TBARTA jail benefits and code enforcement
What the county recorded
This item is not from the published agenda
It is a stretch of the recording that this archive identified as a separate matter — a call to order, a recess, or something taken up that the agenda does not list. There is no official title, no staff recommendation and no disposition, because the county never recorded one. Everything below is inferred.
The source document
The county’s agenda for Board of County Commissioners, Jan 24, 2023
The published PDF, as served by the county. This item is one entry in it.
The county’s minutes for Board of County Commissioners, Jan 24, 2023
The published PDF, as served by the county. This item is one entry in it.
What was said
Machine transcription of 34m of recording, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 83% of 155 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.
Commissioner Starkey.
Well were you done?
I'll be done.
Yes. I've got a lot, but we have a lot of time. To my hair point, reserved right there. No, we don't have much time. We
don't have no time.
Um so first of all, uh I'm very excited about Moffat too. Fortunately my responsibility at T Barta Caused me to miss the Moffet. I really seriously thought of canceling going to T Barda but I would have been the cause for no quorum. And then they couldn't take the vote to ask themselves, so I had to be there. Before we could finish doing all the action items that we had to do, Commissioner Kemp walked out. So there you go. So we didn't get to finish our business. But
um So T Barta will be around uh for another year, year two year and a half. Um while we wind things down, there are federal contracts. and um some other programs that we have to learn uh uh deal with and move on, one of them being the van pool. program. Um but As well. We all mentioned at the meeting Just because T BARDA is d disbanding doesn't mean we don't have a responsibility to come up with
a transit solution for one of the largest metropolitan service areas in the country, the largest one without a transit solution. So um We plan to continue uh working as a group to To find a way forward. Uh I did have a meeting with Tampa Bay Partnership yesterday. Um who's uh gonna help bring this uh move this conversation forward and um a small group of
us will be meeting to discuss some first steps and then it'll start to be shared with the all the counties and elect and city officials and You know uh municipalities involved, but We have a an environmental um We have a r a good route, I think, a good start from Wesley Chapel, a route that goes from Wesley Chapel to Um Saint Pete. And um District seven is doing what they can to
Um build that within the perimeters that they have. parameters that they have right now. They're a little hindered by some things in Hillsborough County. But Hmm. That environmental permit which you know the state gave us the money um to go act upon will be good for three years. And we don't wanna have to spend that money all over again. So It's not we just can't sit back and find another generation to
solve this. We we have to take some action. So hopefully um we'll be having more of this dialogue in the near future and certainly I'm certain it'll be coming up at the TMA meetings. And it's just we just gotta see where where um the responsibility, what responsible group is gonna take the reins since it's was not teabarta. So that's my T Barta message. Um I wanted to um go over Uh this
issue that was passed out to you guys. Um Jack is probably familiar with this from our time at FAC. Melissa McKinley was really working on this when no Jack that oh yeah. Oh pass those out. Uh there's Um not I'm sorry, I don't have one for the clerk, but I have a set no we can share I have a set for the commissioners and one for um The county attorney. So this has been something that we've been talking about at fact for a while in in in NACO. And it's really surprising, but When
when someone is arrested And um they go to jail. They lose their federal benefits. They if they're a veteran, they lose their fet veterans um health care. If you're on Medicare or Medicaid, you lose your health all your health benefits and so does your family. So um guess who takes that up? The county. gets the take on that bill. and they may be found not guilty. They may y they
may spend, I don't know, you know, six months in jail waiting for their trial or whatever and and we're covering everything. And um this is a federal issue, not a state issue. Uh but we are um We are just trying to raise our voice louder this year on working with our federal partners. To try and um not have people's benefits. taken away from them while they're awaiting trial. So uh I
am the chair of the FAC. uh federal committee this year and last year and Um this is one of the items we're gonna be working on when we're in Washington. And um are you going Jack? Oh yeah. Yeah. So um I don't know if anyone else is going. You are all welcome. But I wanted you to be aware of this um this inmate health care cost issue and uh you know the more advocates we have to change this the better. I'm trying to get in with Senator Rubio. To
discuss this. And um and I met with Mr. Murphy uh yesterday to discuss this and he's made a few calls and y I don't want to speak for you, you made a few calls to your peers. And And Michigan and
And Yeah. We'll let him speak. He never gets to speak.
