An Ordinance By The Pasco County Board Of County Commissioners Amending The Pasco County Land Development Code; Section 503 A-C Agricultural District; Section 504 AC-1 Agricultural District; Section 505 A-R Agricultural-Residential District; Section 506 AR-1 Agricultural-Residential District; Section 507 AR-5 Agricultural-Residential District; Section 509 E-R Estate Residential District; Section 510 ER-2 Estate Residential District; Section 512 R-1MH Single-Family/Mobile Home District; Section 514 R-1 Rural Density Residential District; Section 515 R-2 Low Density Residential District; Section 516 R-3 Medium Density Residential District; Section 517 R-4 High Density Residential District; Section 530.3 Construction Of Accessory Buildings And Structures; Creating New Section 530.24 Accessory Dwelling Units; Appendix A Definitions; And Other Sections, As Necessary, For Internal Consistency; Providing For Applicability; Repealer; Providing For Severability; Inclusion Into The Land Development Code, And An Effective Date.

10:41P thirty six, we have approved publication of the hearing of this matter in the February 5th, 2025 edition of the TAF debate title.

10:51Item P 36 is PDE 250103. I will read the name of the ordinance and then there will be a presentation for the record. In ordinance by the Pasco County Board of County Commissioners, amending the Pasco County Land Development Code, Section 503 AC Agricultural District, Section 504 AC1 Agricultural District, Section 505 AR Agricultural Residential Districts. Section 506 AR1 Agricultural Residential District Section 507 AR5 Agricultural

11:21Residential District Section 509 ER Estate Residential District Section 510 ER2 Estate Residential District Section 512 R1 MH Single Family Mobile Home District Section 514 R1 Rural Density Residential District Section 515 R2 Low Density District District District Density Residential District Section 516, R3, Medium Density Residential District, Section 517, R4, High Density Residential District, Section 530.3, construction of accessory buildings and

11:51structures, creating new section 530.24, accessory dwelling units, appendix A definitions, and other sections as necessary for internal consistency, providing for applicability repealer, providing for server ability. Inclusion into the land development code and an effective date. There's no action on this item. This is the first hearing, and I'll turn the mic over to Mr. Patrick Dutter.

12:15All right. Uh good afternoon. How's it going? Alright, so uh accessory dwelling units, I think long overdue.

12:23Oh, I'm sorry, uh Patrick Dutter, uh Planning, Development, Economic Growth. Uh so long overdue, uh accessory dwelling units. So I'm gonna read through um just some of the language that we have written thus far, uh looking for feedback. Again, uh this is not an adoption hearing. We're just looking for feedback at this point in time. So, what is an ADU? An accessory dwelling unit is an ancillary or secondary living unit that has separate kitchen, bathroom, and sleeping area. The ADU may be a separate and detached structure attached to the principal structure, a repurposed existing space within

12:53the principal structure, new space within the principal structure constructed simultaneously with the principal structure, and apartment over a garage or similar structural form. ADUs may be approved. after the construction of the principal structure or as a simultaneous approval with the construction of principal structure um or or sorry or with the new dwelling unit. ADUs may or may not be deemed affordable housing. So why do we want to permit ADUs? Uh I think there was a board workshop given I think almost a year ago now talking about affordable housing issues and ADUs

13:23were one of those uh items that were highlighted as something that can help with affordable housing. But ADUs are intended to provide additional housing ancillary to the principal dwelling unit to increase housing opportunities, promote mixed-income neighborhoods, encourage infill development, address the missing middle housing types, address affordable housing needs, and provide housing opportunities to extended families. And then where should we permit ADUs, zoning districts that allow single-family dwelling units, and in those portions of MPUDs that have single-family dwelling units as principal permitted uses? Mm-hmm. So what other local

13:54governments have ADUs? Uh Hillsborough County, Penellas County, Polk County, Sumter County, a whole lot of other counties permit uh accessory dwelling units. Um and also uh Pasco County. Pasco County has accessory dwelling units in the county. It's just in very specific MPUDs. Like Longleaf is a great example. Longleaf has some ADUs uh in that community. So it's not foreign to us either. Um we actually there was some concern about how many ADUs we would uh See in the county because there were concerns

14:24that we would see a whole influx of accessory dwelling units coming into the county. We reached out to our neighbors and generally it was for a year between a hundred to two hundred. So it's not an overwhelming amount of accessory dwelling units. Um but you know there are some some decent numbers. Um so that's kind of the numbers our neighbors were looking at. Hillsborough and Penellus obviously more so than Polk and Sumter. So into the dimensional standards. So for the minimum size, we're just going to allow the Florida building code to

14:54dictate what the minimum size is going to be there. For the maximum, we're proposing currently 900 square feet. For the lot coverage, the ADU cannot exceed the coverage of the current zoning district. For MPUDs that make a distinction between principal structure and accessory structure lock coverages, the lock coverages shall be combined. So oftentimes we have accessory structure is allowed a certain amount of coverage and your principal structure a certain amount. We're just combining that number. Uh for height, uh they shall not exceed the height limitations

