PDD-23-7689

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1. 1Mar 2, 2023
   Planning CommissionPC10Public hearingNo disposition in the minutes

   Zoning Amendment (Regular) (Consent) – Martha Joanne Wood … Pasco County – North end of Caroline Drive, West … Containing Approximately 40.20 Acres

   Open this item →▶ Play from 23:54
   ▶ 23:54under a minute1/2

   Denise

   23:54Item PC ten is gonna be polled. We do have some folks in opposition here.

   Charles GreyChair

   23:59P C ten, okay.

   ▶ 47:132h 6m2/2

   Liam Devine

   47:13Lume Divine, Planning Development. This is for item PC ten. Before we weekend I have some housekeeping items that I need to take care of. Um I've received ex partees from Commissioner Starkey, Commissioner Weightman, um Planning Commission Member um Jamie Girardi and Planning Commission Member John Moody. Also, there was an update to you one of your finding and facts in your agenda packet, which has been submitted to the clerk's office and provided to each of one of you. And I'm gonna read that change into record here. So this is regarding finding and facts

   47:44number 13. R1 Rural Density Residential District and R2 Low Residential Density Sorry R2 Low Density Residential District would produce more trips than the proposed rezoning to MF1 multifamily medium density district with a deed restriction limiting the maximum dwellings to 162. The Institute of Transportation Engineers, ITE, trip generation management. Calculation shows a decrease of 63 trips.

   48:14It should say trip generation manual calculation show a decrease of 57 peak hour trips. So that was the change to that finding effect. I've also received a letter of opposition which I provided to each one of you on your dais and the clerk's office. And I would request if you make a motion to receive and file the updated agenda. M MO and letter of opposition.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   48:37Motion to receive and file. Second.

   Charles GreyChair

   48:41Motion is second.

   Liam Devine

   48:42All in favor? Hi. Aye.

   Charles GreyChair

   48:43Hi.

   Liam Devine

   48:45Okay. Item PC 10, PDD 23-7689. It is in the name of Martha Joanne Wood Hinman. It is a zoning amendment from R2 Rural Density Residential District and R2 Low Density Residential District to MF1 Multifamily Medium Density District. The subject site is located on the north side of Caroline Drive, west of Bradley Bradford Drive.

   49:14Bridal Bridal Ford Drive, thank you. Um the aerial view um for the subject site.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   49:21Yeah.

   Liam Devine

   49:32It's not working. There we go. Um the surrounding area. I would like to note there are vision roads just outside of the thousand foot um marker that's shown on this map. There is Vision Road H that runs from 54 North and Wells Road Extension just a little bit north of

   Jim Fernella

   49:52here.

   Liam Devine

   49:59The surrounding future land use to the north is res 3, to the east is res 6, to the south is res 6, and to the west is res 6. The surrounding zoning

   50:12So the north, east, and west is all AR, and to the south is R1.

   50:20The subject site contains a barn and tree farm and approximately 40.2 acres. The applicant proposes to develop the property with 162 townhomes in conformance with the MF1 Multifamily Medium Density District Standards for Development. The applicant has provided a voluntary deed restriction as provided in your agenda packet. Access to the property is from Caroline Road, a county-maintained local road with approximately 60 feet of right-of-way and the septic site has a future land use classification of Res 6 and is also located in the urban service area. And

   50:51this is coming with a recommendation for approval from Planning and Development Department. I'm here if you have any questions.

   Charles GreyChair

   50:57Okay, any questions?

   51:00All right. The applicant present?

   51:08You look very similar to the last one.

   Barbara Wilhite

   51:32I'll do my name and address. Barbara Will Hight, sixty three twenty seven Grand Boulevard.

   Charles GreyChair

   51:38Waiting for the magic wand.

   Barbara Wilhite

   51:42And I did ask for the little This was on the consent agenda, so while we had a presentation ready, just in case, we had no reason to ask for additional time. But I have asked for additional time. Try to keep it within the five minutes, but um I want to make sure you get the information that you need to hear the matter.

   Charles GreyChair

   51:59Thank you.

   Barbara Wilhite

   52:05So do you have any clicker or do you want me to just say something? Okay, I'll just say scroll when I'm ready to scroll or okay. We're trying to get it fixed up. Okay.

   52:20If you don't mind let them fix it. Just it makes the presentation a little smoother. If not. If they can't we can certainly go in a different direction.

   52:32Okay.

   52:36So this is a b uh bigger picture. I know sometimes the staff m um aerials are a little small, so I wanted to give you a little bigger picture of where we're at. Not that this totally shows you all the detail and we'll get closer up on the details here, but the general project location oriented to the interstate was a State Road 54. Project summary, we're we are talking about townhomes here. We have forty point two acres total. Our net uh density is gonna be five point four units per acre. and that's four units

   53:06per gross acre, which for our townhome projects on the lower end. And when I show you the site plan, you really see that, it'll jump out to you. I think you'll see that this is a a lower density townhome project. Our deed restrictions for 162 townhomes maximum and no appointments. You can see under the comp plan, this is res six, the comp plan density would allow for 194 units, and we're proposing 162.

   53:36So I want to talk about this slide. As you can see from your finding of fact number six that May thirteenth, two thousand and eight this piece of property was before the board and the board approved R one and R two. We're coming to you today to change it from single family detached to town homes. So the question would Would n naturally come up, what's different? So I want to tell you what's different. On March 13, 2008, 20 days before that BOCC meeting,

   54:06your first ULI came in. That first U L I was April twentieth. Through April twenty fifth, two thousand and eight. Things changed as a result of that 2008 ULI panel and their recommendations. You put in place market areas. You put in place an urban concentration area. So not only does this property have a Res 6 land use, saying that this is appropriate for six units per acre, and that's the vision for this area, but it also is in your urban concentration area, your south market area. And there's

   54:37policies that go with that that direct this kind of density in this location. And as you can see, it's well within the ur the urban service area. or also called the urban concentration area. The other thing that's significant when you see this slide is Vision Rose. 2008, they will probably know the date that Vision Rose really hit that they put that into the into play. But vision roads are something that the county has spent a lot of time in studying the build-out and where build out was is going to occur. They did a build-out model, I understand, to create the vision

   55:07roads, create their quarter preservation ordinance. Two significant roads in this area, vision roads.

   55:18This is a bigger picture of your vision road. This is Bruce Bowns extension, as you can see the north-south that comes all the way from Bruce Bowns through Wiregrass up through Saddlebrook, the corner of Saddlebrook. North. and goes north up to up to Overpass. Um, Boyette Road, Abba Pass in that direction. major north-south road planned. As well as Res Roll R Wells Road Extension. These projects here on the right that you see are Chapel Crossings and DePew uh Ranch

   55:49as well as um water grass. And you can also see how the growth is is filling in. So this area is planned, urban concentration area. This was after the 2008 board action. There's been a lot of planning done and a lot of visioning as to what the county is going to be. And this sits right squarely within that plan.

   56:12Our project will have uh townhome density and then to the south you'll hear the single family folks that are here and to our east. But what's visioned is and and Terry could probably speak to this even more, is that what'll happen is is because of these major roads, there'll be higher density and intensities as you approach that intersection will be what the planning is there. There's quite a bit of acreage to the around our project to the north and to the west. So I think that's ultimately sets, you know, how do we fit into the bigger picture?

   56:44This is just a a slide that shows, you know, we always hear, I've heard heard it for years and years and years and years, townhomes versus single family homes, and we have townhomes, they're attached product, they're still s they're still homes, they're just attached versus detached, and I think there's actually benefits, and I'll go through that when I show you the site plan. There's benefits to townhomes. um that some single family communities don't have.

   57:04This is the site plan. A couple things noteworthy here. You're gonna hear a lot about, I think, about Caroline Drive. Caroline Drive comes from State Road uh fifty four north to this project, and right now it

   Jim Fernella

   57:20Mm-hmm.

   Barbara Wilhite

   57:21It dead ends right at at this project, right at this property. So sixty foot right away, um flatted, county maintained. And then this pro so it was obviously the county knew that there was gonna be development and made Those roads continue all the way the property line so that that street pattern can be continued and connected for this development. The other thing you'll see if you look at this site plan is that along the eastern boundary there's additional we've we pulled that back there

   57:51are single family homes you can see them there are single family homes and then a road and then our product Um our town homes. The distance between the s the closest home that you'll see over there and our um closest home, our town home, it's about 153 feet. Half a football field. Yeah that so that that's our always very conscious of what we do on our adjacencies here. On the s the south um east

   58:22side, uh where we have some homes there, we've uh pur purposely located ponds there. You see a lot of ponds on here because of the density. We have property. Um So we're able to, you know, cluster those cluster those uh town homes and create a very nice um living environment. Right now, under the current zoning, these homes, the homes that are zoned, can be twenty-five feet from the property line and five in a pool within five feet of the property

   58:52line. All these units will be pulled back. from uh from the property line and how you see there. There's actually uh the other thing that's interesting about the site point is the extra parking. If I knew how to highlight any of that on this, I would do that. But there are extra there is extra parking built into this plan, guest parking, um separate and aside from driveways.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   59:15Mr. Chairman Mariano. Yes. Barbara, what is the on the southwest corner of the which you're showing here? Is that a roadway connection to something other than Caroline Draw?

   Barbara Wilhite

   59:28That is that is um emergency access. Because we're over a hundred units we have to have emergency access and so that's the conception

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   59:36to what?

   Barbara Wilhite

   59:37There's there's a road there is

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   59:43So that's that's an emergency access to chopper?

   Barbara Wilhite

   59:45Yes.

   59:49I mean again it's the conceptual locational emergency access.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   59:54Okay. I think Liam I just would the when this goes to the board, I think you need to state that in your agenda because it only talks about access to Caroline, you probably need to say there's an emergency connection to Tupper Road, because that's not obvious from the agenda memo.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:00:11That's fine. It would be gated and only used for emergencies. None of our traffic can use it.

   Kathy Shram

   1:00:19Mm-hmm.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:00:21One thing that I think is interesting over the zoning, talking about what's zone now versus what we're proposing, actually a significant uh decrease in the trip generation between the single family homes versus the attached town homes. the trip generation in the PM peak hour is thirty seven percent decrease and the AM peak hour is a twenty eight percent decrease. So over what's approved today, the maximum that's approved today, those that's the difference between

   1:00:50And with that I'm gonna sit down and let you hear t for public comment and we have a team

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:00:54here. One more question. So Barbara, could you address Caroline Drive?

   1:01:01But I don't I can't tell is it paid but

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:01:10let me try to It is The substandard condition is the pavement condition. It's a 60 foot right away, platted, county maintained. It's the pavement condition. And that's why there's a finding of fact that requires us to make a proportionate share payment. to that.

   1:01:28Okay. But it's pavement quality.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:01:35All right. Could could could could we get Mr. Henry just to come up since I suspect somebody's gonna argue this idea?

   Henry

   1:01:49Tampa three three six oh seven. Uh so we have conducted a a substandard road assessment of the roadway. It generally speaking is about twenty two to twenty-four feet wide. Uh really the the the primary uh deficiency is the pavement and that you if you look at it and I certainly have pictures if you'd like to see those but the the the pavement section is is deteriorating there are potholes on the roadway but essentially that's that's the deficiency in the roadway and the developer is willing to has agreed not only to portion

   1:02:19its share but actually to go ahead and pave the road as a part of this project.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:02:24Okay, well then th that's an important statement that you just made.

   Henry

   1:02:28Correct.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:02:29So

   Henry

   1:02:30Yes it is.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:02:31So I don't want to just gloss over that 'cause 'cause that's very different than what the findings have. Absolutely,

   Henry

   1:02:36correct. That that that is a new thing ha that has come about just recently, but he has committed he is committing to pave the road.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:02:45So

   1:02:47If that's an actual offer by the developer, I think it probably needs to be in the D restriction. So 'cause that's very different than what the memo says.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:02:58We can add that to the deed restriction and you can include that hopefully in a motion.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:03:02Okay.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:03:02Favorable motion at some point.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:03:04So you would so just so we're clear, the developers are opting to pave it to county standards from their entrance to fifty four?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:03:11That's correct.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:03:13Mm. Okay.

   1:03:16And that would be before your f you get your first what? Building permit CO, where we're

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:03:24first you know final inspection. Final building inspection. Not allowed to say CO, but yes. We'll work on that language with with you as well.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:03:35Sixty five, I think.

   Henry

   1:03:37I I d honestly I I don't I I would think it's around thirty, but I I honestly don't recall seeing a a speed limit sign on the road.

   Kathy Shram

   1:03:46Cool.

   Henry

   1:03:50I'll look and see if I can see one on it. But I I don't recall seeing one. I'm sure there is one but I I don't recall seeing one.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:04:01All right. Uh Uh anybody uh else? Barbara from your side. Okay. All right, so is anybody in the audience who'd like to ask questions or speak?

   Denise

   1:04:13We do have some folks that have signed up to speak. I can call them um Beverly Leonard is the per first person.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:04:19Okay. Beverly Leonard.

   Denise

   1:04:34Then after Beverly we have Jim Labrato.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:04:42All right, you're Beverly Leonard?

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:04:45My main concern is the fact that

   Charles GreyChair

   1:04:48we're in building

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:04:49and buildings.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:04:50Ma'am and there are Hold on a minute. Before you start, I just need to get your name on the recording. So for her purposes in your address, and you've been sworn in. Have you been sworn? Right. Okay. So if you just give us your name and address and then you can go.

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:05:06Beverly Leonard, and I'm at 5900 correct. arena trace.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:05:10Thank you very much. Okay.

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:05:14So my main concern about all this is the fact that as of today I found out there's three elementary schools you can't even get into right in our area. So you keep building all these apartments, but there's no place for the kids to go to school unless you're going to expand the schools. On top of that, you're just adding more and more traffic on the 54 that all of us have to deal with as we pull out. And the other thing is I don't know whether you realize or

   1:05:44not, but people from Brookside have to come across and do a U-turn to go back Uh Westbound. So you add all these people that are coming into these conducts, 163 um units, that's a lot more traffic added on to Caroline Drive out to 54. So that's my main complaint is the fact that these schools are getting packed. So um I mean I I take

   1:06:14a child to school to middle school and he can't even get into Cyprus High School because it's already frozen. Yeah. And um, you know, it just can't keep happening on on Bruce V Downs, my gosh, you're building more next to the Wells Fargo Bank.

   1:06:31It's just not right to the kids because they deserve a good education.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:06:36So Richard, do you want to speak to that?

   School District Representative

   1:06:39I was just looking up the boundary. I was looking also up the um hundred and sixty two dwelling units with generate about thirteen elementary schools, six middle schools and eight high schoolers. And I I believe he's uh that would be I'm not I'll have to check the zoning, school zoning, but it looks like to me it would be Wesley Chapel High School, Weightman Middle School, and probably Wesley Chapel Elementary.

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:07:02And those three schools I believe are all full.

   School District Representative

   1:07:05They are they're yeah, they're I'd have to double check that, but as far as the Cypress Creek that would be a that's a school choice thing and if the school's at ninety percent or more then it's frozen. So

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:07:13even so Oh that's frozen too because of all the development okay.

   School District Representative

   1:07:17We freeze the school site ninety percent in capacity, so it may or may not be over capacity. But that's in a school choice where if you don't live in the school boundary you have to try to choose in. Um

   1:07:29As far as the boundaries we've got.

   1:07:34Thinking of the road, Curley Road, there's a um Kirkland Ranch Academy of Innovation. We're building a K eight there. And that's gonna open in tw uh twenty twenty-four. So we know that development's coming in. This is a small development, not generating a lot of kids.

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:07:53No but it just adds on to all the other ones are already

   School District Representative

   1:07:56in. Yeah. We do have schools in the area. We are building no s new schools in the area, so that would help with with the relief.

   Unidentified speakerVoice C

   1:08:03Well hell, yep.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:08:05Uh Mr. Tanello represents the school board, so he'd be the person that would know how it would affect schools. And we appreciate your concern now. Thank you for coming up. Who's next?

   Denise

   1:08:18Jim Labrato is next.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:08:28Good afternoon. Jim Labrato, [address removed]. Uh several concerns. uh just getting on and off of Route 54. Currently when you try to get onto my street, Caroline Drive, it's problematic right now today. to get off of Caroline Drive on to 54 is problematic today. So that's my concern there. Uh at some point in time there's gonna be an addition to the left turn lane going

   1:08:59on to Caroline Drive, whose expense will that be, the taxpayer or the developer? Uh

   1:09:07Caroline Drive. They this development's gonna have to be connected to a public sanitary sewer system. How will that be routed? And whose cost will be you know paying for that? Will it be the taxpayers or the developer? The road they've just spoke to pardon me, they just spoke to that they're going to uh assume the cost of repaving Caroline Drive. Uh my question next question are curbs and sidewalks. Will the developer also be putting those in? to uh county

   1:09:37codes. Um

   1:09:41The last thing is this development not fitting in with the neighborhood. Citrus Trace and Saddle Ridge are all homes on larger properties. By today's standards, they're substantial properties. I'm personally on 0.78 of an acre. Most of my neighbors around me are on larger lots. I believe the smallest one in Citrus Trace is a half acre. Uh so I just don't see it fitting in with the neighborhood. The uh traffic count How

   1:10:12do you multiply that out? There was a chart up and I didn't quite understand it. I see 162 townhouses going in, so you have to multiply that by something. How many cars per day are going to go in front of my house? Uh is it three, four times? If it's four times, it's six hundred and fifty cars a day driving in front of me. And it just seems over overdone. You know, it was zoned for uh what was it, six houses per acre now.

   1:10:43You know, that you know, that was perfect. There was a reason why it was zoned that in the beginning, and it should stay that way. Um

   1:10:53This is second time I've come before you guys to watch what's going on and it's quite impressive what you guys have to do and I probably a thankless job, but Thank you. Okay.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:11:03I think

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:11:04any questions for me or

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:11:05I just wanted to point out

   Jon Moody

   1:11:07I think you said the property was owned for six units per acre. I think the proposals actually to reduce the density from that what was allowed. I think she said it was four units per gross acre and five point something units per net acre, so that's like a reduction.

