PDD-217552 Alvernon Drive 55 townhome rezoning
What the county recorded
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The source document
The county’s agenda for Planning Commission, Aug 26, 2021
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The county’s minutes for Planning Commission, Aug 26, 2021
The published PDF, as served by the county. This item is one entry in it.
What was said
Machine transcription of 1h 45m of recording, with speaker names inferred from voice matching. 93% of 611 lines carry a name. It shows what was said, not what was decided, and both the words and the names can be wrong.
Trying to get the PowerPoint up for P twelve.
All right. So moving on to item P12. Item P12 is PDD 217552. Um this uh item is located on the southwest. In southwest Pasco County, on the south side of Alvernon Drive, east and west of Patrician Drive, and it includes approximately 12.03 acres.
The request is actually for a change in zoning from R2 low density district to an MF1 multi multiple family medium density district, where the applicant has specifically agreed, voluntarily agreed, to record a deed restriction limiting the number of units to 55 and for single-family attached product only. So this is not going to be apartments.
The surrounding area is characterized by residential development consisting of single-family detached and single-family attached dwellings.
The location um Greater density was expected or thought of in this location as it has a res 9 residential, nine dwelling units per gross acre. And the subject property that we're talking about today was previously actually zoned to MF1 Multiple Family Medium Density District. And that zoning existed from 1984 through 2002, at which time it was rezoned to R2 Low Density Residential District. As I stated, the applicant has voluntarily agreed to record a deed restriction to limit the maximum
number of dwelling units to 55 and the types to townhouses, villas, or duplex style units.
I do also want to state for the record that there have been several ex parte communications, at least two that I'm aware of, with one with the entire Planning Commission, and the other one I received an ex parte specifically from Mr. Anderson. So just want to include those for the record, and I did send those to the clerk's office earlier today.
Denise, to be clear you mean individually with each planning commission member, not with the entire planning commission.
Well the ex parte was an email that was sent to every single planning commission member as one one fail swoop email.
I just want to be clear that
there was
they didn't the Planning Commission didn't hold a separate meeting.
Absolutely, that is correct.
That's okay, thank you.
There was one email sent to all the Planning Commission members. Didn't the Planning Commission did not meet with
Thank you, David.
So So on the zoning map I just want to uh go over the zoning map. The actual uh parcel is the one in that's in the Reddish or Reddish colored, that's the subject parcel. To the north of the subject parcel is Riverside Villas Unit 4, which is R2 zoning. To the south is River Chase Unit 2, which is a PUD that was approved in 2002. When that PUD was approved in 2002, it was approved for either single-family,
detached homes, or multifamily. One or the other, not both, and it was developed for single-family detached homes that are 50-foot-wide lots. As you go to the west, southwest, you have the Villa Del Rio Unit 3, which is basically single-family attached homes, several products together, anywhere between four, five, six products all attached. Additionally, if you continue south, um you're gonna see River Chase South,
and that is single family. I wish I can point. Oh, I I think I can. Fabulous. So this is River Chase South. This is single family detached homes. This here is Seven Springs Villas Condos, which are condo villas. This is Villa Del Rio, which I explained are attached products. This is Riverside Unit 4, and this is the parcel to the south, which is River Chase Unit 2,
which is the PUD that had the possibility of either multifamily or single family, but was actually developed as single family. And if if you keep going down here, this is um longleaf. M PD.
The future land use, as I stated, the thought process that there would be more density there, it's Res 9, residential 9 dwelling units per gross acre.
This shows the access to the site off of Alvernon. It's on the south side of Alvernon.
And the recommendation from the Planning and Development Department is that you recommend approval to the Board of County Commissioners. And I'm here for any questions you may have.
All right. Uh so there was a recommendation for approval with conditions. Any questions from the day is?
All right.
Good afternoon. Barbara Wilhite, 6327. Grand Boulevard, New Portuguy, Florida, three four six five two, and I have been sworn. That staff report is pretty impressive. A lot of history there. Uh clearly your zoning administrator knows exactly what's been uh approved and what the precedent is and what land uses are compatible. Um I think there's folks that want to speak and so I'm gonna be short and then I'll come back and and um offer um answer any questions and offer rebuttal. But let's the reason why we have this zoning amendment
before you is to allow attached product. We have deed restricted out apartments. It was never our intent to have any apartments. It's just that your zoning district allows attached product and apartments in M F one. So from the very beginning we we um de restricted out the the uh apartments. So the intent is to have attached product The maximum density is 55 units. The comp plan allows 90 units. And we're not going to be able to do agreed to fifty five units because that's the amount of
trips that are allowed under the current zoning. So we're not increasing the trips over what's approved on the zoning on the property today. So you think you're gonna hear about You know, the neighborhood incompatibility staff has gone through a detailed staff report and showed you that there's both residential, detached, and attached in this neighborhood. Um the um as far as flooding goes Attached product allows for more in-pervise area to be remained because it clusters from detached product. So this has to be an improvement
to having a de attached product as opposed to a detached product. It allows for another product type, which is always healthy to have different types of products and different housing available. You also hear about the traffic. As I said, we've we limited to 55 units because that's the trips that are allowed under the existing zoning. Staff has found the road standard. We'll have to do an access management analysis. Um so with that I will sit down and and listen to um the uh comments and questions that come up and I'll be ready to answer. Thank you.
Thank you very much. Are there any initial questions? Yeah, I'll again. No, we'll hear. the public, what they have to say. And let me uh I don't know how many of you uh intend to speak. But uh it's it's been my custom to just say before we start when there's a When there's a larger group. Whoever comes up uh and whoever follows, you know, please try to speak to something different. So we don't
hear the same objection each time. Um so that'll cut down the time that we spend on On the same subject. So um Everybody obviously has the right to speak, so if you want to speak Raise your hand and I'll ask you to come forward. State your name. And address. And then you uh You'll have an opportunity to state your concerns. So uh having said that, we'll start with uh start front there. Yes, sir. Come on
up.
And just state your name and address, please.
My name is John Russell, and I am [address removed]. I have been sworn. And I after tw uh thirty years with the city of Clearwater, I've had a lot of experience with folks on committees such as yourself and I appreciate your work very much. My uh issue that I wanted to bring before you is that Heritage Lake that I live in, property owner there, and I'm only representing myself as far as Heritage Lake,
And we get down to Um Riverside Village, there's actually two parts of it. And that area we share something in common. We sit in the same floodplain. And I would like to describe it to you, first of all, let me maybe I can shorten this. How many of you have actually been in these these neighborhoods. You've actually visited them so you can visualize what we're doing. Okay, some of you have not. That's that's fine. But let
me put it this way. You all know what a kid's little kid's swimming pool is. You've seen the plastic ones like the blue ones. Picture one that's like twelve feet in diameter, one foot deep, and it's round. and you're sitting in the middle of it and you got an umbrella. And when it rains, you can stay dry. For a little bit. And the water starts coming up. this is kind of describing the bowl that our neighborhoods are in. Over time we have built beautiful dikes all the way
around it. The first was Little Road on the West. And then to the north we got uh Rancho Del Rio coming down the east side. We've got Southern Oaks and across the bottom. We have nice neighborhood of River Chase and uh Villa Del Rio. There when it rains, one inch rain a week or so ago, caused the water on St. Lawrence. drive through there to be almost two feet deep. It can't go anywhere. I'm sorry. Water
can only do four things. Can he evaporate? It can percolate downward, it can flow out, or it can just sit there and go up. And that's the situation that we're in in this area. There is only one little tiny possible way for that water to get out of this whole area. And that's through a Pasco comedy. Wow. Drainage easement. that is so overgrown it's totally ineffective. So right now I just want you
to really consider that the more ground we make impervious in that area, the worse the situation is gonna get. And that's all I had to say unless you have any questions of me.
Any questions? Thank you. Okay, thank you very much.
Okay, who'd like to be next?
Yes, please come forward.
Welcome to State, your name and address, please.
My name is Miriam Butler. I live at [address removed]. I am the president of our Homeowners Association, and I have lived there for 21 years, attracted to that particular community because of its beautiful large home sites and the quiet. scenic nature of it. The entire 21 years that we've lived there, that
land of course obviously has not been developed, but we've seen the changes that the previous speaker has talked about. I have a document that I would like to submit. And I was told I could bring it over here.
Yeah, do I have a motion to file? Could you describe what the document is?
The document is a description of the legal standing for rezoning that for denying a rezoning that was established in a Florida Supreme Court case, Brevard versus Snyder in 1993. And
so you're handing us a copy of the Snyder case?
I'm giving you a summation of the Relevant. Information please.
Okay. You can do that. I'm fully capable of explaining to the Planning Commission the standard of review, but go ahead and read they can do that.
Oh I'm sorry if I really did not mean any offense. This is um a legal a document that I was advised.
I understand, but that's my job to advise the Planning Commission. Not yours, but you can have them receive an as well. So we have
a motion to receive and file. Do we have a second? Second by Don. Further discussion, all in favor, signify by saying aye. Aye.
