One forty-one chain link fence discussion

3:52:40Proposed land development code amendments that were bringing brought to the board for discussion about whether to proceed with them. So I'm looking at file one forty one LC. I think it's down at the it's the in it was only addendary.

3:52:58This is yours here.

3:53:01Storm

3:53:02my hand?

3:53:08It's the chain link fence. It's one forty one.

3:53:11It's the one you'd ask to put on. That's what

3:53:12you're doing with first?

3:53:14The one forty one or this

3:53:16No just do that for the way?

3:53:18You gonna do forty six first?

3:53:19I can do go either way.

3:53:23We've

3:53:23got one forty one. Okay, one forty one. So one one forty-one, um, you know, we made the motion not to have chain link fences. Um I was a little afraid what might happen, but I wanted to see how it was gonna play out. What happened was, uh for instance, Old Old Dixie Highway, they've got a series of fences that were there. They had one homeless camp, a guy put up a fence around it, protected his property. Across the street a boat marine place put chain link fences to protect this property as well.

3:53:53Both have served well. That's hideous. The person with the radio station unique gifts came in and actually put it so it didn't even affect US 19's view, but it it's right next to all this other chain link fence, which all doesn't look bad. And it's all protecting their property. So I think by making the step that we did to go just avoid uh avoid uh to make it illegal for chain link fences and gates visible from collecting our materials has caused a a big problem for that area. And maybe a few other areas. We have in front of our own fire

3:54:23station we're putting up. So I would like to see us repeal what we put back and just change it back to where it was before.

3:54:31Yeah, well I'm not gonna go I don't I don't agree with that.

3:54:34Those chain link fences you're talking about, some of those were in before we made that Oh yes,

3:54:40the ones that were there were there. It

3:54:41was

3:54:41just a new guy coming in, he's got chain link effectors all around him and now he can't go but what in. So protect his property.

3:54:47So how do you ever clean Clean up. If you leave the old ugly stuff. Allowed. I mean at some point that fence the old fences will get changed and get better. But you have to start somewhere. Um can you Put my photos up. It so there's there's some I just drove around Dade City here. Um I did that at lunchtime. So maybe we can do those ones first. Um and then I have so

3:55:18here's Date City. Um right down the street. I don't know if you can zoom in on that.

3:55:25Kind of protection. So that's the armory.

3:55:29Yeah.

3:55:31Um but let me show you what they did on the front. Okay, can you show the next picture? That's on the side road, which uh but that's what they did on the front. And it makes a big difference. Picture if that were Chain Link and Bob Wire. What what kind of community do you build when you wrap your businesses with chain link and bob wire? So I think there's there's more there. Um I'm I'm all for people wanting to have secure property. Um And we have

3:56:01said you can put chain link on the other parts. It's just you can't put it across your front. Um here now that's what that looks like. I mean that's that is not attractive. And if I were Dade City I wouldn't be allowing that.

3:56:14Well let me ask

3:56:15a question. And and here and here as well. But but keep going there's you'll see where there where other what the difference is when you put the decorative metal fence. Let

3:56:29me ask this question. One question.

3:56:31Uh-huh.

3:56:32So the gentleman that put the fence up, did he get a permit to put the fence in? He went to a fence company that told me didn't need a permit and they put the fence up. So did we need a a permit or did we not need a permit?

3:56:46You don't require we don't require fence permits.

3:56:49We so I went back and listened. Yeah.

3:56:51Yeah.

3:56:52So if you want if you want to play it, you can pull up the YouTube from December sixth of twenty twenty-two and go to minute. It goes from thirty-five to forty something. And this is why I was looking for Roy um before and I asked um Brad Um because we had this problem, we knew this was gonna happen. Like what's the procedure for commercial fencing permit?

3:57:15We did raise this issue.

3:57:16Yes. If we have no fence permit, how are people gonna No that so what Sally said was that she was gonna start an education process as they worked towards a procedure for the fences. Now I had my staff call a number of fence companies to see if anyone reached out to them. 'Cause there's like seven or eight in the county. Were you informed of the change? Because you should reach out to the the stakeholders,

3:57:47right? Because they would know. I mean they they should know what our rules are and they were only t able to get rid of get a hold of one because of the storm. Ever all the other ones went to answer machine. So we're gonna s go get on that tomorrow. Um but I w I'm curious, does anyone know what the county did to alert the companies that, hey, 'Cause we did that to the sign to the sign manufacturers when we changed it. Did anyone

3:58:17let the sign the fence companies know that they can no longer put a chain link across the f off the front?

