Zoning Amendment (Regular) – Martha Joanne Wood Hinman – Change in Zoning from an R-1 Rural Density Residential District and R-2 Low Density Residential District to a MF-1 Multiple-Family Medium Density District – South Central Pasco County – North end of Caroline Drive, West of Bridleford Drive – Containing Approximately 40.20 Acres

1:48:14Item P 70.

1:48:16We have approved publication of this item in the April 19th, 2023 edition of the Tampa Bay Times, and we do have uh folks signed up.

1:48:26Okay.

1:48:29Thanks, Mr. Schuster.

1:48:34Believe in divine planning and development. Item P seventy. Before I begin, I have received ex partees from Commissioner Weightman, Commissioner Bradford, Commissioner Starkey, Commissioner Oakleyano, and Commissioner Oakley, which have been submitted to the clerk's office. Item PDD 23-7689 in the name of Martha Joanne Wood Hinman. It's a zoning amendment from R1, Rural Density Residential District, and R2, Low Density Residential District, to MF1, Multifamily Medium Density District. The subject site the

1:49:04subject site is on the north side of Caroline Drive, west of Bridley Ford, which I always mess up of Drive. Um And here is the aerial view, Pradley.

1:49:20Just in context, this is the surrounding area, a little zoomed out of the aerial. The surrounding future land use to the north is Res 3 and to the east, south and west is all res six.

1:49:34The surrounding zoning to the north, east, and west is all AR, and to the south is R1.

1:49:41The subject site consists of a barn and tree farm on approximately 40.2 acres. The applicant proposes to develop the property with 162 townhomes in conformance with the MF1 Multifamily Medium Density District Standards for Development. The applicant has volunteered to record a deed restriction for the property. Some of those restrictions are to limit to limit the density to 162 dwarfings. selling units on the property. Shall have a maximum of six dwelling units per townhome building.

1:50:13Um repave Caroline Drive from State Road 54 to the property boundary. Install a five-foot sidewalk on the west side of Caroline Drive. There shall be a minimum 40 feet building setback for the external property lines. except for um conflicts with primary and emergency access. There shall be a type B landscape buffer with a minimum width of 30 feet. There shall be a minimum of 20 feet between buildings with dwelling units. There shall be a six-foot-high solid

1:50:43fence installed around the perimeter of the property.

1:50:48Driveways shall have a minimum of 23 feet in length. There shall be a minimum of 70 spaces for visiting parking, in addition to the parking requirements by the Pasco County Land Development Code. Access to Tupper Road will be emergency access only until such time Tupper Road is constructed to county standards and Vision Road H is completed to Tupper Road. And then Shall extend the eastbound left turn lane at the intersection of Caroline and State Road 54 if

1:51:18necessary based on an access management analysis. So that would be the last restriction. Access to the property is from Caroline Drive, a county-maintained local road with approximately 60 feet of right-of-way.

1:51:32Oh sorry. Um subject site has a future land use classification of res six under the comprehensive plan. And this is coming with recommendations for approval from Planning Commission and Planning Development Department.

1:51:46Um. Was there um Any connection to the north, a stub out? I know there's nothing on now, but um did we not discuss having some kind of future connectivity going north?

1:52:03So this is a Euclidean one, we really don't restrict that, but it is part of our LAN development code to provide interconnects.

1:52:10And so do they have a sub out to the north?

1:52:13So Euclidean zoning. There is no site plan.

1:52:17Okay, well I'll ask the applicant when she comes up.

1:52:21Okay. Any other questions for staff at this time? The applicant?

1:52:32Good afternoon again. Barbara Well High [address removed]. Okay.

1:52:39So we'll try not to uh duplicate your staff's presentation.

1:52:45As we have as been presented to you, the total acreage is 40.2 acres, 29.8 acres uplands, remainder wetlands, MF1 zoning for 162 townhomes, gross 4.1 units per acre, net 5.4 units per acre, 5.4 units per developable acre for a townhome project is on the low side for townhome density. When I show you this the concept plan, you'll be able to see how that works out. The

1:53:15comp plan is res 6, which allows up to 194.49, which is 194 units, we're requesting 162, which is 20% lower than your comp plan density. Trip comparison to the current zoning, the existing zoning allows 152 units, and the decrease between the fact that going from single family to townhomes decreases your traffic in the AM by 39% and the PM by 28%. Over what's the property is owned today. Context,

1:53:47you've just seen this. This is the urban service area. So not only do you have Res 6, it has been Res 6 for many, many years. But you also in 2008 made this your urban concentration area and you also have done quite other work in this area to look at what your road network needs to be as growth occurrence.

1:54:07This is our site in comparison to the different things that are going on around it. As you can see you've got Wells Road extension, Brispy Downs extension coming up. And our site will have, there's a condition that says that our access to Tupper will be emergency. until you have the road network over here so we can get our project over to your Bruce B. Down extension at that point our project will have to have full access to Tupper Road once it's improved.

1:54:37This is our concept plan. Correct, we're doing Euclidean zoning, um, but we do have connectivity to the north and to to Tupper Road on your southern side as well as our entrance which is on Caroline Drive.

1:54:56This is Caroline Drive entrance. This is Yeah

1:54:59right there. Can I mean uh is are you saying that that could step out to the north eventually?

1:55:05That is what your code requires, and we're not asking for any variation from that code. Your code requires that connection. Right here. Okay,

1:55:13so that That will continue on. Okay, and and th and you know, people that live there need to know that that's a future road connection. Correct. Not a cul-de-sac, a tea cul-de-sac, right? Good point. Okay.

1:55:27Some of the other things that you'll see with this with this site plan, you'll see the things that um Liam uh said to you regarding buffers and building setbacks, for example, along this property line, along all of our property lines, our building setback is forty feet. Compared to the existing zoning, which today allows 25 feet, allows residences within 25 feet of your property lines. Um This is forty feet. Um but

1:55:58for right now you can have um pools within five feet of the promptly lines and all of our buildings will be back forty feet.

