Live Local tax exemption and demand letters

1:11:58Okay, live local

1:11:59back. Uh or take it off the floor and the table. And start and start again because I think there's a lot of con

1:12:09Commissioner Oakley went over what we'd already done. Trying to get the wall changed. We got lawsuits ready to go. We've started conditioning their new rezoning so they don't use the tax exemption. I guess the real question is what else would you like us to do? Um assuming those first three things are already in place in some way, shape or form. Uh we talked about limiting comp plan amendments for higher density projects. We talked about conditioning Some site plans if they're

1:12:40requesting relief from neighborhood parks or parking, conditioning those approvals. I g I guess we need some guidance on where else do you want us to go with Live Local?

1:12:48Well I've I've heard peop folks talk about a a moratorium something but I always personally I always feel like a moratorium is something you do when you don't have a real answer. And I think it probably would be interesting to do here waiting on the right answer for us to go forward. So it would help us, I think, by some time to be able to do the right thing for our citizens out here. So how do y'all feel about that?

1:13:17What to well I possibly

1:13:19moratorium.

1:13:20So let me See if we can get where we want without using that word. Um And David, you and I talked about this a little bit. that we can and I I I'm curious if it has to be a hundred percent or or just Depends on where they're located. Put certain conditions on any multifamily that comes in. For example the the three acre, you know, the one park per every hundred units, one acre park. I

1:13:50mean, are there things that we can do to to um

1:13:56get the outcome we want without a moratorium. For example, I would be okay if someone came in on nineteen and won and wanted to do something. And

1:14:03so I would say yes and no. Um if They're seeking a site plan approval and they're asking for deviations from neighborhood parks or parking. Yes, I think we could condition those alternative standard requests on them not seeking the tax exemption. So Let's start there. Where you're gonna have some difficulty though is if they're if they already have their site plan approval. In other words, too late, can't do anything. Or they're not seeking any deviations from our land development code. They're not seeking

1:14:33neighborhood park deviations or parking deviations. or they're already built. Okay, so those those three scenarios where they're either already built They have the site plan approval. or they're not seeking any deviations from our land development code. I think the only thing we're gonna catch those projects is probably through litigation. Um You could in theory do a moratorium, but the reason I'm a little concerned about that is Then you're going to be doing a moratorium on things that already have site plan approval. And you're probably gonna catch

1:15:04Some projects that

1:15:07I mean there there's gonna be some stuff that you were gonna catch. Um Pasco Town Center. I mean there's a lot of there's a lot of projects that you have have said a lot of good things about, even though they have a multifamily component to them. Right. And I'm a little worried that some of those may get caught up in that kind of moratorium. Um You know. My personal opinion is I'd like you to start with Maybe conditioning the site plan approvals that are asking for some deviation.

1:15:35Absolutely.

1:15:36Maybe look at the plan amendments, because like I said You have no obligation to be proving Complet amendments for higher density projects.

1:15:44And I had one of those yesterday. It came in right across from Wesley Chapel Park. And um Old Pasco maybe? Old Pasco?

1:15:56Yeah, somewhere in there. And where I know there's already a lot of apartments. Um and he wanted to go to um, apartments and strip commercial and I was like I I I say I can't See why I would give you More density. One going through this lived local stuff and two, you know, I think we were pretty good there. You're right across from a park. Why don't you do a hotel and some restaurants or something? And so I agree

1:16:27with you. I th you know, I think we can kind of Help control this by saying in this area we're not gonna give you any extra density. For now. So for right now that this might be dead. For a multifamily.

1:16:42David England may have some thoughts about what types of plan amendments. even target, but I believe there's a certain level of density that you need to achieve before you would be multifamily. Um for example, I'm not sure that a res three plan or res one to res three plan amendment is gonna trigger Multifamily. Um obviously the calm industrial so I don't think we're talking about all land use amendments. But maybe Mr. Ingall or could comment on maybe thoughts about

1:17:12which Land use amendments you might want to do.

1:17:15Mr. Chairman Mariano.

1:17:22Didn't want to see the apartments. I thought a hotel or two could work. I didn't think the access was a big issue. Yeah, right off the highway. We we we go to events where there it's a lot easier harder to get to a hotel than it is to get to there. Uh and I said the same thing. Uh you go down wire grass, I mean Old Pasco Road to Wesley Chapel Boulevard, you're gonna see seven thousand apartments have just been approved that are all coming in. I don't need any more apartments right there. What I need is to complement the hospital that's right across the street.

1:17:47From the park.

1:17:48Where I where I actually did we did approve some apartments there already too. So I don't need to go flood that area anymore. It's a two lane road still. It's gonna get approved later on, but it's gonna be a long time before all those things are done. Why do I wanna jam up everybody up there? So I was I was on I was on the same page you were uh going with that. And that is a property that Commissioner Weightman has been talking about

1:18:07for

1:18:07a bit.

