PC three Lutz Church of God special exception
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The county’s agenda for Planning Commission, Aug 24, 2023
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The county’s minutes for Planning Commission, Aug 24, 2023
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What was said
Machine transcription of 31m of recording, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 95% of 189 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.
Mr. Chair, do you want to take up PC three now?
Yes, ma'am.
Okay.
Well the PowerPoint is um being is being pr brought up. PC three is PD D twenty three seven seven one seven in the name of Lutz Church of God is for a special exception for a church in an R1 rural density residential district.
The parcel of land is located on in south central Pasco County on the west side of School Road at the north northernmost intersection of Land O' Lakes Boulevard and School Road. The applicant is looking to develop the property with a church. It's in the R O R portion of the property is retail office residential. And uh the greater part of the property is Res 3, residential three dwelling units per gross acre.
So the property is located in the central market area, it's not within the urban service area or the rural area.
This is like a showing you the surrounding area of the property. To the north of the property is Edmondson Electric. To the east of the property is School Road. To the south of the property is vacant with some wetland with wetlands. To the west of the property is Lake Thomas and the some of the areas that you see surrounding it are you'll see the heritage. Um Park. Of Land O' Lakes, and this is a county-owned piece
of property that some folks use as overflow parking for the park. And this is Edmondson Electric and Land O' Lakes Boulevard. and school road on the east.
And as stated, it's uh Lake Thomas to the west. So this is Lake Thomas here, or Thomas Lake.
Showing you the future land use, which is Res 3, a portion of the property along the front. Over in this area is R O R Retail Office Residential. Surrounding zoning is C2 to the north. The subject site is zoned R1 and R1 to the south, and some C2 to the east.
It's eight and a half acres. The applicant is looking to develop the property with a church, and as stated, the surrounding property is commercial, some residential uses in the Land O' Lakes Heritage Park.
And the recommendation is approval with conditions as included in your agenda packet. I know there's some folks here who would like to speak to the matter and there was an email of objection sent to the Planning Commission members yesterday and it was also sent to the clerk's office. All right. And here we're here for any questions, and the applicant's representative is here as well.
Okay. So are the applicants and representatives here? Okay. Do you have the you want to say say anything and make a presentation? I don't think you requested extra time, did you, Shelley?
No, no. We just um we were were aware we we were gonna get pulled until last night. So Shelley Johnson, 6400 Madison Street, I have been sworn. Um I'm here to answer any questions. I did read some of the questions that came in through the email from the resident, and I I think they're easily answered, but I'm here to answer any questions.
Okay. We'll just withhold then. All right. Uh is there anyone here in the uh audience that would like to ask questions?
Mr. Chair, we do. We have uh Jim Stevens signed up, Wayne Hicks signed up, and Danny Ash as well.
Okay. If you want to come up in that order, that would be fine.
Hi, my name is Jim Stevens. I live at [address removed]. I uh sent you the summary for nonconformity. I guess you all have that. I brought copies of it. Okay, if you would like them. I'd like to submit them.
Okay. Uh you have to give it to the clerk. Do we have to receive and file?
Second.
So motion received and file and second. All in favor? Aye.
We've already received it.
I'll make copies of the second. See that again.
What a quick one.
Okay, today I'm just here to talk about the impact. that this uh church will have on the residents. There's only a handful of us that live here along School Road. I've been here for thirty-two years.
By itself probably wouldn't affect much. We already have a church with a full school all the way up to high school. Yeah. impacts the road traffic. the noise in the morning. We have Sanders Elementary across the street, which is extraordinarily loud. The traffic backs up all the way down school road, all the way out to Forty one in the mornings. So the traffic impact is gonna be extreme. And I understand that a church Typically only affects on the
weekends. Well the Heritage Park has events almost every weekend. Sunday mornings in particular I nine football comes out there and plays starting at seven o'clock in the morning with blaring music. Cars parked everywhere. I think it's a little bit much to be asking The neighbors. to constantly put up with this. It's not once or twice like when I first moved out here. They had the flapjack festival. It was four days out of the year. Other than that, that park was pretty
quiet. That's easy to put up with, but when it's every single weekend Every night of the week we have cheerleading practices over there now. The noise And traffic has just gotten out of control. So it's not specifically to speak against This church But the impact this church is having along with everything else. When you look at the amount of money that this church spent, eight hundred and forty seven thousand dollars on two point nine usable acres. Why are they doing that? This
morning I spent a matter of ten minutes looking up three properties within three miles that are by far more appropriate. They're in residential areas.
