Zoning Amendment (Consent) – Martha Joanne Wood Hinman – Change in Zoning from an R-1 Rural Density Residential District and R-2 Low Density Residential District to a MF-1 Multiple-Family Medium Density District – South Central Pasco County – North of Caroline Drive, West of Bridleford Drive – Containing Approximately 40.20 Acres
What the county recorded
Staff recommendation
Approve
No disposition in the minutes
The approved minutes do not say what became of this item. That is a gap in the record, not a decision. It is the normal state for 24% of items. Most of those are regular business and board reports that the minutes do not dispose of in writing. This archive never infers an outcome from the fact that someone called a vote.
The source document
The county’s agenda for Planning Commission, Mar 2, 2023
The published PDF, as served by the county. This item is one entry in it.
The county’s minutes for Planning Commission, Mar 2, 2023
The published PDF, as served by the county. This item is one entry in it.
This case, across meetings
PDD-23-7689 in full →PDD-23-7689 was taken up 3 times between Mar 2, 2023 and May 9, 2023, continued 1 time — this is appearance 1.
- Mar 2, 2023PlanningPC10▶No disposition in the minutesthis item
- Apr 4, 2023BoardP60▶Continued
- May 9, 2023BoardP70▶Approved
What was said
Machine transcription of 2h 6m of recording, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 79% of 669 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.
Taken up 2 times, not once through — set aside and returned to. Each stretch is below, in the order it happened.
1/2Taken up at 23:54
Item PC ten is gonna be polled. We do have some folks in opposition here.
P C ten, okay.
2/2Taken up again at 47:13
Lume Divine, Planning Development. This is for item PC ten. Before we weekend I have some housekeeping items that I need to take care of. Um I've received ex partees from Commissioner Starkey, Commissioner Weightman, um Planning Commission Member um Jamie Girardi and Planning Commission Member John Moody. Also, there was an update to you one of your finding and facts in your agenda packet, which has been submitted to the clerk's office and provided to each of one of you. And I'm gonna read that change into record here. So this is regarding finding and facts
number 13. R1 Rural Density Residential District and R2 Low Residential Density Sorry R2 Low Density Residential District would produce more trips than the proposed rezoning to MF1 multifamily medium density district with a deed restriction limiting the maximum dwellings to 162. The Institute of Transportation Engineers, ITE, trip generation management. Calculation shows a decrease of 63 trips.
It should say trip generation manual calculation show a decrease of 57 peak hour trips. So that was the change to that finding effect. I've also received a letter of opposition which I provided to each one of you on your dais and the clerk's office. And I would request if you make a motion to receive and file the updated agenda. M MO and letter of opposition.
Motion to receive and file. Second.
Motion is second.
All in favor? Hi. Aye.
Hi.
Okay. Item PC 10, PDD 23-7689. It is in the name of Martha Joanne Wood Hinman. It is a zoning amendment from R2 Rural Density Residential District and R2 Low Density Residential District to MF1 Multifamily Medium Density District. The subject site is located on the north side of Caroline Drive, west of Bradley Bradford Drive.
Bridal Bridal Ford Drive, thank you. Um the aerial view um for the subject site.
Yeah.
It's not working. There we go. Um the surrounding area. I would like to note there are vision roads just outside of the thousand foot um marker that's shown on this map. There is Vision Road H that runs from 54 North and Wells Road Extension just a little bit north of
here.
The surrounding future land use to the north is res 3, to the east is res 6, to the south is res 6, and to the west is res 6. The surrounding zoning
So the north, east, and west is all AR, and to the south is R1.
The subject site contains a barn and tree farm and approximately 40.2 acres. The applicant proposes to develop the property with 162 townhomes in conformance with the MF1 Multifamily Medium Density District Standards for Development. The applicant has provided a voluntary deed restriction as provided in your agenda packet. Access to the property is from Caroline Road, a county-maintained local road with approximately 60 feet of right-of-way and the septic site has a future land use classification of Res 6 and is also located in the urban service area. And
this is coming with a recommendation for approval from Planning and Development Department. I'm here if you have any questions.
Okay, any questions?
All right. The applicant present?
You look very similar to the last one.
I'll do my name and address. Barbara Will Hight, sixty three twenty seven Grand Boulevard.
Waiting for the magic wand.
And I did ask for the little This was on the consent agenda, so while we had a presentation ready, just in case, we had no reason to ask for additional time. But I have asked for additional time. Try to keep it within the five minutes, but um I want to make sure you get the information that you need to hear the matter.
Thank you.
So do you have any clicker or do you want me to just say something? Okay, I'll just say scroll when I'm ready to scroll or okay. We're trying to get it fixed up. Okay.
If you don't mind let them fix it. Just it makes the presentation a little smoother. If not. If they can't we can certainly go in a different direction.
Okay.
So this is a b uh bigger picture. I know sometimes the staff m um aerials are a little small, so I wanted to give you a little bigger picture of where we're at. Not that this totally shows you all the detail and we'll get closer up on the details here, but the general project location oriented to the interstate was a State Road 54. Project summary, we're we are talking about townhomes here. We have forty point two acres total. Our net uh density is gonna be five point four units per acre. and that's four units
per gross acre, which for our townhome projects on the lower end. And when I show you the site plan, you really see that, it'll jump out to you. I think you'll see that this is a a lower density townhome project. Our deed restrictions for 162 townhomes maximum and no appointments. You can see under the comp plan, this is res six, the comp plan density would allow for 194 units, and we're proposing 162.
So I want to talk about this slide. As you can see from your finding of fact number six that May thirteenth, two thousand and eight this piece of property was before the board and the board approved R one and R two. We're coming to you today to change it from single family detached to town homes. So the question would Would n naturally come up, what's different? So I want to tell you what's different. On March 13, 2008, 20 days before that BOCC meeting,
your first ULI came in. That first U L I was April twentieth. Through April twenty fifth, two thousand and eight. Things changed as a result of that 2008 ULI panel and their recommendations. You put in place market areas. You put in place an urban concentration area. So not only does this property have a Res 6 land use, saying that this is appropriate for six units per acre, and that's the vision for this area, but it also is in your urban concentration area, your south market area. And there's
policies that go with that that direct this kind of density in this location. And as you can see, it's well within the ur the urban service area. or also called the urban concentration area. The other thing that's significant when you see this slide is Vision Rose. 2008, they will probably know the date that Vision Rose really hit that they put that into the into play. But vision roads are something that the county has spent a lot of time in studying the build-out and where build out was is going to occur. They did a build-out model, I understand, to create the vision
roads, create their quarter preservation ordinance. Two significant roads in this area, vision roads.
This is a bigger picture of your vision road. This is Bruce Bowns extension, as you can see the north-south that comes all the way from Bruce Bowns through Wiregrass up through Saddlebrook, the corner of Saddlebrook. North. and goes north up to up to Overpass. Um, Boyette Road, Abba Pass in that direction. major north-south road planned. As well as Res Roll R Wells Road Extension. These projects here on the right that you see are Chapel Crossings and DePew uh Ranch
as well as um water grass. And you can also see how the growth is is filling in. So this area is planned, urban concentration area. This was after the 2008 board action. There's been a lot of planning done and a lot of visioning as to what the county is going to be. And this sits right squarely within that plan.
Our project will have uh townhome density and then to the south you'll hear the single family folks that are here and to our east. But what's visioned is and and Terry could probably speak to this even more, is that what'll happen is is because of these major roads, there'll be higher density and intensities as you approach that intersection will be what the planning is there. There's quite a bit of acreage to the around our project to the north and to the west. So I think that's ultimately sets, you know, how do we fit into the bigger picture?
This is just a a slide that shows, you know, we always hear, I've heard heard it for years and years and years and years, townhomes versus single family homes, and we have townhomes, they're attached product, they're still s they're still homes, they're just attached versus detached, and I think there's actually benefits, and I'll go through that when I show you the site plan. There's benefits to townhomes. um that some single family communities don't have.
This is the site plan. A couple things noteworthy here. You're gonna hear a lot about, I think, about Caroline Drive. Caroline Drive comes from State Road uh fifty four north to this project, and right now it
Mm-hmm.
It dead ends right at at this project, right at this property. So sixty foot right away, um flatted, county maintained. And then this pro so it was obviously the county knew that there was gonna be development and made Those roads continue all the way the property line so that that street pattern can be continued and connected for this development. The other thing you'll see if you look at this site plan is that along the eastern boundary there's additional we've we pulled that back there
are single family homes you can see them there are single family homes and then a road and then our product Um our town homes. The distance between the s the closest home that you'll see over there and our um closest home, our town home, it's about 153 feet. Half a football field. Yeah that so that that's our always very conscious of what we do on our adjacencies here. On the s the south um east
side, uh where we have some homes there, we've uh pur purposely located ponds there. You see a lot of ponds on here because of the density. We have property. Um So we're able to, you know, cluster those cluster those uh town homes and create a very nice um living environment. Right now, under the current zoning, these homes, the homes that are zoned, can be twenty-five feet from the property line and five in a pool within five feet of the property
line. All these units will be pulled back. from uh from the property line and how you see there. There's actually uh the other thing that's interesting about the site point is the extra parking. If I knew how to highlight any of that on this, I would do that. But there are extra there is extra parking built into this plan, guest parking, um separate and aside from driveways.
Mr. Chairman Mariano. Yes. Barbara, what is the on the southwest corner of the which you're showing here? Is that a roadway connection to something other than Caroline Draw?
That is that is um emergency access. Because we're over a hundred units we have to have emergency access and so that's the conception
to what?
There's there's a road there is
So that's that's an emergency access to chopper?
Yes.
I mean again it's the conceptual locational emergency access.
Okay. I think Liam I just would the when this goes to the board, I think you need to state that in your agenda because it only talks about access to Caroline, you probably need to say there's an emergency connection to Tupper Road, because that's not obvious from the agenda memo.
That's fine. It would be gated and only used for emergencies. None of our traffic can use it.