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:11:24I I agree with what you're saying. You're correct. I think the quality of the residence if it were your single family homes. You know, it's a single family home community on bigger lots, if they were you know Homes, not town homes.

   1:11:41Just the quality of the neighborhood.

   Jon Moody

   1:11:44What would make you think that there's a lesser quality in an attached product versus a detached product?

   Unidentified speakerVoice D

   1:11:52Just experience in life. When you go out and look around.

   1:11:59You know, after sixty eight years I've seen a lot of things.

   1:12:05Again, thank you, gentlemen.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:12:06Thank you very much. And I can't believe you're sixty-eight. You look much better than

   1:12:15All right. Who's next, Denise?

   Denise

   1:12:17Next person is Mike Seaton.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:12:19Yeah.

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:12:27I don't even know if I'm gonna show you these pictures or not, but uh because a lot of this has already been gone over, but I would like for you to take a look at what Caroline. If you'd

   Charles GreyChair

   1:12:35like to share 'em we'd be happy to s receive and file 'em if you want to.

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:12:39Well I'll

   Charles GreyChair

   1:12:39pass 'em

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:12:40around. I would like to show 'em.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:12:41Okay, do we have the apparatus working there that you could show 'em? Name and

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:12:48address. Yeah, I can do it for name and address. What what he's gonna show you is what the situation is with Caroline Drive today.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:12:57Okay, before you start though, we need your name and address. I'm sorry.

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:13:00Mike Seton uh [address removed].

   Charles GreyChair

   1:13:08Okay, and you've been sworn.

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:13:10I'm sorry, I am sworn. Yes.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:13:13Yeah, thank you for changing that view. Getting a little C Sig.

   1:13:20Thank you.

   1:13:22All right.

   1:13:28Alright, you can begin whenever you want.

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:13:30These these streets have been like this and getting worse since two thousand and eight when the last time this this

   Charles GreyChair

   1:13:37Is this Caroline Drive?

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:13:38Caroline Drive, yes. Since the last time that this area was uh slighted to be developed.

   1:13:47It hasn't done anything but gotten worse as you can see in these pictures. It's it's nothing more than one big pothole. They they come out like maybe every, I don't know, two or three months, slap on some cold some what they call a cold patch, and two weeks later the stuff's peeling off. So yeah, it it would be good to have a situation where we got this repaved. And and hopefully the asphalt on that street is about that thick because when when those things start

   1:14:17peeling up you see you see the thickness of the asphalt and then you see nothing but that white rock below it. So we don't have a sufficient surface there. Now.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:14:27Well they have y you know when they pave that it's gonna have to be done to county standards like a regular county road. Oh I understand. Okay. So it'll it'll be done properly.

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:14:37Right, and and I understand that the the the residents are gonna pick up the the the tab on it. No

   Charles GreyChair

   1:14:43no no the developer. The

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:14:44developer no I'm talking about isn't and and I I may stand corrected here, but my understanding is is the residents will will pay for the portion of the property that's in front of their house to maintain it. going forward.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:14:59Sir if this is a county road, if this is a county maintained road, the county will maintain it. What the applicant is offered to do is repave it to county standards, but it would still be county maintenance when they're done.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:15:11But you won't pay her you're

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:15:13you're

   Charles GreyChair

   1:15:13not gonna

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:15:13be able to do that. You may be thinking of our paving assessment program and I don't know if this if your neighbors ever petitioned the county to pave this road. Did you?

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:15:25I I don't live on the road. I'm ac I actually live in Saddle Ridge Strait. I'm sorry, Saddle

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:15:29Ridge State. H maybe someone your neighbors knows whether you all ever petitioned to have this county pave this road.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:15:38That's okay. We can't take m take

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:15:40it.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:15:40But we can't listen to the right-of-way.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:15:42But your stat your state the statement would be true if the neighbors had petitioned the county to pave the road, they would be paying for a portion of the that paving cost. Right. But that didn't happen obviously 'cause it's of the condition that it's in. But the applicants offered to pay the two county standards which actually effectively saves the residents money from having to pay for themselves. Okay. But the maintenance will always be it's county maintenance now, it'll be county

   1:16:12maintenance when they're done paving it.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:16:16So it won't cost you anything. So

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:16:18other than the general taxes that everybody pays, but I mean but There's not going to be any special assessment on the neighbors for this road if the applicant is paying for.

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:16:27Okay, okay. Well that's that's probably an assading.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:16:30That's why I exclaimed when Steve Henry said that.

   1:16:36That you're paving the road because That's actually saving the residents the cost of having to help pave it.

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:16:42Right. I mean I I'm assuming that what's happening to the road right now is just simply a patchwork job that the county is doing.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:16:51And your statement that the county will come fill potholes and do the bare maintenance that's required. A resurfacing under current county procedures would require a pavement assessment. Right. And that's usually the neighbors help pay for.

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:17:06Okay. Now, let's talk about traffic on that road. You have Citrus Trace 2 and 3, Saddle Ridge Estates, and the gentleman that was just up here was pretty close. He said there was about 650 vehicles. I say that's an understatement. I think it's it's under. Is underrepresented completely. And I can say that about Saddle Ridge Estates because I'm very familiar with the traffic pattern going and coming

   1:17:36from Saddle Ridge Estates. And they have to use that road in order to get in and out, just just like the folks in Citrus Trace. And I can say without a doubt that it's way understated. Now Right now there's there's 102 lots in Citrus Trace. There's about 47 lots. So for the sake of argument, let's say there's 150 lots between Saddle Ridge and Citrus Trace. And we're

   1:18:06talking about adding 162. We're more than doubling the traffic on that road. Because that's it. That's that's the only way that they're gonna come and go. Is the standards today. So that's the real problem.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:18:21Uh they'll speak to that when they come back up to explain it. So I'm sorry. When they come back up to answer these questions, they'll explain your questions.

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:18:30A as far as far as that traffic.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:18:32As far as their w how they arrived at the traffic count.

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:18:36Well I you know Okay.

   1:18:39Okay.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:18:40All right. Thank you very much. Any other questions? Can

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:18:43we held your pictures for some discussion later? Yeah, I I would like to I would like to uh I would like to keep those on the on the record.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:18:52Well, see you're willing to give them to the Planning Commission to keep? Yes. Okay.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:18:57I I have copies of them.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:18:59Okay, do I have a motion then?

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:19:00Move to receive and file. Second.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:19:05All in favor? I

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:19:07Oh. Hey,

   Unidentified speakerVoice F

   1:19:09thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you.

   Denise

   1:19:12Next person is Jim Fernella.

   Jim Fernella

   1:19:26Good afternoon. My name is Jim Fernella, [address removed]. I'm the president of the Wesley Villages, the Wesley Chapel Home Association. At this time we have the same concerns as a lot of the other people do, and that infrastructure. The infrastructure is not there to support 162. home condos in that area. You'll look that area's world is surrounded by farms.

   1:19:58Some of them are single family lots that are huge and they're single family houses. True, 162 homes, you multiply that by a minimum two cars per house. That's a lot of cars going in and out. Our subdivision is on the west side of Tupper Road. Young ladies stated at Tupper Road can be used for emergency access only. I don't believe that. Because that property has a gate up there at the end of Tupper Road where it makes a lot

   1:20:28of Left to go west, that property is on the right hand side. Eventually they're going to want to use that Tuffle Road. And eventually that's going to affect us majorly in that because on the west side of Tupper Road, up and down Tuffle Road's a dirt road, on the west side of it is some farms, and it's uh wetlands. And right there at the corner of Tupper Road in 54, that's a major wetland right there. Eventually

   1:20:58it's going to end up. You know, you're going to have traffic moving, you're going to have buildings going this way. Right now there's farms. You go out there and it's farms, ranches, horses. It doesn't fit. And if for some reason, you know, they want to pop a big subdivision right there in the middle of a rural area. But it's the biggest thing is the infrastructure. And my colleagues that are here with me today, they also mentioned the possibility of bringing more crime into the area. Right

   1:21:30now we're kind of quiet. We cross our fingers every day that we're not going to have like the west side of Pasco County. And it's getting worse. Yeah. So basically that's what we're worried about, gentlemen. Uh infrastructure. The infrastructure's not

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:21:48there. What heat how time are you concerned about moving into

   Jim Fernella

   1:21:52Well it's it's moving just like it you know it's anywhere else where you got a lot of people moving into you're gonna have crime a little bit of crime life. Cars getting broken into right now we're yeah we're okay but you know never know. And right now the sheriff's right-of-way.

   Jon Moody

   1:22:10No, it

   Jim Fernella

   1:22:11would be no sir. No sir, I'm not. It's just the nature of building you're gonna have Crun and the sheriff's department's already thin that. So there's no intersect. There's no crime at all. You know, it's just the nature of it.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:22:26Can I have a question? Sure. Absolutely. What when you you throwing out the term infrastructure, but what do you mean by that other than Car Caroline Drive? What infrastructure are you saying that's like

   Jim Fernella

   1:22:37Tupper Road. Tupper Road leads up, comes off of fifty-four, goes straight up into rural area, right at

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:22:45the Planning Commissioner Wepper Road 'cause we had an application come in on Tupper Road, so you don't need to add Educate them on the condition of Tupper Road, but The access they're proposing to Tupper Road is an emergency access. That means the only time it would ever be used is for emergency vehicles.

   Jim Fernella

   1:23:02Well, sir, for for now. But in the future, Tupper Roads But there wrote there and Yeah

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:23:11how you know things change. So y let me ask you the question in the reverse. If Tupper Road were paved to county standards, you wouldn't have an issue without being a full access?

   Jim Fernella

   1:23:23Yeah, we have full access. We did it years ago when they were going to build a hospital right there.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:23:29So your your concern on Tupper Road is that it's dirt? Dirt

   Jim Fernella

   1:23:32road.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:23:33If it was paved you wouldn't have a concern about a connection.

   Jim Fernella

   1:23:35Right. You'd still be concerned because of all the traffic. You're gonna have traffic no matter whether you're on Caroline or in the future tough a road. And uh you know eventually Let me put it this way, eventually it's all going to be paid over. We're going to end up like Tampa, Orlando, Miami. That's what we don't want. This is world. You got farms of cows and horses back there in the back of us.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:24:02Sir, I wasn't trying to have you restate your arguments. I was asking you a very specific question about the infrastructure. So the concern on infrastructure was Tupper Road, that's your main concern.

   Jim Fernella

   1:24:12Tupper Road is a rural road, it's dirt road. Okay. It's only about twenty-four, maybe twenty-four feet long here. And all that and then on the west side of Tupper Road is wet land and farms and woods.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:24:25Okay. You've answered my question. Thank you. All right, any other questions?

   Charles GreyChair

   1:24:32If not, thank you very much for your time.

   Denise

   1:24:42Kathy Shram.

   Kathy Shram

   1:24:51Oh

   Kathy Shram

   1:24:52Hi, my name is Kathy Shram. I'm a 34-year resident of [address removed] in Wesley Chapel and I have been sworn. Um I'm here today to present two petitions to you. One from the Wonderful Citizens of Sisters Trace. There are 127 signatures on this. The other from the Wonderful Citizens of Saddle Ridge Estates. And there are eighty-one signatures on this. I also would like to mention a couple things that

   1:25:22they've talked about. You talk about the developer paving. Caroline Drive. Well when Saddle Ridge was being built The developer Charlie Badcock back then promised to pave Caroline Drive to a type two standard, whatever that is. And as you can see in the photos, that was never done. We're really wary about pro promises from builders. We want it done, completed, everything, before

   1:25:53a shovel has ever been turned for whatever development is there. I also want to remind you that Tupper Road. For the emergency access is a private road on that corner. Um that person may or may not allow people on his property. and Tupper Road does flood. Buses do not choose not to go down Tupper Road anymore. They go back to Caroline Drive. And so if a bus can't go down canon

   1:26:23ambulance. Thank you very much.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:26:25Thank you. Do you want to return those in? Yes. Okay, so if we have a motion please. So moved.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:26:33Second.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:26:33Can we have a second? All in favor?

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:26:38Mr. Chair, just to be clear, because we discussed this in connection with a prior application, Tupper Road is not a private road. It's a county maintained roadway and it's owned by the county. Right. We talked about that before. But there seems to be this m misperception in the public the Tupper Road is I think maybe 'cause there's a gentleman that paid part of it on his own. But it is a county maintained, county owned roadbook. Right. That was established.

   Denise

   1:27:09Next person is John Strasser.

   Unidentified speakerVoice G

   1:27:17I live at uh [address removed] right at the corner. Uh noticed a lot of extra traffic. We're gonna have uh approximately from Citrus Trace One or Citrus Trace 2. Let me just hold you out one second.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:27:31Pardon me? You you you didn't state your name, is it John Strasser? John Strasser. Yeah we did seven The reason is we need to rec record it for the secretary over there. So she because you She has to type it up later and if she can't hear you she can't t type it up. So appreciate it. You you were clear to me, but you may not be clear to the recording. Okay, okay,

   Unidentified speakerVoice G

   1:27:53good. Uh I live in Citrus Straits two. Citrus Straits III is behind me, and we have several subdivisions back there. According to our calculations, it would be approximately uh a traffic pattern of about eight hundred extra cars coming down Caroline Drive, right? Now it's poorly maintained, poorly conditioned by the county, as you can see on some of the other photographs. With the uh with the addition of the uh additional

   1:28:23people there, it's gonna be quite uh a lot of traffic in there. We have no uh exits uh from Brooksides over there. They come over, do a turnaround on Caroline Drive, causes a lot of issues, a lot of traffic accidents in that area. Uh tougher road. As you say, it's a county road poorly maintained. It's a dirt road. Caroline Drive is poorly maintained.

   1:28:54Right now we have water going up Caroline Drive to the back. There are no sewer lines in that area. Everybody's on well except in the back they're on sewer or on water. In the front they're on well and some public. One of the extra ways to get into Caroline or into the subdivision would be through Cooper Road on the north side. You had

   1:29:24the map up. If uh if that were to come in across on uh on uh that road, they could uh access uh over to uh the excess on that road uh and get out of it rather than using Caroline Drive. So if that's an option, uh maybe that should be looked at on the north side and uh eliminate the traffic on uh Caroline.

   1:29:54Any questions?

   Charles GreyChair

   1:29:55Uh we just she just put the m map up. I'm trying to see what road you're talking about.

   1:30:03Pardon me?

   Unidentified speakerVoice G

   1:30:04I

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:30:04think

   Unidentified speakerVoice G

   1:30:04it's

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:30:05Cooper Road that goes to east west. And so I d from looking at the map it doesn't look like they have a they own up to Cooper Road. Pardon me? It doesn't look like the applicant owns the property between The applicant's property in Cooper Road. We can ask

   Unidentified speakerVoice G

   1:30:22the applic. The property is on the north side there. Cooper Road comes in on the north side of the parts of the

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:30:28Are you saying this property touches Cooper Road?

   Unidentified speakerVoice G

   1:30:32Uh where are we at then? No. See where Cooper Road is? It comes across and I'm not sure.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:30:37I I see Cooper Road on but I don't see where the subject site touches it.

   Unidentified speakerVoice G

   1:30:45But uh they can extend Cooper Road over into the subdivision there.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:30:49On somebody else's property?

   Unidentified speakerVoice G

   1:30:51Sure, why not? You guys take property all the time.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:30:55Well, just to be clear, uh the county's not gonna condemn that person's property for a private development.

   Unidentified speakerVoice G

   1:31:01Well well they could access that, they could uh uh acquire. Okay, but

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:31:05if you're asking the county to condemn that person's property so they can build a connection to Cooper Road, that's not happening. Well

   Unidentified speakerVoice G

   1:31:12How they're how are they gonna get any uh sewer lines? Are you gonna come up uh Carolina?

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:31:17We can ask the applicant to address how they're getting water and sewer, but Pardon me? We can ask the applicant how they're intending to address water and sewer, but I don't want you to be under some perception that the county's gonna condemn somebody's property so they can have a connection to Cooper Road.

   Unidentified speakerVoice G

   1:31:31Well, the subdivision could buy it and then develop it.

   1:31:37That would be

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:31:38very difficult for us to condition them.

   Unidentified speakerVoice G

   1:31:41Yeah.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:31:42Buying somebody's property that they don't own.

   Unidentified speakerVoice G

   1:31:46I mean it's a possibility.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:31:49I guess anything's possible.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:31:53All right. Anything else? I don't know. No any questions? Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

   Denise

   1:32:02The last person that ha have signed up is Jessica Vitalo.

   Jessica Vitalo

   1:32:11Good afternoon, Jessica Vitalo, 29329-Downy Place in Citrus Trace 3, I believe, is what pops up on the social media when you tag a photo. I am a resident and I have been sworn in. Um additionally with my wonderful neighbors who are here, many of them are not speaking today, but as you can tell, this is a probably a bigger crowd than you normally get. We are very impassion very passionate about where we live, about the kind of people who live there, about the family atmosphere that we have along with the agricultural atmosphere

   1:32:41with horses, donkeys, goats. cows. It's a wonderful, wonderful area. I'm obviously one of the younger people here. We moved in About three years ago, purposely we'd been scouting this specific area to move into for five years. When a house became available, we begged, borrowed, and stole to get into this neighborhood because of those reasons. I would like to make a point to talk about the agriculture that will be taken away and the animals of where they will be going. Is there going

   1:33:11to be a study about how where these animals are going? We have wild boar, I have pictures, I also have pictures of the tortoises that inhabit that whole entire area. It is very important that that is taken into consideration. as well as one road to rule them all does not work. I think we found that in many different cases. 162 additional housing units, which means up to maybe four Cars per unit cannot handle that road. That road cannot handle

   1:33:41what it already has. Any questions?

   Jon Moody

   1:33:45Just comment. I think wild boars are considered by the state to be a nuisance species and there's no hunting season for 'em and there's no limit on them. You can shoot them on site 'cause they don't want to

   Jessica Vitalo

   1:33:58I am not a gun owner, sir.

   Jon Moody

   1:34:00Oh okay, that's fair, that's good. As for gopher tortoises, it's very common in developments like this for gopher tortoises to be captured. They relocated to a gopher towards sanctuary to get them out of the way of development. And the I would love to know how

   Jessica Vitalo

   1:34:16they plan on doing that.

