AP-10 Crossways MPUD rezoning

4:30:15Next item is AP ten and that will be presented by Jacob Gates.

4:30:39Good evening.

4:30:43My name is Jacob Gates. I'm with Pasco County Pasco County Planning and Development, current planning, the MPUD team. I'm going to be presenting Crossways MPD Master Planning United Development. Next slide.

4:31:00This is item eight through ten. And a quick overview. The proposal is a zoning amendment from AC Agricultural Zoning District to MPUD Master Plan Union Development District. Future land use is ROR for the small sliver parcel to the north that you'll see in a second. The other two parcels are Res 6 for the future land use. No associated comprehensive plan amendment is proposed with this project. They're trying to stick

4:31:30within the allotted allowment units for that area, the allotted density. The purpose is of course to allow a maximum of up to 176 residential units, which would be a mixture of single-family detached and eight and attached dwelling units on 29 and a half acres. It's approximately northeast of U.S. Highway 98 and west of Old Lakeland Highway. Next slide, please.

4:32:02That's the approximate location, just southeast of us.

4:32:09And this is a context map I drew up for our benefit. You can see the Dade City border to the northwest there. You can see this the green line next to the purple outline of the proposed project area. That is the CSX Railroad. Uh if you have questions on the right-of-way. That is one reason why I marked it so you could have a clear designation of where it goes along the project. The nearest MPUD is Triple J MPUD

4:32:39to the west, southwest. And if you follow US Highway 98 to the south, you'll reach the Polk County line in about 10 miles.

4:32:50Well thank you for the context map. Over a year ago I asked if they would start putting this in our packet and it's yet to happen, but at least now I can see where this is in relation to the rest of the world. Oh absolutely. Maybe someday it'll get in the packet so the Planning Commission can make an educated decision.

4:33:07Completely understand. Also for context, uh Old Lakeland Highway is I has another name of County Road 35A. They're the same road. It's just another term for the road. Uh next slide, please. That's a location map oriented north. We can see it's undeveloped, mainly with cow pasture. The spot of land right there is a cow pond, designated as a category three wetland. And

4:33:39the entire for context for stormwater, the entire proposed area is X except for that category three wetland right there. Which amounts to about point seven six acres.

4:33:55Next slide, please. That's the current zoning district. All three parcels are designated as AC Agricultural. Next slide, please.

4:34:07That's the future land use. As you can see, the two largest parcels are Res 6 and the northernmost parcel, the sliver parcel that's less than an acre, is ROR. Next slide please.

4:34:24This is the master plan, not as it's read, but oriented north just so you can get an idea of what it looks like facing north, so it it makes more sense visually. Uh the next slide.

4:34:39is the master plan as you would read it.

4:34:44And if I have physical copies of the conditions of approval and the master plan if you want to get a closer look at it, as well as for the benefit of the individuals here to speak on the aisle, if they're interested. And I have hidden slides in case you have any questions. I'm anticipating some questions on a couple of things, but just in case it looks good now. Next slide please.

4:35:12Their recommendation is for approval or to recommend approval with conditions that we're accounting commissioners.

4:35:19Okay.

4:35:21Thank you, Jacob. Have

4:35:23any questions? So

4:35:26I've got some questions. Um sir. I guess start out, who's the utility provider?

4:35:32The utility provider uh we're talking about water and sewer. Pasco County and Pasco County.

4:35:39Okay. I I didn't see did did the M P U D checklist or the requirements for the M PUD maps, did that change?

4:35:51The large block of notes on the right hand side is in the large block of notes. I believe it's on note twenty-three or twenty-four.

4:35:59There there's a multitude of things that are on that that I normally see on M PUD map that are not in Included here. Um

4:36:07Uh and normally in the agenda memo we we get some kind of confirmation from other departments. I mean did the utility department review this submittal? Is there capacity?

4:36:16Yes. Yes they have. Okay. I'm assuming

4:36:19fire

4:36:20comments and everybody? Yes, sir. Their comments were incorporated to the conditions of approval.

4:36:25Okay. But there's no statement in any of the MPUD applications that were put forward before us today whether or not there's sufficient utility capacity for any of them.

4:36:34Correct.

4:36:38Um okay now I I guess my I'm gonna keep going here. My next question is can can you tell me a little bit about Triple J? Because here's my issue. I look at this map and I see extremely rural part of East Pasco County. Right. And then I see everybody's favorite new I'm gonna put forty foot lots everywhere and I'm not gonna worry anything about architectural. I'm i it Uh i i it's really i are there forty foot lots in Triple J?

4:37:02Uh to my knowledge, I don't think there are.

4:37:05Okay. I I know the the the land use is RED six and they they've they made sure that they maxed out and they're asking for six units per acre exactly. Um I I I I completely understand, but just because the land use is res six doesn't mean they're entitled to six units per acre. Right. I mean some of this is in context of what's what's in the area and I just I I'm struggling mightily with this one with figuring out how this fits in the area.

