still allowing the people that again that have their current entitlements and if they have already gone through um the the application process. Right. We carve

3:41:28out the other. Unless you want to

3:41:30use

3:41:30this an ordinance. A moratorium ordinance, staff cannot refuse applications.

3:41:37Right. So in the in the um When it came to the storage units. We

3:41:44did

3:41:44a moratorium. But if people were already going through the

3:41:47process, you can you can carve out people that

3:41:51that

3:41:51can still move forward. Right. But you still have to do the moratorium if that's what the goal of the board is.

3:41:58No, I understand. I understand what you're saying. But we still, again, it's not fair to not if somebody already has the entitlements and somebody have already started the pre doesn't mean we need to say yes. I want to remind everybody that doesn't mean you to see say yes, but they can still go through the Started the process, let them finish going for the Planning Commission coming from this board. That from again, from I'd say Bruce B, I don't think Commissioner Starkey wants to see it. Maybe she does on the southern portion of 41, but from 41 to 52, all the way up to Bruce B. Downs is where I'd like to

3:42:28see it happen.

3:42:29I I don't want it in my district. I like to see that all redeveloped.

3:42:34Okay. So I'd say so my motion would be from the corner of 41. North, stopping at fifty two.

3:42:44So Conerton.

3:42:45So Bruce B. Downs. Bruce B. Downs. Well Connerton already has their entitlements. Carnerton has entitlements. Yeah. They're all you're not m messing with anybody that already has their entitlements.

3:42:56And people that already have their applications and we're not stopping them.

3:42:59From going through the process. You don't have to say yes at any time, but you're s yes, they can already s continue on with the process. Once they've started fair for somebody that's already started the process. Oh

3:43:10Or purchase their land? Say they've already purchased it.

3:43:14Well typically nobody's typically let me jump in. Typically what you're seeing come in front of us, they have a the

3:43:21no

3:43:22they haven't made they haven't actually closed on a piece of land until they've gotten their entire their uh zoning. Mr. Stein's very probably attested that. That's what you see in front of you all the time. Nobody's typically closed on their land until they go through the process. That doesn't make good business sense.

3:43:34I'm not sure whether the market has gotten quite hot enough at the time.

3:43:39That's a big change. I think

3:43:40they leave that open. So it's

3:43:43okay. So it's can I go try to make sure I understand the geographic boundaries? So you're saying let me start with forty-one. to fifty two, across to come down seventy five. Or go fifty two all the way to the county line.

3:43:57I would love to see can we have a map come up real quick? Yeah, we can put a map up. That'd

3:44:00be better.

3:44:02If you just go to

3:44:04laser pointer.

3:44:10I just want to make sure we have the right boundary before you have a discussion.

3:44:16Yeah, they'll bring it up in a second. confused at the eastern and southern boundary. I I I got the west and north.

3:44:24Yeah.

3:44:27'Cause I wouldn't bring up the 'cause I wasn't sure if you were taking forty one to the county line or to fifty four either.

3:44:33Well I I was looking for a wait for a map. I thought we were I was gonna wait for the

3:44:40projects that are moving that are inbound.

3:44:45It would be pay um slide eight of the staff presentation is a good map to use.

3:45:01Well, Commissioner Starkey said we're not getting the county line. So we're getting we're getting it.

3:45:05While I was not if I could ask the attorney a question. Um so At what process are people grandfather? At what point in the process?

3:45:18Or what I don't understand the question. Grandfather grandfathered from what? I guess is that the

3:45:26plan.

3:45:28So Yeah.

3:45:30Next slide.

3:45:31So at today's board meeting, if you make this if you make this policy shift, you can say in the ordinance that you adopt later that any applications that were filed on today's date or before Yet to move forward. Or you can wait until the ordinance hearing and say any applications that were filed. Up to today's ordinance. But Smith Burks is the city of Clearwater says that it once there once

3:46:01the public is on notice that you're changing your policy, you can s you can pick that date, which I would say would be to today would be a conservative day.

3:46:12Is

3:46:12that it? Does that answer your question, Commissioner? Okay. Yeah,

3:46:16we don't have to move again, something may come in front of us. It doesn't mean you have to approve it. It's just they've started the pr application process and or actually they started that process and you can hear them in the public hearing. Oh boy.

3:46:29Um

3:46:30okay.