15:24of the current zoning district for which it sits. Setbacks, the ADU shall comply with the applicable principal structure district setbacks. So just to be clear, we have smaller setbacks for accessory structures, but in that these are going to be dwelling units, we wanted them to follow that of the principal units on the site. Um and then we want to provide some flexibility, right? Because not every site is the same and we have some people that may want to exceed the size of our minimum or sorry our maximum of the ADU

15:55or uh maybe someone wanted to exceed the height for a certain reason. We're gonna provide the ability for someone to apply for a special exception to deviate from those requirements, right? Because if we can't get every scenario. So, some additional development standards for uh ADUs, uh parking. Uh so we're providing uh parking is provided on-site unless on-street parking is permitted in the neighborhood. Um the required number of spaces is going to be persuadant to our current existing code, so nothing crazy there. Uh the

16:25location of an ADU uh may be within a single-family dwelling or with a separate entrance or a separate structure. So people might want to convert their garage that's part of their existing unit. Assuming they cl uh enclose the garage, they can have it basically attached to their existing unit. In terms of utilities, they may be required to connect to existing water, sewer, electric, and utility providers. And then if it's in an area that uh does not have well is reliant on Well and Septic, they'll need a letter from the Florida Department of Health for

16:55connecting that additional ADU.

16:58Uh continued development standards. Uh so these ADUs need to be on fixed foundations. ADUs must be built on a permanent fixed foundation. This means the unit must be on poured footers, stem walls, and poured piers or engineered slabs. So kind of trying to avoid mobile homes and single family districts, essentially. Garage conversions, I already mentioned about the garages. For garage conversions, the garage door shall be removed from it and then the building opening and closed. And then uh just uh a catch all the Florida building code. ADUs must comply with the Florida building code.

17:31And then some additional standards. You can only have one ADU permitted per lot. So you'll have your principal structure and then you'll have your one accessory dwelling unit, no more than that. Um they are going to uh we're proposing ADUs to be exempt from the comprehensive plan and zoning density calculations, including MPUDs. And we are also this was a Planning Commission request. So the Planning Commission requested that you know there with with the recent flooding that we experienced, especially

18:01back in October, that there are some areas in the county that maybe the infrastructure in relation to stormwater is not sufficient to support some additional dwelling units, even though they are accessory dwelling units. So we are working with our public work. and stormwater team to generate a map and similar to uh lot coverage and size, if you fell uh within one of the areas that was prone to heavy flooding or or flood issues, um you would also need to apply for a special exception and that would be reviewed by the Planning

18:31Commission as well.

18:34And that's where the map's going to be, hopefully, one day. Um some additional standards. Uh vacation rentals. Neither the primary dwelling nor the ADU can be vacation rentals unless 402.5.b is followed. So basically we already have uh some code that talks about vacation rentals that they'll need to follow. Um timing of construction, an ADU may be constructed with or after the construction of the principal dwelling unit. And subdividing land with an ADU. The ADU must remain on the principal dwelling unit's parcel. If a lot split

19:04occurs, all subdivision regulations and impact and mobility fees shall apply.

19:11And so that's basically the text that we're specifically adding for ADUs. A lot of the we had to basically change the some of the code sections to permit ADUs in the zoning districts. So some complementary adjustments. We added a definition of accessory dwelling unit to the appendix. We added ADU as a permitted accessory use in all districts that permit single-family homes. We combined principal and accessory lot coverages in those districts where This has not yet been accomplished. Most of them have. And uh we removed caretaker units from industrial establishments because they

19:41are covered in other Euclidean areas. And then we added a note that accessory buildings and structures shall not be constructed within an easement. And that's it and um open for comments, questions, discussion, um anything you want to talk about.

19:55Um Seth then Commissioner Oriana.

20:01Good to see you Patrick. First time letting your new role up here?

20:04What's

20:04that? First time in your new role up here?

20:06Uh yes it

20:06is.

20:09So you air the Airbnbs, uh you you you touched on it. We're gonna prohibit prohibit uh accessory dwelling units if if that home is classified as an Airbnb. I use that as an example because in the Land O' Lakes area, you know, going west. We struggle with the Airbnbs within the lakes communities and if these things are permitted there I can see them compounding some of the

20:39challenges that we have with the visitors and the disruptiveness that they tend to bring some of the areas.

20:48Yeah, we're not intending to prohibit. They just need to follow the existing so there's a a separate code section that talks about vacation rentals and a process you need to go through to become a vacation rental, like an Airbnb. Um so we're just pointing out specifically for people that hey this other section of the code exists for vacation rentals and there's a process there that you need to follow.

21:07So we can if we know So if they're a good actor and they're playing by the rules and they're registered. We can't say probably not a good idea for you to have an Airbnb as long as it's a registered Airbnb, because we know what's going on there, versus it being a true single family home, used as that, not a not a for-profit vacation spot.