I was struck by the two port two part um uh two parts of that conclusion that maintain that rezoning must be consistent with the county's comprehensive plan and that it also must accomplish a legitimate public purpose. The first part is the responsibility of the applicant, of course. And the second part is your decision as to whether there's a legitimate
public purpose. We feel that this rezoning of this parcel to multifamily is high density is in violation of the comprehensive plan under the section or the objection called protection of residential neighborhoods. Particularly policies related to residential compatibility and public and roadway compatibility. If we have 55 units, we're talking about easily 100 more cars a day on a dead-end narrow
street. If we if you look at the Um location of Alvern, it's embedded between bigger roads, but it doesn't access them. It is a dead-end street and 55 units Would affect all kinds of things in our neighborhood. The traffic, which is already pretty intense at that patrician and Alvernon. access point. The application failed to mention other streets that intersect
Alvernon like Genesee, Rhone, and Oklawaha. Those would all be impacted. And to get to Alvernon, you have to travel on three to five. Single single family home residential streets. All of those in all of the surrounding neighborhoods would be affected. The safety of our quiet streets would be damaged.
We feel that it's uh you know, that it would have an effect on our quality of life. Okay. I hope you will consider denying
this.
Sort. My only comment is that you know you're Your assertion of public purpose, that's a That's a very slippery slope. There would be a lot of people that would have said before you moved there twenty one years ago that maybe that was not a public purpose for you to live there. So you gotta be careful and I'm sorry, could you
repeat that? I didn't understand what you meant.
Who decides what whether it's a public purpose or not? There were people that lived here before you arrived twenty one years ago. that might have thought that your arrival and your decision to build in that area Did not serve a public purpose. So you gotta be careful about that. There are pro property rights as well.
Is doesn't the comprehensive plan ask you to preserve the integrity of neighborhoods that are established and that building be compatible with what's already there?
They do that when you arrived?
Well it's
all I'm saying it's a slippery slope.
The subdivision was
new.
Oh
m Mr Chair, I'm not sure she's accurate. Go ahead.
Yes, um. Establishing consistency with the comprehensive plan and land development code. At that point, if you want to deny the application, you would have to establish that maintaining the existing zoning serves some legitimate public purpose. So Uh I wanna make sure you understand that's what the standard is, that's not what she stated. She made it sound like you can deny it Did you if you just uh identify a public purpose that's not what the that's not
what the standard is. No. Well there's a lot of things. Listen, we're gonna have we're gonna have order in here and if we don't have order, you're gonna leave. So let's just be courteous.
Respect.
So is there somebody else who'd like to speak? And you can speak on that topic if you like.
Go ahead. We just want to hear you on the microphone. You state your name and address.
My name is Megan Duncan. I live on [address removed]. I would like to speak I was I didn't plan on speaking today and I'm quite nervous. I don't normally speak
today. Before you then before you speak then, were you sworn?
No, sir.
All right. Then let's swear you in.
Any about the gifts should somehow be back?
Yes.
Thank you.
Okay, so back to what you had mentioned to her. I actually moved into my home two years ago. So it was a very exciting time in our lives. It's our first home, and we're actually born and raised locals in the New Portchie area. So seeing Trinity 54 all the way to 19 to Wesley Chapel has been a huge shock in our lives, seeing things change. Mitchell, Starkey, all those lands changing to multifamily and housing. It's been really devastating to see it because we miss our cows and our land and everything.
Now, when we found our home on Nile, we were really, really excited because we found a house with a pool, half acre, no HOA, and the best of it is it was quiet. And we are very outdoor enthusiasts. We have our two dogs that we rescued and we do plan on having kids in the near future. So this land was very important to us. The neighborhood was more important to us than just the house. We're able to walk around the neighborhood very safely. There's not a lot of cars. However, when you do get to Avalon is it Avalon, am I saying it correctly? Uh
Avernon. The traffic is ridiculous. So we try to avoid that area as much as possible because the traffic is so crazy, especially with I think there's 10 new houses that they just got done completing out there. And I also worked in multifamily for six years. And with multifamily comes Riffraft. And being in a small, quiet area. Mm-hmm. I personally do not want to see multifamily come to our beautiful neighborhood. It would bring more
traffic, and we just don't want that. We want our neighborhood to be peaceful in the way it was. So it doesn't matter if someone moved in 21 years ago or two years ago. I think we're all here because we're on the same page.
Did you hear them say when they first got up that it would not be multifamily?
Multifamily or single family? I mean I don't want
anybody to build there, isn't it?
No, sir. Like when's enough enough, you know? Fifty four has just become ridiculous and we want our trees to do it.
Yes,
sir.
If you owned that property, that would you feel the same way if
we owned it.
Yes. Because I love our trees. I would like to know what are the benefits. What are the benefits besides just Like having houses. What benefits does building a home bring to our neighborhood, bring to the current residents?
What benefits did yours bring?
Huh?
What benefits does yours bring?
It brings a home. And the point is, sir, when is enough enough? When are we gonna stop building? We already have schools in Starkey that are taking two hours for students to be picked up by their family. Also residents who live in Starkey right now are having to be late for work because it's blocking traffic. It's we keep building and we keep building and we keep building. When is enough enough? I'm thirty-two years old. I've been here my whole life and I'm sick of it.
Well I've been here my whole life too, so that's not a good thing.
What I understand is that people have rights when they own property and they we have to be considered.
And the people in the surrounding areas, are you saying we don't have rights?
Of course you do.
Okay.
You have r you own that property that you're on and you own the rights to that property.
Well I think whatever it costs, if we have to cut
me you can control everything your neighbors do.
But if we can stop it, we're gonna try.
That's why we're here.
I just think if we have a little piece of property, let's keep that. Let's keep our trees.
Maybe
if it's not serving any benefit.
Maybe you can buy it.
Oh, if we could, we would. Trust me. If we can split it amongst all the communities, I bet you every person in here would have no problem saying, fine.
I I would highly suggest you make that attempt.
Okay. Okay.
Thank you. But thank you so much. Thank you.
Okay, next.
Yes, who would be next? Whoever's closest.
It's
coming.
I'm nervous. I wasn't gonna speak and I have been sworn in. My name is Lisa Bobber. I live at [address removed].
Thank you.
Um we purchased five years ago. We lived in Pinellas County. It got so condensed that we were on top of each other. And we said, okay, we're done with this. We found our nice half acre. Put a garage up back. The downfall is we have ditches in the front of the yard. Swamp in the back of the yard, culverts in the middle of the houses for all the water to drain. There's no drainage. There's no sidewalks. Okay, the
road that they're talking about putting this on. Nobody has explained to you, but it goes into the back side. Can you show a picture of that map again? I was there yesterday. and you can count the cars every fifteen seconds, going one way or another way. They come on From Little Road to St. Lawrence, which if you wait to get out of there, you're waiting two to three minutes for your traffic light. To change. If you
up car is coming straight, if you're the fifth car, you're waiting for another light cycle. They leave Little Rogue going, okay? The backside. We're The actual property is if you're looking to the west side. there is a road there that goes in the back side of that subdivision. That subdivision goes all the way to Starkey Road. They come in off a little road on Saint Lawrence, make
a right on Sacramento, Uh they make uh I have to l make a right, then they make another right, then they make a left on this street. There's no sidewalks. on the street. There's ditches for the water to get out of there. We have pictures to show. The ditches are up over the road. You can't even go through. You have to go around another way to get out of there. So if you're going to put in more people, I'm not saying
you can't build. You want to build single family. You know, half acre, one acre, you know, fine. It goes in between the two subdivisions. All right, 'cause that's what it is. It's in be sandwiched between two subdivisions, a narrow strip of land to where you can actually see the other the houses on the backside. And and I just don't get it. How are you gonna go rack stack and pack when we can't even get water out of our place now? Now let's put more concrete and more driveways
with no No drainage? You want to put drainage in sidewalks in our subdivision? I've been asking for it for five years. I can't even get anybody to come out and clean a ditch. for trees growing. Y sometimes you can't even make a right on Off of Saint Lawrence on Little Road because the growth is so high. County says, Mm, that's private property. Well then Notify them to clean it, but we can't get anything done. And it just seems that whenever somebody wants to do something
that doesn't coincide with the neighborhood, it just, okay, go ahead and do it. You're allowed. Just because you own it. Well, if you knew what it was before you got it, you shouldn't have gotten it. L I've got swamp land. Does that mean I use of land? I can change it. So anyhow that's and I wasn't gonna talk, but The drainage problem is
bad. Can I ask you a quick question? You said something about sidewalks. Yeah, we don't have sidewalks. Finish,
let me ask a question first. Come
over
to the
microphone so we can. Riverface Drive and Patricia Drive. They have no sidewalks on those two streets.
Some of them do, but they don't connect anything. Like you'll go just wanted to know that's all. I don't know every street. That's all I want to do. I know the street. That's all I want to
know there was some. Thank you. I appreciate it.
Yeah, this street particularly does has no sidewalks on either side of the road.
What street you
all the way down? No.
Avalon. Avalon. Okay.
Okay. And even Saint Lawrence, which is the main drag, doesn't have it.