Mm-hmm.
One thing that I think is interesting over the zoning, talking about what's zone now versus what we're proposing, actually a significant uh decrease in the trip generation between the single family homes versus the attached town homes. the trip generation in the PM peak hour is thirty seven percent decrease and the AM peak hour is a twenty eight percent decrease. So over what's approved today, the maximum that's approved today, those that's the difference between
And with that I'm gonna sit down and let you hear t for public comment and we have a team
here. One more question. So Barbara, could you address Caroline Drive?
But I don't I can't tell is it paid but
let me try to It is The substandard condition is the pavement condition. It's a 60 foot right away, platted, county maintained. It's the pavement condition. And that's why there's a finding of fact that requires us to make a proportionate share payment. to that.
Okay. But it's pavement quality.
All right. Could could could could we get Mr. Henry just to come up since I suspect somebody's gonna argue this idea?
Tampa three three six oh seven. Uh so we have conducted a a substandard road assessment of the roadway. It generally speaking is about twenty two to twenty-four feet wide. Uh really the the the primary uh deficiency is the pavement and that you if you look at it and I certainly have pictures if you'd like to see those but the the the pavement section is is deteriorating there are potholes on the roadway but essentially that's that's the deficiency in the roadway and the developer is willing to has agreed not only to portion
its share but actually to go ahead and pave the road as a part of this project.
Okay, well then th that's an important statement that you just made.
Correct.
So
Yes it is.
So I don't want to just gloss over that 'cause 'cause that's very different than what the findings have. Absolutely,
correct. That that that is a new thing ha that has come about just recently, but he has committed he is committing to pave the road.
So
If that's an actual offer by the developer, I think it probably needs to be in the D restriction. So 'cause that's very different than what the memo says.
We can add that to the deed restriction and you can include that hopefully in a motion.
Okay.
Favorable motion at some point.
So you would so just so we're clear, the developers are opting to pave it to county standards from their entrance to fifty four?
That's correct.
Mm. Okay.
And that would be before your f you get your first what? Building permit CO, where we're
first you know final inspection. Final building inspection. Not allowed to say CO, but yes. We'll work on that language with with you as well.
Sixty five, I think.
I I d honestly I I don't I I would think it's around thirty, but I I honestly don't recall seeing a a speed limit sign on the road.
Cool.
I'll look and see if I can see one on it. But I I don't recall seeing one. I'm sure there is one but I I don't recall seeing one.
All right. Uh Uh anybody uh else? Barbara from your side. Okay. All right, so is anybody in the audience who'd like to ask questions or speak?
We do have some folks that have signed up to speak. I can call them um Beverly Leonard is the per first person.
Okay. Beverly Leonard.
Then after Beverly we have Jim Labrato.
All right, you're Beverly Leonard?
My main concern is the fact that
we're in building
and buildings.
Ma'am and there are Hold on a minute. Before you start, I just need to get your name on the recording. So for her purposes in your address, and you've been sworn in. Have you been sworn? Right. Okay. So if you just give us your name and address and then you can go.
Beverly Leonard, and I'm at 5900 correct. arena trace.
Thank you very much. Okay.
So my main concern about all this is the fact that as of today I found out there's three elementary schools you can't even get into right in our area. So you keep building all these apartments, but there's no place for the kids to go to school unless you're going to expand the schools. On top of that, you're just adding more and more traffic on the 54 that all of us have to deal with as we pull out. And the other thing is I don't know whether you realize or
not, but people from Brookside have to come across and do a U-turn to go back Uh Westbound. So you add all these people that are coming into these conducts, 163 um units, that's a lot more traffic added on to Caroline Drive out to 54. So that's my main complaint is the fact that these schools are getting packed. So um I mean I I take
a child to school to middle school and he can't even get into Cyprus High School because it's already frozen. Yeah. And um, you know, it just can't keep happening on on Bruce V Downs, my gosh, you're building more next to the Wells Fargo Bank.
It's just not right to the kids because they deserve a good education.
So Richard, do you want to speak to that?
I was just looking up the boundary. I was looking also up the um hundred and sixty two dwelling units with generate about thirteen elementary schools, six middle schools and eight high schoolers. And I I believe he's uh that would be I'm not I'll have to check the zoning, school zoning, but it looks like to me it would be Wesley Chapel High School, Weightman Middle School, and probably Wesley Chapel Elementary.
And those three schools I believe are all full.
They are they're yeah, they're I'd have to double check that, but as far as the Cypress Creek that would be a that's a school choice thing and if the school's at ninety percent or more then it's frozen. So
even so Oh that's frozen too because of all the development okay.
We freeze the school site ninety percent in capacity, so it may or may not be over capacity. But that's in a school choice where if you don't live in the school boundary you have to try to choose in. Um
As far as the boundaries we've got.
Thinking of the road, Curley Road, there's a um Kirkland Ranch Academy of Innovation. We're building a K eight there. And that's gonna open in tw uh twenty twenty-four. So we know that development's coming in. This is a small development, not generating a lot of kids.
No but it just adds on to all the other ones are already
in. Yeah. We do have schools in the area. We are building no s new schools in the area, so that would help with with the relief.
Well hell, yep.
Uh Mr. Tanello represents the school board, so he'd be the person that would know how it would affect schools. And we appreciate your concern now. Thank you for coming up. Who's next?
Jim Labrato is next.
Good afternoon. Jim Labrato, [address removed]. Uh several concerns. uh just getting on and off of Route 54. Currently when you try to get onto my street, Caroline Drive, it's problematic right now today. to get off of Caroline Drive on to 54 is problematic today. So that's my concern there. Uh at some point in time there's gonna be an addition to the left turn lane going
on to Caroline Drive, whose expense will that be, the taxpayer or the developer? Uh
Caroline Drive. They this development's gonna have to be connected to a public sanitary sewer system. How will that be routed? And whose cost will be you know paying for that? Will it be the taxpayers or the developer? The road they've just spoke to pardon me, they just spoke to that they're going to uh assume the cost of repaving Caroline Drive. Uh my question next question are curbs and sidewalks. Will the developer also be putting those in? to uh county
codes. Um
The last thing is this development not fitting in with the neighborhood. Citrus Trace and Saddle Ridge are all homes on larger properties. By today's standards, they're substantial properties. I'm personally on 0.78 of an acre. Most of my neighbors around me are on larger lots. I believe the smallest one in Citrus Trace is a half acre. Uh so I just don't see it fitting in with the neighborhood. The uh traffic count How
do you multiply that out? There was a chart up and I didn't quite understand it. I see 162 townhouses going in, so you have to multiply that by something. How many cars per day are going to go in front of my house? Uh is it three, four times? If it's four times, it's six hundred and fifty cars a day driving in front of me. And it just seems over overdone. You know, it was zoned for uh what was it, six houses per acre now.
You know, that you know, that was perfect. There was a reason why it was zoned that in the beginning, and it should stay that way. Um
This is second time I've come before you guys to watch what's going on and it's quite impressive what you guys have to do and I probably a thankless job, but Thank you. Okay.
I think
any questions for me or
I just wanted to point out
I think you said the property was owned for six units per acre. I think the proposals actually to reduce the density from that what was allowed. I think she said it was four units per gross acre and five point something units per net acre, so that's like a reduction.
I I agree with what you're saying. You're correct. I think the quality of the residence if it were your single family homes. You know, it's a single family home community on bigger lots, if they were you know Homes, not town homes.
Just the quality of the neighborhood.
What would make you think that there's a lesser quality in an attached product versus a detached product?
Just experience in life. When you go out and look around.
You know, after sixty eight years I've seen a lot of things.
Again, thank you, gentlemen.
Thank you very much. And I can't believe you're sixty-eight. You look much better than
All right. Who's next, Denise?
Next person is Mike Seaton.
Yeah.
I don't even know if I'm gonna show you these pictures or not, but uh because a lot of this has already been gone over, but I would like for you to take a look at what Caroline. If you'd
like to share 'em we'd be happy to s receive and file 'em if you want to.
Well I'll
pass 'em
around. I would like to show 'em.
Okay, do we have the apparatus working there that you could show 'em? Name and
address. Yeah, I can do it for name and address. What what he's gonna show you is what the situation is with Caroline Drive today.
Okay, before you start though, we need your name and address. I'm sorry.
Mike Seton uh [address removed].
Okay, and you've been sworn.
I'm sorry, I am sworn. Yes.
Yeah, thank you for changing that view. Getting a little C Sig.
Thank you.
All right.
Alright, you can begin whenever you want.
These these streets have been like this and getting worse since two thousand and eight when the last time this this
Is this Caroline Drive?
Caroline Drive, yes. Since the last time that this area was uh slighted to be developed.
It hasn't done anything but gotten worse as you can see in these pictures. It's it's nothing more than one big pothole. They they come out like maybe every, I don't know, two or three months, slap on some cold some what they call a cold patch, and two weeks later the stuff's peeling off. So yeah, it it would be good to have a situation where we got this repaved. And and hopefully the asphalt on that street is about that thick because when when those things start
peeling up you see you see the thickness of the asphalt and then you see nothing but that white rock below it. So we don't have a sufficient surface there. Now.
Well they have y you know when they pave that it's gonna have to be done to county standards like a regular county road. Oh I understand. Okay. So it'll it'll be done properly.
Right, and and I understand that the the the residents are gonna pick up the the the tab on it. No
no no the developer. The
developer no I'm talking about isn't and and I I may stand corrected here, but my understanding is is the residents will will pay for the portion of the property that's in front of their house to maintain it. going forward.
Sir if this is a county road, if this is a county maintained road, the county will maintain it. What the applicant is offered to do is repave it to county standards, but it would still be county maintenance when they're done.
But you won't pay her you're
you're
not gonna
be able to do that. You may be thinking of our paving assessment program and I don't know if this if your neighbors ever petitioned the county to pave this road. Did you?
I I don't live on the road. I'm ac I actually live in Saddle Ridge Strait. I'm sorry, Saddle
Ridge State. H maybe someone your neighbors knows whether you all ever petitioned to have this county pave this road.