They're digging in to your request, so I'm trying to get specific answers uh from our meeting
Yeah, but but they have the same issue. The uh when they they they lose the health care benefits and the county has to pick it up. And then it takes a while for that family for everything to get reinstated when they come out. It doesn't just happen the day they get out. They have to go through this process to get have it reinstated. So it doesn't seem Like a good plan. And so let's hope that we can Get that fixed. If
I could tag on to that a little bit.
Yeah.
Okay. So Mr. Murphy, I wish you had I had you in the meeting we had this morning. We had the uh OPI task force there, Kathy was there, Eric was there, Stacy Jenkin was there. Um Paula was there, Bacaraldo, um and we talked about uh the jail diversion programs about trying to avoid l them losing their benefits. and trying to look at what we had done for structure. And we had designed the jail from the get go. We we looked at Charlotte County. Staff had gone down there four years ago. They were down there recently six months ago. So they get
pretty in tune to what's there. Um We all agree that We'd like to still try to do something better. So if if I can get you into the next meeting Let's go take a look at it. We need to try to Keep every inmate that is going through let's say if the mental health issues Let's get him into mental health before We bring them into the jail. If they have opioid addictions, let's get them treated before they go in for these treatments. Um Whatever we can do to divert that, the better off it's gonna be.
And I think people maybe a lot more receptive instead of going to jail to go into treatment. if there's gonna be a path to go forward. And what I think with Kathy work with Catholic charities and what may what they may transpire with them It could even give another place where they can go to to help with recovery. But whatever we can do to try to make this happen, because it is a it's a huge burden for us and And maybe Mike if we could or uh Mr. Murphy we could get the uh data to how much we're paying every year. for this in mix healthcare cost Might
be the the talking point we need and that could help as well help us as we financially figure out What's the investment we should make to try to divert? And and keep this problem from stacking up over and over again. And now that we have the jail it's under our control directly those conversations should be a lot easier to have.
Yes, sir. We'll get that data for you.
Thank you. Sorry, carry on.
Um can you put up Well I don't know if I have any pictures up d is d did Denise leave?
Seriously. Huh?
She's got this.
Oh.
Okay, I'll try and do this until Denise comes in. So we pass the sign ordinance. I don't see if I have the date on here, I don't know. Um And Um one of the rules in our new sign ordinance is that And I'm gonna read it too right here. I don't know how to read legalese here. Let me see. Uh four oh six point one point five subsection non commercial speech for commercial
speech. That might be it. Um Number three. Uh one temporary sign of any type banner or feather banner that is not prohibited by this code for each residential lot. non-residential establishment having a certificate of occupancy or vacant lot. So This is something That um sadly I have to do that. We have to have our code department enforce. Uh you're you know when you drive
by and I have it all over my district and Jackie you wanna start cleaning up Hudson so this might help. you see five feather banners in front of a business and a temporary sign. No. Yeah only allowed one. You can have one feather banner or one other kind of sign, but you can't have eighteen signs on your oh, she's back. Um on your property, right, Denise? Yeah. We're not we I don't think we've begun enforcing this at all. And I know our co our code guys are are or slammed,
but I don't even think this was on their radar, so
Yes, so I and I apologize. I was having a cough attacked in East Mandas Planning and Development. So yes, that's accurate. You can have one feather banner, um, banner on your on your property per each location having a certificate of occupancy. So in other words, so if you have a a multi occupancy parcel. And there is a massage establishment here and a nail establishment there and there it's not the same place that does massage and nails. each location can have a b a feather banner, but not seven, ten, not more than one.
