P seven amendments to signs, digital signs, nonconformities

1:14:49Thank you, Mr. Chairman Mariano. The last item we have is uh P seven and Ms. Elizabeth Buller will take care of

1:14:54it.

1:14:55Yeah.

1:15:00Good afternoon. Elizabeth Lair, Pasco County Attorney's Office. And this is the uh Local planning agencies public hearing on proposed amendments to the Pasco County Land Development Code.

1:15:18It's an ordinance by the Pasco County Board of County Commissioners, amending the Pasco County Land Development Code, ordinance number eighty-nine-21 as amended, providing for amendments to section 406.1 signs, section 601, traditional neighborhood development, section 1200, nonconformities, creating section 1203.4, nonconforming signs, amending appendix A definitions, providing for additional. amendments as necessary for internal consistency. Providing for acquitability, repealer, severability, inclusion

1:15:49into the land development code, modification, and an effective date. So the um proposed reason for the amendments is as follows. First off, there is the constitutional law case um read of town of Gilbert, United States Supreme Court decision that our ordinance is not in compliance with. We're also effectuating the BCC's direction to allow digital signs in certain locations. And we're also updating 601.10 signs in special districts. We

1:16:19found some discrepancies in that part of our code as well that needs to be consistent with the read case as well as 406, the regular sign standards. And that's the uh area of the county like villages of Passiana Hills and Connected City signage. We actually restructured four oh six one in its entirety for ease of use, and I actually have provided to you a table of contents of how it's restructured. Um this is actually very helpful. I brought this to our code compliance folks last week along with Denise Hernandez, who has

1:16:49worked extensively on this matter with me. And we think the new layout will make it easier to find things. It's a little more intuitive. So when we do actually look at the document itself, you'll see a lot of red line. And it's very thick and meaty because it's been moved around and rearranged so the actual ordinance itself is only half the size. Okay? Um We also clarify terminology throughout the sections and to provide stronger and better provisions for dealing with blight

1:17:19at the request of the commissioners. Language was also modified for legal reasons that help our co-prosecuting attorneys with some of the cases they've had in the past. We've also moved non-conforming signs out of 406 into Chapter 1200 nonconformities. It seemed to make sense to be put the all the other non-conformities in the LDC. And then we're new additional language added for prohibitions on materials and then also maintenance standards or temporary signs were being proposed. We've added

1:17:49computation of sign shape and area. And then we also have created some non-substantial and substantial modifications to the unified sign plans, which we did not have before. On April eighteenth, two thousand and twenty two

1:18:04The interested parties at the horizontal roundtable group did review the documents in front of you, and we did not receive any comments. Um what I would like to propose to you, and of course it's up to you here, Um I don't know how much detail you want to get into on the ordinance, but what we could do. As I suggest, we could walk through the strike-through version, which you have in your your civic clerk on documentations there. and be able to go through that and kind of talk about what's been changed. That is of

1:18:34course the larger document, but because it shows the changes, it's easier for you all to see what's different. Before I go any further, do you have any questions or comments?

1:18:44Right?

1:18:47There is one other thing that I have added, so there's not enough here. After speaking with one of our commissioners, it was highly suggested that we create a section within this new proposed land development code sections that allow for neighborhood homeowners associations and condominium associations to have digital signage, like we had created for CDDs several years ago. years ago. Okay. So I do have language in front of all of you that I did come up with um that addresses that

1:19:17commissioner's request and it's modeled very heavily after what I had drafted for the CDDs a couple years ago and that's in front of you also. Okay?

1:19:28So as for the table of contents, it's it's kind of self-explanatory. We we go from very general basic statements of purpose and applicability and to what signs are exempt. Then you go in through the process of how you get an authorization for a sign. Keeping in mind not all signs require authorization from the county. Some signs are just outright exempt from having to have a permit poll. But then again, the signs you actually have to construct that have to go through some kind of a footer or the building code standards for lighting, et

1:19:58cetera, those all have to have permits pulled. And there's a particular standard for that outside of our regular building permit process because you are dealing with constitutionally protected speech. So timelines are shorter and the standards are different for those kind of permits. We also have the prohibition on sites and materials, abandoned signs. We have a brand new provision called Substitution Non-Commercial Speech for Commercial Speech. That's yet another constitutional protection for the county and for a speaker who wants to take a commercial message and swap out

1:20:28non-commercial messaging instead without having to come to the county for permission to do so. So we've included that legal standard in our code. We also decided to put our permanent signs that are exempt from obtaining permits along with our temporary signs that don't require permits in the same area. They actually work together better that way. We have um Rearranged our digital sign standards. We've the sections kind of grown over the past couple of years. So Denise and I really had to get into it and rearrange everything and start with

1:20:58general standards before getting to the more details to make that section flow. So that section will look like it's entirely new when the standards are just being replaced in a new location. Okay? We then of course have um standards for residential district and non residential. Nothing's changed there. Uh maybe some word tweaking for read. That's about it. And then the unified sign plans, just so you're aware, the unified sign plans are Sign plans for entire communities or entire development. In fact, you've got

