Live Local Act legislative update and legal strategy

1:22:08David, do you wanna live

1:22:11local? Well so first I'm gonna ask Ralph, do we have any real time updates?

1:22:17So this update may differ, right? Um Jack or Mike are probably gonna jump in here in a minute. Um can we get my PowerPoint up there? So we met with the Senate President's Office, Jennifer in the Senate President's Office yesterday, and we showed her this chart. Um can you all see this chart? So basically it's showing you that We don't have a deficit of affordable housing in the eighty to one hundred and twenty percent range. And so this is what we tried to show the Senate President's

1:22:48office that hey can we tailor the Live Local Act so that it's actually addressing Pasco County's true need. Which if you look at this chart, our true need is in the zero to eighty percent range. It's you know, we do have we do have a deficit in that.

1:23:04Okay, so we do have a deficit in the zero to per to eighty percent range. So and this was this is done based on a study we had done by USF. Um the data source is actually from the University of Florida, but and this is for the entire Tampa Bay MSA and we're working on data specific to Pasco. But this is to me this is a very telling graphic because it's showing that the target of the Live Local Act, which is this eighty to hundred and twenty percent range. both for the land use preemption and the tax exemption. That's not a need for Pasco. And so Our

1:23:35initiative over the last few weeks, and and Mike has been instrumental in this, and Jack's been helping, you've all been helping, has been trying to get this leg, and I'm gonna give a special thanks to Commissioner Simpson, who's been who was very instrumental in trying to get open up a dialogue with the Senate President's Office, explaining this to the Senate President's Office, explaining how what might be a need statewide for Lib Local is not necessarily Pasco. need, Pasco's real need is in that 0 to 80% range. So we met with Jennifer in the Senate

1:24:05President's Office yesterday. Um she did explain to us that the our initiative is sort of being bifurcated, which this gets a little complex, but the land use piece, um, which that's where the commer our commercial industrial property is subject to the land use preemption. The land use piece, there's going to be a bill, she's already told us there will be a floor in the amendment that will be addressing the land use piece. Now whether it has our language in it or not is still up in the air. That's why I just asked Ralph, do we have a real-time update?

1:24:35Uh we may even have something as is you know this afternoon on that issue. But we should know either this afternoon or the latest tomorrow whether our request on the land use side, and I can show you that language.

1:24:47And David, that would have to be by two o'clock today. So

1:24:51I believe so, but I'm not the expert on when they the latest they can file floor amendments.

1:24:57Yeah, they may do some on the floor, but by by today, two o'clock, whatever's gonna

1:25:00be submitted has to be submitted. Yeah, there's some permissional elements that have to happen with that, so it's a higher standard. So two o'clock today will be a very good bellwether.

1:25:07So here's the language that we actually propose on the land use slide, and this is the language some this language

1:25:13is what we'd be looking for in the legislation that would be coming out today. We basically ask for the abilities that if we do a study, and we have a study in the works for USF that shows some of the data that I just showed you, if our study shows that our real need for housing, affordable housing, is in the is for lower income folks, and this in that lower income I consider 0 to 80%, then we can ensure that if somebody comes in under Live Local and wants to use our industrial commercial property, they have Provide housing that

1:25:43meets that 30% need, or the 50% need, or the 80% need, because that is our real need. Currently, under the law. They somebody could come in, use our industrial property, use our commercial property, and they could provide housing that just at 120%. Well that's just market rate housing in Pasco County. That's actually above market rate housing in Pasco County. So it's not giving us any housing that's any better than what we normally approve anyway. In fact, there was a graphic on how many units we've approved recently, Mike. Is it

1:26:13thirty-six thousand multi-coming units?