Mr. Chair, before this goes, Hi,
my name is Judith Padd and I live in the
US. So on the issue of sidewalks. At the time of site plan approval, would this project be required to install sidewalks? I'm asking that to Denise or Brad or whoever can answer the question.
I'm I'm deferring that question to Brad Tippin, the development review manager.
Not sure if it's all Is it on? Yes. Yep. All right. Uh yes, when they come in they are required to put sidewalks in front of their facility. They are not required to put sidewalks all the way up and down other portions of the street that do not have sidewalks.
So along Alvaront. I don't know if I'm saying it right. Alvern Drive, they'd be required to install a sidewalk? Okay. For the length of their property. Thank you. I'm sorry, go ahead.
My name is Judith Patton. I live [address removed]. And I just have a little comment to say that don't you send things out to notify people that are in the area of what's being built around them so that they can come and give you their opinion. But you people are very nasty to everybody. We have the right. We have the right to say that it doesn't match what the other villages that are there. It doesn't
match.
Thank you. But we do send notices out to everybody.
To be clear, Mr. Chair, it's area I think it's within a certain distance. What is the distance?
It's five hundred feet from the project boundary per the land development code.
But I believe there's also a sign posted as well, correct?
There is a sign posted and it is also posted in the newspaper.
All right, who'd like to be next? We come forward.
My name is Renee Whitehead. I live at [address removed], and I have been sworn in. I live right across the street from the land that is going to be affected. And I've heard what you said to everybody else. I can't say much more than they have already said. I do have a lot of concerns living right there. The traffic is crazy right now. Mm I'm scared to back out of my driveway. I am scared to check my mailbox. My mailbox has been hit. and strewn across my yard. What if that were a child? I'm very concerned for the traffic in this
area. On top of the drainage. I would like to submit to you some photos of the flooding on Alvernon Drive to show how high the water has gotten. Each photo on the back, I have listed the street names of where that flood water is occurring. You can see that it has reached almost the bottom of mailboxes and it is completely impassable. There are cars stuck in the road. And if we put more concrete down, I just feel like it's going to get worse unless something is going to happen with drainage. And I'm not sure
how much this will mean to the planning commissioners, but we did start a grassroots petition just to show the opposition from the neighboring communities of this happening. So I would like to submit both of those for record.
Sure. Make a motion to accept the end of record. Receive and file.
A
second.
We have a second. All in favor?
I
So with everything said already, I have concerns for the wildlife. I feel like there are single family homes there that would leave more green. That would allow for more animals to stay safe where they are. I'm not opposed to building in general. I'm opposed to fifty-five townhomes that will just take up a slew of the land that's there. We bought because of the beauty of our neighborhood and we've just like to keep it consistent. That's my opinion and I hope you will consider it.
Yeah, I just wanna make sure that everybody understands, you know, our job really is to decide whether It's it's an appropriate. use of that property. We can't we don't decide Whether it's an engineerable property. or whether they can develop it in such a way as not to flood their neighbors.
That that takes that takes place somewhere besides here. Okay. And even if we approve it, if they can't engineer it to work. properly then it they can't build it. So I just hope you understand we're just so nervous. There's more than just this step.
Yeah.
I just want to explain that to you.
Thank
you
very
much. We're we're only focused on the use of the land. And uh but there'll be other questions as to flooding and you know uh you know other land related
Will there be studies on wildlife as well?
Yes.
Okay. All right. Well thank you for your time. Oh, yes, sir.
Question.
see to the south of that property there's at least three rows of houses in there already. I would assume those are probably about fifty foot square lots. So there's density to the to the
River Chase, yes, that is a very dense neighborhood. Okay,
and there's density property to the north and east and west too. So Where do you see the wildlife at primarily?
Um right in front of my house. I have deer crossing my house every day. There's coyote that have paths in front of my house and I fear that they'll be nooses.
Yes.
What type what type of wildlife do you see in there?
I've seen turtles, I've seen deer, coyote, raccoon, wood storks. And you
are
I've seen them all on that link.
No, because it's twelve acres of land. So the animals do have a habitat in there.
Okay, thank you.
You're welcome. Any other questions? Thank you for your time today. I really appreciate you.
Thank you very much. Thank you for coming.
All right. Who'd like to be next?
My name is William Gillis. I have not been sworn in. Okay.
We're back to give it truths to help you guys.
So help me gut.
Afternoon, gentlemen. I've been here a couple times.
What William Gillis?
I'm sorry. William Gillis. I live at [address removed]. Thank you. Right across the street from the property that's in question. And back in two thousand twelve we went through this once before. Now I realize you guys just make advise the commissioners. But I guess my question is do you are you responsible to do your own due diligence to see whether or not it fits all the criteria that is required to change the zoning? Or
do you just rely on the community, the staff, And the property owner's attorney to determine to get your information.
What what's your uh what is your concern?
Well my concern is that you Uh I you guys are volunteers selected by the commissioners if I understand Is that right? Right. Okay. So your responsibility is to make sure that the commissioners get good advice, right? and if order for you to give good advice, You probably have to do your due diligence. To investigate whether or not What you advise the commissioner. is proper. Do you agree?
Absolutely.
Okay. So my question is, who do you rely on for your information? Do you specifically go out and investigate? Do you have staff that goes out and investigate? Or do you just assume that if there's no pushback that We should go ahead and advise the commissioners. That this is They should go forward with this. I g I I mean I guess I don't understand the process. Because You guys mentioned that you got advice
from somebody else. I think the gal stood up here and advised you that this was uh good idea. I know the attorney from uh the property owner advising you Where else do you get your advice?
Well we have a whole staff of people that that review all these documents applications and
engineering.
No, I'm d I just reclaim my time. I'm looking at uh uh Pasco County, uh, Florida dot net document center view Um I can give this to you if you guys if you wanna uh read it yourselves. But I'm looking at
The road capacities By Pasco County standard, this Alvernon is a type four road. And what they state here is type four streets are streets providing two through lanes. and usually serve as call de sacs, which is exactly what that's French for dead end, by the way.
Type four streets may provide connections to streets functioning. classified as major county roads. Well, Elvernon does not reach any major county roads. As was stated before, there's several s roads in between. As a matter of fact, the property is a mile from a main road. So yeah I'm sure you're not gonna send any public transportation down those roads.
They designate it as No greater than fifty units. Now I'm assuming that units means family units, house houses or something like that. If you put 55 units in there, you're adding to the 27 units that are already on that street. So your capacities don't line up. I hope you guys somebody investigated that. Now the bullet points are flooding. Of course, already stated. Compatibility.
already stated there's not a single family, multifamily uh residents in that area. The only one is a private community.
Mr. Chair time.
Which pardon? Time's up.
Okay.
Yeah, I would summarize by saying Investigate. The EPA already has a standard for pollutions into the Anclote River. Need to investigate. Don't make a recommendation based on
I think I was telling the last person that was up here that we don't make the uh final decision.
I understand, but you make a recommendation.
Of course, based on what we think about.
The zoning it is, R1 single family homes.
And so just for clarity, this is a zoning hearing that there is most of the items you brought up are engineering related and site plan related items that are addressed when it gets to that point in the process.
But you would want to have that information to make a recommendation to the commissioners, wouldn't you?
That doesn't have anything to do with the zoning though. They would need to address that at site plan removal.
Okay, you're gonna recommend either go ahead and rezone it or not rezone it, right?
That's correct.
Okay. If you recommend that it be rezoned based on faulty information, that would be would be a failure on your part. Do you agree?
No sir. That's not that's not a good idea. Okay, so you're
you're saying you're willing to
ask me a question. Can I answer?
Yes, go ahead.
Thank you.
Okay.
You asked about the zoning. If we recommend approval of the zoning, they still have to meet the requirements of the site development plan. That's all I'm saying.
Okay. I understand what you're saying. But if the zoning is doesn't meet the criteria that it's supposed to, and you recommend that it be rezoned You're not doing your jobs. Your jobs are to recommend based on the information. that you res that you receive or you investigate, am I right?
That's correct.
How can you make a recommendation with against what the zoning requires?
My my point is is the EPA and the discharge to the Anclope River has nothing to do with the zoning. That's a site plan. That's an engineering issue.
Okay, okay. So you were stuck on the the SWEP or whatever. I'm sorry,
I was just br I was just stuck on what you brought up.
Okay. Okay. Fair enough. Thank you. Thank you.
They'd like to be next.
Hi, my name is Jean Garrito. I'm a little nervous. It's okay. I wasn't gonna talk. We just get your own. I live at [address removed] and I was sworn in.
Okay.
I think we understand this is about zoning, but with the zoning goes more population. And I think that's what we're all a little bit concerned about here. And the street has no sidewalks, which has been mentioned already, on our end. I think it was mentioned that sidewalks would be put in with the new housing. What about on the street where I, the part of the street that I live on that
is dangerous to walk on? The other big thing that I have a problem with is the egress. Most people are going out to Little Road from St. Lawrence. It's a three-minute light. There's no right hand lane to make a right-hand turn. You wait at that light. if you're not the first four cars You're taking chances and going through yellow lights. To get out of there because you don't want to wait another three minutes.