1:21:28opening up, I believe today, is the crate commercial complex over there at the groves. That is functioning under a unified sign plan. The idea for a unified sign plan is that you're allowed to kind of bend the regular rules and the standards adopted in the land development code if you're doing something special. Effort for space placemaking or a theming. We will let you have some variations. Um for example, I think the crate I that was a crate, but I didn't see their plan. I believe that crate

1:21:59actually has upright crates with giant letters on them, which would certainly be far exceed our sign code standards for other signage. So you get the idea of what a united uh unified sign plan is for. It's that placemaking. So Denise crafted modifications to that, looking at whether or not they're substantial or non-substantial, because the process to get a unified sign plan initially is onerous. It requires a developer's agreement that's recorded, it requires going to the Board of County Commissioners. So we wanted to carve out when it's a non-substantial

1:22:29modification that staff could approve it. So using the same standards roughly that she was accustomed to for. MPUDs we created a modification that was substantial and non-substantial.

1:22:42And then we can um actually look at the document together if you'd like. If you want to bring up the document that's the strike through. version. The first ten pages roughly are whereas clauses, which we don't need to dwell on. This is just setting the standards for why we're enacting the laws that we're acting from a legal perspective and a fact-finding perspective on behalf of the county's protection since we are regulating

1:23:14Constitutional. Rights of speech, right?

1:23:19So in looking at the um applicability Or the general uh statement A lot of things you see in here, there's gonna be small tweaks where you'll see a word is struck and replaced with a different word. We had Christy Sims from our office. I'm sure a lot of you know Christy and her work in code compliance. She's also really good with constitutional law. Um she actually helped with this document in any place that she knew she had to have a little more clarity or has has seen how things have played out. In our court system with

1:23:50some sign cases, we allowed her to go ahead and just make edits to stuff. So you'll see just little tweaks, and that's mostly Christie's stuff.

1:24:01And then we show also here we've moved non-conforming over to two after twelve hundred. Exempt signs, these are the same as they've been. They've just been relocated, so it looks like it's all new stuff. One thing that is new though is Pasco County, or all local governments, I should say, are preempted By section 604.5 Florida statutes for farm signs. So the farmers market does not have to come to the county for any sort of approval for a sign from here in out. So that's actually now called out in our land development

1:24:31code at the request of a commissioner. So other than that, the exempt signs should all be the same.

1:24:39There's a few tweaks to the authorization for signs. This is the whole permitting process. Once again, just a few things changed at Christy's request.

1:24:49And you go through

1:24:52Very slight changes there. Um there are there is a new section that's being added in regards to signs on county property. The concept is for the county to be able to clearly be able to establish signs on its own property that are wayfinding signs. The idea is that tourism may want to with some of their funds be able to have their own little signage But there, you know, Florida Sports Coast branding logo on the signs, being able to point out different

1:25:22tourism attractors from the county's signage and the rights of way. So kind of creating a wayfinding program to help our visitors find locations. That's kinda that would be a new thing for us. I mean you currently you see things that FDOT does. It would be a county program akin to that, specific to what we want to point out. So, what we've decided to do to help our code compliance folks have a little more tools is we prohibit some materials. Clearly, there are some types of materials for a permanent sign that just do not make sense. So we're

1:25:52prohibiting the use of non-deter non-durable materials such as paper, cardboard, fabric, vinyl, plywood, or unfinished materials when you have a permanent sign, which is kind of logical, but believe it. or not, people were trying to use materials like this for permanent signs. We also have made it clear that um

1:26:14Signs that are prohibited. Um Uh we're we're clarifying what some of the definitions are of signs that are prohibited, cleaning up some things for to help our code officers. Um for example, just a easy one. Um how often do you see the wavy man blow up character or brightly colored uh in a commercial area. Well Technically that kind of sign could be prohibited under our existing prohibition on activated signs, but code wasn't always comfortable with that because

1:26:45that definition was so broad. So we've actually created a new category of air-blown devices, and that would be that kind of signage. So whether you like it or not, you know, so that that's what that means is so you'll see that there are some things in here that have been expanded upon for code. Yeah.

1:27:02We also have expanded um The ordinance to recognize the feather banners and the feather banner situation in the county that we've been asked to strengthen the code to be able to reduce the number of feather banners being used, especially the ones that are falling apart and they always end up slipping down like somebody's pants or something. So maintenance standards clearly would capture those sort of things. Once again, giving tools to code compliance. And we've also cleaned up the abandoned sign section. This actually came out of a case that Patrick

1:27:33Moore in our office had. And so language is being added to here to reflect the court's order in that case.

1:27:40And then next section comes up is that substitution of non-commercial speech for commercial speech. So we've got a paragraph in there about that. And then now you'll see some things moved around under the permanent signs exempt from obtaining building sign permits and temporary signs. Some things were moved around and put in other places. We still have the sandwich signs and window signs. It's just been placed elsewhere.