But not with the impact. that this um would have on the school on school road. That's already there. And are by far cheaper. One is fifty thousand dollars per acre. It's been for sale for quite some time. I'm sure it can be bought for a lot less than what this one was. Beyond that, this property not only affects School Road, it affects all of Lake Thomas. Lake Thomas is already an impaired lake by the state guidelines. They have no. uh
intention or they aren't showing any at this time for any kind of Drainage plans. They have the plans for the buildings are shown on wetlands. So they're gonna negatively affect the lake. and at this point there's nothing to stop them from using it as a public access into that lake, which in the past history we have shut down multiple times. Trying to keep that lake as a a private Lake. So they're going to affect the ecology. of the lake and the lake itself
and everyone around that hundred and sixty five acre uh lakes uh well being a little bit more than a little bit. Okay.
Thank you. How will the church be affecting the ecology of the lake?
So according to their plans now they're not going to be able to do that. They have no uh drainage ponds. They're building on top of wetlands. There's only two point nine acres that are shown as non-wetlands. And that two point nine acres that they're showing, I've been on that property. when it's ankle deep in water. It holds water all the time. Same thing with Edmondson that's north of that. That property should never have been built on. It was seven foot below forty one. They claimed that there was no um uh Phil
put in. It's kinda hard to do when it's level with forty one now and it was seven foot below before that. Again, I've been there for a very long time.
What the net improvement standard is?
No sir, I do not.
I want to try to assuage your fears of them affecting the pollution levels in the lake. The lake is currently impaired for nitrogen, phosphorus, and chlorophyll A. That's usually the result of people using fertilizers and things on their yard. When this church goes to develop, it's going to be required to get a stormwater permit from the Southwest Florida Water Management District. Yes, sir. And as part of the design for their stormwater
permit. they're going to be required to demonstrate that they're going to discharge less nutrients to the lake in the post development condition. Than in the pre-development condition. In other words, they're going to be required to do something to improve the water quality of the lake. Whereas if this were developed with a single family home They would not be required to get a permit and they would actually degrade the lake.
I fully understand that that they will have to meet more than what's being shown today. Today's just a preliminary hearing. Fully understand that. Just like Edmondson Electric, when they developed that, they were supposed to take all of their deliveries off of Highway 41. Today, zero of their deliveries come off of Highway Forty One. They all come off of school roads. So what's to stop them
from doing
this?
And the church hasn't done anything to pollute the lake because they're not there today.
Are they
gonna
have access
to the lake? Oh They are not allowed to under our code impact category one wetlands They can have some sort of path through those wetlands to access the lake, but I don't foresee them having a public access to the lake. That would be way beyond the scope of an application to construct a church.
Well a church has a public showing up to there, so what's to stop them from having some sort of event? And them all accessing the lake.
Well then wouldn't they be applying for a permit for some type of marina or something like that?
I mean I'm con what what concern do you have with accessing the lake? It's
not just
a
lot of things.
I assume that people that live along the lake have docks along the lake. That they do. Okay. So Why shouldn't the church be allowed to have an access to the lake? And I'm sure that the homeowners don't allow the public to use their docks to access the lake, and this is going to be private property. I can't imagine a church would do that.
Is it your concern that the the people that are going to church the prisoners because it's a larger group of people than what would be in a single family home. accessing the lake through a church function or something like that.
Correct. It's just like uh I I know it's a Baptist church right down by Avala in Hillsborough County. They have events there all the time. boats, people, all types of things accessing that lake. That's what this lake and all the people that I've been able to contact around this lake, not one person is in favor of this development, not one.
They'd have to construct a path through those wetlands. There
is a path there. But they can't
build a roadway.
Right. No, no, no, so there's no roadway, but there is a pathway down there that it's dry. And I would tell you to the
challenges if they wanted to try to construct a boat ramp or anything like that. Right. Right. They
have a path that they can lock the boats on right now. It's already done.
Okay. Any other questions?
Johnny, Phone? No other questions. Hey Derek. Yep, I'm good. Okay. All right, thank you very much. Thank you.
All right. Who was next on that list?
Wayne Hicks.
Good afternoon, Chairman Mariano. Um I'm basically here as a resident of Lake Thomas. I'm sorry.