And I think the traffic that is going to come if this is rezoned. to and I'm a little confused by fifty five units And it's multifamily, does that mean 110 units? I mean a hundred and ten families. Because it's double. I'm not I'm a little confused on that area. Total of fifty-five units. So patched units. Total.
Yeah, total of fifty-five.
It's not a hundred and ten then. It's not it's fifty-five units. Okay, because I'm
thinking of it as fifty-five homes.
Okay. That's where I was confused. I didn't know if it was fifty-five and then they're double to okay. So that's most homes have two cars. That's an extra 110 cars down that street. I don't think I think only a few of you put your hand up that you've even been on that street. You should take a drive on that street. People don't stop at Patrician and Alvernon. People don't stop at Roan and Alvernon. People go through the stop signs all the time. There's
black um tar car tracks from the racing up and down that street. It's dangerous and we don't need more traffic. Thank you for your time.
Thank you for coming.
Okay, next.
How are
we doing today, sir?
Good. Welcome.
My name is Marcus Coe. I live at uh [address removed]. I did not uh plan on speaking, so I did not swear in.
Okay, let's
do that.
Thanks again to help you back. How do you
Uh thank you for the time. Um I have two points that I want to bring up. One, um I'll give you a little about who I am. I grew up in this area. Sorry, I lose I get a hoarse at the end of the day. I grew up in this area. I joined the military, I served for eighteen years. I came back to this area. I bought my house four and a half years ago. So I could stay in this community. I couldn't wait to retire to live here. I found a house that is on the perfect street. I I
know all my neighbors. I see my neighbors out here today. Now I see neighbors that aren't here. Why are they not here? Because they're not afforded the luxury of being able to miss work and come here to speak on behalf of other neighbors. Because right now with everything that's going on, it's more important to make sure you're at work to be able to pay your bills. So I'm gonna try to do my best and I was an infantryman, so my verbiage is very short. to explain how this affects the
community. Everybody has stood up here and explained about the traffic. Before you make a recommendation, I would recommend that each one of you spends an hour and look at that traffic. Go to those intersections. You're only here for zoning and I heard that. But when you're looking at zoning, you've got to look at how you're affecting the people. And each individual person that you're going to affect is along those streets. I would I would hesitate to see you grab your dog and walk them down those streets at five o'clock in the afternoon. and see if
you would do it and say, I'm OK with another hundred and ten vehicles coming through here. Or do it at first thing in the morning when before you have to go to work to make sure that you're Your child gets to the bus stop, whatever it may be. You might only be here for zoning and you don't care about what the flood damage has to do with it or what any of the other processes that go along with it. But you're the start point of that. You're saying they need to worry about it then. It should be worried about it from the beginning. The beginning of it starts with how do you
affect the people around you? You said it was a slippery slope twenty one years ago when that person lived here.
No.
If that's the case, I've lived here my entire life. I will tell you that when my grandfather bought his house here in 1978, that he owned till the day he died, and the house that my dad bought in 1986 that he still lives in to this day. If they would have known about this community that we lived in back then, they would have bought there because it reminds us of where we're from in Pennsylvania. It's a small town, it's a small street where people People know each other. People don't always know my name, but everyone knows my dog. They come up and they see it.
You you you laugh and you look at it, but everybody will come up and they'll go, that's Rohan, and they'll pet him and he's an American bully. He looks like a pit bull. But that's what this community brings. And when you change that, if you were doing half an acre lots like everybody else in the community, I'm pretty sure that no one in here would have an issue because it's maintaining the integrity of what we have. And I appreciate that you look at it, you look at what you're doing before you just make an approval recommendation. And thank you for the time.
Thank you for coming. Sir. Thank you for your
service. Sir, sir. I'm sorry. Before you leave, I just wanted you to alert your neighbors that we the Planning Commission did change its procedures so they can attend through what's called WebEx. So In fact that's what all these video monitors are for? Unfortunately
some of them because of their work they cannot yeah, I've talked to them. Some of them work on, you know, driving truck where they can't just pull over. They're on schedules.
I I understand. If somebody was in office at work, so then in theory they could attend through WebEx. So I just wanted you to make sure you knew that. Oh, I I knew about it. Okay. All right. Thank you. Thank you for your service.
Thank you. Thank you for your service. And just so you know. I'm a Vietnam veteran. I'm a I'm a veteran of the of the military. I've I've got five
combat tours between
Afghanistan and Iraq. Three sons in Afghanistan and Iraq. So I know what it's like to go off to war and come back. To the same town that you grew up in. I Definitely appreciate your comments. But I just want you to know that Is it y you're not the only one? Uh I know
that's but that's why I moved back here. Because I believe that Pasco County does believe in us.
Thank you.
Okay, who's next?
Good afternoon. My name is Bruce Hogewerf. I live on [address removed], which is one of the lanes that intersect or one of the roads that intersects uh Alvern of the three roads that were listed. I'm six lots in. Um I have my grandkids coming over every other weekend and spend the night with us so we have a our our whole front yard is filled with grandkids because I've been blessed with a lot of them. and there's a lot of kids that live on our street. I'm concerned again, as my neighbors have talked about, I'm I'm concerned about the traffic, uh,
especially Uh one of the things I like about our subdivision is how spread out it is. We have we have a rare uh subdivision compared to Pasco County in that uh We our lots are bigger and um So it it's nice in that regard, but uh the thing I don't like about it is they didn't put sidewalks in uh in any of the roads, uh at least in the in the uh Riverside Village Estates subdivision. uh
there there are no sub uh no sidewalks there, which makes it an unsafe thing when you're uh when you're increasing the amount of traffic flow, uh I think. Um and m my wife and I walk uh every day for health. We're both healthcare workers, so we uh when we get home we we uh go out and take a walk, try to And we see the wildlife. There are deer, a lot of deer. We got two young bucks that that
They go between Amazon and Alvernon because there's property over on Amazon. But um Anyways, uh I'm concerned about that and as my neighbors have talked about, definitely concerned about the I've been lived at my property for 24 years. Uh w we liked it when we moved in, but as we've seen the county approve developments around us, as the one gentleman uh from Heritage uh Uh
uh brought out there has bec we become like in a bowl because any any approval that happens here then goes to whatever level it goes to and then they whatever is approved they raise the the ground elevation. And so uh I've seen the the cow pasture that was to the south of us, it it got raised like three or four feet. uh any any water that runs off, it's gonna seek lower level. And now we're that lower level. and if it can't flow out then then
you have issues. My issue being on Oklawaha Lane uh when the when Alvernon is flooded, like the pictures show, uh Alvana uh Oklawaha is gonna be the main way out for the for this group of people. And my little quiet street is gonna be uh a through way. So those are all big concerns for me without a sidewalk and with with the kids that are out there. So um P please consider that.
Thank you. Any questions?
Okay, thank you very much. Thank you.
Mr. Chairman Mariano. I don't know if we're done with the public speaking, but I do have a question for staff about flooding, but I wanna wait till we get a hear from all the speakers.
Was there anybody else that wanted to speak?
Yeah, maybe I just wanted. We need to I'm sorry.
Do you swear from the testimony about to give the truth so help you guys? Yeah.
Excuse me. Um I'm giving some different pers different perspective. I live on River Chase. What's your name please? Oh I'm sorry, Paul Paxton. I'm sorry. And your name is
Your address?
Uh [address removed]. Thank you. Um I didn't plan on speaking either, so
Um I live on the back side of River Chase. There's flooding, there's traffic. Um right now that area is holding twelve twelve to twenty inches of water. It's very, very wet. Our elevation on our road is like 26 feet. Alvaron, I'm probably wrong, is like 26, 29. So whenever he builds, he or she, whoever builds, uh is gonna bring in a lot of dirt. It was originally supposed to come in from the pond. or in our area of patrition. And after the developer which was Orzy was supposed to pull it
in there for it to be built. Back then in 04 when all this was planned, there was supposed to be twelve houses built. 'cause it's all preserved area and some of the people bought the lots, they paid a preserved price. Um 'cause of the woods in the backing and they were gonna do the twelve houses But they recommended that you know that failed. Now, I understand progress and change, and I'm all about that. Uh if it was to be twelve houses, I could totally understand that. Um because it's the way it was written up, I I wouldn't
it was it was divided very, very well. It waited for the wetlands, the pond down the road, where the deer are. I feed the deer. They eat a lot of food. Um I tell you that. Um But that's what he's gonna have to bring in is a lot more dirt. He or she has to bring a lot more dirt. And if it was developed with twelve houses. Uh All these problems would still be here, but uh maybe not as much. And it everything drains in the Anclo River. It drains towards Little Road. Um And the Anclote
River overflows and comes in on Alvernon and pretty much it's it's a mess. I've called public works department, Pasco, to come in and dig some of those uh ditches out to get everything to flow. Um As if you had no response. So that's pretty much all I got to say. Any questions?
Thank you very much.
Uh anyone else?
I was not planning on speaking and I did not swear in.