1:18:07Mr. Engel. Good afternoon. David Engel, Economic Growth Director. Many of the live local projects that have approached us, which is approximately twelve. A lot of them have backed off to live local, but they want to get a Complant amendment for apartments. And that seems to be a course of action and a strategy that's been undertaken of late. Um we don't know what the impact of Live Local is. Our our zoning, our financial management, all the things that make uh Pasco sustainable for

1:18:37our roads and our financial and fiscal disposition. are maybe uprooted significantly by Live Locals, so we have a level of uncertainty. So um if You were to impose uh no action on plan amendments, that's your comp plan. We would recommend that you start from res six and higher. because those residential future land use areas allow for multifamily housing. Res three allows for attached single family homes but not apartments.

1:19:08So that would be outside of the area. that we wouldn't entertain Com Plan amendments. So these are amendments coming in. We have a lot of them and uh it allows us to catch our breath and assess the impact to live local.

1:19:21How long will it take to address those items?

1:19:23Well it it really it really it really is up to when we can resolve and get clarity on Live Local. It's uh we're in limbo now. And just you know to make a point, uh Commissioner Starkey and uh that the county administrator was talking during the session this morning And Brad came up and said, Well there's thirty about thirty-five thousand units uh that we have coming in on the books. That's more units than the list that David Goldstein uh obtained from Tallahassee. I mean that could be

1:19:52David didn't get that.

1:19:55Mr. Sharkey got okay. Well well the but the but the point is

1:19:59got that

1:20:00an average apartment project is about two hundred and fifty to three hundred and fifty units. And if you divide the thirty-five thousand or thirty-six or thirty-seven thousand number Brad used, You're well over a hundred and forty projects and there's a hundred and twenty projects on the list up in Tallahassee. So the the financial impact is uh you know could be significant and almost catastrophic because it defunds a l a lot of things.

1:20:26Um, this is a question that I hadn't thought about until just right now. So It's it's per unit, not per complex, you know, when you were doing the numbers. So So Um You could have an apartment complex that just does five and you could have one that does a hundred, and we just have no idea what's coming.

1:20:47To be clear, they have to do at least seventy. Yeah, the

1:20:51that one is only doing is they're are they doing twenty six percent? They're

1:20:55doing seventy five.

1:20:57Oh, the smallest one we have?

1:21:00Okay,

1:21:00that was gonna be my question.

1:21:01Okay. But again, it's one hundred and twenty percent of AMI, so these seventy are just market rate rents. But yes, they They were doing at least seventy at that rate.

1:21:10And the compounding problem is as some units become vacant Over subsequent years the developer project owner may come back for more live local. It doesn't there's no prohibition.

1:21:22Right, it just depends on who's who who is renting the easy.

1:21:27Uh and uh one of the things I find really challenging is that they told us That they could not limit the amount of projects that apply. The state. The writer of the bill, Jennifer or Jenny.

1:21:43Should a can a county I you know How can we survive? Can we cap can we cap it at a certain number? And she said, No, that would be illegal. I why would that be illegal?

1:21:56Well I I d well first of all I don't think the whole act is legal. I'll start with that. Okay. But putting that aside, I I think the legislature could could limit the scope of the exemption. Um

1:22:10the percentage of units that could come off.

1:22:12Maybe what she was really trying to say is that if you limit the number, you're just gonna get a race. It's gonna result in a race. And so Um And then you have to decide who gets in. You know, if you get eighty of them,

1:22:24if

1:22:25you get if you get a hundred of them that all apply, which Which Which fifty get it and which fifty don't. I mean that may be the issue that she's really concerned about.

1:22:34Yeah.

1:22:35But the alternative is everyone gets it.

1:22:41Well, or the alternative is limit the scope of the act so not I mean make it eighty percent of AMI and then then it's actually a rational reason for how you're doing it because then at least you're limiting it to those that are providing more affordable housing. Which that was our legislative request.

1:22:55Yeah. Um

1:22:59our organic needs are you know down towards sixty percent of AMI.

1:23:03Well that was gonna be my next question. Are we asking the right thing? Should we really be asking for sixty?

1:23:10about our affordable housing needs in the county. It's not complete yet, but Based on the original conversation I had with Marcy. We do have some need below eighty percent of AMI. It's not that we have I agree with David Engle. Our bigger need is probably below sixty percent or fifty percent of an army, but There's at least a need below eighty percent of AI. When you get to eighty to one twenty, we have no need at all. We probably have a glut. That's what

1:23:34I was told from Mercy.

1:23:35So it's it's hard for us to argue that we have no need below eighty percent of AMI because the USF study shows that we do.

1:23:42Mr. Mariano. Thank you, Mr. Chairman. Um I I think we should try to find a way to delay any approvals that we can possibly uh be allowed to delay uh until session's over. And maybe a governor's signature so we know where we stand.

1:24:00Yeah yeah, I wanna be clear. There's two different issues. There's the tax exemption, there's the land use. Okay. The tax, these are already built, so there's no delaying them. I mean all the only thing I can do with the ones that are already built is sue them. Uh there's not much else I can do. I mean I I can send him a demand letter and say don't do this. and encourage Mike Wells to not issue the exemption, but that's other than that other than suing them That's probably our only recourse. So that's what I think Commissioner Starkey is talking about is the ones that are already built. The ones that are not yet built for

1:24:31the most part they're not seeking Lib Local anymore. because when the board authorized us to sue anybody that seeks it, they all stopped. I'm not saying that's gonna permanently happen. There may be some that decide they want to be the test case. But so far, and I've actually s actually spoken to some land use attorneys. Who were who had applied and they said We're not gonna mess with Pasco. We'll go somewhere else where they want us, is basically what they said. So I'm not sure if you're not going to be able Anticipating a flood of live local land use

1:25:01applications Currently. I think the bigger issue in my opinion is probably the tax exemption.