1:56:04So um the driveways on the right of the townhome seem to be longer than the driveways on the left side. What's going on there?

1:56:13I think it's just the picture. I can tell you that the deed restrictions call for a minimum driveway length of twenty three feet.

1:56:22And so I think that's just a picture. The other thing that you'll notice from this is is the buffering. We have enhanced buffering and where we've chosen to put our ponds and our and our amenities. Our enhanced buffering is 30 feet type B on the south and east side of the project. Right now the current zoning requires no buffer to the south. We can have homes to homes, no buffers. And the east requires A type A under the current zoning, 10 feet. We're providing

1:56:52three times that at 30 feet. We're going from an A buffer, which is required the current zoning on this east side, to a type B buffer under your code. The code requires would be a 15-foot under for multifamily, and we're proposing 30 feet. What we really tried to do here, Commissioner, is when I said I noticed. that density um of five point four units per acre being very low on townhomes. We provided by keeping the density down, provided the ability to

1:57:22have larger building setbacks, more landscaping, as well as dedicated parking. We had the conversation about parking. Um This site plan is far enough along that we have committed to 70 visitor spaces. Those are dedicated visitor spaces outside of the driveways. So in addition to the minimum code requirements, there's 70. And they've been put in places so they'll be very usable by the residents and their guests. We have a fence

1:57:52surrounding the project. As you've heard, um Caroline Drive is substandard. We were asked by staff. To just make a substantive road payment. And that's what the re code requires. It's substandard because of pavement quality, not because of width. This is a b this road is to standard other than the pavement has worn down over time. It's the pavement quality that makes it substandard. But instead of just paying um into it, my clients offered and has agreed to in a deed restriction to pave

1:58:23to county standards. Caroline Drive from State Road 54 to the to the entrance. Caroline Drive is a public road, it's stubbed out to this property. So this is the continuation of of Caroline Drive into this project. The other thing that we were asked by um Planning Commission to do is to provide a sidewalk on the west side of Caroline Drive. There's no requirement for that. Your substandard road ordinance doesn't require sidewalks at all. They don't

1:58:53consider it. So we're going above and beyond. and and going to provide a sidewalk on that uh west side of Caroline Drive, which exceeds the code as well.

1:59:04I've just ran through all those standards as well as Liam said all the things that we're agreeing to. So this is the rendering of this project. We do have a a builder developer and this is

1:59:16their product. Okay, that was gonna be my question. And that's very nice looking. And it's those are trees, not understory bushes. And those are street trees.

1:59:25We this was created for this project. We didn't just go pick this somewhere. So that's our project. Thank you. If you have any questions, I have my team here.

1:59:33Any questions for the applicant?

1:59:35Uh everything.

1:59:36Mr. Weightman,

1:59:37just be clear. Be consistent. These are platted, fee simple, not rentals.

1:59:44That's that's correct.

1:59:46Thank you.

1:59:47Yeah. Is this what they're gonna look like, Barbara?

1:59:52This was created by David Weekly Holmes for this particular project.

1:59:56Okay. Okay. Mr. Chairman, just as I said in the last project, this is Euclidean. You do apparently have deed restrictions that you've already offered up on this project, right?

2:00:06That's correct. Seven twelve of them. Correct. But

2:00:11that's correct. What a difference between this and the other one that we saw. Yeah. And I'm gonna tell you that the street trees make a huge difference.

2:00:21Uh I'm gonna ask the applicant a question. Barbara, sorry.

2:00:25If you would put the picture up on the connectivity part.

2:00:35No, I'm failing at the uh PowerPoint exercise.

2:00:44On the top right part there's a road that tees into abutting your property there, but you don't connect to that. Why is that?

2:00:52You're speaking to our east? Yeah. Commissioner Yeah. Yeah, to the east. That's a that's a gated saddle ridge community, gated private roads. We have no legal ability to uh connect.

2:01:04That's

2:01:04what happens when you gate 'em set.

2:01:07What about on the top part? Is it still gated all the way up there? As it goes out to the other way?

2:01:12That road you see here, saddle ridge starts at a gate right here. It goes this way and then this way. They have a it's private, it's private all the way to the right.

2:01:23All the way past that property. Yes. Okay.

2:01:27Yeah, Chair, that was a series of corporate road easement.

2:01:31Okay. Very good. Thank you. Thank you. All right. This is the time for public comment. Anyone here from the public want to speak to this item? We

2:01:41have uh folks signed up. Uh Teresa Bayles.

2:01:47Yeah.

2:01:48Party for a second. Have you

2:01:51wrapped that up?

2:01:59Cham your name and address and if you would confirm that you were sworn.

2:02:03Yes, my name is Teresa Bayles. I live at [address removed], and I was sworn in.

2:02:10Thank you.

2:02:13Um, I would like to speak to this project. I brought some pictures because pictures are worth a thousand words. I've lived in this neighborhood for 20 years. Um it's beautiful out there. Caroline Drive has half anchor lots, we live on acre lots. Um I was kind of taken back by the Tupper Road project, didn't know that was coming down the road, but I run down Tupper Road out to the interstate and back, so I'm familiar with that part personally. Um I would like to say that I'm opposed to this project. mainly because of the traffic. Um

2:02:45This is a picture of the intersection of Saddlebrook and Highway 54 at the corner of Tupper Road. That stop sign that says right turn only is coming off Tupper Road. You have to go right to go towards I-75 on Highway 54. The next picture please.

2:03:02Mm-hmm.

