PC12 private skeet shooting range conditional use
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The county’s agenda for Planning Commission, Oct 10, 2019
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The county’s minutes for Planning Commission, Oct 10, 2019
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What was said
Machine transcription of 1h 12m of recording, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 85% of 351 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.
Okay, so Mr. Chairman Mariopening the public hearing on PC twelve. PC twelve, right.
And that concluded my presentation.
Okay.
Um before we start, I just want to there is an ex-party form in the packet for Mr. Gerardi. I just want to make sure there was no other ex party meetings that are not in the packet.
So I I was requested to meet by Ms. Geiger, but she never met with me.
Yeah, those requests for to meet are in there. I see that. I just want to make sure there's nobody else that had an actual meeting other than Mr. Girardi. No. But then we're good.
Okay.
Good afternoon. I've a before he starts I have a question of the staff. Oh sure. If that's that's a bad thing. Uh Denise um So this this item came about because there was a code violation. Correct.
Yes, there was a uh complaint placed into our citizen services code enforcement and uh code enforcement officer went out, saw that there was development without a permit. Um in order to remedy it you have to get a site development permit. In order to get a site development permit, you have a c you need to get a conditional use. Yes.
There was um a letter in there He's
one of the correspondence back to it, uh letter of objections that stated that as they were writing the letter There was um they were listening to
the range being used. So do we know if the range has been used since they were cited and are they allowed to do that?
Um I'm gonna answer the first question which is the ranges being used since they were cited.
Okay. So David help me remember here. Is that
So uh technically they would be in violation because because they don't have the conditional use approval. But that being said, we typically will not take enforcement action if they have a application in to get the approval. I mean it's they're kind of proceeding at their own risk by operating while there's a pending approval, but We Typically the judge won't rule on it if they know they're trying to come into compliance.
So they're sorta allowed to do that.
I wouldn't say that they're allowed, I would say that we're not taking enforcement action to stop it. I wouldn't say that it's a legal use of the land because they don't have the conditional use of approval. But we are not actively taking enforcement action to stop the use.
All right. Okay. Thank you. Thank you, Mr. Chairman Mariano.
Okay.
You're the applicant?
Can
you state your name and address please? Absolutely. Good afternoon. My name is Matt Newton. My address is one oh one East Kennedy, uh down in Tampa. I'm an attorney at Shoemaker Lupin Kendrick.
I'm going to to kind of go over a little bit of what Denise or Ms. Hernandez had already had already said, but just some background here. The Visi family, who is sitting here in the front row, I don't know. This research's in the back. Their daughter is a competitive skeet shooter. She's one of the uh leading skeet shooters in the state. And she's a she's preparing for the 2020 Summer Olympics. And the
letter here from the from the USA shooting team talking about the importance of regular practice for Ms. Visi. So we have continued to be using the range while this process goes on. But we're we're thankful for the opportunity and for staff working with us throughout this process to get everything straight. The Busy family have been a little bit more.
Oh yeah, I will uh submit this to the record.
Okay. Can you go ahead and give that to the question? So we can get it.
Absolutely.
Thank
you.
Second. All in favor? Aye.
So with that background with the necessity to continue practicing, the Visi family had been very interested in finding agricultural property with which to to use for their daughter to practice their craft. Uh she practices several hours a day, and an interruption in practice can be devastating to her preparation for competitiveness. So after considerable search throughout the the region, they did find fifty-two acres of property in Pasco County, uh off of Bellamy Road. and went
into uh discussions to purchase it. They had reached out to the county and understood that as long as the property was not being used for commercial uses, uh they were fined to continue practicing on that property. And commercial uses, the specific example was are they using it for lessons? So with that mindset, they went forward. And assembled. this uh this skeet shooting range here. Uh as Ms. Hernet has uh described, the facility has two components, which is a high house and a low house.
Within each of these sheds are uh remote controlled target launchers. They're they they they launch little orange disks. And they're also used to contain uh supplies for the uh cow grazing that's been going on on the property for some time. Um in addition there's these these uh concrete ranges and or shooting positions in between. Now when they received the code enforcement uh warning. Uh their mindset was well we can either
Tear this down or go forward with the conditional use. Um of the understanding that we can agree to some conditional some conditions on the property and a lot of those conditions we agree with um and we'd like to to see attached um and there are some that we disagree with. Um now if if we can't go forward the only options for her to continue practicing are with these traps on a tripod. And this is not an ideal situation. It wastes time
to set up. It doesn't create these same competitive uh and uh conditions that the actual uh competitive international standard skeet shooting arrangement does. Instead it creates a lot of moving parts, it's not as safe, it's not as predictable.
As Ms. Hernandez had pointed out, the location is located right off of Belney Boulevard, south of Johnson Road. The zoning designation is agricultural. The future land use designation is agricultural as well, with a density of one dwelling unit per ten acres, which is one of the least dense portions of the county. And it is located in the rural transition area of the county, which is an area designated to transition between area one here.
and more intense urban uses. So while this is in the agricultural and rural overlay, It isn't meant for more intense more urban eases. Uh the site itself, the the site is located about sixteen hundred feet off of Malibu Boulevard. It's not uh uh readily visually uh ascertainable from the road. It's set back quite a bit a ways.
And And there's no there's some limited screening existing to the top, to the north, um, but a condition that we're willing to go forward with is to put more privacy and visual screening along the north and the south areas, where we understand there are concerns about the consistency. Um we had the neighborhood meeting on July first and noise was a significant concern and as the letter you had read pointed out. it is audible. We've done some exploring
on ways to mitigate that. And Uh frustratingly, we just we can't afford it. Uh the condition that's being requested is a twenty-foot berm. the based on our research, the cost to build a 20-foot berm of that nature would cost between $65,000 and $112,000 along the north and southern perimeter. And further studies conducted by the US Department of Transportation, while it is very difficult to reduce decibels by 15, it's almost impossible
to reduce it by 20. So the invest one hundred and twelve thousand dollars even if we had it, uh our position is that it wouldn't do much good to mitigate the noise. Uh the best methods of mitigation in our opinion, is to limit the hours.
