Parks impact fee LDC amendment

1:48:11Then we go to the last one.

1:48:28Sorry, I

1:48:29So a lot of the information is really just repetitive. I'm gonna go basically to the slide that ultimately talks about the major changes and and we can have discussion at that point.

1:48:46So one of the big changes through at least the the modifications to the LDC is is talking about moving pot projects to different phases, replacing facilities actually in the plan. So again, this is plan-based, so we're kind of locked into the plan. So if in fact um we the board wants to make changes, it has to be of equal value. Um It's easy to adding projects or facilities that are fully funded by non-impact fee revenue sources. So meaning that the capital

1:49:17plan can exist, can have a project list for a project on it that's not solely funded by impact fees. Fully funding facilities with impact fee where project costs exceed the actual estimates by less than 20 percent. And then all of these changes ultimately through the LDC uh would have to be approved by uh board resolution if there was any modifications to the capital plan. But that's pretty much the high-level summary of the of the changes. Changes in the LDC. Everything else that you we've already talked about today still

1:49:47stands. The fee as presented is what we've talked about. At this point, we're not presenting a phase in, though I know we've talked about it, and at this point we haven't talked about any other way to fund the capital program outside of the Parks Impact fee increase.

1:50:05This is the implementation schedule that we talked about.

1:50:10And at this point, PARC staff recommends approval of the item in front of you and hopefully to stay on target for the projected schedule, uh, which would be the first transmittal hearing in May and then the final adoption hearing in July, July eleventh.

1:50:27All right. Is there any further discussion? Questions? Anything from the public? Anyone on WebEx?

1:50:34No one is on WebEx. You're just checking to see if I was paying attention, huh?

1:50:39Just one comment about

1:50:43impact fee credits. And some clarification. And I there's nothing I don't think there's anything different in this ordinance than exists today. But when a developer is either donates or is exacted land for one of these community or district parks, He's not given credit for the entire impact fee. He's only given credit for the land portion. That is that

1:51:14fee. So it's only a fraction of the fee.

1:51:20Which when you look at that value as developed versus donated, he's paying a hefty price. S

1:51:28so that's uh obviously for a second, Mr. Moody, I thought that was a question, but that is correct. Um in some cases we have structured deals where there could be facility credits issued, assuming the developer build said facilities agreed to the plan. Um that's something that we've also been trying to consider because quite honestly that's another way to get stuff out of the ground quicker than waiting to collect impact fee. But your statement is correct. So again, the exact number uh I don't have in front of me for the land portion, but is slightly over $1,000.

1:52:00Previously, right now it's $117 as a portion of the existing fee structure.

1:52:08So it's in the package. What's in the prestation approximately $700, Keith? The land the land fee.

1:52:14Yes. Yes. Right.

1:52:18We the this is the and the flip side of the flip side of what was being discussed earlier where the a high valuation of land does make the fee higher and that does impact people who have to pay the fee. But a a a higher valuation of land also does provide a better position for the county to work in good faith on equitable terms with a developer who's d donating land because they can afford to use the numbers in here that are a little higher. Um and that developer

1:52:49gets more credit because those numbers are are higher in the study.

1:52:53And I'll just add on to that. So in lots of discussions over the last couple of years, we we talk about this all the time with with the developers. Uh we would love to work with you on that, but unfortunately we can't recognize your land credit value because we don't have enough entitlements in said MPUD to even come close to recognizing that. So there's been uh and i'm not gonna mention any names, but there's been tremendous support for at least raising that section because quite honestly it's difficult to to do any type of deal. So I think if if this fee moves forward to

1:53:23adoption, it would strengthen our ability to kind of maybe do land deals, you know, uh tied to concurrency along with some facility. And then I if there's cash, obviously cash out of out of, you know, uh cash in into the deal as well. So it just it just increases our ability to be fair through the concurrency requirement.

1:53:50Uh and reading your recommended committee action, I do see that included in the mo proposed motion by staff is that it's n it refers to the extraordinary circumstances, John. I didn't realize that was there.

1:54:01Yeah, that we find that the increase is necessitated by extraordinary circumstances.

1:54:06Right. I did not realize that was there. I apologize.

1:54:09And recommend approval of the ordinance to B O C C

1:54:19Well I get the idea that there's about to be some negotiation of this fee. Of course some discussion of it. So so that we can get there.

1:54:32And I'll say that I actually have no intent Of saying absolutely not, no way. There's probably some number here.

1:54:41Mm-hmm.

1:54:42But the way I'll start is with a motion to deny and I would appreciate a second just so that we can start the discussion.

1:54:48I'll second that for discussion.

1:54:51All right, so we're open for discussion. We have a motion to deny and a second. So now it's discussion.

1:54:58Well, I I I mean the the difficulty here is I think obviously that oh look at all the people that are here to speak against this. I mean obviously the community realizes this is something that's needed. Um I don't think a denial gets us anywhere close to where we need to be and gets us moving in the right direction. And I don't think we're up here as a board today to come up with a number that we think's fair.

1:55:17I Actually not assuming that this vote will go my way, Jenny. No, I know. I mean it's that that's my position on it.

1:55:28Okay. I think there was a lot of discussion earlier that we felt like I don't know what depending on whether you're talking about single family detached or multifamily, somewhere between three hundred and fifty and five hundred and fifty percent might be A little extreme. The state law says we can do it fifty percent. Without finding that there's some extraordinary circumstances.

1:55:55I heard the chairman say he might like to be more in line with what the other counties are and I'm gonna ask if we can put that slide back up there Four in line.