   1:34:23Any other questions?

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:34:25And we I guess to add on to that th they'll be required to prove that they did that. Yes,

   Jessica Vitalo

   1:34:29I would

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:34:30so okay.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:34:32Yeah, that's a common requirement for any development.

   Jessica Vitalo

   1:34:35Excellent. Thank you.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:34:37Thank you for your concerns.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:34:38I also want to speak back to you on that list, but I'm signing it. I'm sworn in it.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:34:44Okay.

   1:34:51You've been sworn, you say?

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:34:52Yes.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:34:53Okay, here

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:34:54we are. Dwight Hopkins 29228 Tupper Row. I live beside the property. I own the 200 acres around the property. I own property in the west and the property in the north of this. And then along the entire border of the property. And there's several subjects come up and I won't review something somebody said about. I know a lot of kids, small kids of all sides, catch a bus on Caroline Ride. And sometimes

   1:35:24there are in the morning, their parents are there and they're trying to keep them. They'll run out and stuff, so we're real careful when we go through there. But they definitely additional. Putting redoing Caroline Drive, they needed side warnings. So those kids will have somewhere to get off the road. But my first thing I want to address is the county attorney about this tougher road thing. Here is my here is my uh survey of my

   1:35:55property. This is Tupper Road. And here is my property line. I own Tupper Road. I own Tupper Road here and own Tupper Road there. And last time I heard America there's due process. Nobody can take your land without due process. I just got involved on purchasing land from Evans Corporation and they had some land on it. It was on Dan Brown Hill Road. And and the county did take that. They didn't take as much as they wanted to, but

   1:36:25but Evans opposed them and they had to quit claim. that land to the county before it was theirs. But I've been paying taxes on this land for thirty years. Nobody, nobody's ever told me that the county owned it. Not one thing. My deed chose the land. My legal description chose the land. There's no la you go to any title cut. There's nothing, says the county owns it. This the county comes on there greats every three months and really mess it up. Don't mean to own it.

   Jon Moody

   1:36:56How does the ownership of the road affect this case? I you came last time your you and your neighbors when there

   1:37:03was

   1:37:03a discussion, in fact a lively debate with the Mr. Goldstein over here about ownership of the road. What I'm trying to figure out is how does that relate to this case?

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:37:13Well, it relates in a big way. And it's about this whole transportation thing, you know. And Mr. Wood

   1:37:19was

   1:37:19a friend of mine. I tried to get them developed that to a lesser density. They could have made plenty of money. They want to head out of the park and build 160 homes on it. If those vision roads were through there, I'd say that's a darn good idea. They're not, they're not going to be there for a long time, if ever. But here's how tougher road comes into it. first in that emergency action to come and go. I would gladly give that to County. But somebody ought to ask me, you know, I mean say, hey, can we come out and put an emergency action on

   1:37:49your property before you get up here in a public meeting and say you're gonna do that. Here's a bad thing. When people come out of this new development, they're gonna have a hard time going down to Carolina and getting in fifty four. So the first east west road they hit is Downey. And that goes over Tupper. And they're they're by the hundreds they're going to reroute Downey down Tupper so they can make a ride in Tupper. I've seen it happen before. So not only will they be using Caroline Drive, but they'll

   1:38:19be using Tupper in a big way. And and it has not been paid there. I paid the part Because the county had graded it. They had actually graded down that they had graded down so far they hit the some of the utilities. The water would just run down the roads. So I paid part of it, I told you last time they fixed it. Everybody's real happy about it. But and I the county didn't have to pay a penny. And they knew I did it, they didn't say nothing. They owned the road, they should have said something. Come around and drove around. Nobody said it mean me. Anyway, fine.

   1:38:50But they will be driving on tough roads with us, I promise you. Guarantee, you can't stop. I mean, we let people from Citrus drive through their country. We drive through Citrus Trace. And you know it's quid pro quota. And so Sir,

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:39:06do you have a pen? Do you have a pen on you? I want to give you the statutory reference. It

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:39:11says we own

   1:39:12it.

   1:39:15Well

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:39:15you said that you said that nobody's ever told you why we own the road, I wanna tell you. It's section ninety five point three six one Florida statutes.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:39:23Well that's y you know that's quoting a section is one thing, but when you get in a court and from a jury and y you get you get start splitting hairs. What's maintaining the road? Just because you run a grader down there once every three months, that's not maintaining that road. I mow it, I've mowed it for 20 years. I grade that road. Uh I do everything. I get people swear under oath that I do it because it's

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:39:49So you're saying that all the neighbors that that you're telling me that all the neighbors that use Tupper Road, all of your neighbors are trespassing? Is that what you're saying?

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:39:55No, I don't care. I don't mind. I just don't want a hundred more cars on Tupper Road unless they want to fix it. Like you said, let them have a lot of it.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:40:02Well if you're taking the position that you own it, which I don't agree with, that would mean that all that your neighbors are trespassing.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:40:09Well, no, because there's an easement going through there. And people have a right to drive through that easement to or to benefit. I uh the people to the west of me on on Tupper and it's an easy eagress easement. It's been there all the time. So I can't stop them. I I wouldn't want to stop them, but I just don't want 100 more carts in every day.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:40:29Sir you're not an attorney, I don't want to debate with you. I'm just telling you the statutory reference you should look at. Ninety five point three six one Florida statutes. You can your attorney can make whatever arguments he wants to make. I'm just telling you that

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:40:41the

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:40:41reason the county

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:40:41owns the rubber.

   1:40:49Well that wouldn't be enough in the anyway, because they don't maintain but twenty feet. That's all they maintain.

   1:40:57I'm

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:40:57sure our road and bridge department can tell you exactly what they maintain on that road.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   1:41:01Well anyway. But don't think they won't be using tougher roads than they will. Yeah, and and the other thing that everybody else will point out is if Caroline just her right turn in one way out, it is dangerous, dangerous, dangerous to turn around. There's three lanes coming out of it. And you can have cars in two inside lanes, but you've got plenty of room to turn around, turn, and then you start to make a turn, and some of that veer out of that into one

   1:41:31of those inside lanes over to the outside, just about run over here. There's gonna be some bad wrecks there. It's just it's just not up to 160 to more housing. That's that's my point. That's all I got to say. Thank you.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:41:46All right. Thank you for coming again. Good to see ya.

   1:41:55I think the answer to your question is really has no bearing on this particular application. Yeah,

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:42:00so I was trying

   Charles GreyChair

   1:42:00to think about the relevance. But I think he just heard he he just concerned because

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:42:05he arguably does because they are showing an emergency connection to Tupper Road. So they would not be able to show an emergency connection to a private roadway without permission, but it's not a private roadway.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:42:17Is that because of the the right of prescription? Is that what

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:42:20there's a statute that says if we maintain it for four years we own it. Does it matter what a deed says, doesn't matter what easement there are Anybody that wants to look at section ninety five point three six one foreign statutes can do it, but it's also important not just for this County this gentleman. All those re like I said, all of those neighbors would be effectively trespassing. If we the county doesn't own the road. Is he requ are they

   Jon Moody

   1:42:44requiring to have an emergency access? I mean they could do like a boulevard entrance that allows

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:42:52you to task if it's blocked.

   Jon Moody

   1:42:54I've seen

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:42:55that before.

   1:42:57There is a there are other ways you can get emergency access that is a true statement, but Um I don't wanna It's better when an emergency access in my opinion is to a different road than the primary. Because if there's an accident on a fifty four, that's not gonna help to have a a boulevard. But a connection on Tupper Road does actually help you?

   Jon Moody

   1:43:17Right. What I'm asking is it a requirement of this development? If let's just say the gentleman is successful in court and Tupper Road's deemed to be a private road and they can't build an emergency access to it, does that stop them from doing this project?

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:43:32Not necessarily. Okay. They had up to meet whatever the code requires for burnt their actions. There may be other ways we can get things out of the park? I'm getting is that's not a condition of approval that we are looking to consider today. I believe they're just gonna meet whatever our code requires as related to emergency access. It's not part of the deed restriction. It the only thing that's missing is that since they are showing an emergency access to Jumper Road, I think staff needs to at least note in their agenda that that's their proposed emergency

   1:44:02access, but it doesn't mean that it's the

   Jon Moody

   1:44:04code. Well, they were nice enough to show us a conceptual plan. This is a Euclidean zoning here and there.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:44:13I agree, but if they're telling us that their emergency access is to Tupper, I think at least it needs to be disclosed that I'm not saying it's a condition, I'm saying I'm just saying we typically in our agenda memor say how they're accessing their property. If one of their potential accesses is an emergency access to Tupper Road, I think at least it needs to be set.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:44:32Yeah, I think that's good. We need to know that.

   1:44:37So um

   1:44:41Harbor, do you have I think we're done with comments from the audience. L listen, uh I'm gonna ask one more time for comments from the audience. If you know, we can't sit here all day and then somebody jump up. So if you wanna speak, come on up front here and get in a seat and let's let's hear you w what you got to say. I don't wanna leave anybody out, but I don't also don't wanna Just drag this on w unnecessarily.

   Margaret Velasco

   1:45:12Okay, my name is Margaret Velasco and I live at [address removed] in Wesley Chapel in the Saddle Ridge Estates. Um, I'm just one of those people with the horses and I only have two questions for the developer. I mean I brought a copy of Town Homes and I had a question is this similar to what they're gonna look like? There's six units My next question is coming down Bridleford, are they going to put a wall? around that whole

   1:45:42development that they're doing down the 300 acres that back up to me and I have five acres. Now that the property in question stops at my mailbox. And I have a hundred foot driveway that takes me into my house. But there would need to be a wall to block off from the 300 acres and then people from coming into our gated community.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:46:08Can you see the map again so she can point it out where she lives?

   Chris Williams

   1:46:11Yeah, I'm curious about the three hundred acres.

   Margaret Velasco

   1:46:15That's right next to me which backs up to where

   Charles GreyChair

   1:46:21you are. I'm

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   1:46:21not good at maps. At the end of Bradleford. But the northeast corner of the property.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:46:26Right at the top?

   Margaret Velasco

   1:46:27I'm at the back of Brighton. There it is. All the way to the back there. Right.

   Christopher Poole

   1:46:32Right there.

   Margaret Velasco

   1:46:43Right there. There you go. I'm already delayed. Right

   Charles GreyChair

   1:46:46there.

   Margaret Velasco

   1:46:49And you see the property in question is that square there and that's three hundred or so acres that goes down Tupper and and uh uh Mr. Shepherd used to own that and he has since passed away, cows there and everything. So that backs up to me. But are they going to put some kind of barrier down Bridalford across there? And and all those houses in Citrus Trace over there. They're all just bobwire. Everything's just bob wire right now. Except for half a

   1:47:19wall in in our subdivision. Okay. And that's my question. We'll

   Charles GreyChair

   1:47:22get that answered for you. Okay, thank you. Thank you. And was there anybody else? I know we've got one more. Anyone else?

   1:47:34You saved your best to last.

   Unidentified speakerVoice H

   1:47:37I'm Barbara Martin. I've been sworn in, and my address is [address removed]. I'm on the corner of Caroline Drive and Laughridge Place. Um I have one question about the Tupper Road and the emergency exit is that in my mind I'm thinking if you have an emergency exit and it's available to Yeah. What keeps it from not being an emergency exit and people using it as a convenient

   1:48:08way to get to fifty four?

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:48:10I

   Jon Moody

   1:48:10think they said it was gonna be gated.

   Unidentified speakerVoice H

   1:48:12It's not gated.

   Jon Moody

   1:48:13No no no that when they construct the development it would be gated and I think it's intended for the fire department or EMS to have emergency ingress into the development. If they need you know if the main road is blocked, they need a way to get a fire truck in the back side of this thing and that's how they would do it.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:48:30But ma'am, I just to address your concern, I was going to ask the applicant when they got up during rebuttal if they'd be okay adding a something to their deed restriction that said that any access to Tupper Road would be for emergency only engaged. I think that's their intent, it's just it's not Technically in the deed restrictions. And so I suspect they're gonna say yes to that when I ask that question, but I we I do intend to address that comment with the applicant.

   Unidentified speakerVoice H

   1:49:00Thank you. Um

   1:49:04It being a emergency use, does that mean if it's a county road they will pave it appropriately from where they need it all the way to fifty four, so that you won't have that flooding and that uh dust that flies up from the dirt road and the potholes that were there. So

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:49:24ma'am, typically county staff would not make somebody repave a road if it's only used for emergencies 'cause th th the use is too infrequent to justify that expense. I mean you're talking probably Once every five years an ambulance or police department would need to use the the gate. That's not frequent enough to justify paving the road.

   Unidentified speakerVoice H

   1:49:47Okay, well the the point that was made earlier is I have a hard time picturing a fire truck coming up that road because it's so narrow and it's so bumpy.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:49:57You'd be surprised what our fire trucks can do, yeah. I'm

   Unidentified speakerVoice H

   1:50:00sorry.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:50:00You said you would be surprised what our fire trucks can do. They probably have driven down roads much worse than Tupper Road.

   Unidentified speakerVoice H

   1:50:06All right, they're talented. Um the next question, the real concern that I have is speeding. I live right there on Caroline Drive and cars go so fast up and down the road. Um a neighbor would try to get out there if she ever saw one going fast she'd say, hi, to remind them that they're speeding, but it doesn't work. We've had signs put up, um, slow down, children at play. I had

   1:50:36one on my property and it got destroyed. Um I had a car. Uh I didn't see it happen, but I saw the results. come off the road, knock over one of my trees and into my wooden fence. uh because I figure speed. I don't know why else a car might have done that. So um I'm very concerned about the speeding and the fact that children

   1:51:07ride bikes, children skateboard, we have baby carriages for taking walks up and down that street. And There's no line in the middle of the street because actually there's just enough room for two cars to pass. You don't have an extra place to move. So when I'm walking on the side of the street or there's somebody jogging, the cars have to move over to the other side of the road to make sure everybody's safe. And uh if there are no sidewalks and no curbs

   1:51:37put in, then there's gonna be a real big hazard. I uh school buses stop there, children run across the road to get into the school bus. We wait at our door, we see the school bus as it comes up, then we let the children out of our doors to get to the bus. We're always standing there, always waiting for the bus when it comes in, just to make sure they are safe. Um Also, pets. I have a pet who's blind and I watch her very carefully, but sometimes she gets out of She

   1:52:08likes to go toward the road every now and then and I'm always pulling her back in. So when I go over to the side of the road to pull her back in, I'll have a car whiz right past me. So I'm really concerned about the speed on that road. I know in the past I've called the county to ask if there was some way that something they could do about that. I was told there wasn't enough manpower to do anything. Um I don't know how to get speed bumps and humps and that type of thing in, but I would not be uh

   1:52:38against that type of thing to help control the traffic, the speed of the traffic.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:52:43You must have read what's mine because I was gonna ask you that question.

   Unidentified speakerVoice H

   1:52:48Well I've tried, but I d I don't I'm I'm just a little grandma.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:52:52We appreciate you coming. You're we're well well over your time, but I wanted to make sure you had plenty of time to speak. So thank you very much.

   Unidentified speakerVoice H

   1:52:59Thank you.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:53:04I guess you weren't last.

   Bob Peller

   1:53:06Yeah, swear swear in.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:53:08Yeah have you been sworn?

   Bob Peller

   1:53:09My name is Bob Peller and I'm a thirty-one, thirty-two year resident of uh Citrus Trace.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:53:15What's your address, sir?

   Bob Peller

   1:53:16I'm sorry, [address removed].

   Charles GreyChair

   1:53:20And you've been sworn?

   Bob Peller

   1:53:21Yeah. Okay. Um some of the skepticism the people from Citrus Trace are are feeling as we step back in time a little bit is the bull that they were fed that the uh guy that puts out saddle ridge estate was going to take care of upgrading the road, which never got done. Also, somewhere along the line, we used to have signs out front that said citrus trays and saddle ridge estates. Those are no longer there. Somebody

   1:53:52got paid off to not put them back. But, you know, somebody apparently got money for not putting those signs back, but none of the residents were ever told who got the money and why those signs were never put back. Okay? That's one thing. But to to ask the residents of Citrus Trace to put 162 townhouses in the back of that is ludicrous idea. Of which David Goldstein

   1:54:22probably doesn't think that's uh uh out of line. You don't need to re but it

   Charles GreyChair

   1:54:27you don't need to refer to Mr. Goldstein.

   Bob Peller

   1:54:29It is truly out of line to even consider such a catastrophe to the area.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:54:35Well, you know what, sir? There's a lot of people that would consider that when you went there, the fact that you moved there was out of line. So don't be so self-righteous. There are a lot of people that have been here a lot longer than you. I I'm not sure. So don't start disputing that stuff. Don't start talking down to David here or anybody else on this board. We're here to try to help the citizens. We're sitting here listening to your argument. Just think about and don't don't get up there and start trying to bully people. It's not gonna happen.

   Bob Peller

   1:55:04You're gonna ask me to leave? Okay. I will if

   Charles GreyChair

   1:55:07you get out of line. Darn right I will.

   Bob Peller

   1:55:10I'm stating the truth, okay? We were fed a bunch of baloney about all the stuff that went on already, and somebody from the Pasco County Department of whatever wasn't watching anything.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:55:22Well are you were you what were you watching

   Bob Peller

   1:55:25if and when

   Charles GreyChair

   1:55:28What were you watching?

   Bob Peller

   1:55:30Do

   Charles GreyChair

   1:55:30you have no responsibility at all?

   Bob Peller

   1:55:32If in Wayne Is that

   Charles GreyChair

   1:55:33what you're telling us?

   Bob Peller

   1:55:34Yeah, I yeah, okay. Put it back on me. If in Wayne you allowed the 162 townhouses to be put in, That road should be Dicks from day one will notify guys come in. They should do the improvements to the road.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:55:51We've already talked about

   Bob Peller

   1:55:52it. Okay, I'm just making sure on my part. See I'm hearing impai impaired. I probably didn't hear it. Okay, coming down from Zephyrhills. Going west, there should also be a turn lane put in for Citrus Trace and Saddle Ridge and whatever they're gonna call this this uh townhouse subdivision. Okay. And no nobody's mentioned that. Already we

   1:56:22can't get in and out of the street.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:56:23Somebody's already asked that question and I hopefully get an answer.