1:25:07Yeah.

1:25:08Agreed? Because the there's stuff that we already approved or that's already built. And those they could seek the tax exemption. So You know, maybe conditioning some of the site plans that are seeking alternative standards that we can try to get Some of them That way conditioning the new rezoning There's but there's gonna be a batch of them that we already approved or that are already built that We may not have any course recourse other than getting the law changed or lawsuits.

1:25:36Chairman

1:25:36Mariano.

1:25:37Yes, sir.

1:25:38Thank you, Chairman

1:25:39Mariano.

1:25:39So I mentioned this to Carbala earlier. So when we look at projects like Connected City, the only entitlements remaining are multifamily. Entire month. So the remaining that audit's not done yet to see what's left. So to what Mr. Engel you were saying and to what you're saying, Mr. Goldstein Is that the right-of-way? entire remaining product line within that project is vulnerable. Since there's the since both the family entitlements are left they can be built and then they'll they could apply for the ta as

1:26:10class A and then apply for their Live Local exemption and just downgrade all that project and wreck that project's financial plan.

1:26:20Well, it has the potential of becoming Live Local because it's a existing apartment unit that has been built in the last five years they can apply.

1:26:29Or or anything coming in the future. So it's a rolling.

1:26:33So I want to be clear. If they haven't rezoned yet I think you can still condition their rezoning on them not getting the tax exemption. And we have There's like three or four projects that are in the system currently where we'll be done that very thing. The the bigger issue is the ones that you've already approved in Connected City. the for multifamily or they've already got a site plan approval or That's probably a bigger risk in my opinion.

1:27:00Mm. So I I'm not as concerned about To me the fundamental problem with Live Local is this whole retroactive thing they did where they basically said stuff that was already built or even before we even knew this was happening. They said stuff that was already built or approved gets this tax exemption. And so we had no chance to react to it. Well now we do with the stuff the new stuff coming in We could condition it on them not getting the tax exemption. So I'm a little less concerned about the stuff that hasn't come in yet. I'm more concerned about What's

1:27:30already approved or built? When it comes to tax exemption. Now that being said, if you think there's a general oversupply of apartments and you want to say limit land use amendments or, you know, do other things I think you have the right to do that.

1:27:47Mr. Chairman Mariano. Yeah. I think that is where what I was trying to get to is I think that's something we should do. That's the easiest thing to do and and and I would e just even delay those until sessions over or governor's signature when we find out what's really gonna happen. 'Cause the governor may look at and and do something different but We m uh at least till session's over, I think we should be putting a hold on it.

1:28:07And And I'm only

1:28:09thirty days. Forty five days. Yes.

1:28:13And and I wonder if Just as a planning exercise. We sh might identify Where places maybe Have a good number that satisfy the need and place other places where we might say, okay, this maybe this area doesn't. But I will say when I drove up Wesley Chapel Boulevard and Old Pasco Road, it took kinda took my breath away. And now you say there's another one coming up there? Being constructed?

1:28:43So on the

1:28:45west side.

1:28:46Aside from Live Local. Do we need to Take a look at what we've got on the books. And make some decisions. I mean, I'm not sure. It it seems like we should be careful about what we're A little more thoughtful about what we're approving sometimes.

1:29:03Well um as a suggestion we have a comp plan that's in process for revision. It'll be available within a year. So maybe you could tie it to that.

1:29:15So so

1:29:16Barbara's coming up.

1:29:20Come ahead, Barbara. As well, huh?

1:29:248627 Grand Boulevard, maybe not for the rest of this year, if you guys do what you're talking about. But for now, [address removed]. Um When you're talking about apartments, they're not at res 3, they're not at res 6, they're not at res 9. So don't throw the baby out with the bathwater. You need places for people to live that are coming here. If you cut make the cut at res anything that's not res 3, any complaint amendment above res 3, if you throw that out, you throw out all the platter

1:29:54town homes. You're finally getting people to develop platto town homes here. So you can get more home ownership. You finally got your jobs here, and now when that person wants to get that, you know, get into a fee simple, they can't get into a townhome because you've said you don't want townhomes anymore. So please just be very precise in what you target. If it's multifamily apartments, you know, those are up in eighteens to 24 density, the garden styles, but if you could

1:30:24And not just take a uh so townhomes go between six and nine. They're usually never at the nine, but we go our complaints goes from six to nine. So you'll see people go to nine to get seven or eight. Because most townhomes are between six and eight. But so if we could just have you Just talk about it a little bit more and talk about what product you're targeting and not go and where you're gonna start affecting things that we do need. We do I mean we do wanna see plotted town homes, we wanna see home ownership. Um

1:30:55And remember. Our comp plan is thirty-five years old. So the the the properties that are already res three or six or nine, they're they're gone. They've been developed. And so you've got we have to change the comp plan for townhomes. All my townhome projects, I've changed the comp plan. So if you look to say I'm not gonna have anything other than a compliment amendment to res three, you pretty much have just said we're not gonna do any more entitlement work here for I heard him say a month, uh what you know, whatever it is. Didn't he say res

1:31:25six? He started at res he said anything other above res three is what he said. No, I ha well I heard him say res six. But

1:31:32so just to clarify uh Ms. Wilhite is speaking about net densities. And of course, apartments can occupy sixteen to twenty-four unit an acre sites. But res six is the gross density in the area, but it does allow apartments. And on a Complant amendment, we don't really get into the granular aspect of what the project is.