Do you swear from her testimony about the gifted picture still helped you back?
I do. My name is Jackie Wilson. I live at [address removed]. And actually it's more a question than a statement. To change the zoning to multifamily that would also include apartments and things like that, even though the developer has said They will not do apartments. Should we zoning or engineering or what have you. decide that their plan is undoable and they don't
do it. If someone else comes in to purchase that property and develop apartments, it's now zoned for that, correct?
Uh no, because they're they're putting a deed restriction on the property that would not permit multifamily.
Yeah.
But the zoning would have already been changed at that point. No,
but it wasn't. We won't release that deed restriction unless it goes back through the zoning process. So there's there's a deed restriction If we approved this it would be subject to this deed restriction that limits it to townhomes and single family, is that right, Denise?
Yeah, it's attached billows townhomes duplex products.
If they wanted that deed restriction released, I guarantee you that staff would make sure that goes through the back through the zoning process. before we would allow that to happen.
Okay, so basically we're going to over overload the thing, but not so much because they've promised they won't do it. But then when they find out we couldn't do that, so we're gonna sell it to someone
You're not
but it's already zoned to
the
right-of-way.
I d I did listen. But basically this was rezoned Years ago. to allow for a little more Density than was in two thousand six, correct?
That's what he just said they'd have to come back and do. If somebody else wanted to do something different.
So people bought there since two thousand six with the zoning that is currently there with the idea that that's where they were buying their homes.
And now it's
people that are living there are saying that's why we bought there. We don't want to live in a high density area.
Now they're asking to be a rezoning which is their right.
And the people that live there are asking you to please not do that.
And you have the right to come back and say, Hey, we don't want it there. Okay.
Maybe that too changes. I I wasn't sworn in. Um my name is Lance Frymer, I live in [address removed] and I haven't been sworn in. Okay.
Do you swear from the testimony you're about to give to the truth about the guard?
Yes. Uh my first question is, is this like part of Amazon, like where the where the whole strip is? Uh because I'm a little confused. I know, but there's a whole big area over there also. Because my question is if they get disapproved And I think it's gonna be the same person. Are they gonna ask to get the rest of it approved? And that that's sorry,
are you talking about the property north of Amazon, the vacant land?
Yeah, yeah, I live right behind that.
So that land is owned by the county and a and an M S B was created for it to be a park.
Okay, so was that so that's staying the way it was?
Okay. That's all I wanted to know. Thank you.
Yeah, that parcel was purchased by the county in 2014 and a municipal services business unit was established over that parcel that the gentleman is speaking about on the north side of Amazon. Which is Yes.
Okay.
So if I could ask my question, yeah, go ahead. And Denise, I don't know if you have anybody from Stormwater available or not. Um but On the issue of flooding, and I realize it's not strictly a zoning issue, but When the county bought the property north of Amazon I remember the Stormwater Department investigated whether creating additional storage on that property would help alleviate flooding in the area and their conclusion was that it would
not. And that's why it ultimately got purchased for a park, not for a Drainage project. So I guess I'm not sure. Th the the reason I'm confused is that y we have some people testifying this is a closed basin. And that there's no place for the water to go. Yet our stormwater department's telling me that creating additional storage on that vacant piece of land won't help. So It'd be helpful to hear from Stormwater about what we're
doing. What is the situation in this city? I mean, is it a closed basin or not? And if it's a closed basin then why would why wouldn't creating additional storage on the property north of Amazon helped the situation. I mean the county already owns that property so We very easily could create additional storage there. But Uh we were previously told that That wouldn't help. So Is there anybody from Stormwater available? To answer this or
no,
I don't have anyone from Stormwater available at the moment, but I do have Will Poon who can potentially speak about drainage.
All right, maybe Will can answer my question. Is he available? He's
off.
Yep.
I'm a
R.
Okay, we're gonna go.
Yeah. Okay, I'm this is Will Poonsty engineer uh in current planning. So Just to kind of give a summary of of the area, uh it is in a flood zone, AE. In in this particular parcel and in numerous parcels and adjacent uh streets and other residential subdivision in that area. So there has been a historic flooding, as people have noted before. Um It in theory, it is an open basin, but it always say it's a constrained.
Open basement. As many of the drainage issues are, you know, compound by, you know, most of these are interconnected stormwater systems with ponds and pipes and ditches and so forth. And ultimately they do go south to the Anclo River. But as anything, you have to maintain it. I think some of the issues probably caused by the drainage concerns that's been brought up is the maintenance that probably would be required for not
only the systems within the existing subdivisions, but also some in our public right-of-way and so forth probably need to all work together, maintain properly to help some of these constrained areas and provide more positive. Drainage flow. So I think that's probably the the one of the factors that That what is causing some of these drainage issues up with the
I think what you're saying is if we created additional storage on the county property it wouldn't necessarily help because that's not the issue. It's it's The two Drainage waves are not being adequately maintained. Is that the is that what you're saying?
Well, I mean b like I said, I I don't I don't know the study of that north piece as well as Stormwater, but from the limited information I do know within that area for this project. You know, it from being out there in the field and seeing some of the uh systems aro around this area, there there is some maintenance issues that's causing some some drainage concerns from
what I could tell. And you know are these County easement or they they HOA
they're a little bit
of both. They're both.
I mean I think I think the counties right away some of the roadside ditches need to be poly um Maintain, you know. Cut, we graded in some areas, and same with some of the existing subdivisions. I think in Riverside and other village phases. I think there's needs to be some maintenance in their roadside ditches and their pipes and stormwater ponds. I think there's there's missing maintenance there too. So that's what I was saying before. It's a compound. uh issue that's not only you know within
the subdivisions, there's there's some that's also in our right-of-way. And in all the downstream conveyance systems, such as ditches and pipe, others just need to be, you know, maintained and so forth.
Okay, so while I have you, Will, I'll ask you the direct question On the property at issue here Do you think they can create enough storage within their property to accommodate the fifty five units?
Well, I think as uh com Planning Commissioner mentioned earlier, this is a site plan review process. As I mentioned earlier, flood zone AE is designated on this parcel, so it has to address Land Development Code Section 902.2 G5 for floodplain encroachment. So that has to be addressed. And of course, you know, there are off-site drainage onto the site, so they have to accommodate and provide companions for off-site drainage. So it really depends
on addressing those issues and then the re-end result is whatever units they can fit after they address audience drainage issues.
So you're saying that if they could that they may get less units if they need to Provide additional storage. That that's an issue you would address at site. So They're not guaranteed fifty five units if they have to provide additional storage, they may not they may not end up with fifty five units. Is that what you're basically saying?
Correct. Yes, sir. So it's it's a design it's based on the strange design that determines the number of units.
Based on the the the way the drainage patterns in and all the drainage concerns that we have out here. And the floodplain, you know, encroachment requirements that has to be addressed. and other stormwater requirements is based on May of the Development Code Section 902.
Okay. I think you've answered my questions unless somebody else on the Planning Commission has a question. Anybody
else have a question about
So
Will ju just to be clear, this is Jamie Girardi. Um just to be clear This subject property is not part of any other master stormwater system. They were gonna be required to provide their own stormwater and their own floodplain compensation, everything correct?
Yes, sir. That is correct.
Okay. And then I have one more question for Denise. Yeah, go ahead, David. Denise, the applicant made a statement that the Fifty five units is the equivalent from a trip standpoint. to what they could get under the existing R two zoning. So Has staff looked at that, could they get fifty five units under the or maybe it's not I guess I need to know how many units could they get under the current R two season?
I'll tell you right now.
Yeah, they can get fifty five point two.
Under the existing zone, right?
Okay.
Yeah.
I I guess Barbara, maybe you can address this, but I I guess and and I c I can look through for look through the code and find this, but what is the difference in the minimum lot sizes for R two versus M F one um Yes, how do you get to that fifty five 'cause that was one of my questions that David already asked, but what is the minimum lot size for the two different zoning categories?
Minimum lot size for R two is ninety five hundred square feet.
And for M
F
one?
Let me put in perspective regarding this flooding issue. Okay, I'm sorry, I didn't hear I didn't hear a follow-up. What
was it for M F one?
M F one is it i they're buildings, not lots, because you have buildings. So it's it's I can't relate those two.
I can't relate the two. I can't relate the MF1s in the district.
The minimum and as Barbara's explaining, so you have a unit block. So the minimum is like 9,000 square feet in a unit block. So it's not so once you do MF, you're gonna start
So So theoretically under M F one zoning they could build twenty foot wide duplex units, but because they're not on their individual lots, you could just build a series of units?
Yes, attached product. Attached. Yes.
Okay. But you'll have a block.
So let me put in perspective. What we're asking is the ability to do attached product. single family detached, we want to do attached. And when you go from single family detached, very large lots, and you go to detach, you actually have less impervious. So our product project will have less impervious. So That's the perspective that I think we're missing is that you actually have a lot of benefits when you go to attached product. It creates
more open space. For example, our frontage is a quarter mile of frontage on Albernon. With our
estimating we'll still have eight hundred and eighty linear feet of open space. We're required to do a neighborhood park. Our attached product will be common architecture, common maintenance. So that unlike the single family homes where you have to have a homeowners association if you have one, because apparently some of the these don't have a homework association, chase after homeowners. Our product will be commonly maintained, common architecture, common landscaping, and will adhance the value values in that neighborhood.