   Bob Peller

   1:56:27Do you have any idea what they installed at the end of the street to count?

   Charles GreyChair

   1:56:32Sorry your time is up, sir.

   Bob Peller

   1:56:34Yeah. Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry if I came off a little brash, but you know, I've listened to

   Charles GreyChair

   1:56:40it just doesn't help when you do that. You know, we're not trying to be rude to each other. Let's be be civil if you have a concern. We want to hear about it.

   Bob Peller

   1:56:47The the bottom line is, you know, if people would put themselves in in the place of the residents of Citrus Trace and what they're trying to do. and use a road that's barely okay for the s the residents there now. I mean you somebody has to show how they're gonna handle that, rather than just uh put it before the board.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:57:14So

   1:57:20He's your fr he's your friend.

   1:57:29Yes, ma'am.

   Unidentified speakerVoice I

   1:57:29My name is Teresa Baylesheimer and I live at [address removed] in Saddlebridge Estates.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:57:36And

   Unidentified speakerVoice I

   1:57:36you've been sworn? Yes, I was here when that happened. I didn't plan on speaking today, but I think that's something that has not been addressed. One, I have a question is whether or not this community is going to be gated or not gated. I guess we can find that up from them. When we come out of I have to drive down Caroline Drive every day. Um to go out and to go west on 54 because I go to work in town. Um it's a problem to get out because I don't know if you guys have been out there

   1:58:06or not, but 54 is 65 miles an hour and you better get going or you're gonna get run over. Um so we go out that way. Coming back home If if if I go out and turn right and I want to go towards Zephyrhills, I have to get in the far left lane, stop at the light at Saddlebrook, make a U-turn to go that way. So you're gonna have another hundred and sixty two homes if they want to go. east they have to go that

   Charles GreyChair

   1:58:34way.

   Unidentified speakerVoice I

   1:58:34Um also coming home from work at night, we had back in the day we had some people in our community fight for us to have a what do you call egress lane or whatever put in on the left hand side to be able to turn into our neighborhood. If you're gonna add 162 more homes to that drive you're going to have to we're gonna Look like 56. We're gonna our butts are gonna be out on 54, stacked up, trying to turn left onto Caroline Drive. That I think

   1:59:04needs to be addressed before they decide to put 162 homes in them. That is a tr that's a safety traffic issue. Um And I have one other topic talk about.

   1:59:18I can't remember. But those are my con the traffic is my concern. Okay. Not only oh, Caroline Drive. They're gonna pay Caroline Drive, that's beautiful. They're gonna put curbs on Caroline Drive, that's beautiful. They're gonna put sidewalks. There's easement on this on their property, so the the sidewalks are going on their easement, question mark.

   Charles GreyChair

   1:59:38We'll get those answered for

   Unidentified speakerVoice I

   1:59:39you. That's all I have. Thank you very

   Charles GreyChair

   1:59:41much. Okay.

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   1:59:46Oh the script I've got.

   1:59:50Five dollars for the script. Me and Copa.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   1:59:52Do as I say, how does that

   1:59:56Denise, do we have anybody on WebEx for this item?

   Denise

   1:59:59We don't have anyone on WebEx for this item or for any of the items on today's agenda. The folks who are on WebEx are staff members. Thank you.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:00:06Okay. So if we've had everybody speak Oh, sorry.

   Unidentified speakerVoice B

   2:00:12What did the pay at the door?

   Charles GreyChair

   2:00:15Steve, I'm in a meeting. Call me back.

   2:00:23Sorry about

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:00:23that. I guess Clark's not the only one getting fined.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   2:00:31Wait till his pager goes off.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:00:38I will have Steve Henry address traffic um and some of the things that you've heard in a moment. I think the school board um member Mr. Tanella went through with regard to schools and I know that the school board knows about all the development that you're doing. They review, they sit here on this planning commission. We also, they know every home when plans come in, they have a review process. They know about every home that comes in before it's constructed and they're planning for those things. Um We have a very good school board. The

   2:01:09uh water and sewer the developer pays for water and sewer. It'll be county water and sewer. The water, sewer and reclaim water are all at the property. Mm-hmm.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:01:22It's already at the property, you said.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:01:26Homes versus townhomes, we talk about that a lot. I have heard a lot in my 25 years doing this. They're homes. They're just attached versus detached. And there's benefits to townhomes. One is that this the pool area is centralized. Single family homes we have pools in our backyard and these pools can be five feet from the property line. It's a benefit of townhomes. The other thing I always say about townhomes or for single family are townhomes are commonly maintained. So if you live in a town home, you pay your

   2:01:56HOA to maintain your roof. your paint, your shrubs, your your grass, and the landscaping and common areas. In a single family subdivision, single family detached homes, you pay your homeowners association to chase your neighbor to try to get them to comply. So that is a benefit when you talk about a town home and attached product versus a single family product.

   Chris Williams

   2:02:19Excuse me for a minute. Can we could we put that uh View of the development of the easement.

   2:02:43Thank you.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:02:50Just making sure I address everybody that spoke.

   2:02:55I think the Tupper Road and emergency access has been talked about quite a bit. Yes, I'm agreeable our my clients agreeable to the deed restriction discussed, which would say that along the lines of access to Tupper Road will be emergency access only and gated um for no resident access. And we can certainly work out that language with the county attorney's office and staff.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:03:16So Barbara, can I ask a question about that? 'Cause I I know I asked the question earlier, but I have a question for you and the Planning Commission 'cause I somewhat torn on the issue.

   2:03:29I understand why it's emergency access because it's a dirt road and it's makes sense. I guess my question is Can you put the if you could put the vision network, road network back up?

   2:03:47And I'm not expressing any opinion whatsoever on this. I'm just asking a question for you. And the Planning Commission, which is At some point that vision road is going to connect all the way up to the new overpass road and then eventually the overpass interchange. And so I gotta imagine at some point in the future that road will exist and Tupper Road will exist As a paved road. And I guess the question is at that point should it become another way

   2:04:17out for this project. I mean I understand d don't get me wrong, I understand why it's emergency today. But the question is, should it always be emergency?

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:04:30Certainly could write some kind of standard language into the deed restriction that o provides for that in the future so that the deed restriction wouldn't preclude that from happening when it's a

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:04:40I mean 'cause the residents have raised some legitimate concerns about all the traffic dumping on fifty four. And we can let Steve Henry address that issue. But the county's plans for this area is to relieve 54. Through the new interchange at Overpass. And this Vision Road is supposed to bring traffic from 54, it's the Bruce B extension of Bruce Bowns all the way up to Overpass Road so people can access the new interchange. That's less likely to occur from your project if

   2:05:12In the distant future, whenever this roadway network exists, you have no ability to get over to that road up to overpass interchange.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:05:19I agree. And if we do a deed restriction that says for the forever it'll only be emergency access, we would preclude that from happening. So we could have to do that.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:05:31To County Space and this vision road actually connects to Overpass and then we It would be kind of silly to then say, Well, Paul your traffic still has to go to fifty four. When we built this great new road network to save to save fifty four. That's that's my concern. But th this isn't my decision. I mean it it's up to the Planning Commission if you what you do. I'm just throwing it out for consideration.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:05:54I think that would be good planning to make sure that we didn't preclude that in the future from happening. But I'm okay either way.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:06:03But yeah, a Planning Commission wants it to be permanently in emergency. We've that could be drafted. I just you all need to weigh in on that.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:06:11Comments?

   Chris Williams

   2:06:13Do you have a projected date on that particular road? 'Cause it's come up in the past. So

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:06:20no. But the but you could draft the language that says that it would remain emergency until Tupper's paved and the Vision Network connects to overpass road. I mean, that may be forty, fifty years from now, I don't know. But and I understand why it should be emergency in Till then I'm not suggesting that but The point is what the county likes to plan for the future and I'm Barbara's correct that the county has a plan to save or try to re alleviate traffic

   2:06:50on fifty-four through this vision network. And so it doesn't I'm only pointing out that if we restricted the emergency access to Tupper based on its condition today That doesn't allow this project to take advantage of that future vision network whenever it exists. It may be 40-50 years from now, but the county just spent a lot of money building a new interchange at Overpass Road. True. And part of it was to allow other people to to relieve the 54 interchange. So it's

   2:07:21it's up to you all. I'm saying one might argue that it's a mistake. State to not take advantage of that of of this potential future network.

   Jon Moody

   2:07:30Technical question about that. in the Manual that we're gonna talk about later. There's a discussion about emergency accesses and being constructed out of geo grid and the like. Is this per is this emergency access proposed to be paved as if it were a county road, or is it proposed to be stabilized as per what's in the manual? we'll discuss later.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:08:00I'm not sure I have an answer to that 'cause we're not at construction plan level of detail.

   Jon Moody

   2:08:04Because that would affect what David is asking if this happens, if these vision roads or Tupper roads constructed 10 years, 20 years down the road, and we have a just a stabilized emergency access, not a paved emergency access. How then you've got a s kind of a substandard connection you're

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:08:24making. Let me put it this way. I suspect if you ask Barbara whether they should be willing to restrict it to it being paid, they'd probably say yes. I mean you can't impose that 'cause it's a deed restriction, but The incremental cost if they're already paving to you know very close to the Tupperwood connection. I don't know why that's a huge incremental cost for them.

   Jon Moody

   2:08:48I'm not arguing it is. In fact, I told the county engineer that I thought it was more expensive to build the geo-grid pig section than it was to pave the road, but... But I just curious if there if it's going to be just a stabilized access and this happens twenty years from now, I'm not expecting this developer is going to be controlling this thing twenty years from now. He's long gone and you got an HOA. What's the impetus

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:09:11to actually make that? Okay, let me put

   Jon Moody

   2:09:12it

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:09:13this way. I expect suspect that staff, Barbara and myself could work out the exact language to address your concern. The real issue is whether you want the ability for an ac like access to Tupper Road in the event this future road name roadway network develops, whether you want it to potentially be another way out for this project. If you if you're comfortable with all their access being Caroline Drive and that just permanently an emergency connection, that's okay too. I

   2:09:43I'm just saying the Barbara Staff and I can draft a language to make this work. I I'm just asking you the big picture policy question. You all are the Planning Commission. You plan. Okay. You could argue that that maybe some point in the future that shouldn't be an emergency connection. That's all I'm saying. But you all needed to make that decision or the board needed to make that decision.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   2:10:05I think we're being short-sighted not too consider a future roadway network with the amount of infrastructure the county has planned as far as their vision roads go. Agreed.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:10:17Okay. Uh all right. Let's move on to to another concern that they have. Marvin, you have your list?

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:10:24Sure.

   2:10:27Cooper Road isn't uh is not as you saw it was not it's not adjacent to this property, it's to the north.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:10:33Right.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:10:33But we will have an interconnection to the north because the county requires those interconnections.

   2:10:39Um The the property owner that uh lives in Saddlebridge talking about three hundred acres to her to her west. She lives the pro adjacent to the property north of us. We're forty acres. So I just wanted to make that, you know, that isn't mere that's not us. Um

   Charles GreyChair

   2:10:58I think her question was about the wall.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:11:00But we're not adjacent to her. She's asking about a a parcel that's not we're not the adjacent parcel to her.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:11:06Good question when that part of what she's asking on what border is your wall gonna occ occupy? North, south, east, west. I

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   2:11:14don't think there's gonna be a wall.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:11:16Well that's what I'm asking.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:11:17Yes, we're not proposing any wall.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:11:19What is it gonna be?

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:11:21Along our eastern boundary?

   Charles GreyChair

   2:11:23What kind of separation is there gonna be? What's what's is type A, type B? What what is it?

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:11:30Okay. You want to add that?

   2:11:36So we're required to do the as we always say here, and we always stand here and say we have to do the landscape buffer to county requirements and there's already a landscape buffering, but my client said we can add to the deed restriction along our eastern boundary um a requirement for a six foot fence in addition within the the required landscape buffer if we can. So should

   Charles GreyChair

   2:11:58be free to add that.

   Jon Moody

   2:11:59Okay. Brad, can you tell us what buffer would be required there right now?

   Roberto Saez

   2:12:13We walk all the way up here? Uh Brad tip and playing development. Yeah, uh typically I think uh Ms. Willheid uh maybe mentioned it earlier on, uh, but these are residential uses to residential uses, so there's really no buffering technically required. However, we do re we buffer to roadways based on what's across the street. So you have residential to residential. They're gonna put a buffer in along that area. Uh but it is not required to have a wall. It's not required Right. If they want to put that in, they can Yeah, it would be voluntary

   2:12:43for them to put that in. So Yeah.

   Chris Williams

   2:12:48All right. Well before you move on, w if you look at this and I've had experience, I'm sure others have The townhomes, I appreciate that because they're they are better than apartments. I don't mean better in the sense that they are better, they're just different. But you still have the high density residency in townhomes. And the concern I would have if I was living in one of these homes to the to the to the east, it looks like about four of them, is

   2:13:18that there's a tendency. With high density to have a little bit more noise in them, whether it be radio, TV, or just a company that shows up and you have a party. That's what I would look at, and I would encourage some higher density barrier between the surrounding area, because noise is in itself, excuse me, in itself can be A distraction to if you look at these homes that are around it, they're all basically larger

   2:13:49homes, not estate homes, but they are. larger homes who have over the years enjoyed peace and quiet. So if

   2:14:00I think the noise concept of trying to reduce in it should play in development there with landscaping. I think what you have done what they have done here is it's a nice looking facility in the fact that you have the water features there and that it would appear that you might even have a a sprinkling uh a fountain system in place. Um but I don't want to belabor the point. I know you have more things to but since you came up with

   2:14:30ordering of the area and the calming of noise from that particular project should be considered for the residents there to make it more appealing to them, especially the neighbors.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:14:43So I think I gave you a a dimension of the closest on our eastern boundary, the closest our home will be to to one of the other homes is a hundred and thirteen feet, but we'll be forty feet back from the property line. So it's a hundred and fifty three feet. Between uh existing home and one of our homes That's a that's a long way. Um the requirement in MF one is fifteen feet, so we could probably we could add to the D restriction, make it 'cause right requirements forty fifteen feet.

   2:15:14We can make it forty. And again, um, you know, we won't have pools in our backyard so we're not that's that's the benefit 'cause right now under the current zoning, single family homes, pools, pools five feet from the property line, noise. But that's one of the benefits of townhomes is you have a central amenity as opposed to an amenity in everybody's backyard. But we'll we'll s put into the D restriction, we'll stay forty feet off of the property line with any of our homes. And I think that that provides a significant uh difference as to what could be which

   2:15:44could be fifteen feet. under M F one.

   2:15:49Does that address Mr. Hansel?

   Chris Williams

   2:15:52Well, I spent a lot of time with the infantry units and I know at night and I hate to bring this up, I know at night time you could noise tends to be a little bit more uh I don't know if the word hearable is a word, but you can hear audio noises from a greater distance in the evening time, especially at night. That's all. Just and that just from practical experience spending time

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:16:15Well we'll keep our homes forty feet off of the property line. We'll put a fence we'll put a fence in that's above code. I I think those should mitigate those those issues. Common amenity.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:16:31Well I think one of the biggest issues that that everybody seemed to talk about was Caroline. How it was gonna be paved, whether there were gonna be sidewalks and curbs and

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:16:42I will let

   Charles GreyChair

   2:16:43What then Excel and Excel lanes and

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:16:46I will let Mr. Henry talk about all those things for you. Thank

   Charles GreyChair

   2:16:51you Mr. Andrew.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   2:16:52Is this subversion going to be gated or not gated?

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:16:55Do you know? Gated.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   2:16:58Thank you.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:16:59Yes, I forgot to answer that question. Thank you.

   Henry

   2:17:02Good afternoon. Steve Henry again. Uh so to answer your question, uh one starting with the uh access to 54. So as a part of this anal part of this development of this property, we'll have to do an access management analysis, which will have to evaluate the intersection of Caroline and 54. We'll have to look at the left turn lane that's out there today to determine whether it's long enough. Today it's about 260 feet. Actually, room between that one and left turn lane for Saddlebrook Way to extend it 300 feet. So between look

   2:17:33and we'll have to look at the U-turns at Saddlebrook Way. So we'll have to assess both of those turn lanes to make sure they're long enough to accommodate the existing traffic plus the addition of our traffic to that. And if they're not, then we'll have to lengthen those those turn lanes. As far as the um Um the improvements to uh Caroline Drive. Uh we've actually gone actually already gone out there and done the geotech to look at that to see what's actually out there and we've we've done you know what what the as far as the additional pavement that's needed

   2:18:03to meet the Kerr County standards for a local road. So what is that? What is that? We'll be adding about two inches of asphalt. Okay, which is what my guess was and I asked could we save those

   Jon Moody

   2:18:13pictures? Yeah, we'll have

   Henry

   2:18:16to mill,

   Jon Moody

   2:18:16which is not much left there.

   2:18:20Because what of my one of my concerns is if you overlay that street two inches, we're gonna have driveways that aren't gonna be able

   Henry

   2:18:26to

   Jon Moody

   2:18:26drain

   Henry

   2:18:27the race. Um so we we intend to do that. Um now that that and that's part of the do you have another question or we can ask

   Jon Moody

   2:18:35you. Yeah, I do have another question. Does the county still have a traffic calming device program? There used to be a program where you could petition. It requires votes by the by by the adjacent property. Right.

   2:18:51As a traffic engineer. I mean and I I hear their concerns of the residents. I and that's why I asked you earlier what was the speed limit on the road. Caroline's a straight road. Right now it's in poor condition. We're gonna pave it. I see a drag strip coming in the future. Um Is there a safety problem with putting a traffic coming, whether it be speed tables or whatever the case may be? To

   2:19:23to try to slow that down. That's

   Henry

   2:19:24you know, I mean is there a safety issue? No. Uh you know, it always gets into half the people love 'em. Well half the people hate 'em and so they make

   Unidentified speakerVoice E

   2:19:33relationship with those things too.