1:31:55We'll do it mine. Well, exactly. You do it with mine, well you can do it with everybody else. I lead my clients forward. Um that's what I do. But there are no apartments in res six. It just doesn't exist. What you see in res six to res

1:32:16is townhomes is what you see in those densities. Your departments, and I just actually went through this exercise of what goes in where and what's a three-story density and what's a four story story density and where are our build to rent densities if that's a product, you know, another product that's out there. So I think you need to look at not numbers but what product and then target the number. But try to figure out what product and it seems like and you've had a moratorium on apartments before, so that's not not that's not a new discussion, but it seems like just Be careful with

1:32:46the just saying I don't we don't want anybody bringing forward projects. I mean that's what that's what that would do. And I understand the month. I mean a month, you know, that's just a delay, that's not a stop, it's not a saying don't don't bother. Um but 'Cause then you can understand what where things are at. So that doesn't but it's the really taking things that are anything at Going far all the way down your comp plan to say we we're not gonna allow anybody to come in with a new townhome project because that's what you would do if you go that deep. So I'd ask you to think about

1:33:16that, maybe have your staff come back and don't do anything right now, but let your staff come back and work on that a little bit. And other people can talk to you about you know what their perspectives are. You've got one person here trying

1:33:30And I do understand, I mean Commissioner Starkey's been educating me even more and Commissioner Weightman. all of you about Live Local and uh you know uh all of my projects have agreed to Okay I mean my project my project was Dominium Dominium Anclove sixty percent EMI they agreed to not do this regarding your able taxation and it is an affordable project. So all of what my agreed I committed to Commissioner Starkey today that I'll go back to all my projects that you all worked with to get them entitled And we'll see if we can get them to agree to a deed restriction or something so that they can't

1:34:00do this as it's sold to somebody else. So, you know, we've got people that work here that care and um just don't kill us, all right? I thought that

1:34:06was interesting. She's willing to write a letter to all her projects that are have been entitled to see if they will pledge to not go live local.

1:34:14Well I I think that there's uh maybe a another path that's not as draconian as the original proposal. If a Complan amendment comes in, uh you can You c y I I don't think we can all we can really get involved in uses unless we modify our comp plan now and our L D C but What we could do is if you want to have a complaint which is at the discretion of the board You have to sign uh, you know, uh some type of document that you won't seek uh ad valorem tax exemptions.

1:34:44Well we do that already. Well historically

1:34:47we've done it head in a rezoning. We have not we've not historically done it on a comp plan. Can we do that in comment?

1:34:53Let's do that.

1:34:56And we can see how it goes and you know, if we need to come back we can come back and do something else.

1:35:01I I'm thinking we need to put our heads together and and you know come bring us something back as soon as possible. Maybe to the next meeting in Dade City or That's like two weeks, so Yeah.

1:35:12Thank

1:35:12you.

1:35:14I I get that you want us to bring something back on the comp plan. What about the issue of The site plan approvals and conditioning those that are seeking like a neighborhood park variance.

1:35:25I would look at all that as a Do you want us to

1:35:27be part of that same thing that we bring back?

1:35:29Yes sir. So I think that'd be good to

1:35:31bring all that back.

1:35:32I would well I don't if you have any between now and then, we want you to condition them. We don't want any slipping through in the next two. Well, is is there a chance for that? They have to go to the planning commission first? No,

1:35:43these most of these alternative standards that we're talking about are administratively approved by staff.

1:35:47Okay, well we want those conditioned guys, right? We don't want any more li that can go to Live Local.

1:35:51Correct.

1:35:52All right. Those are conditioned.

1:35:54You get the parks and the parking.

1:36:00deviation from our code, that you want to go as put the lib local requ restriction on those starting today.

1:36:05Or they get a an acre park for every hundred units and

1:36:09Well again, I'm talking about they're seeking some deviation from our land development code. Yeah.

1:36:13Right. Yeah.

1:36:15Yeah.

1:36:17And bring that back to us in next meeting.

1:36:20Well actually I I we we intend just to go ahead and do that now. I mean if you're not going to be able to

1:36:24do that. Do what you can do now. So and then bring back to us what we're whatever.

1:36:30I I have one more point that we need to discuss that um someone brought up to me and that was in I haven't heard this one yet, but and I don't know what the rules are. But apparently you can convert a mobile home park. To live local. So or you can buy commercial property and put mobile homes on it and become live local. So what is that threshold?

1:36:53I don't know that that would be considered multifamily. I mean we're not going to be able to do that.

1:36:58Okay. Multiple homes to be multifamily.