2:03:04This is taken at the East side of Tupper Road looking at the intersection of Saddlebrook going towards I-75, going west on Highway 54. Next please. Am I supposed to be pushing something? I feel like I'm like okay. Um this is just another picture of that area. So my I understand when you have a problem you're supposed to come with a solution. My solution instead of driving all those 300 cars down

2:03:34Caroline Road, which is a substandard road, which they said they're going to fix. is not the answer. I think it is to go down Tupper Road, especially since Tupper Road is supposed to connect to other roads in the future and you're building eight more homes down Tupper Road. Um the next picture please.

2:03:53This is the community Brookside, which was a Southern Living Home community, beautiful community. When they come out of there, they have to go Right? to an ingress lane, make a U-turn to go west on Highway 54. Um they have no direct access in and out of their neighborhood on fifty four unless you're going to Zephyrhills. Okay, the next one please. This is the ingress lane coming to west, no east on 54 towards Caroline Drive. This is

2:04:23what we have when um this when 54 was widened, this was the uh agreement that they came up with so we can turn into our neighborhood. We were not afforded a light. At that intersection, so we have this ingress lane that goes into Caroline Drive. The next picture please. This is taken looking at the lane. This is it. Ten o'clock in the morning. We have to play frogger to try to get across the road to get down Caroline Drive. You're gonna have another sixty a hundred and sixty two homes built on the end of Caroline Drive to try

2:04:54to get traffic to go that way. You next picture please. This is cars coming out of Caroline Drive going west. These are cars pulling into Caroline Drive, traffic on 54. Next. When we come out on Caroline Drive, the only way we can go is right. Now we have knuckleheads that go straight across the road and go left, but that's illegal. So in order to go left and go towards Zephyrhills, we have to go down to the light of Saddlebrook, make a U-turn, and go back to go east on Highway

2:05:2454. This is a guy doing a U-turn right there. So you've got traffic coming out of Caroline, you've got U-tures going on, you've got traffic coming from the left. Yeah. Okay, next is the speed limit on Caroline. This is a picture of Caroline. Um going north. The speed limit is 30 miles an hour. Next. Some county commissioner asked the last time what this the planning guy asked what speed limit was. This is the dead end. This is the entrance to the property that's going to be rezoned. And to the right is the entrance into

2:05:54our neighborhood, Saddle Ridge Estates. Next, please. This is the picture you were asking about what that road was that was next to it. This is the gated community going in there. Okay next. This is the Woods property. This is on taking on Tupper Road. This is the emergency entrance that they're going to use to put out onto Tupper Road. Um this is the guy's property that has all that acreage. This is the woods property to the right. Next, please. This is taken from Tupper Road

2:06:24looking down towards going to 54. That is that this is the dead end road where those other eight houses are going. Next, please. I'm talking as fast as I can. This is the emergency entrance. My suggestion would be to make the entrance to the community. Go in this emergency access and use Tupper Road. Next, please. You can go past that one. This is next. And this is the paved part, which is at Downey and Tupper. There's a section that's paved, and the rest is dirt to pave to

2:06:5554. That's all I have.

2:06:58Thank you.

2:06:59Thank you very much for your guys' time. I appreciate you reading my emails too that I sent. Thank you.

2:07:06And next person?

2:07:07We have signed up um sorry Nora Robert.

2:07:17And is there anyone else in the audience?

2:07:23Ms. Robuck if you would again confirm your address and whether you were sworn.

2:07:27Sure, Nora Robuck and address is [address removed] and I was sworn in.

2:07:36So I have many concerns as well as most of the residents here. My main concern is the traffic. And right now there is no traffic light. Um obviously the traffic is increasing on Highway 54. We are now going to be crossing three lanes of traffic. Limit on 54 is uh 45 miles per hour, but no one's doing that. We're literally

2:08:07trying to dodge cars as it is. I can't even imagine adding all of this um traffic that this townhome community is going to bring. Um also I know that there was a traffic analysis done as well, but I don't believe the traffic analysis. includes the more than thousand homes that are going in just three and a half miles going east, three and a half miles going west, all the homes that are being built. So we're not even taking into

2:08:37consideration of that and as it is right now we are challenged to cross from 54 to get onto Caroline. Same thing in the morning. You're literally Really at zero speed pulling out into traffic where cars are going 45-50 miles an hour. So, I mean, I am truly concerned for the residents, my family. I have a young driver in the house. I I just I'm really sad that we've even gotten this far with this

2:09:07project.

2:09:10Also, I will say um this is one thing too. I believe in the Planning Commission there was this. Yes, thank you. So I'm also I've been a realtor for 18 years, and I really can't think of a townhome community where you have to go through an older residential area where the lots are larger. Everyone lives on a larger lot inside. Battle Brook, we're on an acre plus.

2:09:39So the examples that they gave here, I actually I agree with it. This is perfect. This is where you should see a townhome community. These are planned unit developments. There are multiple points of entry, and all of these communities have a traffic light for the safety of those residents where we do not.

2:10:02Um so also I again I would say as a realtor for the last eighteen years in this area, I know that there's a housing demand. We have hundreds and hundreds of town homes that are gonna be completed by the end of the year. That's not even including what's going on on Curly Road. Right now the demand is luxury homes or upscale homes, which gentleman just present presented before us. That is the need, that's the demand. I

2:10:33guess I would just ask you to please consider our safety, our lives, um, and just know that we know something will be built there. We're just asking you to continue to complement what we already have on Caroline.

2:10:49Thank you.

2:10:52Anyone else from the audience wish to address this item this item? Anyone want on WebEx?

2:11:00No sir.

2:11:01Okay. We're going to close public comment. To the board. Commissioner Weightman. Thanks, sir.

2:11:07Mr. Chairman, do you want to give the applicant rebuttal?

2:11:10Um let's hear from the applicant first.