That's okay. We can't take m take
it.
But we can't listen to the right-of-way.
But your stat your state the statement would be true if the neighbors had petitioned the county to pave the road, they would be paying for a portion of the that paving cost. Right. But that didn't happen obviously 'cause it's of the condition that it's in. But the applicants offered to pay the two county standards which actually effectively saves the residents money from having to pay for themselves. Okay. But the maintenance will always be it's county maintenance now, it'll be county
maintenance when they're done paving it.
So it won't cost you anything. So
other than the general taxes that everybody pays, but I mean but There's not going to be any special assessment on the neighbors for this road if the applicant is paying for.
Okay, okay. Well that's that's probably an assading.
That's why I exclaimed when Steve Henry said that.
That you're paving the road because That's actually saving the residents the cost of having to help pave it.
Right. I mean I I'm assuming that what's happening to the road right now is just simply a patchwork job that the county is doing.
And your statement that the county will come fill potholes and do the bare maintenance that's required. A resurfacing under current county procedures would require a pavement assessment. Right. And that's usually the neighbors help pay for.
Okay. Now, let's talk about traffic on that road. You have Citrus Trace 2 and 3, Saddle Ridge Estates, and the gentleman that was just up here was pretty close. He said there was about 650 vehicles. I say that's an understatement. I think it's it's under. Is underrepresented completely. And I can say that about Saddle Ridge Estates because I'm very familiar with the traffic pattern going and coming
from Saddle Ridge Estates. And they have to use that road in order to get in and out, just just like the folks in Citrus Trace. And I can say without a doubt that it's way understated. Now Right now there's there's 102 lots in Citrus Trace. There's about 47 lots. So for the sake of argument, let's say there's 150 lots between Saddle Ridge and Citrus Trace. And we're
talking about adding 162. We're more than doubling the traffic on that road. Because that's it. That's that's the only way that they're gonna come and go. Is the standards today. So that's the real problem.
Uh they'll speak to that when they come back up to explain it. So I'm sorry. When they come back up to answer these questions, they'll explain your questions.
A as far as far as that traffic.
As far as their w how they arrived at the traffic count.
Well I you know Okay.
Okay.
All right. Thank you very much. Any other questions? Can
we held your pictures for some discussion later? Yeah, I I would like to I would like to uh I would like to keep those on the on the record.
Well, see you're willing to give them to the Planning Commission to keep? Yes. Okay.
I I have copies of them.
Okay, do I have a motion then?
Move to receive and file. Second.
All in favor? I
Oh. Hey,
thank you. Thank you for your time. Thank you.
Next person is Jim Fernella.
Good afternoon. My name is Jim Fernella, [address removed]. I'm the president of the Wesley Villages, the Wesley Chapel Home Association. At this time we have the same concerns as a lot of the other people do, and that infrastructure. The infrastructure is not there to support 162. home condos in that area. You'll look that area's world is surrounded by farms.
Some of them are single family lots that are huge and they're single family houses. True, 162 homes, you multiply that by a minimum two cars per house. That's a lot of cars going in and out. Our subdivision is on the west side of Tupper Road. Young ladies stated at Tupper Road can be used for emergency access only. I don't believe that. Because that property has a gate up there at the end of Tupper Road where it makes a lot
of Left to go west, that property is on the right hand side. Eventually they're going to want to use that Tuffle Road. And eventually that's going to affect us majorly in that because on the west side of Tupper Road, up and down Tuffle Road's a dirt road, on the west side of it is some farms, and it's uh wetlands. And right there at the corner of Tupper Road in 54, that's a major wetland right there. Eventually
it's going to end up. You know, you're going to have traffic moving, you're going to have buildings going this way. Right now there's farms. You go out there and it's farms, ranches, horses. It doesn't fit. And if for some reason, you know, they want to pop a big subdivision right there in the middle of a rural area. But it's the biggest thing is the infrastructure. And my colleagues that are here with me today, they also mentioned the possibility of bringing more crime into the area. Right
now we're kind of quiet. We cross our fingers every day that we're not going to have like the west side of Pasco County. And it's getting worse. Yeah. So basically that's what we're worried about, gentlemen. Uh infrastructure. The infrastructure's not
there. What heat how time are you concerned about moving into
Well it's it's moving just like it you know it's anywhere else where you got a lot of people moving into you're gonna have crime a little bit of crime life. Cars getting broken into right now we're yeah we're okay but you know never know. And right now the sheriff's right-of-way.
No, it
would be no sir. No sir, I'm not. It's just the nature of building you're gonna have Crun and the sheriff's department's already thin that. So there's no intersect. There's no crime at all. You know, it's just the nature of it.
Can I have a question? Sure. Absolutely. What when you you throwing out the term infrastructure, but what do you mean by that other than Car Caroline Drive? What infrastructure are you saying that's like
Tupper Road. Tupper Road leads up, comes off of fifty-four, goes straight up into rural area, right at
the Planning Commissioner Wepper Road 'cause we had an application come in on Tupper Road, so you don't need to add Educate them on the condition of Tupper Road, but The access they're proposing to Tupper Road is an emergency access. That means the only time it would ever be used is for emergency vehicles.
Well, sir, for for now. But in the future, Tupper Roads But there wrote there and Yeah
how you know things change. So y let me ask you the question in the reverse. If Tupper Road were paved to county standards, you wouldn't have an issue without being a full access?
Yeah, we have full access. We did it years ago when they were going to build a hospital right there.
So your your concern on Tupper Road is that it's dirt? Dirt
road.
If it was paved you wouldn't have a concern about a connection.
Right. You'd still be concerned because of all the traffic. You're gonna have traffic no matter whether you're on Caroline or in the future tough a road. And uh you know eventually Let me put it this way, eventually it's all going to be paid over. We're going to end up like Tampa, Orlando, Miami. That's what we don't want. This is world. You got farms of cows and horses back there in the back of us.
Sir, I wasn't trying to have you restate your arguments. I was asking you a very specific question about the infrastructure. So the concern on infrastructure was Tupper Road, that's your main concern.
Tupper Road is a rural road, it's dirt road. Okay. It's only about twenty-four, maybe twenty-four feet long here. And all that and then on the west side of Tupper Road is wet land and farms and woods.
Okay. You've answered my question. Thank you. All right, any other questions?
If not, thank you very much for your time.
Kathy Shram.
Oh
Hi, my name is Kathy Shram. I'm a 34-year resident of [address removed] in Wesley Chapel and I have been sworn. Um I'm here today to present two petitions to you. One from the Wonderful Citizens of Sisters Trace. There are 127 signatures on this. The other from the Wonderful Citizens of Saddle Ridge Estates. And there are eighty-one signatures on this. I also would like to mention a couple things that
they've talked about. You talk about the developer paving. Caroline Drive. Well when Saddle Ridge was being built The developer Charlie Badcock back then promised to pave Caroline Drive to a type two standard, whatever that is. And as you can see in the photos, that was never done. We're really wary about pro promises from builders. We want it done, completed, everything, before
a shovel has ever been turned for whatever development is there. I also want to remind you that Tupper Road. For the emergency access is a private road on that corner. Um that person may or may not allow people on his property. and Tupper Road does flood. Buses do not choose not to go down Tupper Road anymore. They go back to Caroline Drive. And so if a bus can't go down canon
ambulance. Thank you very much.
Thank you. Do you want to return those in? Yes. Okay, so if we have a motion please. So moved.
Second.
Can we have a second? All in favor?
Mr. Chair, just to be clear, because we discussed this in connection with a prior application, Tupper Road is not a private road. It's a county maintained roadway and it's owned by the county. Right. We talked about that before. But there seems to be this m misperception in the public the Tupper Road is I think maybe 'cause there's a gentleman that paid part of it on his own. But it is a county maintained, county owned roadbook. Right. That was established.
Next person is John Strasser.
I live at uh [address removed] right at the corner. Uh noticed a lot of extra traffic. We're gonna have uh approximately from Citrus Trace One or Citrus Trace 2. Let me just hold you out one second.
Pardon me? You you you didn't state your name, is it John Strasser? John Strasser. Yeah we did seven The reason is we need to rec record it for the secretary over there. So she because you She has to type it up later and if she can't hear you she can't t type it up. So appreciate it. You you were clear to me, but you may not be clear to the recording. Okay, okay,
good. Uh I live in Citrus Straits two. Citrus Straits III is behind me, and we have several subdivisions back there. According to our calculations, it would be approximately uh a traffic pattern of about eight hundred extra cars coming down Caroline Drive, right? Now it's poorly maintained, poorly conditioned by the county, as you can see on some of the other photographs. With the uh with the addition of the uh additional
people there, it's gonna be quite uh a lot of traffic in there. We have no uh exits uh from Brooksides over there. They come over, do a turnaround on Caroline Drive, causes a lot of issues, a lot of traffic accidents in that area. Uh tougher road. As you say, it's a county road poorly maintained. It's a dirt road. Caroline Drive is poorly maintained.
Right now we have water going up Caroline Drive to the back. There are no sewer lines in that area. Everybody's on well except in the back they're on sewer or on water. In the front they're on well and some public. One of the extra ways to get into Caroline or into the subdivision would be through Cooper Road on the north side. You had
the map up. If uh if that were to come in across on uh on uh that road, they could uh access uh over to uh the excess on that road uh and get out of it rather than using Caroline Drive. So if that's an option, uh maybe that should be looked at on the north side and uh eliminate the traffic on uh Caroline.
Any questions?
Uh we just she just put the m map up. I'm trying to see what road you're talking about.
Pardon me?
I
think
it's
Cooper Road that goes to east west. And so I d from looking at the map it doesn't look like they have a they own up to Cooper Road. Pardon me? It doesn't look like the applicant owns the property between The applicant's property in Cooper Road. We can ask
the applic. The property is on the north side there. Cooper Road comes in on the north side of the parts of the
Are you saying this property touches Cooper Road?