1:37:02This was a land use attorney, a very good one. So let's make sure that there's not a consequence that we're not familiar with.

1:37:11I'm happy to look into it more, but this the this entire thing was oriented towards multifamily. I think town homes have a better argument under our code than The trailer bark, but uh I'll look into it. Okay.

1:37:25Mr. Mariano? So I I heard as well that golf courses are considered commercial and be c could be converted as well.

1:37:32Yeah, they're being attacked now.

1:37:34So we gotta we gotta

1:37:35it depends on what the local jurisdiction has Designated their golf courses. If they've designated them a as commercial then then they then yes. I mean it it It all is gonna link back to what you've got your them zoned as.

1:37:54So what if it's zoned M P U D.

1:37:58So there's an ongoing issue which the legislature has still not fixed about whether M PUDs or PUDs even Whether Lib Local Even applies to those. So there are some jurisdictions taking the position that it doesn't even apply to a PUD or M PUD because That's not commercial loan. Okay.

1:38:19I think Plan City's dealing with this right now. I don't know what the outcome of it was, but You could take the position that it only applies to Euclidean, C two, C one, I one, I two zoning districts. But the law is unclear. And Yeah. This is one of the reasons for our lawsuit is the the law is so unclear we can't even we can't apply it.

1:38:42Yeah. Uh on land use, it was just it was asked but didn't get answered. Can the land use put those extra conditions on like we do with the zoning about live local?

1:38:54So I this is not one I've discussed with Jeff, but I mean we've We've only historically done it on rezoning. I can't think of a reason why somebody couldn't voluntarily derestrict their property at Complain on list can you Did you think of anything?

1:39:09No.

1:39:12And you probably could all you might be able to do a sub area policy as well.

1:39:21Can we keep a a it was some uh a land use amendment from going to live local. Like we do with zon

1:39:27what

1:39:27a land use amendment coming forward to keep it from being able to go live local.

1:39:31I thought you said you could.

1:39:32Zonings we could. We're just talking about

1:39:36I think I think you could.

1:39:38Okay. I think we should definitely take that approach immediately.

1:39:41Yeah. Yeah, we've got a lot of work to do between now and next meeting.

1:39:45Um Mr. Chairman Mariano to to what Barbara said. You know, I think in all this with all the apartments we've seen that are coming up and all the information we've now got, we uh we uh definitely have a GLUT coming up which could could

1:40:01Mm. I'm okay with the townhome product, I always have been. I mean if people have a chance to own their own property, I think it's a good thing. All of a sudden these forties don't seem that bad compared to Well we're looking at for apartments either. So um I I think that, you know, I don't wanna cut out the town home product, so If staff wants to take a look at that, make a bring a suggestion back how we handle it, I'm okay with that too.

1:40:25So what I'm hearing to maybe get a motion, um Is you want us to immediately start imposing Conditions a a no live local tax exemption on any site plan approval that is seeking some alternative standard from our land development code that you want to start today?

1:40:42Yes.

1:40:43Yes.

1:40:43Yes

1:40:43today. Then bring back some proposal to tackle Some type of complaint amendments that are Changing to allow multifamily apartments.

1:40:53So moved. Second. Alright, got a motion of second. In addition to discussion, discussion.

1:41:00Discussion on so

1:41:04Point. And stakeholders' point.

1:41:09So do we what kind of time do we need? Do we truly need to get this right and be patient? use the remaining time that we have in the legislative session. to cool. That way decisions are made thoughtfully and clearly and then once we understand what happens with session. And we can control we control, then we kinda get back to business as normal. Or do we take A step forward. And not go the moratorium way, but just

1:41:36We're not doing a moratorium.

1:41:37No, that's what I'm saying, but we just don't know They're gonna bring that back to us in two weeks. So we're only gonna wait two weeks. How much I'm asking staff what Mr. That's not very long. So

1:41:45So that's a David Engle question or Brad or whoever's here. I d I don't know how they need to formulate a proposal to on the plan amendment side.

1:41:55Okay.

1:41:57wait does they are you asking David to answer that or you just said just give him time?

1:42:00Why don't we see where we're at with two weeks and then we'll

1:42:05I got a feeling it'll be an iterative approach anyway.

1:42:07Um Um David, um you had mentioned to me that with the two that David, um, but it can be both of you. Um David and David and David uh that you were prepared to um serve, or whatever the word is, the two ones, it's the carriage and the Tapestry. Then tapestry. Tapestry and

1:42:28gallery.

1:42:29Yeah, tapestry and gallery.

1:42:30I'm prepared to send them a demand letter first.

1:42:33Okay.

1:42:33The demand letter basically says if you continue with this tax exemption, we're going to sue you.

1:42:38Okay, so what happens if they go ahead and apply to Mike? How how does is there a timeline for Mike to have to reply?

1:42:48Their deadline to apply for the case.

1:42:51I know theirs is

1:42:52March first,

1:42:53but is there a deadline for Mike to reply?

1:42:56Um I guess it depends on when we're going to be able to do that He has to finalize the His exemptions and this is not my area of the easy.

1:43:03Can that take a year? Can that take a month?