   Henry

   2:19:34And and so that that becomes the question is you know, you know, i if the residents want it and I I obviously I'll know the collecting to my developer who says yes, he'd be willing to entertain that's It

   Jon Moody

   2:19:47would would a speed cable assuage your concern about speeding down Caroline Drive? If they were to put in some traffic calming devices to make sure you couldn't use it as a drag strip? You can just show me your hands.

   Unidentified speakerVoice J

   2:20:03Yes.

   Jon Moody

   2:20:05I think the fancier terms now is they're more like speed tables. They're not just like a the old fashioned speed bump you had in the shopping center.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:20:14Mr. Middy, I am a little concerned about making this decision based on a showing of hands because I Mr. Henry Well they haven't shown me any hands

   2:20:25even if they did the they may not represent all the residents on Caroline Drive. I think Mr. Henry's correct when you put these two a vote on speed tables sometimes there's a majority that want them, sometimes there's a majority that don't. Oh so if that's your Intent, we could probably get across some some language that says that if a majority of the residents, through the normal county's normal process of determining that, Uh want the speed tables that they had agreed to pay for them. But I hate to just do

   2:20:55that on the fly here when we don't have all the residents all in Carolina Drive. Am I making

   Jon Moody

   2:21:01sense? Well I understand that, but they've expressed the concern. I'm not convinced that I like the speed table idea either. I'm trying to ferret that out. That's why I asked are there safety issues with these things too. So

   Henry

   2:21:13Yeah, and I don't believe that

   2:21:16I don't know how the fire department likes those or doesn't like them. They do say that it it slows down their response time to to get in emergency vehicles. So I mean there's a there's pluses and minuses to them. Um my

   Charles GreyChair

   2:21:29sense is the bigger concern really that's beating is probably this sidewalks

   Henry

   2:21:35and curbs. Right. And we're doing the what's required of From a from a substandard road standpoint for the roadway, which does not include sidewalks or curb and gutter. So we would not be putting in curb and gutter. Curb and gutter would be tough to do on a rural roadway, trying to put in the drainage for that being very expensive, if it would even work, we don't know if the grades would work on that road.

   School District Representative

   2:22:04Correct. Yeah.

   Henry

   2:22:07Uh

   Charles GreyChair

   2:22:07we are we are intentional. It's not not an issue. It may be not for the schools, but it could be for the residents. Because as people do use they walk their dogs and the babies and

   Henry

   2:22:19correct, but it again it you know what we're proposing is less traffic. And also typically

   Charles GreyChair

   2:22:25Well that's that's gonna be a hard one to sell, less traffic. There's gonna be more traffic. So it my my only par point is and I'm trying to be as consider it as I can on both sides. Sure. That In you know, in order for me to feel comfortable about approving a new development It needs to bring something to the existing area that they don't have. It can't just take So if

   2:22:55it doesn't enhance the adjoining areas in some way, some significant way, then why put it there? It's not ready for it. So uh um Well I don't think that's what we're doing. So we try I do miss it. And that's

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:23:11what I'm talking about when

   Charles GreyChair

   2:23:12I'm

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:23:12talking about Mr Chair, I don't disagree with you but I do have a question for staff or Mr Henry, whoever knows. Do we have enough right-of-way on Carolina Drive to our sidewalks? 'Cause typically if it's the county maintain road, this is to my earlier point, the county owns what we maintain. So we clearly own existing Caroline Drive. We don't necessarily have right away beyond the pavement for a sidewalk, but I don't We may we may not, I don't know.

   2:23:42I that's why I'm asking the question.

   Henry

   2:23:47I think it was sixty feet of right away. Yeah.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:23:50So is that sufficient to add sidewalks? I'm asking.

   Henry

   2:23:53We do it in fifties in neighborhoods.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:23:56So then I think

   Henry

   2:23:56it's

   2:23:56a good thing.

   2:23:59Then there is

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:23:59sufficient

   Henry

   2:23:59rate. Sorry, this doesn't have curb and gutter and what what effect that sidewalk would have on the drainage, the lawns, that type of thing would would we we don't know that at this point in time.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:24:08Well let me ask you and Barbara a question. Is there a middle ground if the county were to give bike ped mobility fee credits for the sidewalk? Would that

   2:24:17Since I agree it's not required by our nine oh one point four.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:24:23Try to do some calculations over here real quick. But uh Okay. It it's right-way portion. I mean it's bag bike pad portion, so that's just a portion of that fee. Well you can't do the calculation that quick, but uh Thanks.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:24:40Well I'm just one person. I they m uh they may not agree with me. But I I unless I feel that you're enhancing the area, I'm not gonna vote for it. So I'm just telling you ahead of time.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:24:49Well we are paving a road that we I mean by caves.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:24:52Well you

   2:24:52know,

   2:24:53that could be an enhancement, but it's not a great enhancement. They already have a road they can occupy. I I want something that is gonna provide some safety and, you know, quality of life issues that are gonna accompany these people that already live there. So Uh you know, we gotta l look out for our citizens, that's all I'm telling you.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:25:14But I'm following the code. And the code says that I have to prepare a prop share and we're gonna do it. You don't have to do

   Charles GreyChair

   2:25:19it. You don't have to do it.

   2:25:24We can't require it, I understand that, but we also don't have to approve it.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:25:29Well I'm I am following all the rules and comp plan and all the things, so I mean

   2:25:36If we can have a delay so we can do the calculation, which is hard for us to do that on the fly. So and my client I don't know if you have another item we can go to and then come back, let him look at it.

   2:25:47Yeah, we can do that. Yeah, we can do that.

   Henry

   2:25:51I'll ask.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:25:56I think

   Charles GreyChair

   2:25:57We just take a five minute recess to give

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:25:58you

   Charles GreyChair

   2:25:59a chance to calculate.

   2:26:04Okay. Taking a recess, five minutes.

   Jon Moody

   2:36:28Gotcha. I was gonna tell him he kept going. I was wanted to say, Sir, look to your right. Look to your right.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:36:36I know. Yeah. When they start that passage across.

   2:36:48It really irritates me when it starts pointing his finger at people.

   Denise

   2:36:54The delay.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:36:59We can take our seats, please.

   Henry

   2:37:12Yeah.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:37:14All right. I think we can start again.

   Henry

   2:37:16All right, Steve Henry again. Uh so Dr. Velbert, he's willing to construct the sidewalk uh on one side of the road. Obviously not both sides, but we're willing to construct it on one side of the road.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:37:28And that's for credit against the bike fed part of the movie.

   Henry

   2:37:38the developer's agreement and the credits awards. So but we don't want the ability at least to have if if we wanted to request but not the not the requirement.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:37:46Okay, so that would be some future deal right all the determination is going to say that you're going to do it with the possibility of maybe in the future credit doing an agreement for credits. We can get that that yeah. But you're committing to do the sidewalk whether you're

   Henry

   2:38:00gonna need it as a sidewalk here, sidewalk. We just want the ability to request it in the future.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:38:05And you're gonna do that right up front.

   Henry

   2:38:07Yes. We do that again. While you're paving the road basically. Correct. It will be done prior to the final the first final building inspection.

   School District Representative

   2:38:17Can I ask you a question on that? If the because what I see in in the past is These big trucks come along and they're Building the houses and building everything and then does it make sense to pave the road first or after and I don't know.

   2:38:33After Yeah. I mean you build the road, then the tr construction starts, the trucks are coming up and down the road, ruining the road. It's it better to do that afterwards. And I don't know the answer, I'm just asking.

   Henry

   2:38:53Typically we we would pave it the same time we paved the streets within Could be the prime. So which which would be all have to be done prior to the the uh basically the

   Jon Moody

   2:39:06defining. It's two inches of asphalt and that's fine for for the short time they're under construction, I would tell you that they can probably more than absorb the construction traffic at that. If we were doing a shopping center, we'd have two inches as heavy duty pavement where the delivery area is all.

   School District Representative

   2:39:22Okay, good, thank you.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:39:24I would say is to follow up what Steve said is the really heavy equipment is when they're doing the site work.

   School District Representative

   2:39:29Mm-hmm.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:39:30Yeah. When they get to the building, the building the the houses it's not nearly as heavy as equipment. So Mostly Batarch. And that so and he's gonna be doing all the painting of their internal roads with this too. So I think It probably should work out.

   School District Representative

   2:39:45Okay. And then just for everyone's uh just recap everything that's gonna be done so they know what we know.

   Henry

   2:39:52So we're going to pave Caroline Drive from 54 to our project to County Local Street Standards, and then we will construct sidewalk on one side of the road from 54 to our project.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:40:05And whatever turn lanes are required at Access Management

   Henry

   2:40:08Review? Correct. And whatever extensions to the turn lanes may be necessary at fifty four and uh Caroline Draft, yes.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:40:15Okay. So you're doing you're doing all that part of the first building inspection for a building.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:40:23Okay. The next thing on my list was there's a lot of questions about traffic how you arrive at traffic counts. how how traffic affects the roadway. Um, is there some formula that you use other than just multiply the number of homes by two?

   Henry

   2:40:41Well no, we we what we use is the Institute of Transportation Engineers. So they've done hundreds upon hundreds of studies. In fact it's now it's four volumes of of different uh trip generation studies and uses that have been done. So they've done studies on single family homes, town homes, multifamily. And so what we use here is townhome. They actually have a land use for townhomes, single family attack. Units. And we use that trip generation based on hundreds of studies that have been done to estimate what the

   2:41:11daily traffic is, the AM peak hour, and the PM peak hour.

   Jon Moody

   2:41:17What's the average

   Henry

   2:41:18daily traffic? The average daily traffic is about seven point three. trips per home for town homes and it's about it's almost ten for single family. So single family will generate more traffic and typically that's because single family tends to have more kids and activity than a town home does.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:41:40So you we we're not it doesn't really relate directly to the number of cars that the people may own. It's the how many times they drive their car. Right. Right. So it's it's trip generation, not how many cars are there.

   Henry

   2:41:54Correct. It what what they have done is on again hundreds of they go out and put a hose across a driveway and they count the number of cars that come in and out. Not how many cars people own within the development, but how many cars cross that hose on a daily basis during the AM and PM peak out, and that's what they use. And they and again they've broken it out into the various different types of land uses to come up with what those trip rates are for various

   Jon Moody

   2:42:17land uses. Fourteen hundred trips, total trips up and down up and down Caroline Drive after they're built out.

   Henry

   2:42:25It's uh about eleven hundred additional we generally.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:42:28Eleven hundred per

   Henry

   2:42:30For day. Okay. But again, i i if you develop it as a single family, it would be more than what than what we're proposing. So that's it. Granted it's an increase, it's definitely an increase, but I think we're hopefully we're offsetting that by paving the road and putting the sidewalk in. But it is definitely a decrease over what could be there today based on the existing zone.

   Unidentified speakerVoice K

   2:42:55Okay.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:42:59Um

   2:43:02What else do we have on our list?

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:43:05So was the consensus of Planning Commission that the connection to Tucker be emergency only until Pepper wrote and the his page and the vision air report exists. That's right.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:43:20Yes. I was going to kind of tally up I've said a lot of things that I'm going to be doing the deed restrictions. I was gonna give you a tally.

   Jon Moody

   2:43:28She's shouting all the goodies and

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:43:30bag. I I've

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:43:31stood up here and said yes I'll agree with

   2:43:32that.

   2:43:36Yes.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:43:38Amending my voluntary deed restriction. Voluntarily. Yeah. So just to kind of tally what that is, we're gonna we're gonna pave Caroline Drive to County Standards. And this wording is not exactly right because we'll get it exactly right with staff and the County Attorney's Office. But here's the concept. We're gonna pave Caroline Drive from State Road 50 to County Standards, from State Road 52 to the project access. We're gonna do 54. Ooh, that would be a long way. Yes. 54 to the project access. We're gonna put a sidewalk on one side. Side. And

   2:44:08we have the timing of that. Will be those will be completed prior to the first um building inspection the final building inspection for the first unit. We're gonna have the emergency access Tupper language, Tupper Road Language, as described by Mr. Goldstein. We've agreed to a 40-foot building setback line, building setback, building line setback from the external property line that goes all the way around. I know we were talking about the eastern boundary, but that commitment is for the entire project. The six-foot solid fence surrounding

   2:44:40the project, we talked about it for just that eastern boundary, but the client's commitment is for the project as a whole. And we already have in the deed restriction no apartments. I just like to say that 'cause a lot of people stand up and say apartments and it's townhomes and so it's in the deed restriction already and it'll stay in there about no apartments. That's the tally of things that we're agreeing to add to the deed restriction and we would

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:45:00So so Barbara, the only thing I h didn't hear you say that Steve said was that when you're doing the road you're also gonna do the intersection improvements. Uh fifty four in Carolina.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:45:10We're gonna do the access management analysis and our access management analysis will include that intersection.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:45:15I just want to make sure that those are being done the same time as you're doing Caroline on the sidewalk.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:45:22Yes.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:45:23Okay.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:45:24Yes. Any access management improvements.

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:45:26Whatever comes out of the analysis you'll do the same time as you're doing the Carolina cycle. Yes. Okay.

   Christopher Poole

   2:45:33How does the west side of Carolyn get finished? Is that curved or is that How is that gonna be finished?

   Henry

   2:45:44No, i it it'll say like as it is or rule but

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:45:47Okay. I think Mr. Henry's correct. It was very difficult to retrofit a road and put a curb and gutter. There's no place to pipe the water to.

   Jon Moody

   2:45:59Just then there's a cost of piping and rights

   Jaimie GirardiVice Chair

   2:46:02and

   Jon Moody

   2:46:02uh.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:46:02And the sidewalk will include language about we can seek mobility fee credits. We're a quick calculation there is it's only about fourteen thousand. I think the application fee for a development agreement is about ten. Of course my fees. So we may never seek the development agreement. But that's just to show tell you kind of the the magnitude of the commitment to do that sidewalk. Mobility fees aren't gonna cover it by far, uh the credits, but my clients would be able to do it and we would uh welcome your support of the project. Thank you.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:46:29Um, just a c one curious question more. Is that sidewalk, how how wide will that be? Five feet.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:46:38Five feet.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:46:43Okay.

   2:46:47Alright. What else from up here? Anyway.

   Jon Moody

   2:46:50I think it sounds like it's better than what they got now. Okay.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:46:56So is that a motion?

   Jon Moody

   2:46:58Uh I'm gonna need some help from the assistant county attorney over here as to the goodies in the deed, the voluntary Well do you just move approval with the I would move approval with the

   2:47:12deed restrictions just discussed by Ms. Will Hyde. By Ms. Will Hyde.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:47:18Okay, so we have to motion. I'll second. There was a second. All right, discussion on the motion.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   2:47:25Well I I think I'll I'll add here, I mean it it's important to note that We go back to the whole property rights issue and in Hmm. The property owner still even though I know they're gonna add units and and the adjacent residents may not necessarily like the type of units that are being added. Um I think we've talked extensively, I mean the the proposed number of units is far less than what they could seek. And I believe they've already talked about the densities lower than what they could

   2:47:56provide without the the modifications of the zoning now. So the arguments about traffic, I mean I I applaud the the developer for all the concessions and all the things he's offered here. Um again, they are voluntary and just by definition that's voluntary. Um I mean again I guess it really in summaries I mean the The property owner does have a right to develop his property, has a right to build something there. Um And that's why I mean I'm all support this the

   2:48:26way it's it's proposed in in the motion that's on the floor.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:48:31Okay. Any other comments?

   Chris Williams

   2:48:32Uh uh excuse me. It was not too long ago that an individual had a piece of property that he wanted to subdivide basically in the same area. And I look at the homes around it and I see larger lots. And there is a concern that has not really been cleared up in my mind of tra of traffic. But no matter what, traffic will

   2:49:03always be there and will always be an issue. But that's the issue I have is the fact that not that long ago we indicated that it was not appropriate for the commun the area. This is roughly forty-some acres of property that I think could be subdivided into homesteads instead of town homes. Uh therefore I I do have a little difficulty supporting the issue. I am concerned and understand property rights. But

   2:49:33anyway. That's the end of my remarks. All right, Peter. Thank you.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   2:49:39Sure. I mean that just so you understand, Peter, that the zoning he has now allows much smaller lots than the surrounding lots. I understand. I just want to make sure that was understood.

   Jon Moody

   2:49:49I do understand that. I think the difference between the case at the far end the tougher road that we heard the last time we were here at Dade City was The the biggest issue was tougher road. The condition of tougher road and there was no there was no mechanism in that proposal to pave the road. That's different here. And now we've not only got a mechanism to pave the road, but we just got a mechanism to get a sidewalk that we didn't get out

   2:50:19of the previous hearing we had today, which School board had concerns with the right-of-way. So to me it was a balance and I'll tell you when I first saw the case too I said, oh my god, what are they doing? They we just turned one down in the same neighborhood but I think the circumstances of this are different.

   Chris Williams

   2:50:38I understand that uh we all have uh

   2:50:43different types of class glasses to see items being that are brought before this board. But I just indicated one of them was you said about the tupper road and subdividing down there. But I also look at the property around this forty-four acre or forty acre piece of parcel that could be developed into I think larger homes, but uh That's how I feel about it. So y I think that's enough said. So I'll just call the

   2:51:13motion. That way we can end it.

   Christopher Poole

   2:51:18I'll I'll just go on the record and commend the developer for his commitment to doing the improvements out there, including the six foot fans in the paving. I think that's that's far far above what so I commend you for making that commitment.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:51:38Yeah well as I said before, I think I I just always and I think all of us up here always try to balance It's it's a balancing act 'cause you have to balance the rights of a property owner with the rights and the expectations of the current citizens in the area. So what we try to do is push and pull until we c feel like we can we have a reasonable balance in that area. And it's not not perfect. It's never gonna be perfect, but the world s keeps changing.

   2:52:09I don't always like what it ch how how it changes and no some other people don't either, but Uh we have to make it the best we can. uh within the boundaries that we have to work with and I think that's what we're trying to do. Listen to everybody's concerns. Put ourselves in Not only your position, but the position of the property owner and the developer too. We don't owe it to a developer to guarantee a profit. w we do owe it to make sure that if he comes in there

   2:52:39and does a good job that that we give them the opportunity and as long as we feel like we're protecting the residents then I think we've done our job. So uh I'd like to thank everybody for um their comments and their participation and I hope we've reached a mechanical uh conclusion. So let's call for the vote. All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye.