Uh where are we at then? No. See where Cooper Road is? It comes across and I'm not sure.
I I see Cooper Road on but I don't see where the subject site touches it.
But uh they can extend Cooper Road over into the subdivision there.
On somebody else's property?
Sure, why not? You guys take property all the time.
Well, just to be clear, uh the county's not gonna condemn that person's property for a private development.
Well well they could access that, they could uh uh acquire. Okay, but
if you're asking the county to condemn that person's property so they can build a connection to Cooper Road, that's not happening. Well
How they're how are they gonna get any uh sewer lines? Are you gonna come up uh Carolina?
We can ask the applicant to address how they're getting water and sewer, but Pardon me? We can ask the applicant how they're intending to address water and sewer, but I don't want you to be under some perception that the county's gonna condemn somebody's property so they can have a connection to Cooper Road.
Well, the subdivision could buy it and then develop it.
That would be
very difficult for us to condition them.
Yeah.
Buying somebody's property that they don't own.
I mean it's a possibility.
I guess anything's possible.
All right. Anything else? I don't know. No any questions? Thank you very much. Appreciate it.
The last person that ha have signed up is Jessica Vitalo.
Good afternoon, Jessica Vitalo, 29329-Downy Place in Citrus Trace 3, I believe, is what pops up on the social media when you tag a photo. I am a resident and I have been sworn in. Um additionally with my wonderful neighbors who are here, many of them are not speaking today, but as you can tell, this is a probably a bigger crowd than you normally get. We are very impassion very passionate about where we live, about the kind of people who live there, about the family atmosphere that we have along with the agricultural atmosphere
with horses, donkeys, goats. cows. It's a wonderful, wonderful area. I'm obviously one of the younger people here. We moved in About three years ago, purposely we'd been scouting this specific area to move into for five years. When a house became available, we begged, borrowed, and stole to get into this neighborhood because of those reasons. I would like to make a point to talk about the agriculture that will be taken away and the animals of where they will be going. Is there going
to be a study about how where these animals are going? We have wild boar, I have pictures, I also have pictures of the tortoises that inhabit that whole entire area. It is very important that that is taken into consideration. as well as one road to rule them all does not work. I think we found that in many different cases. 162 additional housing units, which means up to maybe four Cars per unit cannot handle that road. That road cannot handle
what it already has. Any questions?
Just comment. I think wild boars are considered by the state to be a nuisance species and there's no hunting season for 'em and there's no limit on them. You can shoot them on site 'cause they don't want to
I am not a gun owner, sir.
Oh okay, that's fair, that's good. As for gopher tortoises, it's very common in developments like this for gopher tortoises to be captured. They relocated to a gopher towards sanctuary to get them out of the way of development. And the I would love to know how
they plan on doing that.
Any other questions?
And we I guess to add on to that th they'll be required to prove that they did that. Yes,
I would
so okay.
Yeah, that's a common requirement for any development.
Excellent. Thank you.
Thank you for your concerns.
I also want to speak back to you on that list, but I'm signing it. I'm sworn in it.
Okay.
You've been sworn, you say?
Yes.
Okay, here
we are. Dwight Hopkins 29228 Tupper Row. I live beside the property. I own the 200 acres around the property. I own property in the west and the property in the north of this. And then along the entire border of the property. And there's several subjects come up and I won't review something somebody said about. I know a lot of kids, small kids of all sides, catch a bus on Caroline Ride. And sometimes
there are in the morning, their parents are there and they're trying to keep them. They'll run out and stuff, so we're real careful when we go through there. But they definitely additional. Putting redoing Caroline Drive, they needed side warnings. So those kids will have somewhere to get off the road. But my first thing I want to address is the county attorney about this tougher road thing. Here is my here is my uh survey of my
property. This is Tupper Road. And here is my property line. I own Tupper Road. I own Tupper Road here and own Tupper Road there. And last time I heard America there's due process. Nobody can take your land without due process. I just got involved on purchasing land from Evans Corporation and they had some land on it. It was on Dan Brown Hill Road. And and the county did take that. They didn't take as much as they wanted to, but
but Evans opposed them and they had to quit claim. that land to the county before it was theirs. But I've been paying taxes on this land for thirty years. Nobody, nobody's ever told me that the county owned it. Not one thing. My deed chose the land. My legal description chose the land. There's no la you go to any title cut. There's nothing, says the county owns it. This the county comes on there greats every three months and really mess it up. Don't mean to own it.
How does the ownership of the road affect this case? I you came last time your you and your neighbors when there
was
a discussion, in fact a lively debate with the Mr. Goldstein over here about ownership of the road. What I'm trying to figure out is how does that relate to this case?
Well, it relates in a big way. And it's about this whole transportation thing, you know. And Mr. Wood
was
a friend of mine. I tried to get them developed that to a lesser density. They could have made plenty of money. They want to head out of the park and build 160 homes on it. If those vision roads were through there, I'd say that's a darn good idea. They're not, they're not going to be there for a long time, if ever. But here's how tougher road comes into it. first in that emergency action to come and go. I would gladly give that to County. But somebody ought to ask me, you know, I mean say, hey, can we come out and put an emergency action on
your property before you get up here in a public meeting and say you're gonna do that. Here's a bad thing. When people come out of this new development, they're gonna have a hard time going down to Carolina and getting in fifty four. So the first east west road they hit is Downey. And that goes over Tupper. And they're they're by the hundreds they're going to reroute Downey down Tupper so they can make a ride in Tupper. I've seen it happen before. So not only will they be using Caroline Drive, but they'll
be using Tupper in a big way. And and it has not been paid there. I paid the part Because the county had graded it. They had actually graded down that they had graded down so far they hit the some of the utilities. The water would just run down the roads. So I paid part of it, I told you last time they fixed it. Everybody's real happy about it. But and I the county didn't have to pay a penny. And they knew I did it, they didn't say nothing. They owned the road, they should have said something. Come around and drove around. Nobody said it mean me. Anyway, fine.
But they will be driving on tough roads with us, I promise you. Guarantee, you can't stop. I mean, we let people from Citrus drive through their country. We drive through Citrus Trace. And you know it's quid pro quota. And so Sir,
do you have a pen? Do you have a pen on you? I want to give you the statutory reference. It
says we own
it.
Well
you said that you said that nobody's ever told you why we own the road, I wanna tell you. It's section ninety five point three six one Florida statutes.
Well that's y you know that's quoting a section is one thing, but when you get in a court and from a jury and y you get you get start splitting hairs. What's maintaining the road? Just because you run a grader down there once every three months, that's not maintaining that road. I mow it, I've mowed it for 20 years. I grade that road. Uh I do everything. I get people swear under oath that I do it because it's
So you're saying that all the neighbors that that you're telling me that all the neighbors that use Tupper Road, all of your neighbors are trespassing? Is that what you're saying?
No, I don't care. I don't mind. I just don't want a hundred more cars on Tupper Road unless they want to fix it. Like you said, let them have a lot of it.
Well if you're taking the position that you own it, which I don't agree with, that would mean that all that your neighbors are trespassing.
Well, no, because there's an easement going through there. And people have a right to drive through that easement to or to benefit. I uh the people to the west of me on on Tupper and it's an easy eagress easement. It's been there all the time. So I can't stop them. I I wouldn't want to stop them, but I just don't want 100 more carts in every day.
Sir you're not an attorney, I don't want to debate with you. I'm just telling you the statutory reference you should look at. Ninety five point three six one Florida statutes. You can your attorney can make whatever arguments he wants to make. I'm just telling you that
the
reason the county
owns the rubber.
Well that wouldn't be enough in the anyway, because they don't maintain but twenty feet. That's all they maintain.
I'm
sure our road and bridge department can tell you exactly what they maintain on that road.
Well anyway. But don't think they won't be using tougher roads than they will. Yeah, and and the other thing that everybody else will point out is if Caroline just her right turn in one way out, it is dangerous, dangerous, dangerous to turn around. There's three lanes coming out of it. And you can have cars in two inside lanes, but you've got plenty of room to turn around, turn, and then you start to make a turn, and some of that veer out of that into one
of those inside lanes over to the outside, just about run over here. There's gonna be some bad wrecks there. It's just it's just not up to 160 to more housing. That's that's my point. That's all I got to say. Thank you.
All right. Thank you for coming again. Good to see ya.
I think the answer to your question is really has no bearing on this particular application. Yeah,
so I was trying
to think about the relevance. But I think he just heard he he just concerned because
he arguably does because they are showing an emergency connection to Tupper Road. So they would not be able to show an emergency connection to a private roadway without permission, but it's not a private roadway.
Is that because of the the right of prescription? Is that what
there's a statute that says if we maintain it for four years we own it. Does it matter what a deed says, doesn't matter what easement there are Anybody that wants to look at section ninety five point three six one foreign statutes can do it, but it's also important not just for this County this gentleman. All those re like I said, all of those neighbors would be effectively trespassing. If we the county doesn't own the road. Is he requ are they
requiring to have an emergency access? I mean they could do like a boulevard entrance that allows
you to task if it's blocked.
I've seen
that before.
There is a there are other ways you can get emergency access that is a true statement, but Um I don't wanna It's better when an emergency access in my opinion is to a different road than the primary. Because if there's an accident on a fifty four, that's not gonna help to have a a boulevard. But a connection on Tupper Road does actually help you?
Right. What I'm asking is it a requirement of this development? If let's just say the gentleman is successful in court and Tupper Road's deemed to be a private road and they can't build an emergency access to it, does that stop them from doing this project?
Not necessarily. Okay. They had up to meet whatever the code requires for burnt their actions. There may be other ways we can get things out of the park? I'm getting is that's not a condition of approval that we are looking to consider today. I believe they're just gonna meet whatever our code requires as related to emergency access. It's not part of the deed restriction. It the only thing that's missing is that since they are showing an emergency access to Jumper Road, I think staff needs to at least note in their agenda that that's their proposed emergency
access, but it doesn't mean that it's the
code. Well, they were nice enough to show us a conceptual plan. This is a Euclidean zoning here and there.