1:28:05Now under temporary signs, um In an effort to and at the direction of the Board of County Commissioners to um reduce the number of feather banners in the neighborhood or in communities around commercial properties. The concept of um classifying them as temporary signs and allowing you to have the feather banner, that's fine. You get a temporary sign. You can either have a sandwich sign, a regular temporary sign on little posts, a feather banner. uh banner in general. Um, all within size limitations, you

1:28:35can choose what your temporary sign is gonna look like. But they also did tell us that if you are uh A user that has a digital signage, because now we're allowing for more digital signs, and we'll get to that a little later on in the ordinance. But if you're if you're a business owner that has a digital sign, there would be a prohibition on the feather banner because you now have the ability to have multiple messaging on that sign. You just runs the loop, how many messages you may want to have during the course of a day, a

1:29:05week, a month. So No longer do you need all these feather banners stuck in the ground. So you can put the message you would put on your feather banner on your actual digital signage, whether it's grand opening, whether it's Uh e cigars, you know, whatever those banner signs are being used

1:29:21for. Liz, what what's a feather banner? I'm not sure.

1:29:25Okay, the confines are called blade signs. They're the tall, like portable, um vinyl. flag. You see them outside of lots of commercial businesses, gas stations. They're on that wad and they fall down. Right. They don't stand up very well in the Florida sun. They they they seem to deteriorate pretty quickly some of them. So those are the kind of things that you know are easy low-hanging fruit to clean up if you just give your code officers the ability to say Hey, it's in disprepair, take it down. Or you've got too

1:29:55many of 'em, you know. Sell.

1:30:01And then we have standards now for maintenance of temporary signs, once again the feather banner example. But allowing our code to actually say, hey, you know, it's got to come down, it's broken. Um if they believe that there's some safety issues, they can go ahead and remove the sign themselves. and we then had to when I spoke about cleaning up for the Reed case, the Reed case without going into great detail, basically said that you had to treat All sign All all all all entities using these temporary signs the same in the same

1:30:32manner. So you couldn't tell the church they could only have a sign out on Sunday mornings that's two by four and then allow the politician to have a sign that's eight by six for ten weeks. had to have fair rules across the board. So that's what we've done. And in doing the fair rules across the board, there's no no longer longer the the need need for categories of signs like a real estate sign. I no longer need to call out a real estate sign and what that is and how long it can be there for because it's a temporary sign. It's gonna go up. uh fifteen days prior to

1:31:02whatever the event is and it's gonna come down five days after. So in the case of a real estate sale, if you're about to list the house, you're gonna put the sign you can put the sign up fifteen days in advance. The house sells and you got five days to take the sign down. You're running for office. You're gonna go and you're gonna qualify for your your your your office and fifteen days prior to doing your paperwork with the clerk. or the or the supervisor of elections, you can put your signs out. After your election's over, take them down within five days. So you see that we're having these general standards

1:31:32across the board for different types of signs, you no longer need to call out signs. So I've deleted real estate sign, construction sign. Um menu signs, things that just you no longer need. Um any questions so far? Any more? No, you're good? Okay. Hopefully I'm not boring you all too much.

1:31:50You're doing good. Yeah, good blessing.

1:31:53You have a question, Roberta? Oh okay, go ahead.

1:31:57Uh more of a comment along the lines of what she's saying is uh the easy way of looking at this is think about what we regulate is location, time and manner. We cannot regulate content. That's against the uh freedom of speech amendments. So if you think about location, time and manner, and then think about what she's she's she's saying, that's that's why we're going for it.

1:32:27Thank you. Um so We have a new concept that I hit on briefly, sign shape, and area computation. Some signs out there are different pieces, like the PDQ drive-thru comes to mind. They got the big P and a D and a Q, and they're not touching each other. So this is to help staff when they're reviewing sign applications, like, okay, well how do I determine that that's not That that's the right size. We're allowed to do that under our code. So there's this new little standard

1:32:58there. Which we actually had over in section six hundred in the in the traditional neighborhood design. I had no idea, so I moved it over here as well. We also then move into digital science. Um The intent and purpose of the digital signs is basically to allow multiple messaging, like I said. Our board has directed that we open the categories of where they're allowed beyond tourism attractors and the CDDs to actually allow them to be used in zoning districts that are office, commercial,

1:33:28and industrial. So we've expanded that And what they want us to do is use our existing standards. For example, you can get a 12 foot tall monument sign right now. And you can take that sign and instead of putting in your sign face, you can plop in put in digital, plop in digital right now. So that's kind of how that works. So signs aren't any bigger, you're just allowed now to have that digital display on the sign where you couldn't before. Okay. So

1:34:00There are standards that we've had about it has to be static exchange, a dwell time of no less than 15 seconds. A dwell time is how long each individual message is actually visible, okay? That signs can't be interactive, they can't resemble warning signs, so forth. That's all existing stuff from prior digital requirements. Just looks like it's new because like I said I had to rearrange everything to make it make sense better. Um of course we control the brightness and light trespass. They can't be auditory.