3:58:28So I'm unaware of any educational campaign that was that was put forward on it. Um we could certainly do that.

3:58:36Well that's what she said she was gonna do on December sixth, twenty twenty two. And 'cause we knew this was gonna happen. And it's unfortunate and I said we don't want this to happen. Because people pay money for these. And then they get in trouble and so there has to be a procedure. Um I don't want the front of our roads lined with chain link and bar fire. But I get the security. So our compromise and the sheriff is fine with these. And as a matter of fact, these are more secure

3:59:06than a chain link because I can tell you I've hopped over many a chain link in my life. Um So I I'm I would not be okay with taking them out the ability no I don't want businesses lining lining up with chain link of Bob Wire in the front.

3:59:34Well that's another another main link. Old Dixie's a main road too, right?

3:59:39So they border two main roads. But all along it you've got chain link fences and they don't look bad. And but they're safe too. They they they're high enough where the homeless don't jump over 'em.

3:59:48I I looked at their pictures and you know that's just I've got

3:59:51I've got the matter of fact, can you can you

3:59:52show the pictures I

3:59:53got?

3:59:54It's not the look we want.

3:59:57She'll show you the pictures I took when I went there. So let me go take a look at this. And literally there's fence everywhere. So I don't know what the visibility you're gonna put.

4:00:05Well I you can drive up fifty two and fifty two and nineteen and and up in that area and it needs a it needs a cleanup.

4:00:12Well what about the fire station?

4:00:14I don't think we should be putting it in. If we if we're putting it in you got we gotta put the decorative metal fence in. Don't be junking up. The

4:00:20fire the fire station is being secured because it's it's uneven. It's under construction. I know.

4:00:28It looks awesome.

4:00:29Right?

4:00:30Are you talking about the fire station on Rowan?

4:00:33On fifty two, we're building a fire station.

4:00:35Yeah, they put that up temporarily.

4:00:37Yeah, that's construction.

4:00:38We would never put a chain link bob wire fence around a fire station or library or uh anything.

4:00:44So anyway, so if you if you look at the the property that's there, this is that the property Dollar General's on nineteen on the bottom screen. Above that there's Anthony Marine. They get renegrates on both sides of the street. Chainlink everything around it. Uh to the south of property where Ashley Internet is right there, and then to the north. That was a homeless camp. that as the lady said some person either died there or on her property and then right beside them. So They're blending into their picture. Uh what's all around it?

4:01:14Is that a good thing or a bad thing?

4:01:16Well that's the right-of-way. Well it's again they want to protect the homeless people from going in there.

4:01:20Well no I get that, but but Um

4:01:25the other type of fence is allowed and and protects them just as well. I just you know, how you gonna open a door for one one person and not bring down all the rest of what we're trying to do. 'Cause I'll I have other pictures. Can you put my pictures up? Um I mean I'm I'm trying to clean up my area 19 and 54 and

4:01:52No, that's the Cogan grass.

4:01:57It's in the list that Katie sent. I think there's multiple on a page. Uh I I don't know how she sent it to you.

4:02:07Keep going down, down, down, down, down, down, down. There's the decorative fences. Um

4:02:15And here's there there you see the business they're putting it in and up here

4:02:24And then and then you have the cha this this stuff up here on in the upper right. I mean

4:02:34And the the Bob wire. I just y if you drive around other communities and remember we're a we're a county that really has to think like a city a lot. It's just not done. And we just need to grow up a little bit and So I'm all for it on the sides and the back, if it's not They're in a rare situation maybe where they're Got two. Main roads. Yeah. No, I'm not well surrounding isn't the issue because

4:03:05one day businesses change and they come in for changing and that and then they'll have to clean up like we're doing with the sign code. Um But we have to start somewhere.

4:03:24But we needed to ha we need to do our education piece and it doesn't take long to call eight companies and Just send them a little handout that says, Hey, can't our ordinance has changed, here's a copy. We can we can email it to you. Don't don't put any fences on these roads, these type of roads. And I I don't think that was done.

4:03:50Did you know of anything, Denise?