21:30Uh I'm sorry, could you just re repeat the question more time? Sorry.

21:34I I understand I'm all for the ADUs, but using them appropriately. If we allow an ADU on a known registered Airbnb site that could compound some of the issues that we have with the Airbnbs and meaning you have more guests more challenges that the the the known I'm kind of looping everyone in together because the only way you can do it. If they're registered, do we allow those properties, if they're registered Airbnb,

22:04do we allow those properties to have accessory dwellings?

22:10Due to that challenge and I'm using specifically on our lakes where staff knows what I'm talking about. It's been pretty disruptful to the people who live there full time and they haven't been exactly the best neighbors. Sure. So there's pros and cons with everything that this is one of the challenges that I didn't know if

22:30we could share my own.

22:32Yes.

22:33Commissioner, I think if that if that's a policy decision for the board, if the board wishes to not allow them, if it's not being used as quote the reason you're adopting ADUs, which is to ha allow a family member to be there, to allow a dish cancel For whatever reason. But if but if if I think you could regul legally take the position that if They're using it as a rental unit as

23:03an Airbnb that we're not gonna compo legally or illegally, we're not gonna compound the problem.

23:10Thank

23:10you, County Attorney.

23:11Well Board members you've heard my concerns there, so

23:17It's

23:18up to us. Just just to give some additional background, thank you, Liam. Um so um the the process to have a vacation rental, I think, uh it's a conditional use requirement, so let's come in uh come in for a conditional use. I think in the last year we've only seen I think ten was Liam Devine, planning to

23:36build out a country. We have 5,000. Yeah.

23:39So yeah, you have a lot of un unregistered short-term vacation rentals. What they are required to go through a conditional use process. We only have about 10 registered and permitted in the county through through that conditional use process or through a platform. So all those other ones would be a violation of the land development code because they would have not received that conditional use.

24:03We do need to start getting those guys registered.

24:07Yeah.

24:08Just want to ask looking at that bolt real quick. Um the intent here is it says neither the primary dwelling nor the ADU can be a vacation on blood loss for tube like B is followed. Uh are you making the implicit assumption that at least one is is a residence? So for example, I have a home, I live in the ADU, I vacation own my house, or vice versa. The intent or it's to Commissioner Weightman. point is already compounding it by allowing now two.

24:36Yeah I think it was we're just trying to make the point that if either one were going to be a vacation rental that four oh two point five needed to be to follow. So follow

24:46Awesome.

24:54Madam Clerk? Uh Commissioner Oakley. I think it's good to just make sure that only one can be. be an ADU. I mean an ADU that's vacation rental.

25:06Only one of them can be a vacation rental, the other part push and cannot go.

25:13Okay. All right. Anything else that

25:16then incorporate do we have the the the notes, the gentleman who spoke earlier in the morning session public comment? Mobile homes. How how are they treated? Yeah, I mean say you have a mobile

25:29home would not

25:30on an acre or two or what have you. to Commissioner Mariano's point that he was we were talking about earlier, if we allow a certain footprint and they can have a second home, help them with impact fee or whatever. I mean it's still a home and there's people with sizable properties that can all over this county. I mean are we just going to ex exclude them and not give them an an opp opportunity? Just pig backing on what Commissioner Mariano was bringing up earlier. Um

26:02I don't think you were here for that, but Jack was way in the right-of-way.

26:05So yeah, I I might have missed it. So we're talking about potentially including mobile homes as potential uses?

26:11Well I would say

26:14you get larger pieces of property. And if they do have a mobile home You might have let's say it's and you and I'll and I'll talk about your nine hundred square feet which I think is too small as well. But you may have someone who's got a mobile home now and then they want to go build a home, let's say, on the same property. Let's say it's a five acre piece of property. They can meet all the setback requirements. Why wouldn't I want them to go and build an ADU on that property. And I wouldn't want a restriction being smaller.

26:41Huh? They build the ADU and then as they're building their future home.

26:48Um okay. Uh interest so I I'm not quite sure why we wouldn't want that to occur, but go ahead.

26:54I think some people might be misunderstanding why we're going w I mean the intent of this. This isn't to put Two homes on one lot.

27:06Maybe not your intent. But I'll go I'll give you the the story and we've talked with staff about this. We're trying to get it where people can actually have a home, someone else can build a home on the same property. The ADU is a good way to go forward. I think for all the smaller lots, et cetera, that you know, s sticking to a Um A tighter unit is is is good. But if I've got someone who's in a five or ten acre piece and they want to bring a family member on the property, And I it can be an A D use l let it be. I don't want to restrict it the

27:36way the size is set up to be in just nine hundred square feet. I may have someone who's got a twelve hundred square foot trailer, fifteen hundred square foot trailer. They want to build a home. Maybe they're gonna move in the home and then the kids are gonna move into the other one or the grandparents, whatever it may be. I want that flexibility built into this.