And we are ready to limit those hours to h to none before nine A. M. none after four PM, as well as no shooting on Sundays. Additionally, we've none shoot on Good Friday, Easter, Thanksgiving, or Christmas Day. Um our promise to run with the land that this would never be used for commercial purposes, just for the Visi family, uh to practice for her competitive skeet shooting. We'd f freely work with the Department of Environmental Protection to put together a environmental
plan. And let that be governed by the Department of Environmental Protection? And work with Denise and her staff to put together reasonable privacy screening between the property to the south and the north. so that they don't have to look at uh the shooting range all day. Um these are the conditions in occur in addition to the boilerplate conditions that we can talk about with staff. uh that we're willing to commit to. uh to mitigate the offsite impacts of this range. That's our presentation. I'm happy to answer any questions.
Before or after public comment.
My first question would be the uh items that were listed by Mr. Hernandez in uh in terms of I guess for lack of a better word, limitations. Um you object to any any specific ones there?
The the 20-foot burn is is a big concern for us. Um I do have concerns from a legal perspective. perspective that I can talk to about with with the County Attorney's Office about indemnification for legal challenges. for attorney's fees and the perpetuity if that was something that we're concerned with.
What would you what would you put
in place of a berm? Twenty-foot berm. Well the berm, frustratingly, is the cheapest option. The average cost for a linear foot of a twenty-foot verm is six dollars. uh that's opposed to a mixed linear cost which is about twenty-one dollars a foot. Um but the the massive size of the site creates a a cost prohibitive proposition. So our R Pardon me. I guess I'm going backwards, or unless oh that's the case working on the Um
our sound mitigation strategy is to limit the hours. I'm sorry? What would
be the
total cost of the berm there? For a for a twenty-foot physical berm, the average cost pro uh produced by the federal government in twenty ten is would be sixty five thousand dollars. For burn. For a mixture, which would be a berm wall combination, would be $112,000. And that's average back in 2010. So those prices may have fluctuated. Okay. So is that the only thing you're objecting to? Uh we are we are objecting to the to the the
language of the of the environmental one as as written. Um
But that's that's only because we have a a preemption issue. Um we're we're concerned with the wildlife survey. The the cost of that. Um to have it be running to ha not have it run with the land but run just with the family. I mean that's something we can discuss, but that's something that we've not uh been a fan of.
Do you have a red line or something of like that shows what I mean, 'cause it's difficult for the Planning Commission to react to what you're typically
You know, if the Barbara Wilhite was up here, she would give us a red line. Okay, have that shows what you're willing to agree to and what you're not willing to agree to. We don't have that. So do you have such a thing that shows kind of a strike to an underline of what against what staff proposed?
I do not. I can provide that between now and the BOCC hearing.
Okay, I'm just saying it's going to be very difficult for the Planning Commission to vote up or down on these conditions without knowing. I mean, you're making general overview statements about objecting to part of this condition or part of that condition. Sure. That's very difficult for this body to react to without a red line document that shows exactly what language you're objecting to.
I suppose uh an option we could do would be a recommendation Uh based on yeah, I I I hear what you're saying.
We could we could recommend we could we b we could base a recommendation to approve
Condition down at an ex uh
I supp I po I suppose the most practical way would be to recommend denial.
Well, I mean i if if if the planning commission is inclined to deny it it doesn't matter. Right. Okay, okay. But if they incline to improve it with conditions They could just go with staff version. Okay.
But
you're saying you're objecting to all or parts of staff's version. I'm only pointing out that it's difficult you're just making generalized statements here about not liking this condition or some I mean just but for example the identification you said you had some concerns with I don't even know which part of it you're concerned with 'cause you don't have the red line.
Sure.
Um hours of operation, it sounds like you're generally okay with it, except for your some holidays you're you're not agreeing with so My point is that's difficult for us to react to up here without a red line. So I mean I think regardless we need to conduct a public hearing and I just I think it's gonna be difficult I mean. We don't like to invent these things on the fly up here trying to do wordsmithing. That's why we ask if
you've got changes to conditions we get a red line so we know what we're voting on. Sure. And we're not talking about just one condition here. You're talking about the entire set of them. Sure. So
I understand your concern. Uh maybe
we could have the public hearing to see if the Planning Commission is even inclined to approve it, but we may need to continue it to work out these conditions because we don't ha there's nothing for them to act on at this point.
I understand your concern.
If they're even willing to approve it with conditions.
We we would agree with a to a continuance on that basis.
Okay, well regardless we need to have the public hearing, but I I just I'm pointing out to you that I think it's gonna be difficult I mean, unless the chair says otherwise, I I think it's gonna be hard for them to vote on something where they don't know what language they're voting
on. Yeah, I think that's exactly right. And uh Um
You know, and I think I mean my observation is the staff's tr obviously trying to work with you and give you some conditions that, you know, I feel for the most part are are quite reasonable. Um Mm-hmm.
So I think they're trying to work with you and and make it work for you, but um you seem to be resisting it. We don't really know where you're trying to go with it. And I think it's a little bit confusing and I think David's right, you know, we we we need something a little more solid to look at that we can tell maybe possibly the best thing to look to do would be continue it. Okay.
Well I I Since there's people here to speak to it I think you should hear to the public on the on the matter. I'm just I I don't want the applicant to g or the public to believe that there's likely to be a vote today given where we stand on this condition.
Unless it's a vote for denial, because that would be wouldn't require any condition.
So during his presentation you m he you m he made a statement go back one more picture please that's if if this is not approved then they would be forced to utilize this what I'm gonna call a portable skeet shooting machine.
Do we does the county agree with that that if this isn't approved that they can still use this to shoot?
So this gets into a nuance of the state law on guns. Um And Mr New and I have had many conversations on this issue, but generally the state law is that if you're just shooting a gun out there without any infrastructure We're a preemptive. We can't There we can't do anything about that to regulate. So she was just out there shooting her gun and there was no infrastructure. There's not much we can do. Again, we didn't create this
state law. This is something the legislature did, but but there's an exception for quote gun ranges. So the issue is what constitutes a gun range. Our historical position is if you're putting in infrastructure of any if you're materially altering the land, if you're engaging in development, and it results in a gun range, that's a gun range. So if they were putting up berms out there and they were shooting into the berms, that's a gun range.
