Zoning Amendment (Consent) – New River LTD Pasco, Houck Corporation/New River Houck – Change in Zoning from a C-2 General Commercial District to an MF-1 Multiple-Family Medium Density District – South Central Pasco County – On the Southeast Corner of the Intersection of State Road 54 and Ashton Oaks Boulevard – Containing Approximately 28.10 Acres
What the county recorded
Staff recommendation
Approve
DispositionApproved
Approved Staff’s recommendation by a roll call vote with Commissioner Mariano voting nay.
The source document
The county’s agenda for Board of County Commissioners, Mar 12, 2024
The published PDF, as served by the county. This item is one entry in it.
The county’s minutes for Board of County Commissioners, Mar 12, 2024
The published PDF, as served by the county. This item is one entry in it.
This case, across meetings
PEG-24-7756 in full →Heard once. PEG-24-7756 appears on no other agenda in the archive.
- Mar 12, 2024BoardP62▶Approvedthis item
What was said
Machine transcription of 27m of recording, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 96% of 163 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.
I think sixty two.
P sixty two.
Yes, Mr. Chairman.
So the reason I pulled it is I looked at the Declaration of Covenants of Conditions and Restrictions and on section number three it says the driveway width should be a maximum of two feet wider in total than the garage door width. This is something that we talked about at the commission level. There's no room to the side. You gotta walk in your grass to get out. And I wanted to see it to to be the
maximum of four feet. So you have two feet on both sides to make it easy for someone to be able to get out of the car, walk up the side and get out there to get into their house. That was the first one. Second one, um On V, it says town home products with one car garages, so you'll have one car driveways.
Yeah. Well
if you're gonna have one person come visit you, and let's face it, most garages are gonna get filled up with other stuff anyway, there's gonna be nowhere to park. So and I thought we had talked about having driveways long enough for two cars. So why we put these conditions in I don't know but that's my objection to it.
I will tell you why and I'm happy to show you the pictures if I can find them here. Um and we went through this deal with uh Tampa Bay Builders Association on what was the right amount of pavement in front of these and if you have a one car garage and two lanes of pavement It's just all concrete in the front. And I'll show you those pictures if you want to see them from the preserve. to remind you what they look like and they look like ghetto. Get him.
So what they're supposed to do is have pay uh parking pl uh accessory parking places around the property. But this is why I don't like front loaded town homes. I don't I think they should be rear loaded. But I'm gonna I'll let them come up but I'm gonna show you a picture.
Okay. Ms. Wilhard or
Yes, ma'am.
Good afternoon. Barbara Wilhite, [address removed]. I'll
drop it.
Um this is PM twenty six, which is what you all adopted. You've been
sworn?
Yes, I've been sworn. Thank you. This is PM twenty six which the board adopted after much deliberation and back and forth and balancing things with the T B B A. I represent builders. I represent a property owner. I held off we held off my the property owners representative myself from moving this forward so you could settle on what you wanted um in PM twenty-six and so that we could adopt it into this rezoning. So I I'd ask you not to retrade PM twenty-six on a site specific project,
especially when we have no builder here, we have no T V B A here, and these chan these changes do have ramifications. If you want to visit PM twenty six, I was that's fine. Um but we we did everything right here and we're at the end of the end of the road and would ask you not to on this specific matter try to change PM twenty six without having the right stakeholders in the room. Please.
Ms. Chairman Mariano. I'm fine to continue it, but the discussions we had Uh I'm sure we didn't agree on That we have length for for parking for Not just one car but two cars.
This this language is this language is in many, many documents. They've got approved.
Mm-hmm.
Oh
it didn't make it up I did not make it up for this particular project. This is language that's been approved over and over since PM twenty six was approved by this board.
So they Driveways Twenty six feet, is that what you're saying?
So that what it says is the driver way should be a maximum of two feet wider and taller than the driveway door the garage door width. That's what the language says. Yeah.
And there's a reason why and and I'm gonna look for that photo.