27:52So a and I think that's why we added some of the language about uh allowing for a special exception to uh and go over the nine hundred?

27:59But you you you create another step of the government for the special exception. I want to build build it in right now. We'll hit all of them where people have some flexibility with their homes. We got people that have been waiting as we've talked that are trying to do something similar to what we could accommodate here. Being that I've got this legislation here, I want to put that in play now. So when the zoning stuff comes up with the next detail, you can put that in there. But I want to set the What's

28:20keeping them from doing that now? to build another house on a five acre.

28:30Well they're still gonna have to follow the rules of the subdivision. But

28:33that's what five I want to give the exception to this here.

28:37This this prevents them from having to go rent a place potentially for a longer period of time. There's a lot of f flexibility. It allows people to use their property

28:48Mm

28:48more flexibility of use of their property. They s they stay in it and then they build their house and then they have their ADU and kids or whoever move in. That's the that's the whole premise kind of behind this is to give people more rights to their land.

29:02I I am in a hundred hundred percent uh uh in favor of ADUs. I been out trying to do this for over ten years. We did a development long leaf that has ADUs and every time developers come in to meet with me, I say if you do we're loaded you can easily add an a uh accessory dwelling unit over the garage a and it fits seamlessly into the neighborhood. What I don't wanna see is And it's c probably I mean Some of these districts where they're where you're taking a a lot with a mobile home on it and you had another mobile

29:32home on it. I mean that's not That's going backwards, not forwards. So Um I don't

29:43So I I I actually was gonna say I think that I think that we should encourage ADUs. Well done ADUs. And um And I would say I was having this discussion with David Um I don't want there to be impact fee. on certain sizes of ADUs because I want I want people to build 'em. And so I understand if you go to a certain size you're gonna have an impact with the school district. So I would say um A DU's

30:13m and I'm just guessing at a number seven a one bedroom and David said go by feet, not Bedrooms. So seven hundred and fifty feet maybe? I mean what's how mu how much is the space over garage typically? Or garage.

30:29Seven hundred fifty feet would cover that pretty well, I think. I think those should be a little bit more than a little bit. If they're on the same water meter and they don't have to have another meter, I don't think should a they should have any impact fee. Um, but when you're talking about taking a mobile home And add another one on it.

30:48I don't know, I think that's going backwards, not forwards.

30:52And and I I n I know I think probably both of you know, but just to state it, right? If if someone has a uh a home and then wants to have a second home on a five acre pro uh property, we do have the mechanism to do that, which is subdividing and platting. Um but I I know that can be also a little bit cumbersome.

31:10No.

31:13We have a gentleman who's got a Five acre parcel in Hudson on Connolly Road. I believe it's five acres. Wanted to add another unit in this house and he couldn't. I mean that was like three years ago. price has gone up, et cetera, so we're probably not gonna do it, but I want to give people the flexibility. No, you've got you've got different ways to look at it. Like they said, they o they only want these in single family districts. I think that's wrong.

31:40had all the A's with a circle on them.

31:42Yeah.

31:43Okay, which which now you said single family so you addressed it with with our ordinance. But I want to have people if they're in let's say R four. Make it to where they can be the smaller. If you want. But if they're in a large And and it could be a five acre parcel, could be a ten acre parcel. Let them go figure out what they want to go do. You might have this you know there's many situations. You can have someone who's got let's say a a twelve hundred foot trailer, maybe a twelve hundred foot home, and they want to put another unit on there. And maybe that unit.

32:11What do you mean by unit on there? On the house or on the lot?

32:14On the lot. Okay,

32:15you wanna add a cottage, not another house. This is not this is this is not meant to be a second house.

32:22In your intention it's not meant to be a second house, but I'm telling you from my get-go with a conversation.

32:26That's something different than this. I want to

32:29incorporate it until we could get the stuff squared away.

32:31Well I no I know.

32:32I mean if if I've got someone who's got a mobile home.

32:36If I've got someone who's got a mobile home Right. And it's called twelve hundred square feet. Now they want to go build a house in the same lot but keep the mobile home so a family member can move in there. What's wrong with that? Five acalot now. Not not R4. Five recolot. What's wrong with that process?

32:55There I I guess there's some areas in your d your neighborhood or your district where they got ten of 'em on there that we don't even care, I guess.

33:06No, I think we care, but I'm talking about a specific situation which we're gonna address right now with another.

33:15So for example, Moon Lake area. They're all half acre plus areas. And

33:20you're gonna add more of that to that?

33:22It would allow them To build They were to get an ADU. It I think it'll leak to to Dim. Bedaring area and it allow them to get their ADU They're staying in that as they're figuring out situation you know, their their situation one. It just gives people the the flexibility to do more with their property.

33:47I I I think you are opening up a Pandora's box to a slump.