But but also uh wouldn't it be if it's for commercial use?
We our code doesn't really I don't think I don't think the state law, Mr. Newton disagrees with me, but I don't think the state law distinguishes between commercial and non commercial use. It it's it's really is it a rain gun range or not? So to answer your question directly, That device likely would not be construed as development. It's not materially altering the land. It's just it's a machine on top of the land. They're not building a berm. They're not putting little houses out there or they're they're not doing anything to
alter the land. And so we likely would say that's not development and therefore we can't regulate it if they chose to do it. Okay. And I'm not saying this law makes sense. Okay. I I don't want to
Well a lot of what comes out of the legislature
doesn't make sense. Because because I'm not sure that that the from the citizens' perspective it's materially different. That versus the but we're stuck with what the legislature has done to us. And he said we're preempted unless it's a gun range. Our position is it's a gun range if it's if they're engaging in development of the land. If they're not engaging in development of the land, it's very difficult for us to say that that's A g a gun range.
So so what our position is because they've built these two structures there that they had developed.
If they had not built all this right here, we likely would not have cited them. Is that right, Denise?
That's correct.
So if all they have was that little machine that you saw in the other picture, they likely would not have been selected.
Well the fact of the matter is they still be shooting guns and it sounds at least the letters of objections I'm waiting to hear the testimony from the public but the letters of objection are around the fact that they're just charging weapons at them.
Cor yes, but some of that is pr the mere discharge of weapons is not something we can regulate. Right, I get that. Because the legislature told you told us we can't.
Right.
However, we can regulate gun ranges. That's the reason this is before you is because they built a gun range and Mr. Newton is generally accurate that if they dismantled it and just did this, there's not much we could do. Okay. Not saying because we wouldn't want to do something about it. It's because the state has told us we can't.
No, I get that. But so by going through this process and having at least some conditions, would would appear to me that that would be an improvement for the surrounding neighborhood or neighbors. I mean, and specifically the hours of operation that they're allowed to do it versus You know. all the time. So it would seem to me like
By by going in this direction with some conditions on it that are acceptable, um
the neighbors in are in a better position than they currently are now. Or will be. And I
suspect that was my staff is recommending approval with conditions.
Right.
Okay.
That makes
sense. Thank you. Okay. Do you have anything else you want to add or any other questions from our client or not at the moment, happy to have the public.
Okay, who who would like to come up and speak on this topic? Okay, if you're gonna speak, uh get ready and come on up and the closer you are to the front the better off y you'll have a chance when
Well she's technic but did did she use did you use all of his twelve minutes?
Uh you're
Okay. Do
you wanna give some of your twelve minutes to her? You're you're with the applicant. I'm sorry.
Yes,
absolutely. Okay. Okay.
Hi.
Hi.
My name is Donna Bizzy. Um I am the ski shooter. What's your address? I'm sorry. Um [address removed]. Okay. [address removed].
Um I'm a four-time World Championship medalist, two-time national champion, just medaled at the Pan American Games, and as of last week I am halfway on to the Olympic team for 2020. And I just wanted to tell you guys how much it means to me to keep this here because this is why I've been able to meddle at the Pan Am games recently, make, you know, halfway make the Olympic team. And um I just really needed to train and this is my passion. This is
what I love to do. I wanna, you know, compete for my country as long as I can and I would just love your help. With it.
You know, on agricultural land you can shoot whenever you want. I mean, that is a Florida, you know, right. It's a Second Amendment right and I just feel like I'm being penalized for building um a more immaculate field than just the little stand that he showed you. And I am trying to be courteous. I do shoot between nine and four every day and I have taken every Sunday off since they said that. And also somebody asked me to not shoot
one day and I didn't and And I you know, I'm just I'm trying to be courteous but I have to do my job as well and Yeah. Thank you guys. That's about all I have to say.
So can I ask you a question? Do you shoot six do you shoot six days a week?
Um, not anymore. I shoot five days a week.
Five days. Okay.
Oh sorry, six days a week. I don't cheat seven days a week anymore. I take every Sunday off.
Okay. Can I ask a question too? The the condition that Talked about a limit on the number of people that can be there. First of all, are you all in agreement with that that it's a maximum of four? Are you all okay with that condition?
Uh no that's not something we would readily accept at the moment. Um but this is but we're willing to continue talking with staff.
Well I guess that that's the root of my question is how many people Our what's the maximum number of people that would be out there shooting at any one time?
Um, so I have to have somebody who pulls the target for me so they're not actively shooting, but they have to be on the range because they have to hear me and then sometimes I ha I have somebody pulling for me and also my co chair watching me, so that would technically be three people in the range. And I have had a friend come out and shoot with me before. So that's about it. But
Yeah the the Matt Newton again, typically there's the average is three, which was used for the the traffic and impact study.
So i if you're never having more than three, what is the objection to the limit of four?
It's it's it's difficult for a property owner to take on burdens that aren't necessarily necessary. Um if there if the and it could create confusion if there if there had to have two people out there one day in addition to the the stor the team. So but the five suddenly we're out of control. Well
but then you make a representation for traffic purposes that it wouldn't be more than three?
That is the that is the typical representation, yes sir.
So if that was your representation to staff, why what's the objection to actually limiting you based on the representation you made to staff?
As as as an attorney, I I feel caution with with creating conditions on a property that may fluctuate in the future. No, no I'm not saying twenty people there, thirty people there. But if we have a condition of four people And one day five people show up, we're out of con we're out of compliance.
They could change the condition to five. I mean if that's that's why I'm asking the question. Yeah. If the if the objection is the number four I mean Planning Commission could change it to five or shake it over, but but for you to say we have an unlimited number, even though we represented the staff, it would be three, that That's not atypical for the Planning Commission to limit the number if your representation was that it would be a limited number.
If if it's the pleasure of the Planning Commission to cre to put a a solid number on there, we're happy to to discuss that.