1:56:08'Cause that's kind of where I think I would be. And you mentioned some of these other counties have they pay for parks and rec through different assessments as opposed to impact fees.

1:56:19Yeah, yes.

1:56:20Okay. Do you know which of these counties listed here do that by chance?

1:56:26Not not off the top, um unless Alan knows. I know we try to reach out to to kind of hear from Hills and

1:56:33Mm. Yeah, they they have um some of these around the county. I don't think it's a countywide Strategy though.

1:56:48We also need to check on Hillsborough. We this was done a um almost a year ago, this research, so it might behoove us to to confirm there have been a couple of updates around the state that may be noteworthy. with respect to fee structure but also some of the re compliance with the new legal requirements of state statutes that might be informative as we move forward with this.

1:57:16Yeah, I'm kinda with you, John. I you know, I I take issue with the amount all at once, um, especially not knowing Um I know we we need to do it, but we're not going to be able to The amount Uh three hundred and fifty to five hundred and some percent all in one shot is is kind of a difficult pill to swallow especially if we might be Entering troubled waters economically. Um so that might be something for us to

1:57:47look at the the the future uh or look at the surrounding counties, how they pay for these fees. Um you know, see if there's any information about what they are planning to uh 'cause it's not just Pasco County that's experiencing growth. All these counties in Florida are experiencing growth to some extent. So Um what have some of these other counties discussed in terms of meeting the needs of of parks and rec for these influx of people? Um

1:58:14do we know how old the Hillsboro County number is? Is that the right-of-way?

1:58:19So I f I in talking to their director I feel like they've recently I think that number is I think that number's correct for Hillsborough. But again it's calculated by, you know, square feet too, so it's a little

1:58:34At the end of the day it's a that's not a apples to apples comparison. What we have on the table is an estimate yeah range.

1:58:40Keith, am I right to assume that the number here in Pasco is so high because Pasco hasn't done anything in a number of years? So they've got a

1:58:48lot of making up to do? I mean that's yeah, I mean quite honestly that's that's kinda where we're at. So when I talk about six district parks that are still in build out phase in various developments, you know, we're we're not even close to hitting the revenue to getting those built. So that That's and again I remind you it's not consumptive, it's plan based. So plan based off a needs assessment that was very specific through community stakeholders. Um a lot of time put into that. So it's it's not like we're throwing a dart, you know, at the dart board thinking

1:59:18that we need X. We there's a very, very um deliberate approach to come up with the actual total cost.

1:59:28Uh and if we had done the consumption based calculation, this number would be much higher in terms of the the park the value of the park system per capita today is much higher than this fee that's being proposed. Uh we just completed a study in a in a Panhandle municipality. Where the the the value of their park system per person was eight thousand dollars. So that's that was the

1:59:53The stick

1:59:53the sticks and bricks value per per capita. Yeah, so in Pasco County you may have something similar, I would guess in the the range of five to ten thousand dollars would be what your existing value per capita is. And because there's been a lot of previous investment, I wouldn't just I'm saying this because I wouldn't just necessarily say we haven't done anything for twenty years. Pasco County has a great park system. Um and to in order to maintain that that that that type of park system per capita and that value per person. Uh that's why we're in this this range that we're

2:00:23in. But um a lot of communities have those very high valued park systems, but they are if you're charging a thousand dollars park fee, you're falling behind in terms of um keeping up with growth if you're in the state of Florida.

2:00:38So well then just let me ask this question.

2:00:43I'm looking at Hernando County's fees. Max is out at four hundred and eleven dollars. Is the conclusion that we're going to do? They don't have enough park services?

2:00:54What?

2:00:56I don't

2:00:56know

2:00:56whether they do

2:00:56or they don't. I'll answer that question because I because I know. Uh the answer is that they're not even close to to having to provide the level of service that Pasco has right now. Uh and they definitely don't have any projected intentions to supply that product. So that system.

2:01:12All right. So you're saying that they don't have the same level of service as Pasco.

2:01:18What or the same needs I should be? The

2:01:19question would be is the populace in Hernando County screaming that they need more parks?

2:01:28I I I can't

2:01:29speak

2:01:29t to that. I mean I work for Pasco County, but yeah.

2:01:35This not directed at you. And this kind of goes to Discussion about the order here where Where I'm kinda going with this conversation is are maybe did we just adopt a level of service that's too high? That's beyond what reasonable expectations may be. And that becomes the problem of Putting the comp plan before the

2:02:04That's why we need to vote on these things as one not individually.

2:02:11Mr. Chairman Mariano.

2:02:12Yeah, we have a

2:02:13Yeah.

2:02:16Just as a a recap, the way we got to the level of service was the actual is really an access metric based on the growth model that we see in various sections of the county. So we didn't It was built specifically off what's expected to be built out and it you know through twenty forty five. So the level of service, it's not like we were trying to provide this gold level standard of service well beyond what we could afford. This is the basic service package that when an MPUD

2:02:46is zoned or a series of MPUDs are zoned. We commit to the public that this service will be there. I wish I had the level of service map to show you, but when we did the mapping exercise where we put everything that existed, which is a handful of parks, and we we said this is blue, this is the polygon of service area, and it's five miles on existing roads. And this is all the area that we control through concurrency where we have some development agreement to build a park. And we put that in red. And when you take off the

2:03:16red polygon service area, all you see pretty much across the county for the most part, except on the west side, is white. Which means that, what does that mean? That means that we're not cer providing that level of service to the community. So I want to be clear that this isn't like we think we need 25 pools. This is a very specific response to the growth that we've seen on a very base level of service package for parks.