1:26:18So all of those thirty six thousand so going back to the slide

1:26:24We actually have a surplus in the eighty to hundred twenty percent. That surplus is probably gonna go up because we've approved so many market rate units in the last five years, we probably are you know, we're gonna have well more than than that amount of surplus in in Pasco County. So we're d Live Local is not meeting our deficit. So our hope is that we can The first clue about whether the legislature is listening to us is whether language like this gets into the bill that's going to be coming in later today, hopefully tomorrow. Um

1:26:55the tax part of it, according to Jennifer, is now being wrapped into a separate bill, which they call the tax package, which would be dealt with later in the session. Um and that's part of a big Omni, you know, omnibund bill on whatever they call it, that where the Senate and the House negotiate tax exemptions. And so, according to Jennifer, the issue about whether they can change that threshold in the tax exemption will be debated as part of that larger tax

1:27:25package. That being said, to me, the land use side is a good litmus test about whether they're listening to us. If this change Gets into the bill that's going in tomorrow, I think that's a good indicator that they're actually listening to us and that they would likely make a similar change on the tax side because our proposed language on the tax side is almost identical. In the sense, if we do a study and it shows that our need is below 80%, we can take that 75% tax exemption that currently

1:27:55applies to 120 and bring Get down to 80, and then our proposal is that the 100% tax exemption would then be go down to 50% of AMI. So we would ratchet those tax exemptions down to meet our actual need. And if you look at the the you know the first folks that applied from the Florida Housing Finance Corporation, I'd say probably 95% of them were applying at 120. The the two that are the two applied in Pasco. We're applying at 120. So I do think that getting that tax exemption down to eighty

1:28:25percent will significantly help us. Um it may we may actually get very few, if any, tax exemption applications if it gets down to below eighty.

1:28:36Mr.

1:28:36Chairman

1:28:36Mariano. Yes.

1:28:38I think I think part of our challenge is gonna be is when they started out with this, they didn't call it the affordable housing whatever. It's called the missing middle.

1:28:48Which I I take issue with that description because Pasco County, or Pasco County, the missing middle is not eighty to hundred and twenty percent. I would argue there are missing middle is probably in the sixty to eighty percent range. That's our missing middle. And so there's this misconception in my opinion that statewide the missing middle is in the eighty to hundred and twenty percent range. There may be some counties where that have a miss a missing middle in that range. But for us the missing

1:29:18middle is I would say 60 to 80 or 50 to 80. That's that's our missing middle.

1:29:2450-75.

1:29:26You could be over 40. But we have a need even below 50. But if you're asking me like what would best serve our firefighters, our sheriff's deputies, our school teachers, which to me should be your target for the missing middle, it would be in the 60 to 80 percent range. I

1:29:43and I'm wondering if we should. Use their language, you know, because they call it the missing middle. Well, well that's the same thing. Well,

1:29:49but that's effectively what our that's effectively what our proposed change would do is it basically restructures what is the missing middle. It takes it down a tier. If we do a study showing that our need is below eighty, we take all of those tax exemptions and land use preemptions and basically bring them down a tier to our missing middle. It basically is working within the structure of the existing Live Local Act, but tailoring it to our county's needs.

1:30:16And I want to underscore that point because it it truly is. The language that that David has come up with. Truly addresses our need, it allows local control and allows the bill to stay intact as as the bill writers intended, whether whether or not you think

1:30:31they intended

1:30:32I'm I'm I'm just saying what I see here. So but that is that that's really the genius behind it. It and it it truly is a true compromise. I mean we could have been asking for carve-outs, exemptions, and things like that. The way that this Has been handled has been you know quite collegial and quite professional, in my opinion. And I and I think that it really truly is a way that enhances the bill. And that's kind of the way that we've we've put it. It it puts local control for affordable housing that makes sense for Pasco or

1:31:03makes sense for any other county. It can be distributed across this whole state to all jurisdictions. That's the beauty of it. Um so yeah, as as David says, we will wait. and see the land use side um is is part of that it's gonna be heard the bill the bill is to be heard I think on Wednesday uh so the cutoff for for amendments yes ma'am uh the cutoff for amendments is at 2 p.m. today

1:31:23so my recommendation to the board would be that if we don't get language similar to this um in today's bill or tomorrow's bill To me that's an indicator that probably time to give up, that we lost. Um and that we probably need to go ahead and just Send off our demand letters and start the litigation process. Because I think this is if this doesn't work, I'm not sure that any mean this is basically

1:31:53asking the legislature If you're serious about affordable housing in Pasco County, please do this change.

1:32:01Uh uh another um Something else that happened. Um I don't even know how how Ralph, I don't I don't even know how legislatively this could happen, but they opened up They opened up the time frame for more housing to apply.