Okay, so I just wanted to um wait, don't leave yet. And I know that's more work for code enforcement, which is why I'm advocating for more code enforcement officers. Okay, uh we passed the used car lot and uh the new car sales and used car sales. Yeah. that r requires some work by code, right? Um they only can have so many cars in your parking lot based on what
your site of plan approvals were. when your when your business started. And we have many in my district And it's common on forty one. Where they put in 50 million cars in five parking spaces, and that is not legal. Same with boats. Same with b I got it d going down here on m on Massachusetts where we have a boat repair place. And Th they have way too many boats for what's allowed in
that parking lot. Way too many, right here down the street in our old fire fire department. Um half the time they're parked out on the street and and in the right-of-way. But That is going to be a responsibility of code. And they are very busy. So another again Uh Plea that I think we need more code officers. All right, now we're going to go on to zoning encode. Um, can we put some pictures up?
Um let's see, start with Jamanji, Jingali and
Um this th this this issue's been going on for a while. Um this this is at Pareen Ranch Road. And Rowan? And frankly I saw it starting to happen and I I didn't know what what was going on. They these guys did, I believe, start with a silk fence. I never saw a permit box, but they at least did put a silk fence up. Are there any other pictures of that? So it's the entrance of Nature's Hideaway over there in And um I
don't know if this is Alphers or what what did you call this area? Keep going. Um So and that's Praine Ranch and uh Seven Springs. I don't keep going. I have So it turns out that this company came in. And um by the way that chain link fence is is this is before that chain link fence was there. So this company came in We thought it was Duke there at first, but it's not. It's a subcontractor
of Duke. They they clear cut and filled this whole piece of land without any permission. No site plan. Uh frankly it's not even allowed in this in this little neighborhood commercial area. and we didn't catch it. And they were operating for over a year and we didn't catch it. Um so I started asking questions and um Mr. Administrator, do you remember where we are with with
And Denise, you looked up the zoning and all that, right? Or am I putting you on the spot on that one?
No, you no no. Just um you can answer questions and I can look up the zoning. Because I wasn't I didn't know we were gonna talk about this one. I thought we were gonna talk about the other parcel.
We're gonna start with this one, move on to the next one.
Yeah, actually I'm I'm in discussions with Duke. Actually there's landscaping on order and there's some other things going on with Jingali but Yeah, we're we're familiar in trying to work with with them to make this a better use and not to repeat what what we've seen out here.
And and this is an example of what I was talking about where we're allowing chain chain link fence and bob wire in front of a neighborhood. I mean an arterial pl I mean that that is Would you want that in front d I mean, in front of Bexley?
No ma'am.
I don't Uh it's are there any more pictures of that? Well, I would rather see the pictures on of the inside of what that looks like. And they had construction debris. alongside the road of the keep going? I'm hoping that you see it Well, you're not getting okay, that's the entrance. Look at that. And that got much higher than that. Um and that what you're seeing behind that fence, that's the entrance into nature's highway. Um okay, so Um can you go to the one on Trouble Creek?
Oh th they they've been cleaning that up. That's better than what it used to be.
So uh on Trouble Creek, I and I'm s sad that I didn't jump on it when I first saw it being cleared. And someone told me that the The giveaway is when you don't see a silt fence. This is some beautiful property on Trouble Creek west of nineteen. And And you can see this was this yesterday? So We got we got a call in from someone who's in the development industry said, What is going on on Trouble Creek Road? Substandard
Road. Um we're actually just met with I just met with Councilman Peters. We're trying to put a Greenway trail thing in here and buy some property and City of Newport Ritchie has some property in here. We're trying to combine it and make a trail out to 19. Keep going. This guy's not going to be able to do Just clearing away, no permit. And um Denise, can you give us the history of what's happened so far on this property from your
Absolutely. Um I'm not sure how far back you want to go, but just suffice it to say this parcel is zoned MF one. There's two of them. Two parcels side by side. Yeah, there's the western parcel and the eastern parcel. It's zone MF one. It was zoned MF one in nineteen eighty five. Uh just
the rooftop there?
It's right next to
houses.
Okay. Just recently in 2022 in December, um they submitted for a timing and phasing and a substandard road review application. Because it appears that they want to apply for a special exception application for a temporary. yard to store um they're saying that their emergency let me see what their application says They're vehicles related to utility, a utility company. Temporary
development of vacant land to serve as a staging area for emergency use electrical utility service trucks. That's what they're going to be applying for or they have submitted actually a special exception just very recently um and it's under review because the s substandard road and the uh timing and phasing applications still haven't come back. They have to get a an answer from that in order to move forward with the special exception application.