4:37:31So one example they've They've they've been accommodating because they understand that the appetite for forty foot wide lots has uh expired throughout the county. Uh they've incorporated a lot of the things that were introduced in PM twenty six that were not necessarily bound by the because the first round of review was completed before August eighth of twenty twenty-three, which thankfully means they're no longer like they're not bound by PM twenty six, they're bound

4:38:01by PM ten. But in a gesture of good faith they've incorporated a lot of the architectural requirements in townhouses. If you go into the land use section, I believe

4:38:13Land use section and go to COA forty one you can see all the architectural requirements listed. Um they were very accommodating in terms of setbacks. Uh there was concern leading up to the Plan Commission meeting today that the rear setbacks and side setbacks in particular for townhomes were far too small. Um So they agreed to very wide setbacks. They went from 10 feet at

4:38:43the corner for the townhome buildings to 25 feet at the corner. They went from five feet at the rear for single-family residential detached to 10 feet universally throughout the project. They're interested in maxing out what they can do with the the residential density. But they're also willing to compromise and meet a lot of the requirements in terms of PM26 and trying to

4:39:14compromise and come to a decision that fits the direction of the county.

4:39:20So I'm not sure that the Planning Commission ever got a presentation on PM twenty six. Terry, did you did we? So I don't even know if they know what you're talking about. So

4:39:33P th for the most part the one thing that this MPED is that is not doing the PM twenty six basically outlawed was forty foot lots. Yes. P M twenty six basically said you cannot have forty foot lots anymore. The smallest lot size you can have is well, unless it's in a TND. T and D or Over age restrict age restricted. There's a few exceptions, but for the most Yeah. PM26 outlawed 40-foot lots and set standard for the smallest size I

4:40:03think you can have now is 45 feet under PM26. Which this project predated the imposition of PM twenty six and when PM twenty six went to the board, the board specifically allowed projects that had already received their first round of comments prior to PM twenty six to proceed. So that's what Jacob is talking about. No, I'm not saying that you it obligates you or the board to approve 45 bots. I'm just that That was the discussion when PM twenty six went

4:40:33to the board.

4:40:37Okay.

4:40:37But it also imposes other architectural and landscaping requirements for smaller lot sizes, which Jacob is correct, do appear to be in sick conditions of approval. But the big difference is that you can't get forty foot lots anymore for projects that are subject to PM twenty six.

4:40:58Correct. And this, even though it was subject to and bound by PM 10, they still agreed to incorporate PM26.

4:41:07Except for the restriction on forty

4:41:09foot lots.

4:41:10Forty foot lots,

4:41:11yes. Yes. As the compromise there.

4:41:20Uh that that's all I have, right?

4:41:24Okay, any other questions from up here? Yeah, present.

4:41:36Thank you. Shelley Johnson, [address removed]. I have been sworn. Um we're in agreement with all of the conditions and I'll be happy to answer any questions. I know there is somebody here, um, Mr. Hall, who lives on the south side of this development, um, that had some questions, so I'll just reserve time to address whatever his concerns are.

4:41:53Okay, great.

4:41:56All right. Mr. Hall?

4:42:00I'm Charles Hall, live at [address removed]. I have been sworn in. And I don't do this for a living, so If I fall on the floor, just g give me a minute.

4:42:15We'll pick you up.

4:42:16About three years ago my wife and I owned the property this development is going into and uh It was time for us to do something different. I'm elderly now and uh we wanted to sell two or three ten to fifteen acre plots of land to people that would put a house in, a barn, maybe have a couple of horses, maybe some goats, whatever. We went over to Newport Ritchie to just trying

4:42:47to do our background work and we were told we can sell the pieces of property. One person can build a house, the others cannot. according to county rules, regulations, planning, whatever it was. That did not make me happy. We've accepted that. We Went ahead and sold the twenty-nine acres and it is coming down

4:43:17to the development now. My wife and I have made major concession. on this land because of the county. We would ask for a couple of concessions now and we also have other questions pertaining to the property, to the development.

4:43:37Can I can I can I ask you a question before you go any further? Yes. What I what do you mean by you could only build one house on this, twenty nine acres? What do you mean?

4:43:46I can

4:43:47tell you.

4:43:48It's a it's a parent parcel and he gets one legal split. There's nothing that stops him from selling three parcels, but they'll have no building entitlement. So his answer is he has to file a subdiv create.

4:44:05Did they tell you that? You could have filed.

4:44:09One person can build a house, the other one could not because it would be considered a subdivision. D did they tell you you should

4:44:15get an engineer and a surveyor involved in

4:44:17the

4:44:17house?

4:44:18Yes, they said there is a way around it. We it would take a lot of time and a lot of money. I'm old, I don't have a lot of time, I've got less money.

4:44:29Okay.

4:44:29So

4:44:30I just want to make sure you got all our information, that's all.

4:44:33Okay.

4:44:34Go ahead.

4:44:35Um Are is in the plan is there a wall around the the development?