2:03:41So what defines that base level? Is it defined in the Complan, L D C

2:03:46So we worked off the original concurrency trigger of a district park. So we said basically if And you could chime in if you want, but this is from my perspective as the parks director. A district park, basically, from that, you provide all of the athletic facilities, right? And you also provide the recreational program because that's where the staff lives. Maybe if you're lucky enough to have an aquatic center, that's in there too. But basically, the district park model, right, within a five-mile drive, 15 to 20 minutes, that's the reasonable amount of time you can. expect the family to drive

2:04:16every night to soccer practice or to go to karate or to go to pickleball. or whatever whatever whatever is your fancy. And I'm really encouraging you to try it out because y I think you'll love it.

2:04:28I'll tell you a little history about that for a second here and I hate to bore my friends over here, but I live in a C D D community and there are a lot of them in this community. And the a number of people approached our board and I was board member at the time. and we put pickleball in there. So I know pickleball. I don't play it, but uh I do other activities. But uh Which brings me to the question. There are a lot of C D D communities in here in Pasco County and other counties which Brings

2:04:58me the question, how did you determine your level of service? 'Cause I I looked at You have uh Six projects on that list we saw basically for the west side of the county. And I was told that the west side of the county is one of the older development developments of Pasco County because it originally grew from west going east. and Dade City was on the west side of east side of the county, with the central part of the county where I live at in Wesley Chapel as being kind of

2:05:28the a lot of farmland or ranches. I guess ranches would be a better term. But I only see that on the East side of the county, you got seven. But uh Actually the county

2:05:42developed In the east side first. That's where the

2:05:45Well, I'm talk I'm not going back to the eighteen hundreds. I'm saying that that if you look at Hudson, Newport Ritchie uh that area back in the sixties, all the the homes were developed in that part of the county. So that's where the population was was heavily uh Centered. Yes, thank you. And that's where many of the uh developments or the recreational facilities w occurred. I I know 'cause we when I worked very hard for the Wesley Chapel Park about fifteen

2:06:15years ago We worked very hard with I think John Gallagher was the uh the county manager at the time and he was very good by the way. You know, I have to say good things about John because he really worked with us. And uh some of the people that were on that committee now have deceased because we do grow older. But we fought very hard for that park. And I do mean we fought hard. And I'm glad to see it's being used. As much as it's a good thing.

2:06:43the number of projects that you want to bring online and are question in my mind, are they really that Yeah, I can see the list here and I okay. I have a problem with this list, I'll be honest with you. That's the

2:06:59I respect I respect your position. I'm not trying to be argumentative. John. John,

2:07:05one second. If we voted to deny this, or uh are we just really basically 'cause all we're doing is providing a recommendation at the board, right? So so by voting to deny it, really all we're saying is not we're not saying that we don't think that there's needs. We're just saying we we're recommending that the board look at it a little further.

2:07:21Is that correct? Where I was headed, I do not expect a vote of denial. I was trying to get us to discussion because I was

2:07:33Of the belief that I think there's probably some willingness here to Bay's the part impact fee but probably not to thirty four hundred and fifty whatever. Dollars. So yes, I'm making the motion to deny thirty four hundred and fifty dollars, hoping that maybe there's some other number and then I will tell you that I'm sitting here struggling, go, Well what number is that? 'Cause what do I do? Just pull one out of the air and I Yes. I don't know that. I do

2:08:03have a question for the parks director. That I'm t kinda curious about. So we're talking about level of service and you know how much park do we need to provide per capita. How do you account for things like the lagoon at Marat?

2:08:19I was waiting for that. I've been I've been waiting for that question. So it's a great question because I've been so, you know, th my career here with Pasco, I've been very much involved in development review and stuff like that. So um not just from a park side, but from a natural resources side. So The the big distinction between what you see in these HOAs and C D Ds is yeah, there's no question they have they have tremendous amenities, right? But it's very they're very specific amenities. And the amenities and the function of a community center or a crystal lagoon is not

2:08:49the same as the district park model or community park model that we're proposing that you know we would actually be building. Um there's also an access issue, right? So most Of all these CDDs or HOAs are gated. So our goal is to provide affordable recreational opportunities to the population in general. But what I can tell you is that I think it would be tremendous if I can work with a developer to find a way, instead of them building $5 million in a community center, work with us to figure a way to build a public

2:09:19center that is a rec complex that might be located within a development. I could tell you that I've tried to do that, haven't been successful. Um, and and and so what you have is this thought that these community amenities satisfy the park requirements. So what I would like to do is I would propose that um what would uh what is it, Epperson at the Crystal Lagoon? How would they feel if I send um, you know, I don't know, maybe five high school teams over there to do, you know. know, swim lessons or or the general public for

2:09:49summer day camp. The answer is gonna be no. They're not gonna let us go there. So though it's an amazing amenity for the residents of said community, it's not equitable access for the general public. And that's what The board's mission for this parks department is to provide affordable, accessible recreation. And the way you do that is you build these facilities, period.

2:10:11So going back to the nuts and bolts of this whole thing, so there's a recommended committee action, but it's three parts to that. Let's find the proposed ordinance amendments consistent with the Pasco County Comp plan. Recommend that the Board of County Commissioners find that the proposed increase in parks and rec impact fees is necessitated by extraordinary circumstances. And recommend approval of the ordinance amendments to the Board of County Commissioners. Is there any reason why we couldn't approve

2:10:38portions of this? You can break it

2:10:39up. Okay.