33:54How if they have to be on a slab. I mean look at all

33:58the construction. An ADU is a little cute cottage in the backyard or a apartment over the garage. It's not

34:08A trailer next to a trailer. I mean

34:10it would be but the rules on this state s slab, uh foundation, Florida Building Code, it it says how the structure is supposed to be built.

34:19Am I a misunderstanding are they not going to be able to do that? It's going to be an infinite door.

34:25Did I not hear that?

34:26Well I I think with our language we are attempting to limit the trailers and and mobile homes um doing site build uh AD. Yes,

34:34absolutely.

34:38Okay. Yeah. So then you're comfortable Let's say there's a mobile in the property and someone's gonna build a home or another structure On slab on grade to the conditions that you're okay with that.

34:49No, I I think the mobile

34:53And and

34:54Let's take some pictures of what those look like.

34:57I get a I got a five foot acre lot. I've got a mobile home on it, and I want to go build another home that's twenty five hundred, maybe thirty five hundred square feet on the same property. What's wrong with doing that?

35:08So I'll I'll just add two one one of the No no

35:10I want her to answer.

35:11Okay, sorry.

35:12That's that's not the intent is to have two families Your intent. That that is what an a an ADU is not to families living where one was living, that's something different. An ADU is is m usually a one maximum two bedroom. Let's say you have uh a parent who um need you wanna put a little cottage in the backyard? We had one in my house in Miami. Um And uh

35:42you need There need a care you need a caregiver for a parent that wants to live on your property, not go into ALF. So maximum two bedroom. is is usually what an A D is. Very rarely are they two bedroom. They're usually one bedroom or or Or a grape.

36:05Right. What? And they're not usually on a five acres in a small tight community. We're talking about I'm trying to expand it to make it more flexible.

36:12That is not an that's not a few.

36:13I'm serving a countywide function here, not just one little area. One little one little cu cute little area. I'm looking to try to take care of everybody in the county with this ordinance. You can't

36:23Then I want full impact fee on that. Hundred percent infect peace. 'Cause that is something totally different than what we're trying to do here. Can can one of you guys speak to what typically is an ADU? Are we veering off from what we started out to do?

36:40Um I I guess one caveat I will add is um t to to their points. Uh other jurisdictions have size ranges that go from four like smaller cities, four hundred, five hundred to um larger counties. The I've seen some up go to thirteen, fourteen hundred square feet. So size ranges can vary depending on location. But I will say that w We are um We're we're trying to um The density restriction, right? We're we're saying these things don't count towards density.

37:11I think the the larger you make these and the bigger the impact these things have, the argument doesn't get as strong, uh isn't as strong once these things become larger buildings. So if we're if we're trying to have ADUs be exempt from the density requirements, but it's a three thousand square foot building, w that it that might be a little bit of a struggle.

37:33So if you do if you do a compromise position to that. So let's say you get a fifteen hundred foot unit now. And you're gonna go build a twenty five hundred unit up. Give 'em a credit for the twelve hundred next to the twenty five. Now your offset's the same.

37:50You have different levels of permitting di imp impact fee. I think the cutoff is like fifteen hundred. Once you're over fifteen hundred, if you hire that there's a fee, it doesn't go above that number. If you give a credit for the baseline number of however many square foot, take it off the other unit that comes in and then you can assess your impact fee from that.

38:13Madam Chairman Mariano. Don't usually do this, but I'll try and help. Um the American Planning Association definition of an accessory dwelling unit. An accessory dwelling unit ADU is a smaller independent residential dwelling unit located on the same lot as a standalone, i.e. detached single family home. ADUs go by many different names throughout the US, including accessory apartments, secondary suites, Granny

38:43Flats ADUs can be converted portions of existing homes, internal ADUs, Additions to new or existing homes, i.e. attached ADUs, or standalone accessory structures or converted pro portions of existing standalone accessory structures I've already detached eighty years.

39:05But it doesn't say it's a second house or second

39:10full house. So by definition it clearly should not be bigger than the primary structure. Yes. Um That would be something other than an accessory dwelling unit. But

39:22that's that's another home. Not an accessory. That's n home number two. Right? I mean Right. See Liam Liam's agreeing with me. You he can say that 'cause he's leaving now.

39:40Um I I are any of you guys or any of you guys familiar with ADUs that could come up and help this board understand them. Take a poll. Why? Because I don't think You know, I'm trying to get you guys to go to U L I or CNU or somewhere and get educated on some of this stuff and it's really frustrating. That's right. You're talking about two houses on a lot and I'm talking about an a a a an accessory

40:10dwelling unit. And I think it's two different things.

40:13Madam Chair.

40:14Yeah.