My address is [address removed]. That's in Land O' Lakes I live on the north side of the lake.
support James Stevens' concerns as all the other homeowners have expressed to me. Um My family bought their property in nineteen forty seven, so we've been there a really long time. Uh we've watched the quality of the lake degrade just simply by building.
I share the same concerns. If the church builds there, I feel like it's gonna uh uh uh negatively affect the ecology of the lake. Um i if things are placed but like you said earlier, Mr uh Chairman M Yeah. they would prevent that from happening, that's all well and good. But if they get a Mutual boat ramp, there's nothing to stop a hundred and forty, and this is just a guesstimate, parishioners
from launching boats into the lake. Um we don't want a safety problem on the lake. We don't want any more pollutants. It's been a private lake since. I know since nineteen forty seven. Uh I I can't voice my opinion any farther past that, but Um I distributed uh
over eighty people and nineteen of 'em I've personally talked to and not one person's in support of this that lives around the lake. We all have the same concerns. So That's about all I've got. Um Jimmy covered just about everything else. Uh he distributed some information that I also brought, but uh There's no sense in redistributing that so
All right, are any questions from up here?
I have one question. If you don't want the church This piece of property's gonna be sold at some point in time.
What would you object? What would you not object to that development?
Oh f right now
i it's probably over sixty percent wetlands. So they're gonna have to cut down multiple, multiple, multiple cypress trees, which I understand's against the law. I mean I I've got cypress trees in my property and I was told I can't touch 'em. So Why can somebody else come in and build a twelve thousand five hundred square foot church? This is obviously gonna have to remove cypress trees to do. or access that lake.
His question is what use would you Would you support on that property?
Remaining a residential. One person's not gonna affect That much. But the potential of a hundred people. you know, accessing the lake that that could. Plus all that construction fill. It's the water's gotta go somewhere. You know, right now I'm already suffering from the the housing that has been built around me. My lake property never flooded and the entire time I was growing up there and lived
there, it's never flooded now. I can walk in ankle deep water. And I can only Attribute that to the runoff is it's got nowhere to go anymore, you know, just because of building. But
And none of the single family homes Were held are held to the same standard that the church will be to construct. In other words, in the times when these single family homes were built, you could go in and you could fill in a floodplain and there was no requirement to mitigate for the volume lost in the floodplain. that's a requirement that'll be imposed upon the church. At the time these homes were built there was no requirement for them to provide a
stormwater management system. So you have Runoff, generally it's the fertilizer from your own yards, running off into the lake. The church will be required to meet all the current standards which actually require a net improvement in water quality, not a degradation. It seems like The objections I hear were Seem to accuse make the accusation that the church is going to do something to pollute the lake. The church isn't here. They've done nothing to pollute the lake. The lake's
already polluted and they're going to be required to make an improvement. And if they encroach into the floodplain, they're going to be required to mitigate for that encroachment into the floodplain. That's something none of the other property owners around the lake have had to do.
Okay. Same thing goes with cypress trees. Could I ask a question?
So sir, just to clarify your objection as far as them accessing the lake. Are you talking about boat access to the lake or If they built a path where the Observation deck where they could just look out at the lake, are you objecting to that too?
I have no objection to that.
So your objection is to motor Motorized access to the lake.
That could B threefold. I've seen it in Hillsburg County.
Where where is there a a ramp? t uh that access is the lake currently for anybody that lives there or where they want to put their boat in where where can they do that?
There there is no public are you asking for this specific piece of
the private ramp anywhere on the lake?
No. Well there's many private ramps. Okay.
I think you're asking. Yeah. So but there's no public ramps, correct?
No.
No, sir. Okay. Yeah, so for this church to construct a uh a public ramp, uh I don't think it would be feasible. Um uh even if they were to construct this path somehow through a wetland and somehow construct a dock, it'd be very difficult for them to launch additional Powered watercraft. into the lake without having the ability to access it through a their own ramp. True.
Yeah, well just to be clear, certainly w wouldn't be able to haul a trailer back there with
a boat on it and park it back there somewhere. Well and then the amount of clearing and filling that they would need to do in a wetland in order to accomplish that would require a substantial mitigation cost.
Well it's all category one wetland, so they couldn't impact them in the theoretical in the first place.
Right.
Right for observation purposes, but it doesn't sound like they have an objection to that use. So I mean the this is a special exception. The Planning Commission could impose the condition that there not be motorized boat access But That's up to the Planning Commissioner.