I agree, but if they're telling us that their emergency access is to Tupper, I think at least it needs to be disclosed that I'm not saying it's a condition, I'm saying I'm just saying we typically in our agenda memor say how they're accessing their property. If one of their potential accesses is an emergency access to Tupper Road, I think at least it needs to be set.
Yeah, I think that's good. We need to know that.
So um
Harbor, do you have I think we're done with comments from the audience. L listen, uh I'm gonna ask one more time for comments from the audience. If you know, we can't sit here all day and then somebody jump up. So if you wanna speak, come on up front here and get in a seat and let's let's hear you w what you got to say. I don't wanna leave anybody out, but I don't also don't wanna Just drag this on w unnecessarily.
Okay, my name is Margaret Velasco and I live at [address removed] in Wesley Chapel in the Saddle Ridge Estates. Um, I'm just one of those people with the horses and I only have two questions for the developer. I mean I brought a copy of Town Homes and I had a question is this similar to what they're gonna look like? There's six units My next question is coming down Bridleford, are they going to put a wall? around that whole
development that they're doing down the 300 acres that back up to me and I have five acres. Now that the property in question stops at my mailbox. And I have a hundred foot driveway that takes me into my house. But there would need to be a wall to block off from the 300 acres and then people from coming into our gated community.
Can you see the map again so she can point it out where she lives?
Yeah, I'm curious about the three hundred acres.
That's right next to me which backs up to where
you are. I'm
not good at maps. At the end of Bradleford. But the northeast corner of the property.
Right at the top?
I'm at the back of Brighton. There it is. All the way to the back there. Right.
Right there.
Right there. There you go. I'm already delayed. Right
there.
And you see the property in question is that square there and that's three hundred or so acres that goes down Tupper and and uh uh Mr. Shepherd used to own that and he has since passed away, cows there and everything. So that backs up to me. But are they going to put some kind of barrier down Bridalford across there? And and all those houses in Citrus Trace over there. They're all just bobwire. Everything's just bob wire right now. Except for half a
wall in in our subdivision. Okay. And that's my question. We'll
get that answered for you. Okay, thank you. Thank you. And was there anybody else? I know we've got one more. Anyone else?
You saved your best to last.
I'm Barbara Martin. I've been sworn in, and my address is [address removed]. I'm on the corner of Caroline Drive and Laughridge Place. Um I have one question about the Tupper Road and the emergency exit is that in my mind I'm thinking if you have an emergency exit and it's available to Yeah. What keeps it from not being an emergency exit and people using it as a convenient
way to get to fifty four?
I
think they said it was gonna be gated.
It's not gated.
No no no that when they construct the development it would be gated and I think it's intended for the fire department or EMS to have emergency ingress into the development. If they need you know if the main road is blocked, they need a way to get a fire truck in the back side of this thing and that's how they would do it.
But ma'am, I just to address your concern, I was going to ask the applicant when they got up during rebuttal if they'd be okay adding a something to their deed restriction that said that any access to Tupper Road would be for emergency only engaged. I think that's their intent, it's just it's not Technically in the deed restrictions. And so I suspect they're gonna say yes to that when I ask that question, but I we I do intend to address that comment with the applicant.
Thank you. Um
It being a emergency use, does that mean if it's a county road they will pave it appropriately from where they need it all the way to fifty four, so that you won't have that flooding and that uh dust that flies up from the dirt road and the potholes that were there. So
ma'am, typically county staff would not make somebody repave a road if it's only used for emergencies 'cause th th the use is too infrequent to justify that expense. I mean you're talking probably Once every five years an ambulance or police department would need to use the the gate. That's not frequent enough to justify paving the road.
Okay, well the the point that was made earlier is I have a hard time picturing a fire truck coming up that road because it's so narrow and it's so bumpy.
You'd be surprised what our fire trucks can do, yeah. I'm
sorry.
You said you would be surprised what our fire trucks can do. They probably have driven down roads much worse than Tupper Road.
All right, they're talented. Um the next question, the real concern that I have is speeding. I live right there on Caroline Drive and cars go so fast up and down the road. Um a neighbor would try to get out there if she ever saw one going fast she'd say, hi, to remind them that they're speeding, but it doesn't work. We've had signs put up, um, slow down, children at play. I had
one on my property and it got destroyed. Um I had a car. Uh I didn't see it happen, but I saw the results. come off the road, knock over one of my trees and into my wooden fence. uh because I figure speed. I don't know why else a car might have done that. So um I'm very concerned about the speeding and the fact that children
ride bikes, children skateboard, we have baby carriages for taking walks up and down that street. And There's no line in the middle of the street because actually there's just enough room for two cars to pass. You don't have an extra place to move. So when I'm walking on the side of the street or there's somebody jogging, the cars have to move over to the other side of the road to make sure everybody's safe. And uh if there are no sidewalks and no curbs
put in, then there's gonna be a real big hazard. I uh school buses stop there, children run across the road to get into the school bus. We wait at our door, we see the school bus as it comes up, then we let the children out of our doors to get to the bus. We're always standing there, always waiting for the bus when it comes in, just to make sure they are safe. Um Also, pets. I have a pet who's blind and I watch her very carefully, but sometimes she gets out of She
likes to go toward the road every now and then and I'm always pulling her back in. So when I go over to the side of the road to pull her back in, I'll have a car whiz right past me. So I'm really concerned about the speed on that road. I know in the past I've called the county to ask if there was some way that something they could do about that. I was told there wasn't enough manpower to do anything. Um I don't know how to get speed bumps and humps and that type of thing in, but I would not be uh
against that type of thing to help control the traffic, the speed of the traffic.
You must have read what's mine because I was gonna ask you that question.
Well I've tried, but I d I don't I'm I'm just a little grandma.
We appreciate you coming. You're we're well well over your time, but I wanted to make sure you had plenty of time to speak. So thank you very much.
Thank you.
I guess you weren't last.
Yeah, swear swear in.
Yeah have you been sworn?
My name is Bob Peller and I'm a thirty-one, thirty-two year resident of uh Citrus Trace.
What's your address, sir?
I'm sorry, [address removed].
And you've been sworn?
Yeah. Okay. Um some of the skepticism the people from Citrus Trace are are feeling as we step back in time a little bit is the bull that they were fed that the uh guy that puts out saddle ridge estate was going to take care of upgrading the road, which never got done. Also, somewhere along the line, we used to have signs out front that said citrus trays and saddle ridge estates. Those are no longer there. Somebody
got paid off to not put them back. But, you know, somebody apparently got money for not putting those signs back, but none of the residents were ever told who got the money and why those signs were never put back. Okay? That's one thing. But to to ask the residents of Citrus Trace to put 162 townhouses in the back of that is ludicrous idea. Of which David Goldstein
probably doesn't think that's uh uh out of line. You don't need to re but it
you don't need to refer to Mr. Goldstein.
It is truly out of line to even consider such a catastrophe to the area.
Well, you know what, sir? There's a lot of people that would consider that when you went there, the fact that you moved there was out of line. So don't be so self-righteous. There are a lot of people that have been here a lot longer than you. I I'm not sure. So don't start disputing that stuff. Don't start talking down to David here or anybody else on this board. We're here to try to help the citizens. We're sitting here listening to your argument. Just think about and don't don't get up there and start trying to bully people. It's not gonna happen.
You're gonna ask me to leave? Okay. I will if
you get out of line. Darn right I will.
I'm stating the truth, okay? We were fed a bunch of baloney about all the stuff that went on already, and somebody from the Pasco County Department of whatever wasn't watching anything.
Well are you were you what were you watching
if and when
What were you watching?
Do
you have no responsibility at all?
If in Wayne Is that
what you're telling us?
Yeah, I yeah, okay. Put it back on me. If in Wayne you allowed the 162 townhouses to be put in, That road should be Dicks from day one will notify guys come in. They should do the improvements to the road.
We've already talked about
it. Okay, I'm just making sure on my part. See I'm hearing impai impaired. I probably didn't hear it. Okay, coming down from Zephyrhills. Going west, there should also be a turn lane put in for Citrus Trace and Saddle Ridge and whatever they're gonna call this this uh townhouse subdivision. Okay. And no nobody's mentioned that. Already we
can't get in and out of the street.
Somebody's already asked that question and I hopefully get an answer.
Do you have any idea what they installed at the end of the street to count?
Sorry your time is up, sir.
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry if I came off a little brash, but you know, I've listened to
it just doesn't help when you do that. You know, we're not trying to be rude to each other. Let's be be civil if you have a concern. We want to hear about it.
The the bottom line is, you know, if people would put themselves in in the place of the residents of Citrus Trace and what they're trying to do. and use a road that's barely okay for the s the residents there now. I mean you somebody has to show how they're gonna handle that, rather than just uh put it before the board.
So
He's your fr he's your friend.
Yes, ma'am.
My name is Teresa Baylesheimer and I live at [address removed] in Saddlebridge Estates.
And
you've been sworn? Yes, I was here when that happened. I didn't plan on speaking today, but I think that's something that has not been addressed. One, I have a question is whether or not this community is going to be gated or not gated. I guess we can find that up from them. When we come out of I have to drive down Caroline Drive every day. Um to go out and to go west on 54 because I go to work in town. Um it's a problem to get out because I don't know if you guys have been out there
or not, but 54 is 65 miles an hour and you better get going or you're gonna get run over. Um so we go out that way. Coming back home If if if I go out and turn right and I want to go towards Zephyrhills, I have to get in the far left lane, stop at the light at Saddlebrook, make a U-turn to go that way. So you're gonna have another hundred and sixty two homes if they want to go. east they have to go that
way.