1:43:09date by which he has to maybe one of our budget people know about whatever the date is that It's the same as any other exemption, like ag exemptions, all the other exemptions that he issued. Right. There probably is some deadline by which you have to issue

1:43:22it. So based on kind of what maybe you were kind of saying, is there a political advantage to not serve the demand letter. Um Until session is over and and and so when is session over? March

1:43:41January, February. It's gotta be in March somewhere. Yeah, it's March time. Uh is Ralph here?

1:43:46Yes, I'm here.

1:43:47Ralph, wh when is uh session over? March fourth? Um and so So are we still in a good legal position if we're still in that time when he has to be?

1:44:02Before Mike Wells issues his determination. Because I w there's a chance he may read this letter in the lawsuit and say, I can't issue this.

1:44:13So So I don't know whether he will or won't, but but he should at least be issuing it with the knowledge that Pasco County has a problem with it.

1:44:21I'm just thinking strategically and I guess I need a lobbyist to tell me this. Um, is it better to issue our demand letter while the legislature's in session and maybe they see, whoops, we might have an issue? Or is it better to wait till it's over and then and then we can't fix anything, we have to wait a whole year?

1:44:38Mr. Chairman Mariano.

1:44:38Well I can tell you what Sean told me, but then Ralph may want to add to it. What Shawn told me is that we should know this week Or when the next version of the bill comes out. Whether they're addressing our concerns or not. Um He told me he doesn't have an issue with us sending the demand letter. If the if the next bill comes out and it does not Address our concerns He thinks it's probably very little chance that we're gonna get it changed this session that we should go ahead and Send it a man letter. But Ralph may have other thoughts. Okay, Ralph. So

1:45:09Ralph Flair, Intergovernmental Affairs Officer. So what he's referring to when he says when the bill comes out Uh as you know, when the bill was scheduled to be heard in the Senate last week in fiscal policy, they immediately TP'd it. Um the discussion is is they are currently working on an amendment. Once we see that amendment then we'll have a better idea how much further they want to change other than the uh issues, the removing industrial and a couple other issues that they did in its first committee

1:45:39stop and now it's a a committee substitute. So once we see that Um hopefully it'll be um Maybe the end of this week, uh beginning of next week. Um but this week uh fiscal policy in the Senate was slated on the calendar for Wednesday morning at eight thirty and they are not meeting uh this week. So we know this week it's not happening. They're in session at the end of the week, Thursday and Friday. So um It could come up. Uh you know, the uh the end of this week

1:46:09uh an amendment will pop up and once we see that amendment, it'll probably be then immediately uh scheduled uh for the next Next meeting day, n which will be the next week on Wednesday, probably Wednesday morning at eight thirty.

1:46:22Mr. Chairman M

1:46:23Yeah.

1:46:23So I want you to think let's let's think this through a little bit. They know we're up there last week. Right, we meet with our whole entire Cat Commissioner Starkey. We go through the whole to all button.

1:46:36Steal and

1:46:37make it too much. Right, but uh but we're we're set to meet most of the delegation anyway. But we did meet with s uh Senator President Pasadomo and we didn't get a good response while we were there. As we leave, we say the next day, we're going to Whether they're gonna have the have the here of the hearing on it. We're hearing words that may get stronger, we don't know, we don't think we've made a difference, et cetera. That is Commissioner Starkey waiting in the audience for the first part of the hearing to be held, they TP it immediately. That never happens up there from what I'm told. Not

1:47:07sp you don't TP a Senate President's bill. So they know we're coming up here this week. With Hillsborough and Penellas, right? Now they're going to hear it on Wednesday and they're going to postpone it again.

1:47:18No, no, it's not scheduled.

1:47:21But no, they were supposed to meet Wednesday. He just said it. 830 was supposed to meet. And now they changed it. They know we're gonna be up there. They don't want us in front of it. So I'm gonna say if you get that demand letter ready, I'd say fire it away.

1:47:33Agree. Agree. Yeah. So I'm willing to do whatever the board directs me to do, but I want to be clear that Last time we the Senate President heard about the threat of litigation, she did call up Sean and yell at him. Um that was the reason the only reason I was trying to wait until Sean gave me the go-head. I didn't want him to get yelled at again by the Senate President. But I'll again I'll I will send these letters. They are ready to go. I mean I just gotta sign them. I'll send them whenever the board directs me to.

1:48:07But I will t I'll warn you the second I send these letters the whole world will see them. That's fine. But our obligation is a little bit more. no holding back once I pull that trigger.

1:48:14Can I say that Senator Pasadomo and um Representative uh the one from Miami who's the house sponsor all saw this in an article somewhere in two different places about the sixteen deputies or the six fourteen deputies and the sixteen teachers that the two ones would defund.

1:48:34I we so they're

1:48:35we're getting pressed.

1:48:36I mean our our board when I think we're doing a great job of this, we have an op we can't can we can control what we control. We're elected to protect our businesses, our taxpayers, vested interests in this county. And I'm I'm for you know, filing the letter as soon as it's absolutely necessary and not hold back. And we hold the line and we we protect Pasco County. That's why we're in these chairs. And I feel that's what we're obligated to do and I think we're doing a fantastic job working as a team. doing that. So I

1:49:06just want to double down on Commissioner Mariano's

1:49:09Mr. Dolsting. Is it better for us to put that letter out now or wait that two weeks and then put that letter out?