Right, I as I recall listening to the discussions, it was that balance between green space and pavement and functionality and driveways and that's what I recall the conversation with uh the builders' associations.
They worked long and hard on this. I'll send the photo. I'm gonna uh who was it that I sent it to? What's her name? Sonia. Sonia.
This is what we don't want.
Sonia toolbell. Toolbox? Oh, with the with that too? Sorry. Oh sorry, Sonia. Sonia Toolbell. No. I don't know why I own the oun the other Sonya's showing up. H what's your th?
There it is. Okay.
Sending that to you. Just to remind you
Well we don't want. And um Barbara, do you have other parking spaces in the complex for guests?
Again, PM twenty six covered all those items. Yes. And so we're we incorporated PM twenty six. We I do not have a builder. And we represent myself and Mr. Burner represent um the property owner. And we we've been at this for a while. We held off many, many multifamily apartment developers and worked with uh to the the point where we had the property to commit to plotted townhomes. So it's been quite a journey and then we held off to wait for PM twenty six because we wanted to see you guys settled in on what your standards were for townhomes. So we tried to uh do
everything right here.
Mr. Chairman Mariano part of the reason for me with reservation, we're going from commercial property to residential. Which generally goes against my flow. Yeah. But when we when we looked at this and I know we had a discussion about the the impervious situation, et cetera, how do you want to have it? I wanted to give the flexibility to the build that they'd be able to go if they wanted the extra two feet, if they thought it was good for their product. But as far as the length of the driveway, with vehicles come in, we talked about trucks, etc. You know, we we
talked about that. So I don't know when this changed or why it didn't change, but that was one of my strong concerns and I thought we had addressed at least the parking where it wasn't just gonna be a one-car thing. I mean I just don't see where you're gonna set it up. This is a big picture where
this is what happens when when you have the um single-car garage and two two-lane driveway. Um it there's no place to put any landscaping. That's why they worked hard with the Tampa Bay Builders Association um and um others to come up with a plan that It's quite specific on the ratios of green space to to um concrete. So um
Yeah I add about the commercial. So this land use has been changed to residential. This is our fourth public hearing on this matter. um our second one before you. You did change the the land use to residential. It was the zoning was what was called a um conflict zoning, which means the C two zoning preceded your comprehensive plan in the year nineteen ninety. And what the comp plan said was Is it commercial or is it residential because you had a commercial zoning that preceded a residential land use? In
this case your comp plan said This is not the appropriate place for commercial And so we couldn't change it to commercial. It had to be residential. So the COM plan was changed to allow for this project and that's gone to the the state and is effective now. So that just wanted to remind you the history about the 'cause I understand the issue with commercial when you see that, but that's the history.
Yeah, and and again I I'm aware of that, Mr. Chairman, but it's just a matter of again we're making a change. What do we want to end up with here? And I just don't want to see park people parking on the street nowhere to go. I mean I I I I've lived this situation with my girls when they were up in Orlando and no one had a parking spot. He had one car garage, one spot, and he had three girls living in the one in the in the apartment. Oh goodness. I mean just didn't make any sense.
You know what I would suggest is maybe is is a if you have a one car garage, maybe you're have a limited you can't have three bedrooms. I mean, maybe or or But I'm not o I'm not okay with concreting the whole front yard.
Well, that's the extreme that you're showing the picture of. That's not gonna happen even with what's in place now. That is something we do want to prevent. I've sorry I've seen that as well as we're driving around, but we're not gonna get that anyway. And the things we put in place are gonna help. to keep from getting that but again to me if you're gonna be w walking out of your Little narrow drive. Well you're gonna walk in your grass anyway, it's gonna It'd be tough getting in and out anyway. And give the b build the flexibility on that part, but again I haven't seen anything satisfied
with far as what what the parking situation is gonna be.
Well, so what's this gonna look like, Terry? Have y'all It's not gonna look like this picture, right? This project?
Well commissioners, this is why you did PM twenty six. This is why you spent all last year going debating and figuring out what you wanted to do for standards so that it wouldn't look like that. I don't have a builder so I can't render for you. But you did PM twenty six, spent a lot of time and we waited. held this project back so that you could settle on that and so that we could copy it verbatim into uh this deed restriction.