4:44:44Well we we don't have the answer to that, but we'll get the answer to it.

4:44:47Okay, we would request a concrete block wall around the perimeter of the development. Yeah. Yeah, we've made the major concession. And we just asked the people in power to make a couple of smaller concessions for us. Okay. At the south end of what I call the panhandle on their property now. I request uh A twenty-foot easement because we have pr uh family property on the

4:45:17other side there and that would still allow me access for us to go back and forth and and still get to stay on our property with the exception of the the easement. Sir,

4:45:31that seems like mostly a private issue. Is there a reason you didn't when you sold the property you didn't Feen and easement.

4:45:38How stupid.

4:45:40Okay. Well

4:45:43I'm not gonna agree or disagree with that statement, but but um I don't know that we can solve that problem. I mean buffering is an issue that we that the Planning Commission can deal with. Alumni and tertiary while you need a wall around the entire property if you if your property's to the south.

4:46:02We're at the south end of the proposed development. There is the panhandle that comes down to our neighbor's property. To the west

4:46:15Uh

4:46:15then I

4:46:16I guess my question is why if your property is only to the south, why are you asking for a wall around the entire thing?

4:46:25My sister may want to. a wall on on her part.

4:46:29Oh she lives to the north?

4:46:31She lives to the west.

4:46:33There's a

4:46:33church to the north.

4:46:35Okay. Okay, anyway, continue.

4:46:39I'm just saying I don't think we can solve your easement issue. That's a private Okay.

4:46:49I would really appreciate the easement. If not, it's not going to be the end of the world. Well Their attorney's right there, you can make

4:46:58that request of her. Excuse me. You can make the request of the applicant if they're willing to give you an easement, but I don't think you should ask the planning commission to force them to give you an easement.

4:47:08Okay. And also when we're while we're talking about that Pan Helm depart, I talked with a person in the planning uh department and they said That Panhandle is going in the plans they are going to put a park. When I heard her when she said park, I heard her say playground. And uh more more reason for the block wall. Yeah. Because you know kids, they don't necessarily follow rules

4:47:39and everything.

4:47:42So if it is going to be a especially a playground. even more cause to have the the wall up there.

4:47:54And if the If the ball does go up. Who's responsible for maintaining the wall? You know, you see you go places to developments and they have the plastic fences, strong winds blow them down and they're down for the next two, three, four years. Who's responsible for maintaining it?

4:48:21Well and to clarify, sir, are you asking for a wall or a fence or s some other kind of barrier?

4:48:26I'm asking for a wall.

4:48:31The y you said they will get an eight foot wall.

4:48:36Yeah, the other y he's talking about the former people, yeah. Okay. Go g go ahead and continue.

4:48:43Um Where's the water going to come from?

4:48:49There is no water there now. There's no sewage there now.

4:48:56The county has a large water tank. Mm um very close to the property.

4:49:04Mm-hmm.

4:49:05If the water comes from there, I believe Angelo Ifrades dunk, a garbage dump was denied because of the possibility of causing sinkholes. I know there have been two sinkholes in the area in the last thirty years, twenty years.

4:49:28And so I have a concern about where the water's coming from.

4:49:32Okay.

4:49:35And the concern about the sewage. Where's

4:49:39They there will not be septic tanks on those small lots of course. Will they have their own private sewage disposal? Uh

4:49:47we'll get clarification on the utility issue. That's why I asked the question whenever they were presenting and I I'll get clarification further. Okay. And they come back up.

4:49:55And uh the added traffic, the 176 units, that could be four or five hundred vehicles a day.

4:50:03Uh What how what how's that going to impact my ingress and egress from our our house?

4:50:12Okay.

4:50:13Uh uh County Road 35A. It is heavily traveled already. And you add all that extra traffic to it. It's just it's going to be a nightmare.

4:50:28Do we?

4:50:29And are there plans to make any improvements to County Road 35A?

4:50:36Isaac again we'll get these qu uh questions answered for you when they come back up.

4:50:40Okay.

4:50:43Um so what uh why do next?

4:50:47If we're done with

4:50:48the

4:50:48comments you would sit down and listen. Yeah, just ta you can sit down and we'll see who else has a comment that wants to Will I get

4:50:55answers to my requests?

4:50:57I'm gonna do my best to get answers for you.

4:51:00Okay.

4:51:01Okay.

4:51:01Thank you.

4:51:03If I can't, you're gonna whack the guy next to me. That way.

4:51:11Directly next to you.

4:51:12Yeah. Yeah.

4:51:16Who who else would like to speak?

4:51:21You got thirty seconds.

4:51:26How about four minutes? I don't think I could stand up here for four minutes. Anyways Nancy Hazewood, [address removed]. I congratulate these people. They were trained to do the right thing. Wow. I'm I'm I don't think I've ever seen that before. And yet the county kinda didn't work with them. So The county is encouraging spra. When are we gonna turn will I ever see them turn

4:51:56the regulations around to encourage something like this instead of the the other things I've been seeing today. Thank you.