Um also coming home from work at night, we had back in the day we had some people in our community fight for us to have a what do you call egress lane or whatever put in on the left hand side to be able to turn into our neighborhood. If you're gonna add 162 more homes to that drive you're going to have to we're gonna Look like 56. We're gonna our butts are gonna be out on 54, stacked up, trying to turn left onto Caroline Drive. That I think
needs to be addressed before they decide to put 162 homes in them. That is a tr that's a safety traffic issue. Um And I have one other topic talk about.
I can't remember. But those are my con the traffic is my concern. Okay. Not only oh, Caroline Drive. They're gonna pay Caroline Drive, that's beautiful. They're gonna put curbs on Caroline Drive, that's beautiful. They're gonna put sidewalks. There's easement on this on their property, so the the sidewalks are going on their easement, question mark.
We'll get those answered for
you. That's all I have. Thank you very
much. Okay.
Oh the script I've got.
Five dollars for the script. Me and Copa.
Do as I say, how does that
Denise, do we have anybody on WebEx for this item?
We don't have anyone on WebEx for this item or for any of the items on today's agenda. The folks who are on WebEx are staff members. Thank you.
Okay. So if we've had everybody speak Oh, sorry.
What did the pay at the door?
Steve, I'm in a meeting. Call me back.
Sorry about
that. I guess Clark's not the only one getting fined.
Wait till his pager goes off.
I will have Steve Henry address traffic um and some of the things that you've heard in a moment. I think the school board um member Mr. Tanella went through with regard to schools and I know that the school board knows about all the development that you're doing. They review, they sit here on this planning commission. We also, they know every home when plans come in, they have a review process. They know about every home that comes in before it's constructed and they're planning for those things. Um We have a very good school board. The
uh water and sewer the developer pays for water and sewer. It'll be county water and sewer. The water, sewer and reclaim water are all at the property. Mm-hmm.
It's already at the property, you said.
Homes versus townhomes, we talk about that a lot. I have heard a lot in my 25 years doing this. They're homes. They're just attached versus detached. And there's benefits to townhomes. One is that this the pool area is centralized. Single family homes we have pools in our backyard and these pools can be five feet from the property line. It's a benefit of townhomes. The other thing I always say about townhomes or for single family are townhomes are commonly maintained. So if you live in a town home, you pay your
HOA to maintain your roof. your paint, your shrubs, your your grass, and the landscaping and common areas. In a single family subdivision, single family detached homes, you pay your homeowners association to chase your neighbor to try to get them to comply. So that is a benefit when you talk about a town home and attached product versus a single family product.
Excuse me for a minute. Can we could we put that uh View of the development of the easement.
Thank you.
Just making sure I address everybody that spoke.
I think the Tupper Road and emergency access has been talked about quite a bit. Yes, I'm agreeable our my clients agreeable to the deed restriction discussed, which would say that along the lines of access to Tupper Road will be emergency access only and gated um for no resident access. And we can certainly work out that language with the county attorney's office and staff.
So Barbara, can I ask a question about that? 'Cause I I know I asked the question earlier, but I have a question for you and the Planning Commission 'cause I somewhat torn on the issue.
I understand why it's emergency access because it's a dirt road and it's makes sense. I guess my question is Can you put the if you could put the vision network, road network back up?
And I'm not expressing any opinion whatsoever on this. I'm just asking a question for you. And the Planning Commission, which is At some point that vision road is going to connect all the way up to the new overpass road and then eventually the overpass interchange. And so I gotta imagine at some point in the future that road will exist and Tupper Road will exist As a paved road. And I guess the question is at that point should it become another way
out for this project. I mean I understand d don't get me wrong, I understand why it's emergency today. But the question is, should it always be emergency?
Certainly could write some kind of standard language into the deed restriction that o provides for that in the future so that the deed restriction wouldn't preclude that from happening when it's a
I mean 'cause the residents have raised some legitimate concerns about all the traffic dumping on fifty four. And we can let Steve Henry address that issue. But the county's plans for this area is to relieve 54. Through the new interchange at Overpass. And this Vision Road is supposed to bring traffic from 54, it's the Bruce B extension of Bruce Bowns all the way up to Overpass Road so people can access the new interchange. That's less likely to occur from your project if
In the distant future, whenever this roadway network exists, you have no ability to get over to that road up to overpass interchange.
I agree. And if we do a deed restriction that says for the forever it'll only be emergency access, we would preclude that from happening. So we could have to do that.
To County Space and this vision road actually connects to Overpass and then we It would be kind of silly to then say, Well, Paul your traffic still has to go to fifty four. When we built this great new road network to save to save fifty four. That's that's my concern. But th this isn't my decision. I mean it it's up to the Planning Commission if you what you do. I'm just throwing it out for consideration.
I think that would be good planning to make sure that we didn't preclude that in the future from happening. But I'm okay either way.
But yeah, a Planning Commission wants it to be permanently in emergency. We've that could be drafted. I just you all need to weigh in on that.
Comments?
Do you have a projected date on that particular road? 'Cause it's come up in the past. So
no. But the but you could draft the language that says that it would remain emergency until Tupper's paved and the Vision Network connects to overpass road. I mean, that may be forty, fifty years from now, I don't know. But and I understand why it should be emergency in Till then I'm not suggesting that but The point is what the county likes to plan for the future and I'm Barbara's correct that the county has a plan to save or try to re alleviate traffic
on fifty-four through this vision network. And so it doesn't I'm only pointing out that if we restricted the emergency access to Tupper based on its condition today That doesn't allow this project to take advantage of that future vision network whenever it exists. It may be 40-50 years from now, but the county just spent a lot of money building a new interchange at Overpass Road. True. And part of it was to allow other people to to relieve the 54 interchange. So it's
it's up to you all. I'm saying one might argue that it's a mistake. State to not take advantage of that of of this potential future network.
Technical question about that. in the Manual that we're gonna talk about later. There's a discussion about emergency accesses and being constructed out of geo grid and the like. Is this per is this emergency access proposed to be paved as if it were a county road, or is it proposed to be stabilized as per what's in the manual? we'll discuss later.
I'm not sure I have an answer to that 'cause we're not at construction plan level of detail.
Because that would affect what David is asking if this happens, if these vision roads or Tupper roads constructed 10 years, 20 years down the road, and we have a just a stabilized emergency access, not a paved emergency access. How then you've got a s kind of a substandard connection you're
making. Let me put it this way. I suspect if you ask Barbara whether they should be willing to restrict it to it being paid, they'd probably say yes. I mean you can't impose that 'cause it's a deed restriction, but The incremental cost if they're already paving to you know very close to the Tupperwood connection. I don't know why that's a huge incremental cost for them.
I'm not arguing it is. In fact, I told the county engineer that I thought it was more expensive to build the geo-grid pig section than it was to pave the road, but... But I just curious if there if it's going to be just a stabilized access and this happens twenty years from now, I'm not expecting this developer is going to be controlling this thing twenty years from now. He's long gone and you got an HOA. What's the impetus
to actually make that? Okay, let me put
it
this way. I expect suspect that staff, Barbara and myself could work out the exact language to address your concern. The real issue is whether you want the ability for an ac like access to Tupper Road in the event this future road name roadway network develops, whether you want it to potentially be another way out for this project. If you if you're comfortable with all their access being Caroline Drive and that just permanently an emergency connection, that's okay too. I
I'm just saying the Barbara Staff and I can draft a language to make this work. I I'm just asking you the big picture policy question. You all are the Planning Commission. You plan. Okay. You could argue that that maybe some point in the future that shouldn't be an emergency connection. That's all I'm saying. But you all needed to make that decision or the board needed to make that decision.
I think we're being short-sighted not too consider a future roadway network with the amount of infrastructure the county has planned as far as their vision roads go. Agreed.
Okay. Uh all right. Let's move on to to another concern that they have. Marvin, you have your list?
Sure.
Cooper Road isn't uh is not as you saw it was not it's not adjacent to this property, it's to the north.
Right.
But we will have an interconnection to the north because the county requires those interconnections.
Um The the property owner that uh lives in Saddlebridge talking about three hundred acres to her to her west. She lives the pro adjacent to the property north of us. We're forty acres. So I just wanted to make that, you know, that isn't mere that's not us. Um
I think her question was about the wall.
But we're not adjacent to her. She's asking about a a parcel that's not we're not the adjacent parcel to her.
Good question when that part of what she's asking on what border is your wall gonna occ occupy? North, south, east, west. I
don't think there's gonna be a wall.
Well that's what I'm asking.
Yes, we're not proposing any wall.
What is it gonna be?
Along our eastern boundary?
What kind of separation is there gonna be? What's what's is type A, type B? What what is it?
Okay. You want to add that?
So we're required to do the as we always say here, and we always stand here and say we have to do the landscape buffer to county requirements and there's already a landscape buffering, but my client said we can add to the deed restriction along our eastern boundary um a requirement for a six foot fence in addition within the the required landscape buffer if we can. So should
be free to add that.
Okay. Brad, can you tell us what buffer would be required there right now?
We walk all the way up here? Uh Brad tip and playing development. Yeah, uh typically I think uh Ms. Willheid uh maybe mentioned it earlier on, uh, but these are residential uses to residential uses, so there's really no buffering technically required. However, we do re we buffer to roadways based on what's across the street. So you have residential to residential. They're gonna put a buffer in along that area. Uh but it is not required to have a wall. It's not required Right. If they want to put that in, they can Yeah, it would be voluntary
for them to put that in. So Yeah.
All right. Well before you move on, w if you look at this and I've had experience, I'm sure others have The townhomes, I appreciate that because they're they are better than apartments. I don't mean better in the sense that they are better, they're just different. But you still have the high density residency in townhomes. And the concern I would have if I was living in one of these homes to the to the to the east, it looks like about four of them, is
that there's a tendency. With high density to have a little bit more noise in them, whether it be radio, TV, or just a company that shows up and you have a party. That's what I would look at, and I would encourage some higher density barrier between the surrounding area, because noise is in itself, excuse me, in itself can be A distraction to if you look at these homes that are around it, they're all basically larger
homes, not estate homes, but they are. larger homes who have over the years enjoyed peace and quiet. So if
I think the noise concept of trying to reduce in it should play in development there with landscaping. I think what you have done what they have done here is it's a nice looking facility in the fact that you have the water features there and that it would appear that you might even have a a sprinkling uh a fountain system in place. Um but I don't want to belabor the point. I know you have more things to but since you came up with
ordering of the area and the calming of noise from that particular project should be considered for the residents there to make it more appealing to them, especially the neighbors.