Okay. But in general you've never had more than four?
Yeah.
Okay. And it was my question. Okay.
I guess while you guys are there I I s I got a couple of questions just for you. Uh obviously in your address didn't sound like it was here, so you don't live on the property, you come to the property every day?
Yes.
Is there not a range like ten minutes down the road at Tampa Bay Sporting Clays? They don't have what you do.
They don't have a ski field. That's Olympic style. It's not like the stations aren't in the right spot. So it would be honestly worse for me to train there than to not train at all.
I I just wasn't sure. I've never done
this side. I mean I've been
out there but I didn't know what I
do have
that separate area to the side of the picnic pavilion, but I dn I thought that was what that is. But
yeah, it looks like that but it's not in the right spots. 'Cause it they they didn't have enough space to make it as big.
Okay. It's like having an Olympic pool that's about pointing.
Not really Olympic pool. It's
a good way to set a rule, right?
Okay. Uh Anything else from the applicant?
I believe uh Mr. A. J. Vizzy, uh Danya's father, would like to speak briefly. Okay. Could you state your name and address, please?
So Arthur Busy, [address removed].
My name is AJ Vizzy. I'm Donnie's dad. My wife and I purchased 50 acres off Bellamy Brothers in an agriculturally zoned area for a ski field for Donnie to practice for the upcoming Olympics. Before we purchased the land, I researched the zoning standards in Pasco County and read about the conditional use of outdoor fire and archery ranges. So I called the county to see if it applies to private skiers. field for our daughter. It took me about four or five people before someone said, Oh, I know who you need to talk to, and
he gave me the number for a man name and I don't know if I'm gonna pronounce the last name correct. but a Mark Dericott that works for Pasco County, who understood what his key field was. and told me that I wouldn't need a conditional use permit unless Dania would ever want to teach or coach somebody out there, or if we were going to charge people to come in and shoot on it. You know, he said you might wanna consider doing this at some time in case after she you know, practices and decides not to shoot competitive anymore that if she wouldn't want to coach. And now that we purchased
a property and started practicing there, the county decided that we needed the conditional use permit because the houses we erected were land development when we actually Just built 'em for two reasons. Storage. Further R you know, like um farming equipment that we use and for cattle feed and for the purpose of putting these machines in to keep them dry. When we originally met with staff after we got the citation, we were led to believe that applying for the conditional use permit
would be the easiest solution to our disagreement that using a private field we had was our right. of landowners in the state. So we applied for the permit And right before we s the scheduled meeting two months ago um we had seemed to have negotiated the conditions that would be supported by the Commission. Then right before the hearing, the day before or the evening before, we were told that they weren't ready and would have to postpone it for a month. Um then the unreasonable conditions started to come. Conditions
that would be fine for a company that wanted a commercial range. with multiple fields and would have income to be able to afford. What? the condition that they're asking for. They are cost prohibitive for us and therefore unreasonable. I get it. Some people are complaining about the noise from the report of the gun. But most of our neighbors are okay with it because it is not any different than what they hear around them all of the time. In fact the biggest complainer And Miss Ann McKinley, who I'm sure has written you all letters,
thinks it's okay for her family to shoot on their property. And not my daughter. It's funny how the noise doesn't bother her when her son's shooting out there But it bothers her with my daughter shooting out there. You know, we're we're willing to limit hours and days to help with this. We are asking for your support in helping Donnie achieve her goal, a dream of making the 2020 Olympic Games, and bring a gold medal back to the USA and Pasco County, but we can't agree to conditions that are beyond
our capabilities. Thank you.
Thank you.
Mm-hmm. Uh Matt Newton, uh uh no more for the uh applicant at this point. Thank you. Thank you.
All right. Uh I believe somebody had their hand up back there. Wanna come forward and state your name and address?
Sure.
Good afternoon, Commissioner. My name is Glenn Stevenson. I reside at [address removed]. My property is at the
adjacent to this property at the back. Um Before I go into my preamble, I would like to show you a video. that was called Sunday Gunday. on Instagram and it has no relationship with skeet shooting. It has a relationship with an AF-15. Now shooting an AF fifteen. Requires a bone. Now this is on a social media site. for people to see that this young lady
is not only a great skeep Um Shooter, but it's very efficient with her AF fifteen, and I find it quite reckless. So What I'd like to say I have some um concerns and recommendations. The first thing I'd like to say is I'm not here to kill somebody who's dreams to be an Olympian. That's not why I'm here. I find it interesting that they can quote all these awards. But they haven't just happened. They've happened before they purchased the property
as well. So this property isn't key for success as an Olympian. because she's already been a national champion. So my business has been impacted n negatively. I have lost people that boarded horses with me that are very expensive broodmares. I run a breeding program. I have a reproduction lab at my farm. Originally they told me it was going to be two hours a day. It was more like four to five hours, seven days a week, in our direction.
I can actually hear it hear it. in my house. I'm the closest property to their property and I get all the noise in my house. I have tried to coexist with the applicant. Um but the reply was negative. Um they said that the the neighbors were verbally abusive. Well that was not me. I don't know about my neighbors, but I never got into a verbal confrontation.
Fi five days a week? nine till four, two days off and and um keep to the holidays that uh relate to Florida. Um
I have also boarding horses that want to ride the horses. I can no longer ride up into that far corner of my property. I don't have a uh a pen to point it out. Um but it is uh maybe um you can show them. Oh, is that it? Okay.
Okay. So I'm here. In here. And I have people riding horses up in the area. You know, I need to know what what um What are they gonna how can I reassure that there's not gonna be stray bullets when people are riding horses? I can't turn my mares and foes up into that pasture land anymore because it does spook them. I'm not saying spooks them order time, but it is Very noisy. Um I don't want it to be a commercial entity. Uh and if
the property is sold, then it needs to re revert back. I'd like to be I'd like it to see that it's gonna be assessed for that portion of that land. Whether it is green belt anymore. You know, because it's fifty-three acres but there is a portion that is not greenbelt. It doesn't conform to greenbelt if you're gonna not raise cattle on it. uh or cut hay. And so the whole property needs to be reevaluated for Greenbelt. So I'd like that review by planning.