Filled in wetlands. Took down oak trees. All I mean the trees this was so you can can you tell from the area around it how beautifully wooded this it was this was. There's no way we would give a special exception on Trouble Creek for um trucks like this because it is a It is a very narrow road with a very dangerous ditch on the side. And and there's houses all there's uh this borders houses. So I'm just
Beside myself that we didn't catch this.
Yeah, but we did issue a stop work order yesterday on it and so we're we're sorting through.
But this was going on for two weeks and we missed it. Okay, across the street with the um
Can we hang on the side for a second? So We've got a tree mitigation ordinance. Right? How many trees did they take down?
By avoid in to avoid all that. This would be part of the investigatory process that we'll have to go through as we figure it out. But like I said, the the stop work order has been issued and we'll we'll sort through things at that time. Okay, so you pay something
else. You know, uh it would be very interesting to see what our penalty would be as far as that. Twenty thousand dollars. $25,000. That's nothing. When you clear, I think it's like five acres or six acres when you add the two. As far if you're And and supposedly this is a temporary use for this user coming in. Did they say for one year they're gonna be there? They said for one year. Okay, so and that this is kinda goes to David. Um we I think we fixed we fixed it where a landowner clears their
land and then comes in for rezoning to something. And um this
Well this wouldn't apply anyway, because this is not this is this is multifamily. The issue that David fixed was ag land
Does that count?
The one where they went out is multifamily.
Okay. I saw something that said A C. That's the one I showed you that said A C.
All right, so then I think we need to fix that. Because
I think this is already a violation of your code.
I know, but a twenty-five thousand dollar tree mitigation hit is nothing is not gonna stop this kind of action.
You just made that number up.
I did. Needs to have like
a.
And needs to have four zeros after that.
We're
doing two and a half million dollars and we'll get someone's attention. Yeah.
And what it is will be what it is.
Well, I think it'll be eye-opening for us. Let's see what the what the slap is for that.
Huh?
In the fill ordinance.
Yeah, and filling in the wetland? And lots of things.
Was this a class one or class two?
It's a class two, according to the
And they had they didn't have SWIPMUD permits either, I told you.
I per particular specifically didn't check that. But I would imagine that's part of the investigation.
Okay. Okay, cross the street. The boat and tire, whatever, or truck or
okay. So I I think what you may want me to talk about that is that um several several years ago they requested a non conforming use determination from a a former zoning administrator. Uh Mr. Lands, who some of us know. More than a few years ago. It was in 2000, okay? Twenty-two years ago or twenty-three years ago. So um and they were issued a non-conforming use determination basically stating that they can have the use as a contractor's
office and storage of his vehicles and equipment and um RVs and books. However, that doesn't mean that you don't have to meet all the other parts of the land development code. Plus, it also doesn't mean that if there's new activity, so that if there's movement of dirt and there's new things that are happening on the property, they they would still be subject to a site development permit. So Um that's what I wanted to comment on that one.
So cause we sent code out to that to this business that's across the street from this. And they said, Oh, it's already Uh
do you remember what a nonconforming use, yeah.
Yeah.
But just because they have a non conforming had a non-conforming use doesn't mean that they don't have to come in and get a site plan to start a new business or to to fill in. They have clear cut there's activity happening on this property as well. They have clear cut and filled in. This this place on Trouble Creek across the street from here. So somewhere we have a disconnect. betwe you know, in what are laws are and I just think as we look at code There
needs to be a zoning person or someone with the knowledge, more knowledge. than what we have now. Over there helping. Because mistakes are being made all over. And and it's not their fault. It's just they don't have that knowledge. Um so And now I have all these cleared areas in my district that You know, don't have permission. W we we we've caught another big one on fifty four, we're gonna bring that to you next time. Um that's been operating for a couple of years. Okay. Uh
was there any other ones that we wanted to go over?