2:11:20Barbara Wilhite for the applicant. Sound like most of the discussions regarding traffic, we do have a our traffic engineer, Steve Henry, here that can go through and discuss any traffic issues you want to discuss. I would state that we have been thoughtful the access our access management analysis will have to look at that intersection of 54 and Caroline Drive, which is off-site. And we did a deed restriction that says that if that access management analysis must One, the access management analysis will include that intersection even though it's off-site.

2:11:50Usually you do access management at your entrance. And if a longer turn lane is warranted, we'd commit to that as well. So I just wanted to point that out because I didn't make that a part of my presentation before. Steve Henry is available if you want to hear uh more from him regarding traffic or we can answer questions.

2:12:10Commissioner Weightman.

2:12:11Thank you. So This property already has entitlements on it. It could be The number of town homes that's listed here are what, 155 single family units? What's that what's the number?

2:12:27One sixty-two town homes and one hundred and fifty-two single family homes are zoned for now.

2:12:32Right. So that's it's got existing entitlements. Uh one's gonna have less traffic than the other, but it goes to to the point of what what would we have approved on this site. based on the the neighboring how the current homes are being built if this property didn't already have its entitlements. Just just food for thought. When you travel this area, and this has been my concern for months now, and we've talked, and you know, we've talked the DOT about this. This area is so

2:13:02congested with folks coming in and out of Saddleburgh, in and out of it's dangerous, frankly. It's it's really dangerous in and out of Brookside and then you come and you try to turn north and you're crossing three lanes in the Caroline Drive you have Tupper which is a substandard road you're gonna you know Flipboards approved today and the the the future. This area is is is ripe for being fixed. What that what the fix is, I'm not sure. It's fifty it's it's fifty or

2:13:32but that's not that's a vision. That's way way on out there. We're adding potentially hundreds of units and then more coming on, more more folks traveling up and down Tupper and they're gonna have to just make a right hand turn only and folks coming off Caroline and coming coming through and having to turn right out on to to fifty four. It it's the the traffic in this area and then what's potentially going to change is potential of Saddlebrook. This entire area something

2:14:03needs to happen. We need to have I think an emergency action plan of what we're gonna do to alleviate the traffic safety, something in that area. When all these units come online traveling. I I wish you would you have Walmart right there, folks flying up and down east to west. It's it's a it's a it's a troubled traffic float area and that's my biggest concern with all the projects that are that are going in right here. It's

2:14:34you all travel in Sabbath. So I I I'd like to hear Board's thoughts on what we can do to keep folks safe live who live in this area.

2:14:43If I may, there there's a process by which we go through the Yes sir. Let me let me have control of the first.

2:14:52Just to the uh west of Saddlebrook you've got that new vis that road coming up with a new light and that vision there's a vision road I believe there that travels to the north. Does it connect somehow to this project? Does anyone know?

2:15:06Yeah.

2:15:07No, but it's come. Roads always come after, you gotta remember.

2:15:12If you wanted to reload me.

2:15:16I can show you where our project is compared to them.

2:15:27I can't remember which way I'm supposed to go there.

2:15:31So this is our project, and then you see which is Bruce B. Downs extension coming from Bruce Down, Bruce B. Downs coming across Wiregrass, Saddlebrook if approved, we'll do the piece of of um of wire uh excuse me of Bruce Bowns extension from Wiregrass Boulevard 54 spoke to Scott Sheridan today and that is in the works. Um I have no doubt that if Saddlebrook is approved that piece will be done. The conditions for Saddlebrook say you can't have the first CO in development area one until that road is constructed.

2:16:02So that road's coming. So it's a matter of the rest of the road. You can see there's quite a bit of property around this property. That's all owned by the same owner. A project will come in here and we'll provide the solution to bring this road up to here and then to here. It means something when you all plan your vision roads. I actually think I remember we didn't have vision records when I was in the county. These roads are are you look at build-out, you

2:16:32look at well it's gonna grow, and you come up with these these other roadways to move traffic around. Um our project is here, this is tougher road, tougher road eventually will be also you see that there's property on this side. So Tupper Roads could be improved. It didn't require it to be improved. At this point, you've got the proportion of your payment because that's what's required of the code. But Tupper Road will be improved. This project will have full access to Tupper Road. When it's improved, I think the rest of this roadway is going to

2:17:02fill, this notebook is going to fill in as this vacant property here is developed. From fifty-four all the way up and around. We'll be a piece of that and we're gonna do Go over the code to improve Caroline Drive. It's only a quality issue with the pavement. It is a standard road, except for the pavement quality is older. We're going to extend the turn lane at Caroline. We'll look at that at access management analysis. If the access management analysis says you need to extend it 100 feet, 200 more feet, we will do

2:17:32that. So Just want to give you the bigger picture of of what's going on. I don't I understand what you're saying, Commissioner, and I think you're looking for a a broader discussion, but from a project perspective, you know, meeting and exceeding and fitting fitting into all these plans, um that's kind of where we're coming from. Oh can I Oh

2:17:51okay. Um I have some questions. Let me go let me go to the resident commissioner again. So I'll come back to you.

2:17:56Thank you. And I appreciate these vision roads there. Their vision Fifteen years from now or however long. But my concern is the immediate. There are their approved densities on the Caroline Drive site.

2:18:12When we had that many folks, the townhome study shows it's going to be less traffic than single family, but nonetheless, it's still a lot of traffic. A lot more traffic ending in to 54. With limited movement. You have to go west and figure out how to come back east or how you guys would they would potentially south of there on the Saddlebrook site more folks. My concern is

2:18:45We we really need to work uh you mentioned your turn lane, that that could la alleviate some some safety, but I like our staff to get with DOT and really talk about light time and we Andy and I met with DOT two weeks ago and they talked they mentioned that they had it's been a a while since they looked at the light time being the light cycle through here. And this has been, if you look back, this has been my my n number one concern from this I really Bruce P. Downs moving

2:19:15east on fifty four is the traffic and the number of lights and people having to cross three lanes to make a U turn to go one way or another. And so that's that's that's a that's a real life daily concern that the folks living in this area face every day. And then we're gonna you know, more folks move in and then there it's just compounding the issue. So um I guess it's more of a car point made to Mr. Karbala and his his

2:19:46team on you know it's it's important maybe if there's a way to talk about once we get the the Tupper an improved Tupper Road soon sooner than later and then it has a different access point potentially for the flow of traffic. So

2:20:00hold on.