So Terry what what's the solution here? What we got anything written that tells us we gotta have so much green space in in these products?
Mr. Chairman Mari
Yeah.
So you the planning department adopted
Yes.
The memo twenty-six, PM twenty-six to address this scenario. Right. Ms. Will Hyde is representing that the deed restrictions reflect that memo. Commissioner Mariano doesn't wants to give them more flexibility than that or or wants uh I'll let him speak for himself. But But what's before you fixes this picture, it's my understanding. That's correct.
The the memo fixed that.
Memo fix is it. It won't
be to avoid this scenario. We we work together with the Board of County Commissioners and the industry and the planners and the planning uh department at the time to not repeat this by establishing these standards. And in the standards of PM twenty six, which I think are outlined in the in the agenda memo as well, there is A landscaping table that's provided therein to help guide the avoidance of what we see in this picture. And so the dimensions
that were crafted in that memorandum that are now incorporated into various deep restrictions and conditions of approval across many projects are these limitations on the final widths of driveways so that. That they don't over extend themselves and limit or make it impossible to install the landscaping that we're also requiring. So everything's been balanced and optimized in that sense within PM26. Just as
a point of reference for this particular property or the subject property here, it was always the case that the Comprehensive Plan had designated this as residential. Of future land use. The recent comprehensive plan amendment brought it to a Res VI designation. We attempted to correct the flu, so to speak, to make it for commercial, but none of the policies of the comprehensive plan would support the application of the commercial designation. And so because it was already residential,
we maintained and kept it as residential before adopted uh that it makes sense it made sense to increase the density to res six at the time because this is a major frontage. And this is where we tend to put uh more than single family detached. In other words, in this case townhouse. So that's why the PM twenty six standards are included in this
chairman. So keep in mind, I'm okay with going through with the zoning, etc., as far as going to the residential part of it. The way the property's situated, it's got some issues that are different. So I'm okay with that. I'm just making reference to it. But look the flexibility to go from two feet to four feet is something I talked about a long time ago. Um and again the town home products with one car garages, you could have a three bedroom place. Could be a two bedroom place even, right? And if you've got four
people living there. You're gonna have one parking spot and one garage space. It just doesn't work. And I and I haven't heard anything to say what's gonna cover it. Yeah. I mean I don't mind continuing so we can have more discussion to it, but I don't wanna see this going especially with that n condition number five.
Are there any other spaces for this?
Extra spaces? Yeah,
how many
what's
the rates? So you guys don't commissioners, I don't have a builder.
I don't have a builder.
I do not have a builder. I have a property owner. Um and we have again we waited for you to do PM twenty six. All of those things were debated and and you've settled on PM twenty six. You've approved until this moment. projects with these exact same standards in them, many of them since PM twenty six. So I can't help you today. I and I would ask you if you all wanted to go back and look at PM twenty six. you
can do so, but it's really not fair to this client. Yeah. This one gets picked to Debate DM twenty six.
This is this is a Euclidean straight zoning, so it defaults to whatever your land development code requirements are or this PM twenty six which is sort of above the land development code and that but but it's the same parking requirements that you would require of this of this type. Right. And if they only have one spot in front of their their townhome and it requir I and I don't
know the requirements, Leam may know the requirements or Terry off the top of their head, but if it requires one and a half spaces or two spaces That's what you've said.
and they're gonna have to make it up some place on the site if there's only one one spot in front of the Right. Run of the town.
We took care of that by requiring certain amount of other spaces within a development. In that memo. Are you guys trying to find that? Is that what's going on over there?
No, we were just checking the parking against the land development code.
I I don't know how to get the little man to drop onto the road anymore and bring up the views, the street views. It's like went away. But um, you know, we ad we addressed all this stuff and we addressed the extra parking 'cause I I I get it and if they If there's not enough then they're blocking the sidewalk and I'm telling you the solution to all this is a rear loaded town halls. It really is. Go with me there. Let's just do rear loaded
townhomes. wouldn't have this problem because they can pack park multiple cars on the back and then they can park a car on the street, it slows the traffic down, it's safer for everybody, and they look much better.