No,
I think that uh that one that on 54, that's still. Okay, I got one more thing. Uh fire pit. And I think we have some fire people here. So um I have uh had a constituent that um lives in Foxwood or or some one of those nice neighborhoods in in Trinity. Champions Club. Yeah, Champions Club. She lives in Champions Club. And um Her neighborhood. built this very nice fire pit. I built one something like that for Trey for his birthday. Um The problem
is This lady lives this is Very close t see the lady on the left with the screen in pool? See, they moved it away from their screen. And they put it close to her screen. And she has asthma. And so when they light the fire, she can't go outside to sit on her porch where they have they like to sit over there on that corner. That's one issue. But the other one is is that um You know, a fire that fire next to a pool screen that that isn't always a good idea.
You can you can um burn that pool screen and they and they don't like they don't like the smoke they have to close their doors. Um so it's it's an interesting issue. I w Our ordinance says um Yeah, can you go over what our our rules are and Apparently um different counties had different rules and just wanted to see if you guys wanted to look at this. Thank you, ma'am.
Good afternoon, Commissioner, Mr. Chairman Mariano Justin from Fire Marshal of Pasco County and the section that we adopt locally in our ordinance is under Forty five. Uh section seventy four. And there's two areas that follow them when we respond to these types of investigations. There's open burning allowed Which uh adopts Ford Administrative Code and State State, and then there's recreational burning. This will be deemed and fall under the purview under
recreational burning. And if I can recite that, I believe it was subsection ten. Um where nothing in this chapter shall be construed, prohibit the open burning of vegetative debris or untreated wood, and a campfire in a ceremonial bonfire, outdoor fireplace, or other contained outdoor heating or cooking device, or On cold days for the purposes of warming outdoor workers. Um when our crews respond to these incidents um They determine whether it's open burning
to clear vegetative debris that was generated on that property, um if it exceeds the required amounts under statute, Ford Administrative Code, and Local Ordinance. uh they can petition Department of Forestry for a permit issuance Um anything less than that. they have to conform to setback requirements where I believe with your aid, Commissioner Starkey, um they were questioning the twenty-five feet of a structure. So it's twenty-five feet of a structure w heavily wooded area. Um
and that's all under the open burning requirements. This was deemed and interpreted by our field crews as recreational. It's attended. They're out there doing fellowship, visiting with family, neighbors. Um So under that there there is no regulation which speaks to setback requirements. and the recreational aspect.
So So
this is uh this isn't propane, this is a natural gas. No, it's it's wood burning. Wood wood burning. It is, yes sir. And so what you tell you. Yeah. So what you tell me there's no setbacks for this? Required no sir. That's correct. No required
setbacks by the law. As it's deemed
in ours in ours.
Recreational open burning in ours locally as well as state statute and Florida Administrative Code. This would conform to what's deemed and identified as recreational. Commissioner Weightman.
Thank you.
I appreciate thank you, Commissioner Starkey, for everything you've you've brought up.
Bye. With caution. It's just a little bit more than a little bit.
This is a nice fire pit. They're using looks like one of these new smokeless wood burning fire pits is placed in the middle.
No, no, there's smoke.
It well there's gonna where there's smoke there's fire. I I
regulating and and micromanaging and
I think it's a slippery s slope. I don't I don't want Tim Pete on people's Uh You know, have a have a nice fire pit in their backyard. I don't know what the answer is. I'd just be caution with More regulation, more red tape, more things to for our folks to police. And the same thing goes with Listening through all the the the code enforcement aspects that We've discussed today. You know these businesses
Either they blatantly broke the rules or some of our rules could be so bureaucratic and difficult that they're just gonna do what they need to do to get open. So I think whatever that the balance is of if we're gonna be looking at ordinances and regulation that we don't overburden a homeowner or overburden a business. We kind of you know, I I want these freedoms to have a fire in in my back yard within
Well I agree.