2:10:40Absolutely.

2:10:41Um Well we have a motion on the floor, so let's let's deal with that motion first. Right. So that's because while that kind of speaks to the motion on the floor, if there's a denial then we can go back and revisit. Okay. That's a question if it's a denial of all three of those pieces. For

2:10:58the moment. And like I said, I'm not actually expecting a vote of denial.

2:11:03I apologize, Mr. Chairman. If I can make a comment, I believe that you can make an alternate recommendation as well. It doesn't necessarily have to be a denial.

2:11:10Right. You can you can create a recommendation that's something other than what's in front of you. So that's what I'm trying to do.

2:11:16That's what he's trying to do.

2:11:19You know, this is one of these well they say in business negotiation, he who speaks first loses, right? So everybody's afraid to throw out I don't know what that number is. I I I get the idea that the chairman over here is not happy with thirty four fifty. I can tell you I'm not happy. I'm looking at Hernando, that's four hundred and eleven. Well, that's a way less than we already got and

2:11:40Well take a look at Hillsborough County because that did come up. They had looked at it previously. Hillsboro County recently did some amendments. They have a phased-in approach. Their system of setting the base rate is based upon house size. Ours is not. That would be a complete redo of the study. But you could look at their numbers that they get typical average size houses.

2:12:04Pops out at four thousand two hundred and eighteen four four thousand square feet hex. And interesting, they actually go after hotels and lodging as well, which I thought was interesting. So and they have the phase in that you all have been talking about as well.

2:12:17But the a the average house size, let's say it's Two thousand to twenty five hundred square feet.

2:12:26The current impact fee for or what we're talking about is about Twenty one hundred dollars. Twenty one hundred and forty five dollars.

2:12:35With a study that showed uh at three thirty, you know, so they're they have they're not implementing their full study, even though they have an adopted study.

2:12:44So the current rate is t for a average house is somewhere between twenty-one forty-five and twenty-two ninety-nine.

2:12:53Well I I don't know if it's for us to sit up here today and kinda figure out a number that we can agree with. I think, you know, to your To your point, I think it's more about uh, you know, the it at least that's that's my opinion. I mean there there are experts in the room that have worked Extensively on developing this and the and the study and and the like, but When I see what Hillsboro's done here and I see the way they've broken it down and the fact that they you know to to Peter's point previously that they've actually brought hotels into

2:13:25the mix. I mean that seems much more equitable to me to look at something like that and then look at a phase in study I mean that Keith again to the to the point that you know they d the commissioners d directed you last September to kind of get this done and If we were sitting here talking about this last September, the likelihood is we probably would have been in your camp and voted for, but I just I I I can't bring myself to to do that right now the way it is.

2:13:51And this this phase end is I mean it's ten percent between the two years. It could this might be a ten year phase in. Right. So if they vote to kill my motion. Would you be

2:14:00making a motion

2:14:02Well yeah, it's I'm trying to develop that in my in my own. So anyway, if everybody's

2:14:06had a chan opportunity I'd like to call the question. So can we please have a vote on the motion and the second? All in favor of the motion to deny, signify by saying aye.

2:14:18Aye.

2:14:19Uh uh opposed like sign? Nay. Okay. I think that carries. So I hear a new motion. So

2:14:27we're back back to a new motion. So you said that we can neither prove or deny but make a recommendation instead?

2:14:34Well you can make yeah you well you're basically you mean you do have to make a finding of whether or not the amendment is consistent with the comprehensive plan, which sits It's been written by staff, it's consistent. You can you could say yes, it's consistent with the companion. You just adopted that or just uh recommended approval of that, and then you can go on and have another separate motion regarding the extraordinary circumstances, and then you can have a recommendation for the ordinance amendments, which actually sets the actual price is in the ordinance. So you could have some caveats

2:15:05in in that motion on that ordinance.

2:15:07So I'd like to hear a motion to uh as to whether we are consistent with the comp plan.

2:15:15I'll make that motion.

2:15:16What what is the motion? motion?

2:15:22Just that adopted. Not that

2:15:25we just recommended adoption. Well then in that case I'll second that.

2:15:30Okay. Any the further discussion of that motion. Does everybody understand the motion?

2:15:35Yeah.

2:15:36Yeah. All in favor of the motion signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed, like, sign. Motion carries. Next.

2:15:44All right. So did you wanna discuss your thoughts on the extraordinary circumstances necessitating that the impact fee Uh Phased in or not phased in because that is what the sta that's that's one of the things that necessitated this question. Question

2:16:00Elizabeth for legal clarification.

2:16:04With phase in and the cap. That the statute caps the increase at fifty percent. Are you capped if there's this two or four year phase in period?

2:16:16Oh I'm not sure. I wouldn't think you I think you have to meet both prongs of I mean it's let me check out this subsection four.

2:16:25If the phase ends over fifty percent from the existing then which it would be. Unless you go a do a ten year phase in Well it says in the statute says

2:16:35two or four years, so I was

2:16:41The question is is can you go if you agree to phase in over the two or four, can you go over the fifty percent?

2:16:52Not without the extraordinary circumstances. But you you you would have a waiting period every four years you can update it by up to fifty percent. That's the two years. I'm looking at the statute now. I'm not familiar with that, but I'll maybe I'll find

2:17:07that. I'm sorry, I thought I had seen the agenda minimum two or four years.