Sir, just to be clear on that, this our planning department does not determine the Green Belt status approach. Okay, I understand. That's something the property appraiser does. Okay, all right. And so you would need to file that complaint with the
property
appraiser.
There's
nothing this body or our staff can do about the greenbelt status of property.
I appreciate that. Thank you. Um this meeting the reason we're here today is um Because the applicant um Mm-hmm. went ahead and did what they wanted to do. You know, they got this name of this individual that they spoke to that said you don't need to have a conditional use, yet nobody seemed to know this individual. Um I found their application letter Back in April twenty ninth.
Your time's up.
Sorry?
Your three minutes is up.
Well that's it then, I'm done. Huh.
I got the idea.
All right. Thank
you. Thank you.
Okay, who else would like to speak?
My name is Judy Geiger. I live at [address removed]. It is a property due south, it's adjacent to the uh property in question. Let me just clear up a couple of things that I've heard over the past few minutes. This property is not a half mile east on Johnston Road. It's west of Bellamy. If it was east it would be in the northeast Pasco Rural Protected Area. It is not. It is in the northeast or the It's
in the rural transition area. Uh the other thing I've brought I want to thank Denise, she's worked very hard on this piece of property and thank you all for For bearing with us on this. There are other are other skate ranges available. There's one not too far away, Tampa-based boarding clays. Uh there's one close to where the Vizzies live which is called Silver Dollar. I understand they applied for a ski range down there that was Olympic and they were turned down. The other question I brought up about the burns. Uh being
sixty five to one hundred and twenty thousand. They paid over five hundred thousand for this piece of property. And then they put another hundred and fifty. into the Skeet Range. They're already into it for six hundred and fifty thousand. So what's another A few thousand to Make it a little bit. make it hap uh happy for us. Okay, I got a little bit of presentation here. What I use this? I don't know how to use it just Nope, wrong one. Yeah. It's okay. I'll show it. Okay.
I don't want to be pushing all the buttons.
Okay. Good. Okay. This is this is what a skate range looks like, but you've seen the uh cop uh photo of the one that they've actually got on their property. These are my main concerns. Noise, the contamination of the ground and water. projectiles and litter escapement and property devaluation. The decibel levels on a jet aircraft is 150. Chainsaw and thunderclap 120. Garbage disposal 80. Quiet
rural area thirty. a shotgun, twelve or twenty gauge, I don't know what she's using. I think she's using twelve. It's a hundred and fifty six. That source came out of Temple University. In two the year two thousand. Contamination. That's a picture of a shotgun shell on the top. uh the problems are the lead lead shot, the watting and the plastics. Over the course of the conversations, uh Miss Vizia said she picks up the shells. But the lead stays in the ground. And
Skeet Ranges can contain up to one point five billion pellets per acre and that's the source, uh it's a hazardous waste expert and they posted it in Sports of Field magazine in 2014. the projectile and litter escapement. I personally have picked up pieces on my property. and to which I've been called a liar by a representative of the Vizzies. This is deadly to both cows and horses.
And I couldn't find any documentation, but I've talked to some local cattlemen. Uh And they they will not even cut hay on that property for the pieces of uh the targets of the projectiles. The last thing is the property values. These are quotes from Realtor.com, Remax, and a a website called Pocket Sense, a buyer will think twice about buying property next door. The lead shot and the dust concerns, the valuation is actually down
3.7%. And who wants to live next to gunfire noise? Okay, this is some of the things that I would like to see. But you talked about the number of people. Okay, it I would say put it down to two out there. If if you do elect to go forward with it. Which I hope you don't, because I don't want this thing next door to me. Um Take the people shooting not on the property to two, her coach and her. the hours of operation and I've talked to Ms.
Viz Mrs. Vizzy about this. and got nothing but Excuses. Uh if they could come out half a day. That way I know that I can walk my dog in the after my dog runs inside. Today is the first day she's been out there shooting again. My d I put my dog outside, he ran right back in. I'm a mass Florida Master Gardener. I can't be out working on the garden. I don't know when she's going to be there. So if we could limit the hours to half a day, then I know
I could be out in the afternoon or whatever. And then and I saw didn't see it um Earlier is no uh legal holidays. On condition number eight, uh, we need to add the length of the berm. We're talking about just the height, but we need to go length. which would transverse the length of the shooting facility on my side and on the north side. I'd like to see a condition added to exclude all firearms except a skeet shotgun. I'd
like to add a condition that they require a toilet facility on the property, which they do not have anything. Go back to the old country way of bushes, I guess. Except there's no bushes on this property.
Okay, this is uh some quotes out of the comprehensive plan for Pasco County. Uh implement and enforce this policy. This is the goal.
So I'm gonna give you the kind of the same lecture I gave the applicant, which is it's difficult for the Planning Commission to react to these kinds of just to X, Y, and Z. So if this gets continued, I it'd be preferable if you give and you can ask Mr. Navy for the word version of the conditions where you redline them and show exactly the changes that you're requesting. I don't know what the they're gonna do with it, but I'm exactly it's hard to react to these generalized statements about the conditions.
Okay. I d Didn't know how to do it. I'm not an attorney here. Okay,
but I will correct it if it does take a
look at the
or before the board meeting. But I'm just pointing out the same thing that this is more helpful if we have a red line.
Okay.
Thank you.
Okay. Um The goal of your comprehensive plan is to implement and force policies and programs to design. to preserve and reinforce the positive positive qualities of a rural lifestyle and protect rural communities and agricultural areas. This is in the rural transition area. Okay. Policy FLU two point one point seven B Methods of Protecting Rural Neighborhoods from the Sensory Intrusions. of adjacent non-residential
uses and she stated that this is her job, so that's not residential. uh that may affect the long-term viability of the neighborhoods. Sensory intrusions include unwanted light and noise. physical access odor and other sorts of disruption. Okay. The applicants have displayed a history of not following the rules. uh no building permit, no rezoning request prior to their actions. I if I had been in the same situation, out of respect for my neighbors, I
would have ceased. the shooting activity. gone and done the things right. and then come back in. But that doesn't happen with this family. Therefore as party decision process I encourage you to delay approval until the following are completed. the best m uh a BMP best management plan. The the Florida Department of Environmental Protection has a whole manual on how to do this. uh a com they need to complete the wildlife survey with the Florida Fish and Wildlife
Conservation Commission or with the U.S. Fish and Wildlife Service. Like to have them obtain all of the permits as they noted in condition four.