4:52:09Okay. You came pretty close.

4:52:14Anyone else?

4:52:20Okay. If there's no one else, would the applicant like to come back up and respond?

4:52:25Thank you, Shelley Chairman Mariano. We have

4:52:26a few requests for information. One is utilities and one is about a wall and one is traffic.

4:52:31Yes. So traffic um the access is off Old Lakeland Highway. Um our traffic studies show that there was no impact in terms of levels of service. It's gonna be acceptable levels of service. They haven't done the access management study, that'll be done at construction plan, but um I think you can see on the conceptual at least that there is the emergency act. And

4:52:51what about Old Lakeland Highway?

4:52:53Yeah, yeah. Um so to I'm

4:52:56talking about old

4:52:56Lakeland

4:52:57Highway or are you talking about ninety eight?

4:52:59Old Lakeland Highway.

4:53:01You saying it's not gonna impact that at all?

4:53:04Yeah, the level of service is gonna be fine. Um fifty percent of the trips I think are gonna go south and some fifty percent are gonna go east is what our traffic engineer saw. it wasn't having any impact. So but as far as access management that hasn't been looked at yet. That'll be looked at at construction plan and preliminary plan.

4:53:20And that Shelley, just for their clarification, that will outline if there's requirements for any turn lane modifications or anything. That's what I meant. Just so they can understand.

4:53:29Yeah, yeah. That won that will determine whether there needs to be any turn lanes into the site and those kinds of things. So but it right now it looks like the level of service is is good.

4:53:36And there's no planned access to Mesic?

4:53:39No, it's all coming off the main road. Um the questions on the so if you look at that little stub-out finger on the plan, that is where the park is going to go. And I but my understanding is Mr. Hall's property is adjacent to that. It's those two pro parcels right there. So my client would be happy to put a fence along that whole southern boundary. They'd be happy to put a wall around the southern boundary. Um or they could you know, fence the whole property. I don't think they're gonna need to or

4:54:09do they are they willing to at this point to wall the whole property. There's a church to the north And then the part the parcel to the west is vacant. It's pasture land. My understanding that the lady that owns that lives off on US lives lives um off property on US 98, off of US 98, so she's not there. Um, but they'll be happy to put a wall on that southern boundary. My concern is if he wants an easement to access his sister's property on the other side of our property, If we fencer or wallet, he's not gonna be able to get across our park. So if we don't put a fence

4:54:39or wall he could cross the park to get to his sister's property 'cause that's gonna be a park. Unless you put

4:54:44a gate in the wall.

4:54:46Yeah, put a gate in it. Um, you know. But they'll be happy to, you know, wall the south end if that's what he wants or put up a nice fence. Um I don't think there's an issue with that. So

4:54:55Shirley, are there landscape buffer requirements?

4:54:58Yeah, it's um ten foot I believe around the whole property is the landscape requirement. Um the perimeter's ten foot on this. O well of course on the road it's twenty I believe, but yeah. There'll be a landscape over so there'll be buffering um and then if he would like a wall down there we'll be happy to put one in or a nice fence, you know. Um To address his concerns and I guess, you know, I can talk to my clients, not here obviously today, but I can talk to them about putting in a gate or something if he decides he does want to wall or a fence.

4:55:28Um my understanding is there is water and sewer available according to my um engineers. Um he's I guess there's a there's several developments that are coming online. Um west that's gonna bring utilities closer to this development so that we'll be able to connect in. So there is going to be utilities has looked at it um and the condition that they've put in our approval is the standard condition that you know we'll

4:55:54can we talk about that?

4:55:55Sure.

4:55:57'Cause

4:56:01And the utility plant shall show minimum of the following. Utility condition in there that requires

4:56:06us to

4:56:08what's it say after that? Main potable water lines. Uhhuh. And sewage treatment facility locations, including discussion of proposed method of treatment and feasibility of non potable water system for irrigation. So

4:56:23They're gonna be coming from the west and I'll be real just to let you know too, a lot of the the development beacon act or the client actually owns them and is putting in that infrastructure so that's how they know that we're gonna they're gonna have access to the

4:56:38How do we No vent.

4:56:42How do we know that? I think that was to Jamie's point. That's not part of the packet and it and I know you have nothing to do with any of the other MPUDs that were discussed here today. But there is not one word in any of those MPUDs as to whether or not there's adequate sewer and water capacity for these developments.

4:57:04I think that's John because you talked about last time you talked about the exceeded capacity.

4:57:21And so that's not done.

4:57:25And I mean I w I'm just tell you, I'm I'm getting a lot of feedback. I talk to people on We talk about things that this committee looks at, this commission looks at. The first thing I get asked is where's the water coming from? Right. Where's the water going?

4:57:42Well, I I a hundred percent agree with you. That my my only comment would be If they don't have it, they're not gonna be able to develop a darn thing there.