1:34:30They can't admit any sounds. Um there has to be of course someone on on call contact with the county in case there is a glitch. Because they can become, you know A problem if they start flashing in the middle of the night or something, right? So we then move into our different categories of digital signs. The regional attractors, that was the first one we've had. We created that for, and actually only one entity has actually used that, and that's the fair. You see the fair out here on 52, drive past that, they've actually

1:35:00were the first to do digital under this section when we adopted this. But the advent ice sheets could do this. It's large enough, they have events there. There's different places that could use that that haven't used it yet that might. And then the new categories that we've added on for the digital Or after C D's.

1:35:23Okay, so after the CDD is where that homeowners association and condo association language would best fit. And like I explained, MIRS we've already adopted for CDDs. So I would just be inserting this um right between between pages twenty-eight and twenty-nine. And that would be to address those particular communities that do have a need for additional messaging. Like almost like a C D D does. You know, they collect assessments, they have annual meetings or monthly meetings, they have events they

1:35:53schedule for their folks, and these signs would be on their property focused just at their residence, not visible from outside the community, just like for the C D Ds. And then the standards like I said for office commercial industrial would be like your regular standard. Sign sizes and signing requirements just to have a swap out of a s of the uh static for a digital phase.

1:36:19And then the standards for signs in residential districts pretty much stayed the same. Um

1:36:28We did want to address the oddity, uh not really an oddity, probably more common than not, of when you have a non-residential use actually in a residential zoning area like a church. Okay? We want them to be able to have signs, but not the big signs, and we also don't want them to have digital because once again they're in the wrong zoning, they're in residential. So we clarified that in here as well for that.

1:36:48Elizabeth, while you're on the topic I have a question. Sure. So I assume we're talking about The rules on page thirty one it's subsection D.

1:36:58Uh-huh.

1:37:00So Is that if it's a home based business, is that the rule they follow?

1:37:06A home based business might be covered elsewhere in the code, David. I'll have to look into that.

1:37:11Well because the reason I'm asking is because there is in the special districts section There's a specific section called home based business that says it's on page fifty one.

1:37:27Okay, y now you're back over in in chapter six hundred, yeah. That The special districts, we were clearly we were going to, this is Denise and I talking, we're wanted to regulate all signage for special districts where they have that mixed use component going on where you can be next to commercial, next to residential, by using the standards in 600 because the signs are smaller and less intrusive.

1:37:52Right.

1:37:53So that would be a home based business in six hundred, but a regular home based business I don't think is covered by this at all. I think it's over in our home-based business section.

1:38:01That's my confusion. Okay. Is it's clearly addressed in the special districts how the sign you can have for a home based business. But as you know there was legislation recently passed that allows home based businesses almost anywhere. Right. So I'm trying to figure out what a home based business can do when you're not in the special district. And I can't tell whether that's governed by the

1:38:26Yeah, uh let me look into that and I'll get with Denise because I I I I'm pretty sure that home-based business still stands alone and has some kind of signage allotment. Just over there and what what section would that be in? I don't You guys don't know? It's P maybe it's in miscellaneous uses or something? Yeah. I'll have to look into that.

1:38:46I'm just going to do that. I don't know that the requirements should be more stringent in special districts than they are Within the rest of the county or

1:38:57something.

1:38:57I would actually think. Special districts may be less stringent because they're mixed use.

1:39:04If it's the rules on thirty it's on page thirty one, those seem less stringent. than what's allowed in the special district.

1:39:12The the rules on thirty-one paragraph D are to handle the non-residential use, like the treatment care facility or a church, something like that that's not not a home-based business. It's an actual business that you're in residential.

1:39:32That that's

1:39:33it's too big.

1:39:34That's too big of a sign. Right. And it should be something more comparable to what you allowed in the special district section.

1:39:40Right. No, I'll look into that. Thank you. Absolutely.

1:39:43Because I don't see home based businesses called out anywhere specifically in the

1:39:47general code. I don't I don't I don't think it is, frankly. Okay, I'll look into that. Um another addition is that we now are going to put it in black and white that you have to have your street address numbers on your signs. Apparently that seems to be a problem on US 19. It's been a headache for folks and code officers, so now we're actually regulating that and that's actually going to be retroactive. So you've got to put some numbers up if you haven't already. Um in the next section about ground signs, nothing has changed here. Nothing has changed in wall

1:40:17signs, projecting signs, awning signs, none of that. Signs internal to non-residential development is still the same. Um I had to change some verbiage a little.

1:40:34Unified sign plans are voluntary. We made that clear. And then of course if you move through that you see that there are prohibited signs in USPs. It's not a free for all one hundred percent. You just can push the rules a little. And We then Added to the back of that. The modifications to the USP. That begins on page 42. And it's nicely written by Denise.