1:32:19For the tax rules for

1:32:20more apartments to apply to come off the tax rolls as part of the amendment, but they went ahead and opened it without passing the

1:32:26amendment, right? Which I thought was interesting because they reopened it under the theory of Senate Bill three twenty eight. Yeah. But Senate Bill three twenty eight isn't even finalized yet.

1:32:34I know. So how'd they open it up?

1:32:36I I somebody directed them to reopen it. I don't know yet whether Pasco will get more than the two that that we have. Yeah. Um we need we need I'm hoping that our threat of litigation may have deterred a few people from actually applying. Um but yeah, there's there's probably gonna be jurisdictions that get more applications that to our point earlier, this may have just been the tip of the iceberg. I don't we don't know. Now the good news is that other jurisdictions And I'd say the one that's been

1:33:06most active besides us has probably been Alaska County and Gainesville. Gainesville did speak at the second committee meeting, made so many similar comments to what we made. They've been pretty active as far as wanting to get some changes made.

1:33:22What they're looking for is some way to identify um student housing as being exempt from live local.

1:33:29But I do think I do think that Gainesville would benefit from our language too. I mean, 'cause it would allow them to do a study showing that for them the need, you know, that if they want to target it to need, they could say, Well, student housing doesn't target our need. We wanna we we wanna tar we gonna do our own study to show what our need is and then target this to those that actually need it.

1:33:52I I think we're in incredible incredibly vulnerable because of the amount of apartments that are uh and that are done in the last five years and in the pipeline they don't have any protection. Um but I think every college town in Florida is extremely vulnerable as

1:34:08well. So one thing that's been kind of hurting us in my opinion is in the Tampa Bay area We're somewhat alone. Um Hillsborough's been somewhat supportive, I I would you know, but then they may be taking some action I think they're still investigating. But I was just a meeting in a Tampa Bay Partnership, you know, yesterday we're talking to some of the other jurisdictions. Manatee doesn't have any applications under Lib Local, Polk doesn't, Citrus doesn't, I don't think Hernando does. So

1:34:38most of the counties around us don't seem to be getting the live local activity that we're getting. And so it hasn't really hit their radar and they're not really So they're not really worried about it. That's why they're not saying anything. So it's it's it's really just a small portion of the counties in Florida that are directly affected by the applications that have been submitted so far.

1:35:01And and just to be more clear on when we said they opened up the application period, it opened up Monday and it closes Friday at five. for um currently built apartment complexes in the last five years to apply. And they also took out the renovated ones.

1:35:20They did take out the renovation language which is probably a helps us.

1:35:24Now how can they so So

1:35:27it's not in the existing law by the way. It's what? The renovation language was not in the existing law. That was a proposed addition to the law. Okay, but I

1:35:36wonder if they're allowing renovated ones to apply then, since they're not a little bit more than a lot of the same thing.

1:35:44But while that helps us, our biggest vulnerability is the fact that we have so many apartment complexes that have been built in the last five years or that we've approved that will be built shortly. We probably on a per capita basis have more than just about any jurisdiction in the state of Florida.

1:36:01Yeah, I think so too.

1:36:03So a lot of the reason Penelas Hillsboro are probably hurt less is a lot of their apartment complexes are older. They're not gonna be able to take advantage of that tax exemption. They still have new inventory, I don't get me wrong, but we have a lot of new inventory.

1:36:20So I guess that's Mike, did you wanna add anything or track? Yeah, I

1:36:25I

1:36:27think that's a good question.

1:36:27You

1:36:27know,

1:36:27it it's a very important for everybody to realize that this is a tax break for Just apartments that aren't gonna increase any more supply. Thereby it's not helping anybody. Uh they're just gonna give a tax break that's gonna hurt schools, it's gonna hurt the sheriff's department, first responders, all our all our county operations gonna get get hurt.

1:36:45And the school board and the water management systems.