4:57:53Well I would agree if uh I would agree my own

4:57:58But it would be helpful if we can have that information. Right. And in this staff report, and I'm sorry, maybe it's the wrong there's not even most of the times there's a zoning map shows us the adjacent zoning. There's a flu there's not even that in this staff report. How are we supposed to make an educated decision? When I got basically an aerial photograph Uh Very sketchy MPUD plan that

4:58:29a list of conditions. This this this isn't ready. And you know

4:58:36We got on Friday night we get an email that says, Here's your planning commission agenda. Oh, and by the way. There's five other items you're going to get later in the week.

4:58:48We're all volunteers up here. And we're up here trying to make the best decisions we can make, but we need the information and we need it in a timely manner. I'm not saying you guys don't work hard, but Come on. How are we supposed to make a decision? And the public is starting to hold us responsible.

4:59:07They've always held us responsible. I think they're doing it a little bit more vocally than locally right now. So can

4:59:14also there needs to be a deadline and when the deadline's exceeded, sorry, you go to the next planning commission. And I think that's an issue.

4:59:27To your point, Mr. Gray, I do agree that ultimately if there's no water in sewer, they're not going to be able to develop.

4:59:34I d I don't think we heard an answer though. Can staff Jamie asked this question before about the entonomics in Triple J or what what is can somebody Tell us what actually is entitled and

4:59:45Of course, happy to do so. Um so n first uh first and foremost I will tell you that Triple J is an expired MPUD. So it's been expired. It they had to have a an approved uh site plan within five years of the approval and that did not happen. Uh but what was applied for in uh and approved in Triple J, of course, unentitled property, uh were 55 by 125 lots and 65 by 125 lots. Total single family

5:00:16detached total unit count was six hundred and thirty-six on two hundred and forty-three acres.

5:00:24No,

5:00:24triple J is to the Um if you we look at the context map. It's to the south and the west of this property.

5:00:32Well is is Triple J one of the drivers for getting utilities to this location?

5:00:38Is that

5:00:39now?

5:00:42I am looking at the zoning map but I don't see I mean outside of that I see a lot of ag and some commercial and the like I just don't see a lot of major development that's

5:00:54We do have someone from utilities on on the call who might may be able to answer questions, Mr. Govman.

5:01:05When it's checked on the record, I have this one. Yeah, we I was trying to raise my hand uh a while ago when when utilities came up. Very frustrating, but Anyway. So the developer will have to extend water off site. We we don't know if there's capacity. That that'll all have to be determined in design. They're gonna have to do A fire hydrant flow test and the engineer's gonna have to model it. We're gonna have to s you know see those Um You know, the the master plans that everything works, the the line sizes

5:01:35are correct. So that's you know that's part of that's part of permitting. Just like stormwater.

5:01:45Mr Gutman, uh where where is the nearest point of connection? So uh the nearest

5:01:51water that I I see is on that on US ninety-eight.

5:01:56How far west of the site?

5:01:59I d I don't have access to the packet. I you know, I was told to be on this meeting Um you know, based on on John Moody's request.

5:02:08I didn't request you

5:02:10be here.

5:02:15It runs along US ninety eight, to your knowledge?

5:02:19Yes.

5:02:23Mark, just for the record I never requested you be here for any of these items, so I don't know where you got that from. But since you're here. Yeah.

5:02:34Glad you're

5:02:34here. I've been here since three.

5:02:38Yeah. How dare I ever question that there was zero uncommitted capacity plant? Now see I'm the troublemaker.

5:02:47Well. Well I think it's important to know where the line is.

5:02:51Yeah. It's only about a thousand feet from ninety eight to the south west corner of the property. And if you're going to the peninsula that's really only about five hundred feet.

5:03:06Mm-hmm.

5:03:07Yeah, my client I mean feels certain that, you know, we'll be able to connect and have service, so but obviously, you know, as they're stating it's stuff that They figure it out in terms of During construction plan. The specifics of where all that's gonna happen, but uh this time there's no concern from our perspective.

5:03:29S so I I have kind of a more overarching question. Um might be better directed to staff, I don't know, but you know, I'm I'm looking at the the future land use kind of the overarching map of future land use for this area and I think it was the same um struggle that that Jamie had that you know how does this fit in with all of this rural area that's in the in in the area and so I understand it you know that that particular spot is

5:03:59Res 6 and there's some adjacent partials of the Res 6. To the north it looks like it's ROR to the south ROR there's Some pockets of industrial light, which is to me makes sense because it's along a rail, right? So what's uh how d how does this fit into that future land use? Um you know why why do you guys feel like this is this is appropriate in terms of

5:04:28Nictoria Spito's planning and development. The comprehensive plan has identified this property as REST six, so that's what's appropriate. Um I w I will say that this is also in the east market area and the east market area generally has a more uh developed uh well let me say it like this. East market area has more of a or less of a rural character to it and more towards the town aspect. It has a focus

5:04:59that has development and redevelopment built into it. Um this is at uh Old Lakeland Highway in US 98. um with the RORs and some industrial to the north. It's not that far from Dade City. Um and I think also uh if I remember the uh the uh joint city county planning area, uh this area may be in it or just outside of there. It's it's very close

5:05:29to it. So the the uh the area is envisioned for more intensity than rural. The county has specifically designated rural areas to the north in in terms of northeast rural, but then there's also a uh rural neighborhood protection, uh neighborhood character, as well as a rural transition area, uh which are in other parts of the county, not lo not in this location.