1:41:11And then we also have In the world of signs, if your sign code is struck down, you want it to be very, very clear that everything is several and that If anything else is struck down, this one little loan part remains. That's on page forty four. We've had this in our land development code in one shape or form for probably Oh, I would say probably a good sixteen years. Um, that's gonna be the default signage in Pasco County should everything else get shot down by some court someday.

1:41:46We have our enforcement sign with some modifications to help code out. And then we go into the chapter um

1:41:56Chapter six hundred, I see there's some typos there.

1:42:03And this section was interesting. We actually didn't even realize it existed because correct me if I'm wrong, David, but we've never really used the TND provisions of our land development code for anything. It's like long leaves and M P U D. We never really had anyone straight out white do this.

1:42:18There may have been a few boat projects that qualify for D and D, but I don't remember them specifically.

1:42:23Yeah. So we actually found a sign section within it and thought, well that's interesting. And some of it needed to be fixed due to the read case. Some of it didn't make any sense and was kind of redundant. So we went ahead while we were in the sign world, cleaned this up. And like I said, is this makes sense when you're doing a special district for V OPH to to use these standards because they're more appropriate to that form of development.

1:42:51And then we have after that just some definitions that are cleaned up Okay, there's a home-based business sign on page fifty one, David, and that is the six oh that's just for the uh the TND like you were saying. But that could very well be the standard that we put elsewhere if

1:43:05we like it. That was

1:43:06my only point

1:43:06is that it's it's clear in the special districts how you're handling their signage, but it wasn't clear to me how you're

1:43:13handling it

1:43:13in the rest of the county.

1:43:14And yeah, maybe we just take that same standard and and and put it over there too. Okay. Um we have then

1:43:24Some definitions we had a cleanup in six hundred. They actually had their own definitions, kind of interesting. And Non-conforming signs on page 62, you might find this interesting. Some of this already was in the sign code, but got moved out to here. Um What's we have a new standard that you cannot have a new permanent sign committed on a parcel while you have a non-conforming sign on the parcel. An example would be if you've got an existing commercial business that has a roof sign, which

1:43:54is a prohibited sign, and you want to come in and build a monument sign, you'd have to take down that roof sign. And we also will let you convert to digital if you have a non-conforming sign on your property. Um the structural damage, 50%, more than 50% or more, that's standard, altered, that's standard non-conforming language. Um, removal directions on how that has to be finished. And then this was kind of just one that I came up with, and it's this exemption, it seems to me like Maybe you can have a non-conforming sign that has some sort of

1:44:24value to it. And the sign that comes to my mind in Pasco is the Golfhew Square Mall sign. It's Hideous, but it's like from the sixties. I mean there's it's it's non-conforming, but there's something maybe historical about it. Or in in other jurisdiction you've got the fruit's big boy. I mean there's something to be said for these older signs. And if there is something interesting out there and and I don't know, someone's discretion, um maybe it's dangerous language, I don't know, but it just seemed that it was worthy to acknowledge that these things might exist so they could continue to

1:45:03How old is the golf piece score mall? You must know this, Chuck.

1:45:06She looks at me. Well, because you live in that

1:45:08part of Pasco and always have.

1:45:11Yeah, it's it's it's uh night.

1:45:18Yeah, I mean it it's it's a f it's a funky, non conforming sign. But does that mean that they, you know, had to take it down? I I don't know. It's just an idea. Alright, and then we have our definitions and um You know, it's just basic cleanup to make things clearer, to create definitions for things like air blown devices. to you know Christy went through these and 'cause she had known that sometimes in going through her code compliance cases that there was a little bit of vagueness in that definition that she would get caught up on. So she cleaned up these for us, created

1:45:48some new ones that she needed. Some of them went away And Basically that that is it. The work has taken a significant amount of time because you know it's a big project and it's the kind of project that when you set it down and walk away because some other priority comes up, it takes you months to get back to where you were, you know, because it's such a brain thing, right? So this has been laying around through different processes for the past couple of years at least, and we think that it's good to go

1:46:19forward. Um It's been vetted in-house, it's gone to the horizontal round table, it's been looked at by various folks, it's been looked at by the commissioners. Um

1:46:30Elizabeth, speaking of looking at it, has anybody who actually makes digital signs looked at the technical requirements for the digital signs to make sure that They can actually build a digital sign that meets these technical.

1:46:45Nope. Nobody has looked at them that I'm aware of, but they've also been in existence for what the past five years. But I mean I have no problem having someone look at it.

1:46:54Well, I d okay, I didn't realize so these are not new requirements for the direction.

1:46:57It only looks like it's new because I rearranged. The only thing that's new is the zoning categories and the HOA and s in and the in the condo association stuff.

1:47:05So somebody's already been building digital signs that comply with these requirements?