40:15And hearing the county attorney's definition, I'm not gonna argue the point of what DEDU is, but I will tell you my staff conversations I'm a little disappointed this didn't come out and we didn't like try to work 'cause you know I'm trying to work on people that are trying to build a home with another home on there and bring something forward for that. So I'll say this. It's after we get done with this conversation, maybe in committee reports, I want to bring it up. That's what I'm trying to accomplish. I was given thoughts where this could be modified to make that work. Um I'm

40:45hearing differently now, but I I do want to make sure we can work with the people that live here. Five, ten acre parcels that want to build another home, have a family member there. And maybe it's bigger, bigger to smaller or smaller to bigger, but I want people to be able to do something with their property instead of just having to sell developers because they can't keep on going where they want to live.

41:04Yeah, I I think we recognize what what you're talking about, our our subdivision regulations and plotting regulations are are somewhat cumbersome and can be difficult. Um I we are actively, I think, trying to meet and work on making that process more efficient and quicker. Um so those scenarios that you're describing won't take years.

41:24And I and I agree with you. I I'll give you an example. Um you know what you know remember Jose? Do you know Jose the real estate guy? Um so there there was a home that David Williams built in a subdivision off of Plath. I can't Williamsburg maybe? Big giant beautiful home. And um a actually a producer from LA bought it so And they wanted to build a little a little two bedroom cottage in the back. for when they had family visit from California. And Because

41:55that subdivision and it is fairly big lots in there. had already been subdivided so many times, they could not add A little guest cottage. And so what they end ended up having to do was build a walkway to the guest cottage and that was all the same house. If it's attached. I mean, it's kinda silly. So Um So I I do think there's things that we need to fix because they should have been allowed to do that without having to

42:25Subdivide plat and whatever that is. Um So I I'm in agreement with you on some things but I'm not in agreement with you on on your big picture. On this one. On this particular one. And I don't want to slow this down because I'm trying to encourage people to add these little apartments. Over their garages. You're and um And we have a developer in here doing a lot of rear loaded product. And they have a great opportunity to add these and

42:56I say if they're you know, seven hundred and fifty or below, I don't think it should be any impact fee. So if it's a one bedroom or or Or a a uh In just a little cottage, I don't think there's any impact.

43:09Well why can't we just do the nine hundred like he was proposing and then if they needed a special exception then they would get the impact fee.

43:17I'm thinking of uh the house that my daughter's renting. Uh um right. They're moving in in a couple of weeks. It's a little cottage in New Port Richey. And it's it's eight hundred square feet. But it's it's two bedrooms, a living room, a kitchen, a bathroom, a little laundry That's kind of to me to not charge any impact fee that's kind of pushing it. I At some point the school district's gonna want a school impact fee and there may be more impact to the neighborhood. I don't know what that number is. I probably should have

43:47asked before this meeting what the right number is to be where we don't charge any impact impacts. Impact fees. Um but David said don't go by bedrooms, he said go by feet. So

44:01just

44:01throwing out a smaller one than nine hundred feet.

44:03A ADUs currently have a reduced rate. Um

44:06I know. But it's not it's still something.

44:09So I think we'd have to ask the school district what number they'd be comfortable with in terms of Basically a de minimis threshold where th that we shouldn't assess any impact fee. Maybe Liam knows.

44:20I was just trying I was trying to get to a one bedroom because a family is not gonna move into a one bedroom.

44:26So the discussion of Planning Commission was they'd be assessed a lower rate, which is the multifamily rate. There is a lower school impact fee for smaller the same rate as an apartment.

44:35It's still significant.

44:36But it's still a fee. So if you wanted to exempt them entirely My biggest concern is schools. I mean I in theory parks and library there's already a reduced fee for mobility, but we could reduce that further as part of our update. My biggest concern is schools because that's not just us, that's the school district too. I don't want to be our board to be just saying they're exempt from school impact fee without conferring with the school district on what number what square footage they'd feel comfortable. There's basically a The minimum impact of the school district, and therefore we can exempt them entirely. I

45:07don't think it's 900 square feet, I'll be honest with you. I'm not even sure if it's 750. But I'd have to talk to Chris Williams about that.

45:14Well, we're just we're in discussion today.

45:16But we can we can between now and the final public hearing we can have that discussion with the school district.

45:20What's your thoughts on that?

45:24Well you look right first. Huh?

45:28Um my thoughts are this as far as I I want to give flip people flexibility. If they want to go to twelve hundred, so be it. If you wanna if you wanna look at well if you if you wanna look at the numbers over the impact fee, so be it. But give the people the option. I mean you could be in a three thousand square foot home and you want to go over the top of the garage, you may have to take part of the other room and go back and it may turn up to twelve hundred feet and you may get your Son and daughter coming in with their baby, they want to live above you for a year or two while they're trying to get their self squared away, whatever the case

45:59may be. Maybe family members or grandparents that want to come down for like six months a year and you want to c create that, but they need livable space to go. And my parents separately both live in like twelve hundred square foot units. They're both two bedroom. But if they had someone coming down, they can accommodate 'em and not just crush them out of space either. So I want to give I want to give the flexibility.

46:20To me twelve hundred's too big, that's that's another house. That's a house.