2:17:11An increase of the current fee which exceeds 25% but's not more than fifty must be implemented in four equal installments. We're not doing that. And impact fee may not be increased more than once every four years. This is kind of

2:17:27So you guys don't know.

2:17:28May not exceed fifty percent of the current impact fee rate.

2:17:34But there are a lot And looking at the Hillsborough County numbers, did they are they exceeding the fifty percent each they're not.

2:17:41No, they and it and that was that that was adopted prior to the statute.

2:17:45Oh. Yeah.

2:17:49So

2:17:49you do not. If you claim extraordinary circumstances that you do not have to worry about the two and four year cycles that are described in the statutes.

2:17:58Or

2:17:58the cap

2:17:58of fifty.

2:17:59Thou shalt limit to fifty and have an update every four years and phase it in if it's fifty percent. Unless you demonstrate extraordinary circumstances in the easement.

2:18:08So and what are we using to demonstrate extraordinary circumstances? What are we hanging our hat on?

2:18:14The what the it's the statute also says you must describe that in the report. So there's a description in the report and the description um alludes to the the period of time with which the the there's been no update to the fee structure. The second, I think, more important point is that in the last two years, construction costs and Keith's put up the the consumer price index up on the screen, has gone up so much that everything the county thought it could build with the money it was collecting Um is is

2:18:44unaffordable to build anymore. And the extraordinary nature of that, um there's and you can read what I wrote in the report, but The the circumstances of COVID nineteen, the circumstances of the response to COVID nineteen. Um And the the the economic ramifications of that that we're seeing um with the global supply chain, with inflation, with other things. are n I don't know that anybody can say with a straight face that that's not an extraordinary set of circumstances. We're talking about a A

2:19:14hundred year virus that caused a A hundred year reaction, whether you liked it or not, with that reaction. Um and it it really threw a wrench into things. And so that that is that is the description that's in there. Um

2:19:27Maybe we could send the bill to China.

2:19:31Right.

2:19:34So okay. That could be a good argument for extraordinary circumstances.

2:19:42Two thousand two. Two thousand two,

2:19:44okay. So the s second portion of this is just determining whether it meets extraordinary circumstances. And then the third portion of it is discussing the actual fee itself. Right. Am I correct?

2:19:56Yeah, we can do it that way.

2:19:57So Do uh do we have a motion on extraordinary circumstances?

2:20:07I will I will I'll I'll move. I'd say I'm moved.

2:20:13Yeah.

2:20:17I can second that. I can st I can second this without any problems.

2:20:22Okay, so we have a motion in a second that does meet the extraordinary circumstances requirement.

2:20:31All in favor of that motion. Is there any discussion? Nobody on web.

2:20:37I

2:20:38thought I'd just second that.

2:20:39Nobody on WebEx, right? He's ignoring this for

2:20:44discussion.

2:20:45Yeah.

2:20:45I didn't make a motion because I I I can't find it that.

2:20:50Okay, so anyway, we we we have a motion, we have a second. All in favor of the extraordinary circumstances signify by saying aye. I think that's a good idea. Well,

2:21:02Like uh an opposition like like sign? No.

2:21:09Okay. Let's have a roll call. Yeah.

2:21:16Mr. Jamie Jordy? Mr. Derek Pontlet?

2:21:19No.

2:21:20Mr. Peter Mansel?

2:21:22Okay, nee, no.

2:21:25Mr. Johnny? I'm sorry about that. Sorry, sorry. Mr. Chris Purple.

2:21:31Hi.

2:21:32Mr. Richard uh Tanell uh Jeremy Charles Gray.

2:21:36Aye.

2:21:38The motion dies. Uh it was two, two, three.

2:21:42So we uh can we make a recommendation So what what was the boat?

2:21:47It was two eyes, three A's.

2:21:49Renate, okay. So that's no we're not finding there's an extraordinary circumstance. Correct. So let's uh let's go.

2:22:01A maximum increase of fifty percent of the fee.

2:22:04And a phasing in

2:22:06Yeah,

2:22:07I mean, yeah.

2:22:08And a phase in that is it both?

2:22:09Yeah.

2:22:10Okay.

2:22:12For me it's just the the change in economic conditions since um the report. Although that that is Uh completely agree with you with everything increasing. We've we've seen it. Uh yeah. But I will say this

2:22:26is gonna be Wanna go home and write was one of the hardest decisions we ever made up here. Yeah.

2:22:34And I'm sure I'll have lots of discussions about it with my neighbors.

2:22:39Of course the BOC but I would support the fifty percent the the state's cap of the fifty percent increase. I could do that.

2:22:49Yeah.

2:22:53Personally I I voted for extraordinary circumstances because you know, there have been some pretty extraordinary circumstances in the recent past and The fact that we haven't updated it for twenty two years or whatever it is. Is Yeah, that makes that makes a huge difference. Um We can't. We can't work on the budgets that we did in twenty twenty twenty twenty oh two. But um

2:23:23You know, I think that's a good thing Still I I have sticker shock when I see that. see that that that number that we came up with. But it's You know. Yeah, that's cool. I agree with Keith too. It's and that's what makes it difficult, is it Need it needs to be done in some way. I just don't know that it needs to be done in totally on on the basis of uh impact fee. And uh I know they've done a lot of work. It pains me to To uh to not approve it

2:23:53because of all the work they've done on it and and now they've really put their heart and soul into it. Absolutely. So But we have to make we have to make a judgment. That's what we're s s sitting here for and I I accept. the majority's judgment on this issue, you know, even though I Don't totally agree with it. Um I think A fifty percent increase is Y you might as well not give 'em any increase if you're only gonna give 'em fifty percent. And uh That's

2:24:25why I voted before in s extraordinary circumstances. You know, I think it Th there should be a substantial increase, maybe not to the level that That we're outlining, but Yeah, in Hillsborough County, for example, an average home Of average size. You know, is it around two thousand to twenty three hundred dollars and I think that's reasonable. my recommendation to the county would have been Yeah, look at what people are

2:24:55around us are doing and let's at let's at least be competitive. You know, go to a number that's competitive and uh So I would have liked to have gotten to that level, so But based upon the fact that we had voted against extraordinary circumstances I'm not sure we have that option. To vote for that.