Why should they be able to put it near the other neighbors? Why don't they have to put it
on the time please? So in i because it's on their their their their property Uh you know, one neighbor telling another neighbor what to the per I I just bring up these concerns. I'm not making an opinion, just just things again for us to to think about, you know. Somebody tell me what I can and can't do with with my property, I kinda get a little ruffled up there like anybody should. You work hard for your property. And they spent money. That's a nice this is nice. They have a pool pump right here, so if they're releasing water from their pool, that may have
come into a factor of Well, I don't want to wash out my fire pit if they have to release water potentially. Like it's
Uh to a certain extent the uh the the counties place, so to speak. So anyway that's just Um For me if we're making any decisions I I will be very conservative and cautious in making these types of decisions. But I think these are great things to think about. So thank you.
You don't you don't think about that, but some in our research we found that some counties Restrict how close you can put a fire pit next to your neighbor's screened in pool porch. I think it's twenty five feet. And maybe that's the distance a number will go out before it gets there. In small house
you don't have twenty five feet.
Well yeah. If
I may, Commissioner O as as far as uh fire brands, uh it depends on the type of material that's generating those, as far as when they would completely extinguish, self extinguish. Um with respect to other ordinances, I the only thing that we were able to find in our due diligence was a position on no open burning allowed, um such as the City of Dade City. They have local ordinance where there's No tolerance for any opening burning.
No no backyard fire pits in Dade City? That that's correct.
Um the the other Within the city limits.
Um the the the other city limits. That's
with the unincome unincorporated parties.
had to defend and and and offer a lot of educational opportunity to is the fact that I believe it was around the late 2008 when there was a revision and amendment to the Florida Administrative Code pertaining to this where they took nuisance smoke. Okay. out of the d defined for complaint. So prior to that, if somebody deemed it nuisance and they they called and complained because they have adma asthma, they're closing windows, they they can't step outside, that made it in fact unlawful. They have since
changed that language to where they speak to the moisture content. But th again, this is only in the open burning, not recreational. Yeah. Um so that that's been a position where we had to go out and defend where just because it's a nuisance we cannot enforce any action as far as extinguishment or ordinance violation.
I you know it's a it's a toughie in my opinion because A lot of people wanna have these in your backyard. Uh I think the more neighborly thing for these people that now they're like bitter enemies these two. It's that they could have placed it closer to their own property and not put it on the as close as they could to the neighbor's property, but Um А вот ін. You can't have fugitive smoke. You we went to some uh a friend of my friend Gunther's uh
to their house and they had a pizza oven outside it up Like so that it can't go into the neighbor's property. Yeah, that's the rules over there. So we are Nowhere near that and I'm not suggesting that. I d but I wanted to see what your pleasure was. Um I told this homeowner I would bring it up. Um you know I Yeah,
I can I can understand what you're getting at, but Somewhere some of these rules that we have gotta stop and let people live their life. So
yeah.
These things are very common. In a lot of places. And uh Uh Of course I've never lived next to someone that had asthma or something like that. I I can be understanding of that and if they know this neighbor very well they can work that out where that neighbor knows they're gonna do that a certain night and and work it out together. So I think those are the right ways to do things like this, uh, rather than put it in some ordinance or something that says no.
I
guess
that's why you get tired of being told no to everything.
I guess if the embers burn the numb neighbors fire their screen, which I have done to my own, but that's on me. Also burnt our trampoline. Um Uh that's a civil action between the two?
Yes, ma'am. And and there is state statute that speaks to um any damages occurred of somebody willfully and intentionally setting fire to anything that they are responsible for that. Okay.
I'll give you a little idea. Beacon Woods Civic Association actually had a rule in place that actually didn't allow those. So that's how that community dealt with it. This one here I guess didn't think about it. So
and we we do have uh Mr. Chairman, we do have locally several HOAs that have taken that position and invoked their right to institute that throughout their their organizate local organization.
So
Which again we we don't have a position to enforce.
Right. So that may be I don't know if they could even change at this point, but That's something they can talk talk about locally with them? Anything else? Nope. Okay.
Uh well I ho I look forward to seeing you in Washington. And um And maybe we that's not a sunshine thing we can talk about.
Visits and is Ralph going?
No. But Sorry, you can set appointments up for us.
Yeah, and our federal lobbyist is working on something.
Sorry to