46:26You're being taxed on it. Property appraisers are gonna name you. You're gonna be paying on it one way or another. It's not like it's a coupon. You're that person's gonna be paying permitting and you name it. It's not what the county's gonna fee 'em to death. That we're gonna be taxed on it, so it's not like they're getting a all pass on paying any of the coffers.

46:47You know what what I don't wanna see is a twelve hundred Yeah. Sorry, square foot trailer, put another twelve hundred square foot trailer on their property and call it Native U.

47:00Well in that scenario your

47:01scenario can happen.

47:02Well I was talking about five acre lots, ten acre lots. We're now talking about ADUs as the county attorney described it, so it's a different world now.

47:13Could that happen in what he's

47:16I I I think the we're back to the um finished floor, the the mobile homes I think is is out of the conversation at this point. So I think we're just talking about two units.

47:33Yeah. Um uh two two uh nine hundred square feet gives you, you know, the two bedroom, two bath, um full service kitchen.

47:42Nine hundred square feet would be the max, I think. That's a two and that my daughter's running eight hundred square feet. It's two bedrooms, a bathroom, a kitchen, living room, dining room.

47:53And I know the answer isn't the best answer, but there is a mechanism currently to allow you to exceed that if uh yes it is another process that it can be time consuming, but there is something to go above that.

48:06I want to make it easy. I want to give people flexibility.

48:09I I understand.

48:09Well nine hundred is a pretty good size.

48:14What about architectural details?

48:17Um for well, I we don't enforce architectural details, at least for Euclidean, for M P U D we would defer to the MPUD if there was was anything there.

48:30I think the commissioner is asking. Do you is there anything in the ADU ordinance that would have an architectural detail?

48:39Some places make a match the architecture vernacular of that of the current house.

48:45I mean you don't

48:46we're gonna be changing the MPV Conditions to talk about.

48:50actually we're trying to do opposite M Ps it to have any different

48:54things. You may be forgetting that you pre we're preempted on that issue. Oh, that's true. Well remember the state law changed and we Well

49:01did it preempt an ADU specifically?

49:04It preempted our ability to regulate architecture on single family dwellings. So this is arguably a single family dwelling. Now with the M PUDs they're right, they sometimes voluntarily do architectural Requirements, but that's something the developer proposes voluntarily to get their MPD approved.

49:26But you remember this the the state preemption on this issue?

49:29Yeah.

49:32Adding to that.

49:38You know, be careful what we need to be careful.

49:43Well Chair, I think I think I think Patrick he hears us. I think we're wanna move forward to just just a reading today. Yep. Maybe set some off site meetings or what have you and see what you come up with in your brainstorm room and then when we bring it back have something, you know. For final that way for the for the sake of time. I I think we're all on the same team here and agree we need to move forward.

50:14Spend the next hour flushing out here. I think sure if we meet private you know individually and then go from there and do it.

50:21And um well we do want to take public comment. Um and for the record for my planners, maybe some architects. Andres Dwani's cousin rented our ADU in the backyard. She lived there for years.

50:32Madam Chair? Yeah. Just one quick question. On uh section F number two, um it says as far as the board quarters, stem walls, hoard piers, does it matter if it's board or metal?

50:43Um I do not know. Um I can get clarity on that. I relied on the building department for that so I can check with them.

50:50I I know some that do metal peers, so if you could put the flexibility in that would be good.

50:54Okay, got it.

51:00Are you taking public comment now?

51:02Yes. Okay. Would anyone like to speak to this? Come on up, Mr. Engineer.

51:13Good afternoon, board. Jeremy Couch, [address removed]. So I actually had this conversation with Denise Hernandez probably a year or two ago. Um one of the things I think you should consider is not requiring it to meet the principal setbacks. It kind of wipes out your ability to build about 90% of these. If they have to meet like a 20-foot rear yard and 10-foot side yard. If if the intent is to have garage apartments, garages can be

51:43built within five feet of the property lines. And so in theory, this small dwelling would be on top of that. And everywhere you look at Saint Pete's

51:54restrictions. Did we put restrictions in here on set that's the

51:57meet the principal structure? Which my neighbor can build a five thousand square foot metal building five foot from my property line. But can't put an air conditioner. And a sink and a dishwasher in there.

52:10Yeah, same with my neighborhood, Aristida.

52:13So that's a challenge.

52:14An accessory building, but it's

52:16an accessory building and it should meet accessory setbacks. Thank you.

52:21Um I did have a question on wait, does anyone else want to speak to this?

52:27Um I did have a question if you convert your garage Um to an accessory dwelling unit. It's not at the same elevation as the house. Is that an issue with flooding? Uh uh.

52:45I'm sorry, what was the question?

52:46If if you're allowing a garage conversion. Garages are lower. Um any flooding issues or floor height requirements?

52:56I would assume when the permit application came in through central permitting they'd be looking at finished floor and habitable space with the building permit application if they needed to change it.