1:49:15So if you're asking for my advice, I don't think we're prejudiced in any way if I wait a week or two. If we get into mid February and I haven't sent it, then I'm starting to potentially get prejudiced. Okay, but I don't think I'm prejudiced in any way for the next week or two. So I would like to wait until the next version of the bill comes out at least to see 'cause

1:49:38yeah

1:49:38we've made our concerns very clear. They've now had This would be their second chance to address our concerns. They didn't do it the first time.

1:49:44Right.

1:49:45I even gave them proposed language that would address our concerns, which they did not include. If they don't and I think somebody told me, I don't know if it was Sean or maybe Commissioner Starkey that Some of our legislators, I think it was Danny Burgess, went to Senate President's office and they were told by Jennifer. The the next version will address Pasco's concerns or something to that effect.

1:50:05Well that was the industrial.

1:50:07Well I don't know if that's what they meant. I don't

1:50:09I don't know about this then. That wouldn't mean

1:50:11we made it very clear that the just the movie industrial doesn't solve our concerns.

1:50:14Okay, well maybe we made some headwinds

1:50:15so so

1:50:19My only concern is if they are really trying to address our concerns and I realize that's a remote chance. I don't really want to make the Senate President mad by sending this letter. So my preference would be to at least wait till this next version comes out.

1:50:30Okay.

1:50:31If it comes out, still does not address our concerns, I'm happy to send the letter at that point.

1:50:36And that'll come along with in two weeks we'll know something. Uh I don't know if that version will come out.

1:50:42Supposedly this bill was on a fast truck at one point, so it's a little uh yeah.

1:50:49I I suspect in the next two weeks we will know what this bill will say. Right. Ralph, do you think that's that's correct? Okay. Yeah.

1:50:55I

1:50:56think it was fascinating that we were up there. We got um you made us those talking points for us to hand out to the fat the other counties there at FAC on the the morning before we all went up to the hill. N this was not on one county's radar. And um we didn't have the list yet. But you know, Jack and I put out as many as we could. I heard from Marion County. And a few other counties like, oh you know, maybe this is something we should be paying attention to.

1:51:26Jack tried to get up and speak to the fat group and the And they wouldn't let 'em speak to it, right?

1:51:32They pushed where another speaker was there and they kinda rushed him off and then there was gonna get a chance later on and then when the president c pushed the gavel down at nine fifteen in the morning that we're done. Yeah. Uh

1:51:43we were supposed to be there till till ten.

1:51:45Yeah.

1:51:45Um also

1:51:47can I just add to that point, cause Sean has told us that part of our issue with legislative changes is that FAC keeps substaining there in support of the bill.

1:51:55And Liga Cities.

1:52:01before I spoke and said they were fine with the bill as is.

1:52:04And now they have the list and now the story's starting to change, I believe. I'll have to go back with Ginger. But after we got when we got out of the um when they TP'd the bill. And we left the room. There was the um, I don't know what the term is, the public relations guy or the the public policy guy for League of Cities had been in the room. And he came in our huddle Uh I don't think you were there at the beginning. I think you were talking to someone No idea about the ad valorem hit that's coming. And this is the public policy guide for Liga Cities

1:52:34and And I I you know, I think that's a good thing H his face was draining. When we said this is the potential. I and when they when when we got the number of hundred and twenty, I couldn't believe it. I said, I am you know I'm I was standing there when Yeager asked the question of FHFC and he wrote down 120 and I said, no. Now you need to be sure and ask them just the current apartments that are flipping. What is that number? Because uh that that all those counties and cities had no idea

1:53:05what was coming. We were the only ones that knew we had two. We didn't find anybody who ever asked, right?

1:53:11Right. So h his his you know, you you're hitting on some really good points. And by the way, Commissioner Starkey did make a great move up there asking about getting that list from HF F H S E and Representative Yeager. Yeah, representative Yeager. Uh Sean had a great idea, get Representative to make the call, he made the call, we had it, and that helped us a bit. So uh great work on that. But I think it's it's important that we really take a look at this. These two apartments, if they come in And they get approved, right?

1:53:42I don't care if they're eighty percent M AMI. If they took every single apartment and brought them down to that number, that would still devastate us.

1:53:49That's what I'm worried

1:53:50about with the eighty percent number. So whether they take care of the commercial part later on, where they go to eighty percent MSI, uh uh AMI, this is still gonna hurt us. Yeah. So as far as this aspect of it, we're not talking about even new stuff, we're talking about existing stuff. Yeah. I think we should just Fire the thing off and send it anyway because no matter what happens, we gotta stop this one.

1:54:10I I yeah, and and just so everyone understands it, it's very complicated. If you're if you go if a unit goes in at a hundred and twenty AMI, they get a seventy five percent reduction. If they go in at a eighty percent AMI, it's a hundred percent tax abatement. Is that the right word?

1:54:28It is um a tax exemption. But tax

1:54:31exemption.