Most likely they couldn't do it anyway.
Which I I'm guessing the applicant would say they probably wouldn't object to that condition because they probably couldn't do it anyway. But we can ask the applicant that question. Yeah.
questioner from the audience a little before the applicant comes back up. Anything else you'd like to add? I have
nothing further.
Thank you for coming. Thank you. Appreciate it.
Yes, Danny Ash.
Danny, if you just give us your name and phone and name, not phone number, address please.
My name is Danny Ash. Phone number eight one three-four eight six one three zero zero. Just
your address.
Oh my address is [address removed]. I live next door to Mr. Stevens. Okay.
I want to point out that uh Electric company on the north side of that property is not on School Road. That's a Land O' Lakes Boulevard address, zone commercial. Mm-hmm. Um
You can see their red line goes out into the lake and I I think Our perspective on that is that Where I live I have a neighbor on the north side that there's two people living in that residence. They use the lake. My neighbor to the south side, there's two people living in that residence. They use the lake. Two people living in my les my residence, I use a lake. You're asking us four properties down. To have a neighbor with a congregation of Do you know how many?
I don't know how many. Three, four hundred people? A little bit of a difference. I don't think the electrical company's gonna care. But the residential people that live on School Road. Mm-hmm. I think if you address the use of the lake with the congregation, that would make a difference. They weren't gonna have baptismal service down here. I don't think we'd be opposed to that. It's confinement to the beach. But if it if it turns into uh the Baptist assembly grounds? Like they have there in North Tampa. I've been going
here all my life. They have pavilions and boats and boat ramps and you know, public swimming basically. We don't have any public access to Lake Thomas at this time. No, we'd like to keep it that way. And if you have a congregation of hundreds of people Uh it looks a lot like public access. So that's a concern. Um Mr. Stevens pointed out to me that you they do launch boats there. I've been living out there forty plus years. And uh I've seen a number of people uh that either
were renting or live in that house, that have used the property just like we do, just like the rest of us do. We don't have any concerns about that. You ask what would future use for that property be? Residential. Build a mansion on it. It's eight acres here. But uh you're still gonna have a family, two, three people and not. A congregation of hundreds of people. So I guess that's our point. I think that's my basic concerns. Is use of a lake. With traffic up and down forty one. Uh
it is extreme, but the park was there when I moved there forty years ago. The Baptist Church down the street was there when I moved there forty years ago. Sanders Elementary School was there when I moved there forty years ago. Uh I'm used to what they've done. They are extremely noisy on that park. Uh they knocked the stop sign down at community center driving school road just down yesterday. They knock it down about once a month. Um there's gonna be more traffic going around that curve. It's the trucks going to the electrical supply that's knocking
the signs down. But uh there's gonna be a lot more traffic going down there for that church for that. Same reason there's one one way to get in on school road.
Right.
Uh I don't know if you would know that, but forty Forty one going south, you can't turn on the school road. So everybody's got to go down to community center and make a right, go to the school road and make a right to get down to that church, or the electrical supply. So it sounds like my time is up.
Well thank you. We appreciate you coming and uh expressing your concerns. Do we have any questions? For this. Person.
I I will say that I've lived there forty something years and I don't fertilize my yard.
It's green.
Okay, is there anyone else that wanted to speak? Nobody on the list.
That's it. Can I ask a question to staff? Is school road a collector road? Shall I?
You have the transportation folks on here that can answer that question.
So according to your agenda memo, it's a local road. It's a loc. Okay. That's what condition fact two says. All right, thank you.
I'm sorry, that's correct. Um school road is considered a local road and it is Thank you.
Okay, shall we?
Thank you, Shelley Johnson, 6400 Madison Street. I have been sworn. Um to address the drainage issue, obviously it was what what John is saying, a lot of these are site-related issues, site plan related issues, but as far as the lake, there is no current path on this property. The lake, the entire back end of the property is a c class one wetland, as y'all can see. Um they may put a path in there and some type of a little observation dock, but there's no intention to use motorized boats. So if you want to add that as a condition, I don't think my client has an objection to it if it provides some comfort
to the residents, because that's absolutely not the intention. It's um he's talked to Swift Mud. Apparently Swift Mud's told them maybe they could have a little path through there and you know, but a little dock, but that's about it. I mean he's not they're not gonna be launching boats. Or anything like that. That's not the intention. So
So can I ask one more question? On the traffic, are your services primarily on Sundays?