53:05So if it's an existing house uh and they're not at the um current FEMA BFE? Um Do they have to bring the gr would they have to bring the new unit up or how does that I mean we need to compensate these things.

53:19Yeah, uh yes. And that's a um I don't specialize in building permitting, but I'm almost positive the answer is that they'll need to provide floodproofing um to to the unit. If anyone knows better than I do, feel free to speak up.

53:31All right. So these are just things we've got to flesh out between now and the next next hearing. Okay.

53:38Yeah. Right. And yes, but Florida building code. Um we have the language in there, so I I would think that yes, if they're trying to turn something that wasn't habitable into something that is habitable, the Florida building code would uh apply and then yes, they would have to make sure it's flood proof.

53:56Okay, well we're de taking the action then, right, today? Spirited discussion.

54:00Yes. Um may I I so yes, I I I hear there's some work to be done, but maybe some clearer direction on s because I I've heard a few things, so I just want to make sure that's um the direction I go in now is is the correct direction.

54:15What direction are you going?

54:16Well that I'm looking for clarity 'cause there's been a lot of communication and if there's

54:21a lot of things. Well, um I know I don't want twelve hundred square feet, so I I think we had some consensus at nine hundred. No.

54:32Ugly speak up over there. Where where are you?

54:36The consensus was if we went higher they were gonna look at the impact fee and talk with the school district and see what the opportunities with that were. So we could go higher but it may trigger some level of a fee or impact fee, but that's to be determined by getting counsel from the school district that we were going to explore that.

54:55I think a twelve twelve hundred is the size of a house and that is a different issue than building a little cottage in your backyard. So right? Yes.

55:06Not that I I thought this was about accessory houses, not another house being built on the on the same property. Right. And it would be either somehow connected to the main house by a sidewalk or or something to it, like if you had an outside garage. You'd change it, convert that over. But it wouldn't be this huge building. Right. And you wouldn't be allowing people to come in and build a bigger home than the original home. It'd be an accessory building

55:36only. So you're not allowing people to if you got a property that's five acres and you got a homeowner, you don't just bring out the fact that you uh put a larger home on there just because you you think it's an accessory, that's not an accessory. Thank you. So that that wouldn't be part of part of this uh issue right here. So the fact of it is is it's a smaller building. Like You're hearing you got elderly parents and they want to move near

56:07their family and their children so they can be the children can actually have take care of them and they live in this accessory uh building. Yeah. I thought that was the whole purpose. That is. Accessory building.

56:21I I I hear what you guys are saying. That it uh but that's a different issue. But then accessory tooling, yeah.

56:29Yeah, I hear what they're saying, but the fact of it is we're not putting this up so you got One for one house for five acres to put another home on five acres, that'd be two houses for five acres. This is not set up to do that and we're not allowing that. So this is only for one house and the fact that if you need an accessory unit, either for a child that's gotten injured or whatever needs extra care, but maybe wants their own little space. that's that's okay or

56:59if it's family I know in uh Pasco Trails there's a family out there waiting to get this done so they can build an accessory unit connected to their house that their parents could live in and they help take care of. That's what I thought about.

57:19That's three votes.

57:22Hang on.

57:22Okay, but we got I

57:24have

57:24a very important appointment at my thing, so I'm gonna

57:27keep this. So, Commissioner Oakley, so again, accepting the attorney's definition, I'm gonna work on the evidence for the other thing for bigger things, uh for big bigger properties. But as far as this goes, as far as like whether it be 900 or 1200, if you got a family, let's say, let's say they got a thirty five hundred Square foot home on five acres. Up in Trilby wherever it may be. And the parents want to come down, but they need room. And nine hundred's not going to be enough. You're gonna tell me that you would own a lumble out another three hundred feet if they wanted to go do

57:57it and willing to pay the fees?

58:00Well I think that's something we'd have to discuss at the time. Yeah.

58:08Yeah.

58:09I'm just trying to make it easy for 'em. But again, my whole perception of what this was going to be a talking to staff is different from what the intent of an a normal ADU is. I get that. If someone wants to get a birth bring an accessory dweller unit, they're on a big piece of property, they want to go to larger units, why keep them from if they get the room?

58:32I'm gonna show you some. You could take a walking tour in Long League.

58:37Um okay, we're gonna keep moving.

58:40Okay. Thank you for your time.

58:42Got some direct,

58:43you can

58:44keep

58:44talking before you leave.

58:45Um yes.

58:46Normally you announce when the second hearing is gonna be before you conclude.

58:51Okay. Uh yes, uh March twenty fifth, I believe.

58:55You the agenda memo says March twenty twenty fifth.

58:58No, don't do it that day because I won't be here.

59:03Jack

59:03will be

59:03checking. Move

59:04approval.

59:06Move approval March twenty fifth.

59:09Yeah.

59:10Okay.

59:13Uh I think so, but we'll have to Okay, we'll make it work. Okay. All right. Thank you.

59:19Good job, Patrick. Let's go.