Okay, I ask you to deny this. This is not what belongs out in that area. Thank you very much. Can can I ask a question? Any questions?
Judy, um
Yeah.
The county attorney has said they c
shoot all day, seven days a week with this portable device. So if we approved it with conditions, aren't you better off than you would be that if we denied it?
I don't want it to happen at all. I want it gone.
that's not a reality 'cause the state law says that they have the right To do that.
They have a right to shoot, but I think you could be challenged because they she is out there literally up to six hours a day. Constant shooting. That's not hunting a deer or you know, sighting your gun. My my son owns property across the street. And he has hunters on the property. But it's not it's constant. You heard you heard her with the uh The AR rifle. Our steet round is 25. Shots. Or twenty five stations, I believe.
And that's two shots. It's constant. Yeah, I know what you're saying, Mr. Cox, but
I mean I'm just trying to
I know.
You know, weighs I got an attorney telling me that, you know, if they use these portable devices, th there's really nothing that can be done. And at least with this we could condition it to some hours an agricultural property I mean.
Uh there's also nuisance laws, uh Florida statute chapter sixty that I did not bring up.
So to be clear, you can bring a private nuisance action You private action.
But the legislatures preempted us, the government from regulating shooting. We're not preempted from regulating a gun range. But if somebody just goes out and shoots a gun The state your elected state legislatures Have decided that we cannot regulate that. As much as you would like us to, we cannot.
Okay.
Just like
we can't do anything about fireworks. So It's not a big deal in our easy.
I don't want it. And Yeah, I know there's legalities and stuff, but as a citizen I do not want this Sitting right it's right next to me. I don't even know if she's a twenty five feet off the property line that they're required to be.
But I guess what I'm pointing out to you is you have you have more rights than we do. You you can bring a private nuisance action and sue them all you want. and claim that all the things all the negative impacts that you have, but because the legislature didn't preempt your ability to do that. They preempted our ability to do that.
That's good to know.
Okay, thank you.
Anyone else?
Good afternoon, Mr. Chair and Members of the Planning Commission. For the record, my name is Philip Ryan Smith, [address removed]. Uh permission to give a copy of the presentation to the clerk. Recorded and recorded. Received
and
filed.
All in favor? Uh
Thank you. Uh f uh our family, extended family, and you'll be hearing from other members of it, manage 120 acres directly adjacent to uh the Visi property. Um as you've heard our primary concern is the noise generated from the range. Most of it is the duration. But I want to touch on the environmental conditions that Judy Geiger touched on. So to put that into numbers, typically in a in a round firing
250 rounds a day equates to about 15 pounds of lead on the ground. The accumulation over a year's time could be five thousand pounds a year. So just to put that put that into perspective. We're concerned about the long-term impacts. Again, we have a working farm. Lead shot is composed of of course lead. Antimonia does contain arsenic. Again, that's just for discussion, not the main reason that you'll hear the noise concerns.
So as we discussed at the on-site meeting with the VISI family and their council, there have certainly been quality of life impacts, and you've heard some of those from the noise and the duration of the range to measure and document some of this noise. We measured noise at various locations. On our property. Uh sampling probably uh 2600 feet from the range, there was a 30 decibel increase, and I think Ms. Geiger pointed some of this out again. Uh you may hear some of this information a couple
times. And remember that that decibel increase is approximately one half mile from the range. Um Mr. Vizi touched on an important fact that while shooting sports are common on agricultural lands, it's not the fact of the shooting, it's the duration. Typical recreational shooting on properties only lasts for an hour or two, and that's for you know just a couple of days a week or on the weekends. Typically
we're we're listening to three to five hours a day, up to seven days a week. Typically, recreational shooting ranges in west central Florida, every single range has at least one day they're closed. Shorter hours on a couple of days, and again done out of respect for adjacent landowners.
Um again considering that they're in violation of county code and they continue to shoot.
That's all I have. Thank you for your time. All right,
thank you very much. Any questions? I guess not. All right. Anybody now flick the speaker? Please come forward, don't Don't wait. Just come on up.
And Miss Ryan's going to have six minutes.
I won't use up six minutes, but if we have time I do have the video that I'd like to show. I also have mine written up for the uh court if you don't mind?
Second.
All in favor?
Aye. Aye.
Thank you.
Can you state your name and address please?
Yes sir. Good afternoon. My name is Robin RheinSmith. I
live
at [address removed]. We have three generations of family living on our farm, which we've called home for about fifty years. We pay many taxes over the years with Pasco County and haven't requested a single thing until today. The trade-off of rural living surpasses our need for community services and amenities. We love our property and we are proud gun gun owners as well. I would like to use my time to focus on four of
the eight standards that were contained in the conditional use application. I'd like to read the standards and then provide my commentary. Standard one was the proposed conditional use will not adversely affect or contribute to the deterioration of quality of life or property values in the immediate neighborhood. I speak for my family who is on the receiving end of the activity. She shoots north and we are the neighbors to the north. The intense sound that propagates from her high power rifles goes right through our
homes. Thirty decibel spikes in the off of a noise meter over a course of hours each day. The county play a I would like the county to play a video clip of a mere eight shots within forty-four seconds. So try to imagine what hours, not seconds, is like when you live in this location. Your home is your safe place. Your property is your your safe haven. Um yeah, go ahead.
So okay, this is a noise meter if y'all have ever seen 'em. Um I work for a state agency and and um have been a noise specialist for almost thirty years in the state. Um but this is a uh piece of uh equipment that somebody I know has and uh this basically shows that you're Background noise average for rural is around 40 decibels and the spikes go up between 20 to 28 decibels. You can see the spikes there as you go along. There's a bird singing, so of course that's in
there as well. That was pretty short, but anyway. Gives you an idea. It's um certainly different when you're right there.