   Unidentified speakerVoice A

   2:53:08Aye.

   Charles GreyChair

   2:53:10Uh nay like sign? Nay. All right, I think the nays have it. I mean the eyes have it. Sorry, Freudian.

   2:53:22Here we go.

   2:53:27Yeah, what's next?

2. 2Apr 4, 2023
   Board of County CommissionersP60Public hearingContinued

   Zoning Amendment (Regular) – … Pasco County – North end of Caroline Drive, West … Containing Approximately 40.20 Acres

   Approved minutes

   Approved to continue the item to the May 9, 2023 Board of County Commissioner’s meeting at 1:30 p.m. in Dade City.

   Open this item →▶ Play from 12:25
   ▶ 12:256m

   Jack MarianoChair

   12:25Aye. Motion passes five O. We're now going to move to our consent agenda.

   12:32Public hearing. Uh the public hearing, yes. Um starting with continuances.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   12:38Yeah. Didn't you have to use the

   Jack MarianoChair

   12:41We'll do proof as we go.

   Unidentified speakerVoice L

   12:44I can do proof.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   12:45It's public hearing, but aren't don't you have to is this where yes bring everybody in or not?

   Madam Clerk

   12:52You

   Jack MarianoChair

   12:52just want to put in, Dave?

   Unidentified speakerVoice M

   12:53Uh clerk

   Madam Clerk

   12:55everybody. Everyone who's here to speak, please uh stand and raise your right hand for me, please.

   Jack MarianoChair

   13:00So anybody's going to speak on any public hearing item today? Please stand and raise your right hand.

   Madam Clerk

   13:06Do you swear or affirm the testimony you're about to give is the truth, so help you God? Thank you. When you come to the podium to speak for the record, please indicate whether you have been sworn, state your name and address, and spell your last name. Thank you.

   Unidentified speakerVoice M

   13:20Commissioner Yeager, could everybody do we want to achieve? Please do. Two rezoning agendas, regular consent, staff to present each application of the board county commissioners. If the staff or planning commission have recommended approval, there's no opposition, the application will be considered by the board without further presentation. The staff or planning commission has recommended denial, or there's opposition to the application.

   13:41Or there's opposition to the application, the applicant will be given five minutes for presentation. The opposition will be given three minutes for each individual or five minutes for a group representative, and the applicant will be given three minutes for a rebuttal. Any individual disagreeing with staff or planning commission recommendation or anyone wishing to object to any condition of the rezoning may at this time request that a petition be pulled from the consent agenda, in which case that application will be heard under the regular agenda later on during the meeting. Otherwise, all rezoning applications on the consent agenda will be approved by a single motion. Yeah. If you wish to speak to any petition, please give your name

   14:11and address on whether or not you've been sworn for the record. These are quadjudicial public hearing. The law in Florida is that mere public support or opposition of an application is insufficient for this board to take action. Please limit your comments to those criteria found within the board's land development code. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

   Jack MarianoChair

   14:26Thank you. And Denise?

   Denise

   14:28Do you want to do proof of publication? For which item, please? For um P

   Jack MarianoChair

   14:33forty seven.

   Denise

   14:34P forty seven. Can we do P six did you want to do P six

   Jack MarianoChair

   14:36first? Oh let's do P P sixty first. Thank you, Chairman

   Madam Clerk

   14:38Mariano.

   14:39Yes.

   14:39Uh P sixty, Tampa Bay Times, February fifteenth, twenty twenty three.

   Denise

   14:44Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, Board Board County Commissioner's members. This is Denise Hernandez with Planning and Development. Item P60 is PDD 237689. It's in the zoning amendment in the name of Martha Joanne Wood Hinman for a change in zoning from R1 rural density residential district to R2, low density and low R2 Low Density Residential District to an MF1 multiple family medium density district.

   15:17So if you would please um see if you have any public comment.

   Jack MarianoChair

   15:20So anybody here that wanted to speak to item P sixty, it is being continued. Um If you speak now, you won't be able to speak at the next public hearing by our rules. If you do want to speak, uh we'll take your public comment now. Does anyone here from want to speak on P sixty as as right now?

   Unidentified speakerVoice M

   15:44P sixty is a Caroline Drive. The applicant is Martha Joanne Wood Hinman.

   Kathryn Starkey

   15:52Move to uh

   Denise

   15:53continue.

   Unidentified speakerVoice M

   15:53Second.

   Jack MarianoChair

   15:54Okay, move to continue. What was the date? Maybe

   Denise

   15:57May 9th, 2023, 130 in Dade City.

   Jack MarianoChair

   16:00Okay. And all in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay. Thank you.

   Denise

   16:06We're gonna move on to P47.

   Jack MarianoChair

   16:09P

   Denise

   16:10forty seven, Tampa Bay Times, November second, twenty twenty two. P forty seven is on A development agreement, Wildcat Groves, Inc., Jan and Elizabeth LaRue and Cynthia D. Bayles development agreement to design, permit, construct, and dedicate and convey a certain portion of a realignment of Hendry Road in exchange for mobility fee credits. This is a request to continue the item to a date uncertain.

   Jack MarianoChair

   16:33Okay. Have a motion.

   Denise

   16:35Uh publicly?

   Jack MarianoChair

   16:36It's advertising continuous.

   Denise

   16:38Move

   Kathryn Starkey

   16:39to continue.

   Jack MarianoChair

   16:39Move to continuous. Okay. All in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Okay. Motion passes. P forty-eight.

   Madam Clerk

   16:47P forty eight, Temper Bay Times, November second, twenty twenty two.

   Denise

   16:52PDD 237607, it's a zoning amendment, Bayley's Wildcat, C C C M P U D Connected City, Master Plan Unit Development. This is a request to continue the item to a date uncertain.

   Jack MarianoChair

   17:03Move continues.

   Denise

   17:04Second.

   Jack MarianoChair

   17:05All in favor, uh move to continue. All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion passes. P49.

   Madam Clerk

   17:13Approved publication, Tampa Bay Times,

   Denise

   17:15March first, twenty twenty three. PDD twenty three seven six two seven zoning amendment to Pew East MPUD Master Plan Unit Development De Pew Ranch L L C and others. It's a request to continue the item to the May th May 9th, 2023, Board of County Commissioners meeting at one thirty in Dade City.

   Jack MarianoChair

   17:30Move continues.

   Denise

   17:31Second.

   Jack MarianoChair

   17:33All in favor say aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion passes. P fifty?

   Madam Clerk

   17:41The proof of publication on P50 is Tampa Bay Times, February 15th, 2023. P

   Denise

   17:46fifty is PDD twenty three seven six eight four zoning amendment, Sarah Gurley Trust, Max L and Sarah C. Gurley, co-trustees. It's a request, um, it's different from your agenda memo, it's actually a request to a date uncertain.

   Jack MarianoChair

   17:58Okay. So a motion?

   Seth Weightman

   18:00Move to continue date uncertain.

3. 3May 9, 2023
   Board of County CommissionersP70Public hearingApproved

   Approved minutes

   Approved Staff’s recommendation with the applicant revising the deed restriction to 150 and the landscaping package shown.

   Open this item →▶ Play from 1:48:14
   ▶ 1:48:141h 15m

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:48:14Item P 70.

   Kathryn Starkey

   1:48:16We have approved publication of this item in the April 19th, 2023 edition of the Tampa Bay Times, and we do have uh folks signed up.

   Unidentified speaker

   1:48:26Okay.

   1:48:29Thanks, Mr. Schuster.

   Liam Devine

   1:48:34Believe in divine planning and development. Item P seventy. Before I begin, I have received ex partees from Commissioner Weightman, Commissioner Bradford, Commissioner Starkey, Commissioner Oakleyano, and Commissioner Oakley, which have been submitted to the clerk's office. Item PDD 23-7689 in the name of Martha Joanne Wood Hinman. It's a zoning amendment from R1, Rural Density Residential District, and R2, Low Density Residential District, to MF1, Multifamily Medium Density District. The subject site the

   1:49:04subject site is on the north side of Caroline Drive, west of Bridley Ford, which I always mess up of Drive. Um And here is the aerial view, Pradley.

   1:49:20Just in context, this is the surrounding area, a little zoomed out of the aerial. The surrounding future land use to the north is Res 3 and to the east, south and west is all res six.

   1:49:34The surrounding zoning to the north, east, and west is all AR, and to the south is R1.

   1:49:41The subject site consists of a barn and tree farm on approximately 40.2 acres. The applicant proposes to develop the property with 162 townhomes in conformance with the MF1 Multifamily Medium Density District Standards for Development. The applicant has volunteered to record a deed restriction for the property. Some of those restrictions are to limit to limit the density to 162 dwarfings. selling units on the property. Shall have a maximum of six dwelling units per townhome building.

   1:50:13Um repave Caroline Drive from State Road 54 to the property boundary. Install a five-foot sidewalk on the west side of Caroline Drive. There shall be a minimum 40 feet building setback for the external property lines. except for um conflicts with primary and emergency access. There shall be a type B landscape buffer with a minimum width of 30 feet. There shall be a minimum of 20 feet between buildings with dwelling units. There shall be a six-foot-high solid

   1:50:43fence installed around the perimeter of the property.

   1:50:48Driveways shall have a minimum of 23 feet in length. There shall be a minimum of 70 spaces for visiting parking, in addition to the parking requirements by the Pasco County Land Development Code. Access to Tupper Road will be emergency access only until such time Tupper Road is constructed to county standards and Vision Road H is completed to Tupper Road. And then Shall extend the eastbound left turn lane at the intersection of Caroline and State Road 54 if

   1:51:18necessary based on an access management analysis. So that would be the last restriction. Access to the property is from Caroline Drive, a county-maintained local road with approximately 60 feet of right-of-way.

   1:51:32Oh sorry. Um subject site has a future land use classification of res six under the comprehensive plan. And this is coming with recommendations for approval from Planning Commission and Planning Development Department.

   Kathryn Starkey

   1:51:46Um. Was there um Any connection to the north, a stub out? I know there's nothing on now, but um did we not discuss having some kind of future connectivity going north?

   Liam Devine

   1:52:03So this is a Euclidean one, we really don't restrict that, but it is part of our LAN development code to provide interconnects.

   Kathryn Starkey

   1:52:10And so do they have a sub out to the north?

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:52:13So Euclidean zoning. There is no site plan.

   Kathryn Starkey

   1:52:17Okay, well I'll ask the applicant when she comes up.

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:52:21Okay. Any other questions for staff at this time? The applicant?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:52:32Good afternoon again. Barbara Well High [address removed]. Okay.

   1:52:39So we'll try not to uh duplicate your staff's presentation.

   1:52:45As we have as been presented to you, the total acreage is 40.2 acres, 29.8 acres uplands, remainder wetlands, MF1 zoning for 162 townhomes, gross 4.1 units per acre, net 5.4 units per acre, 5.4 units per developable acre for a townhome project is on the low side for townhome density. When I show you this the concept plan, you'll be able to see how that works out. The

   1:53:15comp plan is res 6, which allows up to 194.49, which is 194 units, we're requesting 162, which is 20% lower than your comp plan density. Trip comparison to the current zoning, the existing zoning allows 152 units, and the decrease between the fact that going from single family to townhomes decreases your traffic in the AM by 39% and the PM by 28%. Over what's the property is owned today. Context,

   1:53:47you've just seen this. This is the urban service area. So not only do you have Res 6, it has been Res 6 for many, many years. But you also in 2008 made this your urban concentration area and you also have done quite other work in this area to look at what your road network needs to be as growth occurrence.

   1:54:07This is our site in comparison to the different things that are going on around it. As you can see you've got Wells Road extension, Brispy Downs extension coming up. And our site will have, there's a condition that says that our access to Tupper will be emergency. until you have the road network over here so we can get our project over to your Bruce B. Down extension at that point our project will have to have full access to Tupper Road once it's improved.

   1:54:37This is our concept plan. Correct, we're doing Euclidean zoning, um, but we do have connectivity to the north and to to Tupper Road on your southern side as well as our entrance which is on Caroline Drive.

   1:54:56This is Caroline Drive entrance. This is Yeah

   Kathryn Starkey

   1:54:59right there. Can I mean uh is are you saying that that could step out to the north eventually?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:55:05That is what your code requires, and we're not asking for any variation from that code. Your code requires that connection. Right here. Okay,

   Kathryn Starkey

   1:55:13so that That will continue on. Okay, and and th and you know, people that live there need to know that that's a future road connection. Correct. Not a cul-de-sac, a tea cul-de-sac, right? Good point. Okay.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:55:27Some of the other things that you'll see with this with this site plan, you'll see the things that um Liam uh said to you regarding buffers and building setbacks, for example, along this property line, along all of our property lines, our building setback is forty feet. Compared to the existing zoning, which today allows 25 feet, allows residences within 25 feet of your property lines. Um This is forty feet. Um but

   1:55:58for right now you can have um pools within five feet of the promptly lines and all of our buildings will be back forty feet.

   Kathryn Starkey

   1:56:04So um the driveways on the right of the townhome seem to be longer than the driveways on the left side. What's going on there?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:56:13I think it's just the picture. I can tell you that the deed restrictions call for a minimum driveway length of twenty three feet.

   1:56:22And so I think that's just a picture. The other thing that you'll notice from this is is the buffering. We have enhanced buffering and where we've chosen to put our ponds and our and our amenities. Our enhanced buffering is 30 feet type B on the south and east side of the project. Right now the current zoning requires no buffer to the south. We can have homes to homes, no buffers. And the east requires A type A under the current zoning, 10 feet. We're providing

   1:56:52three times that at 30 feet. We're going from an A buffer, which is required the current zoning on this east side, to a type B buffer under your code. The code requires would be a 15-foot under for multifamily, and we're proposing 30 feet. What we really tried to do here, Commissioner, is when I said I noticed. that density um of five point four units per acre being very low on townhomes. We provided by keeping the density down, provided the ability to

   1:57:22have larger building setbacks, more landscaping, as well as dedicated parking. We had the conversation about parking. Um This site plan is far enough along that we have committed to 70 visitor spaces. Those are dedicated visitor spaces outside of the driveways. So in addition to the minimum code requirements, there's 70. And they've been put in places so they'll be very usable by the residents and their guests. We have a fence

   1:57:52surrounding the project. As you've heard, um Caroline Drive is substandard. We were asked by staff. To just make a substantive road payment. And that's what the re code requires. It's substandard because of pavement quality, not because of width. This is a b this road is to standard other than the pavement has worn down over time. It's the pavement quality that makes it substandard. But instead of just paying um into it, my clients offered and has agreed to in a deed restriction to pave

   1:58:23to county standards. Caroline Drive from State Road 54 to the to the entrance. Caroline Drive is a public road, it's stubbed out to this property. So this is the continuation of of Caroline Drive into this project. The other thing that we were asked by um Planning Commission to do is to provide a sidewalk on the west side of Caroline Drive. There's no requirement for that. Your substandard road ordinance doesn't require sidewalks at all. They don't

   1:58:53consider it. So we're going above and beyond. and and going to provide a sidewalk on that uh west side of Caroline Drive, which exceeds the code as well.

   1:59:04I've just ran through all those standards as well as Liam said all the things that we're agreeing to. So this is the rendering of this project. We do have a a builder developer and this is

   Kathryn Starkey

   1:59:16their product. Okay, that was gonna be my question. And that's very nice looking. And it's those are trees, not understory bushes. And those are street trees.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:59:25We this was created for this project. We didn't just go pick this somewhere. So that's our project. Thank you. If you have any questions, I have my team here.

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:59:33Any questions for the applicant?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:59:35Uh everything.

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:59:36Mr. Weightman,

   Unidentified speaker

   1:59:37just be clear. Be consistent. These are platted, fee simple, not rentals.

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:59:44That's that's correct.

   Unidentified speaker

   1:59:46Thank you.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   1:59:47Yeah. Is this what they're gonna look like, Barbara?

   Barbara Wilhite

   1:59:52This was created by David Weekly Holmes for this particular project.

   Jack MarianoChair

   1:59:56Okay. Okay. Mr. Chairman, just as I said in the last project, this is Euclidean. You do apparently have deed restrictions that you've already offered up on this project, right?

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:00:06That's correct. Seven twelve of them. Correct. But

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:00:11that's correct. What a difference between this and the other one that we saw. Yeah. And I'm gonna tell you that the street trees make a huge difference.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:00:21Uh I'm gonna ask the applicant a question. Barbara, sorry.

   2:00:25If you would put the picture up on the connectivity part.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:00:35No, I'm failing at the uh PowerPoint exercise.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:00:44On the top right part there's a road that tees into abutting your property there, but you don't connect to that. Why is that?

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:00:52You're speaking to our east? Yeah. Commissioner Yeah. Yeah, to the east. That's a that's a gated saddle ridge community, gated private roads. We have no legal ability to uh connect.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:01:04That's

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:01:04what happens when you gate 'em set.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:01:07What about on the top part? Is it still gated all the way up there? As it goes out to the other way?

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:01:12That road you see here, saddle ridge starts at a gate right here. It goes this way and then this way. They have a it's private, it's private all the way to the right.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:01:23All the way past that property. Yes. Okay.

   Seth Weightman

   2:01:27Yeah, Chair, that was a series of corporate road easement.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:01:31Okay. Very good. Thank you. Thank you. All right. This is the time for public comment. Anyone here from the public want to speak to this item? We

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:01:41have uh folks signed up. Uh Teresa Bayles.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:01:47Yeah.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:01:48Party for a second. Have you

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:01:51wrapped that up?

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:01:59Cham your name and address and if you would confirm that you were sworn.

   Unidentified speakerVoice I

   2:02:03Yes, my name is Teresa Bayles. I live at [address removed], and I was sworn in.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:02:10Thank you.