1:47:09The the fair is the only one that I'm aware of. Now there may be other digital signs out there that I'm just not aware of.

1:47:13But I guess the fair

1:47:17Yeah, yeah, our our our staff processed it. So

1:47:21Okay. I just want to make sure we're not keeping the promise of a digital sign and then there's nobody that can actually meet the technical requirements of it.

1:47:29Right. No, I mean I I have heard nothing. Like I said, it's been in place for a couple of years. Now it's unfortunate I don't have like Vanessa here, she would know if there's been digital science process, but yeah, it's been the very limited categories and they haven't taken us up on it. So it's the expense too. It it's it's very very expensive. Expensive.

1:47:46For for your information. We have one in our community that we put up and it's a very attractive sign. I think it's been up for top probably two years now. Yeah, under the provision we wrote for you. And the only thing I would like to make a comment about that is I think you have in the code it needs to be very strict at that the sign messages uh be uh directed towards the community itself. In other words, community sponsored organizations, the the one of the things that

1:48:16we had to do finally was to pass a a particular ruling for our sign that you tend to get people wanting to come in there, hi I'm having a bake sale this much, or I'm with the XYZ corporate company and I want to put the sign up for we have made the signings there and I would encourage you to to look at that is to make it very strict. Otherwise you get a

1:48:37Yeah, but here's the problem. County can't control that speech, but because it's your sign owned by your C D D and you use it in your proprietary capacity, you can make the rules for your sign. But the county can't tell you what's allowed on your sign. That's then I'm censoring speech then. I can't do that. Now I can say directed to the community, I can say, and I tried doing that in the HOA document, and maybe it's a good thing to take a look at right now. In the HOA document, or

1:49:06What page was that?

1:49:07Um it I it's that loose one lean around that I gave to you that has letter N.

1:49:11Yeah.

1:49:12I'm gonna put it in between twenty eight and twenty-nine. Now I was sitting there thinking about it this morning and I had taken some scribbled notes from a conversation I had with Jeff Steinsteiner last week. And I got the idea in my brain from my notes that I wrote is to allow non-commercial digital display on signs in limited situations. You know, that's as far as I can go as a county regulator. That you guys have to, it's just like your cat your policies for whether or not you're gonna let somebody rent your your community center for a

1:49:42garage sale. It you know, I I struggle the same thing with my CDD. We have our own rules on how our property's to be used and that's your sign.

1:49:51I I can I agree with you to a certain extent, but I think what we did we uh use the county's ordinance in the digital sign part to come up and to make it a very strict, narrow uh rule for usage. Uh just as the if you read through your county when you have you set time the number of seconds uh sign uh message to be

1:50:16consumed. Do you have a d do not have a d okay though hang on the standards that The other digital signs would apply standards apply to C Ds as well, like the dwell time. All of those rules still apply to your sign.

1:50:28Okay.

1:50:28Okay. Maybe that's not clear and I could certainly try and make that clear. And if you want me to put like I'm trying to for the HOA, this non commercial messaging, I can add that to the C D D. I mean, uh that's probably as far as I could go.

1:50:43Okay, I can't no problem doing that.

1:50:45Because what it does it allows the staff at those facilities to to uh decline people coming in to use it or requesting uh Signage. We live on a golf course and so we allow one to com to use both the the golf course which is privately owned, right and ours which is publicly owned, who hold events at one facility which is the private one, and now they want to put the uh signage on the public one. So we use that

1:51:15ruling and the the board felt that it was a way to allow staff Say no rather than bring it to the board every time somebody requests or something. Okay.

1:51:24So

1:51:24it's a time time management issue too.

1:51:26I I do want to point one more thing out to that will maybe help you guys. If you look at page twenty eighths, At the strike through version. At the very bottom, under citing requirements It says signs containing digital display must comply with all applicable requirements of section 406.1.8 general standards. And I'm going to make sure that internal sites correct. But all of the other stuff that comes before here, that deals with Lighting

1:51:57not being directed skyward. Static loop only. Dwell time of 15. That's all that stuff applies to your sign as well. Correct. Okay, all right, I want to make sure you knew that.

1:52:08as well as the size. Anything that's not specifically carved out in the C D D, all the other general stuff, location setback, any of that thing. The only thing that's going to be different is whether it's a carve out specific to the CDD. So they need to be able to know to go back and look at the introductory section a digital to and look at all the general standards as well. Okay, that won't help. Okay. Anyone else uh?

1:52:32Yeah, uh just a question about schools. Has anything changed with that or we just

1:52:37schools.

1:52:37Okay, that's

1:52:37what I thought. We we decided we didn't want to, since we didn't do that twenty years ago to start now. Now's not the time. Okay. Maybe next year.

1:52:48All right.

1:52:58Uh not to open up a can of worms, but would we be similar to a government 'cause I'm thinking like the library.

1:53:07No, just about signage. You go by a library, there's signage there. I would just think there's something like that. And I think what we're doing now is fine what with you know, just keep doing what we're doing.