2:20:00I'm just throwing that out there for folks to be thinking about the future of the roadway system immediately in this area.

2:20:07Mr. Starkey.

2:20:08Um an in and looking at this map

2:20:13There's so many neighborhoods here and if you look at them you will see like look where it says stop step down look at the neighborhoods where it says down They don't connect to each other. Everybody has to go out on in and out on the same road. That is a recipe for disaster. This is what we have done by not requiring connectivity between the neighborhoods. I and s and It it it's very hard to fix this once you've allowed that

2:20:43to happen because

2:20:47Because you'd have to take out houses, buy a house in this neighborhood and a house in that neighborhood. and put a road through to connect 'em, but we shouldn't be Putting in these neighborhoods That don't connect to each other. Um

2:21:03I I am uh I sure don't want to see when that other piece of property that wraps around this one comes in You know, it doesn't need to be townhomes. It can be nicer homes. We need those in the county. Can't have everything being townhomes. Uh but I just I just frustrated that we've allowed so many neighborhoods that don't connect to other roads. And you all have to get out you have to get in and out of fifty four, in and out of fifty two. We're doing it again on State

2:21:33Road fifty two, I'm telling you. And and we're get we're gonna get ourselves in trouble.

2:21:38Like I I I look at the stub outs, I'm like, Well Where is it gonna I mean maybe it'll eventually hit Division Road, but your option is to the east to get to Boyette or you know, Cooper Road which is an unpaid basement basically. Um it's just it's it's tough. So when we go to plan the future of this this all this this land that's left here and really we're still the same board.

2:22:01Well we would make the development of looking

2:22:05look bigger, so I uh I appreciate your time.

2:22:08Commissioner Oakley. All right. When you look at the safe way out of this Tupper Road and going on the fifth floor is not to go straight across and take a left. We know that. We have our own engineers in-house that can look at timing of lights and tweak those to make them right. So the way out of Tupper Road is basically the safest way is right turn on. We have some other areas in in the county already. On to

2:22:38Island Boulevard there's one especially uh Silver Oaks, they should have a right turn only 'cause there's been some deadly accidents coming out of that area. So But we have traffic folks that can do that tweaking of lights and they can look at this project and I'm sure Mike uh can express to them.

2:22:58There's no light turn.

2:23:00Hmm?

2:23:00There's no light that that's

2:23:02No no. A right turn only, no light.

2:23:07I still a safe turn out of that without going to your left. You have to go down and move over and be safe and make a U turn to come back the other way.

2:23:15There's no right hand turn into Caroline or Tupper Road. You put your blanker on and over.

2:23:21No, I I understand it. I'm talking about coming out. I'm not talking about going in.

2:23:27There's there's

2:23:28no

2:23:28lighter. There's no it's only a saddle room.

2:23:31Yeah. There's no lighter topper.

2:23:33And the next one is the is the boat where the old uh Post offices were Boyette the bypassing Boyette rope popped up and there's a light there. Um

2:23:46they and dying that band dying for we're dead where the new road the Boyette comes straight and it's van dyne and it's by the racetrack there.

2:23:55Yeah. Okay. Um you're done? Okay. So you know I'm I'm glad the residents came forward 'cause You know, we we heard very similar things from people that live in Brookside at the Saddlebrook thing about going out and around. We heard that people coming from outside of Saddlebrook with the apartments to be looping around where they gotta go this way and they're all gonna go seventy five percent going back to seventy five. So with all that stuff going on, never mind all the apartments coming down fifty-four. And keep in mind I told you when

2:24:25I came back from five going to Saddamark one day from 581, 45 minutes, taking from 581 and 56 into Saddamark, 45 minutes from back out. When you throw more density in here and you've got a very unique situation where you've got a series of lights that they can't time. And then anyone who goes up and down nineteen you can see that it's tough to time lights, but you don't even have lights sequence where you can even get to it. You're gonna have a very difficult turn. And if you've got all this extra density coming in, trying to make that left in.

2:24:56And you get a couple of crazy people trying to make a left out and I you can go look at data in front of the old Walm oh the new Walmart uh small store at Little and Ridge Road, the accidents there by people jumping out and jumping over when they shouldn't be going that way. Uh you're gonna see some big, big accidents. Um I I I appreciate the developer. I think he's great. I think he does a phenomenal job. Uh your presentation's good, but when you look at the traffic, when I first was elected one of the first things we did was actually

2:25:26put a lot of money into this intersection. Ton of money. Yeah.

2:25:29Trying

2:25:30to approve it. But then we keep on improving development, development, development, and guess what? We just had to go spend a whole bunch of money on Divergent Diamond. This road had been built many years ago, going up and through? Maybe. It would have helped. Right? But it's could be years down the road. We're talking about how we don't wanna like talked about it earlier today. You don't want to allocate special money to go to a certain area when you want to approve a development. You're gonna be sitting sitting in a situation where you're gonna create another problem that we don't

2:26:00need to have. Going through here. This area is jam-packed. 54 is a is Just jam-packed, it's gonna get worse when the development just finishes up. Even if we do nothing else, we're gonna have traffic issues. Yeah. So I I I I I I can't support what's going on.