Excuse me, I don't want to have any of that. Nobody did that to you when you got up here.
And and again we're single these are single family homes that are going to be attached. These are not riff raft, these are I don't even know what that means. Um but We're just attaching the product which will actually decrease the impervious surface and allow for the opportunity to make the situation better. We're not responsible for the drainage issues, historic drainage issues. in the neighborhood. We're not allowed to make it worse. But I've seen client after client after client when you when they go to attach product, they can make the drainage situation better.
As far as the sidewalk issue, we're required to put a sidewalk along Alvern. There's an existing sidewalk on our west boundary that goes to River Chase, so we'll be connecting to that. I'm no Mr. Hansel pointed that out that there are sidewalks in River Chase and the and the projects that connect to River Chase. There's a sidewalk system there. We'll be required to do that. The other comment and I'm addressing comments here is it's a narrow strip of land. It actually is two hundred feet deep. It's
a the typical single uh excuse me townhome product is between 45 and 60 feet. So if you got a 60 feet Minus 200 leaves 140 feet. So from that back property line, you heard a a resident that talked to you from River Chase along our south bound boundary line. I wanna point out that he has one of forty seven homes on our South property line. And but that being said, we're still gonna be off of his property line by about a hundred feet. We
intend on putting our stormwater pond along our south property line. So you can see by doing a townhome project, it gets actually increases the separation between our house and the houses along our homes and the homes along River Chase to our south.
Do you Uh Mr. Chairman Mariano? Excuse me, sure. Ron, go ahead.
Um two questions for you. One is, will you be putting a sidewalk in the entirety of Alvernon?
Our frontage is yeah, we have almost a quarter mile of frontage on Alvernon and we'll be putting a sidewalk along there and it will connect to River Chase's sidewalks and the sidewalk system. There's Older subdivisions of the county didn't require sidewalks. Didn't require HOAs, didn't require drainage, didn't require parks. Now the county has purchased a park for the neighborhood and they're going to do apparently the MSBU is going to be funded so they'll have their park. But this project's required to have sidewalks and to have drainage and to
have Up neighborhood park for the project.
Do you have an illustration of what the footprint of the Ah Buildings will be on the site itself?
I do not because we're just at zoning. We haven't designed it.
as a percentage of the total property Yeah, I would think it'd be Small.
Yes.
Can you give us even some relative instance of how this would play out? On that strip.
I I mean I have a few things that my client has given me. Um, townhomes, the fifty five townhomes was fifty four thousand four hundred fifty square feet. If you had nineteen lots, um single family your impervious is seventy two thousand two hundred square feet. So you're talking about
um impervious area than than your townhomes. And so I have seen many, many townhome projects that have helped the situation. Um we had the same issue in Little Lake Thomas that came before you on 41. The neighbors were concerned about townhomes and actually it creates an opportunity to make an improvement. It's just the differences between detached homes and attached homes. It's still this people still own them, they're single family, they're not renters, and they're get the benefit of it being commonly maintained
through an association.
So Barbara, you said fifty-four thousand square feet for the For what's proposed.
Which in an estimate, right? Because we don't have
that site plan.
If we use that property for h single family homes, it would be seventy-two thousand two hundred square feet of impervious.
Townhomes are gonna yield more number than single family.
Right. What I'm trying to understand is the difference between the two. If you if you had Fifty five.
Well you get my point, is I'm trying to illustrate the right-of-way. the utilization of the property. between the two choices.
In other words, I think what he's getting at Barbara is Uh of the twelve acres, how much will be covered by buildings? Thank you if it's Germany. If it's townhomes.
I am not an engineer, but I think I have the number right at fifty-four thousand four hundred and fifty square feet. But I could probably use some help since somebody's actually just a
little over an acre. Hi. Chris Shear, [address removed]. I have been sworn. Okay. Okay. What she what Barbara's trying to explain is I currently have site Development drainage permits through Swift Mud and Pasco County that allow for the construction of nineteen uh single family homes. Uh now if you look at uh the average typical size of a home in Riverside Village Unit four. The impervious
area is right around thirty eight hundred square feet. with their garages and their single floor, three bedroom, two bath houses with the back, you know, porch. By impervious
service you mean. I just want to make sure everybody understands what you're talking about.
The impervious area is the area of ground that's covered by the structure. And so that's thirty eight hundred square feet. Thirty eight hundred square feet times nineteen home sites, which I have permits for. would be seventy-two thousand, whatever number she said. uh impervious area. Now, the benefit of a townhome is townhomes, the three-bedroom, two-bath townhome, all the bedrooms and the bathrooms will be on the top floor. So the first floor with the garage and the you know, the great room and
the kitchen is gonna be about a thousand square feet per townhome. So even if I had to 55 townhomes, I would only have 55,000 square feet of impervious area over the whole 12 acres. But if I built the houses that I have permits for now, if I bur built the lots and houses at thirty eight hundred square feet, I'd be covering seventy two thousand square feet Of impervious area, which would add to the water that's going out into the uh ditches and the ponds.
So if the concern of the residents in the neighborshood is Uh Water and flooding Townhomes are a benefit. Fifty-five townhomes will uh create much less surface water runoff. Then we Nineteen thirty-eight hundred thirty eight. three thousand eight hundred square foot homes. If that makes sense.
Yeah.
Clear it's clear to me. I just want to make sure it's clear to everybody in the room. Yeah Because you're talking about Covering out of the twelve acres you're talking about covering a l a little over an acre. In buildings.
Correct. So if I ask that related question, are we done with that topic or are we done with that topic? Are we we done? done?
Okay, so I know I don't look like Commissioner Starkey, but pretend I am Commissioner Starkey for a second. Brad or Denise, would townhomes require to have a tree in their front does every townhome unit require to have a tree in their front yard? Under the existing code.
An orange tree.
That's a good question.
Under the existing code, no. They're required to have a a tree on the lot. Uh but the we can, I'm sure the applicant can discuss.
So I guess Barbara I'll ask because you're gonna get this question at the board if you hear it from me.
I know.
Are you willing to put in your deed restriction that each townhome unit will have a tree and it's
What I'd like to do, and I know this is gonna come up and we talked about it because Came up over and over at the board meeting on Tuesday, and we so we just talked about it. What I'd like to do is the only way I can do anything is through a deed restriction, but I'd like to come up with what is would be appropriate um given the different types of products, you know, whether it's four building four units per building or six. and try to figure out an answer to that question without doing it here. But I know we're gonna have to address it and I know I need to address it in my deed restriction. I just can't do it on the fly. But I n but
I understand the concern. So
Okay, I'm just predicting you're not gonna get past the Board of County Commissioners to have a commitment in that need restriction.
Correct. And I'm gonna write one. I'm gonna work with my client and write one and and I don't have it today. Um but we know the commissioners it's Stark is not gonna let's get past the easy.
And we're intend on on our south side we're gonna maintain as many trees as we can because we have a lot of depth and there's a lot of existing trees there. Um so we'll retain for our buffer, but I understand then what are we going to plant? I understand the question. And I will absolutely we will actually work something out as for an answer and and propose a deep restriction.
You probably need to get a graphic as to what you intend to do.
Yeah, because I think that's a good thing. When people come in here and they hear fifty five units on there. They're they're gonna they're thinking uh like most people would think. That whole piece of property's gonna be covered with ho with homes.
I wanna make sure that we have a clear picture, meaning when I say we, I mean all of us in this room. have a clear picture of what you're really talking about. You're talking about covering. an acre of land out of twelve acres, that's a lot different picture in my mind. than covering the whole
I think you'd be well served to have an illustration of that
degree.
And I think you uh I think he did say at the outset that you would have Some eight hundred out of the thirteen hundred feet that would be
Uh out of the quarter mile we'll have eight hundred linear feet that are still open.
Basically open and undeveloped.
And we're gonna try to save as many trees as we can. And then the whole thing. Just so kind of defend myself on the town home trees. You have a land development code that's supposed to apply to this utility in district. There are c Board of County Commissioners concerned that's inadequate. It should really be solved in the land development code. That being said I absolutely don't mind us working on a solution to add to our deed restriction to add more than what your land development code requires.
And to be clear, Barbara, I think staff is intending to address in the Land Development Code. I think there's a pending amendment that's going forward. The concern is that You may predate that unless there's something in your deed restriction.
Understood. And that's why I we have no problem doing it. And we've talked about it just you have to do it right. Just like it may take them a little bit of time to write a land development regulation, I have to re write one for this project, so um but I know that's gonna come up with the board and I appreciate you bringing that up.
Because I know it's that's one been one of my pet peeves for many years is that for somebody to go in and just wipe out the trees, you know, and And I you know, I I totally understand. Yeah, the hesitancy of the adjoining residents. Uh, to have that happen. So
absolutely understand.
Try to protect them to this.