Alright, so we live amongst nature, beautiful live oak trees and pastures. We spend less time outside, not because we're lazy. We have a 120-acre farm that we try to run, but the feeling of living in a battle zone overtakes with each shot that's fired. Using earplugs on the tractor doesn't even drown it out. My mom is ninety years old. She doesn't get to rest like she used to. We are adversely affected. Our blood pressure increases and anticipation sets in as we wait for the next round. We're edgy and we
we try to enjoy and have peace and quiet but we just don't know when we're going to get it. Um, was a competitive um equestrian for many years. She has sadly quit riding because she doesn't enjoy training on her own property. It's impossible to concentrate and perform a dressage test or a jumping pattern with shooting with a shooting range right next door. Communication with her coach is interrupted by the boom of gunfire.
Standard two. was the proposed conditional use is consistent with the character of and existing land use patterns in the surrounding area. I'm not sure how Skeet Skeet Range fits in. The duration and intensity of their activities is like no other around here. We have a shooting range and we use it maybe twice a year for about an hour and we call our neighbors before we use it. Um at $25 a box for 50 shells, the cost of ammunition is likely the limiting factor with most private gun ranges.
Standard five. The site upon which the conditional use is to be located has or will have screening and buffering sufficient to prevent interference with the enjoyment of surrounding properties. My parents' 40-acre hayfield is adjacent to the Visi property and is currently zoned one home per eight uh ten acres. So theoretically we could have four homes out there. which would be the highest and best use for the property. Being um in the direction of gunfire with no buffer and a lead drop zone basically at your property
line, would you be able to enjoy your family and pets without an impassable barrier? We can count cars and people at their range on any given day. And finally, standard eight. States the proposed conditional use will not otherwise adversely affect the health, safety, or welfare of the surrounding community or area. How can it be discounted that there is no buffer, lead is going onto the ground, and my family's activities are greatly limited on their adjacent forty acres with high powered rifles aiming
and firing in their direction? We can't put cattle or horses on the property for fear of them being injured or killed. We take the risk any time we walk out on our own land and we pay taxes here for nearly fifty years. Thank you.
Thank you.
Mapa.
If there's anybody else that's gonna speak, you can come and sit up in the front of you so when we can move this along.
Good afternoon. I'm Ann McKinley. I live at [address removed]. Thank you. Mm-hmm. The first thing I want to say to everyone, we are all avid gun owners. This is not against the guns or Uh the Second Amendment. We believe in having guns. We have guns. The Vsies bought this property Um they could have bought it anywhere in the county. Uh they could have bought it
next to any of you or one of your friends, whatever. But they b chose to buy in our area. And one of the issues is that they didn't take into consideration what the impact would be on our neighborhood. There is a sign right uh next next to their property or at least one property down that shows it's an Arabian horse farm, Glenn Stevenson's farm. Most everyone knows
that with horses, especially Arabians, that this is not conducive to them. It just isn't is something that just is not good. And Glenn does horse breeding there. He brings in horses from outside, and this is a very it's it's been catastrophic to his farm. But they didn't take that into consideration. They didn't try to ask. before they bought the property, if there was going to be a problem, they didn't
let anyone know.
uh people would have said, hey, this is gonna be a real problem for the neighborhood, but they didn't ask, they didn't care. And it has become a problem. Glenn's Glenn has lost business because of the noise. Um our granddaughter who tries to ride horses, has ridden competitively, can't do that. She can't have a coach come in and work with her because she never knows when the shooting's going to start. Um We have been on our property working in our hay
field and the VZs have come and charged the fence as if to try to scare us back, which makes us wonder if perhaps they feel that some of the ammunition may be going into our property. Even uh Larry Bartle was out mowing our pasture and they charged the fence when Larry. was out there. Uh they stayed there for the whole time he did the whole mile lap around the pasture. He couldn't figure out what was going on.
Um We you saw the the uh video of Dania's shooting. She was shooting towards our property, although she was shooting at a downward angle. you could v hear, we could actually hear a ricochet Uh the ammunition, as you may know, from an AR-15 can go over a thousand feet, sometimes depending on which which ammo you're using, over a mile. Um we have concerns about our safety. serious
concerns about our safety. because we don't understand why they charge the vents unless it's because they are they want us to leave because they're they are concerned that they could shoot us. Um we have worked that pasture, my husband's owned that land for over 50 years. What are our rights? Do we have the right to live on our own land?
Sorry.
Thank you.
Thank you very much.
Anyone else?
I don't see anyone. Uh would you like to come up and respond?
Uh yes, uh with our rebuttal real quickly, um I'd like to submit into the record our noise study that was conducted on June 9, 2019, just into the record, along with some evidence concerning the cost of uh of noise barriers? Move to receive and file.
Second.
Got a motion and a second. All in favor?
Aye.
And I understand from uh Ms. Hernandez that we only have eight seconds. Um I'd like uh to request an additional two minutes to have uh Ms. DeRay Vizzy speak real briefly if that pleases the commission.
All
right.
Hi, I'm Darae Vizzy. I live at [address removed].
We did purchase our property for our daughter to be able to train. I do not want to um cause problems with my neighbors. My daughter. That's not her goal. It's not our goal. It is just for her to train. I go with my daughter ninety percent of the time to the range every day and I pull for her and she only shoots three or four hours by herself. There is an overreach and an over exaggeration going on here right now. She
is a sweet girl. We would never charge anybody or do anything. And the AR video is the only time she's ever shot an AR on our property. And it was not at her property. It was it was the opposite way towards the ground. At a big pile of dirt. She is a very safe, she works, she is with the NRA, she goes around and promotes safety all the time about firearms. Our our goal is not to upset, our goal
is just to try to live with everybody the best way that we can. We want to shoot restricted hours, we want we want to help. She doesn't have a ton of people coming out and shooting with her. But our her tractor is as loud as her gun. And she's one girl who walks around to each station and shoots. And she takes a break. She has a a shotgun, a twelve gauge shotgun. by herself out there ninety five percent of the time. Just just think that, okay? The tractors, the
pumps, there's so many loud things that are out there that are louder than her shotgun. And I can prove it on the decimals. We've had the sound check done. And and I just don't understand why everybody is so being so nasty and we have been literally attacked by these neighbors. My daughter has been attacked. They have come at Custer out. They've done they have. They I have it on video, my family's seen it. And all we want to do is live in peace, honestly.