2:26:27Um farm. Mr. Starkey. Yeah, I want to ask the the applicant's attorney again. Um can you say again what you know about the Bruce B. Downs extension? Because that will be a major reliever for this, but but I just want to make sure I've heard

2:26:44Yeah, so this portion here, Wiregrass has the obligation to construct This portion here, Wiregrass, has the obligation to give the right-of-way for. This project Saddlebrook is working with Wiregrass on the specific alignment that this is going to take if this project over here is approved. that this project's gonna take. So this P, this is going to be done. And Going north, this project here has an obligation to give

2:27:14right away in their current MPD. Wait, wait, what's the project has to do it? This project right here, going north, so we we've covered from Bruce Bay Downs up to 54. This project here, there's an MPD approved that has to give right of way.

2:27:30We already approved

2:27:31one? Yep, yes.

2:27:32It's uh in the land that surrounds the site your site?

2:27:38Over here.

2:27:39Yeah. 'Cause that looks like a wetland, so what project are you talking about?

2:27:43There there is a project here that has the obligation to give right away.

2:27:47And what is what is the project?

2:27:51Okay. What

2:27:51is it? Stony Brook M PUD. Staff knows better than me. I like TV. Stony Brook M PUD right

2:27:57here.

2:27:57Stoney Brook? Yeah, as a they're at the corner of what would be your fur future Vision Road and 54. They have an obligation to give right-of-way. So the the missing pieces are going through this property. up here, which is under ownership. So

2:28:16Solutions to traffic are through your vision roads. Your vision roads are based upon growth. I'm and

2:28:21I'm sorry if I can uh interrupt you. So from fifty four to Tupper, is that what Stony Brook has to build? Or they just have to give the right of way. Stony

2:28:30Brook has to give the right of way.

2:28:33adjacent to their property for your Vision Road.

2:28:36And the impact fees that are coming from saddlebrut or mobility fees.

2:28:45Or the I mean For a question. Well, uh is there is that enough to fix that road? No, because we've got Pasco Town Center to the north of this, right? This this feeds Pasco Town Center way up there in the right-of-way.

2:28:57Eventu eventually your road here does go. It's

2:28:59an important road. It's a

2:29:00parallel road, right? It's a very important road.

2:29:03I just wonder how long it'll take to get to Temple.

2:29:07How long to get to top oh till this piece is done? Yeah. I think your solution is is I think you'll see the development pressure for this property. you can see it's it's the only vacant larger piece of property you have in the area. The the development pressure's gonna come and our investment Rose? Rose is not a bad thing. Density's not your enemy. Um So the development pressure is here for these this large tract around us, one ownership, I think that project

2:29:37will come in and work with the county on a solution to get these road the rest of the roads done. Just like Wiregrass is doing this and Saddlebrook's going to do this piece. So development can do these roads. We are. Our project is proposing less density than what it's approved for today. So uh

2:29:56The project to the left of that line, I'm gonna try and blow it up here. It's not gonna connect to the Vision Road or Tu or Tupper, is it? It's a one or Tupper. The which project? The one the one that has the words Bruce B. Downs on it. It's already built.

2:30:14That is a built project right there.

2:30:15And it doesn't connect to anything.

2:30:18I believe that's

2:30:19the

2:30:19same.

2:30:22No Your network that you have. We don't ha we didn't have vision roads back then. Right. Your your vision roads are It's coming up the side. are a pretty good system of roads to uh provide for traffic flow.

2:30:34So going back to Tupper and Caroline, is there any reason why we can't this project can't use both those roads? And

2:30:42physically it's actually interesting. Physically our site can connect. You see these roads here. Whoops.

2:30:55Not a very good close up, but Look at something. Tupper? And then Caroline. Yeah. And then the roads go and then the roads go east west. Those roads people along those roads, the south of us, can go Tupper or they can go to Caroline. There's it's physically connected, this is all physically connected, these homes to either Caroline or Tupper.

2:31:25So they're they actually have access to two different ways.

2:31:28Can I see your site plan again if you don't mind? Sure.

2:31:39So that's Caroline. Uh and what's to the left there? This is Caroline coming up right there. Okay, Tupper Tupper would be

2:31:47And Tupper is right off of here. It's right here. Coming comes up right And

2:31:53are are you connected to that or you're not connected to that?

2:31:56We are providing emergency access until Tupper Road's approved. Then that converted to SD restrictions converted to full access. Your staff and the Planning Commission both pointed out that we We want to see it full access, we want to see you have access to Tupper Road when it's improved. We want to see you to have access to Division Road by via Tupper Road. And again when you look at what's going on. Because you have one property Around the

2:32:26site. You've got vacant property in the north at the segment of Tupper Road. You've got vacant property to the south. You're now taking money to go towards Tupper Road by approving the project earlier today. So so these roads are all gonna come into play as this last piece here comes into play.

2:32:48And And was Tupper Road off of fifty four paved or non paved? I don't going

2:32:55Steve is I'm gonna I'm getting beyond what I know about the road conditions out there. I understand it's It's Tupper Road is somewhat paved, somewhat not paved, it is substandard. Like I said on Caroline, the only thing that makes Caroline substandard is the pavement quality at this point. It's an older road, but the width of it is standard. Um Steve, do you know more about Tupper

2:33:17Okay, we're gonna

2:33:18fix. He's looking. We we don't We We don't access Tupper Roads. Mm-hmm.

2:33:28And what were you gonna do to Caroline, right? We're gonna pave it. Um instead of just what your code requires and what your staff asked of us was a proportionate share payment under the code. We're gonna pave it to county standards. We're gonna this developer is going to pay Um to make that road standard, uh pavement quality 'cause everything else is standard already. And they're also going to add a sidewalk on the west hand side.

2:33:53Which your substantive road ordinance doesn't contemplate.

2:34:03Anything else for the applicant?