And I will work with staff on writing that basically end land development regulation for It's landscaping for our town home project.
Yeah, along those same lines. I mean is there a buffer requirement between The multifamily and the and the PUD to the south.
There
is.
They're oh Brad, sorry, this way. There is. I think it's um
Yeah when we get to the site plan stage and we know where the buildings are actually located. Th there are some standard buffers, but if there are ever any issues with that, we work with the applicants and and discuss those and and we can beef those up if needed. I think they
Yeah, we intend on keeping our natural we have a nat we have a lot of trees now and to the ex It benefits our project, our homes that he's gonna build. to have the natural buffer in between him and the forty seven homes of the South. There's more homes to the south.
Right.
line one after the other, then our Mm-hmm. Because of what you're done on the the impervious that our townhomes will create. So we wanna maintain that buffer. Just as much as they want us to maintain the buffer.
Right. And I and I wanted to reiterate what I was trying to say before is that if we change the zoning here, uh we're not approving fifty five units.
Correct.
The engineering has to approve the fifty how many units they have. Yeah, the engineering might approve Twenty five units, for all I know. All we're uh doing is approving a zoning designation, so Um Well, to be clear, you are approving a maximum of the but
I just y I am understanding your point. They may not get the maximum is what your point.
Right. Because engineering has
a
has a very big bearing on that. So
absolutely.
And I I guess I I got a couple more things. One, I think the statement was made that you do have a current ERP for nineteen units. Okay. And then there was also some statements made about imperbious area if the site was developed as multifamily. Have some I mean, have you guys looked at how many units you think you're gonna get as multifamily? I know fifty five is what you're asking for is the max, but Is there any way to get to that you think you're gonna get twenty five units, forty units, however many you think
you're gonna get? I mean you came up with an impervious area, so I'm assuming you can.
What I'd like to say about that is uh first of all, that's first I heard about trees. I like trees. I don't have a problem working something out on the trees, but this is the first time I've heard about trees. So we'll have something do it.
Barbara attends a lot more commission meetings than you do and she's probably heard this on multiple occasions. I don't
anyway. Um yeah, I d we do have a Swift MUD ERP permit. Our plan is to come in uh uh with a reduction to it to that permit and the amount of s uh impervious area that we have. Uh I have not laid out all the homes. But I intend to do that the t you know proposed townhomes. But I'll do that before the the County Kish Commission meeting. Make it part of the package if we can. Can we do that? So
I I I guess I w I'd go back and then I was I was trying to follow what you were saying about if it's multifamily you're gonna have less impervious area than single family.
Right.
So how did you do that without knowing how many units you're gonna have?
Well I I multiply it by fifty five units. I My t the a typical um townhome unit has about a thousand square feet on the first floor. I'm asking for uh approval of up two fifty five. Um Units, so that's fifty five thousand square of m square feet of a impervious area.
Okay.
As opposed to thirty eight hundred
and I I guess I'm gonna re I'm gonna pr I'm gonna take that and relay that on to a traffic question. Would fifty five multifamily units generate more traffic than nineteen single family homes?
We just followed the county's codes, Mr. Girardi. You know, when we were rezoning this property. I don't do not have a traffic engineer. We followed the the county's code. And I don't have a traffic generation because the code says if I'm rezoning property and it doesn't exceed the trips of the current of the current zoning that I don't do a traffic analysis. So I don't have an answer for you on on the traffic.
I was just trying to relate that. I I know there's that standard for the traffic study and the traffic requirements, but I was just trying to relate that to I mean when you look at how the roads were laid out, it appears to me it's R two zoning, it appears to me they were laid out for a certain number of units. Maybe that's fifty-five. I was just trying to get there.
Yeah, R two is fifty R two staff had said and I calculated as well, because that's we had to h have that for the transportation review, it's fifty-five lots is what R2 the maximum lots allowed under R two is fifty-five.
Yeah, R two is four point six dwelling units per acre. So then you multiply four point six times twelve gross, I know that, and you get fifty five point two.
Okay.
I just want to make sure we've adequately answered your questions. If if we need to go back and do something and come back to Planning Commission I am we are willing to do that. I mean it's very important that we answer your questions and if you feel that we haven't, we are happy to do anything to answer your questions. Um So Just let us know if if you want us to come back with something we haven't answered. What happens to me is it gets to the dais and then I didn't know that you needed something else and And so I just m putting that out there, if you need something
else, please give us the clue that you need something else. If if not, um we'd appreciate your support. Yeah,
I mean per personally for me the big struggle here is is it's it has R2 zoning, it's compatible, it's the same as use as it's the same as is on both sides of the street. Now what complicates it is it backs up to fifty foot lots to the south. Um So that's the right-of-way. It complicates matters, in my opinion.
You think that's not compatible?
Well I uh whether it's compatible or not. And that's that's what I'm saying that complicates matters on whether it's compatible or not.
'Cause that's We're looking at fifty-five units across our whole site and there's forty-seven behind us.
Acknowledged. There's also uh quite a bit of wetlands and and stuff in there too. So mm-hmm.
Okay. Barbica, continue.
Yeah. I for lost my way. I think I've answered all your questions um and gone over the points. That uh we wanted to go over.
Okay, you covered all the questions that were brought up.
I did. We single family homes have more green. We talked about that agnosium about the difference between the impervious between single family detached and single family attached. Um We've talked about traffic. I would point out that there's this project has access ultimately to three signalized intersections. One at LECO and Starkey, one at Heritage and Starkey, one at Saint Lawrence, excuse me, Heritage and Little, one at Saint Lawrence and Little. There is interconnection. um amongst
these different subdivisions to these signalized intersections. So Regarding drainage, you know I I can tell you I've been here before and and listened to the community talk about the county's drainage easement and the fact that it's overgrown. And I stood here years ago and heard about that same drainage easement and I was in a meeting with um your previous one of your previous staff persons who looked at the community and said, I don't care that the county owns it, we're not gonna maintain it. And so I feel like I'm standing here talking about drainage because as
Mr. Poon said, things haven't been maintained. It's really not fair to my client um that things have not been maintained out of his property. But he's going to follow the rules. He's not gonna make it worse and with townhomes he has the ability to make it better.
Yeah, well it's not only not fair to your client, it's not fair to the other people that live there now.
I c absolutely we're all in the same situation. And the county did a stormwater assessment um program and everybody's paid a lot of money into that program and to hear them still to stand here all these years later and to hear that they're still struggling. Um And then to hear that impacting, you know, coming up in my rezoning still Uh I I would hope the county could By Now. maintain but maybe they don't have all the easement, I'm not sure. So
Denise, before this gets to the board or when it gets to the board, can we make sure somebody from Stormwater Is at the hearing to address this.
I I will ensure that. I do want to comment that Will Poon does have some additional comments that he wants to provide on uh stormwater and drainage. Okay.
Okay, Barbara.
Yeah,
I'd like to hear what he says.
Yeah, th thank you. Um against the engineering current planning. Okay, so I just want to clarify though, I mean, the same as about less impervious area and so forth. That that and I think less runoff. That is true. However, that's a separate item from floodplain addressing the floodplain in the flood zone that this parcel is in. So and it and that's based on volume. So that'll be impact based on, you know, amount of fill that encroaches into the floodplain, flood zone area based on the base flood elevation.
So those things has to still be addressed. And the compensate for on site by providing compensatory storage volume on site. So those are two set. As I said at the beginning That you know, those things will affect the design of the ultimate units that will be allowed to be engineered on this property. In addition to that, pre-existing conditions, draining conditions that drain on the site needs to also be addressed. It could be rerouted, however, it's being
addressed, that still needs to be addressed because there's existing off-site drainage onto this site. Therefore, those things that what I'm saying is engineering-wise has to be addressed also. which may impact the ultimate design in the number of units parcel.
We absolutely agree.
question to Brad and Will. So when those stormwater plans and site plans are submitted to the county. What is the typical notification process for any resident that wanted to See what those plans provide. Because My concern is that there's been a lot of discussion how that's deferred to site plan, stormwater plan and this body doesn't decide that issue but My understanding is that there is a notification process when that those plans come in. that these residents could then see and weigh
in on. So What is that process?
Yeah, I'd just like to to clarify a little bit here. Uh the the more regional stormwater issue for all the subdivisions, the stormwater department will will really need to look at that and they'll need to determine that. Uh what we look at at the time of site plan is the project itself, and there are some very specific criteria that the project project we'll need to meet related to stormwater, which uh Barbara summarized really she can't you can't make it worse for your neighbors uh is essentially a pretty good summary of that. So Uh that's what we look at at the time of site plan. When those site
plans are in for review, uh 30 days before uh any approval happens on those, there will be mailed notice to people within 500 feet of the site, same basic distance of the people that received mailed notice. for this hearing, they will get a a notice that those plans are in the process and they can make arrangements to speak to someone at the county or we can coordinate with the applicant for them to speak to the applicant about those plans. So that they will have an opportunity to see what's being proposed.
Okay, thank you.
And we go through double review, as you know. We go through the Swiftman review and the county review. We got to satisfy both entities regarding stormwater.