1:53:17Isn't there a general exemption for government signs?

1:53:19Uh okay Yeah, that there's there's a distinction. I mean i this okay this is really gonna go down some rabbit holes. Um governance

1:53:26we don't have to go don't down too far, but

1:53:28maybe a minute or two. Schools the s we we've had this conversation in the years past. The school is subject to to the county's land development county. Whether or not we actually force you guys is one thing. We know the colleges have their own plans, so they're kind of they you know have their own plans so they do whatever they want. Um we also know you have your own building standards, so you get a pass on vertical stuff. So it's kind of this weird area that no one wants to be definitive on. When it comes to government signs, government signs are anything from you know a stop sign to a street sign to um the

1:53:59Pasco County Attorney's Building Sign to the West Pasco government. I mean, it's a wide variety of different types of signs. And technically, none of that are actually signs because it's government speech. So we don't even have to reference government-owned enough used signs in here. And actually, there's a really great sign attorney named Susan Cheverathon. And she her recommendations don't even mention government because you have the government speak. speech doctrine. You're not even assigned. You know, you're a different entity on your own. And I think the school district would probably argue the same thing because

1:54:29you are a government, you know, that it's government speech. Right. But I just kinda like I talked to Christy and I'm like, do you want me to carve out government signs? And she said no, leave it alone. Don't go there.

1:54:42Yes.

1:54:42F

1:54:42six that says

1:54:46That's the existing. want me that's just been moved around. That's why it looks like it's new. It's always been there.

1:54:55You're not you eliminating the exemption for government songs.

1:54:58Uh say that again?

1:55:00You still have an exemption for government signs.

1:55:02Right. Right. We're just not gonna mess with it. We didn't we didn't see the ne need to

1:55:06I guess what I'm saying is to answer Richard's question There is an exemption for his size school science.

1:55:15Right, because it's government. That would be a page ten, number six, Richard, if you want to look at it.

1:55:23And so we want it we we we purposely did not allow our community development district science to be included, even though you are a government, because we wanted you to be subject to the rules, which is the standards for digital and location in the I

1:55:36think Richard's main question is do we consider the school district to be a government under that exemption?

1:55:41We can we can consider it to be a government and it's yeah. We can do the same thing with F D OT and we can federal Building Anything like that?

1:55:50Yeah. Okay, thank you. Yeah. Yeah, I think he definitely means to come under the rules. He's a rule breaker, I can see.

1:55:59Right.

1:56:02Can I ask one more question? I and I apologize. I was out of town In fact, I was out of speed. So I hadn't Not had an opportunity to read these. Let's address the issue about mobile signs. There is a individual that I think uh has a mobile business and he has signage on his vehicle. Is

1:56:20it the digital box trucks?

1:56:22Yes, yes. Uh how will that be handled or

1:56:26that's being ignored by this this code does not this code does not address that.

1:56:31Could I ask that? Never mind. I won't ask.

1:56:35I

1:56:35mean

1:56:35there's there's there's reasons for it. Um you know it would it's one thing to say okay you're assigned you need a building permit you've got to be located there and it if you're not you're not giving a building permit, you're not we're not permitting those trucks. We don't have a permitting structure for them. And I don't know what the basis to prohibit them would be because taxis can advertise things all day long on the sides of them. You've got people that rap their cars, you know, to get paid to advertise for somebody. They have their own business wrap. The only thing different is that box truck has a message that changes and that's

1:57:05brighter. We could set standards for brightness. You know, but we we haven't done that. We do have standards of brightness already in here that maybe applies to a moving vehicle. I don't know if that does, you know, if it's appropriate or not. Maybe that standard should be something lower because they are moving.

1:57:20I I would suggest that from a safety standpoint that uh whilst driving down the road somebody might be oh that's

1:57:25yeah.

1:57:29No weren't then it's not a land development regulation anymore. We're not regulating

1:57:33That's

1:57:33pretty

1:57:33cool.

1:57:33You're regulating what goes on somebody's vehicle, which probably something the state should be regulating from a safety perspective. Yeah. We don't We don't the county doesn't regulate what goes on vehicles. The only

1:57:45general. The only b the only vehicle sign regulation that we have um, is when you purposely take your vehicle and you Put it up on the side of the road and it's functioning as a sign, but we don't enforce that. I mean it would just we we d there's there's language in here about vehicle signs like that.

1:58:01But but those signs are static. In

1:58:03other words

1:58:03you look at it quickly, especially buses, you know, years ago when I was on one of the mobility uh ones, they did not advertise on buses for Pasco County. And I think Pat Millary and others, you know, pushed for that a little bit. Well the signs are on the buses now. So I look at it as static as opposed to the mobile digital signs that constantly change. And so I see it as a safety issue personally.

1:58:28Yeah, no, no, I I agree that that that would be the angle to come at it is a safety issue. But that that's not what's being addressed here. The extent that safety is issues being addressed in the world of digital, it's for the ones that are actually assigned.