2:34:07That's it. I just but what could

2:34:09happen now

2:34:09without our approval?

2:34:13Current zoning is 152 more trips than what town homes. Town homes produce less trips, so this is less trips. You've got a good developer here, you've got a lot of deed restrictions. I think we you you have a you have the ability for a very quality project and we'd ask for you to to support

2:34:32Commission Wait.

2:34:37It's less trips, more trips. Still there's entitlements on the property that's gonna generate more folks and more traffic in the area. I appreciate the folks working on this project, you know, wanting to re go and do the work that needs to be done on Caroline Drive. That's not necessarily something they have to do and I'm very appreciative of that and then and then the and the quality of the product that they're looking at building there and the concessions that have been made. to

2:35:08this piece of property um I'm you know, appre appreciative of Ms. Watt, your client's willingness to work and to and to build something nice and then build something that has real value to it and then do their best to improve you know the quality of life and and and the life of the folks living in this area is going to change. It's basically going to change overnight when these projects get approved and the volume of traffic come out. So it's a it's

2:35:38a quick change to the area. which goes to my concern with both roads are essentially substandard, but we have Uh project that's going to improve one. We have another Oak Tupper that it still comes the same thing. It dead ends at 54 and people have to turn right. They all go to the same red light. No plans in the near future to pave Temple or no plans in the near future to get the vision road done. And

2:36:08so, you know, look at the lesser two evils on what we vote on today on on this uh on this side. I I just ask that we work to find

2:36:21some sort of uh traffic management plan in the short time to to manage to manage all these folks and keep them safe as they're going to and from their home.

2:36:33Let me ask a question of staff if you don't mind. So the density they have currently is R1 rural Density residential. And R two low Density residential. Please explain to me how the statement where it's less dense if we go to the townhome project.

2:36:53There are less trips. What the applicant said was there was less trips.

2:36:57Okay, so that's what I was just

2:36:58saying.

2:36:59So tell me tell me how many homes would be on there first.

2:37:01Absolutely. So basically um the property has a split zoning of R one, which is two point two dwelling units per acre. And an R2, which is 4.6 doling units per acre. When you add all that up based on the areas that are R1 and R2, I actually came up with 153, but let's say that the applicant is correct at 152. But in terms of the trips, the traffic engineer can answer that question. And I believe what he's going to explain is that

2:37:31attached, you units produce less trips than do single family detached because I believe one of the things that happens in single f family detached is that they tend to be larger. units, uh more square footage. Um but I will allow that expert to state that.

2:37:50All right, but s stay with me. So for the units minus the wetlands, how many do you figure they can get?

2:37:55One fifty three. is what I got in gross.

2:38:00And remember one fifty three gross. And I have a question for her following what you're saying. Uh if they could do that today and not have to pave Caroline.

2:38:12That's correct. There was no condition of approval on the process.

2:38:14So this is generating less trips and paving Caroline with and adding a sidewalk. So that's why I'm inclined to approve.

2:38:29It's it's the better of both options, I'm sorry. Yeah, I I think this is the better thing. And this is a quality builder quality product.

2:38:38I I str I so I I just struggle with the units. I I just I just ca I can't see how they could get the same amount of units with the same

2:38:48So um so why don't we do multiplication together?

2:38:55Okay. So let's let's do the exercise. 27 acres approximately of R2 multiply 27 times 4.6.

2:39:07Who's doing it? Oakley.

2:39:09Okay.

2:39:10Is that a calculator

2:39:11in your hand or are you texting? So it that should give you, I think one twenty four. Your lawyer's got it. And then you take thirteen point two? At two point two. That should give you twenty nine. Add those two, you get 153.

2:39:32This is when you're going to be able to do that. And what about the weapons?

2:39:36I that's why I said this was gross, not nut.

2:39:39I'm talking about

2:39:40I th I would w literally probably sit for a while and figure it out. I don't think what we've been delineated, so we don't know the numb the the wetland Right,

2:39:53so that number could go down substantially.

2:39:55Potentially, yes.

2:39:56Alright, let's get get up on map pages. I want to see what the

2:39:59weather's up. Yeah, a and thank you for the applicant to tell me that. The code calculates it on the gross. So that's what we're doing. We're calculating the right-of-way.

2:40:06I understand. I'm talking reality though. I want to know how many trips are really gonna happen.

2:40:11Is that

2:40:12a button

2:40:13or a give an answer.

2:40:19I'm not looking for your trips. I'm looking for a count or how many buildings we can actually get there. I'm not looking for that. I want my answer first. Let's do math.

2:40:37How many weapons do we got out there? Drop up map pages if you have to. This is a big issue.

2:40:44So Map Pages is not Map Pages is not a full wetland delineation, so that's not a delineated wetland.

2:40:52Well to be

2:40:55We can do that.

2:40:59More math?

2:41:14Why don't we take a 10-minute break while staff takes a look and does a calculation for us?

2:41:18Okay.

2:41:22Take a ten minute break.

2:41:33Yeah.

2:53:18And if it doesn't have to be a good thing,

2:53:20so you're gonna never get Lee or John or anybody

2:53:23too.

2:53:27Yeah, I was uh Deputy Chief Assistant is a lobby body chief assistant.

2:53:47É quem corporar um like.

2:54:03Okay, Denise, so with the new calculation of the wetlands, what do we got?

2:54:08So here's what we've got. So basically the applicant has provided in their PowerPoint that you have approximately 10 acres that are wetlands on the property. So what we looked at is that we I had stated previously that 27 of those acres are within R2. We allocated two of those acres to be wetlands. So we said 25 upland. So twenty five multiplied by four point six. We're gonna get to the R one in a second. Twenty

2:54:38five multiplied by four point six is one fifteen.

2:54:44Ten altogether.

2:54:45Twenty five?