Again, Mr. Chairman, I think we uh discussed the parking little uh concerned staff doesn't have the answers for us. And if if this is the way it's going through, again, I wanted to see the flexibility from the get go. I don't recall it ever coming back to it to say we're not gonna do the flexibility. I know with the parking was a big issue and I don't think from the sound of it from staff I don't see it get it's resolved. Maybe there's something more common
Terry. Uh Mr Chairman for the parking uh question uh if you have a Two car garage on the unit. You'll have it you'll have two cars able to park in the garage, two cars to park on the driveway. That's four cars total. The land development code for uh townhomes is for single-family attached units. Um spaces per unit. So that those two spaces could be in the garage, and you'll have another
two spaces on the driveway too, depending on the length of that trip. Yeah. Um All of that would be deliberated and considered at the time of site plan review. Uh so that whatever is proposed must meet the parking requirements of the Land Development Code. We won't be able to do a variance per se on on the parking requirements.
Mr. Chairman? Yeah. He's not answering the question. The question comes to number five. What about the town home products with a one car garage? She'll have one car driveways. That's the issue.
Not a two car, one one car. In the one car scenario you would have you're still required two per unit. So it would be one car in the garage, one car in the driveway, too. What does
it have three people living there or four people living there? We are they got a park?
I don't
think
that I
don't think
we
manage
that
park. W but but but I'm saying that it's it was a discussion that came up with this board and I gave the specific example. My daughters were living in a three bedroom, one car garage, so you had the one parking spot in the garage, the one parking spot in the driveway, and someone had to run around trying to find a spot and when someone had to leave, if someone's car was in the garage, the other person had to come out, move the car and go. It's a disaster. Moving up and down the streets was super narrow too, wasn't it where apart? I mean literally we're gonna create that?
Is this in a college in a college town?
Yeah.
Yeah.
But it doesn't matter what it's called. It's called town or not. Where I lived before in the States Fort King. you would have like a three or four bedroom apartment. You'd have five or six cars. So it's um it's strange how, you know, you gather everybody's being subleast so all these guys are college students were or they work work. They all lived together but It's a disaster forest parking, so And
they end up parking in the streets. It's hard to go down the streets.
But I don't know how you correct that correctly. But
d yeah, you you cannot correct that with a front loaded town hall. You can't.
Yes you can.
You can't put six parking spaces in front of a two car garage.
What for?
Huh? Then the whole thing is the whole front yard is concrete.
Yeah.
You can't do it. They gotta
park somewhere.
Yeah, they gotta make some extra parking spaces or if you have six people in a three bedroom townhome you shouldn't be living there. They end up with shouldn't be allowed to have that many cars.
Mr. Chairman Mariano
we can't fix that problem.
Can't judge it. There there is a code requirement for visitor parking too. Uh it's point two five spaces per unit for visitor parking. Now we we have worked with various townhome developments at the site plan review stage to identify locations of opportunity where additional on-street parking, for example, can be accommodated. That has taken place in the past. So the the question is very much a site planning matter. And the code establishes the mi the the code required amount of
parking, and then we try to identify What more can be done within the confines of the Land Development Code to accomplish a good site plan?
Yeah, um another thing that happens with these is that if you if you wanted on street parking, someone's explained to me when you have the one car garage, if you have a two, two, one, one, two, two, and you wanna put have on street parking, there's not enough green space in between some of these places to do on street parking. So Maybe we just don't allow one car garage anymore.
Oh Muda?
So but no but you can't you can't make that rule now, but it's something that we have to
So what's
the primary border
on that one?
Um but for me it's not okay to pave the whole front of these townhouses. That is a look that we don't want.
Then make the buildings shorter and then put more s separation between them.
Make them reloaded and you won't have this problem.