3:46:32So this is the map showing the urban service area.

3:46:36I would like to do one that actually we can, you know, myself and probably those at home can actually tell what roads they are.

3:46:45Are you looking at just your district?

3:46:47Can we just say

3:46:47your district?

3:46:48I am. Yeah. A portion of it. Not all not all of that district. The area where I feel that we have the Most in the oversaturation the problem lies and it's a portion of that area.

3:47:03Well, I think it's important for Yeah, okay. Forty one

3:47:09Laura? to 52, which would be the south side of that portion of the road. Okay. You know you know what I'm saying? Okay. We're not going across fifty two for us yet. And then come up.

3:47:22Mm-hmm. Where Bruce B. Downs is.

3:47:27Well that would

3:47:28come up for like

3:47:29Donald Pasco. On the inside, I'm not including I'm not including fifty-two. Ins inside of fifty two. Up to Bruce B. Downs.

3:47:44Bruce Yeah, you take Wesley Chapel Boulevard's included at Bruce Bowns, yes. You got it, you got it, right?

3:47:52Safe for you.

3:47:55Why? I da I well whatever I can get Commissioner Starkey to support.

3:48:00I don't think there's anything left. Um

3:48:05Land south of fifty four.

3:48:07You're probably wrong.

3:48:10You've got uh Northwood, Northwood Lakes.

3:48:13True. Yeah. I think

3:48:14it's all built.

3:48:15And there's already those apartment complexes there and another one already bought it. Okay. So

3:48:21I I understand your boundaries. Yeah.

3:48:23So this is fifty four north.

3:48:26I I understand your boundaries.

3:48:30I I I am. haven't you you understand

3:48:33the lines

3:48:33then. We're good. Yeah, I understand the lines. Okay.

3:48:36What about that new cockpit?

3:48:42I guess I the rest of the motion. That well that that was yeah, that's part of the motion.

3:48:50So what's your motion?

3:48:52Okay, so we we put a a a pause on any rezoning. Or apartments. Well that would also incl Mr Stimmers are besides rezoning, that would also that we would need to Yeah. A multifamily. That would include you can actually carve it out, but um Besides straight rezoning there's also There's other things we wouldn't think we would want to include in

3:49:22that as well.

3:49:23Well, you it would be rezoning, conditional use, approvals. Yeah. You're you've said that if uh if it's an M P U D and they're entitled, you're not stopping.

3:49:34Right. They're already entitled, they're already entitled.

3:49:37Yeah, you can carve that out.

3:49:40Yeah.

3:49:43Just the living facilities are s actually are actually separate.

3:49:49Yeah,

3:49:49that's different deal. That's not Yeah, they're actually separate. 'Cause we've actually done rezoning four we've actually taken apartments multifamily and rezoned that parcel or change the change the zoning to Was the time round of the post

3:50:07Pardon?

3:50:08We're gonna pause for how long?

3:50:10Well Until we ca until staff can bring back what was requested about how many parcels in that area. Have That zoning. The current zoning or current entitlements.

3:50:23The pause would be specified by your ordinance, which is what the commissioner is directing, not The the pause start today.

3:50:32Okay.

3:50:34So yeah, we can't start it today. As I said, you you've got you've got to adopt a moratorium ordinance that's gonna require a hearing before your planning commission. It's gonna require two hearings before your board before this.

3:50:46Wait, so I thought he was talking about something separate from what she was talking about.

3:50:51Uh uh. Oh thanks, yeah. Well

3:50:54we can't

3:50:54do it.

3:50:54We

3:50:54can't

3:50:54you can't do it today, it has to go through a public hearing commissioner. I can't we can't just vote on it today. But it can be re retroactive to today.

3:51:01Right.

3:51:02Yeah.

3:51:03But aren't you bringing up something different than what's we are going to do?

3:51:08He's talking about a monetary thing.

3:51:10That's totally separate things. Yeah. Commissioner Oakley Yeah, Yeah, she's she you're on the same page.

3:51:19Same process. Yeah.

3:51:20Okay.

3:51:24So So what the time frame would be Stuent to how long it's going to take you guys to bring White's probably off work, I guess. Um

3:51:37Well how long do you think? Four months, five months, three months,

3:51:41six months?