5:05:56Terry, do you know the the Dade City looks like they've annexed the area fairly close. Do you know what densities they're developing at or what they're being approved at?

5:06:08Uh off the top of my head I I don't know. Uh in a recent annexation uh in this area on the south uh east side of Dade City, they had a similar density as to what the county had illustrated on in our comprehensive plan.

5:06:26I guess I guess res three or res six, whatever the equivalent was in Dade City's uh comprehensive plan.

5:06:33So I guess my question was more of if you can kind of delve into the the logic behind why the comp plan was written that way in that spot. You know, it just looks like it's a really high density area. And I don't know if it's to support the ROR to the north and south and uh you know maybe that's beyond what I should be asking you, but

5:06:51I think the his defense he wasn't here. Uh I you know, by the looks of the map there was a potential node that was identified at US 98 Old Lakeland Highway, although I think I think that's a bridge that goes over the rails there. And they they placed the ROR at the intensi uh where they believed there would be the most intensity, which would be at at the intersection of ninety eight Old Lakeland Highway. And then they started emanating and decreasing the intensities from there westward, first

5:07:21to res six, then to res three, and then on to res one.

5:07:25Well and there's some I L pieces as well. Yes.

5:07:31Okay.

5:07:39Any other questions?

5:07:41I was just gonna ask them so the AC zoning is one lot per ten acres. Tell me if I'm wrong. That's correct. And then so this from one to ten acres to six per one acre. That's where we're going.

5:07:53Yeah.

5:07:53Okay.

5:07:59I mean it's consistent with the comp plan, but it

5:08:03I'm just questioning the logic of the compliment in this particular spot.

5:08:06Yeah, I I'm right there with you actually and I th I think you know there are a few of us up here that share that sentiment because I I'm not I'm sure I see this project in this

5:08:17area. Would you come forward and state your name and address please?

5:08:23My name is Mona Dugger and I'm the sister. Um the water that is available near there sub um provides water all the way down to Centennial Elementary or to Centennial Um Division Subdivision. And um that's the only place that that goes and since they dug that way. That's when our SINCHO activity started coming about.

5:08:52Okay.

5:08:53So I don't think that they will provide and I think the church even requested water from there and I don't think they were allowed to get it from me. I I need wrong with that.

5:09:03Is that Dade City water or county water?

5:09:05It's county water I think.

5:09:07Okay.

5:09:08So I just wanted you to remember.

5:09:10Yeah, so that's a that's a big open question. What I the point I'm tr making is if they can't get adequate water and sewer they're not gonna be able to develop it no matter what. So

5:09:20Okay. Sir, if I could um I just wanted to address there was a question that was raised about you know what some of the developments that are being approved and annexed into the city are being approved at. Um I actually have done that one. It's crosswinds, it's about a half mile from the site and right now we're at res twelve on our land use density on it. Um I think it's going to develop out about nine units to the acre, but it's a mix. It's a mix of multifamily townhome. non-residential, the total unit count right now is 2,000. And we just had that

5:09:51annexed and approved by Dade City a year and a half ago.

5:09:54And where's this project?

5:09:55It's about a half a mile west on US ninety eight of this development.

5:10:00Where the gray is the blue?

5:10:01Yes, in that gray area. Yeah.

5:10:05Okay.

5:10:06But again we got approved for twelve units to the acre and I think it's it's looking like it'll develop out of about nine units to the acre, but it is a intense, heavy, mixed use development.

5:10:20And I c I could see the n the node, you know, I I could see that with the Old Lakeland Highway and the ninety eight, the spur there, but

5:10:34Okay, well okay, we've uh I think we've won this one out. What do you want to do?

5:10:46If we are gonna improve it, I definitely think there needs to be a wall. On the south end at least at the as a bare minimum. Well it would be what the s south

5:10:57I was wondering.

5:10:58I said pardon me. I'm sorry, Jacob, but I would

5:11:00say that Shelley and App gonna stick with it to the wall.

5:11:04Okay, thanks Jacob. Thank you.

5:11:06Well you all want to make a motion on the wall first, just to make this easier?

5:11:12Can somebody make a motion on the wall? So moved.

5:11:15So are we talking so is this a six foot wall? Six foot masonry wall?

5:11:20We're talking about an eight foot wall.

5:11:21Eight foot, you want to

5:11:23tell your clients' agreement. Along the southern boundary of the property.

5:11:27Just the southern boundary, also around the park.