4:03:55You were you asked her to do it too.

4:03:58I I can tell you it was not it was not done. So it wasn't it was not done. I mean we did our regular um uh interested parties meeting and we do state what's gonna be changed in the code so that I would imagine fence companies are part of the interested parties and contractors round table and all that. So I I don't know if anyone who is a fence contractor attended those but um no we didn't specifically do outreach to fence companies.

4:04:30Uh i I almost feel like we should get them to sign a paper. that they've been notified. Like said it is that is that okay, uh, Jack? Can you s can you notify a company? So that way they

4:04:42Well you could I mean you can send send a notification return receipt requested registered mail and I mean I'm not sure what you're then you at least know that they've received it and we can but If they're in the business, they're supposed to know what codes and ordinances there are If they're not required to get fence companies should know that they're not required to get

4:05:12permits, but that doesn't exempt them from the land development code.

4:05:16No, no. And I'm not what I want to do is protect the customer.

4:05:21No, and uh say I don't know that you can you can force them to to sign a receipt, but you can force them through the US Postal Service to sign that they received our mail and that's what it is.

4:05:35So most fence companies do all types of fences. And so if if 'cause I had this with a sign an instance with a where a guy was remodeling a business and he went and got spent the money on new signs and the sign company I believe knew that we were changing our sign ordinance. And i I think And I'm I'm not gonna say who it was. But I'm speculating that he thought he was gonna get two signs out of it instead of

4:06:04one. Be

4:06:05and um and so we actually managed it so that he didn't have to. But that sign company does a lot of work in the county and he knew we were chang that that that it changed and it and so Um If uh a lay if someone gets a fence pays for a fence and that company knew that I couldn't pay f have that fence and then now I have to get another fence, I would make that company pay for, you know, not check. I would take some

4:06:35kind of recourse to say, Hey, you knew I wasn't supposed to have that kind of fence and so I shouldn't be paying for it. or take that out of the right fence that the code requires and don't charge me twice. That's that's why I wanna make sure that If there's a way we can notify the sign Companies. I mean the fence companies.

4:06:58You can always ask them to voluntarily sign something. But that would require sending somebody from code act out the

4:07:06Well there's only eight or eight or nine that we found anyway.

4:07:13Well they got 'em in all the other counties too, and they cut through fences. I mean, well and

4:07:17and other counties they require a fence permit. So if uh The Hernando, they all have fence permits. We're the one that doesn't have a fence permit.

4:07:25I understand, but you got a lot of fence companies that are neighboring counties right next to

4:07:29us. What do you think of putting in a process which Sally said she was supposed to be researching of a of requiring A fence permit or putting something in there that says what can we do to so that a fence company has to go look up something to put in a fence for commercial.

4:07:47I mean you would have to I would I mean I would guess you would the only way to compel them would be to regulate it like what you're suggesting with the permit. I mean I think that protects the the

4:07:55whole

4:07:56thing.

4:08:00draw a permit, it's okay I can put it in.

4:08:02Yeah.

4:08:03Well he knows anything different, I mean, and they're gonna come later until they He's thrown his money away and he's gotta take the percent?

4:08:10I think we

4:08:10need to

4:08:10put it in the

4:08:11problem with that, so

4:08:15I mean that's I I just I'm I'm thinking through the machinations of of what that would mean to regulate that on on our part.

4:08:24And do you know how many times like okay, l let me say that the I had a private conversation and they were able to fix it so I didn't pull it off the consent agenda, but that crockett towing He put his fence in the wrong place. So technically we should be making him move his fence. He put it in the wrong place.

4:08:47Interesting with this property, with this project? The offense company actually put it on Antonetti's property. When I was reading the agenda part, I saw that. They were like citing Antonetti as well. I go, What hap what did you do? He goes, I didn't do anything. Says they put the fence seven inches or ten inches on my property.

4:09:01But no, he didn't leave any room very little room for landscaping and that fence is supposed to be buffered here.

4:09:06Well e even

4:09:06still I'm

4:09:07just saying they with no permit needed, they just went out and stalled it.

4:09:10Yeah. So I really think we need to do a little bit get like our neighbors and

4:09:16All right, so let's let's bring this back up for a discussion about what we're gonna do because c clearly what we're doing is not working. We need to do something different because I feel bad for these people. However, It's it's gonna sell.