1:36:48So it so with all those breaks going on and in the two that we have one's from California, one's from West Palm Beach of two applications. But if the rest of them catch wind of it or they find that they can make it work, it's gonna go. And I and I agree with you, David. We're gonna pretty much know by two o'clock today whether we get some wind or not. I'm gonna be driving up right after the meeting to go up there for to be up there tomorrow morning. I'm just gonna try to talk to our senators first to just say if you can just put a push on of some type of Discussion of what's going on, how your county's getting affected, maybe they can get

1:37:18something in to to make it go. That's that's our one shot for right now. On the other side with the House, our representatives, when it goes to debate there, they may get a little bit stronger for us. Um we'll have to see because everybody's worried about what appropriations they got. But this is such a critical thing for Pasco County, much more so than the others, but the others we don't know how much they gonna get affected, but we are leaving the charge and thank goodness we are leading the charge on it to at least create that awareness that others are looking at because otherwise Olachua County probably wouldn't have showed up the other day. So

1:37:50I personally talked to Commissioner Oakley County um and made him aware 'cause he had no idea that this was going on.

1:37:57I think Holatra and my and Gainesville in my opinion have caught on. I mean they're they're they're actively asking me for copies of our complaints. Uh you know they're they're researching what they can do to attack this. So but in my opinion they're probably the only other jurisdiction besides us that is actively We're working on doing something.

1:38:17Um I want to say that the the Florida School Board Association had no idea this was gonna affect them. Um I spoke with um school board member Crumley, whose attorney um lobbyist is Gray Robinson, who also represents the Florida School Board Association and Sean had a conference call with the FSBA. They had no idea they were all gonna get hit. So, you know, maybe this 120 AMI works in some counties, but you know what? It's not gonna

1:38:47work for their school districts.

1:38:50I did speak to Betsy Kuhn about that. She they are trying to get a carve out. No, I don't know where their requests they're trying to carve out the school millage from the impact. Um and they're trying to take it I guess because there's certain homestead exemptions that don't apply to school millage, so they're trying to use similar language to carve out school millage from the exemption. I don't know if

1:39:16You know

1:39:16Does that put

1:39:17more on us or but but you keep in mind that that would probably be part of that tax package bill. if there's any par abouts under the tax exemption or any changes to the tax exemption, at least according to Jennifer, that's where that would appear. It's not gonna appear in the bill that's going Today, tomorrow. Yeah,

1:39:34up to the right-of-way.

1:39:34Today tomorrow we either get something on land use or we won't.

1:39:37Can you talk about that a little more?

1:39:38Which which the

1:39:39tax the tax part of it.

1:39:41So currently um those who get a they get a seventy five percent seventy five percent tax exemption for any units that they supply that meet 120% of AMI. Now they have to technically be ten percent below market, but as I've explained in multiple occasions, that's fairly easy to show. All they have to do is do a market study finding three or four apartment complexes that have rent ten percent higher than theirs, and they could say they're ten percent below market. Um so

1:40:14All it is, as you know, through Florida Housing Finance Corporation they have to basically get Florida Housing Finance Corporation to certify that they meet that requirement. Those certifications are supposed to be coming out on February fifteenth for anybody that meets the requirement. I suspect the two in Pasco will probably end up meeting that requirement unless You know, I don't unless they know something I don't know. Once they've done that, they then have until March 1st to go ahead and apply for the exemption. The two in Pasco are seeking

1:40:44the 75% tax exemption for 120% of AMI, which I think you all know this, those rents are over $2,000 a month for a two-bedroom and they're not any lower than the rents they're charging now. But we've talked about this in some cases the rent actually may be higher than what they're charging.

1:41:05So if it goes to the once they get that certification notice from Florida Housing Finance Corporation, it then goes to the property appraiser who then makes a final determination about whether they qualify for the exemption. Now my hope is that our demand letters I mean I think we'll know pretty soon whether our demand letters are gonna go out or not. The only wrinkle may be is if they give us the land use

1:41:32Request, we won't know about the tax request until later in the session. That may that create a little bit of a dilemma for us because. Those applications are due by March 1st. And so we don't know whether we're going to get similar language on the tax exemption until later in the session. It at some point it's gonna start jeopardizing our ability to attack those two We might have to go and send our demand letters before we even have the language. No whether we where we stand on the faculty number.

1:42:00Mr Chairman M I have a question on that.