5:11:29East side of

5:11:29the

5:11:30park. And the in the east side of the park.

5:11:33And so just so you know, if that gets built, that prevents your access across the park to your sister's property. Okay.

5:11:40Unless they put a gate in there. We can't force them to do that.

5:11:46And it's just the east side of the park, not the east and west side. Just the east side of the park.

5:11:51South side of the development and the east side of the park.

5:11:55Right. Who made that motion? I did. Okay.

5:12:01Uh Uh I'll I'll say second it if

5:12:02nobody take you. Yes or no?

5:12:11That'll be up to the developer. 'Cause we c I mean, there's nobody that lives there, so there's a nobody to buffer. They're gonna have to when they develop it, they're gonna have to put a buffer all the way around it. But it may landscape buffer. It m it it'll be a landscape buffer, it won't be a fence necessarily, it could be. You know, but they're gonna have to have a I think it's a ten foot buffer along that back and a twenty five foot buffer along the

5:12:36front. And that's just landscaping.

5:12:40Not just landscaping. And they could put a vents if they want privacy, but Um

5:12:48Please

5:12:48don't do anything for any more

5:12:51Can't do a thing. Well they can't, you know. They won't get built they can build the wall.

5:12:56All right. So can you

5:12:59let me ask a question, Mr. County Attorney. That's you. Um yes. Okay, so we're approving Some forties and fifties with this. Are they obligated to build forty and fifty? If they come in and decide, Well, I'll build half acre lots so that I can qualify for well in septic, are they allowed to do that with disapproval?

5:13:21Those lot sizes are the minimum lot sizes so they could build larger lots, yes. Yeah

5:13:32And this is where Mr. Gutman maybe can help me out. I think there is a density at which you have to have water and sewer. And this maybe Mr. Gutman can help me out with that required density. But I'm not aware of anything that prevents them from building large blocks in the Sem Beauty. But can you all take action on the motion for the wall first before we start discussing the other issue?

5:13:58Okay. So So all in favor of the motion. Aye. Aye. Opposed? Okay. The motion carries.

5:14:07So

5:14:09You're correct. I mean it it's it would be an unusual situation where somebody gets approval for forty and fifty foot lots and then builds large lots on well and septic but it would be

5:14:22unusual in these days when we're all in a frenzy to go get as much entitlements at the entitlement Jubilee down here that we don't bother to check to see if there's water and sewers.

5:14:36The lots would have to be one acre group well insectic. I'll mark up the record.

5:14:43W is that a county requirement? 'Cause the st the state would only requ the health department would only require half acre.

5:14:50Why, the health department wouldn't be able to put a septic a well in septic on one acre. I mean I'm sorry, I'm anything less than one acre, so you you wouldn't be able to develop store lots without off site extensions.

5:15:03I'm they only require a half acre, so I'm asking is there a county regulation that requires an acre?

5:15:12Well there's um the comprehensive plan on section ten that you know based on the number of BRUs for development um you know that'll shell connect based on certain distances. I think the the longest distance is one and a half miles. You're the put the most intense use in that table.

5:15:34But if it's your c if if that's a concern, you can just impose a condition saying that they shall connect to County Water and Sewer. Are you or are the well in septic or well inseptic are

5:15:45prohibited?

5:15:45Fair enough.

5:15:51Thank you.

5:15:54Yeah, from my perspective, if I lived there, I'd rather see half acres.

5:16:00I Not disputing that. I just think the question is I understand what you're saying. What are we really approving? Right.

5:16:07Yeah, and and I agree with you. I don't know if this completely fits in with the landscape around there, but it's not our place really to argue with the existing comprehensive plan. So it does fit within that future land use. Um

5:16:22Okay, so we uh let's uh make a motion then.

5:16:26Would you like to make that with uh connections?

5:16:33See if we can make the motion down there.

5:16:36Just to state for the record that uh Shelly May Johnson is consulting with the applicant to see if they would be okay with adding that condition.

5:16:44With with which app which condition. condition?

5:16:50Why

5:16:50would they be opposed? Okay, well just tell them that if they don't, we weren't gonna approve it.

5:17:02Thanks, sir. I think that's a non negotiable condition.

5:17:10Shelley, did you find out?

5:17:13Um so Apparently, yeah, I mean they're working with utilities, she they don't want to make a commitment at this time, but if you guys want to put it Okay,

5:17:21well then I will I make a motion to deny.

5:17:22No, that's fine. No, I'm um you can go ahead and add it as a condition. That's not what I'm saying. Um, you know, and then I'll just discuss with them further.

5:17:33Um she they're just looking at you who whether they're gonna connect where they're connecting on the utilities so they're concerned about it. I'm not ready to approve

5:17:39forty and fifty foot wide lots if they're not gonna be ready to commit to utilities. That's ridiculous.

5:17:45Okay.

5:17:45And that is exactly what I think Mr. Girardi was suspicious of, and so am I. I moved to deny.

5:17:55Okay.