4:09:26So that's something

4:09:27that's a little bit more than that.

4:09:28Yeah, we can we can bring back um you know some kind of draft permitting process or something of what that what that might look like. I mean it could be you know an over the counter kinda You know, kind of quick thing that would you know provide at least the top cover and educate the owner and or the contractor as to what is and isn't isn't allowable. I mean there may be other discussions on whether or not the the type of fence that you guys want to see if that's still

4:09:54We went through that. We said it and the attorney lays it out

4:09:57beautifully.

4:09:58Sorry,

4:09:58I stepped out for a moment, so I

4:10:00So the attorney just go back and listen to December. 6th, 2022. And that's our second conversation on it. and it passed five O, uh, but he lays out how you describe and and the Planning Commission had an issue with not allowing aluminum Um, they said why say the metal Make it Um You I can't remember the way you described the the bon uh Welded wire. Welded

4:10:30wire and I there's a couple of terms that he called out, but he said is prohibited from the on these roads. Now yesterday in a meeting with staff, I think it was yesterday, might have been the day before, I found that apparently we put fences in like six different places in our code. And in one place some of our staff is interpreting it that, well, okay, if you put a hedge in front of the fence, it's not Visible. No, that isn't what we didn't say We didn't

4:11:01say visible, we said not allowed on to on a frontage. Because we know what happens to our edges in the county. And the minute it becomes visible I'm gonna call code enforcement on it. And then they're gonna have to put another kind of fence in. Because you cannot keep a hedge. No one keeps a hedge here. Uh permanent. So

4:11:25We I think the only true thing you can do is is make it where you regulate it to where they have to have a permit.

4:11:31Yeah, agreed.

4:11:32And then you don't have a guy falling in this trap that he said, Well, you don't need permit, so it's okay. Well nobody's gonna tell them any different until the fence is up and then code rides by and says you can't do it. So

4:11:43let's bring it up.

4:11:44It doesn't have to be expensive.

4:11:45So let's bring it with

4:11:47I think a stakeholder meeting is good. So bring all the stakeholders in with staff first and let them discuss it through.

4:11:54Yeah, we'll do that. Okay. All right, let's move to uh R forty six.

4:12:03Can I go back to one one forty one because you know, we're we're gonna come back with a process and there's some there's some things that that the board would like. I mean I I we're we're about to incur fines on the particular issue that was brought up here, I I didn't know if There was any direction from the board on on

4:12:23you know, what you want me to have code do with What we currently have out there or if that's even a good idea or what we've got to do. Do we have just the ones?

4:12:32We have just the one.

4:12:35That we know about I guess. I mean maybe one or two that that may be out there. I mean I mean you could just

4:12:41I wouldn't f I wouldn't find 'em until we and then we put this on a permit and regulate it, but It's hard to find 'em when you they don't know. I mean they really don't know.

4:12:54The problem is that you've already issued a citation.

4:12:58So I can't in good conscience, it's a valid citation issued under the Current land development code.

4:13:11I the will of the board is that it's it's a violation.

4:13:17So do we charge him a fine for that and And then stops the the

4:13:25Well

4:13:25do

4:13:25you want it brought into to compliance or not?

4:13:28Correct.

4:13:29This is really stinky.

4:13:32Well, we're we're enforcing the current code as but Yeah, this is what Prompted this. And so I just I wanted to bring it up just to have some clarity.

4:13:40If you find 'em and you tear

4:13:43make 'em take it

4:13:43out.

4:13:44Yes.

4:13:44The guy's out however much money it is, and it's probably not cheap what he

4:13:48Well e except as the Commissioner has already said If I got a citation and I got a $500 fine, I'd be going back to my fence company going, What are you doing to me?

4:14:00Yeah.

4:14:01But there there's examples I have realized. There's an active code case right now. It's an existing fence. A company bought a company and the company sold same company name. It's a six-foot chain link fence, barbed wire. It's been a wild. industrial business on a major highway and our county code enforcement is giving them a a run and they're saying no you need to swap out your fence. put up vinyl. I mean it's ten acres

4:14:31of vinyl. They're looking at six feet.

4:14:33No, no, just across the front.

4:14:34They're the the they bought a pre existing business. Is this on

4:14:38forty one?

4:14:38Mm-hmm. They just approached

4:14:39the case.