   Unidentified speakerVoice I

   2:02:13Um, I would like to speak to this project. I brought some pictures because pictures are worth a thousand words. I've lived in this neighborhood for 20 years. Um it's beautiful out there. Caroline Drive has half anchor lots, we live on acre lots. Um I was kind of taken back by the Tupper Road project, didn't know that was coming down the road, but I run down Tupper Road out to the interstate and back, so I'm familiar with that part personally. Um I would like to say that I'm opposed to this project. mainly because of the traffic. Um

   2:02:45This is a picture of the intersection of Saddlebrook and Highway 54 at the corner of Tupper Road. That stop sign that says right turn only is coming off Tupper Road. You have to go right to go towards I-75 on Highway 54. The next picture please.

   Unidentified speaker

   2:03:02Mm-hmm.

   Unidentified speakerVoice I

   2:03:04This is taken at the East side of Tupper Road looking at the intersection of Saddlebrook going towards I-75, going west on Highway 54. Next please. Am I supposed to be pushing something? I feel like I'm like okay. Um this is just another picture of that area. So my I understand when you have a problem you're supposed to come with a solution. My solution instead of driving all those 300 cars down

   2:03:34Caroline Road, which is a substandard road, which they said they're going to fix. is not the answer. I think it is to go down Tupper Road, especially since Tupper Road is supposed to connect to other roads in the future and you're building eight more homes down Tupper Road. Um the next picture please.

   2:03:53This is the community Brookside, which was a Southern Living Home community, beautiful community. When they come out of there, they have to go Right? to an ingress lane, make a U-turn to go west on Highway 54. Um they have no direct access in and out of their neighborhood on fifty four unless you're going to Zephyrhills. Okay, the next one please. This is the ingress lane coming to west, no east on 54 towards Caroline Drive. This is

   2:04:23what we have when um this when 54 was widened, this was the uh agreement that they came up with so we can turn into our neighborhood. We were not afforded a light. At that intersection, so we have this ingress lane that goes into Caroline Drive. The next picture please. This is taken looking at the lane. This is it. Ten o'clock in the morning. We have to play frogger to try to get across the road to get down Caroline Drive. You're gonna have another sixty a hundred and sixty two homes built on the end of Caroline Drive to try

   2:04:54to get traffic to go that way. You next picture please. This is cars coming out of Caroline Drive going west. These are cars pulling into Caroline Drive, traffic on 54. Next. When we come out on Caroline Drive, the only way we can go is right. Now we have knuckleheads that go straight across the road and go left, but that's illegal. So in order to go left and go towards Zephyrhills, we have to go down to the light of Saddlebrook, make a U-turn, and go back to go east on Highway

   2:05:2454. This is a guy doing a U-turn right there. So you've got traffic coming out of Caroline, you've got U-tures going on, you've got traffic coming from the left. Yeah. Okay, next is the speed limit on Caroline. This is a picture of Caroline. Um going north. The speed limit is 30 miles an hour. Next. Some county commissioner asked the last time what this the planning guy asked what speed limit was. This is the dead end. This is the entrance to the property that's going to be rezoned. And to the right is the entrance into

   2:05:54our neighborhood, Saddle Ridge Estates. Next, please. This is the picture you were asking about what that road was that was next to it. This is the gated community going in there. Okay next. This is the Woods property. This is on taking on Tupper Road. This is the emergency entrance that they're going to use to put out onto Tupper Road. Um this is the guy's property that has all that acreage. This is the woods property to the right. Next, please. This is taken from Tupper Road

   2:06:24looking down towards going to 54. That is that this is the dead end road where those other eight houses are going. Next, please. I'm talking as fast as I can. This is the emergency entrance. My suggestion would be to make the entrance to the community. Go in this emergency access and use Tupper Road. Next, please. You can go past that one. This is next. And this is the paved part, which is at Downey and Tupper. There's a section that's paved, and the rest is dirt to pave to

   2:06:5554. That's all I have.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:06:58Thank you.

   Unidentified speakerVoice I

   2:06:59Thank you very much for your guys' time. I appreciate you reading my emails too that I sent. Thank you.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:07:06And next person?

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:07:07We have signed up um sorry Nora Robert.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:07:17And is there anyone else in the audience?

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:07:23Ms. Robuck if you would again confirm your address and whether you were sworn.

   Unidentified speakerVoice N

   2:07:27Sure, Nora Robuck and address is [address removed] and I was sworn in.

   2:07:36So I have many concerns as well as most of the residents here. My main concern is the traffic. And right now there is no traffic light. Um obviously the traffic is increasing on Highway 54. We are now going to be crossing three lanes of traffic. Limit on 54 is uh 45 miles per hour, but no one's doing that. We're literally

   2:08:07trying to dodge cars as it is. I can't even imagine adding all of this um traffic that this townhome community is going to bring. Um also I know that there was a traffic analysis done as well, but I don't believe the traffic analysis. includes the more than thousand homes that are going in just three and a half miles going east, three and a half miles going west, all the homes that are being built. So we're not even taking into

   2:08:37consideration of that and as it is right now we are challenged to cross from 54 to get onto Caroline. Same thing in the morning. You're literally Really at zero speed pulling out into traffic where cars are going 45-50 miles an hour. So, I mean, I am truly concerned for the residents, my family. I have a young driver in the house. I I just I'm really sad that we've even gotten this far with this

   2:09:07project.

   2:09:10Also, I will say um this is one thing too. I believe in the Planning Commission there was this. Yes, thank you. So I'm also I've been a realtor for 18 years, and I really can't think of a townhome community where you have to go through an older residential area where the lots are larger. Everyone lives on a larger lot inside. Battle Brook, we're on an acre plus.

   2:09:39So the examples that they gave here, I actually I agree with it. This is perfect. This is where you should see a townhome community. These are planned unit developments. There are multiple points of entry, and all of these communities have a traffic light for the safety of those residents where we do not.

   2:10:02Um so also I again I would say as a realtor for the last eighteen years in this area, I know that there's a housing demand. We have hundreds and hundreds of town homes that are gonna be completed by the end of the year. That's not even including what's going on on Curly Road. Right now the demand is luxury homes or upscale homes, which gentleman just present presented before us. That is the need, that's the demand. I

   2:10:33guess I would just ask you to please consider our safety, our lives, um, and just know that we know something will be built there. We're just asking you to continue to complement what we already have on Caroline.

   2:10:49Thank you.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:10:52Anyone else from the audience wish to address this item this item? Anyone want on WebEx?

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:11:00No sir.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:11:01Okay. We're going to close public comment. To the board. Commissioner Weightman. Thanks, sir.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:11:07Mr. Chairman, do you want to give the applicant rebuttal?

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:11:10Um let's hear from the applicant first.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:11:20Barbara Wilhite for the applicant. Sound like most of the discussions regarding traffic, we do have a our traffic engineer, Steve Henry, here that can go through and discuss any traffic issues you want to discuss. I would state that we have been thoughtful the access our access management analysis will have to look at that intersection of 54 and Caroline Drive, which is off-site. And we did a deed restriction that says that if that access management analysis must One, the access management analysis will include that intersection even though it's off-site.

   2:11:50Usually you do access management at your entrance. And if a longer turn lane is warranted, we'd commit to that as well. So I just wanted to point that out because I didn't make that a part of my presentation before. Steve Henry is available if you want to hear uh more from him regarding traffic or we can answer questions.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:12:10Commissioner Weightman.

   Seth Weightman

   2:12:11Thank you. So This property already has entitlements on it. It could be The number of town homes that's listed here are what, 155 single family units? What's that what's the number?

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:12:27One sixty-two town homes and one hundred and fifty-two single family homes are zoned for now.

   Seth Weightman

   2:12:32Right. So that's it's got existing entitlements. Uh one's gonna have less traffic than the other, but it goes to to the point of what what would we have approved on this site. based on the the neighboring how the current homes are being built if this property didn't already have its entitlements. Just just food for thought. When you travel this area, and this has been my concern for months now, and we've talked, and you know, we've talked the DOT about this. This area is so

   2:13:02congested with folks coming in and out of Saddleburgh, in and out of it's dangerous, frankly. It's it's really dangerous in and out of Brookside and then you come and you try to turn north and you're crossing three lanes in the Caroline Drive you have Tupper which is a substandard road you're gonna you know Flipboards approved today and the the the future. This area is is is ripe for being fixed. What that what the fix is, I'm not sure. It's fifty it's it's fifty or

   2:13:32but that's not that's a vision. That's way way on out there. We're adding potentially hundreds of units and then more coming on, more more folks traveling up and down Tupper and they're gonna have to just make a right hand turn only and folks coming off Caroline and coming coming through and having to turn right out on to to fifty four. It it's the the traffic in this area and then what's potentially going to change is potential of Saddlebrook. This entire area something

   2:14:03needs to happen. We need to have I think an emergency action plan of what we're gonna do to alleviate the traffic safety, something in that area. When all these units come online traveling. I I wish you would you have Walmart right there, folks flying up and down east to west. It's it's a it's a it's a troubled traffic float area and that's my biggest concern with all the projects that are that are going in right here. It's

   2:14:34you all travel in Sabbath. So I I I'd like to hear Board's thoughts on what we can do to keep folks safe live who live in this area.

   Mike Carballa

   2:14:43If I may, there there's a process by which we go through the Yes sir. Let me let me have control of the first.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   2:14:52Just to the uh west of Saddlebrook you've got that new vis that road coming up with a new light and that vision there's a vision road I believe there that travels to the north. Does it connect somehow to this project? Does anyone know?

   Seth Weightman

   2:15:06Yeah.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   2:15:07No, but it's come. Roads always come after, you gotta remember.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:15:12If you wanted to reload me.

   2:15:16I can show you where our project is compared to them.

   2:15:27I can't remember which way I'm supposed to go there.

   2:15:31So this is our project, and then you see which is Bruce B. Downs extension coming from Bruce Down, Bruce B. Downs coming across Wiregrass, Saddlebrook if approved, we'll do the piece of of um of wire uh excuse me of Bruce Bowns extension from Wiregrass Boulevard 54 spoke to Scott Sheridan today and that is in the works. Um I have no doubt that if Saddlebrook is approved that piece will be done. The conditions for Saddlebrook say you can't have the first CO in development area one until that road is constructed.

   2:16:02So that road's coming. So it's a matter of the rest of the road. You can see there's quite a bit of property around this property. That's all owned by the same owner. A project will come in here and we'll provide the solution to bring this road up to here and then to here. It means something when you all plan your vision roads. I actually think I remember we didn't have vision records when I was in the county. These roads are are you look at build-out, you

   2:16:32look at well it's gonna grow, and you come up with these these other roadways to move traffic around. Um our project is here, this is tougher road, tougher road eventually will be also you see that there's property on this side. So Tupper Roads could be improved. It didn't require it to be improved. At this point, you've got the proportion of your payment because that's what's required of the code. But Tupper Road will be improved. This project will have full access to Tupper Road. When it's improved, I think the rest of this roadway is going to

   2:17:02fill, this notebook is going to fill in as this vacant property here is developed. From fifty-four all the way up and around. We'll be a piece of that and we're gonna do Go over the code to improve Caroline Drive. It's only a quality issue with the pavement. It is a standard road, except for the pavement quality is older. We're going to extend the turn lane at Caroline. We'll look at that at access management analysis. If the access management analysis says you need to extend it 100 feet, 200 more feet, we will do

   2:17:32that. So Just want to give you the bigger picture of of what's going on. I don't I understand what you're saying, Commissioner, and I think you're looking for a a broader discussion, but from a project perspective, you know, meeting and exceeding and fitting fitting into all these plans, um that's kind of where we're coming from. Oh can I Oh

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:17:51okay. Um I have some questions. Let me go let me go to the resident commissioner again. So I'll come back to you.

   Seth Weightman

   2:17:56Thank you. And I appreciate these vision roads there. Their vision Fifteen years from now or however long. But my concern is the immediate. There are their approved densities on the Caroline Drive site.

   2:18:12When we had that many folks, the townhome study shows it's going to be less traffic than single family, but nonetheless, it's still a lot of traffic. A lot more traffic ending in to 54. With limited movement. You have to go west and figure out how to come back east or how you guys would they would potentially south of there on the Saddlebrook site more folks. My concern is

   2:18:45We we really need to work uh you mentioned your turn lane, that that could la alleviate some some safety, but I like our staff to get with DOT and really talk about light time and we Andy and I met with DOT two weeks ago and they talked they mentioned that they had it's been a a while since they looked at the light time being the light cycle through here. And this has been, if you look back, this has been my my n number one concern from this I really Bruce P. Downs moving

   2:19:15east on fifty four is the traffic and the number of lights and people having to cross three lanes to make a U turn to go one way or another. And so that's that's that's a that's a real life daily concern that the folks living in this area face every day. And then we're gonna you know, more folks move in and then there it's just compounding the issue. So um I guess it's more of a car point made to Mr. Karbala and his his

   2:19:46team on you know it's it's important maybe if there's a way to talk about once we get the the Tupper an improved Tupper Road soon sooner than later and then it has a different access point potentially for the flow of traffic. So

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:20:00hold on.

   Seth Weightman

   2:20:00I'm just throwing that out there for folks to be thinking about the future of the roadway system immediately in this area.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:20:07Mr. Starkey.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:20:08Um an in and looking at this map

   2:20:13There's so many neighborhoods here and if you look at them you will see like look where it says stop step down look at the neighborhoods where it says down They don't connect to each other. Everybody has to go out on in and out on the same road. That is a recipe for disaster. This is what we have done by not requiring connectivity between the neighborhoods. I and s and It it it's very hard to fix this once you've allowed that

   2:20:43to happen because

   2:20:47Because you'd have to take out houses, buy a house in this neighborhood and a house in that neighborhood. and put a road through to connect 'em, but we shouldn't be Putting in these neighborhoods That don't connect to each other. Um

   2:21:03I I am uh I sure don't want to see when that other piece of property that wraps around this one comes in You know, it doesn't need to be townhomes. It can be nicer homes. We need those in the county. Can't have everything being townhomes. Uh but I just I just frustrated that we've allowed so many neighborhoods that don't connect to other roads. And you all have to get out you have to get in and out of fifty four, in and out of fifty two. We're doing it again on State

   2:21:33Road fifty two, I'm telling you. And and we're get we're gonna get ourselves in trouble.

   Seth Weightman

   2:21:38Like I I I look at the stub outs, I'm like, Well Where is it gonna I mean maybe it'll eventually hit Division Road, but your option is to the east to get to Boyette or you know, Cooper Road which is an unpaid basement basically. Um it's just it's it's tough. So when we go to plan the future of this this all this this land that's left here and really we're still the same board.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:22:01Well we would make the development of looking

   Seth Weightman

   2:22:05look bigger, so I uh I appreciate your time.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   2:22:08Commissioner Oakley. All right. When you look at the safe way out of this Tupper Road and going on the fifth floor is not to go straight across and take a left. We know that. We have our own engineers in-house that can look at timing of lights and tweak those to make them right. So the way out of Tupper Road is basically the safest way is right turn on. We have some other areas in in the county already. On to

   2:22:38Island Boulevard there's one especially uh Silver Oaks, they should have a right turn only 'cause there's been some deadly accidents coming out of that area. So But we have traffic folks that can do that tweaking of lights and they can look at this project and I'm sure Mike uh can express to them.

   Seth Weightman

   2:22:58There's no light turn.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   2:23:00Hmm?

   Seth Weightman

   2:23:00There's no light that that's

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   2:23:02No no. A right turn only, no light.

   2:23:07I still a safe turn out of that without going to your left. You have to go down and move over and be safe and make a U turn to come back the other way.

   Seth Weightman

   2:23:15There's no right hand turn into Caroline or Tupper Road. You put your blanker on and over.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   2:23:21No, I I understand it. I'm talking about coming out. I'm not talking about going in.

   2:23:27There's there's

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:23:28no

   Seth Weightman

   2:23:28lighter. There's no it's only a saddle room.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:23:31Yeah. There's no lighter topper.

   Seth Weightman

   2:23:33And the next one is the is the boat where the old uh Post offices were Boyette the bypassing Boyette rope popped up and there's a light there. Um

   2:23:46they and dying that band dying for we're dead where the new road the Boyette comes straight and it's van dyne and it's by the racetrack there.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:23:55Yeah. Okay. Um you're done? Okay. So you know I'm I'm glad the residents came forward 'cause You know, we we heard very similar things from people that live in Brookside at the Saddlebrook thing about going out and around. We heard that people coming from outside of Saddlebrook with the apartments to be looping around where they gotta go this way and they're all gonna go seventy five percent going back to seventy five. So with all that stuff going on, never mind all the apartments coming down fifty-four. And keep in mind I told you when

   2:24:25I came back from five going to Saddamark one day from 581, 45 minutes, taking from 581 and 56 into Saddamark, 45 minutes from back out. When you throw more density in here and you've got a very unique situation where you've got a series of lights that they can't time. And then anyone who goes up and down nineteen you can see that it's tough to time lights, but you don't even have lights sequence where you can even get to it. You're gonna have a very difficult turn. And if you've got all this extra density coming in, trying to make that left in.

   2:24:56And you get a couple of crazy people trying to make a left out and I you can go look at data in front of the old Walm oh the new Walmart uh small store at Little and Ridge Road, the accidents there by people jumping out and jumping over when they shouldn't be going that way. Uh you're gonna see some big, big accidents. Um I I I appreciate the developer. I think he's great. I think he does a phenomenal job. Uh your presentation's good, but when you look at the traffic, when I first was elected one of the first things we did was actually

   2:25:26put a lot of money into this intersection. Ton of money. Yeah.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:25:29Trying

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:25:30to approve it. But then we keep on improving development, development, development, and guess what? We just had to go spend a whole bunch of money on Divergent Diamond. This road had been built many years ago, going up and through? Maybe. It would have helped. Right? But it's could be years down the road. We're talking about how we don't wanna like talked about it earlier today. You don't want to allocate special money to go to a certain area when you want to approve a development. You're gonna be sitting sitting in a situation where you're gonna create another problem that we don't

   2:26:00need to have. Going through here. This area is jam-packed. 54 is a is Just jam-packed, it's gonna get worse when the development just finishes up. Even if we do nothing else, we're gonna have traffic issues. Yeah. So I I I I I I can't support what's going on.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:26:27Um farm. Mr. Starkey. Yeah, I want to ask the the applicant's attorney again. Um can you say again what you know about the Bruce B. Downs extension? Because that will be a major reliever for this, but but I just want to make sure I've heard

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:26:44Yeah, so this portion here, Wiregrass has the obligation to construct This portion here, Wiregrass, has the obligation to give the right-of-way for. This project Saddlebrook is working with Wiregrass on the specific alignment that this is going to take if this project over here is approved. that this project's gonna take. So this P, this is going to be done. And Going north, this project here has an obligation to give

   2:27:14right away in their current MPD. Wait, wait, what's the project has to do it? This project right here, going north, so we we've covered from Bruce Bay Downs up to 54. This project here, there's an MPD approved that has to give right of way.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:27:30We already approved

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:27:31one? Yep, yes.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:27:32It's uh in the land that surrounds the site your site?