2:25:18You wouldn't be able to you'd be capped at the fifty percent.

2:25:21Right. And that's why I voted for extraordinary circumstances.

2:25:27We're not making the final decision either.

2:25:29No. Well and and I I was gonna say for the record that's something to explore, is is to explore What keeps us competitive with other counties? Um we probably do need an increase more than than fifty percent. Um but to explore that explore phasing it in as well 'cause I think that's a big sticker shock all in one shot. Yeah.

2:25:48That would be my memo to the to the commission county commissioners. You know Look at a number that's competitive.

2:25:55Keith,

2:25:56how does how does

2:25:56it

2:25:57look at hotels? Sorry. And look at hotels,

2:25:59right. How does Hillsboro County's level of service comp

2:26:05Proposing for example?

2:26:06It's it's I mean I think our needs are comparable, you know in terms of population and and the model and Uh Brad had mentioned something to me. You know, when you're when you're talking about Hernando County and and and Hillsboro County and what we're trying to build in terms of a of a standard for parks. It's you know, you gotta you gotta you gotta set a benchmark and I would say that, you know, the benchmark is is definitely not Hernando County, no disrespect to them. But um you know, so I would say that we're both faced with the same uh demand

2:26:37on facilities with the same goals in terms of what the what what our build outs would look like. If that makes sense.

2:26:43And that's and that's why that's why I'm saying, you know, something competitive with Hillsborough and Penellas County. Yeah, and I would I would agree with

2:26:49you, yeah. I mean we'd like we'd like to the south, not north. Absolutely.

2:26:53So just Yeah, another another point. So Hillsboro's approach was consumptive. They didn't go plan based. And and quite honestly, one of the biggest criticisms that I recall of that that approach was that no one knew what they were getting for the money. So the other reason we went plan base, which obviously adds a very specific price tag to the overall scope, it's clear and transparent. So I think that that's, you know, Hillsborough can say yes, we need X based on our population projections, but you know, outside of then they were going to do their planning effort after

2:27:23the fact. We took a different approach. We did the planning effort i in front of everything and then assessed the actual capital cost and then tied the fee to that cost. Um which again is something that I think the board appreciated as well. So but That's just the distinction between the two counties.

2:27:41I'm with Chuck in

2:27:43that head. Maybe it was Chris that said it. You know, had this been brought to us in September, I'm sure this would have passed with Probably very little. discussion, I think things have changed.

2:27:56Well that's the right-of-way.

2:27:58I'm sensitive to what Peter said at the outset. I

2:28:04I don't want to place it. the burden just on new growth. I think there needs to be a variety of sources and I think if we're going to apply impact fee that we should apply those to Hotels. as well.

2:28:19Yeah, they're gonna profit considerably, especially if you build the larger parks and you have in a lacrosse, you have soccer, you have baseball tournaments. Those bring in hundreds of people, if not thousands of people And this county is growing. And and it's moving towards that direction.

2:28:39Nonetheless they come even if they don't come to participate in a sporting event, they come to use hey, they they came and they rented some kayaks and they used the the launch, the public launch or they They went and rode bikes, rented bikes and took the s the Starkey Park Trail and So they use those things and I think there needs to be They they people who stay in hotels impact our parks. Yep. And I think some of that burden should go to them

2:29:09and Um I think some of the burden goes to the taxpayers. I'm I maybe the ca maybe the commissioners Initially thought they could saddle all the developers with it and didn't need to charge user fees. In my particular case, I'm not necessarily against some user fees.

2:29:29Um one other thing, just facts you might be interested in. The strategic plan that Tourist Development Council will be working on. One of the the things in there was a direction to our tourism department to promote our are our recreational opportunities to visitors, specifically that come to see family members, and how to have a public campaign where you alert the residents residing here about all these great things to bring their family to when the family visits. Whether they stay in hotels or or not.

2:29:57We just had some family come from up north and that's what we did. We We're looking for a place to get together. Well, hey, let's go cook some hamburgers down at the park.

2:30:06Let's go hit the boat ramp. Let's

2:30:07do that.

2:30:09Well and and speaking to extraordinary circumstances again, some of the things that were mentioned we definitely went through, but they are also as someone that studies economics for a living. it's also some of that is cyclical and can potentially uh change in the near future with uh the whatever new cycle happens. So you could see some of those construction costs fall back and some of the labor costs fall back and so forth if if, you know, uh the cycle

2:30:39continues.

2:30:45costs will always go up and that values will always go up. We know that they're cyclical. And maybe over the long term, yeah, you know, they what do they say? The Dow Jones is a roller coaster that's always going up. But

2:30:58But you could have some you could have some um deflation in some of these areas. And once, you know, with with an impact fee, once Pandora's box is open, it's it's there. You can't you can't roll it back. So that's that's the other thing to consider. Um you know, making a long term decision based on a cyclical event. Um and and me speaking as conservative I also I weigh very heavily any kind of new taxes that are

2:31:29I gotta look at why did the legislature pass such a cap. What was going on. They they saw some need To cap it.