2:54:47So altogether the acreage is forty acres. It's forty point two is forty acres, okay? So 27 acres are R2. We're allocating two eight two of those acres as wetlands, so you get 25. Times 4.6 is 115. Then the 13 acres, most of the wetlands is in that area. So we're allocating eight acres to that. So that leaves us with 13 minus 8 is So

2:55:19you multiply five by 2.2 and you get 11. And 115 plus 11 is 126. So that's what we're getting.

2:55:33One twenty six. And what was the other no the other number we had?

2:55:35The other number we had was one fifty three. The applicant's saying one fifty two, but that's fine. I mean it's just off by one. Come on in it.

2:55:44Bart. So just so factually factually, I'm trying to be helpful here. What Steve Henry was gonna tell you is that single family homes ninety six equals one sixty two town homes. So you are still even if you use the one twenty five number that Ms. Hernandez came up with, still a decrease in trips.

2:56:08Okay.

2:56:08And you get a looking. And

2:56:11a sidewalk. And a sidewalk.

2:56:16Well well, it's gonna be sidewalk with more traffic. Kids need a place to ride a bike safely.

2:56:31Okay,

2:56:31where are we? Um you want to hear from the traffic consultant or you just want to take Barbara's methodology?

2:56:40Uh before I had some ex parte I had a rookie move here, some ex parte communications and uh On this subject with the residents in Caroline Drive, so I'd submit this for the record, the names of the folks that spoke with.

2:56:55Okay. Do we a motion received and filed?

2:56:58Wait, what was your motion?

2:57:00So yeah. I had just a reminder when there's a break. Don't talk to the Either the applicants or the residents or it's ex parte contact just especially after you close public comment. So I ask the commissioner to disclose that.

2:57:19Okay.

2:57:22Okay. Disclosed.

2:57:25Uh any other questions for applicant or staff?

2:57:35No questions?

2:57:36Yeah.

2:57:37Mm-hmm. All right, I'll just I'm just gonna ask Steve Henry to come up and just give me the give me the data on the trips.

2:57:46Sure, what I did was r run some quick numbers on the 126. So basically if you have 126 homes compared to the 162 townhomes, it would result in about eleven less trips in the AM peak hour and about twenty-nine less in the PM peak hour. So in both instances, the existing entitlements would generate more traffic than what we're proposing. Repeat that performance. It's uh eleven trips in the AM, less is what we're proposing over what

2:58:16is currently allowed on the property, and twenty nine in the P M DM. So it's a net reduction in traffic.

2:58:26And those are peak hour trips. Those are peak hour trips, correct. And obviously obviously we use the lesser decrease in the data also.

2:58:38You're confident that what you're proposing is indeed less trips than Carolina Drive.

2:58:46Correct, yes. Single family home program. Correct we we base our numbers are based on ITE, which is national data that has done studies on hundreds and hundreds of different single family and town home projects. And historically always all the numbers town home generate less traffic per unit than single family. And part of it is most townhomes have less kids is really what it boils down to. Single family tip tend to have more kids, more traffic in and out than townhomes do.

2:59:16And so per unit, a townhome project has less traffic. And that's national data. That's also data out of you know what you guys use for mobility fees, but it is less traffic per unit.

2:59:28But is it possible in this demographic area where the schools, et cetera, are being a great quality of life where it's hard for people to afford to live, this townhome project could get loaded up with more than proportionally done for the data you're using.

2:59:40On on average, again, it's not saying that there aren't any kids in townhomes. On average Town rooms generate less traffic. There are still kids in town. I'm saying on average there are less per unit than there would be on a typical single family.

2:59:58Um let me ask the applicant a question.

3:00:07Would the applicant take less units than what he's asking for right

3:00:11now?

3:00:13What you thought?

3:00:15One twenty six.

3:00:20Just one twenty six.

3:00:23Well is that one fifty three now? The same number as single.

3:00:30Okay. Thank

3:00:30you.

3:00:30I'm trying to figure out what the It's been a long day. It's only Tuesday. Sure. Um so you're asking if you would keep it the same number.

3:00:38Keep it the same number.

3:00:40But N there's numbers and trips. So we're trying to equiv equivalent we're trying to make something equivalent, it's not equivalent. I mean we're worried about trips and traffic and we've told you all about traffic but now we're just gonna arbitrarily cut a project. I mean it's you're just darting the project and And it's not gonna We already have less trips, so I He can answer for himself, I guess I can go ask them then. You know, it's it's been a long time since we just started cutting density to cut density.

3:01:12'Cause twenty seven years.

3:01:38Back to the days of Commissioner Hildebrand and Chinese auctions, my client can reduce down to one fifty and not kill the project.

3:01:50Oh one fifty from

3:01:52From one hundred sixty two.

3:01:57Which is even more of a reduction in the troops. Which is what you're all looking for.

3:02:01Move move to approve with the restrictions.

3:02:05Second. So just Because it's Euclidean. So the the applicant will revise its deed restriction to one fifty. That's correct. And with that reviv revision to the deed restriction, the commissioner is moving for approval.

3:02:34With the landscaping package package you showed us. So we don't have to go through we went through on the last one. On the

3:02:40record that's correct.

3:02:41Okay.

3:02:41Yeah.

3:02:42Any further discussion?

3:02:45I'll just say um it's unfortunate what's there, what's granted, and I think this is the best situation we can get. So all in favor say aye. Aye. Aye. Any opposed? Motion passes.

3:02:59Um

3:03:00I I think we need clarification of the motion because I know there was a comment about the Waiva site plan that that's not in it in the deed restriction. So I just wanna make sure that

3:03:13To be clear. Okay. So we're adding another date restriction. Yeah. And I put I think I put that in the record. That was a factual representation. Of the builder's product. Yeah, I don't know. Is that our last one?