So I think I gave you a a dimension of the closest on our eastern boundary, the closest our home will be to to one of the other homes is a hundred and thirteen feet, but we'll be forty feet back from the property line. So it's a hundred and fifty three feet. Between uh existing home and one of our homes That's a that's a long way. Um the requirement in MF one is fifteen feet, so we could probably we could add to the D restriction, make it 'cause right requirements forty fifteen feet.
We can make it forty. And again, um, you know, we won't have pools in our backyard so we're not that's that's the benefit 'cause right now under the current zoning, single family homes, pools, pools five feet from the property line, noise. But that's one of the benefits of townhomes is you have a central amenity as opposed to an amenity in everybody's backyard. But we'll we'll s put into the D restriction, we'll stay forty feet off of the property line with any of our homes. And I think that that provides a significant uh difference as to what could be which
could be fifteen feet. under M F one.
Does that address Mr. Hansel?
Well, I spent a lot of time with the infantry units and I know at night and I hate to bring this up, I know at night time you could noise tends to be a little bit more uh I don't know if the word hearable is a word, but you can hear audio noises from a greater distance in the evening time, especially at night. That's all. Just and that just from practical experience spending time
Well we'll keep our homes forty feet off of the property line. We'll put a fence we'll put a fence in that's above code. I I think those should mitigate those those issues. Common amenity.
Well I think one of the biggest issues that that everybody seemed to talk about was Caroline. How it was gonna be paved, whether there were gonna be sidewalks and curbs and
I will let
What then Excel and Excel lanes and
I will let Mr. Henry talk about all those things for you. Thank
you Mr. Andrew.
Is this subversion going to be gated or not gated?
Do you know? Gated.
Thank you.
Yes, I forgot to answer that question. Thank you.
Good afternoon. Steve Henry again. Uh so to answer your question, uh one starting with the uh access to 54. So as a part of this anal part of this development of this property, we'll have to do an access management analysis, which will have to evaluate the intersection of Caroline and 54. We'll have to look at the left turn lane that's out there today to determine whether it's long enough. Today it's about 260 feet. Actually, room between that one and left turn lane for Saddlebrook Way to extend it 300 feet. So between look
and we'll have to look at the U-turns at Saddlebrook Way. So we'll have to assess both of those turn lanes to make sure they're long enough to accommodate the existing traffic plus the addition of our traffic to that. And if they're not, then we'll have to lengthen those those turn lanes. As far as the um Um the improvements to uh Caroline Drive. Uh we've actually gone actually already gone out there and done the geotech to look at that to see what's actually out there and we've we've done you know what what the as far as the additional pavement that's needed
to meet the Kerr County standards for a local road. So what is that? What is that? We'll be adding about two inches of asphalt. Okay, which is what my guess was and I asked could we save those
pictures? Yeah, we'll have
to mill,
which is not much left there.
Because what of my one of my concerns is if you overlay that street two inches, we're gonna have driveways that aren't gonna be able
to
drain
the race. Um so we we intend to do that. Um now that that and that's part of the do you have another question or we can ask
you. Yeah, I do have another question. Does the county still have a traffic calming device program? There used to be a program where you could petition. It requires votes by the by by the adjacent property. Right.
As a traffic engineer. I mean and I I hear their concerns of the residents. I and that's why I asked you earlier what was the speed limit on the road. Caroline's a straight road. Right now it's in poor condition. We're gonna pave it. I see a drag strip coming in the future. Um Is there a safety problem with putting a traffic coming, whether it be speed tables or whatever the case may be? To
to try to slow that down. That's
you know, I mean is there a safety issue? No. Uh you know, it always gets into half the people love 'em. Well half the people hate 'em and so they make
relationship with those things too.
And and so that that becomes the question is you know, you know, i if the residents want it and I I obviously I'll know the collecting to my developer who says yes, he'd be willing to entertain that's It
would would a speed cable assuage your concern about speeding down Caroline Drive? If they were to put in some traffic calming devices to make sure you couldn't use it as a drag strip? You can just show me your hands.
Yes.
I think the fancier terms now is they're more like speed tables. They're not just like a the old fashioned speed bump you had in the shopping center.
Mr. Middy, I am a little concerned about making this decision based on a showing of hands because I Mr. Henry Well they haven't shown me any hands
even if they did the they may not represent all the residents on Caroline Drive. I think Mr. Henry's correct when you put these two a vote on speed tables sometimes there's a majority that want them, sometimes there's a majority that don't. Oh so if that's your Intent, we could probably get across some some language that says that if a majority of the residents, through the normal county's normal process of determining that, Uh want the speed tables that they had agreed to pay for them. But I hate to just do
that on the fly here when we don't have all the residents all in Carolina Drive. Am I making
sense? Well I understand that, but they've expressed the concern. I'm not convinced that I like the speed table idea either. I'm trying to ferret that out. That's why I asked are there safety issues with these things too. So
Yeah, and I don't believe that
I don't know how the fire department likes those or doesn't like them. They do say that it it slows down their response time to to get in emergency vehicles. So I mean there's a there's pluses and minuses to them. Um my
sense is the bigger concern really that's beating is probably this sidewalks
and curbs. Right. And we're doing the what's required of From a from a substandard road standpoint for the roadway, which does not include sidewalks or curb and gutter. So we would not be putting in curb and gutter. Curb and gutter would be tough to do on a rural roadway, trying to put in the drainage for that being very expensive, if it would even work, we don't know if the grades would work on that road.
Correct. Yeah.
Uh
we are we are intentional. It's not not an issue. It may be not for the schools, but it could be for the residents. Because as people do use they walk their dogs and the babies and
correct, but it again it you know what we're proposing is less traffic. And also typically
Well that's that's gonna be a hard one to sell, less traffic. There's gonna be more traffic. So it my my only par point is and I'm trying to be as consider it as I can on both sides. Sure. That In you know, in order for me to feel comfortable about approving a new development It needs to bring something to the existing area that they don't have. It can't just take So if
it doesn't enhance the adjoining areas in some way, some significant way, then why put it there? It's not ready for it. So uh um Well I don't think that's what we're doing. So we try I do miss it. And that's
what I'm talking about when
I'm
talking about Mr Chair, I don't disagree with you but I do have a question for staff or Mr Henry, whoever knows. Do we have enough right-of-way on Carolina Drive to our sidewalks? 'Cause typically if it's the county maintain road, this is to my earlier point, the county owns what we maintain. So we clearly own existing Caroline Drive. We don't necessarily have right away beyond the pavement for a sidewalk, but I don't We may we may not, I don't know.
I that's why I'm asking the question.
I think it was sixty feet of right away. Yeah.
So is that sufficient to add sidewalks? I'm asking.
We do it in fifties in neighborhoods.
So then I think
it's
a good thing.
Then there is
sufficient
rate. Sorry, this doesn't have curb and gutter and what what effect that sidewalk would have on the drainage, the lawns, that type of thing would would we we don't know that at this point in time.
Well let me ask you and Barbara a question. Is there a middle ground if the county were to give bike ped mobility fee credits for the sidewalk? Would that
Since I agree it's not required by our nine oh one point four.
Try to do some calculations over here real quick. But uh Okay. It it's right-way portion. I mean it's bag bike pad portion, so that's just a portion of that fee. Well you can't do the calculation that quick, but uh Thanks.
Well I'm just one person. I they m uh they may not agree with me. But I I unless I feel that you're enhancing the area, I'm not gonna vote for it. So I'm just telling you ahead of time.
Well we are paving a road that we I mean by caves.
Well you
know,
that could be an enhancement, but it's not a great enhancement. They already have a road they can occupy. I I want something that is gonna provide some safety and, you know, quality of life issues that are gonna accompany these people that already live there. So Uh you know, we gotta l look out for our citizens, that's all I'm telling you.
But I'm following the code. And the code says that I have to prepare a prop share and we're gonna do it. You don't have to do
it. You don't have to do it.
We can't require it, I understand that, but we also don't have to approve it.
Well I'm I am following all the rules and comp plan and all the things, so I mean
If we can have a delay so we can do the calculation, which is hard for us to do that on the fly. So and my client I don't know if you have another item we can go to and then come back, let him look at it.
Yeah, we can do that. Yeah, we can do that.
I'll ask.
I think
We just take a five minute recess to give
you
a chance to calculate.
Okay. Taking a recess, five minutes.
Gotcha. I was gonna tell him he kept going. I was wanted to say, Sir, look to your right. Look to your right.
I know. Yeah. When they start that passage across.
It really irritates me when it starts pointing his finger at people.
The delay.
We can take our seats, please.
Yeah.
All right. I think we can start again.
All right, Steve Henry again. Uh so Dr. Velbert, he's willing to construct the sidewalk uh on one side of the road. Obviously not both sides, but we're willing to construct it on one side of the road.
And that's for credit against the bike fed part of the movie.
the developer's agreement and the credits awards. So but we don't want the ability at least to have if if we wanted to request but not the not the requirement.
Okay, so that would be some future deal right all the determination is going to say that you're going to do it with the possibility of maybe in the future credit doing an agreement for credits. We can get that that yeah. But you're committing to do the sidewalk whether you're
gonna need it as a sidewalk here, sidewalk. We just want the ability to request it in the future.
And you're gonna do that right up front.
Yes. We do that again. While you're paving the road basically. Correct. It will be done prior to the final the first final building inspection.
Can I ask you a question on that? If the because what I see in in the past is These big trucks come along and they're Building the houses and building everything and then does it make sense to pave the road first or after and I don't know.