2:31:42Did you say that? I I'm sorry, I was David Goldstein is is emailing me right now about what's going on. So did did you say something to the effect that you can't roll back the impact fee once it's in the right-of-way?

2:31:59Yeah, but you're in in fact the the legislation. Yeah, you can't and and and frankly the legislation actually had to be clarified some couple sessions ago to provide that if you did reduce Impact fees, the 90-day notice of making that ordinance effective did not apply to rollbacks because there was some fear someone would do that. But

2:32:16I guarantee he'd be screaming if we were up here and wanted to roll back the image.

2:32:29I just sent my check in.

2:32:30And w you know, once he's in the process of buying a buying a new piece of land it's it's tough to roll that back. So um Anecdotally too, I don't know how many times that's actually happened in this county where impact fee have actually gone backwards.

2:32:42Yeah, I think we did in two thousand seven. I'm pretty sure we haven't em.

2:32:45I think we did for something. Yeah, for a certain amount

2:32:47of time. Yeah, maybe. But it was a temporary thing, yeah. And Parks I recompretty.

2:32:58The admin people, yeah. Oh yeah, yeah. Not the teachers.

2:33:05add and and I think Keith said this earlier. Um One of the the things that we deal with when we're looking at master plan communities, which a lot of the stuff that's happening in in the county is master plan communities, um our developers are not generally pursuing construction of these types of facilities. because there's not enough of a of a credit that they can get to do that. They can't cover that cost. So we have I think we have a lot of people that are willing to make some of these really nice facilities for us. if

2:33:36they can get credits towards that. And with the fees in the in the way the fees are currently structured, there's not an ability.

2:33:46And that's the shame of this ordinance and in some ways I'm hesitant because this ordinance sets out what they can get credit for. Maybe we need to come up with a more creative structure that allows them to To do that. I think we have to recognize that the value of there's a difference between the value of their raw land as a park. and the value of their potentially developed land as rooftops, that maybe there needs

2:34:16to be a bigger Credit a bigger piece given to them, a bigger credit given to them.

2:34:24I think think that's

2:34:25what Brad is

2:34:25saying, yeah. Yeah.

2:34:28But if we vote for this ordinance that that doesn't do that,

2:34:31it keeps it.

2:34:34I understand. way to look at it, Brad. You know, I think there are you know, there are other sources, you know, that we can go to In addition to These fees.

2:34:49But if they're given that credit they need to know that the responsibility Great. go falls on their shoulders to allow others to use that facility who may or may not live in that community. I mean that's the point. I live in a C D D community and you're right. the people that live in there and pay the fee can use these facilities. But Anyone outside the committee community cannot, but that's a a good idea if it the developers uh can realize that gee I can either give you and develop this for you at a lesser

2:35:19cost than I could for paying these impact fee, they might be encouraged to do that or they may not.

2:35:25I don't think it's gonna be a not to interpret I don't think it's gonna be at a lesser cost. I think it'll just be faster. Uh quite honestly, I mean yeah we when we did the Starkey deal, it's not like they did it th it was cheaper, it was they did it quicker because

2:35:38Mm-hmm. I'm a developer. And I give you fifty acres for a park. Do you only credit me with what your land cost is in this breakdown for that fifty acres?

2:35:51It's so it's basically highest and best used is appraised value. Not it's not appraised artificially at like a park value land or something. So it's a negotiated the the value is negotiated very similar to what the school board does. And I can tell you quite honestly, one of the issues I've had with that process is kind of what you alluded to a little bit ago was There is a distinct difference between raw land and the uh a property that's built out. And typically what we see, unfortunately, is we see someone want to assess

2:36:21that uh I think it's called a total HUD value. So it's it's the total all-in cost for for said property to be developed. Developed when typically they might have bought that raw land from the previous owner just at the raw land value. So typically we're always dealing with values that are well beyond the raw land value. I mean almost every time. Which is why I think, you know, one of the big one of the big things that we are kind of excited about the fee going up is what I mentioned earlier is a larger a larger land value associated

2:36:52to the fee gives us a lot more flexibility because previously before we just had no way to negotiate. Um y you know, and Uh yeah, I don't know if I answered your question, but um it's it's an agreed upon value that's identified in the land development code. Ironically, the land development code talks about some percentage of the uh property appraisers number, but we all know that that number is

2:37:14I guess what

2:37:14I'm getting at is to the developer, w what's it worth to him as rooftops?

2:37:19Mm-hmm.

2:37:21Yeah, a lot more.

2:37:25Well I mean I would argue that if you're if there's a concurrency requirement you're you're obligated to the code to designate something. So in order to to avoid a taking we have to come to some agreeable value at the end of the day. And that's usually what we do. It's somewhere in between You know, what what they think and what we think. Never usually a fund negotiation though.

2:37:46So just as a quick point of order, um we voted to agree that the proposed ordinance amendments were consistent with the comp plan. We uh denied that we thought that uh the proposed increase was necessary by extraordinary circumstances. So does the third part, the recommended approval of the ordinance amendments to the BOCC, does that die with that? Or do we have to

2:38:12address that

2:38:12separately?