1:58:39So the vehicle signs that we that are in the list of prohibited, we can when they park.

1:58:45Yeah. Some vehicles that had signage wrapped up on them, maybe things attached to them. outside of the regular line of the vehicle, like balloons and all kinds of crap that were sitting out on the edge, you know, by the right of way to advertise a business. That kind of stuff code has gone after in the past, but I don't think it's a regularly done thing. But now with these other tools about inflatable devices and air-blown devices and too many feather banners, they could much more easily, instead of looking at the vehicle and saying,

1:59:16that's a vehicle sign, they could just say, take all that stuff down. Yeah. Absolutely. So they've got flexibility for enforcement.

1:59:24I think with realtors, uh at least one individual I can think of, where they have a truck. And it's large, it's a a panel truck and they park it in front of the business and it's for all intents and purposes stationary.

1:59:39Yeah, and and that's the kind of vehicle signs I'm talking about. You see restaurants doing that. You see you see it happen all the time. It it's code has other things to worry about. If they wanted to actually go and say you're using your vehicle inappropriately, go park it in the back. uh it's few and far between. I mean I remember years ago that kind of being an issue.

1:59:58Elizabeth

1:59:59were you just reading a definition of vehicle software.

2:00:01Yeah there's one back on page seventy one.

2:00:05Do it there.

2:00:19Fift fifty one. It's on what page? I'm sorry. Seventy one. Seventy one. Item number fifty one.

2:00:27You know, and I'm I'm not entirely sure. What uh what what when Christie would use this and for what kind of factual scenario to to seek a violation of our code, I I I honestly don't know.

2:00:47Well that's why I'm trying to find the definition. I'm just wondering whether

2:00:54Sale though.

2:00:55It's actually the very last page on my packet.

2:00:58Okay, now I see it.

2:01:15She actually was in a meeting with our code officers when I was going through this with them a week and a half ago. And those lit box trucks came up, one of the officers wanted to know if they could if those were a problem under the digital provisions. And Chris, you said, nope, leave 'em alone, don't touch 'em, you know. So

2:01:33To me they're a safety issue.

2:01:36So this so this definition it basically says that it's It has to be parked, basically.

2:01:43Mm-hmm. So you're so you're using it as a sign?

2:01:52Which could be the realtor's sign that sits there for a month and doesn't move. It's just a matter of is someone complaining? Is someone, you know

2:02:01It just seems inconsistent with the intent to control and manage signage when someone can evade that completely by simply having a panel truck and parking park it in their parking lot.

2:02:14Well but I think What I'm hearing Elizabeth say is if it falls in this definition of vehicle sign on page seventy one, it's it's prohibited. prohibited.

2:02:22Right. So you're not supposed to be doing it but

2:02:26it's their part

2:02:29That would be a prohibited time. What's not prohibited is apparently if it's driving around.

2:02:34Right. Right. And the fact that something is prohibited, I mean we have what, eighteen code officers, and they're they're not going to just Stop, you know. It's it's complaint driven and it's it's kinda the hot buttons, you know, and there's certain type of signage that really hasn't been, you know, a problem and sometimes and then sometimes it is. You know.

2:02:57Well I think you should report 'em because I'm a realtor, I don't have one.

2:03:03Elizabeth, the only thing I would maybe s maybe suggest talk to Christy about is whether you should put the duration that is parked somewhere in the definition. Okay. Just because

2:03:16I mean because somebody could I mean the They might happen to be just be parked there for two minutes. I mean I I mean in shopping. You know what I mean? I there should be some minimum duration where we're saying that now it's effectively operating like a sign as opposed to they're just parked in the spot.

2:03:35Right.

2:03:41Because if we allow them while they're driving around, at some point they have to park and each or whatever. I mean they might just be parking to go to public. that shouldn't really necessarily be prohibited. Otherwise we've effectively prohibited them from driving around. Right. So I think there should be some duration that it's parked before we'll consider the vehicle sign.

2:04:06Is there any other questions? This is actually a public hearing, so you'd need to open it for public comment. And then

2:04:14Yeah, I mean Elizabeth and staff, I mean kudos for uh I mean you guys did a good job. There's a lot of I mean that's a lot of work and a lot of detail in this thing.

2:04:22Yeah, very good job. Is there any comment from the public?

2:04:25That's good.

2:04:28Okay. I guess you must have done a great job 'cause nobody was

2:04:33People need to be left, yeah.

2:04:36So

2:04:36we would ask for a a motion to approve. Sure or my feelings, I don't know about you.

2:04:41I'll make a motion to approve. Second.

2:04:45Second. Further discussion? All in favor? Aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Motion Carey.

2:04:51Thank you. Thank

2:04:51you, Liz.

2:04:52Denise wished she could have been here today. She went to the Sterling Conference and she was happy to see this move forward too, I'm sure.

2:05:02All right,

2:05:02thank you.