Yeah, so we are under all the thresholds. I think um Libby Rodriguez is the traffic engineer on the on this uh development, but I think she put it in for twelve five um right now th it's just probably gonna be a a six thousand square foot um that's what they're planning for a sanctuary but it's all under yeah, it's under all the thresholds. It didn't work.
The reason I'm asking is because this This Sanders Elementary is not gonna be operating on Sundays, so I'm not sure that the total traffic
significantly increased because Sanders and O Sanders Elementary won't B
operating.
Operating on Sunday.
Are they proposing anything like, you know, a preschool?
It's just the sanctuary. Just the
sanctuary.
Yeah.
Just
the
weekends.
So didn't you?
Yeah, just on Sunday. I think it was no affiliated school. A M PMP. No, yeah. So that it's gonna be different times that they're gonna be able to do that.
So if they wanted to do a school or daycare
It would have to come in for a special exception. They
specifically stated approval.
That's correct. They specifically stated at their pre app that they were not
doing a daycare or a school. Right. We would have to come in and amend if they were gonna do anything like that.
Right. Which would be the only thing that would affect traffic. So Right. Additionally. So there's there's some mention too, it's on the survey of a single family residence on the property. Is that still there?
There's a vacant residence on that property. No one lives in it. Um there is no path to the lake right now. Um and then there's two vacant parcels on both sides of the property, and then the electrical, the Edmondson's electrical, and the north side right there at 60 uh at school road in 41. So
What's the plan for the single family resident?
Um I'm not really sure if it's gonna be demolished, if they're gonna raise it or This is Pastor Tyson.
Hello, thank you for hearing us today. Uh Pastor Prater, [address removed]. Um What was your question again?
Uh regarding the single family structure that's on the property now.
Um it's just uh our plan is for it to remain. It's about nine hundred square feet. Uh we just uh use it right now. We have some of our equipment and things stored in there. Um and uh occasionally I have some meetings in there with like my pastors council or things of that nature. But um Mm we don't really have any plans to um live there or anything. I I live in uh Lake Pageant. Mm, myself personally, so I have my own home.
Okay.
Yeah, so church offices basically. Right.
So are are are your services only on Sundays, is that correct? Or do
you have Sunday mornings and then our youth group meets on Wednesday nights at seven PM for about an hour from seven to eight.
And how many people are in the youth group.
Um right now there's like ten.
But you said that's seven to eight on Wednesday nights. Yes.
Yes.
That's well after school traffic or
Mm. Because you do reali yeah, that bottleneck down there at School Road is difficult. I I have the pleasure of having to go through there on almost a daily basis.
Oh absolutely. I see it when I'm there at nine in the morning. Yeah. Yes.
Okay. Any other questions?
Shelley, do you have anything else?
Do you have anything else for me? I'd be glad to answer.
No, I you I understand from your uh Attorney, that uh you don't have any objection to being restricted from motorized traffic on the lake.
No sir. No no objection at all to that.
Okay. All right, I mean I'd I'd like to I'd like to hear a motion, but I'd like to have it include that restriction.
So if that was a restriction I think the line would be something like Motorized boat access to Thomas Lake shall be prohibited. That cover it, Denise? Yes, that's exactly what I wrote. Okay. Well I guess we think alike. Scary. All right. So I I
make a motion to
Sergeant Lawyer Rates.
I make a motion to approve of that restriction.
I will second. Yeah we have a motion and a second. Any further discussion on the motion?
Yeah I have two issues with it and I will vote no. One is I know the area well and I have a concern about the traffic. I know school road is a difficult road at times. And the other one is com compatibility with the community itself. I heard uh three people and I know some folks that I know the area. And based on my knowledge of the road and the area itself, I think that the com compatibility is
a concern to me, so I just wanted to share that with the folks. Okay.
Great. Thank you, Peter. All right, so we have a motion. And we've had discussion. Is there any other other discussion? And we have we've had a second. All in favor of the motion signify by saying aye. Aye. Opposed, like, sign?
Uh no.
Okay. The motion carries.
Okay. Yeah, I'll set. No motors on the lake.
So Mr. Chair, um we can move on to item PC nine or we could take up P A P C eleven. However, you'd like.
Nine's fine.
Okay, so Patrick Dutter will be presenting items PC nine and PC ten.
Bayonet Point. Very okay. I