1:54:31But I will tell you if you look at that list and you study it closely I would say probably ninety percent of the ones that are trying to qualify are doing it 120 percent of AMR. Right. So I I agree with you, Commissioner Mariano, that eighty percent of AMI still hurts us from a tax perspective. However I think it's unlikely that most department complexes will try to do it. at eighty percent of AMI and that list is a perfect example of why. They get a bigger tax break if they go to eighty percent of AMI, but most of them are not doing it.

1:55:00Well that's because they they all are looking at their existing contracts.

1:55:05Yeah, 120% of MMI, they don't have to reduce their rents at all.

1:55:08And David, they they didn't go out and shop for people who couldn't afford it though. This first year, I bet they just looked at what tenants do we have? Here's their salaries as stated when they applied to live here, and here's what qualifies. Okay, we can take. 26% off this year. Let's see what we get next year. Because if you look at some of those, some of them have eight, say eight units at 80%. And so we're going to do that. fifty units. I

1:55:38mean they I just believe everybody just went by the current contracts that are in their apartments right now. I tend to agree with you that's

1:55:45what they do. And the only reason they didn't include them all is because

1:55:48Or using the units that aren't rented yet and then they got a

1:55:50the only the only reason they didn't include them all is because they probably have people in their apartment complex that are making more than 120% of AMI and they didn't want to kick them out.

1:55:57He makes a good point. Maybe they're the the some of the

1:56:02Those are going in at eighty. I mean, it what does it say? There's a if you read it, it says they can stay empty for Six months or eight months and still not pay a tax. That's accurate. There's something on there that says

1:56:16they just have to hold it for somebody for that income range. So we'll move,

1:56:20Mr.

1:56:20Chairman. But if they don't come in. So float another idea. We we m when we had this discussion before It got the attention of the seven seven president, the representative that's Yeah. It got a lot of attention. And I r I really think this could just break this county financially big time. And if we do send the demand letter out, it's only to those two companies, those two apartments, right? It's not attacking anybody else, not attacking the legislature. It's attacking what's going to happen to us. If we do that, if nothing else,

1:56:50it maybe it draws more attention to all the other counties and cities to say, you know what? They must be pretty serious about this to miss send that letter out.

1:56:58And then we get more.

1:56:59And that may that get more support, which we is what we need.

1:57:01All right, now I might be with you.

1:57:06Again I will do whatever the board directs me to do. And complaints are ready to go whenever you If you tell me to The only reason they haven't been sent yet is the for the reason I said, which is I was doing it for out of respect for Sean. But if the board says send them, I'll send them.

1:57:24I'll make a motion that we send the demand letters out.

1:57:27Second.

1:57:32Today, tomorrow,

1:57:33while we're in Tallahassee. I

1:57:34want

1:57:35to

1:57:35be clear,

1:57:35I'm

1:57:35gonna

1:57:35be in Tallahassee tomorrow. Maybe difficult can I can this wait till Thursday? Can wait till Thursday. Yeah. Wait till Thursday afternoon.

1:57:41I don't like to wait that two weeks, but

1:57:44Well the advantage of waiting until Thursday is if we're up there tomorrow, maybe we can get an idea

1:57:50A better idea whether any changes have been made.

1:57:53wait one day. Th I'm good for Thursday. Thursday? Like s have 'em ready to be Email, fax, whatever,

1:58:02Thursday. She can send certified mail to a lot of people. So but Friday.

1:58:06I think you should also like email them. Certifying my husband won't get pick up his own.

1:58:15Thursday, but with an agreement that uh Mr. Kabala reaches out to each board member to get their vote toward sending that on Thursday. based on what we hear up there. So 'cause we're not gonna be back together for the to the next two weeks, so

1:58:32Mr. County Attorney?

1:58:35Well I'm not gonna put the administrator in the position of polling the board. Um

1:58:44We have the authority, you've already given it to us, to send these out.

1:58:51Uh I would leave it at the county attorney's discretion to send it out. based on uh by week's end Okay. Based on what we all hear while we're up there. I'll modify

1:59:04mo my motion to those comments. Okay, I'm good with that. So I'll second second the modified.

1:59:10Motion and a second and uh all those in favor say aye. Aye. Motion passed four zero. Um excuse did we

1:59:17also had a motion on the floor earlier that was directing staff for the comp plan?

1:59:24Yeah, so that I think the earlier motion was also to deal with the conditioning, the site plans that are seeking some deviation from our comments. But I think

1:59:30that's what you're going

1:59:30to

1:59:30bring back in.

1:59:33But you one of those you wanted us to do immediately, which was to start conditioning the site plans that we're seeking land development code deviations. On not doing Lib Local Tax exemption. I think maybe in the motion you're referring to. So David, restate the motion for us? So the the motion would be for staff to immediately start conditioning Any site plan approval that And rezoning. that it for a multifamily project that is seeking Some deviation from The land development code including neighborhood

2:00:03parks, parking, et cetera. in addition to bring back a recommendation on Which comprehensive plan amendments to either put on hold or delay Right. To deal with The vocal.

2:00:17That is my motion. Okay.

2:00:20So I got a motion.

2:00:21Second. And a second? I will not repeat it.

2:00:24All those in favor. Say aye. Motion passed 4-0.

2:00:32Okay. That's all I have.