3:51:42Well i

3:51:42if I I I Yeah, I wouldn't do a moratorium short in one hundred and eighty days. It's gonna take us at least 90 to 120 days to do the MPD research. And keep in mind at the same time, the building numbers have doubled, actually tripled in January. You're we're seeing the same thing in long range and current planning. So you're we have we have a resource constraint issue, so I would I would if you're gonna do a moratorium, do it for 180 days with the ability to extend it. Okay, 180 days. And and and I think we can get

3:52:12done faster, but we're resource constrained and we don't want to slow down the rest of the process that

3:52:22I'll say 180 days, but

3:52:23if

3:52:24you are able to get that done before that you could always We have the option to you could always cancel it. Cancel it. We want to make sure everybody understands the lines, right?

3:52:33Yeah, I I would have said keep it in the urban urban service bumping area, but you've included a whole bunch of land.

3:52:41where? I took out fifty-two.

3:52:47A lot of that's not in the urban service boundary. Well that's why I'm gonna vote against it. It's too too broad for me.

3:52:58So that also we don't vote

3:53:00on that today. We just make a motion for a more training. That's a motion.

3:53:04Yeah, that's my motion.

3:53:05Oh yeah, I have a question. Are you starting it? from today or the date of the ordinance or like if someone's been working for the past two years on a project and they're getting ready to submit their paperwork, well, they've just s wasted the past year and it's already shut out.

3:53:24I don't know. Here here's my answer to you. If you're supportive and you would like it to be on the date of the first public hearing, I'm fine with that. You good with that?

3:53:36Can you

3:53:36explain that? Well he's just saying that that that instead of being retroactive to today. he he w would accept as a friendly amendment, I guess. Yes. That the that the it would be the day whatever day staff gets the ordinance in front of in front of you to adopt

3:53:57that would be the

3:53:58the moratorium start.

3:53:59Okay. Is that good for you? Okay. Okay. Thanks. Commissioner Mariano, are you you okay with that?

3:54:04I was okay even before the day changed.

3:54:07Okay. Well I I don't want to split hairs, you know, I got I I got three of you now. A

3:54:12bad emotion who was sick.

3:54:14You good with that, Commissioner? No.

3:54:17So you're gonna take three months to bring the ordinance to us.

3:54:21No. Well

3:54:21is one 180 days. No. How many that's six months?

3:54:24Well the the ordinance. The moratorium ordinance is different than the research we asked about.

3:54:29You said it would take 180 days.

3:54:32To do the research. To do the research.

3:54:34That's not what he said.

3:54:34Well the research is involved in the ordinance, right? Okay, can we resume the

3:54:39motion?

3:54:40Yeah, because I heard a hundred and eighty days be but with that little friendly amendment. I heard it was a hundred and eighty days before the first hearing. I wanna make sure that my team grabs. No

3:54:49no no no no no no. You're breaking uh wait.

3:54:52Getting

3:54:52confused

3:54:53with it somehow.

3:54:54No. Hundred and eight it's gonna be a hundred and eighty Hundred and eighty days is the length of the moratorium from the date

3:55:04Of the first public hearing.

3:55:06When will the first public hearing be?

3:55:09Two weeks. No.

3:55:14Oh no no no no no no no the moratorium no every time you do the

3:55:19research on the moratorium. The same thing that's the date he asked. Yeah. He wanted to know how long it would take us to do the research so that the moratorium could extend past

3:55:27yeah

3:55:27how long it would take to do the research. But getting the moratorium in place is you know Plan Commission and then two board hearings to do that. Same thing you did with the public donors and all that. So and draft it. So

3:55:39probably ninety days.

3:55:41Yeah. Yeah. It's what you did with the storage units because you they had to you know, you instructed them to go and do the research and bring it back to you. So But your hearings came within a month or two weeks.

3:55:54Okay. I yeah, uh if I may, Mr. Chairman M the preparation for the Moratorium considering the process to the county attorney's point. It's probably ninety days maybe a little longer than that given the whatever the timelines are to line things up. um to get them to the right hearings. Um but I do want to note that There's a limit to the geographic area that's been defined, but I'm not quite clear about what the problem that needs to be defined in the moratorium.

3:56:24In the case of the self storage, there was the argument of the uh preserving the economic development potential along the corridors. That was clearly identified in that in that uh directive when we were told to bring forward a moratorium on that. So I I guess my question would be is w what is the problem? that the moratorium addresses.