Thank you very much.
Thank you, Commissioner
to continuance to work on a red line if that's something that y'all want to consider. Thank you. Could I
ask you my question? Yeah. So I haven't seen it yet, but the estimate for the building of the berm can just for the record state where you got this estimate for the right-of-way.
Sure, I can
use the um elmo real quick if that pleases.
So what you're doing I mean, have you actually gotten an estimate on to do the work or is this just uh an assumption, swag?
This
is uh
So this is from the Noise Barrier Design Handbook published by the US Department of Transportation.
Just focus it.
Most of the research done on this issue is done by transportation agencies, um, as you can imagine by the result of of vehicle noise. So this is an average cost in twenty ten, which has actually a a a twelve foot or a twelve dollar per foot estimate for twenty foot berm, and this is by material, so you have concrete, block, wood, metal, berm, brick, combination, absorptive material, and then all materials. So
then in a footnote you see a a uh other material estimation. Um
So while we were Looking at this, uh, these are the types of resources that we're utilizing. And this is published by the uh the federal government.
But you a actually haven't gotten an estimate on bringing in I do not believe so no sir.
Facebook. Since this matter is likely to be continued, is that something that is important to your decision?
I
think it'd be I think it would be important to their decision whether
it's a little bit more than
Yeah, I mean
I
I'm I'm not apt to continue it but
Okay, well R B B okay. I shouldn't have said that. How'll this stop? Whatever you want to do.
So one other question, would you be opposed to adding a condition that only skeet shooting is is done there? With with
a shotgun. Um uh I I think I think Mr. Steinsteiner and I would have a disagreement on whether that condition is enforceable under the statute. Um I s I suppose the
I have I have enforceability concerns on that under the preemption. Um But uh that's something we can consider between
They agree to it in a condition, I think it's enforceable, but
I mean I I I've personally got a problem with some of the objections that you keep representing that you have when you go up here representing that all she wants to do is do the skeet shooting to prepare for the Olympics. Yet every single thing that we bring up, she she wants to bring friends with her. She can you can't all these limitations are not m what they're not enforceable. Well she doesn't even want to do those things. Why is it important? All she wants you came up here and said to yourself that she wants that range for preparation for to make the Olympic team.
I don't think AR AR fi AR fifteen shooting is part of the Olympic Games.
gonna shoot any skeet with it, that's for sure.
It's on
the three.
I think you're shooting yourself in the foot with uh some of the objections you're raising. Uh,
I I mean I personally I I have a problem with the continuance too, because they we've represented that they're continuing to shoot, irregardless of this even being on the agenda or a continuance. So I I mean it's in the best interest of the applicant to keep continuing as long as we want. I mean I think we need to be able to do that.
So to be so to be clear, yeah, I only recommended you continue if you were inclined to approve it with conditions because we don't have a Both the applicant and the opposition have problems with the ex conditions as worded. So if you were inclined to approve it with conditions, I would want both sides to give a red line that Denise can react to and say, I'm okay with this or I'm not okay with that. But if you're inclined to deny it, there would be no reason to continue. I just wanted to be clear about it. Yep, got it.
And the way I look at it is
I understand that the neighbors don't want it there, but they have other recourses to deal with that other than it being a conditional use. And it appears to me that With these conditions in place, they're better off than they are without them. So I'm inclined to up to recommend approval. Based on the recommendations, but I would like
to add a condition that um on the range they're only using skeet shooting weapons. Shotguns. Shotguns. Right. Mm-hmm.
No Okay, I think I think it's an enforceable condition if it's limited to use of the range that the range will be used for that purpose. The problem is is that I don't want the residents to think that they can't just go out there and start shooting AK forty sevens because if they're not using the range under state law they could do it. So I'm not even sure in this one instance that they occurred she was actually using the range. So I I don't I get your point, what you're trying to do, but I don't want
the residents to think that some that's somehow going to stop the use of a non skeet shooting weapon out there. 'Cause they have all this other land they could just it's not part of the range, they could just go ahead and do that.
I suspect that's why Denise didn't even attempt to regulate that. She did put a condition That says that if other other forms of firearms are used, she has some additional requirements there for tax shops.
In the event other forms of firearms are used on site, Um the They have to there's other requirements that have to be met. So I I don't think that Denise was trying to do a strict ban on other forms of firearms. She was just saying if there are other forms of firearms, there's additional precautions that need to take place.
Alright, that actually I think addresses the the concern.
As opposed to a outright ban on it. Right. Which is I'm not sure going to work anyway.
I'm gonna move for approval uh based on the staff recommendations. We have a motion to approve. Do we have a second?
You know you don't unless there's a time. Correct. And it doesn't matter. These are current 20 wish makeup there wouldn't be a time.
I I mean I'll I'll second that, but I mean again following up on what um Mike said. I I mean I I think that the conditions are important. Um I don't think I've heard any conditions that are part of what we're approving today that are detrimental to what you've represented that you want to use the range for. Um, I mean that the berm. I mean the berm does provide uh I mean it's a noise barrier. It it pr you know, it's there to stop lead from migrating off your
property to contain everything on your property. I mean th there's reasons for all the conditions that are there, which is you know, that's that's why I've seconded and then I'm for approval of this additional use.
Okay, any further discussion?
So to clarify the motion it's a motion for approval. With conditions. With the conditions as written by staff. Yes. But no deviations. Correct. Okay.
Okay. We have a motion and a second. Is there any further discussion? If not, let's have the vote. All in favor? Aye. Opposed? Motion carries.
Okay, it's going to the board county commissioner.
You vote
yay or nay.
Yeah,
okay.
So for those of you in the audience, this is a conditional use request that's going to go to the Board of Commissioners for a final decision.
Good app.