Mm Barbara, just for clarification, you do have a Swift Mode permit for the nineteen lots, but do you have a county permit? Yes. So there is a county permit in place and a swift moat permit. Yes. So I mean technically tomorrow you could go out there and start construction.
Yes.
Mm-hmm. And it wouldn't go under any other further review.
Okay.
Any other questions I can answer?
School came up. Mm. People indicated that the traffic was
uh uh difficult to drop students off at the schools and to pick up due to traffic. Uh I talked to uh an individual who was with the school board. He indicated that uh there would be no problem with adding additional students to the schools in that area.
That's my understanding as well.
Well can
we get some clarification from Mr. Tanell because I think the school that was described was Starkey K through eight. Yeah. And I don't think we think this land is zoned for Starkey K three.
Okay.
Whatever issue that is, I mean, this this property will not affect him.
So I wanna clear the school issue up.
Okay. You know, since this is up, I'll make a comment on that. If you do fifty five single family attached, it's gonna Have ten element ten elementary school school students, six middle and seven high school, by going to Single family attached, which are townhomes, you're going to reduce From ten elementary to five. From sixth middle school to three and from seventh high school to three. To three. So actually this type of product reduces the impact on the school district. from single family detached. That's a typical
House with a lot. That data is based on the information that we have from our h system countywide, so it's it's It's true. If there's anybody that doubts it, we have you know you can look at our numbers.
Hey I let me ask my other questions. I only got two more to go, please. Um Well, Traffic in the area. Um and flooding in the area. Those are gonna be consistent throughout Pasco County in my opinion. Except basically
No, I agree. I agree. We have to I mean m Mr. Poon has gone through what the kind of review we're gonna have to go through for for um our project. Um yes, clearly there is historic flooding and issues regarding the project, but we can't make it worse. In traffic we have to pay mobility fees just like we have to pay school impact fees and park fees. Some of these older units didn't pay some of those fees but um but we have to pay all those fees.
And flooding on the west side of the county from what I have seen and read in newspapers is almost
I was gonna use the example of uh no poor ch poor choice is a gambling. And now and now the just gonna use the but
But in the west side of the county is is uh an issue. Up and down from Holiday to uh Hudson. Is that that a lot of things?
There are quite a few areas, Trinity, this area, um up off of Ridge Road, north side of Ridge Road, I think there's issues.
And on the before I leave sidewalks. I understand from one young lady she is the president of the HOA there. Perhaps the HOA could could get with their community and maybe uh in uh install sidewalks if that's the right term to use. Because you're gonna have some for your area, but I would throw that out there. Sidewalks in newer communities are installed as part of a Hey uh Pascoal kind of code I believe. So I I I commend you on putting sidewalks in. At least it's for a a short area, so and
that's
all I have. Now we've as you said, Mr. Hansel, we you have
the some of the parts of the sub some parts of the s sub overall communities have been uh built. Um you rec you require a lot more infrastructure and so and a and a much more stringent review. And we will follow all those things.
Okay, any other questions?
Not so much a question. I had I wanted to ask Denise if she had a can put the layers on for the flood zone for that area. Because I think it's a good perspective that's not a good thing. This whole area is a flood zone.
Just give me a second.
Okay, thank you.
Thank you very much.
Piers.
The whole area is in that phone.
Here's our parcel thing.
Everything blue is in a flood zone.
So the entire area is in a float zone, that's accurate.
Okay, any more questions for Barbara?
Thank you.
Thank you, Barbara.
All right. Any questions for staff, please?
Denise, just real quick, is there any limitation on M F two or M F one cannot restrict like the the unit size has to be a certain width, can it? I mean it's just whatever the market to Can handle.
That that's correct. I mean of course, you know, we're talking about deed restrictions, so
Any other questions for staff?
Well I have one more question for Denise or Brad. So On the issue of the trees Is the land development? code developed to a point where We could simply insert The new code requirement into the need restriction or does it require something more D two I've and
I I think it's and and please uh defer to Brad if if I'm not stating the correct thing, but I believe it's fairly well developed at this point. So I think we can include the language.
The the language is is pretty well developed in that regard, uh but we've actually done this on other projects that have come through recently, so we actually have some language that we can we can provide. So it will Well
I dn didn't hear Barbara agr specifically agree to that language, but I I'm just wondering Because Barbara asked is there something that we haven't seen And we haven't really seen whatever this language is. So
Um Mm-hmm. I guess the question would I guess really it's a question for the Planning Commission. Are they comfortable with this moving forward without knowing what that language is if it's not gonna mirror whatever the new code says. And that's a question for you all, not me.
We are very agreeable regarding the trees. We have two hundred foot of depth to develop with here. If you want me to work on deed restrictions and come back in a couple of weeks, I can do that. If and we can answer the question about a minimum lot size and how that works with the MF1 zoning district. Um
I I uh I think there are are enough questions that we could probably I mean I think maybe a continuance might be i i in order. Because I don't think I think there are some things that we're going to do. that are in our purview that we just need to make sure they're answered properly and comfortably. There's a few things I feel uncomfortable about. Uh obviously there's some things that other board members feel and I don't really want to force this board into a position where they have to make a vote. Without
feeling comfortable with their decision. So I'm open to any motion, of course. It's not not up to me. But um Uh it be my recommendation that as a board we strongly consider a continuance.
I I would echo the Chairman's
sentiments.
Oh, is that a motion?
That's a motion.
I
second. of a motion and then we have a second. Any further Denise is
looking for the date here. Do you need a date, Denise?
And so we're going to be doing this to a hearing that's open on this side. Is that accurate?
Yeah, we we don't want people to have to drive to Dade City, yeah.
Just making certain. Okay. So do we want to have a month continuance? Is that the case?
I think that's appropriate. I think you have to if you want to come back here.
Yeah, but we'd we'd like two weeks but we understand it needs to be back here.
Yeah, so September um let's see, September thirtieth is the next hearing that's over on this side for the planning commission.
It's already Aug August twenty sixth, so that we understand.
Yeah, because September ninth it's a new end date city of the Planning Commission.
We understand the need to have it over here. And that will delay us two more weeks than we'd normally want, but we understand.
Denise if you can have somebody from Stormwater available, I think that will definitely help.
Yes, I was actually making arrangements for that as you were discussing the continuance.
You're always way ahead of us. Yeah.
All right.
Great. Thank you, Barbara. Okay, so we have a motion and we have a second. Any further discussion of the motion?
If not, all
in favor signify by saying aye.
Help me understand why we would want somebody from Stormwater here when we saw the map. that indicated the whole entire area is a flood zone.
I could tell you why, because we've heard allegations that the county is has a Drainage ditch out there that potentially could address the flooding and it's not being maintained. I'd like to know why. Right. More than just me. I think others would like to know. Is there is there a solution to the existing flooding conditions that are out there?
And and personally my biggest concern is the frequency of flooding that's experienced out there. Um I mean it it's not the flood map you saw was the hundred year floodplain. Yeah. Okay. I I've I've personally been out there almost on a weekly these days almost a weekly or every other week basis when there's water up in the streets out of the ditches. um and the and the roads are impassable. So that's why I I'd just like to hear is there a solution to that? And and is there anything that can be done?
I mean 'cause if the solution is creating additional storage, the county has land in that area to create additional storage. But We've been previously told that that's not the solution, that it's a maintenance issue. So I'd like to hear what what their an if that's still their answer, I'd like to know I'd like to hear it from them. Yeah, if we if we can solve it, let's solve it.
So Okay. Anything else, Pete? Uh
Ch Chairman Gray, this is might I speak again, Chairman Gray? This is Will P.
I
suppose.
I'll keep it short, sir. I probably I I don't want to just focus just on the the the the county. I like I said earlier, it's a collaborative effort to include the exist system within this the subdivisions also. That needs to be maintained too, because it's all interconnected. Right. So therefore I think there needs to be maintenance also within the residential subdivisions in their own stormwater.
So I I I wanna just make sure that you include those. Entities
also. Yeah, I think we tr we're trying to get a buy in everybody to participate in a solution.
And w Will I wasn't disagreeing with you. I'm just saying that I think I mean you admitted that your your responsibility is review of this particular plan, it's not solving the regional drainage issue. So we need to hear from Stormwater what their potential solution is to the regional issue. That's why we want them here.
Yes, sir. Yeah, I I don't disagree with you. I just it's not what yeah, it's it's a collaborate effort by everybody. I just want to make sure. Thank you. Thank you
well.
Okay. I think we have everything on the table so We have a motion and a second. All in favor of the motion signify by saying aye. Aye. Aye. Opposed, like sign. Okay, motion's carried. It's continued. For one month. Rough really.
Yes, so much.
We still have one item to go.
That was a
supermarket.
Oh she can either tippy concerned drift now or she's gonna have to do anything for it anyway.
I think they'd
be well
served showing an in
the
footprint.
Is this next one gonna be quicker? Okay, we have uh
we have one more to address, so if everybody would please move quietly to the outside and talk out there.
It would definitely for when it goes in front of the metro. Yeah.
Okay, you have the con.