4:14:39Because there's a budget by license on forty. And they're trying to worry about making payroll, get to business up a road and capital and we're over here as a county I look at it as almost borderline harassment. I mean that's not the best most big business friendly their experience with Pasco County so far and the code enforcement has not been pleasant.

4:14:59Did they say they had to do the whole property? Or no, it's just the front.

4:15:03They have we have all the documentation. We've been working with them. That's why I talked stepped outside and talked to the administrator about what we do here. This is an existing business, an existing property that the fence has got

4:15:17with

4:15:17the property.

4:15:20Well if it's all time. If it's an existing property the and the fence predates our ordinance. It's nonconforming.

4:15:31it doesn't meet the old regulations.

4:15:33Correct. And I don't know the details of it. We can certainly dive into it.

4:15:40bother me.

4:15:44Co should be helping people get into compliance and not putting a owner's burdensome additional expense on our businesses in this county. I think the co code needs to be here to help get into compliance and not be punitive monetarily unless it's absolutely egregious. That's just my general opinion on it. And this is

4:16:05Have they been fine?

4:16:06They're yeah, they're theirs currently going on the issue.

4:16:11But you're s but but I'm very curious if they're telling him he has to put something other than chain link, which is it fine. There's other things

4:16:21which is

4:16:22all well that could be The vinyl is required they are allowed to put Sometimes they require vinyl if it's a buffer and there isn't room to put the landscape buffer between So we may be talking about two different you know what

4:16:40I'm talking about? The vinyl doesn't protect the business and it won't protect people trying to get into the business. The vinyl is a hazard for this particular business in my opinion.

4:16:49Well, I th but the I'm just saying that may not be related to the what we're talking about. It could be that they didn't put in the if it's in dust you're saying it's industrial? If it's got some other uh zoning next to it where it requires a buffer Sometimes they can do it all standard. Brad, I'm talking to your Talking your speak here. an alt standard and put in a vinyl fence and then they're allowed to be Legal, right? Am I saying that right? Because our c our code just says across

4:17:19the front can't be chain link and bobbar.

4:17:21Yeah, we have certain uh Brad Tippin playing at the moment, we have certain uh uh buffer types that require a six foot s opaque screening. Uh and that can be achieved through berms, uh fences that are opaque, like a vinyl fence, uh or a uh masonry wall, uh or hedge or any combination of those things that basically screen it.

4:17:43What about a chain link with a covering over it? Yeah.

4:17:46So that was historically allowed until the recent change that's on the front, correct. So uh there are different combinations of things they can do in in those areas on the sides where they're budding other districts that that there may be a buffering issue um across the front and some landscaping uh requirement for a landscape buffer and and the change. Hate Lake Fence ordinance piece that's causing the issue in the farm.

4:18:15Uh that's our general rule. I don't know how that applies to a specific site if that's the

4:18:21So y'all gonna bring this back to us?

4:18:25Yes, we will. And that what we're what we intend to bring back is just kind of a a a permitting process that the board would agree upon for us to implement. So what I hear is basically we we maintain course and speed. The the ordinance is still the ordinance. The the permitting process will in and of itself handle education, allowable uh allowable things. So we will we will continue to press with with our enforcement and compliance issues that that we have out there. Um Well if I

4:18:51c if I could make a recommendation about that, at this point where there's only like like two cases going on right now, I think code's got plenty of th other things to do to focus on, so maybe just like shift gears on that.

4:19:04I mean how do you how do you I mean you're trying to resolve it. But don't let the hair twist. But

4:19:09you're essentially telling me to suspend one of suspend enforcement of an ordinance.

4:19:18With these two w if it's across the front.

4:19:25I'm pretty sure we've communicated that. But in the particular instance for Mr. Weightman, I'll I'll have to I'll have to investigate that one. I'm pretty confident the other one has been.

4:19:36Yeah. Okay. And the other one's gonna go back to the vendor to say we shouldn't have put it in, file his code. So

4:19:44And can we in the meantime while you're working on that, can someone eas um get a copy of our language uh in layman's term and get it to those fence companies so we could try and I'm sure

4:19:58we could put a letter out pretty quickly.

4:20:00Yeah. There's like s I think they said there's like eight.

4:20:06Yeah.

4:20:06Okay.

4:20:07Okay.