1:42:10Well my hope is that if I issue the demand letter, that they don't actually file for the exemption with Mike Wells. I'm actually trying to take pressure off of Mike Wells having to make that determination And it's not gonna be an easy determination for him because he's gonna have a letter from us saying we think it's unconstitutional. So I don't and I won't put Mike on the spot, but I'm actually trying to preempt Mike having to make

1:42:40a determination on on the exemption. In addition I don't have to serve the Attorney General for a demand letter. Once I file the complaint, I then have to serve the Attorney General and the Attorney General in theory could step in and try to defend it. Mr. Chairman Mariano. So it but it's not uncommon to send somebody a demand letter before you file suit. Ms. It's a fairly common all of our personal injury attorneys when they sue the county they got one once. They send a demand letter before they Before

1:43:11they file suit that's pretty common. But that's statutorily required. True. But It's not uncommon even when it's not a statutory required to to send a demand letter before you file suit.

1:43:23Mr. Mariano. Yeah, and I think David has done that those demand that letters need to get ready to go, which I'm sure they are. Um and I would say depending on how tomorrow's session goes would be the time of when we send it or not. If we haven't got this language in there or something like it that benefits us, then we need to pull the trigger so that uh property appraiser wells doesn't have to make a move. He can wait until this thing gets resolved in court. I think when you look at if you would go to that yellow chart again. Well, when you when you look at the way they broke these charts out and you look at

1:43:54the numbers, look look at how it starts up on the left side. after the thirty thirty zero to thirty percent, it goes at a ten percent range, a ten percent range, a ten percent range, a twenty percent range, and then a forty percent range. When they talk about the missing middle, the way that chart should be struck out all the way through with let's say ten percent increments uniformly, it would show you that this is like the top echelon of people that are actually trying to help. So I don't think that missing middle argument works. I don't think the Chart of Lacarlos works. I think we've got a great argument to why this

1:44:24wouldn't be on s unconstitutional and that's definitely worth the push to go forward.

1:44:28So on this chart it says Tampa Bay MSA. It doesn't say Pasco. So

1:44:32So there's a reason for that because you have to understand that I would so I asked the US USF to j their study is not done. Okay, they're still finalizing their study. Yeah. They did this as a favor to me, generated this chart based on the data they have currently. They're still working on the data specific to Pasco to tailor these numbers specific to Pasco. I don't anticipate they're going to be materially different on the eighty to 120% range. If anything, we may have even more of a surplus

1:45:03in Pasco than Tampa Bay MSA. Probably even underestimating the surplus for PASCO. But we just don't have the the study's just not done yet. So Elizabeth Strom in USF, she's aware that we're using this data, she's aware that it's part of a legislative request. She's actively working on, but the way the Schimberg Housing Institute publishes their data, they do it in these increments that Jack just talked about. She can divide them into different increments, but it just she

1:45:33needs time to refine that data specific to Pasco. She does have it, it just not to the point where she can publish it for it yet.

1:45:42So this is the best data I could get as of today. But we intend to get even better data that's more Pasco specific, but the general message should not change. It's gonna show that and Elizabeth has told me this. We don't have a need in the eighty to hundred and twenty range. There's another chart which I don't have up here which shows like eighty eighty six percent of our housing housing burdened or cost burdened families in Pasco County are in the below eighty percent range.

1:46:15And and and as I've said before, when you know, if this goes through and we have to raise our millage to cover the holes that it's gonna create. Who bears the brunt of that? It's the renters. in the non-homesteaded houses the people can't afford to buy their own home. Um and it's our business community. That's gonna carry the weight. of these guys getting the tax break for no benefit to our citizens. It's just insult on injury.

1:46:46And I listened to the second committee meeting and the sponsor of the bill openly said that this tax exemption is available to Mark your regrets.

1:46:56She did say that.

1:46:57So That that apparently is their intent. Just to give you tax exemption per market rate runs.

1:47:07So So I am so I'm cautiously optimistic that

1:47:14You know, the Senate President's Office will listen to our requests. And I do wanna thank Commissioner Simpson again for making that push for us. He was very helpful. He was able to at least get an audience that others could not. So I do appreciate all of his efforts.

1:47:32I do think that if if they w don't wanna change this for the state, um that w we try and seek a carve out like Monroe County got a carve out. Uh so the rest of the state you have to have a complex that has seventy units or more. And they I don't wanna say Monroe got a carve out, they got well they did get a carve out, made it worse for them in my opinion.