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:27:38Over here.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:27:39Yeah. 'Cause that looks like a wetland, so what project are you talking about?

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:27:43There there is a project here that has the obligation to give right away.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:27:47And what is what is the project?

   2:27:51Okay. What

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:27:51is it? Stony Brook M PUD. Staff knows better than me. I like TV. Stony Brook M PUD right

   2:27:57here.

   2:27:57Stoney Brook? Yeah, as a they're at the corner of what would be your fur future Vision Road and 54. They have an obligation to give right-of-way. So the the missing pieces are going through this property. up here, which is under ownership. So

   2:28:16Solutions to traffic are through your vision roads. Your vision roads are based upon growth. I'm and

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:28:21I'm sorry if I can uh interrupt you. So from fifty four to Tupper, is that what Stony Brook has to build? Or they just have to give the right of way. Stony

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:28:30Brook has to give the right of way.

   2:28:33adjacent to their property for your Vision Road.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:28:36And the impact fees that are coming from saddlebrut or mobility fees.

   2:28:45Or the I mean For a question. Well, uh is there is that enough to fix that road? No, because we've got Pasco Town Center to the north of this, right? This this feeds Pasco Town Center way up there in the right-of-way.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:28:57Eventu eventually your road here does go. It's

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:28:59an important road. It's a

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:29:00parallel road, right? It's a very important road.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:29:03I just wonder how long it'll take to get to Temple.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:29:07How long to get to top oh till this piece is done? Yeah. I think your solution is is I think you'll see the development pressure for this property. you can see it's it's the only vacant larger piece of property you have in the area. The the development pressure's gonna come and our investment Rose? Rose is not a bad thing. Density's not your enemy. Um So the development pressure is here for these this large tract around us, one ownership, I think that project

   2:29:37will come in and work with the county on a solution to get these road the rest of the roads done. Just like Wiregrass is doing this and Saddlebrook's going to do this piece. So development can do these roads. We are. Our project is proposing less density than what it's approved for today. So uh

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:29:56The project to the left of that line, I'm gonna try and blow it up here. It's not gonna connect to the Vision Road or Tu or Tupper, is it? It's a one or Tupper. The which project? The one the one that has the words Bruce B. Downs on it. It's already built.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:30:14That is a built project right there.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:30:15And it doesn't connect to anything.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:30:18I believe that's

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:30:19the

   2:30:19same.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:30:22No Your network that you have. We don't ha we didn't have vision roads back then. Right. Your your vision roads are It's coming up the side. are a pretty good system of roads to uh provide for traffic flow.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:30:34So going back to Tupper and Caroline, is there any reason why we can't this project can't use both those roads? And

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:30:42physically it's actually interesting. Physically our site can connect. You see these roads here. Whoops.

   2:30:55Not a very good close up, but Look at something. Tupper? And then Caroline. Yeah. And then the roads go and then the roads go east west. Those roads people along those roads, the south of us, can go Tupper or they can go to Caroline. There's it's physically connected, this is all physically connected, these homes to either Caroline or Tupper.

   2:31:25So they're they actually have access to two different ways.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:31:28Can I see your site plan again if you don't mind? Sure.

   2:31:39So that's Caroline. Uh and what's to the left there? This is Caroline coming up right there. Okay, Tupper Tupper would be

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:31:47And Tupper is right off of here. It's right here. Coming comes up right And

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:31:53are are you connected to that or you're not connected to that?

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:31:56We are providing emergency access until Tupper Road's approved. Then that converted to SD restrictions converted to full access. Your staff and the Planning Commission both pointed out that we We want to see it full access, we want to see you have access to Tupper Road when it's improved. We want to see you to have access to Division Road by via Tupper Road. And again when you look at what's going on. Because you have one property Around the

   2:32:26site. You've got vacant property in the north at the segment of Tupper Road. You've got vacant property to the south. You're now taking money to go towards Tupper Road by approving the project earlier today. So so these roads are all gonna come into play as this last piece here comes into play.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:32:48And And was Tupper Road off of fifty four paved or non paved? I don't going

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:32:55Steve is I'm gonna I'm getting beyond what I know about the road conditions out there. I understand it's It's Tupper Road is somewhat paved, somewhat not paved, it is substandard. Like I said on Caroline, the only thing that makes Caroline substandard is the pavement quality at this point. It's an older road, but the width of it is standard. Um Steve, do you know more about Tupper

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:33:17Okay, we're gonna

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:33:18fix. He's looking. We we don't We We don't access Tupper Roads. Mm-hmm.

   2:33:28And what were you gonna do to Caroline, right? We're gonna pave it. Um instead of just what your code requires and what your staff asked of us was a proportionate share payment under the code. We're gonna pave it to county standards. We're gonna this developer is going to pay Um to make that road standard, uh pavement quality 'cause everything else is standard already. And they're also going to add a sidewalk on the west hand side.

   2:33:53Which your substantive road ordinance doesn't contemplate.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:34:03Anything else for the applicant?

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:34:07That's it. I just but what could

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:34:09happen now

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:34:09without our approval?

   2:34:13Current zoning is 152 more trips than what town homes. Town homes produce less trips, so this is less trips. You've got a good developer here, you've got a lot of deed restrictions. I think we you you have a you have the ability for a very quality project and we'd ask for you to to support

   Seth Weightman

   2:34:32Commission Wait.

   2:34:37It's less trips, more trips. Still there's entitlements on the property that's gonna generate more folks and more traffic in the area. I appreciate the folks working on this project, you know, wanting to re go and do the work that needs to be done on Caroline Drive. That's not necessarily something they have to do and I'm very appreciative of that and then and then the and the quality of the product that they're looking at building there and the concessions that have been made. to

   2:35:08this piece of property um I'm you know, appre appreciative of Ms. Watt, your client's willingness to work and to and to build something nice and then build something that has real value to it and then do their best to improve you know the quality of life and and and the life of the folks living in this area is going to change. It's basically going to change overnight when these projects get approved and the volume of traffic come out. So it's a it's

   2:35:38a quick change to the area. which goes to my concern with both roads are essentially substandard, but we have Uh project that's going to improve one. We have another Oak Tupper that it still comes the same thing. It dead ends at 54 and people have to turn right. They all go to the same red light. No plans in the near future to pave Temple or no plans in the near future to get the vision road done. And

   2:36:08so, you know, look at the lesser two evils on what we vote on today on on this uh on this side. I I just ask that we work to find

   2:36:21some sort of uh traffic management plan in the short time to to manage to manage all these folks and keep them safe as they're going to and from their home.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:36:33Let me ask a question of staff if you don't mind. So the density they have currently is R1 rural Density residential. And R two low Density residential. Please explain to me how the statement where it's less dense if we go to the townhome project.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:36:53There are less trips. What the applicant said was there was less trips.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:36:57Okay, so that's what I was just

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:36:58saying.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:36:59So tell me tell me how many homes would be on there first.

   Denise

   2:37:01Absolutely. So basically um the property has a split zoning of R one, which is two point two dwelling units per acre. And an R2, which is 4.6 doling units per acre. When you add all that up based on the areas that are R1 and R2, I actually came up with 153, but let's say that the applicant is correct at 152. But in terms of the trips, the traffic engineer can answer that question. And I believe what he's going to explain is that

   2:37:31attached, you units produce less trips than do single family detached because I believe one of the things that happens in single f family detached is that they tend to be larger. units, uh more square footage. Um but I will allow that expert to state that.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:37:50All right, but s stay with me. So for the units minus the wetlands, how many do you figure they can get?

   Denise

   2:37:55One fifty three. is what I got in gross.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:38:00And remember one fifty three gross. And I have a question for her following what you're saying. Uh if they could do that today and not have to pave Caroline.

   Denise

   2:38:12That's correct. There was no condition of approval on the process.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:38:14So this is generating less trips and paving Caroline with and adding a sidewalk. So that's why I'm inclined to approve.

   2:38:29It's it's the better of both options, I'm sorry. Yeah, I I think this is the better thing. And this is a quality builder quality product.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:38:38I I str I so I I just struggle with the units. I I just I just ca I can't see how they could get the same amount of units with the same

   Denise

   2:38:48So um so why don't we do multiplication together?

   2:38:55Okay. So let's let's do the exercise. 27 acres approximately of R2 multiply 27 times 4.6.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:39:07Who's doing it? Oakley.

   Denise

   2:39:09Okay.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:39:10Is that a calculator

   Denise

   2:39:11in your hand or are you texting? So it that should give you, I think one twenty four. Your lawyer's got it. And then you take thirteen point two? At two point two. That should give you twenty nine. Add those two, you get 153.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:39:32This is when you're going to be able to do that. And what about the weapons?

   Denise

   2:39:36I that's why I said this was gross, not nut.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:39:39I'm talking about

   Denise

   2:39:40I th I would w literally probably sit for a while and figure it out. I don't think what we've been delineated, so we don't know the numb the the wetland Right,

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:39:53so that number could go down substantially.

   2:39:55Potentially, yes.

   2:39:56Alright, let's get get up on map pages. I want to see what the

   Denise

   2:39:59weather's up. Yeah, a and thank you for the applicant to tell me that. The code calculates it on the gross. So that's what we're doing. We're calculating the right-of-way.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:40:06I understand. I'm talking reality though. I want to know how many trips are really gonna happen.

   Denise

   2:40:11Is that

   Brentford Adumwa

   2:40:12a button

   Henry

   2:40:13or a give an answer.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:40:19I'm not looking for your trips. I'm looking for a count or how many buildings we can actually get there. I'm not looking for that. I want my answer first. Let's do math.

   2:40:37How many weapons do we got out there? Drop up map pages if you have to. This is a big issue.

   Denise

   2:40:44So Map Pages is not Map Pages is not a full wetland delineation, so that's not a delineated wetland.

   Unidentified speaker

   2:40:52Well to be

   Denise

   2:40:55We can do that.

   Unidentified speaker

   2:40:59More math?

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:41:14Why don't we take a 10-minute break while staff takes a look and does a calculation for us?

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   2:41:18Okay.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:41:22Take a ten minute break.

   Unidentified speaker

   2:41:33Yeah.

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:53:18And if it doesn't have to be a good thing,

   David Mclaughlin

   2:53:20so you're gonna never get Lee or John or anybody

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:53:23too.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:53:27Yeah, I was uh Deputy Chief Assistant is a lobby body chief assistant.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   2:53:47É quem corporar um like.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:54:03Okay, Denise, so with the new calculation of the wetlands, what do we got?

   Denise

   2:54:08So here's what we've got. So basically the applicant has provided in their PowerPoint that you have approximately 10 acres that are wetlands on the property. So what we looked at is that we I had stated previously that 27 of those acres are within R2. We allocated two of those acres to be wetlands. So we said 25 upland. So twenty five multiplied by four point six. We're gonna get to the R one in a second. Twenty

   2:54:38five multiplied by four point six is one fifteen.

   2:54:44Ten altogether.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:54:45Twenty five?

   Denise

   2:54:47So altogether the acreage is forty acres. It's forty point two is forty acres, okay? So 27 acres are R2. We're allocating two eight two of those acres as wetlands, so you get 25. Times 4.6 is 115. Then the 13 acres, most of the wetlands is in that area. So we're allocating eight acres to that. So that leaves us with 13 minus 8 is So

   2:55:19you multiply five by 2.2 and you get 11. And 115 plus 11 is 126. So that's what we're getting.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:55:33One twenty six. And what was the other no the other number we had?

   Denise

   2:55:35The other number we had was one fifty three. The applicant's saying one fifty two, but that's fine. I mean it's just off by one. Come on in it.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:55:44Bart. So just so factually factually, I'm trying to be helpful here. What Steve Henry was gonna tell you is that single family homes ninety six equals one sixty two town homes. So you are still even if you use the one twenty five number that Ms. Hernandez came up with, still a decrease in trips.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:56:08Okay.

   Barbara Wilhite

   2:56:08And you get a looking. And

   Kathryn Starkey

   2:56:11a sidewalk. And a sidewalk.

   2:56:16Well well, it's gonna be sidewalk with more traffic. Kids need a place to ride a bike safely.

   Ron OakleyVice Chair

   2:56:31Okay,

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:56:31where are we? Um you want to hear from the traffic consultant or you just want to take Barbara's methodology?

   Seth Weightman

   2:56:40Uh before I had some ex parte I had a rookie move here, some ex parte communications and uh On this subject with the residents in Caroline Drive, so I'd submit this for the record, the names of the folks that spoke with.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:56:55Okay. Do we a motion received and filed?

   Unidentified speaker

   2:56:58Wait, what was your motion?

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:57:00So yeah. I had just a reminder when there's a break. Don't talk to the Either the applicants or the residents or it's ex parte contact just especially after you close public comment. So I ask the commissioner to disclose that.

   2:57:19Okay.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:57:22Okay. Disclosed.

   2:57:25Uh any other questions for applicant or staff?

   2:57:35No questions?

   Unidentified speaker

   2:57:36Yeah.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:57:37Mm-hmm. All right, I'll just I'm just gonna ask Steve Henry to come up and just give me the give me the data on the trips.

   Henry

   2:57:46Sure, what I did was r run some quick numbers on the 126. So basically if you have 126 homes compared to the 162 townhomes, it would result in about eleven less trips in the AM peak hour and about twenty-nine less in the PM peak hour. So in both instances, the existing entitlements would generate more traffic than what we're proposing. Repeat that performance. It's uh eleven trips in the AM, less is what we're proposing over what

   2:58:16is currently allowed on the property, and twenty nine in the P M DM. So it's a net reduction in traffic.

   2:58:26And those are peak hour trips. Those are peak hour trips, correct. And obviously obviously we use the lesser decrease in the data also.

   Seth Weightman

   2:58:38You're confident that what you're proposing is indeed less trips than Carolina Drive.

   Henry

   2:58:46Correct, yes. Single family home program. Correct we we base our numbers are based on ITE, which is national data that has done studies on hundreds and hundreds of different single family and town home projects. And historically always all the numbers town home generate less traffic per unit than single family. And part of it is most townhomes have less kids is really what it boils down to. Single family tip tend to have more kids, more traffic in and out than townhomes do.

   2:59:16And so per unit, a townhome project has less traffic. And that's national data. That's also data out of you know what you guys use for mobility fees, but it is less traffic per unit.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:59:28But is it possible in this demographic area where the schools, et cetera, are being a great quality of life where it's hard for people to afford to live, this townhome project could get loaded up with more than proportionally done for the data you're using.

   Henry

   2:59:40On on average, again, it's not saying that there aren't any kids in townhomes. On average Town rooms generate less traffic. There are still kids in town. I'm saying on average there are less per unit than there would be on a typical single family.

   Jack MarianoChair

   2:59:58Um let me ask the applicant a question.

   3:00:07Would the applicant take less units than what he's asking for right

   Barbara Wilhite

   3:00:11now?

   3:00:13What you thought?

   Jack MarianoChair

   3:00:15One twenty six.

   Barbara Wilhite

   3:00:20Just one twenty six.

   Jack MarianoChair

   3:00:23Well is that one fifty three now? The same number as single.

   Barbara Wilhite

   3:00:30Okay. Thank

   3:00:30you.

   3:00:30I'm trying to figure out what the It's been a long day. It's only Tuesday. Sure. Um so you're asking if you would keep it the same number.

   Jack MarianoChair

   3:00:38Keep it the same number.

   Barbara Wilhite

   3:00:40But N there's numbers and trips. So we're trying to equiv equivalent we're trying to make something equivalent, it's not equivalent. I mean we're worried about trips and traffic and we've told you all about traffic but now we're just gonna arbitrarily cut a project. I mean it's you're just darting the project and And it's not gonna We already have less trips, so I He can answer for himself, I guess I can go ask them then. You know, it's it's been a long time since we just started cutting density to cut density.

   Seth Weightman

   3:01:12'Cause twenty seven years.

   Barbara Wilhite

   3:01:38Back to the days of Commissioner Hildebrand and Chinese auctions, my client can reduce down to one fifty and not kill the project.

   Seth Weightman

   3:01:50Oh one fifty from

   Barbara Wilhite

   3:01:52From one hundred sixty two.

   3:01:57Which is even more of a reduction in the troops. Which is what you're all looking for.

   Kathryn Starkey

   3:02:01Move move to approve with the restrictions.

   Jack MarianoChair

   3:02:05Second. So just Because it's Euclidean. So the the applicant will revise its deed restriction to one fifty. That's correct. And with that reviv revision to the deed restriction, the commissioner is moving for approval.

   Kathryn Starkey

   3:02:34With the landscaping package package you showed us. So we don't have to go through we went through on the last one. On the

   Barbara Wilhite

   3:02:40record that's correct.

   Kathryn Starkey

   3:02:41Okay.

   Barbara Wilhite

   3:02:41Yeah.

   Jack MarianoChair

   3:02:42Any further discussion?

   3:02:45I'll just say um it's unfortunate what's there, what's granted, and I think this is the best situation we can get. So all in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion passes.

   Unidentified speaker

   3:02:59Um

   Denise

   3:03:00I I think we need clarification of the motion because I know there was a comment about the Waiva site plan that that's not in it in the deed restriction. So I just wanna make sure that

   Kathryn Starkey

   3:03:13To be clear. Okay. So we're adding another date restriction. Yeah. And I put I think I put that in the record. That was a factual representation. Of the builder's product. Yeah, I don't know. Is that our last one?