3:56:45What's the benefit that the moratorium is providing? This is

3:56:49What what we did we gave you the time to go research how many current entitlements that we have in that area.

3:56:58From RISC down to 41.

3:57:01Right. That's the

3:57:01geographic. And you're gonna bring that north so we

3:57:04can make a solid decision moving forward.

3:57:07So if it's not in the urban area you wouldn't have that, right?

3:57:09It stays there.

3:57:10Is that what you're saying?

3:57:14So

3:57:14I think the problem that the that you're trying to address is the oversaturation of multifamily perceived oversaturation of multifamily in the area you have described and whether or not the county needs additional regulations on multifamily So that that doesn't continue going forward.

3:57:34Right. And this is the time we're giving staff to go ahead and do that research and bring that due diligence and bring that information back to us so we can make a a logical and sensible. Just give us further direction once you have

3:57:45once you know the information.

3:57:47So you stated you think it's gonna take 90 days to bring what I just what we just talked about back to us?

3:57:54No no what I I was referring to the process itself.

3:58:01Generally, my My experience has been that it's taken about 90 days to the start of a land development code amendment to the end of a land development code amendment once it's ready.

3:58:14Okay.

3:58:15And so this is relatively a simple I mean it's The Moratorium. The moratorium is simple. The solution is not. Yes. I believe

3:58:26the moratorium. Yes. Okay. All right. Motion by Mr. Moore. Yeah.

3:58:31I would like to have the motion stated on the record. Well, I've we've done it

3:58:34like three

3:58:34times.

3:58:35I know, but I wanna make sure it's clear 'cause we're keeping it for the record. I hear what you're saying, Mr. Steinsnyder. The moratorium is for

3:58:48The moratorium is for but what's

3:58:52what is

3:58:52the they they have they they I'm I'm sorry ma'am but They have it on record. They're recording it right now. If you need it if you need to put it back in the record, you just need to listen to what the statements we made and and the motion that was made. No we're

3:59:08not. Can you repeat the motion, please? Thank you, sir. Commissioner.

3:59:14With the with the uh with the amendment. So we're uh make I'm gonna make it simple. We're doing so the the the motion is to do a moratorium And rezoning for multifamily apartment multifamily multifamily I'm sorry multifamily from the corner of you the the

3:59:36northern corner of US 41 to the southern corner of State Road 52 not to include State road fifty-two going.

3:59:50East. All the way up to Bruce B. Downs. And also including Wesley Chapel Boulevard and all areas in between that would be

4:00:04South of fifty two.

4:00:08Yeah, south of fifty two, west of seventy-five, south of the little piece of Wesley Chapel Boulevard, then west of Breesby Downs and north of fifty four.

4:00:16It's not the easiest to state that for the record. That's why I was trying to use a map. I I I have that.

4:00:23The boundaries was clear. It was um the moratorium in the hundred and eighty days is an in addition. More included

4:00:30into your motion. It shouldn't be included in the motion. Right. About the one eighty. Okay. That would be in the final ordinance to be in the motion. That's right. So I want to make it clear. They can decide how long they want. the ordinance m moratorium to be when it gets here. Yeah.

4:00:52On the day of the first public hearing. It would be retroactive the day of the first public hearing.

4:00:58Now The only thing you didn't have in your motion this time that you did the first time was conditional

4:01:03uses. And C Yes. So I'm sorry, say it one more time.

4:01:07C two conditional use. You only say multifamily homes. You didn't say multifamily homes c or conditional use, C two.

4:01:15Reasonable multifamily right. Reasoning

4:01:20or multifamily.

4:01:21Yes.

4:01:22Thank you.

4:01:23Okay.

4:01:25And we got a second.

4:01:29I don't

4:01:29think.

4:01:30Thank you.

4:01:33My row call vote.

4:01:35District two, Commissioner Oakley. District three, Commissioner Starkey. No. District four, Commissioner Fitzpatrick. Aye. District five, Commissioner Mariano.

4:01:43Aye.

4:01:45District One, Chairman Oakley. Oh.

4:01:48Uh motion passed three to two.

4:01:57Is that everything? That's all clear?

4:01:59That's that's all we got.

4:02:01Clear as much. So I think we're good.

4:02:03That was a long one today.

4:02:05Oh yeah.

4:02:08That's