1:47:53Um but they're I'm not sure I would call that a carve out. Yeah, I know. They got a negative carve out.

1:47:58Yeah, they um where now any complex in the keys that has ten units or more can go off the textiles. Well before it was seventy, so they're gonna have a lot more. applications in the keys. Um and they were already very concerned about the one.

1:48:16So Commissioner, I will tell you that our initial request, our initial letter to the Senate President's Office It was clearly requesting a carve out for Pasco and one of those requests was because of Yeah, the job rich. Because of this chart which you've seen, which shows that we're not like other counties. You know, we we have a we're housing surplus and a jobs deficit. So we're not like Hillsborough and Orange, where they've got a job surplus and probably have a more of a need to live local. Our

1:48:46need is to work local, not live local. So We didn't we did ask for a carve out for this very reason. But Jennifer told us early on that the Senate president was not interested in doing carve-outs. The advantage of our new language is it's not a carve-out for Pasco. Any county that wants to do this study Could do this study. It's not specific to class. Now, I don't know how many other counties will do it. Maybe maybe maybe we're the only ones that will do it, but it's it's not

1:49:16a car about it.

1:49:19I see the beauty of your text now. This is um a different path if you want to take it. Yes. I love it. I didn't catch that until just this second. Sorry for my slippers.

1:49:32I thought of this while I was in the shower.

1:49:41Have all our legislators has our delegation seen this language and understand that this uh allows for kind of allows for a car route for Pasco. And potentially Hernando, I think we'll get

1:49:53to

1:49:53it.

1:49:53I think Jack intends to make it aware, make them aware. No. Certainly to the Commissioner Simpson has seen it, because we gave him this langu this is the very language we gave to Commissioner Simpson that he discussed with the Senate president. And so when we spoke to Jennifer yesterday, she had seen this language and she used the meeting as an opportunity to understand the intent of the language. And so we did explain that to her. Um but I don't know that our individual members of our delegation have seen it. Um but it sounds

1:50:23like Jack's gonna show it to them.

1:50:25Yeah, we're we're we're preparing some some documents that we can send to them so they'll have that awareness. I

1:50:30I think once two o'clock comes, then we need to if we don't have anything new that we can take. But I but

1:50:36I have shown it to the school board representatives. They are there aware of it. Olachua and Gainesville are aware of this request. I do think it would help all of them. I think it would help any county similar situated to Pasco. And there may be some counties that don't want to use it because they feel like 120% of AMI helps them.

1:50:53Can you go back to that jobs chart um that you had before that graph? And Jack, you're on the Tampa Bay Regional Planning Council. Um, you know, I was asked I asked if we could get fill in those other dots around us, but I was told it'd be really expensive. Um I'd love to know who those other counties are. You know, there's one, two, three, four, five, six, six there that could be in a cluster with That's

1:51:18Yeah, this this uh the on this list that they use is like fifty three different counties. There's like twenty that are in the point eight percent or worse, like the range we're in, and it's another seventeen that are on that but there's still like a missing ten because it was done a regional study. David's taking a look at it now for us to see if he can get any more information to make this even even more valid, but Um

1:51:39we can't find out who those dots are around that.

1:51:43I actually asked Tampa Bay Regional Plan Planning Council and I was told the person who did this is no longer working there. And so they could not give me the data for those other dots. This chart was created for Pasco County. That's why you see most of the counties that are actually identified are in the Tampa Bay area. So they were comparing Pasco to other counties in

1:52:04So Uh those dots probably do represent other counties, but they weren't focused on the rest of the state. So David Ingall may be able to complete this chart. I I don't know, but I'm hopeful that he can or that he can find somebody that can. Um that's not in my wheelhouse. I would not be able to do that, but maybe David Ingle can.

1:52:25Yeah. David thinks he can. Yes sir. Okay.

1:52:32Yeah.

1:52:33If we can we'll move on and uh we'll come back to this. Hopefully we'll hear something this afternoon at our meeting.

1:52:39If we get an update

1:52:40we'll have time, I believe.

1:52:41Between now and the end of the board meeting I'll you know right. I'll let you know if they addressed our concerns. Okay.