2:38:13Um if you look at the ordinance itself, there's multiple things that it does. It cleans up old language, it uh sets the rate, whatever the rate is, on a per unit basis instead of housing type, it adopts the study, the level of service. It then also moves the boundaries of the three fee districts. It allows for changes by resolution to be made without need to amend the land development code if things get changed in the capital plan. Those are all good things that move this whole thing forward. If

2:38:43you don't like the number, that that's something different. I mean, you could recommend approval of the ordinance, however, you don't like the fee because there There's a lot of good stuff in here that you do want to see made.

2:38:53I don't like the idea that it can just be adopted by resolution when we get a new this goes back to the same thing as the design manual question.

2:39:02I'm going to defer to Keith to explain that because I didn't work on that.

2:39:07You have a one of your slides that show what can be done by resolution instead of land of element code changes for the capital plan?

2:39:15I think the I think the thought was there is that if there's any changes to is it kind of the di the de definition of capital plan. I think there was We were trying to be clear that if the board chose to swap stuff out, that it whatever that change was had to be um adopted by resolution, is what I understand.

2:39:32Okay, can you show him what those those things were? I'm I'm trying to find the section.

2:39:40I'll give you the page on John as soon as I find it.

2:39:44Well he answered the question. I'm just gonna tell you that I'm phys philosophically opposed to that. I'm Since I've been back in this seat, I've been a major proponent of due process and I think these are things that affect other people's business and that a public hearing is warranted, not just by resolution. It's a good thing.

2:40:03I think

2:40:03we all talked about that.

2:40:04Yes, I watched that one. Page two forty eight. Page page two forty eight, paragraph number three, it talks about changes that could be made to the capital plan without requiring an amendment to the impact fee structure in the L D C Moving projects to different phases, replacing existing facilities or projects.

2:40:25Adding facilities or projects to the plan.

2:40:29So forth, you can read that. So um

2:40:33Yeah, what what's the question specifically to so add?

2:40:36Well I was explaining what is being modified in the land development code that they would want to go forward with, regardless of not liking the number, because you want that approval, uh recommendation of approval of the ordinance, correct? But then we're not going to be able to Mr. Moody brought up the concern he had at a prior meeting about the development review manual and how changes are being proposed to be made to that by resolution without this board actually referring to them. or seeing them. So it's a similar concept. However, these are changes

2:41:06to the plan, not changes to the code. that would be made by resolution. So you may feel better about that.

2:41:16I

2:41:16still think it warrants

2:41:17a public hearing.

2:41:19Yeah, well so that's that'd be one thing that we wouldn't want to approve then.

2:41:23So is your concern that any changes to the capital plan that would be associated to this to this ordinance you would want to see that? process through a public hearing is what I'm Yeah.

2:41:33That the public deserves their chance. Maybe they'll show up, maybe they won't. They deserve their Data speak.

2:41:42So is that your um motion to to approve it with those caveats that and the fee actual fees whether

2:41:54Well

2:41:54you know

2:41:58future land use b decisions, then this is a tough one. I mean it's

2:42:03I would add that unlike unlike zoning and land use decisions, the statutes are not very clear at all about how one is supposed to update the plan in a plan based fee, impact fee study. They leave it to local governments jurisdictions. So whatever is being discussed here that The statutes do not provide very good guardrails. You we're gonna have to spare it ourselves in terms of the due diligence and uh airing out of any changes to the master plan. The reason that list is there is because um Mr. Goldstein

2:42:33in particular was wanted to make sure that we had a defined process for changing the plan in the case that, you know the community decided to build something different. the fees based on the plan and so you'd kinda do have to go replace that project and make sure that you are replacing it with something that meets the letter of the statutes and the letter of the law.

2:42:57Uh

2:42:58I'm in the engineering business and one of the things we like to tell the our clients is that we make plans, but all plans are subject to change, so

2:43:06So John, I I I like the way you the direction you're going. W why don't you just make a motion to incorporate those things?

2:43:12Okay, so I would make a motion to

2:43:20approved the ordinance with the following recommendations to the BCC. That is one. That they

2:43:32more in depth study the rate and try to bring it in line. If they should find that there's an extraordinary circumstance in line with our neighboring counties, and I will tell you that I don't personally find that Collier County is one of our neighboring counties.

2:43:50that the capital plan Be changed. After do public hearing.

2:44:08Yes, and that the and that anyway. Yes, that the fee applied any increase in impact fee also applied to hotels. that they explore Other possible sources of revenues for funding The capital improvements of parks. I re recognize we're not talking about the operations. And will that include phasing? And include, yes, phasing them in, whether those

2:44:38be MSTU fees, impact fees, and the like. I guess what I'm saying is you need to study

2:44:45the issue a little bit more. So we have a motion, it's a pretty specific motion. We have a second.

2:44:51I'll second that.

2:44:52Okay, we have a motion and a second. Any further discussion of the motion? If not. All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed, like, sign? Motion carries.

2:45:08There we go. Right. Thank you very much for your discussion and input. I appreciate it.

2:45:14Yeah, I think that's a good thing. Thank you for your work your work. You you you all did a great job. I

2:45:19recognize you're in a tough position. The board tells you to do something and you come in here and all of a sudden this isn't what you expected. It's not It's not a reflection on you. They

2:45:30the board may totally agree with disagree with us. They may. Quite fast for us.

2:45:40If it's a problem, blame it on Brad.

2:45:46We

2:45:46blame everything on Brad already, so he's ignoring me.

2:45:51Yeah. Denise is ignoring me. Everybody's ignoring me. Alright, we'll blame it on Denise.

2:45:57All right. Whatever we did, we'll feel session.

2:46:00We're blaming it on you, buddy.

2:46:01That's

2:46:01comfortable territorial. Yeah.