5:17:56Reds have been planning development. There may be a middle ground there where you can say if lots are developed under a particular size that they would need to connect? And that might be a way to condition. To work with that as a condition. Uh again that's it's totally up. Well I haven't

5:18:12gotten a second yet, so

5:18:14we'll see.

5:18:14Okay.

5:18:16Did the previous motion die?

5:18:18Yeah, I thought there was a motion on the floor.

5:18:23The wall

5:18:23motion was approved.

5:18:26To be clear, the condition may not actually be necessary because in the general notes section of the master plan you can see It says water and sewer shall be provided by Pasco County.

5:18:39Which would imply that they have to connect to Pasco County.

5:18:42Well we has water has Pasco County said they can provide water and sewer service to this development? That would be determined at

5:18:50time

5:18:51of site planning.

5:18:55Well no the no sir, excuse me. I'd I'd read a lot of these reports, okay? This isn't my first rodeo here. And we always get a statement as to whether or not water and sewer service, whether there's capacity to serve the development. We understand that they don't commit the capacity based at the last meeting. They don't commit the capacity until an actual construction plan is applied for. But they do tell us whether or not there's adequate capacity. And I'm going to tell you right now, the people in this room and the people that

5:19:25were in this room and all the people out there on this 21,000 group Facebook group, they all want to know where that capacity is coming from. from too. So somebody needs to have an answer.

5:19:38I guess. So I want to be clear The applicant doesn't necessarily have to agree with the condition. You could impose a condition that requires them to connect to county water and sewer and the prohibits will and subject. They can fight about it at the Board of County Commissioners if you want to. I mean, but that I'm just saying just because the applicant doesn't stand up here and say they're committing to it doesn't mean you can't impose the condition. So if your position is that you will not approve forty and fifty foot logs without water and sewer, then it's it's your

5:20:06Your decision. So so I I believe uh Ms. Johnson did say that she spoke with her client and they will agree to that condition. So it's kind of a a moot argument if if you want to impose that.

5:20:18To what condition are you talking about, Brad?

5:20:20To connect to the water.

5:20:23What about sewer? Sewer.

5:20:30So just uh period. We're going to connect period regardless of lot size.

5:20:35Yes, and and again the the backstop on all this is the construction plans as Mr. Moody alluded to. Um at time of construction plan if they don't have service they don't get approved, they don't build anything. It sits vacant and these entitlements die. So uh I you know you can you've got some options here with some backstop.

5:20:56I mean if your project doesn't work without water and sewer they can always re rezon it back to A C whatever it is, A C And Build something on E C.

5:21:11So I'd make a motion that we approve it with that condition.

5:21:14And the condition is that the c project connect to County Water and Sewer and the Well and Septic would be prohibited. Correct.

5:21:22Which includes the wall.

5:21:24The wall is already approved. The wall's already included. You already voted on the wall. You got your wall, Mr.

5:21:29Chairman. Already. I just don't want that man to be mad at me. He looks mean.

5:21:35Be careful about saying you're gonna build the wall though.

5:21:41Did anybody second that motion?

5:21:43Could you second that motion, Jamie? No. Yeah. No. No second it. Okay. Richard second it. Further discussion of the motion? All in favor? Signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Like like sign for a name? Nay. Nay.

5:22:02Okay, I think you need a roll call on this one. Yeah,

5:22:04you guys are confusing me now.

5:22:05I think we're uh split.

5:22:07Okay. I is in favor of the motion, nay is against. I go real call.

5:22:14Mr. Jimmy Girardi. Mr. Derek Pontletz.

5:22:17Aye.

5:22:18Mr. Pete um Mr. Peter Hansel's left. Okay. Mr. John Moody.

5:22:22No.

5:22:23Mr. Christopher Poole. Mr. Richard Tonello. And Chairman Charles Gray. Aye. So that's three against three.

5:22:33So that means that the motion fails.

5:22:38So somebody wanna make a different motion.

5:22:40I'll move to continue the item until our next planning commission in Dade City when we can get some answers as to whether or not there's water and sewer capacity and whether it's feasible to connect this development to it.

5:22:54The other advantage of continuing would be possibly Mr. Hansel would be here but you won't have any time. I vote.

5:23:07Yeah I'll second it to get the discussion just like as I stated before, I just think this it's it's not ready. I mean this project is not ready for this area. I'll go on record as saying that. So but I support the continuing. But we

5:23:19already approved the wall.

5:23:24If approved, yes, there's a c I would ask the staff when they bring it back that they include the condition for the wall. Thank you. Since that was that part was approved. So add a condition for a wall.

5:23:37All right.

5:23:40So one month continuance. So uh let's do we have a second? Yes. Okay. Further discussion on the continuance? All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Pose, like, sign?

5:23:55For the record that continuance date is November second at one thirty here. Thank you.

5:24:03November second. That's where it's gonna be heard again.

5:24:12The pleasure of our company again.

5:24:16Beautiful downtown dates.