After Yeah. I mean you build the road, then the tr construction starts, the trucks are coming up and down the road, ruining the road. It's it better to do that afterwards. And I don't know the answer, I'm just asking.
Typically we we would pave it the same time we paved the streets within Could be the prime. So which which would be all have to be done prior to the the uh basically the
defining. It's two inches of asphalt and that's fine for for the short time they're under construction, I would tell you that they can probably more than absorb the construction traffic at that. If we were doing a shopping center, we'd have two inches as heavy duty pavement where the delivery area is all.
Okay, good, thank you.
I would say is to follow up what Steve said is the really heavy equipment is when they're doing the site work.
Mm-hmm.
Yeah. When they get to the building, the building the the houses it's not nearly as heavy as equipment. So Mostly Batarch. And that so and he's gonna be doing all the painting of their internal roads with this too. So I think It probably should work out.
Okay. And then just for everyone's uh just recap everything that's gonna be done so they know what we know.
So we're going to pave Caroline Drive from 54 to our project to County Local Street Standards, and then we will construct sidewalk on one side of the road from 54 to our project.
And whatever turn lanes are required at Access Management
Review? Correct. And whatever extensions to the turn lanes may be necessary at fifty four and uh Caroline Draft, yes.
Okay. So you're doing you're doing all that part of the first building inspection for a building.
Okay. The next thing on my list was there's a lot of questions about traffic how you arrive at traffic counts. how how traffic affects the roadway. Um, is there some formula that you use other than just multiply the number of homes by two?
Well no, we we what we use is the Institute of Transportation Engineers. So they've done hundreds upon hundreds of studies. In fact it's now it's four volumes of of different uh trip generation studies and uses that have been done. So they've done studies on single family homes, town homes, multifamily. And so what we use here is townhome. They actually have a land use for townhomes, single family attack. Units. And we use that trip generation based on hundreds of studies that have been done to estimate what the
daily traffic is, the AM peak hour, and the PM peak hour.
What's the average
daily traffic? The average daily traffic is about seven point three. trips per home for town homes and it's about it's almost ten for single family. So single family will generate more traffic and typically that's because single family tends to have more kids and activity than a town home does.
So you we we're not it doesn't really relate directly to the number of cars that the people may own. It's the how many times they drive their car. Right. Right. So it's it's trip generation, not how many cars are there.
Correct. It what what they have done is on again hundreds of they go out and put a hose across a driveway and they count the number of cars that come in and out. Not how many cars people own within the development, but how many cars cross that hose on a daily basis during the AM and PM peak out, and that's what they use. And they and again they've broken it out into the various different types of land uses to come up with what those trip rates are for various
land uses. Fourteen hundred trips, total trips up and down up and down Caroline Drive after they're built out.
It's uh about eleven hundred additional we generally.
Eleven hundred per
For day. Okay. But again, i i if you develop it as a single family, it would be more than what than what we're proposing. So that's it. Granted it's an increase, it's definitely an increase, but I think we're hopefully we're offsetting that by paving the road and putting the sidewalk in. But it is definitely a decrease over what could be there today based on the existing zone.
Okay.
Um
What else do we have on our list?
So was the consensus of Planning Commission that the connection to Tucker be emergency only until Pepper wrote and the his page and the vision air report exists. That's right.
Yes. I was going to kind of tally up I've said a lot of things that I'm going to be doing the deed restrictions. I was gonna give you a tally.
She's shouting all the goodies and
bag. I I've
stood up here and said yes I'll agree with
that.
Yes.
Amending my voluntary deed restriction. Voluntarily. Yeah. So just to kind of tally what that is, we're gonna we're gonna pave Caroline Drive to County Standards. And this wording is not exactly right because we'll get it exactly right with staff and the County Attorney's Office. But here's the concept. We're gonna pave Caroline Drive from State Road 50 to County Standards, from State Road 52 to the project access. We're gonna do 54. Ooh, that would be a long way. Yes. 54 to the project access. We're gonna put a sidewalk on one side. Side. And
we have the timing of that. Will be those will be completed prior to the first um building inspection the final building inspection for the first unit. We're gonna have the emergency access Tupper language, Tupper Road Language, as described by Mr. Goldstein. We've agreed to a 40-foot building setback line, building setback, building line setback from the external property line that goes all the way around. I know we were talking about the eastern boundary, but that commitment is for the entire project. The six-foot solid fence surrounding
the project, we talked about it for just that eastern boundary, but the client's commitment is for the project as a whole. And we already have in the deed restriction no apartments. I just like to say that 'cause a lot of people stand up and say apartments and it's townhomes and so it's in the deed restriction already and it'll stay in there about no apartments. That's the tally of things that we're agreeing to add to the deed restriction and we would
So so Barbara, the only thing I h didn't hear you say that Steve said was that when you're doing the road you're also gonna do the intersection improvements. Uh fifty four in Carolina.
We're gonna do the access management analysis and our access management analysis will include that intersection.
I just want to make sure that those are being done the same time as you're doing Caroline on the sidewalk.
Yes.
Okay.
Yes. Any access management improvements.
Whatever comes out of the analysis you'll do the same time as you're doing the Carolina cycle. Yes. Okay.
How does the west side of Carolyn get finished? Is that curved or is that How is that gonna be finished?
No, i it it'll say like as it is or rule but
Okay. I think Mr. Henry's correct. It was very difficult to retrofit a road and put a curb and gutter. There's no place to pipe the water to.
Just then there's a cost of piping and rights
and
uh.
And the sidewalk will include language about we can seek mobility fee credits. We're a quick calculation there is it's only about fourteen thousand. I think the application fee for a development agreement is about ten. Of course my fees. So we may never seek the development agreement. But that's just to show tell you kind of the the magnitude of the commitment to do that sidewalk. Mobility fees aren't gonna cover it by far, uh the credits, but my clients would be able to do it and we would uh welcome your support of the project. Thank you.
Um, just a c one curious question more. Is that sidewalk, how how wide will that be? Five feet.
Five feet.
Okay.
Alright. What else from up here? Anyway.
I think it sounds like it's better than what they got now. Okay.
So is that a motion?
Uh I'm gonna need some help from the assistant county attorney over here as to the goodies in the deed, the voluntary Well do you just move approval with the I would move approval with the
deed restrictions just discussed by Ms. Will Hyde. By Ms. Will Hyde.
Okay, so we have to motion. I'll second. There was a second. All right, discussion on the motion.
Well I I think I'll I'll add here, I mean it it's important to note that We go back to the whole property rights issue and in Hmm. The property owner still even though I know they're gonna add units and and the adjacent residents may not necessarily like the type of units that are being added. Um I think we've talked extensively, I mean the the proposed number of units is far less than what they could seek. And I believe they've already talked about the densities lower than what they could
provide without the the modifications of the zoning now. So the arguments about traffic, I mean I I applaud the the developer for all the concessions and all the things he's offered here. Um again, they are voluntary and just by definition that's voluntary. Um I mean again I guess it really in summaries I mean the The property owner does have a right to develop his property, has a right to build something there. Um And that's why I mean I'm all support this the
way it's it's proposed in in the motion that's on the floor.
Okay. Any other comments?
Uh uh excuse me. It was not too long ago that an individual had a piece of property that he wanted to subdivide basically in the same area. And I look at the homes around it and I see larger lots. And there is a concern that has not really been cleared up in my mind of tra of traffic. But no matter what, traffic will
always be there and will always be an issue. But that's the issue I have is the fact that not that long ago we indicated that it was not appropriate for the commun the area. This is roughly forty-some acres of property that I think could be subdivided into homesteads instead of town homes. Uh therefore I I do have a little difficulty supporting the issue. I am concerned and understand property rights. But
anyway. That's the end of my remarks. All right, Peter. Thank you.
Sure. I mean that just so you understand, Peter, that the zoning he has now allows much smaller lots than the surrounding lots. I understand. I just want to make sure that was understood.
I do understand that. I think the difference between the case at the far end the tougher road that we heard the last time we were here at Dade City was The the biggest issue was tougher road. The condition of tougher road and there was no there was no mechanism in that proposal to pave the road. That's different here. And now we've not only got a mechanism to pave the road, but we just got a mechanism to get a sidewalk that we didn't get out
of the previous hearing we had today, which School board had concerns with the right-of-way. So to me it was a balance and I'll tell you when I first saw the case too I said, oh my god, what are they doing? They we just turned one down in the same neighborhood but I think the circumstances of this are different.
I understand that uh we all have uh
different types of class glasses to see items being that are brought before this board. But I just indicated one of them was you said about the tupper road and subdividing down there. But I also look at the property around this forty-four acre or forty acre piece of parcel that could be developed into I think larger homes, but uh That's how I feel about it. So y I think that's enough said. So I'll just call the
motion. That way we can end it.
I'll I'll just go on the record and commend the developer for his commitment to doing the improvements out there, including the six foot fans in the paving. I think that's that's far far above what so I commend you for making that commitment.
Yeah well as I said before, I think I I just always and I think all of us up here always try to balance It's it's a balancing act 'cause you have to balance the rights of a property owner with the rights and the expectations of the current citizens in the area. So what we try to do is push and pull until we c feel like we can we have a reasonable balance in that area. And it's not not perfect. It's never gonna be perfect, but the world s keeps changing.
I don't always like what it ch how how it changes and no some other people don't either, but Uh we have to make it the best we can. uh within the boundaries that we have to work with and I think that's what we're trying to do. Listen to everybody's concerns. Put ourselves in Not only your position, but the position of the property owner and the developer too. We don't owe it to a developer to guarantee a profit. w we do owe it to make sure that if he comes in there
and does a good job that that we give them the opportunity and as long as we feel like we're protecting the residents then I think we've done our job. So uh I'd like to thank everybody for um their comments and their participation and I hope we've reached a mechanical uh conclusion. So let's call for the vote. All in favor signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye.
Aye.
Uh nay like sign? Nay. All right, I think the nays have it. I mean the eyes have it. Sorry, Freudian.
Here we go.
Yeah, what's next?