I'm okay with that too. But this this is a disaster coming. You're creating a slum of the future. Nowhere to park.
Okay. So this is a public hearing, so uh does anyone here wish to speak to this item?
There's no one signed up.
And no one signed up? No, sir. Okay. The pleasure of the board.
Um just uh under discussion, I have a lot of homes in um the western side of the county. Where they have one car garages that aren't even garages anymore.
Yeah, storage units.
And they've got five trucks parked on the gr on the grass. It looks horrible. Horrible. The grass is dead. I could s next time you go to Amskills just look across the street and just see what people have done to their their homes. Horrible. So it's an interesting discussion. But I would not allow parking in your yard. Um but I don't also don't want them to pave their whole yard either, so it's a problem.
Mr. Chairman M okay. So I mean you can you can go to a lot of places in West Pasco, a lot of those little places were built for retirees, two bedroom houses, one car garage. One car driveway. And all over those places the families have moved in.
Yeah.
Right? And now what have you got? You got all sorts of people parking
all over
there. Code enforcement nightmare. Night nightmare. So putting something like this with that one condition in there, you're encouraging that same thing to happen again because later on when they get crowded, there's nowhere else to park. Where are they going to park? Just like they do at the other places, right in the grass.
Well if I was someone renting um a The an apartment and there were gonna be three drivers in it, I wouldn't get a one car garage, I'd get the two car garage.
With the other choice. So
are all these one one car garages?
She doesn't
have a plan yet.
No, there's no plan. So
the the plan is to follow exactly what you told us to follow.
That's when we would be doing it you won't see
the site, but the staff will. Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm sorry.
Okay.
We we waited, 'cause I didn't have a builder. We waited for you to do PM twenty six so we could get to this day.
Mr Chairman? Yes. I I very much appreciate Commissioner's point, Commissioner Starkey's point, but we worked quagmire and Ms. Wyatt and our client they waited as we went through the changes and we fought pretty doggone hard to stiff our multifamily developers to come and take take this piece. It's been what over a year or so that we've been working through this with patient and the landscaping standards and the parking w everything that goes into
it. I just knowing the history to get to hear in the negotiations that took place I would I would likely support this just due to the the the amount of work that's gone into it. I don't know if there's a way if we approve it a verbal whatever county attorney to to incorporate Commissioner Mariano's concerns and some of Commissioner Starkey's concerns to avoid the potential of what's
being described. I'd like to do that, but we This project has incorporated, you know, all of all of the board concerns and the comments that we that we worked with with TBBA and um to to and including the the residents, uh the neighbors there, they they weren't really overly excited if I recall right, that they with commercial potentially coming in and they definitely didn't want to see multifamily and so the townhomes were a good fit here. So I'll just leave my statement at
that.
Okay. Pas of the board.
Um Uh Can I ask a question on that? That's a Tico. Was that a Tiko?
um easement in the part of that property. It's s yeah, so um so you can't build on that, right? That's just part of the property, Barbara?
Yeah. But we did, Commissioner Oakley took your comments when we talked about this last time about potential trail. And so he took it back, you know, it's whatever public access opportunity to
Right, and I'm a friend of mine's on the board of Amira which is Tico's parent company and I'm trying to see if they'll be amenable to opening up uh property for uh trails, but I I would be supporting this as well.
Yeah, the Commissioner is a Duke easement, we can't build on it.
Duke? Duke. They're harder. Well, I don't know. I haven't tried going through T.
But you did I mean, Commissioner Starkey met with you, do you did point that out to staff with maybe an opportunity there for their Charles program?
Yeah. Okay.
Okay.
It's just that the the property boundary cover uh goes past it.
Well, because it's the easement, so it would Yeah. Yeah, it's not fee.
Right.
All right. So move approval.
Second.
Motion and the second roll call vote.
District two, Commissioner Weightman. Aye. District three, Commissioner Starkey. Aye. District four, Commissioner Bradford.
Mm-hmm.
District five, Commissioner Mariano. Nay. District One, Chairman Oakley.
Alright. Motion pass four one. Move on to um